Transcripts For CSPAN3 Nunn-Lugar Act 25th Anniversary 20170123

Of cooperative storage, dismantling and destruction of soviet nuclear and chemical weapons. Next, former senators sam nunn and Richard Lugar mark the 25th anniversary of the initiative in the historic county caucus room on capitol hill. This one hour and 15 minute discussion and awards ceremony was cohosted by the National Security archive. The Carnegie Corporation, the Carnegie Endowment and the Nuclear Threat initiative. Ladies and gentlemen, i am honored to be one of the organizers of today. This is the day 25 years ago that president George H W Bush signed the nunnlugar legislation into law. Fetishists, we scoured the bush library for the photographs of that extraordinary moment and none exist. There was not even a signing ceremony which gives you a sense of the kind of mixed opinion inside the Bush Administration about this Congressional Initiative in foreign policy. But the judgment of history is in. Calledll street journal the nunnlugar legislation one of the most prescient pieces of legislation ever. On the National Security website, you can see the declassified documents and the them showing the real danger of that time. It is the first ever declassified list of a 3429 soviet Strategic Nuclear warheads that were outside the boundaries of russia at the end of the soviet union. Securingthem up, Nuclear Weapons, cleaning up the legacies of the cold war arms is a that was and still rote task carried out by russians, americans, and many others. Many of those heroes are here with us. Not the least is Richard Lugar and sam nunn. You have their biographies and many others in your program. Others were not able to be here but send their greetings. One is in the hospital this month recovering from surgery. But also greetings from friends and colleagues like ash carter. Many heroes. Our thanks also to john cornyn, the majority leader of the senate, who secured this room for us. He is a champion of the freedom of information act and one of our close allies in opening the u. S. Government. And i want to thank him for that. Thank our project director and all of those who made the work bringing this usable history to the present. We really appreciate the Nuclear Threat initiative and it is a fantastic organization. ,y thanks to the lugar center which continues the tremendous leadership and most of all, i need to thank the Carnegie Corporation of new york. Carnegies visionary funding in the 1980s created, built the research on preventing nuclear war and methods of cooperative security that gave rise to the nunnlugar idea. The Carnegie Corporation was present at the very first meetings when the legislation took shape. And carnegie is with us today , not just david, the incredible president , they are with us today supporting this effort to understand what we did right and wrong and bring that history to mutualwe can build security in todays dangerous world. So it is a particular honor for the doctor introduce to bring the nunnlugar award to like. Light. [applause] thank you very much. I have the easiest job. I have to introduce to the people who need no introduction. I am not going to introduce the others. But i want to tell you that this i feel at home here. , thehese organizations Nuclear Threat initiative, archives, Carnegie Endowment, all of them are grantees of Carnegie Corporation. But most importantly of all, usually successors do not normally give credit to their predecessor. I want to give credit to the only one who started this. Without david hamburg, this would not have happened. So thank you, david, for being here. [applause] last, but not least, Andrew Carnegie was against war and he thought that war was not necessary. There is plenty of competition and opportunity available for everyone. He labeled war the foulest blight that ever disgraced the earth. His ambition was to eradicate war and force all conflicts into arbitration. Therefore, he founded the Carnegie Corporation of new york, the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace, international affairs. It is my delight and pleasure to introduce a distinguished social scientist who has done so much on Nuclear Nonproliferation. The Vice President of Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who will say a few words for others pursuing this with great effort. Thank you. [applause] i have learned that it is the fools errand to try to follow him. I will be brief adding the knowledge and he made to dr. Hamburg and others and others here in the room. Bill burns cannot be here today but sends his regards and respect to all of those, especially the honorees. That i remember when the legislation was passed. I was working in this building for senator biden. As i was thinking about it ,oming over, in particular senators nunn and lugar, i was thinking about the exemplars you were and remain of integrity and commitment to ascertain facts , to understand deepseated challenges in a bipartisan way and internationally cooperative way. Leadershipm and your were exemplary, and i think all of us now are hoping Something Like that to be rekindled as we go forward, as we are a little worried perhaps that may not be the case. Grateful to you all for being here and for making this happen. The Carnegie Corporation honor whichthis comes with a 60,000 award for two individuals. In the past, the founding offer was made to none other than did lugar and sam nunn. Later, the other . I forget now. Today, two other important individuals. But i want to tell you that we were given four minutes and we have spoken only three minutes. We have saved one minute for the panel. Im going to introduce steve, who is here from the Carnegie Corporation handling our projects. Onthe other working universities could not be here. I would like to give a hand to steve, who is doing real work here. [applause] with that, thank you very much. Senator nunn, i believe you have a citation perhaps to read and then we will have senator lugar read his citation, and then we will turn the Panel Discussion. I think there were remarks by both and then David Hoffman will take control of proceedings. Thank you, tom blanton. You and your team have done a tremendous job looking at the history of the nunnlugar program. I am sure we will be surprised with a lot of things that are there. You have done it all legally without any leaks. These days, that is significant. I am delighted to be here. Tois a wonderful privilege be able to say thank you to so many people in this audience who have played such a big role in this history of the nunnlugar program. It is a great honor to be with carnegie, the whole team have done a tremendous job. Not only did you have the analytical studies done that me tod dick lugar and convince the senate to pass this in december of 1991, but when i first came up with this idea of doing something, i was in budapest at a conference. My friend left when gorbachev was taken captive. He went straight back to the soviet union and called me after gorbachev was released and asked me to come. I spent five or six fascinating days. That is when it became apparent to me we had to take action. Carnegie played a huge role to all the way. On you to bestow this award me is indeedd tremendous thing for carnegie to do. I have often said that the downside is that, like his wife, when i partnered with him, i had to give up my last name in many parts of the world. That is the only downside of being a partner with dick lugar. It is my great honor today to be award toresent this general maslin. Appropriate he received the award. General maslin has had surgery and could not be here. But this general has played a huge and constructive role in u. S. And russian relations and the management of the Nuclear Arsenal. He headed the Russian Strategic [indiscernible] also provided strong leadership [indiscernible] he will be accepting the award on behalf of general maslin. General maslin served in the soviet and russian ministries of defense for over 40 years. He was commander of the 12 main directorate russian general 199297 acting as the authority responsible for all aspects of munitions security. In 1993 when Boris Yeltsin ordered military forces into the parliamentary building, russia and former soviet republics were in a volatile state of upheaval. Ever vigilant, the general conducted aggressive testing of the Nuclear Emergency Response Program throughout russia, ensuring any terrorist aggression would be countered by exhaustive safeguards and ironclad preparation. Forabsolute accountability the testing, transport, storage, protection, dismantlement, and repatriation of every single Nuclear Warhead for the duration of its service life cannot be overstated. His comprehensive expertise were his terminal and successfully transferring Nuclear Warheads to russia and from the ukraine. The general provided compelling support for the disarmament mission in the 1990s. Although he stepped down from his official post in 1997, his commitment to Nuclear Nonproliferation has been unwavering. As one of the worlds leading authorities on Nuclear Security, verification, and reduction, his contribution to the cause is immeasurable even continuing , today. He is an executive board member of the senator for policy studies in russia, a director of the Conversion Group of companies, and advisor to the center for energy and security studies. He has authored several publications on Nuclear Nonproliferation, security, and the Threat Reduction program. Tot recently adding his book his acclaimed roster. His accomplishments have been acknowledged with governmental honors, including the order of the red star and order for service to the fatherland. Today we give tribute to this , distinguished leader and the russiasorce behind international Nuclear Nonproliferation effort. We honor his expertise, service, wisdom, conscience, and integrity. We are eternally indebted to his remarkable ability to perform literally with grace under fire. It is a great privilege and honor to present the third annual nunnlugar award promoting Nuclear Security to colonel general maslin. [applause] accidents happen, which is why we must be careful with the Nuclear Arsenal. [laughter] [speaking russian] the process within the Program Helps solve pressing tasks in the sphere of Nuclear Security and protection in russia and also helps develop andext between the military the representatives of the Nuclear Industry in both of the countries. This year is also the 20th anniversary since the last Nuclear Warheads were withdrawn from ukraine and belarus, that stayed there after the dissolution of the soviet union, which cleared the way for these kazakhstan to as o join the treaty on the nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons as nonnuclear states. The technical means of securing weapons and materials provided with this program played a role in solving this task. It would not be exaggeration if i say in terms of its importance to peace and security, the collective work within the framework of the nunnlugar programs especially in the early , years, is comparable to the military and Economic Cooperation between moscow and washington during world war ii. Let me express my gratitude and appreciation for their work. I would like to note that i see this award as praise for the work of all Russian Military representwho serviceman who participated directly in the project of the destruction of Nuclear Warheads, ballistic missiles, nuclear submarines, and chemical weapons. Sure russia could have carried , these tasks out on their own, like the soviet union did create and test the atomic bomb in 1949, just after world war ii, but it would have taken more time. It would have increased the dangers of environmental catastrophe and would have demanded colossal expenses. That is why thanks to the efforts of both sides, there was we were able to do this in a short timeframe. In the new year, new opportunities will open up for reviving relations between the countries. In my view, one of the priority tasks would be the creation of a joint mechanism to prevent accidents in the air and on the high seas. Let me express that hope that these opportunities will be used effectively. In human history, russia and the United States have never been at war with each other. [speaking russian] [applause] [speaking russian] it is now my privilege to give an award to a great man. As has oftenay been said already today, we owe a great deal to Carnegie Corporation for wonderful ideas. Owe a lot to those who Carry Forward those ideas and i appreciate my partner, sam nunn, who was conducting hearings and looking for partners who may be helpful. I appreciate especially even five years before that, president Ronald Reagan asking 16 members of the senate to go to geneva, switzerland. There were eight republicans and eight democrats. President reagan knew that not only was bipartisanship important but that you needed two thirds majority to pass a treaty. It turned out that 1986 was not the time for the arms control treaty we anticipated. Time went by until this year of 1991 we celebrate today. That it has been suggested pardon me. On this day of december 12 of ago, thattly 25 years there may not have been enormous enthusiasm in the white house in signing the legislation. As a matter of fact, sam and i found out fairly rapidly that there were some who felt that we had overstepped our balance altogether. That the president of the united deals was the person that with the grave situations of this sort, or the secretary of defense or secretaries of the secretary of state. To have two senators putting together a coalition of senators and passing legislation of this seemed upsetting. It is reassuring to be here today with bill perry and to see david hamburg here, andy weber, ash carter was on the trip. We took a plane trip back to russia, ukraine, and belarus in april of the next year. And we all got religion together. We saw the problems that were faced by the former soviet union and now by the states that two weeks after the signature of the nunnlugar bill had divided into 15 countries and four very Large Nuclear powers. Action did not occur right away. Some would point out that the first 800 million or so that was appropriated by the congress is that it resulted in only about 50 million in expenditures. It was not easy to get underway. This is why it is so important today that we recognize those who really helped to get it underway, who knew the nittygritty of the problems , who were with us on our trips to russia, ukraine, belarus, kazakhstan, and other countries. So, it is a real privilege to be you, soay with all of many who have played such an Important Role in russia and the program ands in the all that followed. Specifically, it is my privilege to recognize bill perry. I will start by saying William Perrys extraordinary career began in 1947 when he joined the army corps of engineers at the age of 18 to then he moved on to the Army Occupation in japan. His efforts in the reserve officer Training Corps earned him the rank of second lieutenant. After his time in the army, the secretary perry became one of the original Silicon Valley pioneers, further broadening his knowledge of technology. Mathematician, his original specialization in digital and reconnaissance systems caught the attention of u. S. Government officials who sought his counsel most important leader and during the cuban missile crisis. In subsequent years, he applied his expertise to business and entrepreneurial initiatives. By 1977 as the undersecretary of defense for research and engineering secretary perry , brought the United States military into the stealth area. Now equipped with smart weapons and g. P. S. , American Forces were prepared to stand tall in the face of adversaries. In 1994, secretary perry became the 19th secretary of defense and the first enlisted man to serve in that role. With a range of expertise drawing from his experience as a and his time in the highest ranks of the pentagon, he was instrumental in the dismantlement of 8000 Nuclear Warheads, 4000 in the United States and 4000 in russia. Throughout his career, he has devoted himself to protecting our nations interests. His book chronicles his endeavors with equal measures of eloquence and starving alarm. He continues to generously share his wisdom with the next generation of nonproliferation advocates. His commitment to the cause is steadfast and unstoppable. Secretary perry has received countless awards and decorations from heads of state around the world. Ironically, it is his thorough understanding of war that makes him todays consummate peacekeeper. His Visionary Leadership has been highly beneficial in the objectives of the nunnlugar mission. It is a real privilege to present the third annual nunnlugar award for promoting Nuclear Security to secretary william perry. Congratulations. [applause] thank you. Say how pleased i am to see so many longterm friends here today. Of thosecially proud who are all in my opinion great americans. I also want to acknowledge the of thedinary actions team who implemented the nunnlugar program. I see two of them here today. I see gloria duffy, susan cook. There may be others, but i see those two. As cnns his tour as secretary of defense. I just want to make a few very brief comments about, to me, problem, whiche is the deterioration of relations between the United States and russia today. When the cold war ended, we had a brief, shining moment, a brief shining moment that was possible to conceive that the United States and russia could become not only friend but possibly allies. Believedof us actually that was going to be possible and work to try to make it happen. We started in that direction. The first time i invited the Russian Defense minister to a nato defense ministers meeting and just to make sure he got to the point he felt welcome, i invited them to a meeting with the defense ministers the night before, which was a warm, warm gathering. Anything at that time seemed possible. On, when confronted with the problem of implementing the i had to advise them, i soon found out it was easier to advise that it is to implement. It was a tough program to implement. We had this Extraordinary Team to do it. But we could not have done it without very close cooperation from russia and from ukraine. I still remember the last meeting when the last warhead had been dismantled. Minister,ian defense the Russian Defense minister, and the American Defense anister all post for a picture with the threeway handshake. Its very hard to imagine that today, but thats where we were in 1996. Vividlyecall negotiating with the Russian Defense minister the participation with the Peace Enforcement operation in bosnia where america sent troops and russia wanted to send a brigade of troops in. France and germany and other your pin countries were sending troops in a we insisted it be a unified command, unlike what we have in syria today. After long and intense negotiations, we ended up with a russian brigade working with and under the direction of a Major General in command and, after that works so well, that after the third month of their anding together, i went presented the russian general a medal for having the most effective brigade in bosnia. There was a shining moment when this seems to be working. This is not a time for a litany of what caused us to go down so discouraging lenny discouragingly, but the conclusion i have come to is that it can and has happened and, if we cannot find a way to resolve, we have key issues with a strong desire to prevent nuclear peripheral and nuclear proliferation. Certainly a Nuclear Terror bomb is is apt to go off and moscow as it is in washington dc, and certainly, our countries working together would be an effective way of reducing probability of catastrophes happening. Many people say it is impossible to Work Together because of issues that separate us and i want to refer to the fact that i have had training in mathematics and, there is a technique known as the separation of variables. So, our diplomats have to find a way to separate problems we can agree on from problems we cannot agree on and it is important that we Work Together. Separation of variables will work in diplomacy and of mathematics. Thank you. [applause] all right. Thank you. Now, we will try to have a Panel Discussion to revisit some of these issues and lift our spirits a little bit, but i would like to begin with a reminder that, in 1991 and 1992, the senators took a gamble with history and there were skeptics who said it would be best to let the soviet union drown in sorrow and officials said that the union should be left to freefall. Senators nunn and lugar did not agree and helped them cope with the inheritance from hell. This was the most successful Congressional Initiative since the Marshall Plan and i would like to ask for this panel to start off with inclusion of the political mood and the American People not interested in another Program Helping an adversary and they had a cold war sensibility about security and did not understand that what happens over there could affect us. How did you make it work . How do we get it to work again . The answer is, to begin with, we did not make it work. A partnership was formed with the authorization bill and we had already past those bills and went to the soviet union, which was collapsing. We took the authorization and conference report. We thought we could persuade our colleagues that this was urgent. As they said, they were in the framework that this was the enemy and why should we help . We had to pull off the opposition bill and take it back to the conference and go with the authorization bill. We passed it persuading senator robert byrd that it was urgent and he cut it to 400 million, but we were grateful to get that and it was an authorization, not a mandate. We had two or three very important factors. By ashk had been done carter, bill perry and others. It was analytical. To jointed dig lugar in. He brought republicans to the roundtable in my office where we met over and over again and we persuaded people and went from september to december and we were able to persuade a vast of the senate that was in their interest. It was in our interest and the soviets interest. That was the way it happened. We turned around the sentiment in 2. 5 months in the era where people let facts lead to conclusions. That does not always exists today. That is the history of its and we worked really hard on this at that stage and to the people in this room, it is easier to pass legislation then implement. It would not have been a Successful Program without an awful lot of folks in this room and other places that really made it work. A lot of those people were in russia and a number of those people were in cause asked on. A number were in ukraine and a number in belarus. I would like to see tom blanton do an honor roll of people who felt that this was implemented. That is the way this came about. I remember in february or march after we passed this legislation, we went and travel to each of these countries and talked to the leaders there about what was coming and what to expect. And why was important to their countries to fully cooperate. It was the implementation and the legislation. It was not easy and it was done on a bipartisan basis. The analysis that was furnished was absolutely key. Lugar, share with us you joining sam and what made this so urgent. What did you see . I was a student of this subject and i observed his work and admired it. We had been together in geneva and i got to know him well, at that time. We went over to the russian consulate. And we got to meet some russians. I cannot cite all the russians we talked to in the next five years, but there were quite a number. Frequently we went abroad and we went to rush on summit some occasions. We became acquainted with the. Ituation in russia difficulties were coming, so it was not a total surprise when 1921 came along the trail. I stress as sam did the importance of what occurred then was in part political, apart from technical. The dilemma that we faced, sam has described that there were a great number of senators and they said not a dime for the russians. That is ridiculous to even be considered and this is a strongly felt sentiment by many of their constituents. The sentiment did not go away. After nunnlugar past, we had an appropriation bill to face every year to come up with the 500 million or thereabouts that would be required. The first two years, we had 50 million spent on implementation and i mention this and, for all this went on for 20 years. It was not a oneyear situation. For all the warheads to be taken down, the Safety Measures and so forth, there are new ideas and it came aboard and has not been there since the beginning. Each one had a vote on what had to be that with. It was also important that we had opportunities to travel and to visit russia and ukraine. And to get to know a lot of people in those countries throughout the years. In two in addition to countries in europe and asia that were effected by all of this, we came up against the time in the senate in which some senators and members of the tose said im not even going get a pass for it. It became almost a matter of pride that you were not involved abroad, and we continue to face some of that. I mention that because as we reach out today in our understanding as we talk about russia and United States relations or any other, we will have to find members who share this enthusiasm and the vision here and elsewhere. Let me tell just one final story, finally. Of 1992, inection which president bush, who had of 1991, and two weeks later, the soviet union came apart. Bush lost the election to bill clinton. Sam and i went over to russia after that and we saw the russian leadership and the leadership said, in no uncertain terms, they were prepared to what they would do to ukraine if it did not give up its weapons and i am not trying to , repeat the translation of the profanity that came. Sam and i went and saw the president and there was an opportunity to review this and we went to a dinner when we got here and there were a few people in the room. I leaned over and said the United States is prepared to spend 100 million to get rid of Nuclear Weapons. There is the legislature and the ukraine with the thirdlargest Nuclear Power the world and he understood the separations oft occurred and the dangers having that around. He was so excited by that thought that he grabbed sam and me, took us outside to the hallway with a press corps and it amounted in that day to to reporters. Said that senator lugar has just made an exciting proposal for ukraine. He has offered us 102 million for our Nuclear Weapons. I hope i do not betray sam. On the way back, sam said something to the effective, where did he get such a crazy idea . I got back to washington and went down to the white house and president bush was somewhat disconsolate over his loss and he was willing to see me. We visited about the whole letters and he wrote a stating 150 million. Ultimately i suspect, and others in the room a know this better than i do, we may have spent 750 million and it may have been more than that because this was a huge job that went on for years. Nevertheless, he remembers it that way and i remember the fact that we were privileged in russia and ukraine. We believed we could persuade others, back in washington whether at the president ial level or the senate level. I hope this situation will repeat itself now. Thank you. This example shows what we have all seen. The program was not onesided. The entire history requires two partners and two sides and, for the signing moment, they worked together. Without i would like to introduce the general who i have known for many years and he was kind to review one of my books in russia recently. Thank you. I want to hear your perspective on what youve heard today on the origins, what it looked like from moscow. Thank you. I will share my ideas. Today, i believe, it is very important to stress the following circumstances and they thanks to the efforts that were undertaken by senators nunn and lugar for the soviet Nuclear Threat and the world was save from the disintegration of the huge Nuclear Arsenal remaining after the soviet union broke apart and fell apart. At the time, the threat was quite realistic. The soviet Nuclear Weapons were staying in the territories in cause it style and the ukraine. In kaz expand and you grain. Ukraine. The fact that these weapons could be stopped was largely due to the assistance provided by the United States and the program, the nunnlugar program. Not just russia, but to a number of other newly formed postsoviet states. Exactly that, im certain, was the Historic Mission of the nunnlugar program. Its successful implementation was assisted by the close cooperation between the department of defense of the United States and russia, the effectiveness of which was proven by the prestigious awards given to the general and mr. Perry. I would like to stress that the program went on for two decades and the extension expired on the nunnlugar program on june 14, 2014. Russia and the United States signed an agreement on the multilateral and Environmental Program and the protocol of the government on this framework. The new american documents had more topics and it allows the joint air force and the reduction of nuclear materials. It addresses the related environmental problems. Also encouraging was the Nuclear Laboratories and the respective agreement signed, but unfortunately not everything i have so far enumerated could be transformed to life. The problem is the rapid deterioration of russian relations because of the ukraine and the sanctions. As history teaches, a crisis between our countries is a hope for a successful experience that will be used in full to renew the cooperation between russia and the United States. To reduce the Nuclear Threats and threats from other weapons of mass destruction and i hope that these times will arrive soon and that is all i have to say. Thank you for your time. Can i add one other point here . In 1994, sitting around this table, we had Charlie Curtis in the audience and we were getting more opposition on why we continue to fund this and we got together and said that it was worth the effort to pass a subsequent piece of legislation and pete was an important part of that. It explained an address to the problem of Nuclear Terrorism and we had the nunnlugar bill that was the first act that would get local and state officials in on terrorism. That helped reinforce an awful lot in terms of understanding out there in the countryside why the Nunn Lugar Program was important to americas security. The program that came out of that, Pete Domenici had a huge programencouraging the with the help of his russian colleagues. That is another important part. Secretary, help us understand what works and i detected some thoughts about where we ought to go now. Where do we go . We did get rid of weapons. The first week that ash and i met in february 1993, we agreed that this would be our top priority to get them out there. We didnt know what the second term was going to be and if the funding would continue. We didnt know what was going to happen in the ukraine and russia. We wanted to get them all out during the first term, which we were able to do. The first big shock i had was that we didnt have any money. One of the big tasks i had was redirecting other programs, the funding for other programs to this program in 1993. It was unpleasant. But, thereafter, we got the full funding from the senate and that made that easier. I was expecting opposition or lukewarm support in the ukraine and that did not happen. Not only did we get support, we got enthusiastic support from almost everybody we worked with over there in the ministries, in the military, right down to the field. Dealing with the officers of the Strategic Rocket forces that were about to be put out of a job. But everybody seemed to understand what we were doing and that was one of the biggest surprises on the day when we got that kind of support. Have told you about the problems within the congress, but after that first year, that was no problem for me. Whatever problems there were, they were taken care of and we would get to the appropriation and the number one surprise was the absolutely enthusiastic support, all the people that work for us in the program, all the people we had to work within russia and theine, they all understood cosmic significance of what we were doing and they all got behind it magnificently. I think a big question that has occurred to us throughout the project has been what reusable history is there in those last 25 years . You all,if i could ask suppose you had to write a handbook with the policymakers and the implementers who will face the next nuclear crisis, what is the lesson you would put on the front page of that handbook from 25 years of experience . Im not going to say what country or time to crisis will be in, but suppose it happens soon, people want to know, what did we learn . What would you tell them . We learned a lot over the course of the cold war about red lines and where redlines should be drawn, and exercising forces and discussing nuclear equations, in terms of threatening nuclear. That is extremely dangerous because the people on the Warning Systems, they look at the atmosphere when theyre trying to judge whether something is an atmosphere or mistake or miss reading data or whether it is really an attack. Another thing we have learned but we have not cured is the danger of hairtrigger alerts and having so many weapons on alert that could be fired very rapidly. But most of what ive taken away the insane would be most applicable saying it would be most applicable with our disagreements with russia over syria and the middle east as well as ukraine is that we are not having anywhere near the accountability and military discussions we had back in the cold war. The got to renew military to military discussions and people said how can you do that were disagreeing over ukraine . How can you not do it when youre flying ships and planes near each other, when you have a and weof escalation Nuclear Rhetoric is being thrown around . I would say resume military to military communications. Chiefsirman of the joint should be talking to his counterparts, the head of our nato military forces should talk to his counter parts. The got to do that, weve got to resume military to military communications. It is not macho nor wise to cut off communication because of disagreements. That is the time you need to communicate. ,e have a russian u. S. Nato russian council. Bill perry started it. Good idea, but both in response to georgia, which was a serious problem and in response to ukraine, nato and russia took the position that we wont communicate. Why do you have it if you are not going to communicate in a crisis . While we are trying now to figure out, or least we should be trying to figure out where to draw redlines in the cyber. Everyday we have headlines on the cyber comic using russians of interfering with u. S. Elections, etc. Its apparent that other powers in the world have not developed understandings and redlines in the cyber area. Weve got to do that. Weve got to talk to do that. I think it would be the supreme irony if while we have not developed redlines in the cyber with which can interact Warning Systems and so forth, while we are not developing redlines in the cyber area, we seem to be forgetting the redlines weve already learned in the nuclear area. How down is that . It doesnt make sense and is not in the interest of our security or u. S. Are Russian Security or world security. Those are just a few of the observations i think we need to hopefully make progress on. Agenda. Is a big victor, how does it look from . Moscow . . What do you think of those suggestions . Opinionl tell you my about the situation between russia and the United States. The main danger as i see it is that we are starting to lose mutual trust between the military. There was a period of cooperation under the nunnlugar program, and it was a Successful Program. And it was based on mutual trust. This gave us an opportunity to remove many obstacles standing in the way of this program. Today, this mutual trust is being gradually lost. Just because, as sam nunn has just said, when there is no cooperation, there is no trust. Indeed, we have a lot of disagreements. However, these disagreements may be resolved only on the basis of cooperation. I fully support sam nunn in that we should restart close cooperation between the military. In this case, we will be able to find means and ways of overcoming whatever problems that keep arising in military incidents. I am convinced that if military cooperation was in forest lets take if military cooperation was enforced lets take the example of syria we would have found a chance to use our mutual efforts to reduce the threat that comes from the socalled islamic state. We would have found opportunities to agree on Corporation Cooperation aimed at meeting the interests of both the Syrian Opposition and the current government of syria. And the example of the nunnlugar program tells us that when we have cooperation, we can solve such an important issue as Nuclear Security in this period of the early 1990s. I believe the time will come when we realize that such cooperation must be resumed. Thank you. [applause] mr. Hoffman dick, do you have thoughts about lessons for the next generation . Mr. Lugar i recall in 2012 that viktor said the nunnlugar program was coming to an end and russia. I went to see the foreign office. There was talk about several ways we could extend it. That was not the case with military, and as a matter of fact, the feeling on the part although i did not see president clinton at the time president putin at the time is that they were tired of seeing americans prowling around russia. Furthermore, they had gotten oil money at this time. They did not need the 400 million a year or whatever it was that we were sending. As a result, i tried another tack. I had a press conference, well attended by the Russian Press and likewise by the New York Times and reuters and so forth. I said, we have had cooperation together when it really counted. We have both got a problem with the chemical weapons of syria. I suggest that we come together and go after those and get rid of them. This was something we could be helpful to the safety of russians and the safety of the world. I heard not much more about it for quite a while, because as you recall, there did come a day when president Vladimir Putin indicated they would have a program about syrian chemical weapons. Kenny myers was very instrumental in trying to think through methods of how you extract chemical weapons from all sorts of places in syria, get them out to ships so they can be destroyed and so forth. At that point, a whole group of russians from the Russian Press corps in washington came to my office at lugar center. They started out by saying, are you pleased your idea was taken . I said, it was president Vladimir Putins idea. He is the one who made the possibility. The fact is, there are ways in which we can bring about cooperation and sometimes not through regular direct negotiations, since these are difficult for the time being but indirectly. Russia and the United States both need to, with regard to all of the bits and pieces of nuclear, chemical, or biological materials left on this earth with the Nuclear Threat initiative under sams leadership, they really went after this and published a remarkable publication that goes country by country as to who has what at this point. It illustrates how many countries have either shipped back their stuff to russia or to the United States. And we have destroyed it in both cases. The world is a lot safer because of this. We could do a lot more of it. Whether we have conferences about this specifically, there are ways, clearly, in terms of public communication, in which we can hope to get the job done. I complement president obama on having the summits each year in washington in which people have talked about ridding the world of materials of last instruction. Unfortunately, the last couple were not attended by the russians, but they could come back. I hope there would be more conferences of this variety. We have not just the problem any longer of Nuclear Weapons that might be shot by rockets across continental and so forth. We are in a situation with terrorists, who could go into particular areas, scoop up the material that is required, and create havoc in any city or situation all over the world. This is a big problem but one that is not without some solutions and potential for cooperation. Mr. Hoffman thank you. Secretary kerry, you want to add something . Secretary perry, you want to add something . Mr. Perry i want to comment about a question im asked all the time. Questions im asked by my students. All right, so you needed Strategic Deterrence during the cold war. How did that add up to 70,000 Nuclear Weapons . What deterrence argument led you to 70,000 . They did cap it, so lets say 30,000 roughly. I tried to answer the question. Maybe we think to have deterrence, we need to be able to destroy 100 targets. To be safe, lets double that, make it 200 or 250. Then you assume that maybe some of our missiles wont work, so we better double that. Now we get up to 500, 1000. Then you say, but we are going to be responding to a surprise attack. That surprise attack is going to destroy 90 of our silos and most of our airbases, and the bombers left going to be shot down by the soviet air defense. Somehow, the soviets are going to have a magical solution which is going to attack our submarines at sea. Never quite explain what that is. So they are going to be gone, too. Pretty soon, you have got the numbers. You better multiply it by 10. After all of this elaborate calculation without substance, you have got 10,000. How do you get to 30,000 . All i can say from that point is after a while, you watch with the soviets are doing, they watch what you are doing, and it becomes we want as many as they have, plus a little more. And that gets you into what is called a feedback loop that gets uncontrolled. If i put my hand on my hearing aid, i get a whistling noise, which maybe you can hear. That is an uncontrolled feedback loop, which theoretically can be infinitely many. We never got to infinitely, but we did get to 70,000, which is a lot. To answer the question for the future, can we learn something from that past . In a logic i cannot possibly explain to my students getting to 70,000, can we learn something from that . If we modernize our Nuclear Weapons, build new ones in United States and russia, if we feel we have to do that, at least can we find a way of doing that in a restrained, logical way so we dont find ourselves once again going to this surrealistic number of 70,000 Nuclear Weapons, each of which has destructive power about 10 times to hundred times the hiroshima bomb. [applause] mr. Hoffman i think we will close this panel. With the optimistic thought that that feedback loop at least was broken and we are now down to many tens of thousands fewer, but we have not completely gone to zero. Only have 15,000 now. Mr. Hoffman now we are going to move to a panel to discuss implementation, but i would like to thank all the panels for what they have done for joining us in the celebration of this important moment. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] announcer you are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend on cspan3. To join the conversation like us , on facebook at cspan history. Cspan, where history is unfolding daily. In 1979, cspan was created as a Public Service on americas Public Television companies and is brought to you by your satellite providers. American history tv is in harrisburg, the state capital of pennsylvania. 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