Knight when the networks decided they needed a midweek game. Now it depends on what conference youre in, how many days of school you missed. You can keep defending it. I would work on changing it. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, for this hearing. I thank the gentleman. Im going to thank the witnesses. A lot of expertise, real knowledge, appreciate everything you had to offer. Quite a diversity and experiences and positions here. Somebody who was a toplevel College Athlete and then went on to play in the nfl has very strong feelings and opinions about these issues and has pointed out very eloquently, mr. Eilers, that weve got problems out there as mr. Miller, again very passionately, pointed out that needed to be addressed. What brought this hearing together was the actions of a regional director of the National LaborRelations Board who suggested that these athletes are employees and, therefore, could, if they chose, vote to join a union. And so we explored some of the possible downsides of that issue, and we heard from witnesses here that talked about how would this deal with class attendance and practice times, attending games, how many games, what about walkon players, what about universities who are public and dont fall under the National Labor relations act and a host, frankly, of potential problems. And we wanted to get that out, and i very much appreciate the testimony of the Witnesses Today as we start to explore that. I dont think there is a person on this committee that doesnt agree that we need to address some of those very issues that we talked about, and again, that mr. Eilers talked about so eloquently. The question is, is unionization of some sports, some players and some schools the appropriate tool to get to that end . Ive been very clear to say that i dont think that it is, and we need to then focus on, i think, all of us perhaps in congress and certainly those of you in the field, as it were, as athletic directors and College President s and those concerned to do the sorts of things that mr. Miller was talking about, that we address these issues. I just dont believe that sporadic unionization and no, im not arguing for a bigger bargain unit there, mr. Miller, i just think the law is the wrong law, its the wrong tool to use here. Okay. There being no further business, the committee is adjourned. Thank you very much. Thank you. Here is a look at weps wednesday nights prime time lineup. Deb roo rutter, with a lock at kennedy center. Citizen conference, civic and education leaders discuss what it means to be a citizen. On cspan at 8 00, more congressional retirement interviews. Our focus is Michigan Democratic senator carl levin and texas republican congressman ralph hall. They are part of our weeklong series. This thanksgiving week cspan has interviews from retired members of congress. Watch thursday from 8 00 p. M. Eastern. As much as weve accomplished in 36 years, and i dont want to look back at that as much as to look forward to the next couple months and in the next couple months theres a couple things i would like do. One is to get my Defense Authorization bill passed. This is an annual ef important major effort, involving large amounts of staff. I also want it finish up work on a permanent subcommittee on investigations. Looking at some gimmicks which are used to avoid taxes. Ive been a member of congress for 34 years. And to finally get beat, if i was a manager for a baseball or football team, and i had a 341, i would be in the hall of fame. So it doesnt bother me. And really it didnt bother me to get beat because i wasnt just set ongoing, i had 18 cochairman, chairman of 18 counties in my district that were supporting me and wanted know run. And i did. And also on thursday, thanksgiving day, we will take an American History tour of various native american tribes. Thats at 10 00 a. M. Eastern following washington journal. Then at 1 30, attend Ground Breaking ceremony of the new diplomacy septemberener washington with new secretaries of state. And clarence thomas, samuel alito and Sonia Sotomayor at 8 30. For our complete schedule, go to cspan. Org. With live coverage of the u. S. House on cspan and senate on cspan 2, here on cspan 3 we compliment that coverage by showing you the most rel rant hearings Public Affairs events. On week ends, cspan is the home to American History tv, programs that tell our nations story. Including the civil wars 150th anniversary visiting battle fields and key events. American artifacts, touring museums and Historic Sites to discover what artifacts reveal about americas past. History bookshelf with the best known American History writers. Presidency looking at policies an legacies of our nations commanders in chief. Lectures in history what top College Professor delving into americas past. And featuring arechival and government films from the 1970s. Watch us in hd, like us on facebook, and follow us on twitter. Next a discussion about minority students and Higher Education. Hosted by the ucla civil rights project. College professors and education professionals present studies on issues affecting black and hispanic students. As well as access to Student Loans and overall effectiveness of College Ratings. This is about 40 minutes. Thanks very much, gary. So the paper im going to talk about this morning called the color of student debt is kau coauthored with robert and jason. This paper, as i said, is about student debt. Something i know many of us are very concerned about and certainly as School Resumes this fall for undergraduates across the country, we ought to remember that at more than 1 in 2 of them as they enter a College Classroom this fall have taken out a loan in order do so. Thats a significant change in history of this country and it means something. About what College Opportunity entails today. In particular, i think its notable that borrowing today is no longer a choice. That if one wants to attend college today, and particularly if one wants to attend college coming from a middle moderate or low income family, its almost absolutely a necessity now that one borrows. Thats a major change over time. So total borrowing has grown by more than 10 in the last year alone. We are hearing numbers about trillions and things like this. Now i would be happy to talk about the nuances of that trillion dollar number and concerns i might have about the pieces this debate that have been overstated. But i think there is no way to overstate the nablfact that stu debt has become an important facet of the undergraduate experience today and that in fact many students actually need to borrow in order to attend college. So the purpose of this paper is to turn to the data and consider what might be the implications of some of the current federal debates about restricting access to loans. Whether its through accountability, measures for institutions, whether its about institutions, right, to limit bore rogue of their student or some of their borrowers in their effort to reduce default rates. Some of their borrowers in their effort to reduce default rates. We want to raise awareness of the consequences about such moves. It is important that rather than reacting by limiting borrowing if we want to deal with student debt that we instead make more proactive adjustments to broader system of financing Higher Education. In all the talk about interest rates, Repayment Period and parent plus loans, theres been something missing. A word that has not been said despite the very clear evidence of the strong relationship between Race Ethnicity and Family Resources for college. It is indisputable that student debt today has a color. Most student loan borrowers in this country are Nonhispanic White and middle class. Most of them. But the fact is, that students of color, and black students in particular, are much more likely to require Student Loans in order to finance college. In other words for these students, it is rarely even a close. The percent of black und undergraduates on student aid is growing. 52 of them have a loan. It is safe it say that majority of africanamerican student in college would not be there without access to Student Loans. Next slide, please. Now why is this . The data indicate that it is fairly straight forward and that weve been overlooking a really important fact of todays status q quo. And that is that white families today have over 20 times the wealth of black families. That while the black middle class accumulated some wealth over the course of the 20th century it was demolished in the great reception. Today, nearly onethird of black families have zero or even negative wealth. Next slide. Now it is actually incredibly easy to forget about wealth when were talking about Financial Aid. Since thanks to legislativive changes over the past po 30 years, the facet ignores family values and it ignores debt. Income alone does not bring stability. And the gap has never been larger. So our analyses indicate that black white differences in Family Wealth ask you click the side please the blackwhite differences in Family Wealth can explain over 30 of the black white differential we observed in student borrowing. There is a lot of claims about overborrowing. These claims do not take into account the significant disparities in wealth. Famili glak families under black families understand that you need to havedcation to move up. But it is hard if when you dont have wealth. Home ec wit, family inheritance, et cetera, for many black families there are no other options. My coauthors and i want to look at this data. There is a lot of information about historically black college and universities and a lot of discussion about for profits. So we thought it was very important to turn some attention to this. It is of course the case that black students are overrepresented in their ep rollment in these two types offens tugss and we might therefore expect that borrowing rates would be higher in part because they do have student there who do need fwroer it. To borrow it. To borrow it theres less Financial Aid available for students and thats why they need to borrow more. What we find is that this factor, lack of resources at institution, is contributing to borrowing but only at forprofit institutions. It is not driving up borrowing at hbcus. Please go to the next click. So the overrepresentation of africanamerican students at forprofit institution is actually contributing to another 30 of the observed race gap and debt. Next slide. So in addition, we can see that while Student Loans are especially important to student at hcbus, it is also north noting that for all of the talk about this, the overrep dep tags of plus loans, when you look at the pie clahart, you see that hu is just 4 . So if were concerned about plus loans we need to look elsewhere for a solution. Next slide. So we think that it is clearly important that in discussing the upcoming reauthorization of the Higher Education act we acknowledge the importance of student loanes to the Africanamerican Community and to families across the country. These are enormous, growing rapidly, and theyre not going anywhere. Which means we need policies that respond to the problem but acknowledging it and providing help. Not cutting them off. There is a way it ensure that student do borrow less. Meeting their demonstrated financial need. We have a federaled into the analysis and we ignore it when it clearly indicates a negative skekted family contribution. We can change that law and we can ensure that student from families with no assets get the pell grapt if they need it in toward succeed in college. In other words, right now, we have families and student who should qualify for negative efc and larger pell. We ignore that information and instead require they borrow and penalize them for doing so. We should also increase the transparency. We need to reduce the risk of nonpayment. Finally, we argue that repayment options for Student Loans should be extended to parent plus loans. Thank you. We are preserving your time for questions. Our next speaker is willie kirkland. He can tell you from the front lines what this issue looks like to a very important hbcu. Thank you. Good morning. Im here to talk about the experience of one institution with the impact of Financial Aid limits and how it affects the institutions throughout from individual student to institutions bottom line. And so, im talking about dylan university located in new orleans, louisiana. Founded in 1869. And part of the history, mission has focused on training africanamerican and underprivileged individuals and to assume leadership roles throughout the world and country. Dill et has been 1200 student. 98 are american. That number, 65 are from louisiana. We also get a large proportion of student from other states including california where we get about 12 of our students. Texas about 7 . And illinois about 6 . Also, 90 of students received some tiech aid. This is important and critical. What it means is for the institution, Financial Aid is central and we will find at Financial Aid perm nates throughout the institution in terms of how to fix and impact against an institution. Di dill et had a pretension prom problem. In 2005, dill et had a significant loss of property and damaged infrastructure from hurricane katrina. That event resulted in dill et losing about half of its enrollment, from 2,000 to 1,000. Embarking upon reenrolling students and increasing this and rolling it, by 200 the, about 4 years after katrina, we ran into a problem. Serious problem. Retention prob grprogram. Because it was effecting the bottom line institution, its budget, revenue, were down. So what institution decided to do was to look at retention and what may be driving retention at the end of the institution. We just knew that tension was dropping. By 201213, the retention rate dropped to 58 . So we add serious problem with retention. Research desire to undertake retention study to university. And it may effect the university of retention and we put together a model specific to dill et and that model had nine independent variables that were used to predict retention. First retention. Scores. Instate versus out of state. Resident versus commuter and Financial Aid consideration in terms of regional need. We found two important things stood out. Two factors. One was grade point average. These two things were driving retention at least in terms of the 2010 cause. The reliability in terms of two variables that we liked at, were they influenced in retention across and so we use a Cross Section analysis to look at three cohorts. And so if you are familiar with reliability, you know, what you expect is the sim loilar votes matter how many times you mae measure. We showed all three cohorts showed similar results. The so having established that liability. One of the questions that came up, since we had this data is what about federal policy and its impact . One of the things that had been talked about is the stricter requirements of parent plus loans. So what we decided to do is if we had data to look for the impact of that, so for the 2012 cohort we were able to obtain data. And we performed the cross tabulation and we saw that the retention rate for those who parents were decline a loan tended to be higher than those whose parents were approved for the loan and those who did not take the loan. So this spurred more interest and so we decided to put that particular variable into our model. We monitor the accountability significantly over the last five years. One of the things that we looked at and want to recommend is that there are factors beyond just an institutions capacity and capability that effect retention. Student come into our institutiones with different varying needs and of course, those students dont persist at the same rate. And a lot of that is conditioned by Financial Aid or what we found ability. And so is it fair to have an institution and Financial Aid to institutions which have 25 , say. And so, when you set standards and one of the things that we look at is the retention and graduation rate, you know, our suggestion is that perhaps some type of weighted system be incorporated. Thae and that the student population may indeed have an even playing field. Thank you very much dr. Kirkland. Our first commentate oral be Stella Flores from vanderbilt university. In response to this paper, i will respond to the whole paper. This paper bring two key social and Financial Realities that deserve more policy and research attention. That of the racial gap and racial debt gap. While there are differences in income, this paper is direct about how access to wealth which is influenced by a very poor racial history is fundamentally a discussion about race as well. There is that of the focus of the role of the effects of the Great Recession as new financial context. For example, it is no secret that low to middle income families may need to take out loans for college. I certainly could not have completed my various post Second Degree without the health. However, Something Different to engage in loan behavior in the recession era from personal as well as statewide context. The focus on the federal loan influence to their role in the the proposed College Rating system. But aid situations are also part of the aid decision and deregulating tuition and institutional choices to disproportionately involve merit over need. How current regulations for loan engagement and response play out in the new financial context for allamericans but particularly racial minority americans. The office also provides updated hbcus and nonhbcus. Only 4 of plus loans are at this institutions. I offer the following recommendations. In terms of the racial wealth gap, it might be helpful to look at black students beyond hbcu. I encourage authors to look at condition of Financial Aid received especially loans at institutions that are considered predominantly black ints tugss in addition to their work hbcu to more precisely unpack the racial wealth debt gap. Authors have begun to do this. Or expect the authors should be able to do this. They are well situated to do it and i look forward to seeing new results on that. My other recommendation is to include other groups in the racial wealth and racial debt gaps as they move forward which ive talked to sarah about and i know this is part of the plan as well. But the ratio wealth and racial debt gap may be more pronounced if you include latino families. Our analysis which i will present later actually show that in texas, it is latino student who kproes the most economically disadvantage student in fouryear institutions. Also adding hsi story is critical at these institutions. Everyone understand that Latino College enrollment. Finally, literally and wealth. I encourage them to keep pushing for transparency and understanding the role of Financial Literacy and strategy associated with Family Wealth. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Next commentator is brian bridges from United Negro College fund. Good morning. I want to thank gary, first of all, and civil rights project for convening this muchneeded event. And thank you to dr. Kirkland for providing this contribution to todays proceedings. Too often these conversations about Research Takes place without hbcu practitioners who conducted research at hbcu contribute together discussion. We know the importance of examining the broader hbcu context. Uncf members are primary liberal arts institutions but i hope this paper demonstrates the need for funding to support applied research at these institutions which is necessary in promoting hbcu proposition. So gary is cracking the whip on time here. I only is have five minutes. I want to highlight a few positives. High few decisions. And briefly talk about implications. I want to start by identifying the fact that the kirkland paper provides empirical evidence that reinforces efforts by hbc you community to promote continued access to muchneeded Financial Aid dollars. The studied provides evidence. When it comes to retention and especially student gpa, the last one being one that we dont have enough information on. There is also voice to hbcu which is often referenced in some total, not the wide range of nuances that exist within the network. More Hbcu Research of this caliber is needed to have the work taking place on the ground and to inform the entire community to provide model to best practice. Dr. Kirklands paper is filled with powerful findings that can inform campus practitioners who serve campus student. The specifics tell us about dill eddie taubens et students. The owe reriginawe the unmet ne returning students increased almost three times the rate as that for nonreturners during the period. Students increased almos times the rate as that for nonreturners during the period. A troubling pictures emerges that we know has been taking place for some time. Hbcu student have increasingly encountered difficulty finding the funding that is necessary to make the collegiate dreams reality. While this increasing need is not highlighted, it is not to be glossedor. There are two variables, with the denial of plus loeps. Loans. Loanloans loans. The variable is the most powerful predictor of early success and that is first semester gpa. Now a couple of ideas for few tour studies that i would like to see on first or second year attention. First semester gpa or are there other more direct impacts on retention in in other words, is there more to the effect after plus loan denial than a student retained and impact on gpa . While this paper does not explore how lingering unmet need for plus loan denial impact gpa or retention just that it does. Psycho social implications on students could be very illuminating. One of the questions i also had left is whether the impact of unmet need o is consistent across all levels. Did it have the same impact . This paper adds to the body of knowledge about what helps or not at hbcu. Resources continue to shrink at campus and federal level. This can be the californplatfor Additional Research that needs to be done. Africanamerican families were particularly hard hit by the Great Recession add together difficulty of these familiar i theres to send their kids to college. Exacerbating by recession, when a time when there is more meritbased aid than needbased aid. Continuing to shrink over longterm and federal government making legislative and policy changes reducing access to aid and should be easily fl understood why hbcu fought so hard against parent plus changes recently. The paper also helps us better understand how student are disproportionately affected by student aid policy. Government policies can have a direct impact on disadvantaged populations and the institutions they attend. This paper confirms that and announces on plus loan impact on one hbcu shows the disproportionate impact on hbcus with thousands of students approved over the last couple of years is real. Reports have the parent plus loan crisis and after the campaign the department of education responded by proposing new parent plus loan rules that will reopen the doors for college for thousands of students. Research by practitioners, like dr. Kirkland is necessary to remain vigilant for future cases like this. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now we have the time that you can ask questions. Theres microphones here at the end of each aisle. So come forward quickly. While youre coming forward, i will pitch one at the authors. A lot of the problem with abuse of loans has taken place in the forprofit sector. Are we firing a cannon and hitting a wrong target a as we try to restrict plus loans for other kind of institutions . Sara . I think theres no question about whether the challenges lie. Although i do think that story on the for profits is a bit more complicated than the one thats been told thus far. I think there probably are some that are engaged in behaviors that we should be concerned about and others that may not be. I think the fact of the matter is that we are trying to design our way it a policy solution that is overly complicated because we are unwilling to make simple statements about where our funds are public dollars should go. And in the absence of having the guts do that, and drawing some lines in the sand about public use of public dollars, this is where we are. We are trying to back into a solution thats going to cause harm to some of our greatest institutions. Are there other questions . Everybody still sleepy . So id like to ask dr. Kirkland, now, hbc is defending plus loans. But theyre burdensome for family that dont have resources or negative resources. So is it doing Something Like sara was talking about, to change pell grant to give student bigger grants to start with . Yes. I would agree. That what we found is it is an ongoing problem. Is that students, you know, they stress about thesish ice issues. And youre correct in terms of parents who apply for the parent loan sometimes are reluctant to want do it. Simply because many of the parents have extremely low income. And for example, if your income is 20,000 a year, family income, and you go and you borrow 15 to 20,000 from plus loan, it creates a serious burden on the parent. Many cases parents may not be able to repay that. So i think that if it were available, that would preclude parents from having to seek the loan to close gaps. I think it could be important. So i think weve had an opening. Yes, go ahead. Come and ask your question. Thank you. Good morning. Leslie baskerville, president and ceo, of the Membership Association of the 105 historically black colleges and universities. I would like to thank each one of you