Transcripts For CSPAN3 Members Urged To Take Action On Border Security Tackle Crime 20170429

A core attribute of sorn vernty is maintaining control over u. S. Bond driz. This failure has allowed millions of foreign nationals to enter the suts United States illegally and allowed huge amounts of narcotics to be smuggled into the country. The sorry state of affairs has had significant consequences for american taxpayers, for victims of violent crime, and for the rule of law. It is time to secure the border. A central issue of the president s 2006 campaign was the promise to build, quote, an impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful, southern border wall, end quote. The administration is taking steps to fulfill that promise and the subcommittee on National Security is closely monitoring this process. The president issued an executive order on january 25th for the department of Homeland Security to, quote, take all appropriate steps to immediately plan, design, and construct the physical wall along the southern border end quote. On mar 17th they for prototype designs as the first step in fulfilling the requirement as set forth in the order. Dhs is expected to use these prototypes to perform actual construction. Border walls have seen success in vent years. President trump has identified Israeli Border security measures as a potential model for securing the u. S. mexico border. The construction of a security fence on the israel sinai border cut illegal entries from over 16,500 in 2011 to just 43 in 2013, and 12 in 2014, a 99 decrease. Israels Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remarked that President Trump is right, i built a wall along israels southern border, it stopped all illegal immigration, great success, great idea. Now, to doh those who oppose building the wall dispute that success or is the reason they opposing building the way precisely because they acknowledge its potential effectiveness of curbing illegal immigration . I think we stro figure that out. Recent Media Coverage has focused on the cost of building a wall and this is a legitimate issue. Dhs has only just begun the procurement process, theyve been getting cost estimates if the they issued a flawed report claiming that the wall would cost 70 billion. Todays democrat witness wrote in january that a border wall would cost as much as 14 billion, which is obviously much different than the Senate Democrat estimate. And i think what they did was take the highest historical number they could find and multiply it by the total miles of the board cler i dont think anyone is suggesting is the way do it. And other opon nebts of a secured bortder have put the same sloppy math to confuse the issue. The wall should be built in a fiscally responsible way and there are a variety of krooe creative ways such as using the seize assets of drug deal toerz build it at little or no cost to the american taxpayer. At the same time what is rarely zised but which needs serious inquiry is whether securing the border will have a positive effect on american taxpayers at the local, state, and federal levels. And today well hear testimony from immigration expert dr. Steven camarota on the significant burdens that illegal immigration and having an unsecured border can impose on u. S. Taxpayers. Dr. Camarota estimates that if a border wall prevented between 160,000 to 200,000 illegal crossings which is only about 10 of the expected crossings in the next decade, then the u. S. Would realize between 12 billion and 15 billion in savings. That would effectively offset the cost of building the wall even if you didnt used the seized drug assets. Of course securing the boarder is more about dollars an cents. Its also about our governments duty to secure its borders rerz defend our sovereignty and most importantly protect our citizens. Illegal immigration has had significant human costs. Too Many Americans have been robbed of lufd ones dlou crimes committed by criminal aliens who should not have been allowed in this country to begin with. One of them is mrs. Agnes gibboney who lost her son 15 years ago today. Ronald was murder by a previously deported illegal immigrant with a long criminal record. And she, herself, is a legal immigrant from hungary had the she did it the right way and her son was taken from her by someone who had no right to be in our country. What makes this tragedy and others like so painful is that ronalds murder was prevent able had the government simply done its job and maintained a security border, the murder would never have been able to enter our country and ronald would still be with us. Building a wall in the u. S. Mexican border will not stop all illegal immigration but its a necessary first step and consistent with experiences in yuma and san diego has the ability to reduce it. In addition, predictable enforcement of immigration laws in the inn tier yore of the United States will restore the rule of law and deter would be Illegal Immigrants from attempting to circumvent the laws in the first plate. We hope our witness for the Border Patrol council will speak more broadly about what they see on the border every day and what they need to do to do their job. This subkmiet at the will continue robust oversight over these actions to determining how they are meeting the threat posed by a porus border and we want to make sure that taxpayer money is being used well, that the barrier is being built and in an effective way and were bog to continue to monitor this as this unfolds over the next year and a half. I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their testimony. And with that, i yield to sitting in for my friend from massachusetts, the Ranking Member, mr. Lynch is mr. Desong yang. Thank you, mr. Chair manage. I want to thank you and the staff and the Witnesses Today on what say very emotional and legitimately for some of the Witnesses Today issue. But i look order in to public transparent analysis where we have an objective needs assessment, risk assessment, and an engineering assessment as to the cost benefit of this potentially huge investment. Ms. Gibboney, i cant imagine being a father of two sons who lost a parent to violence, i cant imagine what it is like to be here to sit on this anniversary. So for your loss and your passion to see somethings done about that, i am very respectful in so much as we may have some differences. I understand i think as best i can of whats brought you here today and the earnest desire you have to make sure that other parents will never be in the position that youre in. Ms. Espinoza from what ive read in your work, similarly not as dramatically perhaps, but more globally as you see many, many cases. I very much respect your work and the ultimate desire that you have. And mr. Judd, to you and your colleagues, Great Respect for the work that you do. I know when i was in the California Legislature many times having conversation with our state Law Enforcement people about the border, the difficult jobs do you and the department of justice in california when they work with you on that. And the other two witnesses, thank you for being here. Let me just add to that that this crucial work we take is very serious. Again, it should be factbased, looked at. This issue, so that we identify what measures will work, what benefits would be, what the benefits would be and what the costs would be to the taxpayers and all americans. The wall that the president is proposing simply wont work, in my view and in others, and will divert resources away from the areas critical to protecting the health, safety, and security of americans. Recently Oversight Committee will herd who represents a district covering 800 miles of the border addressed his concerns with the president s plan. He wrote in open ed in the Washington Post in which he called the wall, quote, the most expensive and least effective way to secure the border. He also wrote, quote, true Border Security demands a flexible defense indepth strategy that includes a mix of personnel, technology, and changing tactics. All of which come at a lower price tag than a border wall. Im in agreement with my colleague. The proposals the proposed wall is incredibly expensive with little, if any, return on the investment despite the fact that the president claims that the wall would cost 10 to 12 billion. Most analysis place the number far higher. The department of Homeland Security conducted an internal study that estimated the border wall would cost nearly 22 billion in up front Construction Costs alone. Other independent and Congressional Studies have estimates up to 40 or even 70 billion. This is all in contrast to the programs the same administration has proposed getting, including those that help Everyday Americans and provide returns to the american public. Its troubling that the president proposed budget proposes billions towards a wall while slashing critical domestic programs including his proposesed budget that would cut nearly 20 of the fund together National Insurance stuts of health jeopardizing medical advancements to cure chronic diseases and save lives return colluding cancer. Additionally, it will undermine our National Security by redirecting funds from programs that actually work to secure our border. This money would instead be pulled from Airport Security programs that help secure these major points of entry where drugs are much more likely to be trafficked into our borders. Despite the president s rhetoric during the obama administration, the number of unauthorized immigrants into the United States dropped from 12. 2 million to 1. 1 million in 2014. During that same time, more people became unauthorized to be in the United States simply by overstaying visas than by coming across the u. S. Border with mexico. At least 40 of all individuals in the United States illegally have overstayed their visas rather than coming across the border. The president s proposal to build a solid, concrete wall across the length of our southern border fails to be workable or costeffective. His request is a shortsided request for congress and breaks one of his most fundamental Campaign Promises that the American People would not pay a dime for the wall on the u. S. mexico border. Mr. Chairman we have a short video to play at that this time. Without objection. Were going to build the wall, we have no choice. Who is is going to pay for the wall . Who . Mexico. The wall is going to be paid for by mexico. Mexicos going to pay for the wall. And mexico will pay for the wall. Mexicos bog to pay for it. And i will have mexico pay for that wall. Whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico. Who . Mexico. Do you believe that mexico will pay for it . No. Hes obviously talking about having mexico pay for it. Do you think thats actually a viable option . No. Thank you, mr. Chairman. When announcing his president when announcing his president ial bid, the president stated and i quote i would build a great wall and nobody builds walls better than me. Believe me. And ill build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border and ill have mexico pay for that wall, mark my words. End of quotes. At that february, 2016, Campaign Rally the president reiterate the we will build a great wall along our southern border and mexico will pay for that wall 100 . Of course these are only a few of the countless times the president has overpromise and underdelivered for the American People. Now less than 100 days into his pressy he has completely abandoned this promise and change dollars his tune. Earlier this week he tweeted that mexico will pay for the wall, quote, eventually, and in some form. With his track record, nobody should believe that. Instead, hes demanding that American Families have the burden of finding additional billions of dollars to build this wall. Until earlier this week, he was signaling that he would be willing to shut down the government to get the leverage to take this money out of the wallets of hardworking American Families. We have real problems to address in securing our borders. We all agree, but the president s proezed border wall does nothing to advance, nothing or very little to advance our National Security. Not only you some it not be built, but it absolutely should not be built on the backs of hardworking American Families. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Ill hold the record open for five legislative days for any members who would like to submit a written statement. Well now recognize our panel of witnesses. Im pleased to welcome mr. Steven camarota ph dynamics, director of Research Center for immigration studies. Mr. Brandon judd President National Border Patrol counsel. Ms. Maria espinoza director the remembrance project. Ms. Ago guess gibboney mother of rodney silva, and mr. Seth stodder former assistant secretary for border, immigration and trade policy department of Homeland Security. Glad you were able to get here. Welcome to you all. Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses the be sworn in before they testify, so if you could all please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony youre about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god . Thank you, please be seated. All witnesses answered in the affirmative. In order to allow time for discussion, please limit your testimony to five minutes. Youre entire written statement will be made a part of the record. Mr. Camarota, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. I would like to thank the chair and the committee for inviting me. My name is Steven Camarota and im director of research at the center for immigration studies. My testimony today is based on a recent report published by the center. This analysis reports the fiscal costs of illegal Border Crossers based on some fiscal estimates developed by the National Academy of sciences, engineering and medicine earlier this year or i should say last year for immigrants by education level. These calculations are based on some pretty wellestablished facts about Illegal Immigrants. First, there is agreement that Illegal Immigrants overwhelmingly have mod eft levels of education, the vast majority either didnt graduate high school in their home country or have only the equivalent of a high school education. There is also agreement that immigrants who come to america with modest levels of education regardless of legal status create more in cost for government than they pay in taxes. Now, taking the likely education level of illegal Border Crossers and combining them with the net fiscal estimates from that National Academy studies shows that on balance if you take all the taxes that theyre likely to pay in their lifetime given their education levels and all the services and costs they create, theres a net drain on taxpayers of about 75,000 per illegal border crosser, or about 7. 5 billion per 100,000 illegal border crosser. This figure is only for the original illegal immigrant, it doesnt count their descendents. We can do that, thats also in the study from the academies. If we apply thosest maents mates, then the cost would rise to about 94 billion per illegal immigrant and their descendents or about 9. 4 billion per 100,000. Now, to be clear, the fiscal costs of Illegal Immigrants is not due to the fact that they dont want to work, its not even due to the fact that many work off the books. Rather, it reflects their Educational Attainment in the modern American Economy, people with this skill profile, native born immigrant or legal immigrant or illegal immigrant pay less in taxes than they use in services. Theres pretty much absolute agreement on that. What these cost estimates do is give us an idea not only of what illegal Border Crossers cost, but they let us evaluate the likely savings that different enforcement strategies create for taxpayers verse whats these enforcement strategies might cost. So, for example, a newly released study by the institute for defense analysis indicates that perhaps 1. 7 million new Illegal Immigrants will successfully cross our border in the next ten years. Now, if thats the case, and no one knows what the future holds of course, but if that were to happen and given these costs, it means that if we were to stop just nine 9 to 12 of those expected crossers over the next decade, it would generate 12 billion to 15 billion in savings which would be enough to pay for the wall. In fact, the wall could pay for itself even if it only kept out a small fraction of the people expected to come. Now recently the Cato Institute evaluate the my analysis and they argued that the Illegal Immigrants werent as unskilled as i thought they were based on my analysis of the data. But even so he they still found that the average illegal border crosser would pay 43 face a fiscal deficit of 43,000 or 4. 3 billion per 100,000 illegal crosser. Now, cato in their analysis also tries to argue that state and local government costs, which are in the National Academy studies, shouldnt count because its the federal government thats building the wall. Now this argument doesnt make sense to me but thats up to congress whether to count the state and local costs. But it seems reasonable to me do so. Now, finally i just want to make one more point about the costs that come from the national academies. They employ a concept called net present value which calculates the fiscal impact, but this concept which is commonly used by economists has the effect of reducing the size of the drain that unskilled immigrants will create because it discounts the costs in the future. If you deputy didnt do that discounting the costs are about double. So if you want to do a different calculation where you dont discount the future, thats what you would get. But the bottom line from this analysis is that unskilled immigration which characterizes most illegal immigration is very costly to taxpayers given their education, and given the realities of the modern American Economy that pays the less educated relatively low wages, coupled with the existence of a large and well developed administrative state. Its not the fiscal costs they create is not a moral defect on their part, its simply the reality of education. Thank you for allowing me to testify and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Now recognize mr. Judd for five minutes. Chairman desantis, congressman desaulnier, i appreciate the opportunity to be here today. I want to emphasize first off, i will not abvideo indicate for 2,000 miles worth of border, thats not necessary. But what i will advocate for is a border wall in strategic locations, which helps us secure the border. I want to point out what happened and give you a historical analysis of why the borders unsecured today. In the midaets, the United States faced its first illegal immigration crisis. The Border Patrol had approximately 4,000 acts who were charged with patrolling 2,000 miles of United States Mexico International border. Other than bashed wire fensz owned by ranchers there were no vehicle or pedestrian barriers to impede Border Crossers. The Border Patrol was overwe will am and congress chose to deal with the influx of illegal aliens entering the United States bypassing the Immigration Reform act of 1986. The act promised to security the border and ensure the United States was never put in the same situation again. The act failed. It failed in large part because the United States government put the cart before the horse. Without securing the border first, the government legalized several million persons who willfully violated u. S. Law. By so doing, we broadcast a clear message to the world that our laws could be made void if enough people entered the country illegally. The message was heard worldwide and illegal immigration exploded. After irka in 86, the Border Patrol thought if it could control these two corridors, they would be able to control ill lamb immigration and narcotic smuggling. They threw the vast majority of these resources at these areas but left other areas like the el Central California and the tucson respect arizona wide open. The prevailing thought was that the infrastructure did not exist on either side of the boarder to allow smuggling organizations to move their operations to the inhospitable and barren desert areas of arizona. The prevailing thought was wrong. For more than with ten years the tucson Border Sector was overrun because we did not have the forth sight to realize that smuggling is big business and the car tells are extremely flexible aind dapt able. In essence, we created the problem in tucson and the citizens and ranchers paid for our mistakes. Unlike today, isis didnt exist, criminal car tells didnt control every facet of illegal activity on the border, and transnational gangs werent prevalent in the United States. Today, however, this is our reality. Panned f we refuse to learn from failed Border Security policy and operations of the past, we will never secure the border. We must take a proabout active approach and it must start with the proper mix of technology, infrastructure, and manpower and it must be comprehensive. We must acknowledge that shutting down the rio grand valley sector without addressing lor radio, big bend, will just create the same type of vacuum that we created in arizona. Part of the proper part of the proper infrastructure, the wall, is being heavily debated and as an agent who worked in two of the busiest sectors of the this history of the Border Patrol i can personally tell you how effective border barriers are. When i got to the tucson sector we had next to nothing by way of infrastructure and i can confidently say that for every illegal border crosser that i apprehended, three got away. The building of barriers and large fences, a bipartisan effort, allowed agents in part to dictate where illegal crossings took place and doubled how effective i was able to be in apprehending illegal Border Crossers. As an agent who has who has extensive experience working with and without border barriers, and as the person elected to represent rank and file Border Patrol agents i can personally attest to how effective a wall in strategic locations will be. I implore both sides of the aisle to quit poe lit sizing illegal border entries and work with the border frol patrol by providing the necessary infrastructure and manpower. By so doing, Border Patrol agents will secure the border. I appreciate your time and look forward to answering all of your questions. Thank you. Thank the gentleman. Ps espinoza youre up for five minutes. Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the committee, im honored to be here before you today to testify on issues associated with National Security. My name is maria espinoza. My testimony is based upon my nearly eight years of traveling across the country with the reremembrance project. We advocate for our families who were forgotten whos loved ones your killed by illegal aliens. It is for you to understand the emergency of the immediate need to secure our country. Americans will continue to be under assault and the wall is built and the border secured. I have aattended murder trials, criminal and civil hearings, testified in other states and participated in round Table Discussions with sheriffs. I have made presentations and have spoken with groups all over the United States about the most devastating of all impacts of illegal immigration, the loss of a life. I have had hundreds of firsthand experiences with many stolen lives families. For nearly 20 years, families of americans slain by illegal aliens have given heart wrenching congressional testimony like the one youre about to hear from mrs. Gibboney about the tragic and vooinlt violent killings of by loved ones of someone who should not have been in the country in the first place. The iron nip, while it seemed as though the politicians listened and even publicly gave the families their condolences, congressional leadership, the bodies of both houses, democrat and republican, have failed to enact the very measures that would have saved american lives. America has spoken. We want the wall built right away. Today i speak on behalf of the remembrance project advocacy where we proudly support our president , an American First National agenda. The wall is a Foundation Upon which a comprehensive border policy can and must be built. If is of the utmost urgency. First, for a future perspective on the horrors of a National Open borders policy, lets look at texas over the past six years. According to department of Homeland Security status indicators, over 217,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local texas jails between 2011 and 2017. Committing nearly 600,000 crimes ranging from assault of which there were nearly 70,000 to over 6,000 violent sexual assaults of women and children and homicides which numbered nearly 1,200. All preventible. These are only a sample of the heinous crimes they have committed. Department of Homeland Security orts that a full two out of three of these crimes were committed by aliens here illegally. Those who falsely state that a great border wall would not work either dont know their history or are in denial. To those border wall naysayers, doubters and denierz i can assure that you a wall will work. Today where walls exist on our own southern border illegal crossings have been drastically reduced by over 94 n. In the yuma area, crossings dwindled from over 138 how to just over 8,300. The known attempts to enter and those who escaped dwindled to an equally minimal number compared to the hundreds of thousands who entered and evaded arrest in previous years. Yes your Honorable Committee and men and woman, walls do work. To to falter now has dire future consequences to americans and americas future. If not guilty when another open borders president is elected, the technological deter reince and all important army of border algts will be reduced or entirely removed allowing this holocaust of american doilgz resume. This unwise policy must not be allowed to be perpetrated upon our families. Based upon preliminary information, we believe that the american stolen lives main number in the tens of thousands. But because the government at every level has previously failed to identify correctly the illegal alien killers, no one knows for sure. We welcome congresss commitment to be assure an accurate accounting and believe that all americans, if they knew the true human costs of this invasion, would demand the wall be built immediately. Just last month there was a string of reports of heinous crimes committed by illegal alien gang members. The remembrance project advocacy stands behind President Trump with American People in demanding that congress immediately fund the construction of the wall. All of you here today and all of congress bear a duty not just to your constituents but to all americans to preserve our sovereign nation and keep our Community Safe by first and foremost securing our borders. I ask you to do all you can to stop these preventible killings and murders that permanently separate families from their loved ones. Please, not one more stolen lives. Thank you, god bless you, and god bless america. Thank you. Ms. Gibboney, youre up for five minutes. Thank you for inviting me here today. My name is ago guess gibboney, i was born in dowda pest hungary, i was two when my family left in 1957 as refugees. We immigrated to brazil where we lived for 13 years legally trying to apply to come to the United States. My parents, my brother, myself legally immigrated to the United States. We followed all the rules, the laws. We followed all the background investigation, thorough background investigation, and thorough medical exams by american cons sooul sul late appointed and approved doctors. We also had to have character witnesses attesting that we had good moral standing and my father was required to have a job contract. Today, april 27, marks my son ronald de silvas 15th anniversary of his murder. He was my first born, my only son. His father, my first husband, was a brazilian national. Ronald was a good person, kind, consider the, respectful, loving, funny and sometimes a practical joker. He helped my parents and rondald was a good big brother to his two stifters. He was always there when anyone needed his help. Ronald went to visit his two children, matthew and marcel and while standing in the driveway he was shot, a bullet that was intended for someone else. The shooter, the murderer was had a long criminal record cho who had been previously deported. Immediately after the shooting he fled to mexico. His wife was depositing her welfare check at the credit union so he could withdraw it in tee wanna so he can live on it. He eventually returned to the United States and was sent to prison. Hes due to be released in two years and seven months. I am afraid that california wont notify ice of his pending release. It took me almost 11 years to fwiend out he had an ice hold. Our borders would have been if our borders would have been secured, rondald would still be here along with thousands of innocent victims killed by illegal aliens. Many criminal illegal aliens deported return to our unsecured borders to continue victimizing american citizens. One life lost is one too many. We need a barrier, we need the wall, and more Border Patrol officers to protect us all. Ronalds murder devastated my family, my only sibling, my brother, had a massive stroke at age 51 due to the overwhelming stress and despair. He died the following day, only four months after ronald was murdered. You see, my brother was married to my cyster in law who was from mexico and that devastated them. My father gave up living. He wanted to die to be with ronald, his first grandchild. It took him 11 years of suffering. My mother tried to be so hard and strong for me and the family. She was a rock, but i could see the incredible pain in her eyes. She, too, is in heaven now. They are together, my son, my brother, father, and mother. I have never seen my husband mark, a highly educated man, retire deputy chief of the pd where my son was murdered so helpless. There was dmoeg do or undo to fix what happened. He was the one to call me at the campground where i was catching with my two daughters with girl scouts to tell me that ronald was shot in the shoulder and he was expected to survive. We immediately drove home as i walked in the house he hugged me and said, i am sorry, i told them i was going to the hospital to be with ronald so when he came out of surgery he wouldnt be alone. It was then that he said im sorry, ronald didnt make it. Now i live a life sentence of pain and suffering wondering what would ronald look like, would he have gray hair at age 44 . Would he be married . Would he what would he be doing . I miss his beautiful smile, his warm bear hugs, his sense of humor, our talks. I miss his voice, his scent. I miss family gettogethers with all of us present. My familiarly is permanently broken and separated. I cant travel anywhere in the world to see him ever again. I will forever miss all the tomorrows and all those taken from me. All because of broken open borders. I miss watching him i miss watching him iron his clothes and spend a long time fixing his hair but what i miss the most is him calling me mommy. I miss everything, i simply miss my son. All i have left are his clothes, old photos, baby shoes, baby bottles, some toys and memories. I live with this emptiness, a lowell in my heart longing for my son and i live with the daily fear of losing another child or family member. We cannot afford to lose one more life. Ronald is just one life, his death is not an isolated case. Deputy david march murdered a couple days after ronald in a neighboring town, his murderer also fled to mexico and he also had been previously deported. His widow terry and i became friends. We would compare our pain, our hurt, our grief and often krooi cry together. Officer don johnston a coworker of my husband was shot by someone who overstayed his visa. He became paraplegic, he ultimately divide his injuries. Hundreds of victims innocent lives. I wonder how many more there are that we dont know about because our government does not keep statistics on illegal alienss crimes. What an overall problem it is for our nation that so many of u. S. Citizens are tild killed on a daily basis by illegal aliens who shouldnt be in our country to begin with. When i became a u. S. Citizen, the first president i voted for was president Ronald Reagan who signed an amnesty bill which was supposed to be followed by securing our borders and enforcing immigration laws within our country, including very fine rights to employment. These things have never been done and the conditions have gotten worse every year. The irony is my family and i legally immigrated to the United States and an illegal murdered my son. Who should have never been in the country to begin with. I urge you to do what so many politicians have promised for years, a secure border eliminating citizens for illegal aliens to come here and enforcement of existing immigration laws. It is too late for my son ronald and the hows killed by illegal aliens but there sore many lives that could be saved if you would just take action and put americans first. Our President Donald Trump deserves more respect. Hes working so hard to protect our country, protect our constitution, illegal aliens have no constitutional rights. A country without border is no country. You may say that it is inhumane to deport illegal aliens who didnt care about breaking our laws. How many how inhumane is it that my son ronald and thousands of innocent victimss lives were cut short . It is the responsibility of the government to keep us safe and our President Trump is working to accomplish that. Please do not stand in his way, work with him. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Mr. Stodder, youre up for five minutes. Thank you so much. Chairman desantis, representative desaulnier and distinguishes mebd. Thank you for allowing me to testify today and present my views. Ive been around this issue for a while having served in senior Law Enforcement and Homeland Security positions in both the Bush Administration as well as the obama administration. And in my view, President Trumps proposal to build a wall across the entire u. S. Mexico boarder is deeply misguided and congress should not support it. Build a wall would be a massive waste of billions of taxpayer zlarz. Unfortunately will get very little in return because the wall wont help us address any of the most pressing challenges we face at the border. In fact, it will actually make us less safe. This is for several reasons. First, the wall attacks the wrong problem. The fear that america is somehow being overwe willed by massive numbers of mexican migrants seeking to cross the rio grand to take our jobs there are is an old outdated talking point. Of course my zbraigs aggregation still aoccurs occurs, theyre at historic lows. It was out of control with illegal entries from mexico approaching 2 million a year. But since then weve tripled the size of the Border Patrol were weve deployed sensors and aerial drones and we have constructed hundreds of miles of fence in strategic location, mostly in urban areas like the double air fence in san diego. This blend of enforcement efforts has been extraordinarily successful making it far hoarder and more expensive for people to cross illegally. But it only tells part of the story. The other more important point is that mexico is changing. After the last two decades since nafta mexico has grown into the worlds 11th large etch eest economy. There are good jobs in mexico and people are staying to take them. Whats the result of all this . According to peer Research Center, more mexicans leave the United States and head north and border april prehengsz of mexicans are the lowest in decades. With overall apprehensions with 75 less than at the high water mack in 2000 when 1. 6 Million People were april pleend by the Border Patrol. Some do still try to cross and some get in. Border patrol will never be perfect. But the reality is that the investments this congress and administrations of both parties have made in securing the border have paid off. Our border with mexico is far more secure than ever before. Now, this is not to suggest that we dont have pressing challenges at the border, we do. Unfortunately, a wall is not going to help us address any of them. First, the wall will not make us more secure against terrorism. Theres little evidence of terrorists seeking to enter the United States across our southwest border. One of the most Important Reasons for this is our Close Partnership with mexico. We Work Together to share and analyze travelers from the western hem miss steer so so would question spot known and suspected terrorists before they get here. If the fight over the wall poisons this relationship with mexico, it will make the American People less safe. Second, the wall will not stem the flow of illegal drugs. This is for the simple reason that drugs, for the most part, are smuggled into our country in the thousands of cars and trucks that enter our official ports of entry. Such as san useed droe. No one is propose thags we build a wall across interstate 5 or block all trade with mexico. Third, a wall will not help us fight the drug car tells. Most Senior Cartel leaders dont travel to the u. S. But if they do they dont wand are across the desert. But if mexico reduces its cooperation with ice and dea in retaliation to build that wall, it will be far more difficult for us to successfully build was cases against key figures or locate them for arrest in mexico. And finally the wall will not help us face the biggest problem we face with thousands of kwaut mall lan el salvador families coming to our boarder to seek asylum here. Most of these migrants are coming to our pofrts entry or turning themselves into Border Patrol agents in order to claim asylum. Under u. S. International law we cant build a wall and bounce them off. We must allow those claims to be herd in our immigration courts and the law will only channel them to the ports of entry it wont prevent them from coming in the first place. A walls not going to help us with any of the pressing challenges we face at the border. Back in the 70s, they used to hand out the Golden Fleece award to highlight wasteful federal spend pgt i cant think of any program that would make him more proud than the border wall. With billions going to contractors seeking to build a wall that will provide no security benefit to the American People. Republican representative will herd puts it well, it is the most least and effective way to secure the border. The effort to build the wall will divert measures to will actually help. Our immigration system is in crisis straining from the flow of Central American asylum seekers. We need more thoughts for this challenge but suffice it is to say a walls not going to help nor will it make us safer from terror or organized crime. A wall is an extremely bad idea and i Hope Congress does not support it. Thank you. Ill now recognize myself for five minutes. One of the frustrating things with this issue is just ts its been failure theater in this country for over 30 years. Mr. Judd, youve mentioned it, ms. Gib bobny, the 86 amnesty. Were going to do an amnesty bill, secure the border, no more illegal immigration thats a thing the past and illegal immigration quadrupled between them and now in terms of the numbers. 1996 we were supposed to have an entry exit visa system implemented and thats different than this wall issue, but theres millions of people who come legally and overstay their visa. So this day we do not have an entry exit visa system. And then in 2006 with the support of people like senator hillary clinton, chuck schumer, joe bide ten, Congress Overwhelmingly passed the secure fence act which was supposed to provide 700 miles of double layered fencing and in areas where thats been dunn done its been very effective and congress immediately gutted that the next year and weve had about 36 miles total. And so weve got to get it right. Weve been toilg with this for decades lets get it right and do it. Now, mr. Camarota the examples of san diego suggest that if you do effective fencing or wall that could reduce illegal immigration much more than your estimate. Do you agree you took a very conservative estimate about how much illegal immigration a wall would prevent . Yes, i think it is pretty conservative. The experience with walls is that they do wherework where they are but where theyre not people tend to goi rund them and there are as you say visa overstays. But where they are, yeah, they work quite infectively, thats for sure. Now, the strain on the taxpayer, people come illegally, their medical costs that get born by the taxpayer usually . Right, that can often happen. People go to an emergency room or otherwise free clinics thats a big area of costs. Education cost. Education is another one. We spent about 17,000 on each child in the United States, very, very roughly and you have maybe over a million illegal immigrant children in u. S. Schools. And Law Enforcement people say well people who come illegally dont necessarily commit crimes at a higher or lower level, and i dont know if thats true but even if is thats taxing Law Enforcement because those would be people if the border was secured that Law Enforcement wouldnt have to worry about at all, correct. Perfectly reasonable. The datas all over the place on that. Its not clear whether illegals have a higher crime rate. But i think as weve heard today, thats not the point, is it. If someones not even supposed to be in the country and they kill someone, that is clearly preventible and i think thats what frustrates the American People so much. Now, your studry it doesnt even take into account, i dont think, the noneconomic costs associated with having a pore rouse border and allowing illegal immigration. I mean, drugs, Human Trafficking, obviously the crime as weve seen, thats reno not reflected at all in your study, correct . I didnt include any of the costs for the children of Illegal Immigrants too. Theres reel clear lit victims weve wooen seen, theres immense cost that goes with that. So you think that your study, its probably conservative in terms of the number of illegal entries that it will that it could prevent, but tls its also conservative in many of the benefits because youd be talking about drugs, youd be talking about crime, youd be talking about reducing other bad things associated with having a porus board, he, is that fair . I think thats fair. A lot of these things you cant put a dollar amount on, as weve heard. Now, in terms of paying for it, are there ways, wlr its with senator cruz suggested by taking the seized drug asset money which is billions and billions of dollars, others have said take some of the illegally obtained refundable tax credits thats 7, 8 billion, you could save. Do you agree there are ways where that money can be identified and used that dont necessarily involve just having the american taxpayer pay for it directly. Yes. Youve mentioned two, the other is the tax remittances that flow out of the United States at tens of billions of dollars, put a tax on them and you could generate income as well. Now, mr. Judd, i think you agree that when you have areas where these barriers have been effective like san diego, obviously the bread and butter is still going to be you guys out there, but it real little is a force multiplooig plier because one of your agents can then cover a much larger territory if you do have that barrier, is that right. With a barrier, itsest matded that all we need is one agent per three, four linear miles. Without a barrier i need one agent perlin yar mile. So the costeffectiveness in the barrier in manpower is its extremely successful. So we need to we absolutely need to look at where we have to put the wall and it will allow us to dictate where crossings take place and allow us toing more effective. And the secure fence act had 700 miles out of the 2000, do you think that makes sense . Is that probably enough . I dont think anyones saying you need 2,000 miles, correct . I do. In fact, chief ron patel low recently calm out and said the exact same thing that ive been saying for two years, that we fleed it in strategic locations and again that 700 miles is about what it is. Now, you are a critic of the catch and release policies of the obama administration, its fair to say . Yes. So doing a lot of things we need to support you is important, but you can do all those things and if theres an administration in power that doesnt really have the will or that ties your hands behind your back, then you could have the best of intentions its going to be difficult to get this problem right, is that accurate zbli it is. Whats extremely frustrating is to cross the border at a place other than a to cross a border other than a point of enindustry a crime. What were effectively doing through the catch and release program, were driving the criminal smuggling operations and incentivizing to allow the individuals to cross the border. Every single one of these individuals could legally present themselves at a port of entry but its the smugglers forcing them to cross at places other than a port of entry which then puts extreme pressure on us and it takes people out of the field which then opens up holes which allows smugglers to bring across even higher cost value traffic such as heroin and potentially even people from middle eastern countries. So its a huge problem. So you think in this terms of the issues of not having a secure border, you think the drugs are coming across illegally and thats a major issue . I know we are. If we think that more drugs are coming ate cross the ports of entry were absolutely wrong. All you have to do is pull agents out of the field and thats what smugglers are doing by asking for asylum. Were creating holes and we are allowing the smugglers to bring across their higher value products such as heroin. Ms. Gibboney, thank you for your testimony. And this is something thats very personal to you, to get this border under control. Correct . Absolutely. I think you have said before that youd be happy to take your own shovel and work to build it eastbound in the 120degree heat. I was just going to say that. Yes. I would be happy to go and work on the wall myself. I know its not feasible but trust me. I would be there. And that is because you dont want to see anyone else to be in your shoes some day. Never. I its such a pain. Its so difficult. Especially days like today. That i dont even wish it upon the guy that murdered it upon my son. I dont wish this pain on his family. Thats how painful. I mean, you would think i would wish him a lot of harm. I dont. But nobody should have to suffer through Something Like this. Because if my son would have been sick, i would have resigned myself that it was his time to go. That it was gods wishes. But my sons life was cowardly taken. And i think you also mentioned in your testimony, and thats an issue well have to come on in a different hearing, i think, but your sons murderer is in prison, will eventually get out. Youre worried that california may not notify i. C. E. And weve had jameel shaw here who is also from california, you probably know jameel. Yes. And you had, you know, illegal aliens. They were involved in criminal activity. Released by the state and then murdered jameels son. We had casey chadwick, her mother her last year who you had a guy from haiti who was illegally in the country. Served a sentence for manslaughter. I think it was 12, 13 years. Connecticut i. C. E. Did not send him back, released, and then he killed casey. So thats going to be an issue i think that were going to have to get right. If you know somebody has served a sentence, theyre not here legally, releasing them into society to me puts people at grave risk. So i think youre right to be concerned about it. We want to work with you to make sure these states are working with i. C. E. So we are not letting dangerous people. Ive gone over my time. I will give indulgence to my friend from california. Ill recognize him now. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would really mr. Judds comments earlier and to the degree you can help us with this and your members, it would be wonderful if we could get, knowing the passion involved, i dont want to put words in your mouth, but your original testimony to depoliticize as much as possible, having spent a good deal of time when i was in the state legislature in california researching public works projects that are socalled mega projects, thats any project over a billion dollars, they are just fraught with concerns from an implementation standpoint. Your point about where it is. So it would be my wish that perhaps it is an opportunity for us in a dispassionate, nonpartisan way, look at just, the engineering and from the security experts, the best return on investment. And to that regard it at least has to be considered where the money will come from, whether from other parts of Homeland Security, or whether it will come from nih, which has equally compelling parent stories about people losing their lives because we havent invested there. So that is an overall context. First, mr. Chairman, i would like unanimous consent to enter into the record the cato report that mr. Camarota referenced, not the most liberal organization in the world. The title of the report is the border wall cannot pay for itself so i would like to ent that into the record. Without objection. Ms. Gibboney, the comments about california, being from california, with the Governors Office and the attorney general and other Public Safety people, we have differences of opinion, respectfully, but to the degree that its appropriate, i would like to also work with the chairman to make sure that we communicate appropriately with you about the release of your sons the perpetrator of that crime. So im happy to work on that with the difference that we have, some differences of opinion, but as appropriate, i would be happy to. Mr. Sodder, you have a lot of experience in this field. As i said earlier, on big public work projects, you usually get a needs assessment, an extensive need assessment. Risk assessments. You let the engineers do their job, tell them what the objective is, you let the experts like mr. Judd and Homeland Security have their input. With your extensive experience, are we at that point yet to go ahead and make a judgment, that this is realizing there are duelling ideological think tanks that are offering their own perspective, including some that you would have an unexpected like the Cato Institute view of it . I think we are at a position right now to know for a fact that a federal program like this will have massive cost overruns. We know the wall, the estimates, whether its 15 billion, 22 billion, 70 billion, we actually have no idea what a wall would actually cost. The thing i do now is that i mean, im with mr. Judd in the sense of, i think the way to secure the border is to have the right blend of Different Things that we do, whether it be Border Patrol personnel, Technology Sensors and drones, fencing, also investigations, as well. Investigations of Human Smuggling Networks and financial facilitators of those networks. You have to have a blend of all of them. And i think the fallacy i think of the wall is to think that, well, this is just one size. Its going to fit all, well just put a giant great wall across the southern border, except for the ports of entry. Lets not forget the ports of entry and the stuff that comes in through the points of entry. Mr. Stodder, though, my comment is just to the dispassionate analysis from Law Enforcement experts, Homeland Security experts and engineers. Has there been any of the Due Diligence done that you would expect for similar public works programs . Not that im aware of. I think its something that absolutely needs to be done. We need to focus. I think we need to get the pros from the Border Patrol and from i. C. E. To get to think through, whats the right blend in any particular area. Im as strongly enforcementoriented as the next person, having served in both bush and obama. I do think an it could be additional fencing is required in other areas, strategic locations. It did a world of good in san diego. Certainly. I think the idea of putting a wall across the entire border i think without further, deeper analysis is misguided. I have two quick quotes from you that i want you to respond to, both about the sentiment expressed here in these quotes in regards to illegal immigration. And drug enforcement. Homeland security john kelly recently stated that the threat against aviation, quote, keeps me literally awake at night. Yet President Trump has proposed cutting the Transportation Security Administration budget including a program that supports local police at airports. The other quote i would like you to respond to is, in february vice admiral charles ray of the coast guards Deputy Commander of operations stated, quote, as a result of lack of resources last year, we were prevented from getting over 580 known smuggling events and those shipments made their way north. Could you respond to those two quotes . Sure. Let me take them in reverse order. First, with charlie ray, who i know well, good guy, i think the idea of cutting the coast guard in order to build a wall is kind of insane because if you think about it from the perspective of we think about in Homeland Security we think about the three borders of the United States. Northern border, southern border, and the caribbean border. The more we reduce the resource availability of the coast guard, we are opening ourselves up to mass migrations from haiti, from cuba, and also for a shift in Drug Trafficking from the current place where it is, which is the u. S. mexican border, back to the days of 1980s and 90s of movement through the caribbean. We have to make sure the coast guard is adequately resourced to handle our third border. With regard to tsa, the cuts to tsa im the first one to admit that certainly tsa requires some, you know, evaluation to sort of determination, you know, where it spends its money. But yeah, the reduction of expenditure on the viper teams to help state and local Law Enforcement not only in airports but also surface transportation is perhaps unwise. Just a concluding comment. Mr. Chairman, having spent some experience on this, its always dangerous i think for us in elected office, irrespective of party, to jump to conclusions about criminality and how to stop it. That used to be needs to be evidencebased. We have some bipartisan agreements on that in other fields. I would suggest this is one of those opportunities, to be driven by evidencebased research, in addition to the engineeringbased aspects of this process thats peerreviewed. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to waive on mr. Grothman from wisconsin. Hes not a member of the subcommittee. He wanted to participate. Without objection, so ordered. The chair will now recognize mr. Comer for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i have to say that during the twoweek recess, i spent the whole time traveling the district. I have a very, very wide district, very rural. Six hours from east to west in my district in southern kentucky. I had ten town halls, and i dont know how many meetings and how many conversations with people, and the wall always came up. And there is overwhelming support in my district to build the wall. And thats something that people expect to get done in the very near future. So i had a couple of questions, first for mr. Judd. Would the border wall have mitigated the terrible Opioid Epidemic were seeing sweep cross america, especially in my rural district in kentucky . It absolutely will because, again, we will then dictate where illegal border crossings take place if we build the wall. How many criminal gang members have crossed into the u. S. In the past five years . And do you think the border wall could have reduced that number . I dont think it could. I know it could. When we catch these individuals that are coming here and asking for asylum, one of the biggest problems that we face is when we have them in the detention facilities, theyre actually recruiting while theyre in our custody. Theyre recruiting other individuals to join their gangs. And thats an extreme concern. Mr. Judd, i saw in the newspaper, the Senate Democrats assume a per mile cost of 36. 6 million per mile. Do you agree with that cost estimate . I dont. Im not an expert on what the cost will be. I can just just tell you how effective it will be. What i can tell you is that 9 11 cost the government trillions of dollars. We have to a billion dollars, thats a drop in the bucket compared to what happened on 9 11. Obviously thats a concern of every taxpayer and every person that has any type of conservatism, is the cost. When you look at the total cost, will all areas of the southern border require new fencing as some of the opponents have claimed . It will. It will. Were going to build a proper wall, im an advocate of fencing. And again, it was a bipartisan effort that passed that. But the problem with fencing is its defeatible. I can bring up a welding torch and cut holes in the fence. In fact, thats what happens. I have a brother who was a Border Patrol agent for two years and all he did every day was patch holes in the fence. So a wall is cannot be defeated the way a fence can be defeated. What other factors i guess this is for anyone on the panel. What other factors can have an impact on the total cost of the border wall . Are there things that can be done to build the wall cheaper, where we still have the maximum security impact . What other factors would impact the cost or could impact the cost . Anybody . I mean, obviously, one of the key questions is, what are the most vital areas, right . Theres parts of the border that are not likely to become major smuggling routes, at least for individuals. So we dont need a wall or even a lot of fencing there, maybe just a vehicle barrier. So i certainly dont think that we need a giant wall across the whole border. Thats not my position. My position is that there are places where a wall and fencing barriers are vitally important and we dont have them. And weve authorized it in the past. That seems crazy to me. I think thats where we should start at the very least. To address your question, one of the things that i have been impressed with, and again, this is not trying to take a political stance, im independent myself. But one thing that i have been impressed with is ive had the opportunity to meet with President Trump facetoface on four occasions, i had a telephonic conversation with him specifically about this issue. And one of the things is, yes, hes come in with preconceived notions but one thing i have been very impressed with was as a businessman he has been willing to listen to the experts and what theyve had to say. What his ultimate decision will be, i dont know. But i have had the opportunity to let him know its not 2,000 miles worth of wall. Its strategic locations. And hes been open to that idea. Im hoping thats, in fact, where he will go because that will drive the cost way down. Thats great. Just to add to that a little bit, the unpredictable factor in terms of how you construct a wall like this or even fencing in areas is environmental issues, private lands, all kinds of litigation that could come out of this. I think we shouldnt in any big project like that, we cannot be pollyannaish about how long this is going to take and how much it will cost. Because of the other factors that could go into it. And i have huge concerns about the private property aspect of it. I would agree with that. My time is up, that you are, mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. Ms. Demmings for five minutes. Thank you so much, mr. Chairman. And thank you for having this very important hearing. First of all, i want to just say to mrs. Gibboney how sorry i am for your loss. I am the mother of three sons. And i cant imagine what it would be like to not have those hugs and talks and interaction with them. So im so sorry. Thank you. For your loss. I spent 27 years in Law Enforcement at the Orlando Police department. And i can tell you, as a 27year veteran, ive worked my share of homicides, aggravated assaults, rapes, child molestations, kidnappings. More than i care to admit. And i wish that i could have simply put up a wall to stop it, because i would have done that. A question that came up earlier, what i can also tell you, without hesitation, is that the overwhelming majority of the people we arrested in those cases were not undocumented immigrants. And so, the Ranking Member is absolutely correct that we do, as we keep america safe, it is my number one priority, we have to be careful that we are not generalizing a Certain Group of people from a certain place. If we are committed to doing this correctly. Mr. Judd, i also want to thank you for your service. This is not a political issue. Its certainly not for me. Im going to believe that its not for you. You talked about how important effective border barriers, areas are. Just to kind of clear up this for me in my mind, candidate trump, when he talked about the wall, said its going to be hard and concrete, made out of rebar and steel. And thats not the wall that you support; is that correct . Actually i absolutely support a wall that can be that is not defeatable. Again, i this wall, made out of steel rebar and it cannot it has to be a wall that cannot be defeated by welding torches. We faced that problem on a daily basis today so, yes. It has to be an impenible wall. So you would support a wall that was 2,000 miles no. A concrete wall absolutely not. Made out of steel and rebar . No. I support a wall in strategic locations which will then allow us to dictate where illegal border crossings take place. When you say us, who exactly are you referring to . The United States Border Patrol. Okay. All right. Mr. Stodder, i understand, of course, that you have worked on border issues in the department of Homeland Security for 15 years under 2 administrations. Thank you so much for your service, as well. And you stated that we have greatly improved our Border Security against the most pressing threats to Public Safety, including terrorism, transnational organized crime. And we have established for far greater control over illegal immigration on our southwest border than at any other time over the last four decades. Can you explain in more detail i dont think we can talk about it enough, how weve greatly improved our Border Security . In other words, what has changed . Sure. What did we not have four decades ago that we now have . What i can speak to, since i served in the Bush Administration in the years after 9 11, and then also serving the obama administration, theres been a bipartisan con ssensus, both administrations and in congress, to strengthen border enforcement. We have tripled the size of the Border Patrol. We have deployed sensors, aerial drones across the border. We have put fences, secure fences, in important strategic locations at the border. Are more fences needed in different places . I dont doubt it. But i think thats a question for the local Border Patrol sector chiefs to determine in their areas of responsibility what the right mixture of personnel, technology, and infrastructure really is. The other thing is i think i. C. E. , u. S. Immigration and customs enforcement, are fair more strong going after the financial facilitators. So the investigative capabilities are also fairly strong. Here is the other thing to focus on here. Number one, with regard to mexican immigration, you have to think in terms of the undocumented population in the United States, which is declining. Its around 11 Million People right now, down from about 12 Million People ten years ago. Less than half of that population now, Just Announced the other day, is mexican. So that population is now mostly visa overstays. Its less than half is the mexican population. And its declining. The numbers of people who are coming across the border now, the Border Patrol is regularly apprehending 4,000 people at the border every year, down from 1. 6 million when i started back in the Bush Administration after 9 11. About half of those people are from central america. So the Central Americans are coming up, and those folks, either apprehended by the Border Patrol or by the office of Field Operations at the port of entry, most of those folks are actually claiming asylum because theyre fleeing violence or other difficulties in central america, or theyve been told to do so by the smugglers. Some are legitimate, some are not. But all of them are entitled to a day in court in their immigration courts if they pass a credible fear screening, and about 90 of them have passed a credible fear. What i would say is we have become far more effective at policing the flow of people coming from mexico. Mexico has changed economically so more people are staying home. Fewer people are coming. But we still have Serious Problems and the serious challenge were facing now in terms of migration is central america. Thats straining our resources because people are claiming asylum, but there are 500,000person backlogs in our immigration courts. Thats what causes cpp and i. C. E. To have to release those folks into the United States pending their claims. If we were to spend the first billion dollars i would spend in border enforcement probably would be going towards the immigration courts, to staff those courts so we can actually expeditiously and efficiently process asylum claims, so we dont have to have the people in the United States for the five, six, seven years it takes, often, to process an asylum claim. That would send a message to the smugglers i think to say this is not a free pass to come to the United States. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for the additional time. I yield back. You mentioned asylum. Do you think that Congress Needs to relook at how some of those statutes operate so that we can kind of not incentivize so many people to come in and make claims that really arent meritorious . Its a difficult question. The way the system works right now is people, kids who come unaccompanied dont have to come through the credible fear screening. They just come in, if theyre coming from central america, not from mexico. The issue of whether credible fear should be looked at again i think is a difficult, tricky question because i think the reality is, the stakes of being wrong, of a uscis, citizenship officer being wrong, can result in certain circumstances of somebody going back to el salvador or honduras and being killed. So the stakes are high in terms of how we think about the credible fear test. Now, having said that, i think the statistics are of people coming from el salvador and honduras and to a lesser extent guatemala about 95 of them make it through credible fear screening. And the immigration courts, 50 or 60 . Let me recognize mr. Duncan for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you most of all for the great job you do chairing this subcommittee. Let me say, ms. Gibboney, ive noticed some members of the congress and many of these saturday night comedians try to make jokes about the wall. Its not much of a joke to you, is it . No, it is not. I dont see whats funny about it because they have not been affected personally because if they would, they would think differently, also. I wish that everybody could have heard your testimony. Ive always heard that the worst thing that can ever happen to you is to outlive one of your children. Certainly, you have our condolences. Let me say this. You know, some people imply or even say that if we try to enforce our immigration laws that its cruel or somethings wrong with it. But, you know, i notice in some of the staff material, president netanyahu of israel, he said President Trump is right. I built a wall along israels southern border. It stopped all illegal immigration, great success, great idea. Somehow he can do it and not be criticized, but if we try to do it theres something wrong with it. Also, i noticed in the material ive been given from the staff, i mean, even mr. Stodder said the border works in certain strategic locations, and i think that makes a lot of sense to me. I know the material weve been given says that just before they built the first wall in san diego there were 700,000, approximately 700,000 apprehensions. And this last year it was down to 31,000. So a wall has been very, very effective there. You know, the situation is this. You know, theres two statistics that tell the whole story. With only 4 of the worlds population, we buy almost 22 of the worlds goods. We have a standard of living far beyond what anybody else has. So you can certainly understand why hundreds of millions, maybe even a couple of billion want to come here. And the second statistic is that 58 of the people in the world have to get by on 4 or less a day. I mean, most people in this country dont realize how blessed we are, how fortunate we are. And you can understand why so many people want to come here. And we sympathize with all these people. Americans are the kindest, most general us, most sympathetic people in the world. But we simply cant open our borders and just take in everybody who wants to come because our hospitals, our jails, or sewers, our schools, our roads, our whole infrastructure, not to even mention our economy, we couldnt handle the rapid influx of people that would come here. And theres no other country that faces the problem that we face to the extent that we face it. And so, its not cruel. Its just common sense. Dr. Camarota, the staff says that theres a recent National Academy for Sciences Study that estimated the net fiscal drain of each illegal crosser was 74,000. 74,772. Are you familiar with that study . Let me be clear. What the National Academy did was, was calculate the drain and or fiscal benefit, if somebody is very skilled by education by each immigration. What i did was apply that to the skill level of Illegal Immigrants to come up with an estimate, how big it would be. So i took their estimates by education and looked at the education of the illegals, and it comes to about 75,000 per illegal. Also, weve been provided with figures that the irs is paying out billions in improper payments to Illegal Immigrants every year through the use of refundable tax credits. Have you looked at that . Yes, particularly the refundable portion of the additional child tax credit. The irs a while ago made the determination that they could pay that out and didnt have to worry so much about illegal status. So yes, they are clearly paying hundreds of millions if not billions out to Illegal Immigrants. Theres no question. Its also the case that they pay some out in the earned income tax credit but less. Well, final question. Let me ask you this. For years, weve seen this figure, and even in the material that weve been given for this hearing, that says 11 million Illegal Immigrants. Almost everybody i talk to estimates that its way more than that. Way more. And that were really probably talking 20 or 30 million. But youve studied this in detail and i havent. Tell me what you feel is the accurate or most accurate figure in that regard. Its important to recognize that it is illegal and difficult to measure. There is a margin of error. If youre asking me, i think its 10 to 12 million. Could it be a little bit higher . Yes, it could be. But briefly, the way we arrive at a number like that, we know about how many legal immigrants there should be in the United States and then we look at the data the Census Bureau that collects that identifies immigrants. We subtract that out and we get a residual. That number is about 10 million. Then you think, maybe were missing 10 based on some other research. But it could be 20 . But you can see how it doesnt get up to 20 million. Is the Census Bureau data itself any good . Im going to argue yes because when we look at what the data shows us about School Enrollment or we look at what the data shows us about birth, it pretty well lines up with administrative data. So i think that those estimates are right. Let me stop you and ask one last thing. How many millions have we allowed to immigrate legally over lets say the last 50 years . The total foreignborn is about 45 or 46 million today in 2017 and about 10 or 12 of that is illegal. So there are about 33 million, 32 million legally people present in the United States who are foreign born. Some of them become citizens. But that total foreign born legal is about 32 million. My point is no other country in the world has even come close. True. In allowing people to immigrate legally as we have. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. The time has now expired. The chair will now recognize our guest from wisconsin. For five minutes. Okay. I was going to do a followup. Ill ask you briefly. Youre confident. How long has that 11 million figure been out there, how long, if i would ask you or somebody in your position, how many people are here illegally, would we hear the 11 million figure . We think its been around that number for like eight years now because every year we take the American Community survey or the Current Population survey and try to estimate it. What was it in the year 2000 . I think the general estimate is somewhere around 8 million. Im not sure thats right but okay. Im going to ask you guys some questions as far as the overall cost. Is there any estimate out there the amount of money were paying every year for health care for people who are here illegally . Do you want to count like u. S. Born children or just the illegal immigrant . Because a lot of children of Illegal Immigrants are signed up for medicaid. So that would be a big cost. Either estimate. Its several billion dollars a year for treatment for the insured because the illegal population makes up a large share of the uninsured. Several billion. What, 5 billion . Yes, that would be a perfectly okay. I know its difficult to get records. Are there any estimates, the degree to which incomebased transfer payments are going to people illegally . I hear anecdotal evidence from income maintenance workers in my district that they are getting people they thought are illegal coming here. Do we have an estimate on the total amount of what we call Welfare Benefits going to people here illegally . We do have some estimates. Remember that an illegal immigrant can collect benefits on behalf of a u. S. Born child. If we include that, then those numbers certainly run, you know, to over 10 billion. If you count things like the u. S. Born child on medicaid. A family, for example, can get food stamps even though the parents are illegal because the food stamps come in the name of the u. S. Born children. Theres a lot of that going on. Dont you believe that there are a lot of people, even adults, who are signing up for benefits who may not be citizens . May not be citizens . Sure. There are a lot of legal immigrants who also access the welfare system. I could give you my estimates for those things. I dont have them right in front of me. But yes. Legal immigrants make extent use how about Illegal Immigrants . Illegal immigrants, yes. We know from the survey of income and participation, where they pretty well identify themselves as illegal based on questions, that more than half of all households headed by Illegal Immigrants have someone in that household signed up for some kinds of benefits. Typically the noncash programs. Could you give me the total amount, if you had to throw out a number there . Total amount that Illegal Immigrants are receiving in income transfers, cash, and noncash type stuff . Right. Oh, you know, that would be well over 10 billion, at least. More than that. Most of it from the federal government. And of course most of that is going to u. S. Citizens, ultimately. Right . It depends on how you view it, right . If you have a family getting food stamps, the parents certainly can feed themselves on those food stamps. If the family lives in Public Housing because they have one u. S. Born children, which is certainly allowed, then the parents are benefiting. So it depends on how you want to calculate or do that. But most systems dont cut off u. S. Citizen children from Welfare Benefits. Thats right. Thats why they can use those programs for their u. S. Born children. Its hard to get the numbers. Do you know how many people in our criminal justice system, how many people in local jails, prisons, are Illegal Immigrants . Do we have hard numbers on that . Incomplete numbers. Substantial . I mean, when i hear talking to people who run these facilities, they think its a significant situation, even in wisconsin. But do you have any estimates . Remember, the federal government is paying out lots of money already through the scap program. That might be a place to begin, to look at what share of inmates in jails and prisons. So its big. Ill give you a question. Do you know what the age of consent is in other countries around the world . I know its less than u. S. I dont know. Does anyone know what the age of consent is in mexico, for example . Mr. Stodder, youve been involved in this area for quite a while. Do you know . I dont know the age of consent in mexico. Thats shocking. Well, obviously, when we have people coming from another culture its important, you know, they adapt to our culture. How long were you involved in this game, mr. Stodder, that you dont know that . The age of consent in mexico . Yes. Its never been presented to me, to know what the age of consent is in mexico. I know the age of consent in the United States is 18. It various from state to state, but yes. Yeah. California. 18 in some areas, 16 in others. Isnt it age 12 in many parts of mexico . Do you view that as a potential problem when people come into this country, men come into this country and are used to living in a culture in which the age of consent is 12 . Should people talk about that . Should people be educated about that . Whats the relevance of it . What are you driving at . I didnt im just saying from a Law Enforcement standpoint, absolutely, because what were doing is were taking people into our country, people are coming to our country that have a different set of rules, and theyre trying to take those sets of rules and apply them here in the United States when thats wrong. Again, were talking about illegal acts. Were not talking about legal acts. Were not talking about legal immigration. Were talking about illegal immigration. When illegal aliens come to the United States, and thats why ms. Gibboney and ms. Espinoza are here today, is because these individuals come from countries that do not enforce their laws. Because they were allowed to break their laws, they think they can break any law and they continue to perpetrate more crimes upon u. S. Citizens. Mr. Stodder cant figure it out, but you see a danger in people coming to this country who dont know what our laws are with regard to the age of consent and may think the laws in this country are the same as the laws in other countries. And for those of us who care about women or young girls, we might view that as a concern. We do. In fact, all you have to look at is what happened in the school in virginia where that young girl was raped by two illegal two people who crossed the border illegally who were ultimately released under the catch and release program, which is why i am so anti, against the catch and release program. But we see that people who break our laws willfully then try to apply their set of rules that they brought from their country into our own country. And that creates a huge drain on Law Enforcement. Not just a physical drain but a drain on the victims. Yes. Absolutely. And i do want to state also that not enforcing our laws encourages more breaking of the laws. And we certainly do not want to import more crime. I dont think theres any evidence to indicate that kids under the age of 18, whatever their age, whatever the age of consent in their home countries, makes them more or less likely to commit crimes once theyre here. I think the data is not there. I dont think thats what the data says. The one thing i will say about the age of consent that is important to think about, for this congress to think about, is with regard to the Central American unaccompanied minors who are coming here. That when they if theyre are under 18 and theyre coming unaccompanied im running out of my time here. Im well past my time and the chairman has indulged me. I just will say it concerns me if people are not being informed what our culture and our laws are, who are coming here from other countries, who think its perfectly okay to have sex with a 13yearold, if thats the culture theyre coming out of but thank you. The gentlemans time has expired. Ill recognize myself for five muptds. Mr. Judd, its been reported there have been a dramatic drop in illegal crossings over the past several months. Do you attribute that to the new posture being utilized by the Trump Administration and secretary kelly . I know it is. In fact, when we interview these individuals that are currently crossing the border its they know that the laws are going to be enforced. The simple promise that the laws were going to be enforced have driven down. I must warn you. Were in a honeymoon period. We have to continue to enforce laws because if we dont, illegal immigration is going to go back up. Can i say one quick thing about that . What im interested about this drop is, look, conditions havent changed in central america, just a lot fewer people have come. What that reminds us is migration is a choice. Peoples lives might be difficult, but the fact is they make a choice to come. Things havent changed. A lot of people say, look, people are compelled to come, they have no other option. But just the president s rhetoric mostly has affected peoples behavior. Imagine if we follow it up with actual policy. I think its too soon to make a judgment on that. I think the other way of let me just, i got a couple of things i want to get to. I appreciate it. Mr. Judd, crime on the border, a real problem . Its a huge problem. In fact, if you look at Border Patrol agents, we are assaulted at a rate higher than any other Law Enforcement agency in the entire United States. Yes, border crime is a huge issue. Because i think mr. Stodder had mentioned the cartel leaders, theyre not exactly crossing the border. But does that mean that the cartels arent a major problem on the border or do you think they are . No, i know the cartel cartels, when i joined the Border Patrol in 1997, almost 20 years ago, we had mom and pop smuggling organizations. That does not happen anymore. Every single facet of crime is controlled by very, very dangerous cartels, pathologically dangerous. They have no regard for human life whatsoever as we currently see in mexico. Unfortunately, that is starting to spill over into the United States because they operate here in the United States now, whereas is they didnt do that 20 years ago. Dr. Camarota, let me ask you this. You agree that there clearly are a number of immigrants, legal immigrants, i think, who have a very positive Economic Impact on our society . Especially in the fiscal area, the most educated immigrants are definitely a fiscal benefit. Paying more in taxes than they use in services. But that doesnt describe the typical illegal immigrant. So theres a difference between the people coming through the legal channels. It may not always be enforced, but our laws are not to be a public charge, they have to support themselves, correct . That is the law, although its defined in a very narrow way, so its not that meaningful. Youre talking about people who are going through obviously unauthorized channels, and theres even a difference between the visa overstays versus the Border Crossers. The Border Crossers would have even less skills. They would be the least educated. Okay. Ms. Espinoza, youve seen a variety of these issues or these tragedies over many, many years, and youve been an activist. Can you just kind of crystallize for us the importance of this issue and how it affects some of the human lives that youve been able to work with over these many years . Yes, mr. Chairman. Thank you. What troubles us most is that all of these crimes and killings are preventible. And we only deal with the killings of americans. However, child molestation and rape is very high, as well. You can see stats in north carolina. And what is also very troubling is the fact that our own victims, american victims, are misguided through the system. And agnes here was not allowed to give an impact victims impact statement. So securing the border and enforcing laws, and i am for border wall and fencing just like mr. Judd here. And i want to say also you agree with i think most of the witnesses, you dont need to do a 2,000mile one, because there are some areas correct. So you basically do it in areas where it would stop the crossing. Yes, sir, thats common sense. I dont want this issue to be politicized. Im a former democrat. My father was born in mexico. Ive been in the Strawberry Fields since i was 8 years old. So this is not a political issue. When my husband and i started this remembrance project, we looked at the issue. It was about an officer in houston, texas, who was shot by an illegal alien and there was a lawsuit brought against the city by his widow who was also a police officer, jocelyn johnson. And that was about sanctuary cities. Never heard of it before. We were not political. And here we are, and again, i just stress to you, just look at the issue here. Not politicize american lives. We have seen so much. And again, i appreciate your time. But i just cant tell you how much, if you would just please look at the issue and focus on keeping americans safe. Gnaw. Thank you. I appreciate that. Im going to recognize my friend from california for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and everyone who joined the hearing, including all of the witnesses. Im more taken by the fact that a lot of what were dealing with here is symptoms of a larger problem, and that is for this country and particularly for congress, to come up with thoughtful immigration policy and reform. In a global economy, where the world has clearly changed, as the chairman said in his introductory comments, things have changed. In this country, immigration and diversity is the basis of our success and our birth. And its been part of our success ever since. And differentiates us from every other country in the world. Having that having said that, we need to have immigration policy thats right, that protects against the kind of criminality that weve heard about, both personally and statistically today. I just want to read one quote, because senator moynihan many years ago in congress, across the other side of the aisle, once famously said, everybody is allowed their own opinions but not their own facts. For some weird reason we have now entered into a period, whether its alternative facts or not, we fight opinions, period. Thats why maybe this is an opportunity, mr. Chairman, to do what we have recently been able to do on a bipartisan level when it comes to the adjudication process and criminality, is to deal with evidencebased research. And if all of you could help us with that, knowing of your very strong passions and opinions and different perspectives, i think we would get to the point that the chairman started this committee on, is our failure to come up with an immigration policy thats effective, that allows people to come to this country, that the statue of liberty proudly welcomes, that want to come here and have opportunity, but under conditions that we set as a nation in terms of policy to both protect the citizens who are here now but enable those incoming immigrants to flourish as the founders wanted them to do. So i just wanted to read one quote because we get into these dueling perspectives of cost. From a New York Times Magazine Article that was actually quoted by the majority staff, basically corroborating mr. Camarotas comments and research. But it went on to say, and i quote, there are many ways to debate immigration but when it comes to economics, there isnt much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists of all political persuasions agree that immigrants, those here legally or not, benefit the overall economy, and that is not controversial. He goes on to quote from heidi scherholtz from the National Policy institute that says, quote, there is a consensus that on average the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small but clearly positive amount when it comes to immigration, end quote. Ill end my comments by saying, maybe this is an opportunity in this relatively poorly attended hearing that all of us could focus on the real issue, that we recognize that immigration is a great benefit to this country, and it is a basis of this countrys success. In california, there is plenty of research that shows that the reason were the sixth largest economy is because we have the most diversity and are the most reflective of the global economy. Having said that, we have to get immigration policy right so that the things that happened at least statistically can be reduced. I hope, mr. Chairman, this is the opening of a new chapter and a bipartisan effort to put our efforts to where its most effective. I thank the gentleman. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia, mr. Hice, for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Judd, let me begin with you. How did the construction of the multilayer border fence in san diego back in 96 impact illegal entry into the area . It moved illegal entry over to tucson, arizona, and it caused a huge impact. What i can tell you, representative hice, is that everywhere that we have built a fence, we have been effective. We have been effective in controlling where illegal immigration takes place which then allows me to be more effective in the number of illegal aliens that i take into custody. Do you have any idea how many apprehensions there have been, the difference from before the wall was built in san diego as to apprehensions now . Yeah, again, the high watermark was the very late 90s, early 2000s. And san diego was a fairly busy place. After the fences were built, the double layer fences, the effective barriers were built, illegal immigration dropped to next to nothing in san diego. And it all moved out to the locations where there werent physical barriers. Let me give you some figures that i found. And you can verify this for me. What we have seen is there were in 1996, prior to the barrier, there were 480,000 apprehensions in 1996. The most recent figures, 2016, there were under 32,000. Thats over a 93 decrease. And that is largely due to the enforcement posture which we took in san diego. Unfortunately, we didnt take that same enforcement posture in the other sectors such as tucson, arizona, so we drove everything out there. But since we have been taking those same types of postures, weve driven down illegal immigration in tucson, as well. So yes. What are some of the postures . I realize we cant positively quantify the effectiveness totally with the layered wall that has been built. But there is no doubt the correlation, the numbers have dropped drastically, over 93 , since it was put in place. But what other measures have been taken in san diego . Well, the most important measures that we took was not only did we build these barriers, but we promised that anybody that crossed in that particular corridor, we were going to detain them, keep them in custody, and we were going to hold them until they had their deportation hearings, whereas in other locations, if we took them into custody and there wasnt bed space with i. C. E. , we would then end up walking them out the door and letting them go and hope they would show up for their immigration a couple of years down the road. But in san diego, what we did is we used what was called the consequence delivery system, which then anybody that crossed through that corridor we would hold in custody and we would put them through deportation proceedings. Okay. Mr. Camarota, let me ask you, do you believe that a border wall would help us address the issue of Human Trafficking . Yes. I would second what mr. Judd was saying. If fencing barriers wall in key places could make an enormous difference as a force multiplier and would help us interdict trafficking. Have these discussions come up in various communities where youve had talks on this issue . Im not sure i understand. Do you mean have you brought this up at discussions you have had on the southwest border, specifically the issue of Human Trafficking . The agents ive spoken to when ive traveled down there all, like mr. Judd, seem to feel strongly about the wall being helpful. So it would help obviously in multiple ways, be it illegal individuals, Drug Trafficking, gangs, Human Trafficking, you believe it would be helpful across the border . Very helpful, sure. Mr. Judd, let me come back to you, because im intrigued with whats happened in san diego and your experiences overall. What other kind of technologies do you think would be implemented in addition to a physical barrier . First and foremost, i worked in the busiest sector, the tucson sector. Individually, i ran a team of agents, which was a mobile interdiction team. We were arresting a hundred illegal aliens a night, a hundred people per night. Those 100 people we were arresting, 300 people were getting away from us just simply because of the number of people coming across. When we started deploying technology such as drones, such as more sensors, better scope trucks that had radar on them, when we started deploying that and we became more effective, what we did was shifted the illegal immigration to other places that didnt have that. So what im going to tell you is that it has to be comprehensive because we cant just continue to shift the burden to different sectors. We have to sure. I get that. But youre talking everything from drones to virtual walls to more they all work. All of the above are necessary. They all work. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, mr. Chairman. I yield. The gentleman yields back. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony, very much appreciate it. A couple of things i think that we got from the hearing. Were not talking about a 2,000mile wall. Its going to be basically finishing the job of the 2006 secure fence act. Those are very important locations that can be a force multiplier. Doing that and reducing the flow can reduce burdens on taxpayers on the back end and can also reduce crime, which is obviously very important. Also these crime victims have stories to tell, and these stories need to be told. The tragedy is that the federal government is partly responsible for these things. And that really upsets me, and youve got to do better. This committee is going to monitor the cost of this thing. We dont want to we dont want to waste money. But im convinced that this can be done creatively where youre not just appropriating money but actually using some of the money thats seized or some of these other programs that are clearly running amok and diverting money, that was probably a better way to do it. And then i think, mr. Judd, physical security, just one aspect, important aspect, but just one. Youve got to support the Border Patrol. Weve got to have good policies so that people know the law is going to be enforced. And weve got to deal with this issue of people who are convicted criminals here illegally being released back into society rather than being sent back. We just kabt allow additional crimes to be committed at that point, and weve seen it time and time again. So i appreciate everybodys time and testimony. This is going to be an issue that the committee is going to continue to deal with. So thank you, and with that, this hearing stands adjourned. This week on news makers, utah congressman rob bishop who chairs the house Natural Resources committee, he talks about President Trumps executive order on national monuments, oil and Gas Development on federal lands, and the federal budget. News makers, this sunday at 10 00 a. M. And 6 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. This weekend on American History tv on cspan3, saturday night at 8 00 eastern on lectures in history, University Professor rhine hart on Victorian Era culture in the u. S. In the last half of the 19th century. These are the values that the victorians are promoting, restrain yourself. Dont give in to your urges and gluttony and desires all the time. Be modest. Dont brag and make yourself the center of attention. Work hard. Do not be lazy. At sock onll america, the 1984 film soviet active measures about the efforts to use forgery, bribery and the furthering of fake news. Time and again in the diplomatic pouch arrive and secret packages brought in my office and ill almost each time there will be some forgery there. And, you know, like in spy movies. Sunday at 6 30 p. M. Eastern, historians talk about their roles as expert witnesses for court cases. So as i see it, history is a sort of addon. Its a source of evidence or context to which most judges and lawyers turn to to the extent that its useful in a particular case. And then at 8 00 on the presidency, president ial historians on the most influential first ladies. Dolly madison who really shaped informal politics in washington, she really understood that at social gatherings you could get men to agree to what the president wanted to do or get two warring factions together over ice cream. For our complete American History tv schedule go to cspan. Org. Cspans washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. Saturday morning, robert, u. S. News world report managing editor of opinion talks about President Trumps first 100 days in office. Then in the spotlight on mag zone segment author and editor in chief will discuss the recent piece will discuss our recent piece examining key drivers of Health Care Costs be. Sure to watch cspans washington journal live at 7 00 eastern saturday morning. Join the discussion. This years food policy conference by the Consumer Federation of america featured the head of the fdas food safety center. She talked about food safety regulations. We hear about efforts to end hunger in the u. S. This is two hours. [ applause ] all right, so, thank you for the kind invitation. Its my real pleasure to be here. Thank you to cfaa for inviting me to come. I was asked to give an update on some of the activities that weve been doing at the center for food safety and applied nutrition, so ill try to do that in the brief time i have available. Theres so much going on, but i will try to highlight big