Transcripts For CSPAN3 Matthew 20240705

He he received his ph. D. From brown university, and hell be discussing most recent book, half american the epic story of africanamericans fighting in World War Two at home and abroad. Now to, join this this conversation this discussion is dr. Marcus cox marcus is a fellow with the jenny craig institute. And is also currently the dean of Fayetteville State University right outside beautiful fort north carolina. Oh the. Previously many of you know him from town here where hes associate dean of graduate studies xavier and a graduate ph. D. From northwestern an and an expert on africanamerican military history. And so its great to have these two amazing scholars and comrades on the stage with us today. And with that, marcus, ill turn it over to you. And sir, you much. Thank you so much. Thank you everybody for being here. Thank you, mike. And everyone, this is a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about whats happening in the United States and in particular what africanamericans. Im honored and very privileged to be up here with dr. Matthew delmont. Matt is going to start off and do a brief overview of his, and then im going to up with some few questions of my own, and then were going to open it up to the audience. So thank you very much being here, matt. Thanks for joining. Good afternoon, everybody. Let me start by saying how much of a privilege is to be here and thank mike and marcus for the nice introductions before being at dartmouth college, i was at arizona State University, set up to work with our colleagues at the National Museum and the really wonderful online masters in World War Two studies that theyve launched. And its been thrilling to see it develop. Even ive moved to dartmouth and i want to thank nick mueller for being kind enough to write an endorsement of new book. Thank you, nick. And i thank you. The audience being the last few days has been inspiring for me as a historian to be in the company of people who love history and love the history of World War Two. Its tremendous. And so i would give you a round of applause for everything youre doing. Yeah. To learn and this history. And then take about 10 minutes at the start here and give a kind of high level overview of the key arguments in. My new book that just came out last month, its called half american the epic story of africanamericans fighting water to at home and abroad. Id like to start with what led me to the project. So my last book project was africanameranewspapers, so i was going through historic newspapers like the chicago defender, pittsburgh courier and. One thing that struck me is when you look at the papers from the war years, you come across images like these this is from the minneapolis spokesman, which is the largest and longest running black in minnesota, where im from. These pictures are the kind of things id never really seen before. Im a historian of taught history of over to african history more than a decade. But these kind of everyday photos of the black men and women, more than a million who volunteered were drafted. The milita seeing these everyday average photos. It really blew me away. It made me curious because i came across first dozens of these and eventually hundreds. I started to wonder what more could be there . What more do we know about the black perspective on World War Two . Just about seven years ago, it sparked my curiosity led me to research this new book. The title of the book, half american, is taken from a letter. This man, james g. Thompson wrote. James thompson was a 26 year old in wichita, kansas. He writes a letter to the pittsburgh courier, which was the largest and most influential black and has a series of very pressing, probing questions, including should i sacrifice my life, live half american is america i know worth defending. And one thing i think about here is, the famous quote from historian stephen ambrose, who helped found and tried the vision, the museum. He said, one of the foundational ironies of World War Two is that the worlds greatest democracy, america went to fight the worlds greatest racist hitler with the third great army. Men and women like James Thompson were living irony. Hes writing this letter in december of 1941, after the of pearl harbor, knowing that he is about to get drafted into a segregated military, hes going to be asked to fight for potentially die for a country that doesnt yet treat him as a full citizen. And just to ground ourselves. Remember that the entirety of the war, the is segregated in the army. Initially black men cant serve in theyre put in to supply the disco rolls in the navy black men are only allowed to serve as mass attendance will serve officers aboard ships at the start of the war. The marine corps isnt allowing any americans to serve. Its that until you get the war, they get the Montford Point marines, the first group of marines, everything in military life is segregated down to the barracks, latrines, the dining facilities. The red cross is even segregating blood from blood donors, even though theres no scientific basis to do that. So thompson is asking a really powerful question matters to him and matters to hundreds of thousands of other black americans. The pittsburgh courier uses thompsons letter to launch what they call the Double Victory Campaign double d and becomes the rallying cry for black americans during the war. Theyre fighting for victory over abroad and victory over in home. Ec one of thing thats important is that its not just a rhetorical device. Its not just a slogan. Black people really need it. They really this as a two front battle. They want to do everything they can to help defend their country, to help win the military. But they know thats not enough. Its not enough to fight for freedom and democracy abroad and then come home to segregation, to come home second class citizenship. And so thats why i chose half america as the title, because it really speaks to what was on the minds of black americans at the time. Theres three key arguments that the book makes the is that from the africanAmerican Perspective, you have to start the chronology of World War Two before pearl harbor. This is not dissimilar to argument that Richard Overy makes in blood, in ruins if you looked at a black newspaper from the 1930s 30 to 3334, you see dozens of articles in editorials about the of fascism in europe. Black americans were among the first to recognize the really serious that hitler and the nazis posed not just to europe, but really to the world. Black newspapers covered mussolini and the italian invasion of ethiopia, 1935, and then they cover the spanish civil war and the rise of general franco. And so years before pearl harbor, black americs have already turned their focus to the rise of the war in europe d are explicitly the Second World War has started and theyre eager to the fight against fascism. Langston hughes, the poet, is actually a war correspondent for the baltimore africanamerican, and he travels to spain to report on the more than 80 black americans who volunteered fight in the spanish civil war. And his primary question is why . One of the people he profiles is a woman, solaria kei. Shes a 23 year old from harlem who approached her life, travels spain, a country shes never been to before, to be a nurse, to help, help. People are being wounded in the spanish civil war. Im on the front lines when hes asked key and others, why did they go to spain . He says it was three things for her. The first is that shes a catholic. She self particularly political, but she saw a country in which people were in dire, dire of help and she had to help as a catholic and as a nurse, the thing is that she was deeply troubled by the italian invasion of ethiopia in 35. This was a huge deal. Black people in the United States, ethiopia was the only independent nation in africa in the 1930s, and for italy to invade it sent shockwaves across the country. And so she was motivated by that. And then thirdly she recognizes that the rise of fascism isnt just a danger to europe. She and others say, you know, this may be going on in spain now, maybe in germany now, but eventually its going to come. United states, we cant just treat this as a a foreign problem if they cant take a position of isolationism. So she is one of 80 who goes to fight in the spanish civil war. And so my book opens with that chapter trying to understand why these black americans went there. And so its important to start story before pearl harbor, the the second argument the book makes is that we have take seriously the military contributions of black troops. Its not enough to have them on the periphery of the story. We have to have them at the center of the story. Perhaps the most famous black american to serve during the war is doris miller, who emerges as one of the heroes of pearl harbor. Hes a mess attendant on the uss virginia. And as the ship is being torpedoed and bombed in the japanese attack on pearl harbor, miller performs heroically helps to rescue cuban crewmates. Hes makeshift stretcher to move his captain. And then when his return asks him, he above board. And even though he has no training and the ships machine he grabs one of the guns starts firing the japanese planes, potentially hitting one of them. Its a well known story, but its important to understand what this story meant for black americans that once millers name is released, it makes clear how foolish and wrongheaded the militarys policy of segregation miller, a young man from waco, who, despite being assigned a mess attendant where hes going to serve white officers once the tragedy pearl harbor happens, hes ready to to be in a combat role. And so black americans are asking in early 1942 is just give us the chance to fight, give us a chance tdefend our country, and well do everything we can to do that. One of the hardest parts about this book to write is reading the stories of dozens of black americans who went to volunteer after the bombing of pearl harbor. And theyre turned away. They go to the local branches, line up with hundreds of other white citizens. But these black citizens are turned away because at that point, the army doesnt have enough black units to accommodate them and theyre just like dumbstruck because want to defend their country. Theyre deeply deep and theyre asking, whats wrong with us . Whats wrong with our service, our citizenship that we cant defend our country. And so a lot the language youll see during the course of the war is again about this idea of double victory and. I think its nicely captured in these quotes from roy wilkins. He says, were fighting for a world which will not only not contain a but not hitlerism. Its not just enough to defeat hitler as a person, as a terrible figure, but the larger ideology thats not unique to nazi germany needs to be defeated. And then even more pointedly, he says, a lily white cannot fight for a free world. A Jim Crow Army cannot fight for a free world. And so if we fast forward ahead to 48, once president truman eventually signs the executive order to serve the military, thats after a decade intense pressure from civil rights activists roy wilkins, who understand that segregation makes no sense for military. Its trying to fight and win global war on this scale. If i leave you with one thing, its just that segregation made no sense for the military then to do everything and duplicate it was redundant. It served no strategic or tactical purpose. But americans understand that and they want to to do everything they can to push against it. The book also highlights stories of the black americans who performed valiantly in combat. No how it just to hear Edward Carter if i had to vote for one of the most fascinating soldiers to fight in World War Two, carter is right up there. Hes raised by a missionary family. And so he grows up in china and, india, when hes 15. He joins the Chinese National army to fight against japanese in shanghai. He later volunteers a volunteer in the spanish civil war. These are the Abraham Lincoln brigade. I mentioned his foot in hindi, mandarin in german. But when he volunteers for the army just before pearl harbor, they seem to be a cook and a quartermaster unit. And its a part of the illogic of segregation is it doesnt take advantage of the tremendous skill that black americans had. This is someone who had combat experience, someone who could speak multiple languages and is a sign as a cook. In 1945, when the army is desperate infantry troops, they issue a call for volunteers its one of the first times black americans a chance to join the infantry and participate in combat cadres. One in 5000 who volunteers that duty he gives up his rank as a Staff Sergeant to go back to a private just have the opportunity to be on the front lines and he performs amazingly that work hes attached to general patents. Trumps 12th Armored Division and as that unit pushing towards the rhine, he reads an attachment across an open field to position thats held by german soldiers. He takes heavy fire from small and from an anti antitank gun. He ends up killing six nazi troops, captures the other two. And then while wounded within these two, captured back to his unit because speaks german, he interrogates them in german to find out where other nazi units are hidden. And so he gets back to his unit. Hes able to report to his commander about other threats they might face. They push towards the rhine. Its a tremendous story. Its the kind of thing you cant you cant make up. Vernon and i should say, edward allen was posthumously awarded the medal honor of the 433 medals of honor that are awarded during World War Two. None are to black troops. Carter awarded the distinguished service cross, the armys second highest award in the 1990s. The army was an effort to reevaluate a number those words to see who might be upgraded to a medal of honor and carter was one of those vernon. Baker is the only one of the seven who still alive to receive that honor in person. And when he gets the call from the white house initially, hes very reluctant to go. He says, i did this in 1945 when i did. Im not sure if i want to receive this award 50 years later, but ultimately he does. Vernon baker was a lieutenant in the 92nd infantry. He took out three machinegun positions and led a battalion charge through headed through heavy fire and enemy minefields till the allies captured german stronghold the mountains of italy. In april 1945, he demonstrated extra heroism, even though it took the army 50 years to recognize that fact. When i favorite quotes from baker, he said i was an angry young man. We were all angry, but we had a job to do and we did. There are other troops are profiled in the book, including the man four marines were at the battles of jima and saipan, the 761st tank battalion who fought for. 160 days consecutively across four major campaigns, including the battle of the bulge. Theyre nicknamed the black panther tank battalion. And, of course, the Tuskegee Airmen were the wellknown black troops during the war. But of course, most black troops are not in frontline combat roles. And so one of the things i try to show in the book is that the roles that black troops played behind, the front lines, were equally important. When you see pictures of the channel crossing on dday like this, there was barrage balloons that are dangling above the ships were largely manned by black troops. The 320th barrage balloon battalion battalion, one of the soldiers in that year performed bravely. Dday was waverly woodson. He was a medic with the 320th barrage. But between battalion, hes wounded as the ship is coming to shore. He thinks the shrapnel wounds might kill him. The man next him helps bandage his wounds once. Once woodson gets to the beach, he sets up a medical aid station, and tends to wounds of more than 200 men. He places blood plasma. He has three amputations, just as tremendous tremendous work. The filmmaker john ford was on the beach in normandy doing a camera crew for the coast guard, and he reports the heroism of people like weaver and the black duck drivers who were there that day. There were 1700 black americans who are part of the dday invasion, even though theyre often not featured as part of that story. I think because everyone here, dday, just stood for day of the invasion. Theres still dday plus one, dday uswo. And it tru ithe weeks thereafter are equally crucial to the allies success unit. Thats really important to that. Part of the story is the red bull express group that was 75 black truck drive who led this, but a truck convoy that moved supplies from thbehes of normandy and from the terrible port through france and into germany. Eventually, as you know, theyre pushing their without the red bull express and the black men who were voting the trucks, it wod have been impossible for the armies to at the pace and with the flexibility that they could. Its one ofhe ways that the American Army is much more mobile and dynamic than the german army is during same that same time, the german army has ten times as many horses as do trucks. Right. Genera patton later says its these trucks, these two and a half ton jimmies that help the american the allies win the. And this was reported on at the time i always stewart was a war correspondent during the war and he described what he called miracle of supply. He said although poor battalions and troops are not generally regarded par with frontline combat troops, its a matter of record that no Group Soldiers in this theater has done more to make possible allied victory. They liberate no towns, flags, drink, no champagne or kiss happy girls. Yet when become critical, the first cry of the high command is give us supplies. So similar to ernie pyle, the white war correspondent, their black war correspondent, to figure prominently in the story people like Alice Stewart and anderson, dan burley, they were embedded with black units. And whats powerful about their reporting from 1944 and 1945 is they talk about this vital work that black folks are doing, even though those stories dont make it into our history textbooks. Now and so the arguments i try to make, they do make in the book is that World War Two wasnt just a battle of strategy. Well, it was a battle of supply. If we understand that we can get a clear perspective on the really vital roles that black troops played in helping america and the allies win the war. Its important to say that this wasnt just black men. There were black women who participated in the womens corps and then black women who were in Defense Industries at home. One group to highlight here was, the 688 central postal battalion, under the leadership of Major Charity adams. This was the largest of black men to serve in the war. They deployed to the european theater to england in late 1944, and their job was to distribute mail all the european theater, which is actually a really hard job because these units are moving constantly. And we had a number of men with very common names like johnny smith or, tom jones, they moved 65,000 pieces of mail per shift. And both black and white troops talked about how important that mail was in terms of morale. So these women helped to make possible, i can say definitively, having spent seven years working on this book, that its impossible to talk about. The history of World War Two from the American Perspective without talking about the role black americans played to help American Allies win the war at their central to the story. So the third argument the book makes is that when black veterans come back to the country theyre openly disrespected, but they fight back. They help to lead the Civil Rights Movement. I want to show you just one quote to give you a sense of the tenor of the time. This is James Eastland on the floor of the us senate from 1945. At the moment, america is declaring victory in World War Two. He says soldiers have had disgrace the flag of their country. The race is an inferior race. I am proud that the purest of white blood flows in my veins. I know that the white race is a superior. It is ruled the world. Its given us civilization. This responsible for all the progress on earth. And these should be deeply upsetting to us today. Imagine what they sounded like to black veterans, who had just fought for the United States to help defeat the nazis, who who had risked their lives and seen their buddies killed. And to come home to this ink. Its easy sometimes to talk about in American History or segregation in American History in the abstract. It was not at all abstract. These black veterans who came back and had to fear for their lives by veterans were murdered. The war because they were too proud of uniforms. They werent willing to accept that second class status. Thats why the double victory is important and blackmericans were dedicated to helping to win the war. They wanted win the military battle, but they also wanted to come home and live in a country they wouldnt be treated as half. Among the verans who come back and become leaders in the Civil Rights Movement. Medgar evers, he was part of that group of red bull express Truck Drivers was aargo loader and a port battalion for red bull express. His group landed at normandy just days after the dday. He was only 19 years old when he was there and his 21st birthday. Hes back at home, 1946, to cater mississippi. He leads a group of black veterans who try to to vote, only to be turned away, a white mob with guns, he said later i had been in omaha beach. All we black soldiers wanted was to be ordinary citizens. We foughng the war. America, mississippi included. Now, after the germans, japanese hadnt killed us. It looked as white missisppians would. Whatever it was fighting against us that people like James Eastland werent elected democratically. Mississippi 48 black population, but only 1 of black people were registered vote because of decades of intimidation. Racist tactics like the poll tax. Thats what evers was fighting against. He dedicated his life to civil rights helps investigate the lynching of emmett till in the 1950s until evers is tragically in 1963. So were thinking about what the greatest generation means. We have to include people like medgar evers, these black veterans. There were thousands of black veterans who came back to form the backbone of the Civil Rights Movement to highlight just a couple here, Rosa Williams worked alongside dr. Martin Luther King Jr to help found the southern christian leadership conference. Williams earned a purple heart for his in europe. Debbie johnson roundtree was in the womens army corps. She uses gi bill to attend Howard University law and found a firm in washington dc helps a win. Very important civil rights cases. And then of course, you know, the brown versus board decision of 1954, linda brown was at the center of that. Her father, oliver brown, was a veteran. And part of his desire to fight equal rights is because of his service service. Ill conclude with this. Robert madison fought with the 92nd infantry in italy. His oral history is one of those recorded by the World War Two museum here in laurel. In just one piece they use for evidence for this book, madison describes a trip to a bookstore late in his life in the 1920s. In his eighties, he says, he went to the section books on World War Two, took up a big, big off the shelf. He flipped through it he saw no reference at all to black soldiers, sailors airmen. And its quote that stuck with me said we were a forgotten group of people. I wrote this book, black veterans like robert madison. And if you have the opportunity to read it, i hope youll be inspired like i was by. Their stories of patriotism and service that they fought not only militarily for america, but they fought to make america a true democracy. Thanks. I look forward to the q a. Thank you. So lets lets lets get into it. So and of course, i did have an opportunity to read the book. So and im very impressed. I want to start off and ask you a little bit about and this is in your introduction in reference to the war often World War Two is described as the good war, how america came together and fought a common enemy, how america led the world in the fight for democracy. But the africanamerican experience in World War Two does a necessary early reflect a good war . Could you sort of elaborate on that statement and give your idea of of what african not just in the military but also in the work industry and the Agricultural Industry and just throughout the United States . I think its a great place to start i think, as most people know, that idea of the good war. The title comes from studs terkels book from the 1980s, 1984, i think it was. And he has it in quotes in part she wants to call attention to the kind of double meaning of the good war that what two was certainly good war in the sense that American Allies came together to defeat nazi germany and that that was something that had to happen. That was an unequivocal good thing. He also has, in quotes, for the fact that war is, i think, the museum demonstrates is horrible in so many ways that its not anything we take lightly for black americans. That idea of the good war is troubled by the reality of what the was actually like during World War Two for black americans all across country. They could look in to see the kind of day to treatment that black communities received. There was open discrimination in terms of jim crow laws in the south. There were other forms of discrimination in places like new york chicago, los angeles, and then are regular reports of lynchings, both of civilians, but also of some military personnel. The of discrimination encountered in the Defense Industries. Profound. It took organized efforts, even get black americans the chance to participate in Defense Industries, and then once they were there, white workers held the series of what they called hate strikes over the course of the war. These were strikes that were officially condoned by unions but were white workers walking off the job because they were upset by any sort of incursion of black workers into the into the workplaces. Theres a case in baltimore where a plant shuts down for weeks because white workers wont use integrated. They tried to integrate the bathrooms, this facility. And white workers say that thats a bridge too far. And we wont we wont do that. And so i think for our understanding of the good war part of our as historians is to talk honestly about the and to rely on the honest evidence of the past. And so i think two things can both be true, that, one, americans sacrifice a tremendous amount to help win the war, to help win a war that had to be won. At the same, they werent willing to racial prejudice. One of the key quotes in the book is from what roy wilkins i mentioned earlier, he said white people would rather this war than sacrifice the luxury of racial prejudice. And i think things like those hate strikes are a good example of that, that when those factories shut down, it meant, that they were producing fewer tanks. Your trucks, less ammunition, that was going to hamper the war effort. If americans were truly pulling together to do everything they could to help win the war, there wouldnt have been segregation in the military and there wouldnt have been these protests of attempts to integrate the Defense Industries. And i think our job is as citizens today. But as historians or people who care about history, its good to hold both those truths together. Right. The war was certainly a bad war in terms of nazism. The war is much complicated on the home front with the racism and prejudice that remained. And so let me just get you to go a little further on on that point. So know one of the one of the more all the chapters are wonderful. But your chapter on on race riots really depicts the black experience not just in the south, but certainly urban areas. Africanamericans are moving to the north, to the theyre looking for jobs. Theyre looking for housing and they came across a communities that didnt want them, which also turned into race riots and became very violent. Can you speak that a little bit . In 1943 alone, there were 240 race riots all across the country in big cities and small towns on military bases. And one of things we often forget is that these military bases, largely in the south, became intense of racial conflict. Once you started bringing troop from all over the country together in places like detroit, there was massive inmigration, both blacks, the rise, but also white southerners. In 1943, detroit has more southerners, both black and white, than any Southern City does. That many people have moved from the south in this in this great migration that, weve seen conflicts because people are competing for the same housing resources. Theyre competing for the same in these Defense Industries. And theres open racial hostilities. There are groups that are aligned with the ku klux klan that are formed in places like detroit and and they are openly organizing on the shop floors in some of these these key plants and Defense Industries. Detroit has the largest race in 1943. There are dozens of people who are killed in that 36 hour, 36 hour riot and it reveals, i think, again just how how tense things were during the war. I think its important to look that america was not a simpler place during World War Two. A lot of the kind of black, white images of the time are maybe hazy recollections will be. Yes, i think that. But when you actually look primary sources from that era, things were tense in these in the cities and in small towns in beaumont, texas, there was a right to days after the right in in detroit, where the White Community went in and burned down. Key parts of key parts of the black Business District in, beaumont, texas, including a radio store, a an owner who had sold thousands, thousands of dollars of war bonds. What the image sticks with me from that is a picture ran in black newspapers afterwards was of a American Flag that had been burned in the riot. This is a fire that was flying outside of this this radio industry and the question that editors asked with this with this flag is is why dont white people want to fight like we do . Why would they come into this community and and burn our town down and burn our businesses down at a time when were supposed to be joining together as americans help fight this war . And those are those are hard stories of research. Theyre stories to write. Theyre hard stories to tell, but theyre important stories to reckon with because thats that was the reality of what the war for a lot of black americans. At the same time, they had people from their communities, some of those images showed earlier, those are peoples brothers and uncles and dads. Theyre all fighting a war while theyre encountering this intense, intense racism home. And that its really difficult to overstate how tense that was for Robert Kennedy during the war. One of the other things i would like for you to sort of to speak is that at the beginning of World War Two, i think that africanamericans as as the war was starting were was sort of looking at the war in terms of previous conflicts. You look at the civil war and, the aftermath, and how violent and difficult that was. Of course, you have reconstruct. Shinn and then you have jim crow after world war one, where africanamerican is also supported the war. But then 1919, you have the summer where you have a series of race riots that to this day have never been. Theres nothing that has ever come close in terms of the level of destruction and death. But you have w. E. B. Dubois is writing about closing ranks. And this is our fight. And then were fighting for democracy. And then now World War Two starts. What is the mindset of most African Americans and political at that particular time . And whats different about this conflict . So one of the reasons the Double Victory Campaign resonates so powerfully is that its old idea in many ways. As mark was saying, frederick douglass, in the context of what context of the civil war says, going to fight two battles. Were going to fight to change. And north also fighting against the south and slavery. W. E. B. Dubois, outset of war, one says were going to return fighting. Right . Were going to close ranks, fight this war abroad. But then were going to come back and gain equal rights at home. Whats different with World War Two is the scale that americans have been part of every military conflict United States has ever been involved in going, all the way back to the American Revolution in run up to World War Two, before america officially joins the war after pearl harbor. Its clear that this is going to be a monumental undertaking and people understand a couple of things. And thats what i mean, jobs both in Defense Industries, also in the military that having opportunities serve in the military was both a source of patriotism, a source sense of belonging, and citizenship, but also it was payments that you received to pay for your service in the army or navy that black want a chance to be able to to benefit from and receive training in the military that could be used in the civilian world afterwards. So in 1938, 39, 48, there were organized by civil rights activists and by black newspaper editors to fight for the chance to fight, to try to get the military to open the doors to more black americans, which almost crazy to imagine that black americans to just fight organized for the opportunity to even serve in the military the lead up to World War Two that that was how pronounced the prejudice and racism was and the other thing thats important to remember too is because its not the scale of it, but also who american the allies are fighting against the the ideas of freedom are so much more profound than what were to, because the nazis are the main force that takes us up against that black americans want to be able to leverage. That idea that the United States fighting for freedom, democracy abroad to be able to ensure that after the war those same attributes will be true here at home. And so as we talk about the aftermath, World War Two and what it really means, not only to the black community but to the nation, one of the things that stood in my mind in your conclusion is when you made reference to the fact that world two is is connected to the present approach to present day protest movement. One of the things ive often told my students is that, look, we study history to understand the present. We also study history to, interpret the future, or predict the future. So whats happening today is grounded in foundationally in whats happened in the past. And so can you kind of talk about that the legacy of World War Two the political activism the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement that still is very very important to this country today. And even of the the racial tension that many people might see today that one thing thats important for least way i teach history is talking about continuities in the way that one period often leads to the next. So almost every major civil rights figure of the 1950s and sixties has some connection. The history of World War Two, to say just one example. Rosa parks was a civilian seamstress, the maxwell air base in montgomery alabama. Its 1940, fords later in the war in the busses on that base had been desegregated at that point. And so it she describes that on the base she could sit anywhere she wanted to when she was on the bus, she could sit next to her white coworkers and go chat with them when they got to the edge of the base and transfer to the city bus. Then she had to go sit in the back of the city bus in montgomery. So in the course of one block, she goes from being a first class citizen who can do whatever she wants to, being a second class citizen as the jim crow section of the bus parks. Brother sylvester serves in the pacific theater. When he gets back, he cant find housing, cant get a job. These were this was sort of in the air for that whole generation of black veterans and black Defense Industry workers and as that is one quote i mentioned indicates that there was intense intense racism that these black veterans had fight against when they came back. And its important to understand the reality of what this post years looked like for black, because if you dont, then it looks like the activism of the 1960s came out of nowhere and and it did not that those protests against Voting Rights protest a School Desegregation protest in, terms of employment and housing, all of that had its roots during World War Two. And so thats what i mean by continuities. If you dont understand the reality of World War Two, then you cant understand the 1960s. And then similarly, if you look at the Racial Justice protests in the last decade, if you dont understand this longer, it can seem like those came out of nowhere as well. And part of the reason those issues are still with us today around Voting Rights, around racial inequality, around the racial wealth gap, is that they have deep, deep roots in history. Think the g. I. Bill for example at the g. I. Bill is one of the most important pieces of legislation in the 20th century. Its what enabled a whole generation of white veterans to be able to enter the middle class because it provided access to low interest mortgages that are backed by the va, access to college tuition, to job training, business loans. By and large, black veterans were not to benefit from the gi bill because it was set up to be distributed at the state level. And everyone in 1945 knew if you did things at the state level were deferring to the racial prejudices of state and local laws. Theres a group at brandeis whos tried to calculate what that discrimination has meant. And what they found that over the course of a lifetime, its about 100,000 difference in terms of what blackwater or two veterans are able to get from gi bill benefits and what white veterans are able to get. And we think about the vast racial wealth in our country today. A lot of that is traced back to those discriminations in policy. And i think so think about these continuities between past and present. I think one of the things the history can help us do is the world we live in today. And then hopefully us tools to help navigate the future. Right. And i say that without regard, whatever anyones particular political opinions are. Right. This history is a history regardless of whos in the white house. Right. Or who controls congress, any point time. Our history is the history. If we cant have a firm grasp what actually happened when things in the present, they again they seem like they came out of nowhere right. History gives us that grounding understand. Theres a backstory to almost all of this stuff, and thats part of why its so important to to study this history and to talk about it, honestly. Yeah. And as a history professor, you and i dont teach as much as i to, but im a little troubled at the fact that, you know a lot of our young people dont read as much. And and i remember even ago when i was teaching a history class, i mentioned to my students about reading book and they asked me when was the movie coming out . You know, its okay, all right. And sometime theres no movies thats going to come out. But but i also think about, you know, and im a history nerd, obviously you know, in a in a someone who likes war movies, because it helps me sort of better understand those conflicts. And so when you think about the band of brothers, think about pacific, you think about midway, you know, patton, all these epic that that really describe the Human Experience during World War Two and helps americans understand the sacrifice that took place by by asked by citizens. But yet when you look at stories, you dont see africanamericans. You dont see the level of diversity that reflects this nation. You dont see the sacrifice of the africanamerican or people of color that contributed to the war effort. And yet we living at a time where a lot of our young people are visual learners, you know, so those movies matter that the multimedia social media, it. Can you sort of talk a little bit about the importance of of recognizing the contributions of africanamericans and what it means to young people and even students in the future. So ill start with a confession. Another one thats on paper now. But i didnt love history until i got to graduate school. I found history really boring, high school and in college, even because i didnt understand what it actually meant to do history. I would read these books in classroom, read textbooks, and i was often memorizing names and dates and facts for tests. I kind of felt like these books just kind of came from up on high, right . And i was try to, to, to memorize whatever in there and then report it back or regurgitate it back in them in the test format. Thats how we historys about history is about engaging primary sources and trying to those puzzle pieces together to help understand how people experience the past. You work with primary sources, try to analyze them. History is messy. Thats the the fun part of. It right. Thats whats so dynamic about it. And so i use that as a lead in because when i think about what it means, get young people engaged and interested in history. Its about that showing them not just the end point but the process. I tend to expose them at as early as possible to primary sources and understand what it means to evaluate primary sources in relationship to each other, and then to make arguments based on those primary sources. I dont know if twitter will still be alive when we finish this, but im on twitter pretty regularly posting primary sources from this history, and i think its a great way to try to engage people with what it means to understand history, different perspectives. And as youre saying, we have to be able to understand the contributions of black americans to history that takes away from the many, many contributions of white americans. This history that we part, the power of history as we can tell all of these stories together. We need to tell all of these stories together because are all American History. Right . Thats the power. This is what the museum does. So, so profoundly. I i think for young people, its giving. I always find this like different ladders. Help help them hook on to wherever theyre going. Pick up the story. For some people, its a video clip or documentary. Some people its a newspaper article. For some people, these oral histories at the museum as its curated are tremendous. To hear a veteran talk about. Their experience of the war, then what it meant to come back to a country that didnt treat as the equal citizen, that does more any number of books on the of jim crow could tell you from a first person perspective. And so our job as educators or our collective job as people who care about history is to find those ways of engaging different generations in this history. I think demographically i to say this audience skews on the older side and. So then i would. Say its presented as a challenge to you. Its the same challenge. Im much older than my students, right . As the gray hair, my beard, my hair and the test part of my job is to get them energized about this history. Its not enough to say were two. History is important you should care about it. Professor dolman, i dont care. Part of my job to find what angle is going to reach them. They get in my classroom, make it a challenge to you that you care about this history. You wouldnt be for three days if you didnt. For the people are in your networks, your grandchildren, the young people in your lives. Find ways of engaging them in this history. In ways that are relevant to them. I think thats thats our challenge as people who care history is to make this history come alive for people in different ways. Theres single avenue to that, right . We dont know whether its going to be, but its desperately important we have that next generation care as much about history as we all do. Yeah. And as a up to that, ill tell you how i used to handle that. So what i want to ask my students, you know, who likes history and they would be shy in the kind of sum raise your hand some dont. And id say if you didnt like history raging so they raise their hand ill say well i totally disagree. Everybody loves history. Most of the most popular books and movies, tv shows, all about history that everyone loves. So what you dont like is boring professors. So i think and i dont think dr. Cox or dr. Delman have to worry about boring professor. Gentlemen, were going to jump to q a. But a round of applause for marcus cox and matt belmont. We have a number of questions on carney side so well start to your left. Towards the front. Well start with the founder of the museum first right. Well, let me just go first again thank the way you started with shout up arizona State University and stephen watson. I came over there and met with you and because of your enthusiasm initially you went off to dartmouth. That left us in the lurch. Stevensville managed to conclude that masters degree online. And actually, i think theres some people out in the audience that are taking that program now. If you are, raise your hands out there. I know weve got some. So heres the heres the founder of that program and. And a shout out to Steven Watson who spent another year negotiating the difficulties of bringing you partnership together. But as you mentioned, a wrote a little blurb for your your book here. And i think its one of the great books on the africanamerican experience in World War Two. And then the blurb think thats on the website. I said its what americans can learn from africanamericans about World War Two and i think thats one of your great contribue actions in the way you have written this story and especially the way you put it into context in the late thirties with Langston Hughes for example in the spanish civil war. And you mentioned that ethiopia and so on but what is really about that is that the africanamerican and for some of the obvious reasons youve discussed began to understand the fight against fascism as against a fight for freedom and democracy in america and in the world before most americans had a clue. And many americans, as you know, as america first, we are isolationists. We have all leading business leaders, many in the government who were who are some sympathetic to national and to hitler and in the run up, when you have many africanamericans like carter, as you talked about. And hughes hughes, who were over there with hemingway fighting fascism in spain for the larger. And i think that was a really important contribution because you had a start. And of course Langston Hughes, not only a journalist, but a poet. I mean, would you just talk a little bit about him a little and that early context and how that motivated you to get started . Thank you. Thinking that Langston Hughes is such an extraordinary figure and for him, publishing goes to spain is because hes just fascinated by these volunteers and his reporting back. It. As nick mentioned, its both kind of direct war reporting, but also its poetry. And so before the war and then during the war, he these tremendous poems that really call out the hypocrisy of a country that is fighting for freedom, democracy abroad, while condoning segregation at home. He and other black americans are making really explicit connections between the racial hierarchies and germany and the racial policies in jim crow south. And so one things i am able to excerpt in the are a number of his poems both from spain that he writes back but also the war that answer about different points of entry to different corners of history, poetry, song. Those are great ways to get people engaged or thinking about how how artists in the past tried make sense of this history. Thank you. To your right about halfway back. I want to thank you for talking about this very important subject and topic. I was wondering if you would comment on the experience of Sergeant Isaac woodard, how that led to the d. C. Segregation of the army. Thank you. Thank you for asking about that. One of the hardest chapters of the book trip was homecoming that describes the tenor of the country when when black veterans came back. As i mentioned, it was its distressing the kind of disrespect that was shown to by veterans. Things were so bad that by veterans had to change out of their military uniforms as soon as they got home. Theres one story of a father bringing so that his son can change in car so that no white people see him in the uniform. But its just the idea of a black person uniform was upsetting because. They thought that they were going to themselves too proudly as like woodard is one of the more than a dozen black veterans who are either murdered or when they get home. He is attacked in South Carolina and route to rejoin his family. Hes beaten by police. Eyes are gouged out by a sheriffs nightstick and, you know, in many ways its not dissimilar to the George Floyd Murder in the summer 2020. It sent shockwaves across the country. His photo with his face mangled by the nightstick is in newspapers. All across the country. It sparked outrage, as it should, among black American Civil Rights activists, but also got the attention of president truman, president truman, as you know, as a veteran. And hes outraged that this kind of violence is happening against woodard and others. Right. Hes hes aware of racism of this United States, but seen black veterans be treated in this way, deeply, deeply upsetting for him as a veteran. Its of the things that leads him to sign the executive order in 1948. Its a piece of the puzzle. I think the other pieces are. He recognizes in a political calculus that black voters are going to be increasingly important part of the partys base. And so hes trying to balance that. The demands of black voters against the southern segregationist part of the democratic party. In the 1940s, and then by that point, there had been a decade of intense protests to try to get the military to be segregated. And then also 48, theyre able to benefit from the after action reports of commanders in World War Two who recognize that black troops perform extraordinarily well during the war. One of the arguments for maintaining is that there are all these myths that emerged between world war one and World War Two, that black troops are not to be courageous or brave in combat. They dont what it takes to be good soldiers. Theyre able to prove that wrong on the battlefield. And so truman is able to draw on those different elements to lead him to desegregate the military. But woodards case, its a again was a story thats so important to understand because its helped us understand those those histories of Police Brutality against black americans have been outrageous for so many decades. Were going to stay to the right towards back. Can you stand by . All right . I just finished writing a about based on my fathers letters, World War Two. And he was based germany both during the war and afterwards and in many of his letters he remarks about how the africanamerican troops were being treated by the white europeans once they had an experience of actually meeting them and having them in very close proximity, sometimes sharing their homes with. And my father wryly, i think a lot of them might be better off just staying here in europe than going home. So thank you for mentioning. Thats a really part of the story that what your father reported on is accurate, that black soldiers and veterans by troops and veterans described being treated amazingly by british citizens and french citizens. Evers had mentioned earlier when hes 19, he spent some time with the French Family as his unit is moving through france. Is this the first time hes ever been treated as a human being by a white person . Its a 100 different than how he is treated by white. It changes his world view. He thinks he believes, an entirely different way of relating across racial lines as possible. The other part of that story is when white units go abroad, a number of people actually upset, by the way, that black troops are being treated by white europeans. And so they actually try to install a jim crow policies in england in france. And so again, there are intense racial conflicts that happen in england between black white servicemen about these basic questions about can black troops in the same pub as his white people. Next questions with connie. To your far left, please. Hello there. The buffalo soldiers, particularly ninth and 10th calvary. The second calvary gets stood up, still dares stood up, stood down again. What can happens those guys after . I think theyre stood down in north africa in 43. I mean, these guys were prewar soldiers with histories back to the indian wars. Theyre not new units. And people like you know just come with new ideas into the service. Theyre veterans in one form or another. Just what happened with them . Thanks for asking. I didnt spend as much time on unit. I dont have as much to say about. Were going to go to your right towards, the back. Gentlemen, john john, does your cover the the red tail squadrons . And you didnt even mention it. Thats reason im asking. Thank you for asking. So it does. It talks about the Tuskegee Airmen and the red tails. I think that the Tuskegee Airmen are the best known black troops in the war, and thats one reason they didnt highlight them. Here is, i think hopefully theyre familiar with most salient the two things the book tries to do is it focuses on one commander in particular Benjamin Davis jr, who graduates west point in 1936. Hes only the fourth black man ever graduate from west point, the first in the 20th century, when he graduates in 36, the army has no idea what to do with him because he want to be a pilot and that time the air corps is not allowing any black men to be pilots. And so it talks about the effort from 36 when he graduates until tuskegee in 41, and then the month by month fight, essentially, they have to wage in order to get the opportunity to first fly and then to serve in combat, which they eventually do in the mediterranean. The other thing with tuskegee that i didnt really know until i got into the research is, theres a whole black world that develops on the air base in tuskegee and so its not just the pilots. There are dozens of black women who are nurses. There are hundreds of personnel. There are meteorologists, black men with training from m. I. T. And other stem backgrounds. And so i try to highlight that aspect of the story, think that part is less well known than just a fighter pilot. Theres a whole support network of other personnel on the ground there in tuskegee. Next questions in the back to your left with connie. Dr. Denman, thank you for sharing your work today on on thursday morning. Dr. Bishops suggested to us that americans could learn a lot from and austrians grappling with the legacy of nazi ism in our own grappling with the legacy of slavery in america and dr. Overy suggested theres a night that nazi policy was deeply influenced by imperialism and, colonialism. And we also understand that it was deeply influenced in hitlers worldview by. American racial war and racial policy was this influence understood in in your research by the people developing the double View Campaign . Its my first question and my second question is how can we better better reconcile for americas legacy of enslavement and persecution of formerly enslaved people with the heroism and victory over nazi in the Second World War, particularly as we think about the United States history, education, i think those are really good big questions. On the first one, let start that. Obviously, the holocaust is world historical unique event. And so theres no entity that compares to that. But in terms of nazi racial, as nick mentioned earlier, black americans are among the first to understand what a serious threat hitler poses because they see that hes drawing explicitly on american racial policies. And so the language keeps going to use from 1933 on is that nazi racial policy in american racial policy, the kind of racial thats in the jim crow south, are two sides of the same coin, right . That these are our strong and activists keep playing back to that as Different Things during the war the fact that the military is segregated the fact that blood donors are segregated the fact that you have these white workers walking off the job to protest integration. The that nazi p. O. W. S were treated better than black soldiers were that they could eat in facilities right parts of car train cars that black soldiers couldnt. Thats one of the things that really outraged back and so thats absolutely key to the understanding of the Double Victory Campaign because it really was and i cant emphasize just enough it really was two wars that they were fighting. Right. It wasnt just enough to to that battle militarily. They had to win at home. And so for black americans, the war doesnt end in 1945, like, yes, those military battles end, but the other battles continue. The american racial that were very, very similar to not to racial ideology. Theyre still in place and you still have people like east london in the senate in terms of reckoning with, the history theres so much to say on that topic. But i would with this is obviously slavery is a foundational part of our countrys history and weve a lot of public debates the last couple of years about how we should grapple with that, with that part of our history. I think the history of World War Two was flown under the radar a little bit that people dont think about this or what were to as being as controversial or as as fraught as or slavery is. I hope in my book i try to make clear that it was just as fraught that we shouldnt look at World War Two as a more peaceful, unified time in our nations history, because it wasnt. Its a time that america helped out win a tremendously important war while still condoning extreme forms of jim crow, racial segregation in the country. And so in terms what it means to record this history, i think the first part is just talking honestly about the history with reference to actual actual sources and then thinking about what were the of that history. As i mentioned, the gi bill and that kind of discrimination that thats legacy of this history. Its part of why have the kind of racial inequality we do today. Its one that one of the reasons its a our job as people to care about history is to to look at the history honestly both the good and the bad parts of it. And if i can just add to that, i think a part of that also is is were doing today, you know, recognizing contributions of africanamericans and other americans to world two and very important parts of our i think the fact that africanamericans and others are sometimes left out of the narrative and the story of how this country was built and and the achievements of this nation are very, very important. I think, you know, even right now, as have, you know, some you groups or whatever want to call them who are very sensitive to certain books and libraries and and trying to try and leave portions our of of our contributions of americans out of out of out of our official histories. That is in opinion is very damaging because youre leaving out a very important part of who we are as a nation. And i think, you know if you want to reconcile past and really look at it, you have to first recognize