I mean, its kind of a renaissance, if you will, and a lot of we even have a financial conference. We have the anthem film festival. We started for the first time, the comedy show with john cleese, his daughters performing there. So its pretty unique. And why are you a libertarian. Well, libertarians are socially liberal and, economically conservative. So were not right wing. Were not left wing, which i like. I actually dont really like labels. Freedom fest is called the Worlds Largest gathering of free minds. And so we like think of people here are free mind open. We have a lot of debates both sides the issues theyre formal debates, civil debates. So its not like cnn and fox news or the yelling each other. Of course, they dont do debates anymore. Notice the only guests they have on are saying, yes, tucker i agree with you. You know, come on, lets have a genuine debate like they used to do. The only time you see debates anymore is in congress when somebody has to show up and and you can get some fighting going on. In fact, we have senator rand paul here today going to show clips from his debates, dr. Fauci and other members of the Biden Administration and then his inside scoop of he really thought about these guys who come him and so forth. So theres a lot of fun. We really and its entertaining and its educational. Well, weve been coming out here for several years in a row talking to authors who have libertarian bent. How has it grown over the years . Well, we started off in 15 years ago. We had a thousand people this year. Were were at 2000, almost 2600. And by way, a lot of conferences lie about how many people they have here. So if i can go online, i could show you our actual number. The last time i looked was 2554. So we like to be accurate and. I think thats important because theres too many people saying, oh, yeah, we had we 5000 people there. And then you go into meeting and theres a couple of hundred people in the audience. So were we try to be realist about where were at and we have been growing. But you are also an author. How many books have europe ive about 25. Ive pretty much forgotten many for sure. But all dealing with economics, economics, finance. I have written a couple of religious books, but generally speaking, i focus on economics and yeah, well, the fourth edition of your book, the making of modern economics, just came out. Whats different . First of all, what is the making of modern economics about and how is the fourth edition updated to it . Modern economics is probably my most popular. It is a textbook, but it reads like a layman could enjoy reading it because theres of pictures, theres of stories and anecdotes about the economy its a story of the great economic thinkers, starts with adam smith, the founder, modern economics. And we go through marx and cage and the french laissez faire school and the austrian school, the chicago school. We have chapters, each one of them, we have a chapter on Milton Friedman. Its called miltons of the cage is called cage mutiny play on an old film. And marx is called marx madness. So we have a lot fun with our titles for the austrian its called out of the blue, you students love my book. I have pictures because you know students dont read any more. They just look and but seriously they do read. But i have lots of stories to bring to life. The economist which i think is really important so ive gotten a lot of good from from other writers other economists say youre bringing history alive most of the time most history of thought books are very dry. They go into heavy theory and that sort of thing. What i try to show is that the theory, like keyness theory, came out of the great depression, marxist theory came out of the excesses of the industrial revolution. And Milton Friedman in response to keynes. And so forth. So i bring i bring it all together. The other thing i do, that unique of this book, you can im somewhat enthusiastic about it is that i have a hero. All histories fire prior to mine. Wow. This economist said this then this economist theres theres no running plot. Theres no hero. Theres no pros and cons and. A running thread. So i make adam smith the founder of modern economics, kind of a in laissez faire that government but if government would just people fulfill their own selfinterest that you would see an increase in prosperity more people would be involved and it would be a way to increase the standard of living. So he the hero system of natural liberty the hero. And then i judge every to what extent do you build this the house that smith built or are you tearing it down or are you trying to build another building which is what marx did and to some extent. Cage so and then i have adam model left for dead then is resuscitated by the french laissez faire school by the austrian, by the british school, by the chicago school, by the austrians. And then it in typical American Fashion ends with the good ending the collapse of the berlin wall. The collapse of central socialist Central Planning and. Capitalism flourishes after that. Still lots of challenges. So its been popular that rutledge published or now goes through its fourth edition. And ive stuff on Global Warming on inequality on inflation lots of more current topics and youve added stuff on the pandemic as well how that was handled economically. Whats your view as well . My view is it wasnt handled very well because it was all top down was all a government telling us what to do and more and more everything was being either mandated or prohibited. So its like the old star wars movie where the the the, the, how the the room is collapsing on both sides mandates and and prohibitions. And so we we lost our freedom. I would have loved much rather seeing individual Business LeadersUniversity President s let them make the decision. Dont let the governor just say were were Closing Everything down. Most economists now agree that was a big mistake and it certainly couldnt last very long. You cant just keep an economy going. Everybodys home. Not everybody can run a business on zoom. And so i think they realized their mistake and they backed off. But what was remarkable was in this pandemic, which i think was a relatively mild compared to historically 1918 or the black plague or those real pandemics. But to see how we shut down the economy, especially australia and new zealand and china still engaged in that, its really scary to think that were run by a dictatorship, not democracy. And so im a Firm Believer democratic capitalism, democratic system. And i think we lost of that in the in this recent pandemic. Oh, mark scales and you say that the making of modern ends with the collapse of the berlin and yet communism, but isnt a trend towards more socialism in economics . Yes. And in governance. Yeah. And i the crises since my first my First Edition came out in 2001. And by the way my pub day, you know, every book a pub date guess my pub day kids and i was shocked when i saw it. March 9th. March 9th, 2001. Why is march 9th important . I kept thinking, is that that is the anniversary of adam smiths wealth of nations published on march 9th in 1776. So i knew i was on right track anyway. So yes, since the collapse of the berlin wall, which is supposed be the end of history, it out that capitalism has suffered several setbacks crisis of 2008 and then the lockdown the pandemic and so forth. And youre right government grew as a result of that i was really surprised when i saw a chart from the economist the economist showed government growth over time as a percent of gdp. Its now at 50 in the united states. Its never happened before. So i quote abraham and in half. And one of the hear it at freedom, we have a theme every year. So this theme is turning the tide. So i would like to see government shrink and democratic individualism grow where we make our own decisions rather than somebody from the top telling what to do. Mark scales, the founder of freedom and the author of, 25 books, including the making modern economics. As always, we appreciategood ev. Im tony clark from the carter president ial library. And were glad youre here for all of our programs, you know . Several years ago i was watching a helen mirren movie eye in the sky, and its about Decision Making process for a drone strike. And so when i saw joe book is remote warfare moral, it just seemed like the kind of topic that really needs to be discussed. And this would be a good place to to discuss it. Joseph shapiro is Lieutenant Colonel in the us air force. Hes got a ph. D. In