A journey through recent history across continents. Thank you for joining us on cspans book tv. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to politics and prose. Im brad graham, the coowner of the store, along with my wife, lissa muscatine. And were very excited to have with us this evening one of my favorite journalists, the ever entertaining mark leibovich, whos to talk about his revealing amuse and ultimately quite alarmed my new book, thank you for your service to Donald Trumps washington and the price of submission. Mark has enjoyed a distinguished career in journalism with with some of the nations best newspapers and publications. After starting with the phenix boston and the San Jose Mercury in california, he landed here in d. C. With the Washington Post, where he spent a decade, then joined the york times in 2006 as a National Political correspondent working out of the washington bureau, it became clear that one of marks particular talents was profiling political and media figures. In fact, he won a National Magazine award in 2011 for profiling the life and times of fellow journalists mike allen, then with politico. The following year, mark became chief National Correspondent for the New York Times sunday magazine, where he had a great run for nearly a decade and until last december, when he left to start a new job writing for the atlantic. Hes also the author three previous books, including the number one bestseller nine years ago this town about the political culture of washington. That book was wonderfully witty, incisive gossipy, but cynical takedown of washingtons power elite, and it reinforced marks reputation in the words of a of an npr reviewer as a wicked satirical. In his new mark employees much the same talent in lampooning number of Donald Trumps key enablers in the republican establishment. People like Kevin Mccarthy, graham, Rudy Giuliani and other slavish devotees drawing on interviews with many of those he features, mark frequently uses their words to explore why they facilitated or at least tolerate so much of trumps in office and in the process allowed themselves and their party to spiral down into sycophancy and cowardice. But while marks of his subjects and his many entertaining turns of phrase offer much to chuckle about the underlying message of his book, this time is deadly serious. He concludes on a note. Considerable foreboding. The fringe, he observes, has become the standard. And looking ahead, he says, its harder for see the next republican in congress ushering in a sober period of reflection, pragmatism and and mutual benefit. So on that happy accord, please join me in welcoming mark leibovich. Thank you, brad. Its really its a great beach. Read a laugh. Its like despite the last part of the introduction. So thank you all for coming. Wow. You dont you dont know whos going to show up in these covid days. So this is great. So thank you for being here, everyone. It is the politics and prose is the ultimate home game for me. I love coming here. I feel like, you know, ive grown up here. My kids have grown up ever since weve lived d. C. For the last 20 years. This has been very much a second home and. Its always been like the go to place, you know, when ive had books, but also to bring my kids and our and, you know, the cafe and everything. And im just so pleased to be here also to see how its evolved and has thrived under lissa and brad and everyone by your books here and you know, one of the things when i come, theres always like a back and forth in head, like, should i read to people, should it read from the book . And i never really love reading from books. I dont feel like, you know, i feel like a Library Teacher and people be sitting on floors and everyones in third grade. I figure if people want to be read to, theyd get the get the book on tape. So get the book on tape that is available, i assume through pmp on the website. Okay. Dont buy through amazon. So buy the book on tape. You want to be read too . Im not going to read to you unless you want to. Ill do privately. So thank you for being here. It is. Its always a great experience to sort of be alone with this thing that you dont know if youre going to finish and then be able to talk about it. Finally, this is a book. Was not fun to write. It not easy to write and one of the central challenges of writing a book is trying to you you always have to expend a great deal of effort to make it look effortless, to make it look enjoyable. But the years were not for a journalist fun to live through, which is a bit of a misconception because people would always come up to me and say, oh, you must be having a blast in washington. You know, the circus is in town getting so much great copy. Donald trump is so colorful and so much news and i never really got that memo. I always thought that it was a serious presidency it was not fun to be made into the enemy of the people. It was not fun to be at the New York Times washington bureau. When have new Armed Security guards, you know, installed after a couple of years, you know, it made me realize in a very kind of converse way i didnt fully appreciate before how much i cared. And thats an interesting thing that i never expected to be saying because have a reputation of being a bit of a cynic, you know, with this town and books that, you know, do take a fairly cynical eye towards politics. And i come to that honestly, and i stand by my cynicism in many cases. But if there was a kind of perverse message or surprise for me about covering these last few years, its that i actually do care. And i actually feel more patriotic. And i feel like the stakes have never been higher. You know, im also a cheerleader for journalism. Im big. You know, i will certainly talk to and maybe not even to defend a lot of the journalism thats gone on in the last few years. But i am in awe of some of the investigative work spot news work sort of short Term White House reporting, tweeting in essays. Ive had more common cause with conservatives than ive had ever. Mostly never. Trump conservatives and what i wanted to do here is write a book that was about Donald Trumps but was not about donald trump himself. Difficult needle to thread a lot has been written about donald trump. A lot of stories have been told about donald trump. Books have been written about donald trump. More books will be written about trump. Some of them will be good books. Some of them i wont read. Many of them i have read and werent very good books, but some of them have been very good. And then theres obviously a lot to the man and dont really want to add to that. I feel like theres a great body of work about what went on in the white house. I think many books have brought the story forward about, you know, oh, here are ten more incredible anecdote about donald trump feeding dog food to mike pence or hanging Jeff Sessions over the truman balcony by the ankles or Something Like that. I dont really play that game. I wanted try to write a book through the perspective of the under appreciated undercovered part of this washington iteration, which is the people who allowed him to happen, the enablers, the republican, the people who basically you know with some exceptions, but were largely derelict in their responsibility to check and balance him to walk away if needed. These are the Kevin Mccarthys these are the Lindsey Grahams. These are the rudys these are the marco rubios. And ted cruzs and people who over a four or five year period basically wave the white flag and allowed him to run fairly roughshod over a lot of our institutions. So the working title, this book, as i was working on it, was they all knew better because they did i talked to all of them pretty much one of the defining strains of all of these conversations was there was always a major, major between what they were saying privately, contemptuously, often about the president and what they were saying publicly, which was adulation, which was, you know, complete capitulation, submission, whatever you want to call it. One of the challenges this book, by the way, was finding fun synonyms for like words like this. My favorite, by the way, was the brigade know, the dutiful brigade of republican turd polishers. That was from sykes of the bulwark. I shot him out in the book for being the author of that, but no mean this was the central dynamic of the republican over these years. I tried to tell a story about a six year period in washington through the lens of this sort of steady and. One of the interesting characters this book was not actually a person. It was a place the sort of leitmotif of this book is the trump hotel. So anybody ever been to trump hotel . Wow. Its more than i actually would have thought. The trump opened in late 2016. The Trump International hotel. It was the local property. It was a beautiful hotel. I will say it. I, you know, didnt think i would say this, but its in the Old Post Office building. Its halfway between the white and the capitol on pennsylvania avenue. Theres glorious like four or five star hotel, which for about a year period was the capital of republican washington. It was american cafe. It was cheers for the trump world, except instead of like norman sam sort of giving each other about like norms tab, they would be like talking about, i dont know, some lobby deal for a saudi or like, you know, a 20,000 bar tab for someone who wanted a pardon. I mean, it was like, oh my god, gambling is going on here. Do you believe it . Im shocked. Shocked. But it was like that. It was an incredible, bizarre be acr. It was bizarre, too. But you would have, you know, dozens of Republican Congress men and women, mostly men at all hours at the bar running up tabs, often instagramming their tabs and making sure the white house knew about it. So the president could see that congressman soandso had spent 20,000 on a bottle of champagne. And it goes right to the president s bottom line. It sounds like a joke, but actually happened you had the president s cabinet, you had members of the white house staff, you had members of the administration. You had, you know, rudy, you had rudy see rudy going out to smoke a cigar, his undone tie and often red wine staining his shirt. I think that was the night of the wedding. Steven mnuchin, the secretary of the treasury, had a place there for while his wife had a little purse dog that she carried her all over the place. Brit himself had a place there. You had a lot of members of the press there. We get a lot of work done there. You could see white house officials after a rough day, often not having fun, doing. They were doing ready to commiserate a of them were drinking. This is not the kind of place would want to spend a lot of time left to my own devices. Id probably rather spend my time after pretty much anywhere except or maybe go home or some Something Like a normal person would do, but it was unlike anything id ever seen covering washington over the last 25 years and it was the ultimate scene. And i remember people would ask always, especially when id leave town, whats it like there . Whats it like in washington . And i would always sort of settle on this scene and the ultimate part of the scene was that, you know, maybe 30 or 40 times in the course of his presidency, or at least the president himself would come into the trump hotel, donald trump would agree to eat at exactly one establishment in all of washington outside of the white house. And that was the steakhouse at the trump hotel. That was place he needed to. First of all, he was never terribly at home at the white house. He would always get restless. He was always being hassled. He felt. He needed the big applauded. He needed people to be standing on chairs, chanting his name. He needed to wave. He needed cameras, he needed a fuss. He needed his 40 ounce tomahawk steak. Welldone. He needed his shrimp cocktail, his french fries, and his chocolate cake for dessert. Sometimes pie and always a bucket chilled diet coke because, you know, the diet got to be careful. The day got to take care of himself. So he would you know, it was just quite a scene and youd have these anthropological people like me and other journalists, and sometimes even people who hated trump, who would just go in on the hope that maybe you get to see cinderella coming into the castle, you know, himself. Hed have tourists in from tennessee. They would expect, like, okay, you go to disney world, you dont expect to see cinderella herself, but at least well get a few pictures of the castle. But wow, there he is. And hed come in and they were chant his name and thered be these paparazzi and theyd be asking him, like, what you have for dinner, mr. President . And hed look in the eye and say, steak, thatd be it. Bizarre, right . So was the polar palace. Thats what called it some people. They had all these nicknames that the trump hotel regulars had for the place headquarters, the home office, the americas living room was another one i called it the polar palace. So you go through there, and that was sort the center of washington. But one of the but it was a very poignant scene in some ways because youd see Lindsey Graham going from table to table, Kevin Mccarthy going from table, table, being thanked for all of the great things they were doing, for our great president. And a guy like Lindsey Graham, who knows better very, you know, savvy veteran senator, best of john mccain, who loved alpha dogs, loved hanging around with the alpha dogs. John mccain many years, his own father for many in a bar that his own ran in South Carolina and. Then donald trump, who he kind of glommed on to not long after john mccain or even before john mccain died and would follow him on the golf course, be golfing all the time. Hed be on the phone with them all the time. Hed be advertising. Oh, i just got off the phone with the president. Mccarthy would do that. They all would do that. And they all knew better. Again privately. And i have a lot of this on the record they would say, man, this is a rope. Its really stressful. Graham was extremely open about the game he was playing about how he was sort of playing donald trump and how well, you know, if you really want to get something out of, just tell him obama will do the opposite and dont flatter him too much. Only him 80 of the way because hell work for that last 20 . You can get what want. You can do a deal. I mean, ive never i mean it was stunning. I mean, he lindsey made the calculation that, you know, his voters in South Carolina are not going to read the New York Times. And they arent going to read this book. I assume hes and he just did it and. I think if he did and trump found out about it he wouldnt care. He liked the idea that he was being talked about. So again, so i try to move through time in this book while telling the stories of these people who again, kind of learn to make the trump years work for them, whether its just getting whether its getting onto the golf with the president , whether its getting to be speaker, the house, which is pretty much all Kevin Mccarthy wants at this point, and they all need Donald Trumps blessing. Do that so fast to the end of the administration. Would that would have been that easy. The trump hotel was pretty much a ghost town. Covid, like most hotels, like most establishments. Covered, basically ruined business and then trump did something unfor given lee off brand which is he lost and it was not a lot of people coming around much anymore no one was there. Id still stop periodically, like in through 2021 and early 2022, just to sort of get the flavor of the ghost town of the trump hotel. Occasionally youd a Madison Cawthorn or a Lauren Boebert or a Marjorie Taylor greene in the place. I mean, they were like, really . People who were hanging around. So it was sort of a of the times. And then late in 2021, the Trump Organization sold the property to a miami Investment Group for a 100 million profit, which is another very familiar washington story which is failing upward. Right. Its this basically scorned and abandoned property sells for a huge profit for the owner i mean, granted its great location, beautiful building. So you can see why it be desirable for someone. But at the same time the the profiteer here is someone left office in utter disgrace impeached twice lost the house, the senate, the white house, the only first president in 100 years to do that. First president in 150 years ever. Not to be to his successors inauguration. You know, if you want to pander republicans, you can say you know he lost to joe biden. Not easy to do. And, you know, i probably a lot of people like joe biden here, but, you know, its like he theres every reason for republicans to run away him. And for some reason, theyre too scared to. And i dont know why. Because of this. Because theyre to enable him. He will probably for president again in 2024. And, you know, i assume if he does, hell be a clear front runner to win the nomination and then who knows whats going to happen. So, again republicans are complicit here. They could have stopped this. They could stop this. And it is not like there been a shortage of courage around the rest of the world. Mean in a non political context, you know, ukraine right. I mean the resistance is real and noble and, you know, inspiring to watch even the conservative party in england they rose up they said, you know enough, enough. Boris johnson, youre gone. These incredibly brave men and, women, many of whom worked for donald trump in the white house, coming before the january Six Committee at great risk to themselves despite threats what have you. Revenge you know and and also the outliers like liz cheney, Adam Kinzinger and mitt romney, not a lot of others, but, you know, there are examples of this which do me and sometimes when i speak a little bit to enthusiastic about how inspired i am by liz cheneys of the world, i kind get looked askance. You from people who say oh but about her father and the iraq war so forth or well, look what mitt romney did in 2012 when he was running against a im of the belief that its never too late to do the right thing and to stand up for something as precious for it as democracy and you know i hope that things turn i have real doubts that the Republican Party at this moment has the fortitude and the will and frankly the courage to do anything about what they all consider privately to be the existential problem for their because its not conservative, you know, its been disastrous many ways. It could cost us dearly as a democracy and that sounds again ive been very encouraged that people seem to be laughing on every page. I think theres a lot of undermined ridicule, scorn towards a lot of these figures that has been under utilized. And i try to bring it to life in a lively and fun way. But yeah it is definitely serious and i do cop to being a much more. I guess maybe much less cynical figure of much more. It may be again, idealistic figure in thinking about the country and thinking about what the stakes are because think its very important. I left the New York Times about six months ago, and i loved the New York Times. I had 16 great years there. And before that, nine great years of the Washington Post. And they i mean, i loved working for great newspapers, institutional. It was a very, you know, heady and weighty and actually kind of pressure filled activity and place to work. But i also feel like im a new stage of my career where i am now writing about freely. But i do feel its at a moment where the stakes higher and i am i am sort of using a new voice. And i think that try out a lot of this here. You know, unfortunately was was, you know, execute it during difficult times and also during the pandemic. And it was cold and i was between jobs and i was probably not a lot of fun to be around as my family can attest to theres a my wife shaking her in the back but again having said all that i do think its a fun book. I hope youll read it. I also hope youll ask questions because i as a print reporter, much more enjoy interactive formats and sort of being able to hone in on what people are actually interested in rather than trying to win it from from a microphone. So but most of all, thank you to brad and lissa and politics and prose and thank you all for being here and ill take your questions and go to the mic and then ill take your questions. If you cant get to the mic for some reason, just like shout out the question and ill repeat it. So we have an oh, we need you out of the mix if possible can you go to the mics or yeah or sorry. All right. Excellent. Well, come on up. Well do first and then carol. Well go second. So thanks for for efforting to do this here. Itll be worth it. Im not going. Okay. Thanks, joe. Cspans here, by the way. So, you know. Yeah, thats at cspan here. Thats good. Thats a very enjoyable. Thank you. Thanks. And i just wondered if you could talk for a few minutes about. Well, just the big joke and the cost for people of the big joke. Its a great question. Its one of my favorite recurring sort of features in the book and. So theres an expression in washington called, well, soandso gets the joke and i remember it was first used when i was reporting on this town when a democratic lobbyist said, oh, well, you know, my lobbying partner who was a republican lobbyist, he gets the joke. And finally said this enough. And theres jack quinn, who was the white House Counsel under clinton, and his lobbying partner was gillespie, who ran for governor and a couple of other offices in in in virginia. And he was, you know, sort of a high level republican operative. And i finally i asked jack, i said, what is the joke . What do you what is this you keep saying . And he would say, you know, its like the unspoken thing that we all know, but we dont really say like, well, what is that . And this was ten years ago. And he said, well, know basically that were all, you know. I might be a democrat and ed might be a republican but were all kind of in business together and we all kind of know what the deal here, which is were all getting rich. So thats the joke. So joke has since evolved. The joke is whatever the unspoken truth that people do not say on the record happens to be at the moment in the Republican Party. In most cases, the joke was that the guy who was leading our party that we pledge utter allegiance to. Is himself a joke is someone we dont have respect for. We think is not fit to be president. At worst, hes a criminal you know, hes a criminal he dangerous. I mean, again, they all knew that. And yet whatever power they had, they refused to use that in this. Trump was very sad but it was the joke. And i heard it again and again and again. So, yeah, yeah, great. So the way up here was actually looking back here profile of Chris Christie and glad that the question was asked about the joke. You know, you you mentioned that Chris Christie seemed get the joke right absolutely back. In 2014, one line stood out, though, which is that you quoted as saying that he went to a governor or a donors convention. Right. And he was big on swagger low on substance. Yeah. And i was just wondering right at. What point that change right. From 2014 where the republicans put up a premium, i guess on substance and not swagger where they nominated. What in your reporting what yeah i mean its funny because christies kind a classic case of a guy who fairly nakedly not literally nakedly but fairly fairly blatantly was. Happy to lay out the game. Chris christie is a smart guy. Hes very savvy. Hes someone who is frankly, you know, hes fun to talk to. You can. You know, hes like a political operative in some ways, like a wise guy. And he loves the sort of game of it, but hes also on some levels a very guy, but hes also hes more of a game player than a serious guy. I mean, he got a lot or a fair amount done as governor of new jersey. He is the kind of person who could have given trump a run for his money in 2016 because they were running against each other. But he basically said, right, im folding my tent. And i think you know, christies basically a small town jersey guy who was afraid of the big bully with dyed orange hair from queens. You know, his rap when he was in new jersey was, you know there are two ways to deal with a bully. One is to sidle up to him and one is to sort of smack him in the nose. And i like to smack him in the nose, which, of course, was the 180 degree opposite of what christie did. So i dont know. I think christie just didnt have the fortitude to do it. I dont know if he would change now, but i had a conversation with him a few months ago. You know, hes out of office. Hes trying to you know, hes a commentator, got consulting jobs and stuff. He making noises about running for president again. I dont think will do terribly well. But i also i dont see him as real, really. You know, the fortitude to take trump on if trump runs again you know any more than he did before. So you know kind of a disappointing ultimately so yeah hi hi thanks for providing a different spin on the enabling of the joke, but how much youve been with many of the different mainstream publications that we all follow, how much of the enabling is due to the Mainstream Media instead of like, why does the Mainstream Media i know its news give them so much. Yeah, why do we not, you know, put it where it belongs in the back, maybe next. The obituaries, you know, why does it so much air . You know, its a great question. I get it a lot i get it actually more now than when i left. After i left the New York Times and i feel like i can answer it. I dont think i ever answered it dishonestly, but i feel like i feel free to answer that question. I think would say a few things. One, media is that organized. Its its not like we have a meeting at the beginning every day. Okay. How are we going to, you know, get clicks today by as much trump in the newspaper or tv as possible . I also am of the belief that he was the republican frontrunner for most of the 2016 campaign. He was the president of the United States. You cant wish someone away by ignoring them. I realize that the ten crazy tweets that donald trump might have written overnight, all horrific and stupid and nonsensical and not deserving of any news. But on the other hand, is the president , the United States and this should be, you know, if hes going to outrageous things that are actionable that people are going to listen to that are going to affect markets the republican the Democratic Party offend large swaths of the population. I think it needs to be out there. I dont think it can be washed away. And i take your point. I think there is a real conversation and an important conversation that should had about the proportion of Donald Trumps rallies being broadcast live on cnn, you know, that go on for hours i mean hours and that happened for a fair amount of time. You know, the election, you know, into his presidency. I think that happened more than it should happen. I think you could definitely make a case that there was disproportionately too much attention given to the hillary email story. I mean, that was that hit home for me. This is my paper mean. Its not like i was in those meetings and. I was making those calls. But i will say and again, i dont say it defensively, just say it as someone who was sitting in newsroom for for for all those years as there is a lot of care and and really responsibility sort of put into you know whether you can use words like racist and lie the front page of the New York Times. I think we the times went back when it was we it was easier to do after a while because it was sort of beyond argument but yeah i, i dont pretend that they got that right or we got that right every day. No, thanks. Well, fair. But yeah. As a i can understand, while he was president that he gets all the air. But why now and why when he was in campaigning. Yeah. I mean, youre still getting all this air now for his he i think hes the frontrunner. I think hes the frontrunner for the Republican Party. I dont think hes getting as much air as he used to mean, partly because he doesnt have a twitter account. But i mean, i get it. I mean, a lot of it is nonsense. But look, i mean, hes the most coveted endorsement in the Republican Party. I mean, people are going down there to kiss his ring. I mean, ridiculously, i mean. If you think about this, by the way. I mean, when jimmy carter got blown out by Ronald Reagan in 1980, democrats werent like going down to plains, georgia, kiss his ring to like get his blessing. I mean, when George Herbert walker bush lost to bill clinton in 1992, you know, its not like republicans were going up to kennebunkport saying, you know, please endorse. I mean, this is a whole different animal and. You could say, well, maybe because the media spends so much time building him up. I just think its its a product of his complete force of personality, shamelessness. The republicans unwilling this just to cut him loose, which i think they can now, but theyre not so, you know, are we getting that right . Every day . Maybe. Maybe not. But, you know, i still think its important to sort of put whats what people who could be president are saying out there. So thank you for your question this. In the last few days there have been reports that Rupert Murdoch has begun criticizing trumps handling of january sixth. And you Say Something about the role of the murdochs in this scheme of things are they trying to control trump or are they just being used like everybody else . Probably a little both. Its a good question. I mean, first of all, i think the impetus for people this discussion now has been basically a single editorial in the new york post, which is his tabloid in new york, which which the Murdoch Family owns. I think the impact of any power of fox news and the primetime lineup on fox news is about a thousand times greater. And i think until fox news turns against donald trump, hes got a great, you know, chance of sort of surviving and getting rehabilitated through everything. Im of the belief that Richard Nixon probably could have survived watergate if. He had fox news at his disposal if he had, you know, and not to mention someone like Kevin Mccarthy, i, i, but i do think fox news a Game Changing you know resource for republican president s who want to keep stay on his right side and yeah are they each other . Probably because you know, the ratings are great. You know, the fox viewers love trump pretty much. Hes entertaining. You know, theres a theres a theory that the murdochs want to move to ron desantis. Im dubious because. I dont think ron desantis be as good box office. And ultimately murdochs are extremely cynical business people. They want ratings and they dont really care what the from what i can tell dont care what the effect on, you know, our our government and our society is. So i dont know. Im dubious. I also think that the second trump you know sort of flexes his muscle muscles if if rupert still alive, hell hell follow along. And, you know, if ruperts kids or i just i see that changing anytime. So thats just me. All right. I consider that trump criminally sent people into to do violence and potentially murder. Is there anything from his past where he has done that kind of thing . Not directly, but encourage people to contribute to violence, you know, hes a pretty amoral character. Wouldnt surprise me mean and also overcome hes survived a lot whether its by just sort of using the law to his advantage or just hiring or just lawyering up or just or just litigating up what have you. I mean, im i dont pretend to know what the Justice Department thinking when they see this. But as a viewer, im consist ive consistently been just flabbergasted this and i just keep asking myself is that legal isnt that i mean how how is that like allowed its just you know i get why not every little thing prosecutable i mean i get why you know Kellyanne Conway running up you know hatch violate like parking tickets is not you know getting the prime attention of the Justice Department. I mean there are these sort of line stepping instances with every administration a bit. I dont know, it just i think its pretty blatant. So whatever hes done in his past i mean, i hope someones taking a look at it. So yeah. Yeah. Thank you for writing your book. Thank you. I think i heard correctly that you said at one point that he could have been stopped. I think so. And, you know, as i read your book and im not quite finished with it, but it just seems to me this all the characters youre writing about come on singly and i mean, mccarthy went up to the Michael Mccarthy something. Graham did they come on as individuals . Yeah. So just thinking about it seems to me he he could have been stopped only people joined forces. Absolutely. Now, what were you thinking, though . What was i thinking. Yeah. That he could have been stopped. I think he could have been stopped. Well, okay. I think he could have been stopped impeachment. One maybe not. It wasnt clear cut. It was a little complicated. And i think, look, once hes president , you get a berth, right . I mean the two times when he could have been stopped were i mean, election day. I mean, election day within a 72 hour period. I mean, he lost. Okay. It was clear within 48 hours that this was trending clearly towards biden. The numbers were moving that way. That is traditionally when every single leader of the party falls line. Okay, the whole like, oh, well, the president has to you know, hes fully in his rights exhaust every Legal Recourse or whatever. You know, thats just absolute. And the reason they werent like lining up to that is because they were dealing with a toddler they were. I mean, theres this now infamous quote that ran a blind quote that ran in the Washington Post within 48 hours of the election where some senior house adviser said, oh, whats the use in humoring him for just a little bit of time, like let him work off a steam, then eventually hell stop tweeting or and we can all get on with our lives, paraphrasing. But yeah, mean. Humoring him was essentially the republican platform still is. I mean, the literal republican platform as certified, inscribed and voted upon in 2020 was whatever donald wants. I mean, it sounds like paraphrasing and i am, but its basically three lines of whatever donald wants and but yeah, they were terrified of him. They terrified Mitch Mcconnell was terrified of the january three, january 5th, a runoff in georgia. There was a Senate Runoff there were two senate seats that he figured they needed to keep. Trump and thats what would republicans in georgia four coming out from coming out. Trump was engaged, but he went to georgia at least once a day, maybe, and basically made it all about him. He said, oh, the election was stolen. Do you believe this know we won the election and you know, when you basically tell republicans, georgia, you know, your vote doesnt count its not going to bring people to the polls, especially when the republicans on the ballot are not trump. So they lost that, but they were just mostly scared. They just thought hed go away. They thought that the problem would take care itself. Then january 6th happens. Okay. There was like a four or five day period when they could have cut him loose like that. I mean, they could have gotten the impeachment votes, conviction votes, im almost certain. But first, Mitch Mcconnell decided, he didnt want to do this and he deftly just despite condemning trump in the most, you know, in the strongest possible terms, he basically said we can were not doing impeachment until after the inauguration. Unclear why. I mean, they could have done that in two days. I mean, everyone lived through what they saw, what happened, they know exactly it started and how it got to, where it did. But mcconnell basically punted this till the inauguration. That gave everyone an easy answer. Its like, oh, why impeach a president whos no longer president . It doesnt make sense. Im voting no. So. And then eight days later, Kevin Mccarthy goes down to mar a lago, kisses the ring. A few weeks later, Mitch Mcconnell says, oh, well, of course, support the nominee. And 2020. I mean, you know, and hes back, right . So. One of my favorite off color but im going to use it anyway. Quotes in his four years was susan glasser. The new yorker wrote a profile of mike pompeo, the secretary of state, and she quoted some of the state department who said that pompeo is like a heat missile for Donald Trumps. Thats a great quote. And i use that as often as possible, including in the atlantic a few weeks ago. And basically, you know, the heat seeking missiles were launched from washington down mar a lago even after the posterior of the former president was rehomed to mar a lago. Its still there. Its a really sad state of affairs, but here we are bit into a scare affairs and its scary. It seems to have this incredible. So i think absolutely theres no question about that. Anyway, thank you but enjoy the book. Yeah its, its fun. Yeah. Yeah its scary situation and my mind. Yeah very frightening that our democracy is on this precipice really. But i was thinking about liz cheney that you said to you know you were in spite of her politics, admiring her. And i certainly have i think we all have. But shes going to go down in flames. Its clear it looks that way. So whats happened then when she loses and then shes going to be off the committee . Not immediately. I mean heres what i think is going to happen. There. I think theres a chance she wins. I probably am wrong. I think its unlikely. I mean, wyoming is the i think i think the smallest in the country or at least the continental u. S. Its also the trump state in country. You know, 70 of the vote in 2020, you know, liz cheney got more votes than trump did. But yeah, it doesnt seem like a ideal place for her. I mean, but, you know, shes getting i mean, yeah, i think its unlikely she wins. I dont think that will stop her from sort of pursuing this. I think she could very well for president or you know, i think kinzinger might if she doesnt, i think you know, i think she has made it very clear and i admire the hell out of this. Shes playing for history. Shes playing keeps. And shes one of the very few people that i interviewed in doing this book that was was willing to say that their legacy that she thinks about, her legacy cares about what her grandkids are going to read about in history books about how their grandma or mother performed during these days. And i guarantee you that you, my grandkids, if they up on history, will will it liz cheney will come out looking a lot better than Elise Stefanik or Kevin Mccarthy or any of that. Now, is that just pollyannish northwest washington guy giving a book talk maybe, but i think that counts for something. I think shes doing an incredible service. I think hearings have been great. I think theyve been performed really. I think i think theyve been a joy, not a joy but i think theyve been a theyve been very effective and i hope they continue. And look, i mean, yeah, i think if republicans win the house, that things going to probably disband pretty quickly. But but theyre, you know, once the truth gets rolling, its kind of hard to stop. And and you the Justice Department still has some time to do their work. And thats pence being able to stand up against not good no, i dont see them doing it. I mean, i think im sort of amazed. I remember watching the last hearings and seeing those, hearing the radio of his secret service detail, actually talking about saying to their families and, and im thinking, you know, pence, if hes watching this and he cant just, like, go up and testify the Committee Like that. So i mean yeah he did the bare minimum on january, which was important i dont want to under value that at all. I think even the bare minimum at a moment of truth is important, but you know, id love to see mike pence of step out of his role a little bit. Yeah. Because he could testify. Yeah yeah i dont know who. Hi. Hi. Sorry, im just going to ask the obvious. I dont it, im confused, im befuddled, i do not understand where he gets the power does he have like the on everybody. Is it like j. Edgar. Does he have the does he know whos gay and in the closet or what . I mean, really, like once he left. Why didnt he . How can he still. I dont get it so completely. Yeah, thats really an and i think many of us are sort of stunned. How is it that nobody has the balls to say to slap him down . Is it that they are that we are all they are all intimidated by a tweet and theyre afraid to be made fun of. And nobody wants to look stupider. I mean, its just sort of stunning to me that nobody i dont know, maybe you know, the answer to oh, i dont know. Letting him know. I got a book on it. You got you got the thing. Im ready. Im ready. When they answer no, i actually bait and switch. I dont i dont really know. But i think i will say this i will say this. I even though this is a trump book. I spent a fair amount of time with him during the 2016 campaign and. You know, it wasnt it got old pretty quickly. You know, i got lot of access to him. I got a lot of like i mean, hes very one thing about him, especially early on. I mean, he allowed himself to be, you know, in cars and is and golf courses and Holding Rooms and everywhere plane and i saw his effect on people mainly his supporters thats a superpower to be able to hold a segment a very loyal segment of the population and sort of controlled those voters and thats scares you know republican who need those votes. But he also said something to me early on that i have not forgot which is we were heading back from a debate at the Reagan Library in simi, california, in late 2015. And it was one of those things where theres, you know, about a dozen people on stage and he totally stole the show. You know he was insulting people. He wasnt making a lot of sense. You know, he got maybe 80 of the attention and and questions and he was right in the center. And he said to me, he said, you know, im going to win. Im going to win because i have a skill. And that is i can sense weakness and people and i can identify it and i can exploit it. Very selfaware for him and. Those people on the stage with me, theyre pretty weak. I can i, theyre going to really come around to me. Im just going to keep pushing and you know, it might take some a while might take ted cruz a while and i take little marco or while might take jeb a while but will come around because im just to take and im just going to take it im just going to like win and im not going to really care. And so hes got a few superpowers. One, hes got the spell over his voters. And two, hes got shamelessness. Like shamelessness creates a kind of warfare, right i remember interviewing hillary right before the election, maybe three or four weeks before the election in toledo, and she is shes an amazingly thoughtful person to talk to one on one. Its cliche, and it doesnt come out enough. And thats a whole other story. But, you know, she she has a really good of things and of people and of how they are playing and so forth and she at one point, were pretty late in our discussion and she was tired. Everyone was like, oh, hillary is going to win. Theres no way she can lose. And, you know, she she clearly looked worn down and she had pneumonia, maybe about few, few weeks earlier. And still kind of feeling the effects. But she said, i. So you ever get, like, nervous about this . Because, i mean, look, i mean, youre youre like on the precipice of being the first woman president and you know history and you know youve wanted your whole life and it looks great and he just did this access hollywood thing. I mean, and he said, i dont go there. She said, i dont go there. And i said, what do you mean . She goes, well, know, it looked like she was not enjoying contemplating it looked like she was probably contemplating something. She might have had a sixth sense about, which is the incredible burden on the person running against donald trump, losing like she could be. Not only the person who loses the presidency, but the person loses the presidency to donald trump and she at one point, you know, if i were going if i were running against mitt romney, mean, yeah, wed have our differences. But i wouldnt a pit in my stomach every night and she wouldnt think about defeat but it was clear that she was when i was sort of pressing around and she was thinking about what it might mean if this didnt go well. And i think she probably knew on some level that what trump had was not being fully measured by the i mean, anyone who was like in trumps orbit, knew there was something there that might not counted. I mean, there was just block after block of supporter tears and it was like, wow, theres this is unlike anything ive seen. And she looked at me as i was leaving and she said, just, im the last thing standing between you and the apocalypse, which i thought was good sound effect, right . It was like we planned it just that train whistle in the background. But so and it was i was actually the last line of the story. I think they made it headline of the story. The u. S. This is hilarious here. We go so so this was it was the headline of the piece and i remember actually talked to her for another story about maybe a year ago and i said, you know, im secretary. Havent talked to you since toledo ohio october of 2016. And the last thing you said to me was, im the last thing standing between you and the and, you know, i happened quote you on that and and put it in the paper. It was a front of the New York Times magazine. So yeah, you warned us. And she said, yeah, you should. You know what . I been meaning to tell you this. See, i told you, and it was kind of funny, but not that funny. Anyway, i forgot how we got there. But he he had something. There was that whole campaign was out of whack. And i think he still has whatever that is, he still has it. It might not be real, but it wont be real until someone fights against it. So that was probably a good place to start. But if you dont mind, one more question. Sure. I appreciate what you say about his shamelessness, and i appreciate what you say about his ability to cash in on peoples weaknesses. Yeah, but i think basically this is my thesis that reason why he has a lot of support is that its basically a racist agenda. We have a lot of racism that. He has tapped into that. People dont want to talk about whether its how he humiliated obama, the birth certificate and everything he has done, how much of his agenda is racist agenda, do you think . I think thats the 35 that he gets. You know, look, theres a lot wrapped up in that. I think i will say this, you know, without making a judgment on all his supporters and, you know, whether theyre racist or not, i mean, i think people are complicated, but i would say this. I think i wouldnt underestimate the level of just sort of resentment that a lot of his supporters have to frankly, people like us, people who. They feel doesnt dont share their values people who they feel have contempt for them, people that they feel, you know, they i mean, again, everyones different. But there was something that always stuck out for me. Theres a concern. Votive theorist, very controversial conservative theorist named Charles Murray who wrote an essay about trumps appeal. And basically the thesis of his essay was. A lot of Trump Supporters dont want to defend him. They dont particularly want their kids to grow up to, be like them, like him. They dont want emulate him, but what they love about him is hes a murder. He actually won he actually was the republican, you know, for the time in a long time, won an election. And through him they could exact revenge. Again, very simplistic. Its generalizing, but i think theres a lot to the notion that trump off a lot of people that they really hated they hated being supporters. And i think it goes far beyond, you know, racist or illiberal views that that many of them might hold. I think thats probably part of it i think, you know, you cant underestimate race on any cultural issue in america right now or ever. But i think theres a lot going on. So. Hi. Hello. So what are your thoughts on, joe biden so far . Do you think hes succeeded in lowering the temperature in washington after the trump . Yeah, yes. And do you expect him to serve a second term . He hasnt lowered the temperature. Its hot as hell outside. Its so biden is unfortunately. You know, i wrote a piece for the atlantic about a month ago saying essentially that essentially explicitly that hes too old and he shouldnt run again. It a little controversial, but i stand by. I think the problem of joe biden is that he in november of 2020, i mean, he will not perform a more Important Service america than he did in november of 2020. And you know, and then unfortunately had to go serve out a four year term in the midst, a pandemic with all kinds of, you know, derangement divisions in the country. And i think he did come the thing down. I mean, he wasnt tweeting like a madman he gave a pretty good inauguration speech and, you know, then he went into a spiral. I mean, afghanis. And look, im of a belief if he stepped aside, said, look, its time to sort of turn this party over to the next generation. You know, let the bench out a little bit, whoever it is. I think the bench will probably come into some focus after the midterms. If a couple of candidates like maybe John Fetterman in pennsylvania or tim ryan in ohio do well, stacey in georgia, whoever i, i think. But i would really love to see some new blood and some new ideas and someone younger, maybe 60, trying to do this. I dont covet thought of a biden trump rematch at all. I dont know a lot of people do. So yeah, i think i think it would be a great for him to step aside or maybe wait till after the midterms if you wanted to do that. But, you know, its its one mans decision. So its like so anyone else. But yeah, id love to sign some books, but we have one more question. Thank so much, if i may. Yeah, i havent the book, but it sounds amazing. Read the book i wont get back to i will read the book i promise. One thing you said earlier that really caught my interest is that youve interviewed a lot of these people directly and you find them to be very and that they candidly admit you that they privately disagree with him. And im just wondering, people like graham or Chris Christie, do they think about the potential for him to become Something Like hitler if he gets . And how do they answer those kind of hypotheticals . How do they reconcile that this is how they answer hypothetical questions . Dont answer hypothetical questions. Now, look, i mean, first of all, they dont they agree with a lot stuff. They dont have a lot of respect for the i mean, its like a difference between i mean, they get a lot of their policy. I mean, they get their judges, they get their tax cut. I mean, they get a lot of their deregulation. I mean, there is some like theres quite a bit of republican that that donald trump has for the party. You know, i dont think privately they like graham and christie dont really respect his intelligence. They dont like chaos. They dont like the the i think theyre probably troubled, the antidemocratic bent and so forth. But, yeah, they dont i mean, as much as far as i would get from from them on the record is, you know, Lindsey Graham would be like lindsey had this way really annoying way of doing the under sort of this, you know the kind of the whats the word keystone cops response like oh hes so incompetent he could never have with the russians right . Hes never run for city council. How is going to like, you know, figure out how to to rig an election with with i mean so he was always like i remember once someone asked graham in a press gaggle, you know, does it bother you that donald trump lies all the time . Because now we all accused of lying during the during the during the primaries. Im like, okay, i mean, like, you know, it was always kind of a glib sort of answer. And i dont think, i think to a person and theres a whole bunch of examples of this in the book. I mean, they dont let themselves talk about they they are either so shallow or so scared or so dismissive of the question they believe that, you know, anything that gets in the way of the short term expediency of keeping donald trump in the day to day or getting to their next election is not worth their time. And maybe theyre too ashamed to contemplate it, but never really got very far. So i remember one sexual aspect. Kevin mccarthy, i said, so do you worry about, you know, history or, like how youll be remembered . And he said, oh you mean the jeff flake thing . And i mean, what do you mean he goes, jeff flake is a senator from arizona, objected to trump. You know, significantly, you know, spoke out him basically lost his viability and, you know, mccarthys point was, wheres the statue to jeff flake in the house, you know, so whats he doing now like hes not hes not office so i dont want to end up like him and so forth. You know, you would think hes also ambassador to austria. So, you know, joe biden appointed him. So anyway, thank you all for coming. This was a really great series of questions and im happy to your books. And as always, thanks to poppy and support poppy, thank. Well, joining us now on book tv is a prolific who has been on many times. Hes got another new book out, george guilders. Most recent book is called life after capitalism life after gambling. What does that title mean, mr. Guilder . It means the emergency is social. Was weve been undergoing, you ow