Transcripts For CSPAN3 Mark 20240704

I sue and i am the managing director at tesoro cultural center, which is a501c3 nonprofit and mission is of course to preserve and share treasures of colorados early history. And most of what we do focuses on the early of the first half of the 19th century. And that makes marx lecture that much appropriate to us and we have begun to read a land acknowledgment statement which id like to read to you for our imaginations, who call colorado home, since its in 1999, this Historic Centers Mission Statement has recognized and celebrated native American Indian cultures tesoro, a signature annual june created in 2000, is the indian and powwow celebrating todays American Indian nations and featuring award artists and intertribal powwow competitors. American indian patriots who fought bravely in american wars and many of colorado indian nations are honored at this event, this public reaches thousands of visitors. Tesoro acknowledges the forbidden the ute nations, the kiowa, southern and northern cheyenne, the southern and northern arapaho, the pawnee, the lakota and many other indian nations that call this beautiful land, home in colorados history, many injustices impact our American Indian nations that call this land home, including removal of most tribes following. The sand creek massacre on november nine, 1864. Consider with ciceros commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion, understanding the historical and current experiences of native peoples will help inform the work we do collectively engaging in building relationships through academic scholarship and collaborative partnerships, acknowledging our past, our present and future native nations, we gratefully acknowledge the native peoples on whose access strong homelands we gather as well as the diverse and vibrant communities who make their home here today as the cesar today and. For those of you who dont know that little coal, huzzah its something we do at the forward all the time to acknowledge a variety of different things. So without further ado, id like to introduce our speaker today Mark Lee Gardner, a native of Mark Lee Gardner who has authored Award Winning books on billy the kid and pat garrett. Jesse james and theodore roosevelt. Hes written for National Geographic history. American heritage, the Los Angeles Times and numerous other print and online publications. Hes also appeared on pbss his American Experience as well on the History Channel and see the travel channel and on npr, gardner holds an emmy in american studies from the university of wyoming and lives with his family. The foot of pikes peak now. To add to that list of accomplished means, we have his most current book, which is the source of this talk and is the earth is all that lasts at the end of march. Select your and ill remind you about him again he does copies here that are for sale. And at the end of the lecture youre more than welcome to purchase one and to get it signed by mark. So without further ado, here is our speaker mark gardner of where im from would say this is even more this is an even better accomplished true magazine has chosen mark as the Nonfiction Author of the year excuse me and the nonfiction fiction of the year mark thank you. How do i power on the clicker. Its actually can set it down there for me. Thank you. Thank you, sue, thanks for being here. I want to give you a maybe a little more about what journey i took get here and what brought me to writing book. I come from a long line of loggers, men that cut timber, maples and walnuts for several generations. My family, the gardener family has logged in missouri, north missouri and south missouri. I spent many a day as man in the woods with my dad taking gas and oil to the chainsaw, hooking up the choker to, the of those trees. They could be dragged out a skitter to a log truck. Now clearly my passion was not logging and i chose another that i really cherish and treasure those those days i had with my dad in the missouri woods in the sixties, seventies and and early eighties, but you know, my dad, he only made it to like the sixth grade. I dont think even graduated from the sixth grade because he had to help granddad in the woods and the sawmill. They had a sawmill for a while and my dad had a sawmill in the country on a blacktop for a while as well. My mom had me when was 17 years old, so she finish high school, but my and my mom made sure when we were kids that he took off for a week, two every summer. And we on a vacation and. Not only were they educating their children, me and my two younger sisters, but they were themselves. My mom had never really been around either had my dad. And so they loved history. And i dont. There was a battlefield or a Historic House or a museum that we didnt stop at as a family. And one of those early memories one of the first places i can recall was little bighorn battlefield, old and montana. And a young boy. I mean, it was just so overwhelming. You know, i was at the site of this great combat between American Indians and in blue coats, long knives or soldiers. And of course, as a young boy, my fascination was with custer and. The more than 200 men that perished with him, and there was no one course. This is way they phrase. There was no one left to tell the tale of this defeat. But as i got, of course, there were all kinds of people left who told the tale they were the victors. They were lakota, as they were the cheyenne. There were sitting bull two moons crazy horse. There were all kinds of people that left to tell the tale and how custer, the great civil war hero, met his defeat overlooking the little bighorn valley on june 25th, 1876. And that has always a fascination for me and i was very fortunate as a young man. I worked for the National Park service as a seasonal park ranger. I spent three summers at vince, old Fort National Historic Site. I spent the summer harpers ferry, and then after later as career as a director of Historic Site trinidad, colorado, i started freelancing and i got to go back and do histories of some of these parks. So i had visited as a child, western National Parks association hired me to do the general booklet on little battlefield. And if you go to little bighorn today, youll see my book its for sale there. They call it a general interpretive publication so ive always been fascinated that story. And as sue mentioned, ive done some other books about jesse james. I grew up in jesse james country, of course, and billy the kid and pat garrett, but i wanted to revisit that that momentous occasion that battle between the lakota and custers men. And i really wanted to focus on the lives of probably the two most fierce believers and non coex with the whites. And that was crazy horse and sitting bull. And thats how this book came about. Its about their but also their struggle to protect their people and their culture, their heritage and their language and their lifeways and know sitting bull and crazy horse never signed a treaty and a lot of book talks. I being im not going to try to tell you everything thats in the book i would prefer you read the book, but ill give you a little brief background. Sitting bull was hank poppa, one of the divisions of the western sioux lakota as he was both a war leader, a political leader and a revered holy man had the gift of prophecy, and well talk about that in a minute. He was born about 1831. Crazy horse was oglala, another tribe of the lakota, born about 1840. So hes about nine years younger. He was a fierce warrior and maybe the most acclaimed, most heroic of all lakota of all time. As a young boy, he had hair and his nickname was curly, and it was very light. And he had light complexion. So he had a fairly different look than most lakota is at the. And he was very quiet, a modest he didnt like to speak council meetings. The only time he seemed to really show true emotion was on the battlefield and men wanted to follow him. He had several horses shot out, underhanded, various encounters with enemy tribes as well as the white man, but both sitting bull and crazy horse emerged as. The leaders of what i call the anti bans. And those were the ones who wanted to live apart from whites who did not want to live on reservations and. Thats what found them away from the whites in the little bighorn valley in 1876, where they were found by custer and his men. So this talk is really about decisions. I love talk about you know how a book is made the craft of writing a book. I had kinds of resources to in putting this together and i use dozens, dozens of oral histories of lakota that were fortunately preserved, written down in the late 1920s and 1930s. One of the questions i often get asked, you know, did you go and and talk to living lakota and i really didnt do that because wanted to use the story of those who were contemporaries of, sitting bull and crazy horse, who fought them, who were related to them. And fortunately, as i, there are a lot of those accounts that are theres literally dozens and i list in the back of the book all the different oral histories, the names of the individuals whose stories that i used in writing this book. So fortunately i didnt have to to go and interview descendants today because i wanted to use primary sources and Actual Stories of those who there and experience those battles in those times. The other thing that i was able to use is resources today different from ago and when i started out as a historian today there are literally of newspapers that have been scanned digitized and i found oral histories or accounts by lakota that were published in the late 1800s, early 1900s. I use those sources as. Well, my wife who was here can tell you we traveled all over the Northern Plains. We even crossed the holy line into canada, where sitting bull escape with his followers after the little bighorn. So i had a plethora of resources, stories to consult and your book can only be so long. You cant be too thousand pages, so youre constantly decisions as a writer to make that narrative powerful. The information that needs to be there, make sure its accurate and you have to cut things that really you would love to include and youre not cutting them because. Thats not good. Its just theres just the room or the space or it doesnt fit in that chapter that youre writing. And since this talk is about decisions, i this is a Little Something i wanted add in this is the cover of the book thats being printed for sale today but it wasnt the only cover we considered and im going to show you another cover that our designer at harpercollins put together. This could have been cover of the book and i do like this. The the actual image is a stephen Standing Bear drawing on muslin of the battle the little bighorn. And a lot of thought goes into covers because despite that saying dont judge a book by its cover a lot of people the covers what makes you pick it up when youre at the store and so we went back and forth but we finally decided the one on the left was the one that we used. Thats a photograph made by joseph dixon in the early 1900s when there was a gather ring of lakota leaders and shine leaders. Little bighorn thats actually taken a little bighorn and so thats was we thought was the more compelling cover. But what i like to do when i give this talk is i like to do a poll and a show of hands to see if we made the right decision. So for those who prefer the cover on the left lets see, a show of hands. Okay, now cover on the right. You know, its about equal. Thats interesting. So okay, well, we wont it were going to keep it like that. The. Okay so lets talk about some things that didnt make it into the book. The earth is all at last. This is a photograph thats actually in the book. The man on the right is horn chips. He was a cousin of crazy horse thats his wife to his right called fields all around it horn chips was a legendary holy man and holy man one of their duties was they prepared quote war medicine for the warriors and. These would be made up of charred arms effigies, horns, ships, was known as a stone dreamer. So a lot of his medicines involved a stone of some kind. And for crazy horse was crazy horse a medicine man . They also friends. And again, he was a cousin of crazy horse. But for crazy horse he made for him, he took a black stone, which had a small stone. It had a hole in it, and he encased it in buckskin. And he told crazy horse protection to wear this stone his armpit so it would be tied with a leather under his arm. He also crazy horse and holy will interpret the visions of of warriors and and help them and again try to create medicines to to give them more power and to protect them in in violent encounters and battles. So he also told crazy horse that he was never to wear a headdress or war bonnet. You know, the classic war bonnet that you see. Well, for instance, like corn chips as were in this photo, told him, never wear a war bonnet, but wear a single feather in your hair from a spotted eagle and crazy horse went into battle with hardly anything on but a breach cloud, a in his hair and a few blades of grass. Also in his hair that again something, that came from his vision but it was very important to crazy horse to to go through and dress exactly as was told before he went into battle and horn ships was legendary in part because everyone knew he was crazy horse was a holy man. And i mentioned earlier crazy horse had several shot out from under him. He was never, you know, rarely wounded. He was a wounded occasionally, but he survived all these amazing encounters. Ill tell you one story which i thought was very telling the crows who enemies with the lakota dakotas, the crow said, we always recognize crazy horse because was way out in front of everybody else. He was in front of all you, other lakota warriors. So we all know who crazy horse is. And you could say the same thing for the blue coats or the white soldiers. Crazy horse would do what was called bravery runs and bravery. Run is you race in front of the line of the enemy by yourself on horseback and draw their fire and crazy horse did multiple bravery runs and was never knocked off his horse or or seriously wounded. Another reason for the bravery runs crazy horse knew this was it in the days before repeal weapons. If you drew the fire, the enemy, it took them time to reload and so the other workers could rush in. That was another reason for these. These it was still dangerous, but it was another reason for these bravery rules. So why am i talking about horn ships and about things that are left out . This is an example of the charm or war medicine that horn ships would make. There is a collection in south dakota of dozens of these charms. It came from the family of horn ships. Um he made various charms just for use in battle. But horn ships it was claimed, made a charm for love. Crazy horse very. He was quite taken with a married woman and a horn. Supposedly made this charm so that this married woman would fall in love with crazy horse. Im not going to get too much into that in. The book. But crazy horse took off with this woman and horn ships apparently was in some danger from the the husband of the woman because he had supposedly made this charm. But these charms. I got to examine in person. Let me give you another picture. Thats a guitar pick the bottom. So theyre very small, theyre handmade for brain ten buckskin. They came from the horn ships, family, and theyre said to have been crazy horse as charms according to what we know and i was told once was killed, all these went back to haunt ships and they stayed in the family. And theyre quite exquisite. I mean, the detail and like i said, each each has a purpose. It was made for some protection, love, sickness various things that would encounter in life as a lakota but i just struggled these charms. I examined them. They looked right but there were just there were dozens of them and i, i just in my could not confirm that these indeed had once belonged to crazy horse. Im not saying that they didnt they could very well have, but it just wasnt enough for me to include these the book and i would have loved to include a picture but i just im going to include something im not 100 because you. 100 believe that it is indeed what im saying. Its going to be so i had to leave some of these pictures of, these charms out. I understand that this collection is now at the memorial in dakota. You know, the big you know, the mount rushmore, like a carving. And it i ill answer this question before i get asked. This is one of the questions i always get asked. And ill say no, i do not know when the crazy horse memorial is going to be completed. So i have no insights into. This is another one. I mean, theyre just beautiful. Theyre theyre theyre really correct for the time. And, you know, the owner had the lineage and, the provenance and all that. But i just could not become convinced that were indeed belonged to crazy horse. Och heres Something Else that i had to leave and for a different kind of reason. So i mentioned before that that cover of the the potential cover for the book was by stephen Standing Bear, a mini kaiju lakota and he was a Famous Artist and he lived from 1859 to 1933. But in the early 1900s he did many, many and drawings. If you ever read a great book i can highly recommend it called elk speaks by hart, published in 1932. Stephen Standing Bear did the illustrations for that book. He did several images of the little bighorn, and this one is is just a spectacular image. It not only includes the little bighorn battle up there in the upper portion of the drawing, but here in the and i think theres a pointer here. This area depicts the famous sitting bull sundance. So were going to talk about this sundance for a minute in early june, near a rock formation known today as the deer rocks in montana, lakota, the anti treaty bands and lakota and the gather for this annual and sitting bull dance the sundance here now, ill give you a little bit of background on sundance. The sundance was a religious and social gathering very several tribes, lakota and sometimes cheyennes gather for this and luther Standing Bear the it is a it was tribute to the great spirit for life and its blessings. Now the warriors who danced the sundance, they did it because. Perhaps they had asked the great or walking target for protection in a battle, and they would Say Something like they pray to walk and talk. If you would protect in this fight with the crows, i will dance the sundance for you sometimes it would be for something in the future and shortly before the sundance june of 1876. Sitting bull parade to walk and talk for the welfare of his people please bring us food protect us and i will dance for two days and two nights. The sundance stephen Standing Bear was at this sundance. He was an eyewitness. And this his depiction of it and a typical sundance you have these shade arbors that go all the risk of spectators and then youll have individual warriors dancing, the dance, and theyre tethered. Theyre skewers that are, you know, poked through their chest and. These leather rawhide ropes are tied to the holy pole or holy in the center, and they dance. And before they dance, theyve have fasted they have gone through various and so theyre malnourished. I havent eaten there. Like i said, they had fasted and they dance and they pull against those those ropes that pull until finally they break free and generally, the idea is also, while dancing is that, you know, if if if youre blessed, you will have a vision of some kind. Now sitting, bull had promised to this dance two days and two nights, but he didnt it with the skewers in the ropes. His dance was. He was going to, quote, give flesh. And so out of each arm, there were 50 small pieces of his flesh about the of a match head that was cut from each arm, one arm at a time. Once that was cut. Then he stood up, danced, and they didnt directly at the sun. Thats a bit of a misnomer. Werent staring. They would stare just beneath the sun. So sitting bull up and danced so again. Hes fasted, hes lost blood now a lot of blood from his arms and hes just danced in constantly through the day and the night. And at the end of the second day, he sees from beneath the sun. He white soldiers. Soldiers coming with heads down their hats falling off. He interprets as theyre dead. These men are. Theyre falling down out of the sky. He also sees lakota warriors that are coming falling with heads down. So theres also going to lakota who were killed in some upcoming battle. This was announced to the entire gathering there that he had this great vision there is going to be a great victory in the future against the long knives and all occurred at this sundance. And what happens later. I told you he has the gift of prophecy. June 25th, 1876. The soldiers of George Strong custer come. Out of the sky. Come out of the hills and they are defeated in a great victory of the lakota is in the cheyenne now. I really to include this illustration in book im going to show a little bit heres detail and again you have the the spectators here the arbor you have the dancers that are tied to the holy pole or the holy tree that great on the big screen. But it doesnt look that great in a small on these pages of illustrations. So even though i wanted to use it, it was going to be so small, i decided that i would just have to skip that i have Something Like 50 illustrations, but it was just so difficult for the person to see. So you get to see it here, but its not in the book. I one of the things i love to do in a book are epigraphs i like to start a chapter with an epigraph, a short phrase or saying that encapsulates the theme of that chapter. And i and i spent a lot of time looking for and when i find something i like, i it down and i save it. Then later i get to that chapter. I put it in. So this is example. This is in the book and i just love this this is from father desmet. It is not possible to change the nature of any race of men. In a moment it is possible to change the nature of any race of men. In a moment he sent that. Because thats what the white man Us Government was trying to do. This starts the chapter where crazy horse has surrendered to the Us Government and crazy horse had been free his entire life. His people had been free and all of a sudden theyre on a reservation. They have to sign for, you know, food and goods. A lot of his people, including crazy horse were afraid to sign to. Its a receipt. All it was was receipt for rations. They didnt want to sign it because they were afraid they were signing away land. Every time somebody touched the pen. They were losing land. Its like we dont want to put we dont want to sign an x or anything else what do we what are we giving away . So they would put the the children in boarding. They would forbid them for speaking their native language. They really tried to erase their culture entirely. And they tried to do it in a generation you cant change the nature of any race of men. In a moment. So crazy horse resisted against this and it cost him his life. He was killed at fort robbins in nebraska in september of 1877. So i thought this phrase what they were trying to do to crazy horse later sitting bull people summed up exactly that entire chapter. Well, heres an epigraph that i found wonderful, but i just couldnt find a way that i thought it worked in the book. This is from sitting bull the indian that says he likes a white man is a liar and white man that thinks the indian likes him is a fool. Now theres some truth to this. Ill give you an example. This actually involves. I will come across accounts and this ones from one of the post surgeons at Fort Robinson valentine, mcgillicuddy. And he would write in later years. Crazy horse and i were good friends. We were close friends. Well, mcgillicuddy, at that time didnt speak any lakota. He was he was a doctor. So he was treating sitting bulls wife for tuberculosis. So he did come contact with him. But as one scholar pointed out to me, perhaps mcgillicuddy thought they were good friends. But do we really know that crazy horse thought of themselves as friends . We dont know that well i have nothing from crazy horse saying, oh, yes, my good friend doctor mcgillicuddy. So yeah, the white man thinks an indian likes him a fool. So there is some truth to this saying for sitting bull. The reason i had trouble with this epigraph is that i think it was spoken at a time when sitting bull was a very bitter person. You know, was fighting against impossible odds, white men encroaching upon their land, killing their resources, are buffalo. And he always this bitter person. And as i got into sitting bulls personality, he liked joke. He smiled and laughed a lot. He was a human being. But you know, we see the photographs of sitting bull. If you ever see a photograph, sitting bull smiling. No so very stoic. And i you know, i would love to have used this at the beginning of the book, but its like that would kind of set the mood for the entire book. A sitting bull is as bitter individual and as a hater of the white man. He wasnt always a hater. There were certain things he hated, but it just, you know, as much as i love this epigraph, it didnt in my book and i did not end up using that. Okay, this individual is named john burke. He was also known as arizona. He was the manager, general manager for Buffalo Bills wild west exhibition. And in 1885, john burke to the Standing Rock reservation. Sitting bull had surrendered in 1881, and eventually, after spending some time as a prisoner of war at fort randall on the Missouri River. He was moved to Standing Rock. There were other hung poppies, others, his people. And there were many attempts that were made to get sitting bull to tour various exhibitions. And he did travel, you know, with another before he traveled with buffalo bill. But in 1885, buffalo bill had been trying for years to get sitting bull. And finally he the permissions he had letters from general sherman and and finally was able to convince the Indian Bureau to let him make a deal with sitting bull and his general manager traveled to stay in iraq and john claimed it took him four weeks of negotiating to get sitting bull to finally accept and travel with buffalo bill which he did in the year 1885 during that Summer Season into the fall, john burke had lots of neat reminiscences about his time with bull. One of my favorites, kind of legendary. They were on a street, i believe it was in saint paul. And he said sitting bull, of course, in the contract, not only did sitting bull get paid much, but it says hes to sell his photograph and autograph and he generally got a dollar for his autograph. And john burke says, we were going down the street sitting, just sold three autographs and he had three silver dollars and was an old woman on the street. Gray and she was begging and he she says sitting bull immediately dropped all 3 into the hat. The woman and john burke was, i mean, 3 was, you know, a good amount of money. And he just gave it away and and john burke, you know, question sitting bull and sitting bull said shes old, cant work. And she says, you know, dont let my people be beggars. I dont i dont why white men allow their people be beggars and what john burke didnt understand was that one of the four virtues of the lakota is is generosity. A great gave away. He gave to those in need. He didnt. The greatest leaders usually had nothing. When sitting bull surrendered at fort buford, he looked the most ragtag of the entire lot because made sure as a great leader that you give you provide the agent at Standing Rock, james mclaughlin, after sitting bull got back from this tour. He he hated sitting bull and he said he wasted his money. He gave all of these big fees and just well, he wasnt wasting his money he was sharing his wealth. He was being generous. That was what was of a great leader. Sitting bull was a great lakota leader. And so he gave what he had and he provided feast for his people. Um, so im showing this picture, john burke, and talking about this because this is Something Else john burke is mentioned the contract, the book. But i came across this telegram, this was sold at an auction i think it was cowans auction a few years ago. And it touched me. It tells about the relationship between john burke and sitting. This was sent shortly after. The news came out that sitting bull was murdered by Indian Police and the Standing Rock reservation on december 15th, 1890, john burke heard about it. He sent a telegram right away to. James mclaughlin he says, save me some memento of bull, a lock of hair will a lock of hair with all his. Yeah, a lock hair with all his faults. I liked him. Well with all his faults, i liked it. Well, they had a connection. He liked him. He wanted something of sitting bull after sitting bulls death. This. I kind of had a hard reading it even on his big screen. It just wasnt going to reproduce. I didnt well enough in the illustration insert, but i was touched by this that john after a few years after this tour that he he wanted something to remember sitting bull by because they were close. Okay some things were left out of my book, not by choice, but because i was an idiot. So last summer i was preparing to talk on art of sitting bull, sitting bull was well known for creating lots of pictographs. There are several. We have several sets of these. He did a lot of it at. Fort randall, while he was a prisoner of war. This said this from a set that was done from the post trader or done for the post trader. A man named pratt and as i was putting my talk together and id already gone through these. In fact, i took these photos and these are the Buffalo Bills center of the west and cody, wyoming. I took this photo, i took photos of all that series that was there that sitting bull had done and see if we can read. I just happened to. You know for, some reason i didnt really studied closely what the what the legend says at the bottom but i will say that apparently after sitting bull drew these drawings, he told pratt, the post trader, what which episode was represented. And so pratt, in his handwriting, wrote at the bottom what these depict and these autobiographical pictographs are so helpful. You he sitting bull was very good about recording his various he probably heard the word coup before the coup is could be anything its a heroic act or deed so it might be touching an enemy capturing horse, capturing a hostage or a captive, but are measured in lakota warriors srt by the amount of coups that you had and it was important that you have a witness as well and many warriors would put together these drawings showing you know all their different coups and sitting bull had many many coups thats. One thing a lot of people dont realize about sitting bull they think of him as this leader and this holy man, but actually he was his career. He was an amazing warrior, incredible warrior. So he did have a lot of coups. But this occurs after the battle. Little bighorn says here, killing a crow indian who belong to general miles command, sitting bull wears a war bonnet which, once belonged to crazy horse. Now one of the questions i get all the time, how close were crazy horse and sitting bull . They not only allies, but they were friends, sitting bull nephews who were interviewed in the 1920s and thirties confirmed this they were friends. But heres another confirmation. Somehow sitting bull has a war bonnet that belonged to crazy horse they crazy horse give this to sitting bull. And you might remember earlier i said crazy horse was not supposed to wear a war bonnet in battle. Doesnt mean he couldnt have a war bonnet wear it for other occasions. He just couldnt wear it in battle. But i think this is so that sitting bull felt it important that the post trader know im wearing war bonnet that once belonged to great war. Chief crazy horse and he drew a picture of it. So i was an idiot. I missed that. Its not in the book, but the book is being and that picture is in the second printing. So im so grateful for second printings because you have a chance. Go back and tweak little things. Maybe theres a typo. There was a handful typos. So those are fixed. I cant say that my publisher because the hardback has sold really well, that theyre pushing the paperback release that was going to come out may. Now, the paperback will be out in january of next year. But the second printing of the hardback will have that image in there, which means if you get a book today, its going to be super valuable because itll be different. So but anyway i was so i really i cant tell you out how excited i am to be able to get this into the book and how stupid i feel. But i didnt want to miss earlier. Okay, this, this is something definitely killed me. Not to get into the book. I mean, i was just so i just wanted this to be in so bad. Not this particular letter but im going to read with this says came this is a letter that was sent general terry dated september 7th, 1881. And its a asking that of well ill just read the letter here. Captain paul boyton, the aquatic navigator, thats what they call captain boyd. Hes known as the navigator who intends swimming from head of and down the Missouri River to saint louis, requests me to ask you, if possible, for you to have an order issued to the troops and force on above route and informing hunters and others of proposed voyage in order that he may not be mistake for anything different and probably shot at as. This has been the case in several places in more civilized parts, he thinks an extra caution more necessary on the present route. So captain boynton, the aquatic navigator, apparently looks very different and hes going to be swimming the river like i know exactly whats going on here and why. You know, in the 19th century, youre in the wilderness. See something thats different. What the hell is that thing . I dont know. Why dont you shoot it . So thats what hes of . Because that did happen to him. Ill you. Why . He looks so different. This was his get that he wore captain paul boyne. It was similar to todays dry suit. It had pouches or, compartments that could be inflated with air through tube and he floated he actually floated in his suit across the english channel. He did all kinds of crazy. They claim he had saved it. It was actually developed as a life saving device and it was he had saved like the lives of 87 people wearing the suit. But this is how he he actually floated on his back in the suit. Theres a little this is funny. That little satchel hes got like his some of his gear in there, i guess maybe hes got some cookies or something and on and hes got the flag. It was it it it floated kind of like a modern day and he would go down the rivers. And what was even more impressive when he went pass by towns shot fireworks off of his stomach. So you know here we go shooting the fireworks off and you know using his suit and he actually went by fort randall and met sitting bull in 1881 while sitting bull was a prisoner of war. I mean, it coincided the same time there was a journalist and usually there was a small canoe that traveled behind him and. There was a journalist named james kriegman who went on this journey and reported about this trip down the the Missouri River. And it turns out. It actually was his accomplishment. It says here that he started it near glendive, montana, ended at saint louis,. 1675 miles, floating down missouri. On his back, he appeared at coney island later. And of course, hes traveling here with the p. T. Barnum exhibition. But again, this gives you an idea it was it was a super popular act that he did and he made his career on this suit and floating on his back down rivers. And like i said across the english channel, i so wanted to captain boyton in my book fact i thought man, somebody whos write a book about captain boyton, but you know, it just did not work. And so you will not find captain boyton and the earth is that last, even though its a great vignette and i would have loved to have had it in there. So thats an example of some of the things that had to make choices and decisions about. I love talking that again, as i mentioned earlier, because, you know, its its the craft of writing and im so into narrative, i want the narrative to flow. I want it to be fast paced. I dont want little tangents. Theyre going to take you. They call them rabbit holes. And i hear from so many readers, you know, i was reading this book and then there was whole section, you know, on the winchester that went on for pages and, you know, i didnt want my book to be like that. I had to make a lot of hard choices and i had to leave out captain boyton and john burke and others. So i guess we have some time for some questions, sir. Yes, i have you to call it big graph. The greasy grass is what i use the book. Its known that. Well, for those of you, thats native name for the little river is a greasy grass river. I do use that in the book, but people are familiar with it as a little today. Yeah, so thats why. Yes. Would you tell us about how you came up with the title . Yes. Im glad you asked that because i asked that a lot. And it is explained in the book but the phrase the is all that last was a rallying cry. You know, its a battle little bighorn. Well in other in counters and fights the leaders like crazy horse are sitting bull. They would say brave up. You know, its a day to die. The earth is all lasts. You know, were not meant to be here forever. So, you know, give yourselves bravely, bravely protect our people. You know, youre not going to live forever. One of my in fact this is an epigraph one of my favorites in the book, luther Standing Bear, whos a great cultural intermediary. He published some books in the 1930s about life, a lakota, and he had gone to a school, so he learned english and he could and and i used his his works a lot as far as interpreting life. And hes his father told him his father said, i never want to see you grow to be an old man. I want you to die on the battlefield. Thats the way a lakota, the earth is all the last. You know, die on the battlefield. So thats thats the meaning of that phrase. Yeah. Do you make mention in your book . I havent read your book yet. You make mention in your book of native American Indian chiefs of the times, for example, the Bozeman Trail and the red. Yes, you make mention. I do. Yes. Red clouds in the book. And of course, crazy horse was a central figure in the year of the fighting. The ferryman or the one in the hand red cloud and another leader spotted tail. And im crazy was a sitting bull ended up being not very fond of people red cloud and spotted tail because they were called treaty chiefs. You know once red cloud signed the fort treaty of 1868, he never fought with crazy horse or he never he never went to battle and a way that were not in the way it harmed the goals. The anti treaty beings. When you had leaders like spot until the brutal days and red cloud who sided with the white man they felt like they were turncoats in a way, you know, so they dont come out very favorably in my book just because focus is on crazy horse sitting bull. But yes, i deal with those other leaders that were of both crazy horse and sitting bull yeah what what drawn on the color of me crazy horse well, not even going to try to, i guess thats an american name. Well, its a translation. So for instance, sitting bull to tonka, ill talk is sitting bull crazy horse too soon . Okay. Wheat co sometimes its brown wheat co. Thats the lakota names. But im not you know, im a lakota speaker, so lakota speaker probably do a lot better job with that. Thats the english translate, the literal translation sitting bull and crazy horse. I can tell you interesting based on that translation thats of the really tricky things about kind of scholarship that goes into this book youre relying on the interpreters and how thats written down these scholars who are listening, theres no guarantee 100 that its the true meaning of transcriptions or translations. And ill give you an example and. This is in the book. There was a incident in 1873 where a band of ponies were essentially massacred by in nebraska and one of the warriors mentioned the in the newspaper accounts was a warrior named mad horse. Now mad can also be interpreted crazy. And i believe and i have this in the book that that warrior that they interpreted and this was before was famous i think was a matter of translation. And i believe mad horse was actually crazy horse because mad and crazy can be interpreted the same way. So thats you know, thats those fine things. So you have to really attention to and and like i said, its its one of the tricky aspects of going with written down transcriptions of speaking and did the interpreter give you know, the meaning another example try to go too long here soon red cloud speaking of red, he went to washington short time after the treaty of fort laramie, 1868. And while cloud was there, he had some questions about what they had agreed to and and what red cloud said. He agreed to wasnt exactly what they were talking about in washington. And so the secretary interior had the treaty document read to the lakota is in lakota red cloud became incensed he said thats not what i agreed to and then wanted to know who the interpreter was. He was let go after. I didnt agree to that. That happened all the time. You know, they would be you know, heres the translation and heres here on the line or put your x and then it turns out thats not what was hearing. Um, another thing about that treaty for laramie, they had a big meeting for the signings and they asked, you know they allowed the lakota to speak. But what they didnt know was, is that they spoke and asked for all these different things, but they didnt change it. I mean, they had already had it prepared. Sure, you can speak, but here glen sign, you know, touch the pen so yeah so the translations was an issue then as it can be today as. Well yeah. Um hum. Well within the living by that late time round here, 1855 for instance the comanche collapsed because all the buffalo died, the drought basically. Yeah. Well in the 1870. Well lets by the battle little bighorn it was becoming difficult to find on the Northern Plains food bison or you know whatever they were hunting it was you know because of overhunting and, the road trade and the high trade. And that was one of the things that you both with the red cloud war and later that the lakota as were trying to preserve homeland and protect from all these incursions they didnt want to trail going through they didnt want to Railroad Going through they didnt want miners living in the black hills, which was, you know, their sacred area. Thats where, you know, their touchstone was the black hills. So, yes, it was shrinking dramatically. And no matter what they did you know and the those in control with the military, you know, sherman knew they knew that once that food source was gone, that their life would be over as they knew it. So they did their best to try to keep that. And they they failed. Ultimately, you know, sitting bull tried to go to to canada to escape across the holy land, but the resources were there were just as poor and there were other tribes already there who was competing for those the canadians really didnt want sitting bulls lakota there. And finally at one time after the battle, little bighorn, there were some 3000 or more lakota in canada by the time sitting bull surrendered in 1881, he had hundred and 87 followers. They were the last holdouts. A few lakota did stay in canada, but, you know, sitting bull either had the choice of i can watch my people die from starvation or i can surrender. And my chances, you know, on a reservation speaking to that. So one of the reasons sitting bull with buffalo bill in 1885, he was promised that he would get a chance to talk to the president. Grover cleveland. It wasnt just about making money. That was a huge enticement. I want to see the president. He was going to advocate for his people. He said i want to place set aside for i want broad piece of prairie says, the white man on everything, even the sky. I want something for ourselves away from the white man and he couldnt wait to get to see the president and ask for that. So they get to washington and the officials, the government, they thought we are were going to show impressive things. They took sitting bull and they showed him the original declaration of independence. You got to see the original declaration. And i just you know, and i had the newspaper accounts. But i have to wonder, when they interpreted this is sitting bull wondering do these same truths that we that all men are equal . I mean arent my people. I mean, its such a profound moment. But then he gets to the white house. So heres his meeting with grover cleveland, all he got was a handshake. Thats it. It was a photo op. Basically just to him. He was so upset and the interpreter tried to soothe sitting bull. He said sitting bull did you know that there are white men that come to singapore and they spend weeks waiting to see the president . You know, you get to see president and all sitting bull said was white men are fools. You know, he was so disappointed. Ill tell you, this book, ive written several books. This was the only book that on many, many times. It made me angry you know, it made me angry and sad to see. I thought i knew the story. You know, like i said, i wrote the little bighorn story. I didnt even know half of it. And this was a book that made me angry. But i will say, though, that i hope that what you take away from this book is not anger, but inspiration. These men gave their lives for their people, for their culture. They never signed a treaty. They refused to sign a treaty. And it cost them their lives, but they served as inspiration for everything from the wounded knee take over 1973 to the Dakota Access pipeline. They their leaders today for not only lakota but i really think for all americans and around the world. So thank you so i really appreciate it. Oh, one more question. Would by saying again how they both died. Yes, i can tell you briefly how they died so crazy horse surrenders. 1877. You know, i mentioned earlier his personality. He was he was quiet he was a very modest person. He didnt boast or brag and, you know, it was like, say, a shy person. He was considered even amongst the lakota is a unusual reason those wrote a biography that published in 1940 and the subtitle, the strange man of the oglala. Well, when he gets on the reservation, the agent and the officers, they interpret his odd quirks or what have you is being resisting, you know, sullen. And they interpret it the wrong. They dont accept him. And all they tried to do was kind of him into being their friend. And, you know, one of the officers wrote about he called it, you know, im trying to work him to work him, you know, to get him to do what they want to do. And as i said before, sitting bull would live free his entire life. Its people have been free and there was a lot of jealousy on. The the Red Cloud Agency there, which is in itself nebraska, Fort Robinson. And getting back to red cloud red cloud was jealous because, i mean, crazy horse was this legendary leader was the last to come in and was a rumor that went about that, you know, they wanted crazy horse to go to washington and that crazy horse would be appointed the head of all dakotas. And so red cloud was jealous. His uncle spotted tell was jealous of crazy horse and the power that he had and the influence that he. And then there were rumors, false rumors were being spread that crazy horse going to break out with his people and leave. Thats the you know, if you want to terrify some white people tell them that crazy horse is getting ready to break out and and killings. And so this, you know, really alarmed the officials and the government decided to send general crook, were going to send general crook there to Fort Robinson. We can have a meet with crazy horse. Well, then crook is there another and this is a false and we believe it probably came from clouds camp that crazy horse was plotting to kill cook in a meeting. Now, this wasnt too far fetched because there was a case where an American General canby, was murdered in a meeting with a native. So this had happened in the past. And so they decided, well, you know, were going arrest crazy horse, were going to put a stop to this. And crazy horse heard the rumors about, the arrest. He fled to the spot agency wasnt too far away. Were saw spot a tail lived with this people and the agent there convinced crazy horse to back to Fort Robinson. I promise well have a meeting with the with the officer in charge there. The Commanding Officer, and well ask him. Crazy horse wanted to move the stand. Im sorry. He wanted to move to the spot until agency because he says, you know, theres bad wind, bad here, stories, rumors. Theyre the red agency. Well, lets go to robinson i promise you, youll get to meet with the Commanding Officer. Well he gets to Fort Robinson. And of course, theres the order, the arrest. The Commanding Officer refused to even see crazy horse and crazy horse is led to hes going to be arrest is led to the guardhouse at Fort Robinson. You go to Fort Robinson, the highly recommended that guardhouse has reconstructed. As soon as he gets inside. And he also his followers, they say this is a jail. They see the bars and so crazy horse starts to resist mean its like you know im not going to be in prison and hes struggling eventually its a huge melee one of the officers the guard says something to the effect of kill the son of a guard there takes a bayonet sends it right through crazy horse his body his mortally wounded, and he dies a slow agonizing death in september 1877. Therefore, robinson its it was awful. I mean, you know, they lied to him. You know, one of the countless lies that he was told and and then hes murdered there as far as sitting bull doesnt get any happier, by the way, sitting bull is the Standing Rock reservation. The agent, james mclaughlin, hates him. He hates the influence that he has. I love this one quote. Its in the book. There was a a missionary there. And he had a diary and he wrote in his diary, he said to james mclaughlin, and has the cunning of satan, if anybody would know about satan, itd be the priest inside. So he knew about what james would learn. But james like love, was also jealous again. There was that power and sitting bull, you know, he just didnt go along with everything agent wanted to do. And so, um, you know, james go off and later wrote a book and. Its his reminiscences and its called, i hate this. Its called my the indian, my friend the indian and. I have an account from an interpreter. He said, you know, mclaughlin would have written a better book, had written one and called it my enemy. Um, but anyway yeah, youre a friend as long as you did everything the agent wanted to say, you wanted to do. Youre a good friend. But if you looked at all. Well, no, youre not a friend of mclaughlin. So at the same time, you know, mclaughlin feels like hes having with sitting bull sending bulls off with his people on the grand river as part of the reservation. And then we the Ghost Dance Movement. So may have heard of the Ghost Dance Movement this idea. Behind the ghost dance was that all the white people would be going away, they would be pushed away and all your relatives who had died would be come back to life. But in order for this to happen, you had dance and you had to dances the certain way. By the way the ghost dance leaders or priests taught you to dance. You had to wear a ghost shirt. It would be made a certain way and as long as you dances if you kept dancing this prophecy c would you know and the lakota were starving. I mean they getting the rations they needed and you know, that life, that they had left behind. I mean, its still within that generation. And heres an opportune to go back to those days theres plenty of buffalo the white people are here bothering us. All we have to do is dance and sitting bull he wasnt convinced of this vision, but he helped his people prepare them to do the dance. He didnt actually participate himself and of the things i think is important about the ghost dances, that it wasnt violent is one of the ghost dance leaders said who would have thought there had been all this trouble over dancing thats all they were doing. But when they start dancing, then heres the rumors and white settlers thats saying theyre going to break out. You know, one of the lakota leaders said, why is it whenever hungry, theyre always afraid were going to fight or break out . You mean theres all this paranoia with the whites . I had examples of telegrams to the agent at Standing Rock. My daughter is a teacher. Should i have her come home . You know . Another telegram said, should we organize . The state national guard. Nothing had happened. Just dancing. James mclaughlin of course, the way he looked it and the way the individual looked at it, they look at it as paganism. They were trying to get rid of that stuff, you know, get rid of these old, foolish ways, you know, i will be closing in 30 minutes. Please. And i quickly realized that my friend and i got to kill the whole mood there is a whole story anyway, ill try to finish this up here in the next minutes. But so james mclaughlin, he wanted to put a stop to it because, again, it wasnt it wasnt what they were trying to teach. They wanted to make them like other whites. They were trying to, quote, civilize. So dance the ghost dance was not part of civilizing that not part of his charge. He went to visit sitting bull told him that he needed to stop this foolishness, but sitting bull was very reasonable. He says, you know what . Why dont you and i both go and visit well go with ocher. This paiute who had this vision that started the whole movement lets go see if theres any truth this and then we can decide. Now we dont have the money to do a trip like that. Yeah, you need to stop. And then James Mcglothlin later, he got a message that sitting bull had had been invited to the Pine Ridge Reservation where this spiritual leader was supposed to appear, or this deity of the ghost. And he that sitting bull was going to go. And so he sent his Indian Police to arrest sitting bull you. You cant do this. Were going to you know, you go out there. Well, of course, again, it was a completely, you know, a melee you know, they were supposed sneak in in the middle of the night and grab sitting bull and take him to fort yates and imprison. But they got there late. It was already becoming daylight. Sitting bull followers see the commotion and whole crowd forms and are yelling and you saying you cant sitting bull and one and sitting bull were starting to go know hes starting to go with them. And then of his wives says, what are you doing arent you single . Are you going to let him take you and then he stops and then melee starts and sitting bull is shot, killed, and some of his followers are killed. And its a horrible, brutal thing. The bodies are taken back to 48 and sitting bull body is taken to whats called the death house. I guess when a soldier dies, they take him to the the dead house. And while hes there, they take things. His body, they take his hair log, they take his leggings and and, you know, its stolen property. You know, i guess ill end with this because it was something that that probably moved me excuse me moved me the most in this research. I was at the little south Dakota Historical and i try to myself ahead of time. I go look at the, you know, online inventory, the catalog and what collections i want to see. A lot of times theres a really helpful archivist and theyll say, oh, you might want to take a look at this collection. This in recently. And so they had a collection. I wasnt aware of it. It was some papers that came from the assistant post surgeon at fort yates. It is im through it. There are two cabinet car photographs in this collection and ones a picture of captain jack crawford. It was kind of a buffalo bill. One of the things and the other was of a small white child. But all around it, there were bloodstains and these had been taken sitting bull body and. Here i was in Library Holding these things that had symbols blood and. You know, as a historian, you kind of live for those moments. You are just not a figure in history. There are real person. And at that moment, cinema was so real and tragic and so those images are in the book also. But it one of the most, you know, profound, startling and and poignant things to happen. While i was and there were others. But it took me to that day december 15th, 1890. Thank so much. I really appreciate it. And describe well, joe Robert Oppenheimer was the father of the atomic. He directed the civilian at los alamos during world war during the manhattan project. And under his leadership, he directed