Transcripts For CSPAN3 Linda Villarosa Under The Skin - The Hidden Toll Of Racism On American... 20221016

Of new orleans folks in the house. This is kind of old home week because Linda Villarosa been a friend to us for at this point. We have celebrate lindas work across many genres and we are really, really, really honored to get to celebrate this book. Tonights event is cosponsor by the feminist Womens Health center and just in a moment, i will introduce m. K. Anderson, who is the director of Development Communications at the feminist Womens Health center. To tell you a little bit about their work, first, i want to introduce van newkirk. Were having a little bit of tech issues with vans internet, so were going to keep working on that. But when our newkirk the second is a Senior Editor at the atlantic and the host and of the Peabody Award Winning flood lyons, a narrative podcast about Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath. For years, newkirk has covered voting rights, democracy and justice with a focus on how race and class shape the in the worlds fundamental structures. Then is a 2022 Andrew Carnegie fellow and was a 2020 James Beard Award finalist, a 2020 11th our fellow at new america and a 2018 recipient of the America Society of magazine editors as emmy next award. So were going to welcome ben back up here in just a moment. But first, i am going to welcome linda. Linda is a journalism professor at the City University of, new york and a contributing writer at the new times magazine, where she covers the intersection of race health. She has also served as executive editor at and as a science editor at, the New York Times. Her article on, maternal and infant mortality, was a finalist for the National Magazine award. And she is a contributor to the 1619 project. So welcome to. And we are really, really, really glad to have you here. I want to bring van back. And while we were doing that, im going to turn it over to empty, anderson, as i said, marc is the director of development and communications at the feminist Womens Health center, the feminist Womens Health center is a Reproductive Health and justice organization. They provide direct services, including care, and they provide education, advocacy and leadership development, opportunity. They also build movements, people across all axes of oppression so that we have the right resources, respect to make empowered, informed decisions about our own bodies and health. You can learn more about their work at feminist center, dawg, and ill that in the chat. I want to welcome in Kate Anderson to just tell us a little bit about feminist center whats going on there right now and then thank you so much for cohosting this event tonight. Thank you. Yeah, were happy to here. Of course. Charisse is an incredible resource in the community. And this book, i think, really highlights a lot of the issues of the summer and tries to confront in providing care people. But as e. R. Says feminist Womens Health center, a Reproductive Health care provider. We also do education, outreach and advocacy. So have a lot of opportunities for, folks, to get involved, especially now whats happening. The big Abortion Case kind of looming so for our Clinical Services we provide abortion care up to up to the legal limit which is 20 weeks in georgia right now. We also provide a lot of services. So your annual your Birth Control options and we also have a trans health initiative. Well, that provides hormone replacement therapy and trans affirming wellness care. So on the educational tip, we do a lot of outreach sex ed, especially bipoc communities. So we have a letting latina voices Initiative Live in time as opposed to latinas, which trans Health Promoters and Latino Community to reach out and kind of talk about, you know, topics that are often taboo. The Latino Community, especially with sex. We also have a black womens wellness project. Of course, which is led by a black organizer here, just introduces excuse, educates the community on wellness issues in that community as well. And we have our advocacy program. So we have a full time lobbyist fighting at the State Capitol to prevent even bands from coming through, trying to restrict Abortion Access and also just restrict our freedoms. Because the folks who are trying push these abortion bans are also the folks who are trying to criminalize being trans in school and trying criminalize poverty. So were down at the capitol, every day of legislative trying to, you know, make sure that our voices are heard. So if youre interested in those services and you want to learn more, im going to drop the link to register for our newsletter. Were going to have a newsletter coming next week with all of our events and so if youre really interested in this issue and you want to get involved with the center, sign up for our newsletter and. You can find out more information there. Thanks. Thank, m. K. Its really wonderful to have all and so grateful for all the work that feminist does and course. So while were working on getting band back up the, why dont you begin by just telling us a little bit about how this book was born . Well, first of all, thank you. I am so. I wish we were in person, but im so honored to be there with everyone. Atlanta is really important to harris. Books is really important to me. It was one of the first bookstores i ever an event at when i had and soul, my first book and. I wrote the book in atlanta much of it working with what was then the National Black Womens Health project at the little house. Now sister song and sister love other rj organization are located. Well, i started the book in. I got the book deal. Doubleday in 2018. But i was so resistant to writing book at all and my editor, i write my magazine pieces really, really long and my editor would always cut things. And then i would push back a little bit and shed say, save it for the book. And i said, well, theres no book. Im not writing a book. And shed say, well, you should write a book because you have so much stuff you were writing, you cutting so much, you should write a book. The my piece on maternal and infant mortality out in the New York Times magazine in 2018. And i, my friend Andrea Bernstein came over and she said, you need to a book. I said, im not writing a book. I dont even have an agent. She said, im going to introduce you my agent. I said, i dont want to. She said, i already did. So i had the meeting with the agent. I said, i dont want to write a book. She said, youre here, literary agency. Youre going to write a book, and thats really was very reluctant. But then also realized that it was important to me to kind of synthesize the ideas that i had been about, especially at the New York Times magazine, but also before that in essence, and to really give people were st were hungry for the information and to have it all in one place. So thats kind of how it got started. I then good day. Yay. Glad you got it. This is. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, my internet is conspiring against me, but i am happy to be here and to celebrate your book. Thank you. Im so happy. Be in conversation with you. So much. First question just got taken. I have another question for you and that is you have this career youve been writing about these issues and, health care and the environment and just how the live conditions, black folks, black of people who are on the margins and but this book is not just about information that you compiled. Its about how your perspective changed. Can you tell us about how it changed and why i i am from this family, you know, strivers and believing in uplift and. My grandparents came from mississippi chicago during the great migration and then my parents i dont want to be in chicago anymore. I want to take my my sister the girls to the suburbs where they can we can have better life. And i know that we can this and we can work hard. We can get our education. And we were that kind of family and that was i was raised its like each one teach one lift as you climb and, you know, sort of i guess bootstrap kind of black bootstrap was booker t washingtonian and then i got to essence magazine in the late eighties. I fit right in because thats how that was the thinking there. It was a little bit more political than that, but it really was about we have this audience of black women. We a very deep reach of black in the United States and we have a chance to really change the you know, just make the race better uplifts, uplift the race. And for me, it was about help. I knew about Racial Health disparities. Its not a secret. Its, you know, racial help disparities have been have existed since weve been on these shores in you know, in america. And i thought if people know better, theyll do better. But it took me a minute to realize people even when people do better and do everything and do their best, then there still is this Health Disparities, Poor Health Outcomes still exist. And it happened in my family strivers. And it happened in some ways to me with my own birth and see it in my friends. And i really see it now that ive sort of opened the lid on it and started talking about it. Now i hear every kind of story and this lived experience, storytelling is, you know, really important to couple with the kind of Evidence Based Research reporting that i also do. And love going back to my own days in Public Health, always struggle with term Health Disparities because i feel like it kind, just sanitized the or packages what a stunning difference ways of life and material conditions for people youre talking about on both ends both in a birth and in early death. A significant difference in how people live and die. Can you tell us more about. What is actually one of the things that are going this thing we call health and these gaps that kind of get sanitized at like who are really you asked that because i just kind of push over that go right through it and i thank you for allowing me to slow down a little bit and to think that. And i think the big idea of book is that america has arguably the best health care in the world, definitely the most expensive. And we spend so much money on health care more than every other country. We also have, you know, our good we have good Clinical Health care have good innovations. We have technology, yet we have Poor Health Outcomes, relation to other wealthy countries in the world. And it starts at infant mortality and Maternal Mortality and. Then it ends with Life Expectancy y, but its always treated as a mystery whats going on in the United States where, you know, when you look at the inequality of our health care and then you drill down into race, it starts at birth. A race, Racial Health disparities and ends with death. Looking at Life Expectancy. So a black you know, black are, you know, where one i think its up about nearly twice as have the white almost two times the level of infant mortality where they you know, black women are 3 to 4 times more likely to pass during pregnancy and and then, you know were also have a lot of nearmisses and then the end of life Life Expectancy different for black people and it used be when i first started writing this book, the life gap was 3. 5 years. So black folks, 3. 5 years less. But after by the time i was finishing the book, it had stretched to six years. And then i think the stat around Life Expectancy that hit me was looking at my mothers from so my mothers the inglewood section of chicago people live to 60 and then nine miles north in streeterville people live to age 90 and its the largest. And inglewood is a black community. Thats where it was used to be, a Promised Land for coming up south and then. So why would there be a you know, why would people only be living to age 60 and why would there be a 30 year gap, you know, with only a nine mile distance and you know, a black Community Versus a White Community . And youre sort of like, you know, wow, i have to say, wow. So you talk about three theories in the book well forth but three that you dont quite agree with that purport explain these differences is you know black people are somehow or genetically different or even inferior and they are succumb to illness more easily. The other is black people are just more poor, right . Theyre just more likely to be poor and they dont have access to the same Resources Health care, etc. And the other is they black somehow are behaviorally deficient or uneducated. Tell me about the fourth option. The option is really that something is wrong with our communities. I think thats my is that my fourth option is that something is wrong with our communities and thats what i was thinking about chicago so and i remember, you know, not going to say the name of the former president , but that person was looking at and, you know, calling it out and saying so terrible, its such a crime ridden look at how how how can people live like this when my mother and i went back there, we were shocked by condition of her community. We went back to early 2020, just before the pandemic, but then looking into it, its like, oh, this is a community that was redlined. So people werent know black people in the black community werent to buy homes your home is your biggest wealth asset and you know thats how people pass along generational wealth is through a home and so you werent allowed to own a home and then. It was funny because i was doing these and i was all over redlining and i finished an interview with dr. Gayle, who is going to be the next president of spelman there in atlanta. And she had her assistant call me back and she said, tell linda not to forget about contract buying and i was like, oh, whats contract buying . I did i hadnt heard of that. And so she gave me a link. I read about it. It was the, the, you know, the, the, the rule that black folks couldnt buy a home except on a contract so that meant we had no equity and then if you didnt if missed a payment on your home because you didnt have a mortgage or you didnt have that kind of equity that other people had, then you could lose your home. And then i asked my mother, i said, how did grandfather, you know, on that building he bought in the forties . She said, i dont know. He bought it on some kind of contract. He was always terrified that he would lose it and i thought, oh my god. Then my mother went school with lorraine hansberry. Lorraine hansberrys father sued. You know, he was a lawyer and he sued around this whole buying thing. And i thought, god, you know, here are these people who come to this place trying to have better life. And then this happens and these are clearly, you know, talented, wonderful, sparkling group of people, including my mom and lorraine hansberry. And why did this is what to this community. Its not fair. Talked about this before about the nexus of issues environment and of health and from my perspective you know you know everything but i want to know if theres anything you encountered while reporting and researching for this book that surprised you i think it wasnt really a surprise but it had it i to force myself to have a little bit more of you im im always very you know my sort of back story in my what im doing on the down low in my reporting is to this is not just poverty that im very quick to say that this is not just poverty middle class black people also have a hard time america and it affects our health. I think that what i needed to get a a better understanding was is the socalled social determinants of to say and get a you know sort of think more about health and wealth the intersection and when was writing the story about my mothers neighborhood in chicago, i interviewed a friend of mine, dr. Eric whitaker, who was in grad school with me and a physician. Hes president obamas really good friend. And i was interviewing him. And i remember he started this clinic in my moms for mostly for black men. It was a black mans clinic. And i remember he stopped doing it and i said, what happened . And he said, and it because it seemed like a success story, they were getting men into this clinic and and he said it does its something is going on in this community that having a clinic doesnt help its not enough. And he started talking about you know, talking to people in chicago about investing and sort of wealth building in chicago rather than being so focused on just Getting Health Care to people because wasnt enough and because know if the whole Community Around is crumbling, then having one Little Health care center isnt going to, you know, really do enough. And i remember thinking thats a shift for me. Its shift for me to think about this and to think more intentionally about the combination. You know the intersection of health and wealth. Now i want to make sure that to everybody to pop in a question you have in the chat. So we can answer some of them a little bit later. The next question, you talked about and i think you write quite beautifully about what this pandemic exposes or even, you know, i think reiterates from your writing were you at all surprised again about how disparate the impact, the racial impact of covid 19, what then people like were not surprised by that. And so weve been looking at, i should say, is not that the impact not was is we are still in a pandemic. Yes. Yeah yeah. I think when it was first happening and we, you know, people who had studied the kind of Health Inequality and Racial Health disparities and also hiv aids, you know, that was really how i started getting into Public Health and i was on in early 2020, you know, right around shutdown, you know, right when the pandemic happening, i was on calls and Facebook Live and, you know, people were like, what, zoom . And we were doing these calls and we were it was black folks who had been involved with hiv aids and everyone was this is going to strike black people hard and that there was this conversation and was there werent statistics yet. There were local statistics. There were some louisiana. There were in some in you know, in different states, some in new york. But there was Nothing National and. So locally you could see Racial Health with covid outcomes, but there wasnt any no national data, but so on little, you know, these panicky kind of angry discussions of mostly black people and other people of color who were involved in hiv aids were saying, this is going blow up. And then i remember the second part of the conversation was, should we push the idea or is it going to backfire . And theyre going to blame us for this. Theyre going to blame us when it happens more to us. And so there was all this conversation. And then the one that hit me was, i dont know if they knew was there or maybe i was going in and out. And somebody said the Mainstream Media is never going to cover this. They dont care about. And i started thinking, oh dear, im kind of the Mainstream Media. I work at New York Times magazine, so i told my editor, jessica lustig, the magazine, i said, you know, this is going on. I think you should get someone to write about the Racial Health disparities that going to happen when covid happens. Theres going to be its going to be impact black people and other people of color worse and i gave a list of people to write. I was like, im a book, so i cannot do i have no time. So then shes well, you should maybe think about doing im like, no, i really i cannot get pulled into one of those long stories. She said, why dont you just do a little pitch and explain your, you know, what youre thinking . So i do the little pitch with other names attached. Okay. And then your name was attached. And so then im like shes like, oh, can you just tell me where you think it would if you were going to do it, where would it be based . So i called around to my friends and i call people in atlanta. I call people in birmingham, in new york, and new orleans. And it turned out new orleans really was the place to write about this. So by the end i ended up being the one to write about this and partially because i i had so many contacts, i already had the people in place to talk to and i already had the basic theories, one, because im writing a book, was writing a book about Racial Health disparities, but also because i had that experience with hiv, aids. Yeah, you call this a of epiphany in, the book and new orleans. I remember its hard to fathom just how much history is lost when this happens too when you lose elders early. Ronald ronald lewis was the curator of the house dance and feathers in new orleans. He was one of the first people to pass away from it in the city. And thats black, right . Its not just were not talking about individual lives. Were talking about pillars of community. And thats when i you know, how i covered it through the lens of the Zulu Social Club and, you know, that is such a pillar of the community. And to watch the, you know, the people, it was on, you know, i was looking on their Facebook Page and it be like another brother got his wings and thered be that emoji and the angel and that and sometimes the praying hands pray for the brother. And that is what me to really say. Wait, this is these are the folks i really want to look at whats happening to them because its so sad. These are guys were you know they were trying to do something good for the community and have mardi gras and you the parade and the and the events and they got covid and so i wanted to cover and also you know what we saw in covid eventually was that it struck black people younger so we got worse outcomes younger. And the man mr. Charles, who i wrote about was only 50 when he passed away. And i was so surprised, you know, because he was so young. But then surprised at. I have a couple more questions for and i just want to make sure we what we get to the audience q a so make sure you get your questions in the chat theres one concept in here that i think is obviously lots of concepts. I things are really interesting, but this one jumped out at me is this idea how you explain this persistent these persistent disparities even among people who who have access to Health Resources use this concept of whether can you tell me more about so whether ing is a concept that was thought up by dr. Arlene geronimo, who is at the university of michigan, and shes been thinking about this since she was basically an undergrad. And shes now you know what, tell her age, but shes probably like 70 and shes been thinking about this and researching it and looking at it and arguing it. So its the idea that and its what shes looked very closely at. Black mostly around infant mortality and its the idea that something about the lived experience of being black in america especially a black woman causes a kind of premature aging and her thinking is every time something happens to you in the form of discrimination bias racism you body kicks into a kind of the kind of fight or flight syndrome. So your heart starts racing, your blood goes up, your cortisol levels. And this makes sense because fight or flight is important, its its about survival. But if it happens and over and over again, youre trying so hard just to survive. It creates what she calls weathering. And that is a premature aging that played out in covid because you saw people getting black, getting covid at younger ages than white folks and. But weathering is a dual. So it both means way you know, the lived experience of being black in america affects our bodies way a storm. You know, the weather hurts a house so a storm is house is weathered a storm the shingles get off the paint chips windows break. But then we also the storm and that means we have we take care of each other we take care of ourselves through kinship, through community, through love. And i really like that concept. And i think its its i its brilliant that she gave it that poetic name, but it really is a very, you know, evidence based, data driven concept that she was she was attacked for early in her career because she was saying its its not. 20 teenagers who get pregnant, who driving up rates of infant mortality, preterm birth and low birth weight. Its slightly older women who black women who been, you know, have had to endure the kind of discrimination that happens in america. And so then people started saying around, you know, in the nineties that she was sort of supporting teen and that she was not, you know, being a good advocate. And she was attacked. She had two people called her, you know, threatened her job. And now because weve proven, you know, shes really proven hard to prove this theory. And also, you know, its clear that its coming, you know, during covid and also Maternal Mortality rates, that this makes sense shes doing. I saw her recently, you know, year ago or something and shes doing well, she has a book deal. Shes writing a book about concept. Im really proud of her for sticking with it. What if you all have it read. Obviously, you should read the book, but theres an amazing excerpt and i think pulled from reporting from the book on the Health Systems that you have in the New York Times magazine. Its such a touching story. I would just want to know what it was to. Go and talk to them about their story and for you, as somebody who has seen so, you know, who knows all the sides of and has seen a lot of it, how does it affect you to really most authorities into your brain and your being in writing the rough sisters just melt my heart. I, i so they in they were the real family came to montgomery, alabama from ironically macon county where happened they the family came there in like the late sixties like early seventies late sixties. And the father was disabled neither of the parents could read there were six children read or write and so they were living in montgomery in like an a field, sort of like squatting and a social worker. Ms. Blye was assigned to their and said, we cant have folks living like this and remember the society had just programs and happen. So there were all kinds of for People Housing money health care and school so the children hadnt been in school. So the six kids and the parents moved to public housing. They got ms. Bligh got the children school. One of them was mary alice was disabled. So she went to a school for the disabled and but they also got on the radar of the Public Health service and at the time because all black folks, it was the tail end of great migration, those were, the ones that didnt quite make it to chicago or didnt make it to the north, they came. They flooded into cities in the south. And so at same time, the centers, the thing that happened was the government was saying, oh, this is getting too expensive, us, we need to control the population. So it started the ralph girls theyre only 12 they were 1214 and 17 it started depoprovera which was not you know, it was still in Clinical Trials and. So they were given that and then the the the Public Health Service Workers went to the mother and said, oh, we want to what she understood was give your girls immunization. She signed an x on the paperwork. But what it was was to get them sterilized because the Public Health workers were worried that they said it to ms. Bligh that were hanging around. But the girls. The youngest ones were 12 and 14. So a nurse came or a Public Health worker came and picked up the two younger girls and sterile eyes. Then they went back for the older one, but she locked herself in her bedroom. She went and told ms. Bligh what happened and ms. Bligh went to the hospital this is 1973 and said oh my god, the girls are here in their gowns, theyre crying, theyre screaming. We heard help us. And she had the wherewithal to get to the southern poverty law center, montgomery, which was julian bond, the president of it. But it was pretty they took the case, got it all. They took the ralphs to washington to testify that the girls and the parents, they were testified in front of the senate. They won the lawsuit they got. But it also uncovered that 100000 to 150000 other women poor and black women, had also been sterilized what what happened to the relatives. They kind of fell off the radar you see their stories about them you see you know in museums online theres their old pictures from 1973 or up theres a picture from ebony that i cut out and put in my wallet because i became obsessed with finding them. I had was in montgomery trying everything i could to find them. I had a researcher on the ground who was a who was a lawyer and. So im like, we have to find them. I know were going to find them. Were asking no one knows how to find them. So the researcher woman, her side hustle was teaching parenting classes. So said, will you please come to my parenting . I was like no, i have nothing to say to parenting class kids are grown. I dont have a please just please wheres my mom and i are doing this we just need some fresh blood. So finally, after three nos, i went to the parenting class. Im talking and i see the tag of one of the people is ralph debbie ralph. After all this time, im looking for them obsessed little piece of paper in my wallet. So i say, are you any relation to mary alice . Katie . And then they would be in their sixties. She goes, oh yeah, theyre my aunts. You want their number . Oh wow. I was so overwhelmed. I didnt see them that time, but i had her call and tell them about me. So the next time when i went there, i met them. It so i was im sure they thought i was so deranged because i was so happy and i was so enthusiastic and. They are, you know, im going to see them next week. Im going to montgomery. I think of them, my friends, we talk on the phone. They tell me about the weather there its they wear brooklyn t that i brought them and just feel like its theres such an injustice that happened to them but theyre so kind and humble and forgiving i just would love to see some kind of justice for them at least an apology if not a kind of reparation, some kind of reparations. Hmm. Now, i do want to make sure we have time for the audience questions that we have. Yeah. And i think its good way to follow up from please me more folks. We have one here and i want to make i think its a good way to sort of follow up on what you just said. Have there any initiative to address and eliminate these disparities, especially in the realm you said looking for some sort of reparation or some sort of acknowledgment for, you know, i think very heinous programs, tuskegee like this master realization program. But also i think the mundane Health Disparities. Well, one thing is for just ill just isolate the sterilization in three states offer a form of reparations. North carolina, where vann went to college, i was just well, im from. Thats where youre from. Youre right. Yeah. North carolina did the right thing. And reparations. A form of reparations payments to people who were forcibly sterilized. Sterilized their consent. Their program ended, virginia gays, money to people who came forward and were sterilized in state sanctioned programs and calif formula is still that that is still going on but that you know theyre paying people but that is those are the only three states theres been Nothing National or nothing else i wanted mention just sort of lift up the sense of the kind of sensitivity training or antiracism anti bias training thats happening in california. So a california did the right thing beginning. I think it was a 2026 realized that the levels of Maternal Mortality were just as high in california as they were in the country and that black women were 3 to 4 times more likely to be by this problem and really put it did pulled out all the stops and said, you know what were going to do we can to fix this problem. We thats not right. That birthing are dying because of pregnancy and you know in during the birthing so put protocols in place so that you had a hemorrhage or emergency csection. Everybody that was at the hospital knew what to do and all the tools were in place, studied it really well. And during that time period, the number of birthing who died dropped 55 . But the the Racial Health disparity, black women were still 3 to 4 times more likely to pass away. So what they did was realize, oh, we cant doctor ourselves out of this. So they they mandated antiracism antibody training for anyone who works with birthing people, whether during pregnancy or during childbirth or the time after. And the state has now also done that made that kind of training mandatory in continuing education for anyone who whos practicing. So i think thats a good step. I dont think thats only step. Its not perfect. But i think that happening for medical with medical students and nursing students and, midwifery students is really good that they seem they were many of them were politicized as they were in high school and college during, you know. And they hit up against black lives matter. They saw what was happening in this country. Now theyre having their medical training. Theyre studying to be doctors, nurses, midwives, public Public Health policy or, you know, whatever theyre doing but theyre more political than the last generation. And theyre pushing back against the kind of stale training was is sort of, you know, using of race as a marker, which isnt really effective. And theyre also saying, i dont want to be a Health Care Provider the way some of the others in the past have. And im really excited by that work among students. I also think we need to support and lift them up because its hard going to medical school and also trying to train yourself in kind of Racial Health disparities in Health Equality while. Youre in medical school, which is really hard and in many cases youre trying to train other students so that i think they need more support from their colleges and universities this i do want to say one more question we have in the box to follow up on that. How has the medical establishment i think beyond the the young folks who kind of get it . How is the medical establishment to findings like yours to the Research Made up the bed of knowledge here to the changing paradigm. Well its a mixed bag. I have been really excited by, you know, whats happened in the past year or two. There are many colleges and universities that now a Health Equity center. And many of my friends who doing other things are now running them. So i really like that the ama made an apology to black doctors. They were treated in the past. The ama has a Health Equity officer whos a wonderful, really smart woman. There are the cdc and, other agencies and places like have now in the past with the words racism as a Public Health threat werent a thing that nobody was saying that. But now its kind of common to say that however, people are pushing back against that. Certainly i think it was the chief medical officer in the state of virginia like a couple of days ago said thats not thing, stop saying that. And so there is pushback i certainly get pushback from physicians and i think that they mistake so us talking these issues with us calling them racist. And after i was on fresh air i got a note a gentleman whose son is was a medical student in virginia and he the took part in that study in 2016 with students interns and residents that that found that Something Like 40 of them believed one myth about the black body including that black people have higher pain tolerance or have thicker. And so he said well was really unfair it really hurt my sons feelings it was really wrong to say that he really felt used by that study and now hes a doctor so you should just stop using that study and. Youre just trying youre just a piece of. Okay. Anyway, so i read that three days ago. I thought about it and i thought, oh, you know, should i go and look at it . Then im thinking. No, you know what that he is a doctor now. Hes forever changed because got called out in this. And so no. And im sorry if his feelings were hurt. Too bad. And but i thought about that because i thought, huh that is important and. Its important to sort of like i guess listen to say you hurt my feelings but then move on to say well your feelings this can make a huge difference if we acknowledge this stuff your individual feelings we have to beyond that we have one question and asking do you think telehealth could widen or narrow the disparity and gaps . And i want to expand that because i want to know if youve come across any innovations or new implementations of Health Care Practice that seem to be going, i guess the great i think well telehealth has been certainly so important during the pandemic and i think telehealth really important for rural areas. You know, youve seen it, weve so many medical clinics and hospitals in rural areas, particularly in the south. So i think that, you know, theres no choice but rely on that kind of technology. And so, you know, i welcome that and i dont think thats the only answer. I think many of the things were doing are kind of limp along plans that. Were just trying to piece this together. We get a new kind Health Care System and. I think the other thing that mentioned in my book and i really really believe in and you know, i saw yalls conversation before we started and i could see that there were there birth workers, their midwives, their doulas, you know, here. And i really thank you for your work and what happens i think in america is we realize much on machines and on technology and which im glad we have that in our country. But often we need to make a connection to people, especially black people who been harmed by our Health Care System. So i think its important that you we can look at lower tech People Solutions and we dont have to always look toward technology. And i was having this conversation with someone during this, you know, book extravaganza recently who said, oh, i said i was talking about community workers. And i said, Dallas Community workers, patient navigators and. Somebody said, oh, youre trying to spend more money. Thats really expensive. Said, no, its not. Its terrible that theyre paid that well. This is a really good way and its certainly cheaper even if you paid the folks better and, paid them what they deserve, its still less expensive than people getting ill and having to be treated in hospitals and in hospital settings. If you keep people out the system by keeping them more healthy and having a kinder, loving connection to the system, it just works better. Now i have one more for you and then i will let you go. Ill stop bothering you and you can usually bother me any time. Oh, good, good, good. So i want you to sign my book at some point, but i do think it would do for us to really delve into you. We did have a lot of birth workers who were on me who are involved and we know that society is built to try and, you know, around making the act of giving birth safer, around protecting people around protecting children. And what does it say about america, about this country, about structures. If this event, which is so pivotal is still so dangerous for, black america, i think theres this you know, i have the button and the t shirt that says, listen, black women and and i would say, listen to black people. And i would say to people, i think listen to birthing people and because its interesting, sometimes i have sort of the most means dream kind of people pushing back against some of these ideas. I realize theyre not really listening big everywhere i go, people telling me stories of what happened to them. I get, oh, is are people vaccine hesitant or afraid . Black people afraid to go into the Health Care System because of tuskegee . I was like, no, theyre afraid from what happened to them in the system yesterday. I was thinking about this because for book i got to good. I mean reviews one was in the New York Times book review itll be on the cover on sunday. Oh, well, congratulations. Thank you. And the other is in the washington post. And both of these reviews shared a near tragic birth story. One was a tragic birth story. One was a miscarriage. And the family was treat the. Parents were treated. So badly, they called the the you know, the lost pregnancy a demise, which is, you know, okay, thats not kind. And then they sent the people home to basically to have the woman bleed out and they said, no, youll be fine. They didnt care for her. And in the middle of a book review, this person is sharing this really terrible, sad story. Then the New York Times book review. It was a woman who talked about her. She she had read 2018 maternal and infant mortality. And she said, i was afraid. I everything right. I had a do what i was right. And then her story was tragic. She wasnt listened to. She had way too much medical intervention. And i just thought, wow, no. I mean, in the middle of a book, a book review, i mean, they said the good things about book. But the centerpiece of these reviews were these two peoples really terrible, horrific stories. And i was just really struck by that. And other thing that i was struck by in the New York Times review. The woman was reading my book at the same time the, you know, roe versus wade decision was leaked. And what she said was all over social media, people were saying, oh, my god, its another handmaids tale. Were going to and she said, im for white women because for black women, we have been living through a handmaids tale. So weve been living through a situation where a j, marion, you know, does surgeries on black enslaved black women anesthesia cut to the ralph sisters in 1973. Theyre sterilized, then cut through today. And people sharing their stories. So think that hello im so excited. I lost my train of thought but i want to you know, i just want to lift up because were, you know, in atlanta where it carries i just want to say i am grateful to be informed by the black led reaper Justice Movement because it you know, i was allowed to understand in a really simple way and to you know to also it what it means what reproductive justice means in america. Its only three things. Its really easy. Its the right to have a child. Its the right not to have a child. And then the right, if you choose to have that, that you have the right to to raise that child a safe and healthy environment. And it kind of like i so informed by those simple three things and it helps to understand because you know, youre looking at these arguments and not everyone believes in each thing, you know, during the arguments. It makes no sense when youre listening to some of the counterarguments. But i just stick right in that those three things and it helps me understand and it helps me speak about it and it helps me kind of like not get i just stick my good space. Well, yeah. You think about what would change in our society if you only made three things the center of policy right and if you expanded them and just its not just for parents and birthing people and you know its about for everyone. If we just had the right to control our bodies and have terrible things happen to and to be able to be healthy and, safe, no matter who we are, where we its pretty simple. Now, i want to make sure to have everybody here get a chance and b see all the links so you can buy this book under skin and i want to invite your back. I can tell you the exact how to do that. Thank you so much, man. I really appreciate beautiful conversation. Linda, it is always a pleasure to get to to hear you think and to get to be with your work. Thank you for being such a friend to, charisse and to atlanta all these many years i want folks know you can just click this toll button the Bottom Center of your screen thats a one click right over to where you can buy under the skin directly from charisse. It really does help charisse when. You buy your event books directly from us, buy it for your book club, buy it for it. Its great if you are a birth worker. It is a great to do as a book club with your coworkers faith communities, sororities, fraternities, all the things. This is a great book to discuss among also consider donating it to your local library or. If you are able to purchase copy, request it from your public library, that really helps get word out about it. So those are all things you can do to help wanda and and help the worlds so that more people see this book and if you want to help care a circle are nonprofit you can always donate whatever you are able to support work of care circle. Thats how we do all of our programs. I know some folks have already donated. When you came in the room so thank you for that really does make a huge difference so then thank you so much for being here and posting this beautiful conversation. Linda, i hope that you stay safe and well on your book tour and then it is beautiful and enlightening and connective and all of those things that you bring to your work and to everyone. Well, thank you. And hope to see both of you soon and we can hug. Yes and yes. Thank you. Ive really, really enjoyed this conversation. I can tell because im like talking with my hands i love this. Thank you. Appreciate both of you and all of you out there. Thank you for coming on and listening. Oh, thank you. And everybody please buy a book by more than one. Right. Good afternoon. I am a senior fellow at the American Enterprise institute. We are honored today to be joined by senator tim scott from the great state of South Carolina for a conversation on his very important new book america a redemption story,