Transcripts For CSPAN3 Libraries During World War II 20151101

Foundation and of course the 2014 George Clooney film. I should add monuments women, togethers. Ing they are straight celebrated for the role they played in wartime. Absent from this story of individual heroism is any analysis and assessment of the way that culture and knowledge mattered in world war ii. Winning the war became a lion upon the accumulation of included and commitment for the protection of culture. How the objectives of the American Government, the military and cultural institutions intertwined. In practices and policies this endeavor shifted with the fortunes of war. They had long term effects. Effortsdiminishing the of any individuals involved, i aim to address these larger historical issues. In addition, my work shifts from is focus on art, which typically unique and rare in terms of Cultural Heritage to print culture. Of books and texts that serves many purposes. We will see and allied mission preserve monument to collections. Most was stolen from jewish institutions and individuals. Not exist indid isolation. Wartimeit was beholden missions. Including intelligence policies and a post americantion of intellectual readership. The american book men and most were men, librarians, the likecollectors and were involved in a set of actions that involved mass acquisitions. These were collecting megses that brought the world of text a new andof war into intimate relationship. An unusuali produced alliance between American Intellectual and government officials policymakers and the military. I wanted to start by saying, simply a product of wartime mobilization. Consequence of longer term trends beginning in the new deal. The administration defined a new interest in cultural matters. Booksf them related to and documents. Programs like the historical Record Survey and the aderal writers project and new institution such as the National Archives, which was founded in 1934. Addition, the library of congress became a sight of of a cultural and governmental fdrs unusual appointment of poet and 1939. Ight to librarian in he raised the stakes for librarians. Not only on them to be custodians of culture but to be defenders of freedom. Ill quote him here. Ours when warsas are made against the expert and keeping of these records is a warfare. Keepers whether they wish cannot be neutral. 1940. Americans awareness of the political of books and libraries had already been raised by nazi book burnings. When the u. S. Entered the war, the defensive books became a the freedom to speak, write and read. Underscored in book collection drive and the bookl remembrance of burning led by the opposite war information. You can see several of their posters there and council of books in wartime. Allianceg sign of this between academic and cultural leaders and the government maybe initiatives. One with a very long name. Hat im not going to give you commission. Which was charged with finding and salvage art and other historical treasures zones. The armies monument fine arts known asves unit is the monument men who were charged executing this policy. Important to note their mandate barely included books records. He said theres nothing in the field of bookses that beingponds to the work done in the field of art. By the end of the war, there ofe a small number testify in europe. Names sergeant child repeatedly griped about the dominance of art boys and the builders. Pg rated. S is policyure, the american towards Cultural Resources did librariesnumber of and historical buildings holding the collection. The monument in the field have emphasis of looting and destruction. Including the burning of books for heat. Manuscripts to wrap food. Wasnt a policy towards the preservation of Cultural Heritage that was most important the wartime handling of books, text and documents. At least not in the first instance. Rather it was the importance of when newtent in an era ideas about information were coming to the form. Essentially, in early information turn or information age. Impact on profound wartime thinking before the war, there was early Information Science known as documentation which ed adherence in research and academiaed library and and governance. They were interested in wider access to Library Material and uses the new technology. Its all very similar today technologyre new was microphone. Not so new. The information had a broader usage as well. It referred to communication, propaganda and intelligence. In this era, many social scientists and Public Opinion researchers have come together in a new loosely defined field of Mass Communications research. Much of it directed at the toential propaganda manipulate the Public Opinion liberal democracy. Period and ai and 1930se 1920s sale with the rise of radio. In 1939 the rockefeller seminaron ran a secret and protecting americans from propaganda. Iet 1941,n the summer of president roosevelt, many of you story, appointmented william to be coordinator of information. Really interesting title. I want to underscore it, coordinate of information. Manage american intelligence, foreign propaganda encounteric intelligence. C. O. I. Will be into two divisions. As librarian of congress was involved. He established information for analysis of foreign intelligence. Operationswined with as coordinator of information. Origins ofnough, the americas vast intelligence might be addressed to morning the summer of 1941. Pair,n this unlikely archibald and bill donovan. Cool porch of in excitement of great things to come. The United States then, an effort to acquire information initiated. Intelligence this sending five human beings into an Enemy Territory in the first instance. To deploy the scholarship of the day. Looking at foreign newspapers, periodicals and other kinds of published work. Source ay is called open sources. Usingcould be analyzed the tools of scholarship. With the International Book interrupted by war, means of acquisition had to be found a committee was o. S. F. Andugh the c. O. I. I will give you the long name i. D. C. Will hear call it i was formed in december of 1941 langer at william harvard. He hired a librarian name Frederick Kilgore who at the time was a 28yearold who the harvard library. Slow start ina failed acquire a single piece of information. They were beginning to get worried. Travelingd to scholars. They asked embassies to microphone newspapers. Liaison with the british information. Was aent eugene power who filmenergetic micro booster. He was recruited to set up an operation in london working with the ministry of information and association. Ibrary this association had received toms from rockefeller microfilm enemy periodical. Ramped up. Fort was worked out plan to receive materials from the British Foreign offices and other Government Agencies and the americans would microfilm them for the american and british intelligence. April 1942, much to everyones relief, the first 2000 feet of microfilm arrived in washington. Inthis time plans were set ofion to send a group librarian, micro photographers and epidemic to neutral cities the world. The most famous of these people fair banks. Who was the founder of studies here in the United States. Story connections to this and the route by which i got into this Massive Research relative ofhat, a mine was also ones of these to acquire. Ntelligence material this time unfortunately, i dont have many wasures because it intelligence. [laughter] ill tell you about the operation. Wasstockholm operation headed by the only book woman among the group. I dont have a single photograph of her except her college photo. K she received a ph. D. From the chicago in 1930. Like many women of her era, she was denied an academic career. Instead, she carried on her own employed byle senior faculty at the university of chicago. Abroad and she was isnt there to photograph theirripts for scholarships. Library, 1934, historians. Observe filming their Research Materials with miniature cameras. Trained herself to do the same. The war intervened and as it did, you can trace her through canceling trips through denmark. The state library when war was declared in an area that she was held. She made a trip before the marched into paris. Fled to lisben. Later, she waslf sent abroad again. This time to stockholm to enemy publications for the i. D. C. She was worked closely with intelligence but also developed her own initiatives. Sellers. To local book she approached sympathetic academics and Government Agencies and librarians. She developed her own covert set contacts. She knew people in the clandestine prest. She worked with the british to smuggle technical manuals from sweden. Into there are stories that she did ofewhat more robust forms secret intelligence as well. Which i could not confirm. Was undoubtedly the most successful agent in the americans worldwide effort to acquire foreign publication. Operation was in li highly developed economy. Antonio rship of newsstands, you can see there on the slide. Newspapers, from the daily express. Sensors and customer restrictions and difficulty of the politics of lisben. To importrs found way european publications and keep their shelves stocked. Educated portuguese and travelers haunted the bookstores and newsstands of the cities. Were a group of librarians. One who had been a librarian at harvard. They made the round to subscriptions,ce took buyin trips and appealed locals who were sympathetic to the allies. At thekstore there bottom of portugal, had the very sympathetic to the allies conduct some secret assignments for them including microfilm secret documents from the government. I. D. C. Was only able to ship 165 pounds of material by panamonth on the clipper. This was not much. Microfilm was essential in reducing the volume and bulk acquired. Their camera was often going day or night. Im going to put this on a blank of time. A little bit its very difficult to assess intelligence. His despite the i. D. Cs claim. Operational importance was very limited. Signalpare to intelligence or code breaking. All. Was no comparison at government officials in the war effort perceive this material to be highly value. They invested considerable resources in digging them out. Books shipped, microfilm reel shot. Seems to be a progress on the intelligence front that was murky. Retty printed text, also appeared to stable ande to be credible. Especially the well educated who spokenavor print over word. The head of american swem by reading d leads intelligence found leads by reading the daily press. New weaponry, industrial production. They were even advised to read the Society Columns because that inadvertently reveal the of regimen. Onehe end of 1942 over million pages of such materials indicate ly duplicated and distributed to agencies. Theres much more to this than simply reading microfilm. Reading microfilm will only get you so far. It will get you a headache a half an hour. Neededans of the o. S. F. To transform the familiar form books serials into a genre. In a way these librarians themselves. Initially Frederick Kilgore understood the job from the Library Point of view. Not too much from the point of view of the information in publication. Librarians were oriented and properly catalog and indexed by author title and subject. Responsibility for identifying the content of his publications rested with the reader. I. D. C. Initially thought there would be Government Agencies who would them we need this particular issue of a magazine. It. O find thats how they would proceed. Demands and of war the best number of microfilm inls that arrived washington, kilgore came to understand that information, not publications themselves was the i. D. C. s products. They needed to extract the useful information that contain them. And to make it identifiable to the officials with many different interests. Find way to guide required eventhey to information they didnt know needed. The wartime agency asking for keywords. They created a subject index of and periodicals that were tailors to those needs. This digest became a dilly with 300 copies directed to government distributed to Government Agencies. They can ask for an abstract and full text translation. About four percent of all the produced in the form of abstracts and the i. D. C. Translate 42y to languages including 16 of them quickly. Eraou can imagine in this before computers, theyre personnel role expanded exponentially. Efforts, they just grew hiring an army of indexers. S and many of them who had the skills and women. Ultimately this acquisition mission contributed to the informationof science and its uses for intelligence as an instrument of state. Rican the embrace of technologies of document reproduction, the sis transformation of physical text. This did not originate with the war. Many of the librarians associated with this effort went war pioneerspost of library information, management. Nd most notably Frederick Kilgore o. C. L. C. Infounded 1971. Largest online database. Cardsst printed catalog were printed last week. The end of an era. Mission ofing librarians, scholars and book men and women continued through war. It changed after dday in june of 1944. Acted as book buyers and orderings, subscriptions and etcetera. Teams thatcollecting were known as tforces, which the alliedhind armies as they advanced, operationalgets for or strategic information. They began to wear military uniforms and served specialist select recordso fly. On the this unlikely was for many of them. One of these collectors. I dont have a picture of them. Name was ross phinney. Music professor who volunteered to do work. Ition he learned slightly different acquiringdmethods of publications. He interrogated informant, he suspicious people. He found massive quantities of which heaterials confiscated. Needed an convoy of them. In 1944 heving day made his biggest discovery, a huge cash of patent abstract concerning rockets and jets. Time s these wartime collectors, began to direct the fate ofion to the european book world. Let me describe one other person here. No photograph. One of them unusual examples, is max lobe. A German Jewish journalist who and established himself as a book dealer in new york. He listed in the army and was the i. D. C. In london in 1944. That time, there was growing interest in the impact of allied and culturalademic institutions and concern about publish erman press and Publishing Industry could be rebuilt in the planning for the post war. Max lobe came up with the idea of interrogating german prisoners of war who had book trade. To the working on his own, he interviewed 200 p. O. W. s about the status and location of booed archives,s, publishers and book dealers in berlin and elsewhere. His investigations produced about industrial tacts, about the relocation of party use was nazi offices. It caught the interest of even theleaders and british war cabinet. Ins was a significant shift direction for the book man with of traditional work bibliography. Now defined in terms of target, forces in search of pu publications. All the records that would be prosecution of war thees and in managing reconstruction. Very quickly, however, the logic created an every woulding mandate what we call mission creek. Manner of seen all scientific of medical research, but began to sweep off other works. Certainly those with nazis these might be useful construction. Thisobe was dogged in regard. There were so many tempting tacts. And successfulod day, when he had seized a and technicalal and scientific books, he still felt uneasy because theres still so much undone. Eday, hister the team arrived in the center of publishing. Bombing vastated by the bombing. They went as much as they could street by street to find these things. They requisitioned a number of volumes. Aey removed books from chamber of commerce library. They were ordered to the integrity of University Library. When they found collections in of nazi ideology, for example, there was an institute for science, which was a University Library, they considered that it. Game and took as the investigators dug deeply, they found vast quantities of books and other publication surprising places. In the weak of the allied bomb campaign, german relocated and books and library collections. These are two examples of bomb site where is there had been books and newspapers. Y stored them in daves, safety. Ine for the allies prior knowledge of movement of libraries had only touched the surface. This salt mine were golden treasures and even opera costumes have been stored yield parts of the prussian state library. Entitles in disarray were 2 million volumes of books and journals and other records. With no cartel. Tragically, a fire burned for several months likely set by refugees trying to keep warm and the mind was in the process of gradual destruction from pms smoke damage dampness. This was only wanted of 25 places where that single library happens toward. Of 1945, over 800 mind castles country houses churches contained works of art and archives. The number continue to grow into 1946. The interesting discovery of s burdensits in saxony of mass collecting push by the americans. They were racing the clock with the area was going to be turned over to the soviet union. As one oss official road, the team working in the area came across collections of such size that it had no hope of either transporting reflections entirely or in making appropriate selections on the spot. So this compulsive logic of collection and its expanding regions go in opportunistic quality. This wartime history lay the groundwork for the treatment of works is cultural artifacts. Which books would begin created created and ships to america . Which would be rested treated which would be destroyed for the American Government and library of congress, these are compelling and complex questions. The library of congress established a mission in europe in late summer 1945 which continued to 1947. Its purpose was to acquire three copies of all books and other publications issued in germany occupied countries from 1939 this arrangement due upon the expertise and the collecting procedures of the wartime idc. A group obama and Research Librarians join the mission in january 19 be sick. 70yearold former head of the new york public library. Like the idc, their Mission Began as a book which is in operation. It was charged with finding a bunch of wartime imprints that it been left. Were books that were on Standing Order to American Research libraries and somehow the german publishers have inaged to guard them safekeeping but it not been delivered before the soviet takeover the city. There was a delicate negotiation that went on between the library of congress in the soviets authorities for their release. It was actually successful and people were surprised because the cold war was a ready beginning to be felt. However, what was initially and narrowly defined mission for the Library Congress involved into something else. Representatives operated under the authority of the u. S. Occupation government in germany. It proved mutually advantageous to permits librarians to go into such targets as Research Institutes and corporate libraries where they confiscated materials. They were also charged with screening and evaluating in the mask on visa publications that had already been seized. This became an industrial scale collecting program and it required a vast system of distribution as well known as the farmington plan. It allocated works by subject of class to specific university Research Libraries around the country. Most major Research Libraries had some of these books typically in storage where you will never find them. One dimension of this project involved the seizure of works hered to have not see militaristic content. This is just a sample book that the yelling University Library can deal you can see that will stamp. That three indicates it was seized by the library of congress. The joint chiefs of staff directive issued in april of 45 as well as the apostate ordered thed elimination of nazism and german militarism in all its forms. As the u. S. Army took german territories, military commanders and Civil Affairs officers shattered the libraries and bookstores. They demanded that all objectionable material be put under lock and key in a separate room area in may 1946 the allied control council issued a more expansive edict known as order number four which was to seize and destroy all literature and material of a nazi nature which included works that promoted fascism militarism bookish ideas racism and civil disorder. Directive when it was made public was highly controversial in the united date. Librarians in the press immediately proceeded to be a betrayal of democratic values. The wall street journal called it the burning americanstyle. To counter this negative publicity, and to allay public the American Military worked with the library of congress to come up with an acceptable solution. German Library Schools bookstores and publishers would alternate books that have these qualities to a centralized location. Private citizens were not required to the word courage to do so. The initial draft of this order was to include private citizens. These collecting centers were byed by americans germans but american librarians would oversee the screening. Of these books, 150 copies of each work deemed objectionable would be put aside for future research and is a record of naziism. I have to say i dont think they really didnt collect a hundred 50 copies or they had many of them disappeared. Way, the collection and selection work librarians became part of the machinery and destruction. It was not burning withholding. Countless publications for neenah paper stop. Wasexecution of this policy uneven with different interpretations of militaristic content. Also difficult judgments about the books themselves as the librarians had a term of art they used to describe many of the books. Junk. Popular novels, romances and the like. About 2 million volumes made their way to American University libraries. A windfall of publications through the cooperative vacuum acquisition plan. Only occasionally did american librarians have palms about this program. One was actually in my own University Pennsylvania where the library and returned a number of german books because they did not have stamps. These vast acquisition efforts contributed to the library of congress is will stature. In this sense, Research Libraries were connected. They reflected in further american aims to lead and dominate the postwar production and dissemination of knowledge. It is in this larger context of the acquisition confiscation destruction and redistribution that we should consider this remarkable effort by the u. S. Under the offices of the monuments finance in our head and rested tove book collections that have been looted by the nazis. These are gathered together in collecting points. Most, not all of it was seized from jewish institutions and individuals. In some cases the clear provenance led to the relatively rapid restitution. Restitution was to the country of origin as stipulated by alec policy. Not directly to individuals. However large numbers of works today, whose owners were identifiable stateless or dead raise the question what should be done . Despite strong commitments about this strong statements about the this was ammitments time of general demobilization and only a small number of american personnel assigned to this task. They oversaw a large group of germans who did the heavy work of organizing cataloging crating and shipping the box. Mane were two very creative who were directors of offenbach. Both of them were jews who had immigrated to the u. S. As children. He was an archivist who are to the National Archives before the war. Chemistry andd in served as an army captain during the war. Giftedre very administrators who successfully found ways to shelter repair and identify the orphan books of its profound political challenges and ethical dilemmas. Faced with millions of volumes in disarray and a german workforce they could not read hebrew yiddish or many other languages, he came up with the idea of photographing book stamps and replace and putting them on pages like this. These are memorized and used by the workers to rapidly sort the books and ultimately aided in the decisions around rest to ship. One thing to note is that book stamps may not reflect the library from which the book was taken. Dozen bookseveral stamps from america libraries as you can see here. I will give a plug for a really interesting dish all project that is being done by the center for jewish history. This is to map the location of these stamps and bookplates and have it be open source so that people who might know something about these libraries and addons that is onsite. The question of restitution was a thorny one. As various agencies and individuals claim to represent the Jewish Population and asserted rights to the box, ultimately the usbased jewish culture reconstruction incorporated which was an organization headed by sale of her own and a wellknown gains thetheorist authority to distribute the volumes. His owners could not be identified. The working offenbach would be an important step in the evolution of International Efforts to protect heritage and settle disputes over cultural property. As a humanitarian effort it became the most visible instance of american wartime policy and practices toward books and knowledge. Those involved extensively documented there were. They presented the depot as the antithesis to nazi looting and destruction. It was an instance of American Ingenuity and in initiative aided by international cooperation. Theres an entry in banquets his diary is often quoted. Its disappeared so we have this one quote. Your story and you get nervous about not having the diary that he said this. Quote i would come to boston books which the service is brought together lay scattered sheep into a old. I would find myself straining out these books and arranging them in the boxes with a sense of personal tenderness as if they belonged to someone dear to me someone recently deceased. Such reflections of skewer some of the strains of the depot and questionable decisions made about his holdings in the serious instance for example illegally released five boxes of her manuscripts which have been identified by the jewish scholar and it enabled them to be shipped palestine to the hebrew diversity. This incident was largely has to although there was a brief article in the Stars Stripes americans wanted to distinguish the values and behavior as opposed to looting and plundering committed by nazi germany. Offenbach legitimately offered a powerful illustration of that contrast. To conclude, the american wartime engagement in the world of books was multifaceted. Entangling libraries intelligence military and put in foreignpolicy aims and concerned with Cultural Heritage. For librarians in both men and women, the war spurred an intimate relationship with the state. It foster new is thinking about aspects of their professional such as storage, access and retrieval of printed materials. Plus the warlike innovations in Information Science and technology that would be fully realized only decades later. The mass collecting missions of the war and postwar era also had enduring consequences. One was the exploitation of seized german scientific journals. Program that extended far beyond the actions of the book men and women i described today. It started under the offices of the army and then became an agency of the department of commerce. These documents were republished and made available a lowcost to American Business and industry. And honey knowledged form of intellectual reparations. An its also played important part of german reconstructionist bookstores libraries and schools were purged of the literature that supported not see as him and militarism. D not to find books mustve been easier than personnel. Again, it was a measure of accomplishment. We can see to the front circumstances that led to the creation of the depot. Was aware that the was a hot potato and required a carefully deft response. The same time, those who encountered looted and bond libraries and collections were gripped by the destruction they witnessed in the line to repair the damage. The culture was is bound up with the entire complex of american wartime values and postwar aims. Mixing instrumental strategic and political concerns but also significantly a sense of responsibility towards the preservation and continuity of culture and knowledge in the aftermath of a devastating war. What a fascinating story. Little more than half an hour for your comments and questions. If you could please wait for the microphone. Please state your name and affiliation if you like. This first appear . Thank you for enlightening talk at think the paper does a nice job of cofinancing and adding to the work. Say Archibald Mcleish was involved. Understandtill dont what the urge was to collect some much information, surely they must of had to write what good stuff to god and how i was implemented and intelligence. You mentioned aeronautics. Did they find anything in this thats amaterial great question. The in the early years of the fees documents were used by a large number of academics to produce many many reports to the research and Analysis Branch of oss which are readily available to us. Most of these reports are what i would call contextualizing towards. Theyre about the politics of the night the nazi party about the psychology of morale. They dont have that kind of operational use that wouldve most important to the armed forces. That didnt begin to change. In the early phase they were really hamstrung by not being able to get direct access to what was going on on the ground. They certainly clean these were important and useful. Whether they actually where i think is really up for grabs. Also a common, a collection of massive amounts of information like we did today we collect even more. Yes. James banner. May i be alone to be a little bit insular when we talk about historians. Theres a silence in what you said and that is the role of historians mostly but other academics and institutions. Was any effort made to mobilize the constituent members of the cls founded i think in 1919. Was the American Historical Association involved . I suppose the mla and others could be asked about it. I would like to think the answer is yes but i worry about what it will be. Well i will give you an answer help will maybe not really you but may you good enough answer. Was very involved in the issue of protection and salvaging and ultimately restitution of its role heritage. Especially artwork. The National Gallery of art in the metropolitan museum of art the effort that he called the roberts commission, they were very involved in mobilizing support for its creation. As was a group of harvard American Defense harvard group. Their words like this and many other institutions that wanted to wanted a more interventionist stance but also were very concerned about the world of scholarship and culture. The American Historical Association im not so sure whether it as an association was involved in this but many many historians were members of the office of Strategic Services and were using the documents that have been gathered by the librarians and other collectors. They were scholars. I think there were several anthropologists in china and think historians. You very much. Its fascinating topic. Whats your name . Click my name is mary. I was especially interested to her about the way she was picked up by the government and pushed into her work. As someone whos worked in the library, that seems like such a huge learning curve. Im intrigued to know whether you found out anything about how they were trained so quickly to do such a potentially dangerous job . The initial training was pretty haphazard. Trying to find people who had some experience with micro photography. She had that experience. She learned of herself. She gained some additional experience in london. She flees london and was there for about six weeks. Theyre doing for a certain weather patterns like a flyer in from was scotlands to sweeten safely. About six weeks she was learning some additional microfilming just the technical training. She had incredibly good judgment she was really a scholars scholar. She knew what she was looking at and left a very meticulous is the only one to really left meticulous records of what she had done. How she was actually found weather was dominant or i suspect the other is very unclear to me. Shes the only one who will want to look at everyones personal i called hers up of course and there was a file that said Adel Geithner and it was empty. Theres probably some story there and i just dont know what is. Thanks and sam from george mason. I70 question about the status of the information that in gathered and reported on the early intelligence war. Its a. Of when it is considered sacred and sacrifices were much in flux. In one of the points anything about their couple of Supreme Court cases in world war ii germans of you agents in the u. S. Who are doing open source material and its a real pickle for the courts whether theyre doing espionage or not because the material is not a secret. And wondering how the material is being produced as a being classified . At what point is it being classified and housing being considered internally . Yes when the agents go abroad, they go abroad under their own passports and they are ntified as governments usually connected with the embassy is that they are attached to. They are not called librarians but there is no real question of what theyre doing abroad is above board and that simply as a way of protecting them. None of them to my knowledge has secret names and i spent a lot of time in the oss records trying to decode secret numbers and names and none of them seem to have it. The materials were classified secret i believe not high secret untilcret and remain so the declassification. , starting in the 70s onward. In fact in the library of congress that i was looking at how theof the library of congress is linked up with the itc some of the papers were still classified. Note declassify them and there was somebody there who have the power to declassify them on the spot. They were just eventually labeled as classified human though there were extremely innocuous. The most are very innocuous. Community take advantage of this despicable questions . First, could you talk a little bit about the sources for your study . Are what what organizing collections to do look at . There were some great researchers connected with this project. Secondly i wonder if you could comment on the film the Monuments Men based on your Indepth Research to the movie get it right . Thirdly since youre here at the center, we like to connect scholarship and Public Policy policymakers. What kind of lessons would you draw from the experience of world war ii . Altra questions. Give me a little time on that. As i said i stumbled on this project file and about my fathers list than done this work. He was long dead here was to fly was born. I ever heard. Items librarians that he did not know you done his work at all. Like a classic Google Search are searching for something on your last name and theres a relative who happen to be in intelligence. There were no family records whatsoever, not even a photograph. My sources a kind of started by following him. Aen he died in 1952 there was preface to a book that he had translated which was a memorial edition. It was 15 pages of recollections about him written by many of the leading lights in the record that i very field. Think everybody was dead. I went to find where the papers were so i wanted going to the intern job fred kilgore that time was still alive and he had an email address and email to him and he called me that night and said im so glad you called. He was 90 years old. He had to have its own intelligence agent. He did not tell me anything i didnt already know. That the project became bigger, clearly i was not writing a book about this relative national andives the oss records some of the state department as well as the Library Congress central files. One of the things thats interesting is that a number of the monument and took their own. They should have simply given the materials to the official Agency Initiative on the National Archives but in fact they didnt area. Summer the university of virginia, i went on one where his Research Trip to the university of regina, saskatchewan. I found papers of yet another monument man who is involved in the offenbach archival depo. Into the british National Archives, my friends in germany say the records there are not going to be very awful for this project which is very u. S. Focus. Those in the main sources that ive used. Film, i know that many historians just love to be. Isgruntled and get up in arms could have to learn about this remarkable moments in American History. It was a little bit of a cartoonish version of what in so much of the activity was not something you can make a film about. It is about restitution and chasing promenades. That whole side of the returning the artworks to paris, for the werepart the Monuments Men not really any physical danger. It was a hollywood version. Im glad people of some awareness about it. I recommend a documentary called the rape of europa. Far lessons for policymakers and think there are lessons for policymakers in academics. Its interesting to me that this is the time. When they do not have to much fear of each other or hostility to each other. They were actually able to Work Together to do something that was really remarkable and maybe not as much as they would wanted to do. Is a very remarkable story i think. I contrast that with say the difficulty in protecting the National Library and the National Museum in baghdad during the second iraq war. The difficulty that American Scholars have in thinking about working with government. Somehow that by definition of fraud and compromise relationship. I do think that there are occasions when each party can really learn from each other. Much betterdone so job protecting this Cultural Heritage that was upon its gone. That would be what i would say is a lesson i withdraw. I will get my question in. Wonderful i have many questions. This has to do with restitution. Of these slide had all acts. If i was able to read the small print correctly, it was just over a quarter of a million volumes headed toward moscow. You also made reference to the soviet unions trophy taking. Im assuming that the oneway arrow. The books that are in the soviet red army has dominated, but so not going in the other direction. Thats an assumption which may be correct but it is, how is fall into american policymakers discussion about our wartime ally in postwar. Not much of an ally. When the soviet union is not reciprocating, not participating in the same exchange that americans are. Does not have any pull whatsoever . Or was there larger political purpose. That slide is a little bit deceptive. It was sort of the wishful version was happening. There were soviet restitution officers who came to the offenbach archival depo and identify materials that clearly belongs to soviet institutions. The issue that was more problematic was the return of jewish books to the soviet union in poland. Was they stopped those stopped those from being sent. In later israel. Not to send them to the soviet union. It was already a somewhat fraught issue for the policymakers. Thats why that idea of it being hot potato it was only hot but also because of the awareness that it be going to countries where they might never couple more questions. Well start with the one in the back. Qwest thank you very much. I was involved in some of his later. Im also teaching now. My question has to do with their two things i think one is what later became the open source center. The heavy artifacts. These are separate. I wonder if you could take us forward little bit because they all come together forward to being dealt with. What happened after . Did the bible books given tournament was the end of the story and the cia takes over . Ive been in several Library Congress offices and they were just buying everything in print. So those are directly. And measure how well i can do this because i really am looking at this time immediate postwar. In decisions but together the newspapers periodicals reproduced reproducible texts texts because they usually are separated. We usually think about them separately and i want to think about an entire world of print culture in a sense. Afterwards is the rare materials are restitution to typically the countries of origin and then they are restitution. As weve seen over recent decades, some of that never really got back to their owner, some of it is still being contested whether its in germany and france and other in the United States theres a whole question of opportunistic looting or taking by individuals. Those materials being returned to their to where they been created. One of the consequences though was to expand the sort of microfilming programs so thats it was an initiative that started in the 1930s. That continues to the american libraries that have microfilm of some of the rare manuscripts in europe. That was very much pushed by people in the mla and aj and American Scholars. Missionary of congress which i described here is a shortterm effort during the time when the book trade still has been suspended. Normal,is returns to increasingly the state sets ofnts publications procurement offices library of congress has their people going out and purchasing as it is true before but now it much higher level. I think that some of the practices before the war continued but are ramped up and are also wrapped up in the propagandistic elements of the usia. Bringing the american story to these libraries around the american libraries around the world. Thats how i would see these different strands coming together here. Continuing the accelerated pace. John appeared. My name is fred. I work with lebron congress. Ive seen you before. My colleagues specialists were tuned in hand. The role thed by Library Congress had in it was wondering after he left the Library Congress to work in the a politicalment, scientist to go over and we question was the fact that its mcleish was in the state departments in a political scientist was in charge of the library did that has some special dynamic there . Institution which probably was involved because the a lot of librarians are members of the American Library ifociation, i was wondering the archives in illinois were at all helpful . They were. I looked at them very early on and id forgotten that the kla archives university of illinois Champaign Urbana are incredibly helpful and all of these subjects. They had a very Robust International division. A leader on international librarianship. Is also a wonderful character. Hes an american type of mark twain or something. It was great to read his work. Are other librarians have been on a mission of other papers there. It was a great resource. He is somewhat more of a administrator. Administrator but also a visionary who have an understanding of what was it think. He would color variance to understand what was at stake. Democracy, youre right. Evans was more bureaucratic and anxious when the library of acquiringeems to be massive amounts of confiscated nazi material. He started to get really worried about whether this can be read as looting. Has his secondincommand writes a little piece that appears in one of the Library Journals about this is not looting this is acquisition. Wanted to go back to the couple of civic questions. And anita jones. And thatoned a cls they were active in the store also station not so much. Is ancls as i know it association of associations. Really its the skeletal kind of staff. Im wondering how that worked area in question as you also mentioned the rockefeller foundation. Anquestion there is one that isolated thing or were they much more involved . Also where other foundations involved . I dont know about other foundations. Rockefeller could put a fair amount of effort into microfilm and the technology in the 1930s and the importance of microfilm. Preservation purposes but also access purposes. This was about the idea of interlibrary loan and theres an old concept among librarians going back to world war i that interlibrary loan would be a force for rupees. You can always hope. Knowledge andf Intercultural Exchange is a good thing. Rockefeller puts a nice amount of money behind and continue to support it. The a cls was involved largely as a clearinghouse for identifying dollars who could be helpful. Again this is particularly with the aim of protecting what they call cultural monuments. So they got archaeologists, our historians, writers the whole variety of people to create these lists the most important monuments in rome. They created these lists. They mapped them en masse. These maps were taken on board planes that were bombing around rome for example. It was really a question of are the experts and how can they be mobilized to protect Cultural Treasures . Gentleman here. Lets take a couple this were running out of time. On our. Bart. I was interested in your comments about the restitution as ito its understood what youre saying the materials of the return to. He country from which it come what about the end of it . Or was there some policy about aboutor suggestion returning it to the original owner . Admittedly many of them were dead and unavailable, but certainly many were not. Im from the university of china. Theuestion is about japanese record. Ther the Second World War japanese records were in american hands. There were concerned about the fate of these records. Under ay also possessive selection . Was the standard . In the blue. X im a librarian at the u. S. Holocaust memorial museum. The question is how you think the restitution of his time at offenbach affects the issues that are so happening today as their libraries materials that were never returned, libraries and various parts of germany and austria that are binding books they didnt realize they had were the americans missed another year to restitution some 70 years later. The russians. Thats at the material. Do you think there was positive or negative of what we did back let meate piggyback on the last question. Has everything been found the training that may not be married buried. The percentage of materials have been found . Thank you. Let me add one final question. Was this a uniquely american endeavor . Or are there examples of other countries to engage in this kind of effort . Very quickly. So many questions. The restitution to the country of origin, not is an understanding that was sort of within international law. And it was codified by the allied powers. The allies were not really able oncome up with an agreements the details of individual restitution. They fell back on if it had been looted from the netherlands and went back to the netherlands area was always other materials that were in harder category. The japanese record thats a great question. And i dont know very much about it. I do know is that there wasnt this kind of program on the part of the Library Congress or the American Military to make the selections. Do not massive quantities were brought to the United States and i think it was pretty indiscriminate. It was not seen as something that was wrapped up with the issue of Cultural Heritage or cultural protection as it was in europe. I think thats something about the different status of these fronts and these wars in the pacific and in europe. Later,tion 70 years positive or negative its really hard to know as a historian how to assess this. If Nothing Happened it would have been terrible area thats the sort of bottom line for me. There are plenty of instances where nothing would have happened. I think they did a relatively good job given the political pressures of this time. Thinking about the jewish materials. Holocaust, buthe also that there was no state of israel. Had there been a state of israel, this could have been sent to that might have been one solution. But this was starting out no state of israel. Jewish cultural reconstruction i think one can argue about their the decisions they made about where materials could should go. I think somebody will need to look at that almost on a book by book library by library basis. Ive done a little bit of looking at the University Pennsylvania and we have some very hot things that a man under the rubric of jewish cultural reconstruction. They probably should not have. The percentage of books that we have that were looted and we now have i dont not thats possible to know. I think thats just an unknown. Whether it was uniquely i think that the idea andass acquisition industrialstrength acquisition is american. British some efforts on the part of the british to the restitution. They were not particularly interested in the book acquisition project of the library of congress. Time i cannot think engageder country that in this kind of activity. Seems to me very much an american style mission. Thank you. We have to draw a similar to close. For a join us right now reception on the other set of posters. I will note that there will be no seminar next week. Backer 19 you can come power sincespeak on 1750. Thank you. [applause] join American History tv on saturday, november 7 for tours and live interviews from the National World War Ii Museum in new orleans. We will explore tank experiments and the africanamericans. We will take your questions for historians joining us out today. 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