Transcripts For CSPAN3 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20160924

Committee as well. Republican of North Carolina. Thank you for talking to our viewers. Greta, its been a pleasure to be with you and to answer the calls as well. We want to welcome to our table Michele Jawando at the center for American Progress. Vice president for legal progress. Thanks for being here for this conversation. Thanks for having me. I want to start with the Police Shootings in North Carolina, in charlotte and tulsa. And talk about the trend. The Washington Post has a story this morning that Police Shootings are on par to be what they were last year, around 1,000 police killings. So, you know, as we begin to kind of consider this moment again for communities of color, particularly the Africanamerican Community, there seems to be a vicious loop that continues to play out. And i think sometimes we separate the hash tags or seeing the protests, and we forget these are family members. These are husbands. These are fathers. And while we as a country are reeliing with this tragedy, the families, those communities are individually impacted in ways we cant begin to fathom. For many communities, they look at whats happening in charlotte and what happened in oklahoma, and i think Many Americans of all stripes are saying, i think we can do better than this. There is a systemic pattern here, and i think as americans, we have to start to think about, well, what are the things we can do either in law or policy or what are good oldfashioned conversations we can have at our Kitchen Table to get us on the right track for the next generations. Whats happening with policing in this country that is leading to these Police Shootings, these fatal shootings . So, i think there are a few things. I think its important to also recognize that historically, for particularly the Africanamerican Community, the role of policing has always has some origins in a very ugly history. I think about the fact that this weekend, the opening of the Smithsonian Museum will happen, and there are many exhibits that look at the beginning and origins of policing in this country really started with slave patrols. There were officers who were looking for runaway slaves. Now, obviously, we have come a long way from there, but i think we have to also recognize that there are vestiges of kind of either disparities and treatment for some people, particularly in the context of Law Enforcement. When we talk about what are things we can do to kind of change what some may see seems to be the norm, i think it goes back to training, accountability and transparency. When we look at the fact that, according to the bureau of justice statistics, between 2011 and 2013, there were about 178 hours of training for local and state Law Enforcement. But only about 21 hours of that time was spent on use of force. And that use of force training also included deescalation training. The rest, firearms training, Rapid Response training. When we think about it, is that the balanced approach . Most would say its not. What is your response to the charlotte situation, as someone who practiced civil rights law, what do you make of this argument that the video should be released and should be released right now during this investigation . Well, i also attended law school in North Carolina, so this hits near and dear to me. I have many friends, colleagues, law professors who are still in the area. When the governor of North Carolina signed this bill earlier this year, i knew that this moment would come. And the reason i say that is, whenever you are trying to build trust between communities and Law Enforcement, those who are going who you are there to serve, you want to create an environment where you can build trust. Where theres accountability, transparency. When you are hiding information that is public record, you cast dispersions on whatever investigation is happening. So, y es, we are hearing report from the sheriff and Law Enforcement about whats on the video. But i think for most people, as they hear this, they want to see it themselves. It is public record. I think if you want communities to kind of take a step back and believe, then you also have to show the american people, you show your citizens that, yes, we believe you. We trust you. And we want to show you that were working on your behalf. Remind our viewers what law the governor signed. So earlier in the year, governor mccrory signed a bill that would essentially withhold police and dash cam video from the public. And that law also meant that families could view it but families couldnt release it. Their counsel could view it, but the counsel couldnt release it. And you have to wonder and you juxtapose whats happening in oklahoma. You dont see riots in the street. You quickly saw the charges come down. And you juxtapose that with what you have seen three nights of demonstrations and protests in charlotte. You have to ask yourself, whats happening here . And you see that transparency is a part of the problem. What do you think the introduction of body cams and dash cams and people using their cell phones, what has that done to what were seeing here in the criminal justice process . Well, without question, it has been revolutionary. It is definitely a disruptive technology. But i say that if we only look at bad behavior, and we dont fix the behavior, and we dont update the training, its not enough. We have to have a conversation about this country in this country about race and how implicit bias plays into our work. Earlier in the year, a number of my colleagues and i released a report at the center for American Progress where we talked about implicit bias. We talked about the fact that theres research thats has come out that says africanamerican men, according to some empirical evidence, are seen from Law Enforcement as hypermasculine and, therefore, maybe more prone to violence. Now when you have those biases, how are you going to react in splitsecond situations . The only way you can overcome that is when you have directed training that speaks of that issue where you continually are talking about use of force, and you also recognize how can i prepare my local Law Enforcement leaders and to prepare for these situations and these instances. How do i diversify my police force so that we make sure that we recognize that diversity is a strength, particularly in the Law Enforcement context. These changes that you talked about, are they included in the criminal Justice Reform bill thats pending before congress, some of those ideas . Well, sadly, ill say no, not yet. Many of these ideas were included in the president s task force on 21st century policing. I was very happy to see some of these recommendations take hold in many jurisdictions across the country, like in dallas. Weve seen some of these trainings also take hold in california and new york, so this is something local Law Enforcement can move on without having to wait for congress. And i also think that the this work should be ongoing. This isnt we take one of step and we finish. Progress is not completion. To the extent that we recognize these are things that we as a society have to grapple with and be aggressive about dealing with, i think well see some of the type of success that we need to rebuild the trust in our communities. Lets get some calls in from arlington, texas. Malik, independent. Caller how are you doing . Morning. Good morning. Caller first and foremost, id like to say that theres been a hundredyear history of police brutility. During the Church Committee hearings, theres been a situation where Law Enforcement was in ka thatses with in ku klux klan to murder and assault members of sclc. We also know these loaded phrases like saying they felt threatened or they were in fear for their life or the person was going for their gun have been rehearsed and have been legitimized because theres a culture in this country that has said, black people are not human. Weve been that way. Its been that way. Were on welfare, so the world, the country is better off without that burden. So if one gets killed, lets deflect from that argument of injustice killed, lets deflect from that argument of injustice, and talk about chicago or drugs or maybe he was on drugs or the hypothetical that he may have been threatened. I was in fear for my life. These are all loaded phrases to remind people to say this is a black person. They are not human. They are not here to be a part of our system of justice. This is not Law Enforcement. Police dont enforce law, they gain facts. People render judgments. Innocent or guilty or a judge will render innocent or guilty judgments. And its the people, the citizenry that enforces laws. Okay, malik, well take your comments. First of all, malik, i appreciate your comment and particularly about the origin of Law Enforcement. You know, there has been a lot of conversation about what black lives matter means. And i think the caller basically touched on this fact that the saying black lives matter in some ways is just a reaffirmation of the blacks in this country. And i think the reason it has taken hold has been because of a powerful, positive force in this country. Because if you look at the statistical facts, well is an ongoing disproportionate situation going on, of all the unarmed individuals, 40 were africanamerican men, but africanamerican men only make up 6 of the population. And this is the unarmed shooting by police in 2015. So there is something very real there so when you hear kind of the anguish and quite frankly the passion of your previous caller it is speaking to that fact that you continually see these instances. And you say you know what, something has to happen. This is not right. This is not my country. And sometimes quite frankly i dont feel safe in the country that i live in and i call home. Lets go to charlotte, North Carolina, welcome to the conversation, go ahead. Caller thank you, caller i was there wednesday at the park where there was a peaceful march and everything. We went down to the center, everything got really turned up. And the priests started lining up, talking about they dont care about black lives matter. But black lives matter are not hyper active ready to fight our time, we just want respect like everybody else does. Were not hear to start trouble. If the police are so scared when they see blacks, why dont they get another job or profession, youre so intimidated by somebody, a big black dude, why dont you get another job. You cant be scared in your job. You know, anthony speaks to something that is highlighted in our reports. There is research that shows that africanamerican men, even africanamerican boys are seen five to seven years older th. And when he was shot one of the callers called in and said i see an africanamerican, youre a young man. I believe around 18 years old. And so when the officer showed up and shot him in less than two seconds, he immediately didnt see a 12yearold boy with a bb gun gu gun, he saw an 18yearold man with a gun. I might add that ohio is an open carry state. So that is Something Different to speak to. But somehow how we play on it our implicit bias, which causes us to act in a split second. Ongoing training cant happen only at the academy. It must be ongoing and continual and we need to have a conversation in this country about why we dont have National Standards around use of force. What has been seen as kind of reasonable use of force in these instances. If all you can say is i was in fear of my life, but weve seen empirical differences, there has to be a reconciliation on how you view those two things. That is why we see research and training is important to appreciate the differences on how this occurs. Well go to robert on our line for republicans in brooklyn. Caller hi, good evening. I want to ask about perception, and not in North Carolina, but 28 states are they bring up the black thing in North Carolina, i would like to answer a question, when president clinton pulled away the confederate flag, and called black children predators, its because of people here and the view of the country. So you know, there are a few things. You know, North Carolina, actually as the caller stated has really been the epicenter of a number of major issues. You know, i was there in the late 90s and early 2000s. And North Carolina, you saw a great number of services in school, and restoring services for the Justice System. I will tell you, unfortunately in the last few years weve seen a huge shift and change away from kind of practices that would create a more open and diverse and welcoming community for all different people, whether youre talking about the Lgbtq Community in the context of the transgender bathroom situation. Or seeing the massive rolling back of Voting Rights, 2008 was the first time blacks in the state outvoted whites in the state. And you quickly saw an omnibus of what was called the worst Voting Rights bill in the country passed by the republican legislature. At the same time, you have now seen the governor put forth kind of really these draconian justicebills to sort of hide the dash cam videos and such. That is why you hear people like reverend barber saying the state is better than that, and they know they need to move forward not back wards. And we have had him on the show. I do want to follow up on the legislature that the governor passed because one viewer says you said with hold, but the law says unless directed to release by a judge. Yes, but one of the things i will say is whenever you put yourself in a situation where public again, public evidence that belongs to the people has to be litigated before a member of the bench, we have a problem of the there is no reason why we should start from the frame of you have to go through a number of different steps before you release information that would both lead to Greater Trust and belief in the process of your community. So you know, i recognize that that is a point. But quite frankly we see now that there have been over three days of protests, in the state contrasting that with oklahoma where that video was immediately released. And i think one of the things you can point to is there is a lack of transparency, which leads to a lack of accountability for all involved. What do you think regarding the state of carolina, and charlotte, and others with the stop and frisk policy, donald trump said it worked in new york. Others say it did not. It did not lead to a successful end. But what would lead to the october of that . So i am a new yorker and so excited that you asked this question. Because what we saw in new york after the removal of stop and frisk, we actually saw crime not only go down but you saw Greater Community involvement in solving crimes s in completes. So it says to us when you put forth policies that are not rooted in data or any type of fact, but you are making a massive kind of profiling you again erode the trust that you need. Whatever we do in this country, we have to figure out how to do it together. Law enforcement is not separate from our communities, communities are not separate from working with Law Enforcement. But you have to figure out what you can do to foster the relationships. And when you have draconian policies like stop and frisk, and we saw crime go down, after stop and frisk, we know that is a problem and not a policy we should bring back. Lets go to connecticut, james, i, good morning to you youre on the air. Caller so how are you doing today . Thank you for taking my call. Can you hear me . Yeah, we can. Youre on the air. Caller first of all the federal Interest Rates is one of the problems here in america that is really causing a lot of the shootings and killings. So we dont have to money to be able to invest in the communities, its really hard for us to elaborate on the poverty in those areas. The second thing is the job monopoly, they have a plethora of companies that are owned by so many i guess individuals that dont have blacks interests for mind. They exclude blacks from hiring. We look at the record and statistics. You will find real fast that a black man is the highest Unemployment Rate, as you showed it on cspan before. The Unemployment Rate for a black man in flint is i think somewhere like 80 . And the schools, the schools, a person on probation for ten years, 20 years. These are the things that stop people from getting a good education and get a job and be active in society. See, were not active in society so we can never ever have the ability to actually follow the rules the cops are asking us to follow. Lets get a reaction. I think your caller raises a very important point. The reality is one in four africanamericans live in an area of extreme poverty. And what we know is that in areas of poor communities, they live in areas with higher crime rates. So we dont want to talk about how to reduce crime in our completes. We have to look at poverty and generational poverty and look at how we continue to pour resources, job, Educational Opportunities in these communities. If we do that and again, that is a wraparound fullscale solution to the area of crime. I think there was something that the president said in his dallas speech that i thought was very important. We often ask our Law Enforcement officials to do too much. We often ask them to be social workers and education providers. And he raised than excellent point that we have to figure out how we speak to these communities and provide greaters resources, whether its health care or education. And we have to address poverty, something we dont hear people talk about it these days, but is definitely an ancillary as we talk about crimes. To me, the whole problem, mass drugs, incarceration, we dont hear this talked about much. The chief mandate of the criminal Justice System is not to prosecute the guilty but to safeguard the innocent from wrongful convictions. Just read the bill of rights. How can any american with a brain be satisfied with america being the number one in incarceration. The United States is no industrial eized nation even ha the death penalty. Its iran, china, iraq, were the only country that has forprofit bail bondsmen, then we take millions of drivers license away from people. Then what do you expect. To quote thomas jefferson, when justice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. But the whole thing is the mass incarceration. The blacks have destroyed, you saw in New York Times. 1. 5 million black men missing from life. Its broken down, i want to ask this lady. You need to start asking your friends or colleagues or who you debate or talk to, why do you think we have the 21st amendment . It repealed the 18th amendment which was alcohol prohibition because all the white folks were shooting each other their kids were shooting each other and they were being locked up. So all the women came out and said we thought stamping out alcohol would be a good thing, we have to admit we were wrong. And look, some of the banners in 1930, 32, red, save our children, end prohibition. Okay. Ed. Thank you so much. You know, so ed raises an incredibly important point, particularly about mass incarceration. We are the worlds leader, one of the few industrialized countries that still have the death penalty. That is why i have been so heartened to see kind of the actions of the Obama Administration this year, particularly, and even as we sit here on capitol hill seeing a Bipartisan Coalition emerge looking at the issue of criminal Justice Reform. Particularly in the areas of sentencing. Although right now, ill be honest that some of the momentum has stalled because we are in the election season but i hope we can move forth. Getting rid of draconian mandatory minimums. Looking at issues of why we still keep young people in solitary confinement, in state and local systems, it was out lawed in federal, but its something we have to look at. The department of justice recently announced they will no longer use forprofit prisons. These are conversations that as a country we havent quite had the bravery to address and the courage to address. Were starting to see a Bipartisan Coalition of voices and actors emerge everywhere from cory booker, my president working right alongside people like grover norquist, saying that something must be done and that gives me hope. Barbara, from tennessee, a republican. Barbara, good morning to you, youre on the air. Caller good morning, thank you for taking my call. I have a comment and id like a response for your guest. Nobody talks about this much, but it really bothers me. How about improving relations between communities and Law Enforcement by complying to what they ask you to do when you get pulled over. Take a poll and see how many people walk away from a cop, i dont care if your hands are up or down, that is a red flag. Nobody is above the law, it dont matter what color the skin. But it seems to me some people are. That is a red flag right there. So barbara, for the video this tulsa, some people say that the officer told the black man to walk back to his vehicle. Uhhuh. And that he was obeying the officer in that situation. That is exactly right. And again, this speaks to why that video was so important. But in this video that we have seen thus far you have someone who is complies with the officers commands, who is walking back to his car with his happens up in a position of surrender. And this goes to the larger issue of training and use of force. If you are put in that situation. Also coming to the psyche of terence crutcher. He has his car, he called for help for a broken down car. His father was a pastor and talked about the training that he gave his son from a very young age. Quite frankly, its the talk that everyone in the Africanamerican Community has with their child from the moment you start to drive. I remember quite frankly the conversation my parents had with me. And these in some ways are life lessons that take away the innocence of our children but it recognizes we have to do Something Different and unique from other communities to bring our children back safely. There is a litany of stories that circulate around things you can be killed from by being bla black, whether the Walking Around, reading a book, buying skittles, or sitting this your home. And when these stories play out, and stories in oklahoma where you see somebody who definitions to comply and yet never makes it back to his four children that is something all americans should have affected by. H this is not a good thing in our country, we can do Something Different than this. Were better than this. The officer is being charged, first degree manslaughter coast guarded against this officer, legally, what does this officer face . So it is a huge step that this charge has even happened. I think it is important to both recognize and acknowledge that. But the step in the Journey Towards justice is a long one. So this is actually the first step in the process. You will now see if things move forward towards an indictment or if a judge will see if those charges are the right ones that will be brought. We know in these situations and we can look only at the freddie gray case in baltimore, where somebody died in police custody, and no one was actually ever officially indicted for his death. And so we know that there is a long road between charge, indictment and sentencing. But i will say it is a step in the right direction. And hopefully, quite frankly, we dont want these instances to happen. We want better training. We want Law Enforcement officers to go home to their family. But we also want africanamericans to go home to theirs. And i think recognizing that we can live in a society where we can both care about Law Enforcement, but we can also respect the humanity of others and say that we need better training so that these instances do not become as common place as they are. Wayne, harris burg, pennsylvania, democrat. Good morning. Caller how are you ladies doing today . The main thing im looking at is jobs. The black man is under so much pressure. I have four sons. They go to work every day. On the job is pressure. Their boss messes with them. Their supervisor, then you have the women, the kids, black men want to do for their family if you give them a chance. Even with the police, now, if you have all of these problems in a daily daily effect, you are going to be pissed off. You are going to be upset. And the minute somebody the Police Approach you, theyre scared. Youre upset. Now, i have 35 nieces. A couple of them work for the correctional institutions, right . All of their boyfriends do not have jobs. How do you think that makes them feel . I want to take your point, wayne. You know, wayne spoke to something that i think is important and was highlighted and i think in a the New York Times article this week kind of is what happened to the psyche of communities after you continually see these shootings. There is a quote in an article that says it seems to me were seeing modernday lynching play over and over again on social media. I think that is something you dont quite acknowledge, that there are people who are Walking Around with Traumatic Stress syndrome related to these incidents. There has been some research that has recently come out about young People Living in areas like chicago and certain areas that are dealing with the same level of ptsd as we see for our returning veterans. What does that say about us as a nation . It says we have great work to do but there has to be an acknowledgment that affects communities differently. Training is important. Having the cultural competency and having the understanding there is a problem, there is something here, there is a segment of our american citizens that are affected differently from everybody else. And that means that we have to do something above and beyond to make sure that their lives are as valued and sacred and important as everybody else. I want to see your reaction on this, in the herald in North Carolina, trying to reach out to residents rattled by the killing of a woman this week and the shooting this month that left five wounded and one dead. I think that is the type of leadership we see from Law Enforcement officers all over the country. I remember growing up, we had the Police Athletic league in new york where local Law Enforcement would set up basketball games, boys and girls, all during the summer. What we saw was lower crime in those communities where these Police Athletic leagues were happening. Whether or not were talking about Community Engagement and police forming, just knowing the community you serve. And there is a power and relationship there. Again, that is how you build trust and bridge these gaps. Lets hear from hyran in orlando, florida, independent. Caller good morning, ladies. What i want to say is our constitution is ready for truth and love. And the most important thing in our lives is our life. You just dont take a life. Its a son of god. And if we start the top and everyone tells the truth, see, a lie is the easiest thing to tell but then you have to tell Something Else to cover it up. And that is what is wrong with the nation right now. Back up there in carolina, if a black person gets a position he has to go along with the program. They got to tell a lie and tell a lie until theyre washed over. And this is why its so hard now because the blacks have said theyre tired of taking these lies and its going to get worse and worse and worse until people start to tell the truth. God says tell the truth. Okay, hyram. You know, he talks about love. And i think that that speaks to an issue that one of your other callers alluded to earlier. How do we have greater respect and compassion for one another . That is why some of these things we can move forward in law. And some of these things we can move forward in public policy. But quite frankly these are conversations we have to have with our children. These are the tough, honest conversations we have to have with our coworkers. How do we understand and respect the humanity. And quite frankly, the indignity of these moments and what this means to our fellow brothers and sisters along the way. Couple of more calls here, margaret in franklinton, North Carolina, democrat. Caller yes, i have three questions or comments for the guest, please. First of all, i hate to say it but i feel like some of these officers actually they already know what theyre going to do when they have these encounters. They already know how they feel and what theyre going to do. And second, why do they need to be trained not to use deadly force against nonafricanamericans. The trend seems to be working pretty well if the person is not black. And third, i always felt like since they have the power of life and death in their hands they need to be required to have a fouryear bachelors degree in criminal justice. That is the way i feel. Thank you. You know, i think there are a few things there. So one, we go back to we do not have nationwide use of force standards for these situations. And when the standard is just what is a reasonable moment, it lets us know that the training we currently have is not enough. That is why looking at communities like dallas that have the ongoing bias training, you have former gang members coming in to work with local Law Enforcement to have this training. That is incredibly important. We know these officers who are doing the wrong things, we do know that there are quite frankly some people who should not have the honor of wearing that badge. Because of their behavior, things they said in the past, and we cant be afraid to identify those people and remove them from the privilege of serving as a member of Law Enforcement. I mean, if we are going to fix this problem we have to be honest. Not everyone should have the badge. Not everyone should have the Great Authority that we give our local members of Law Enforcement. With Great Authority comes great responsibility. And we know not everyone is worthy of that. New cumberland, west virginia, don, a republican. Caller good morning, ladies. I think the problem is in the Police Training academy. We have to quit militarizing our approximapolic police, they have the attitude that their life is more valuable than the one they are pointing the gun at. I think you are very right, that is why i was very heartened after ferguson. Those images of literally communities walking into peaceful constitutionally sanctioned protests, members of Law Enforcement looking like theyre preparing to go to war against their neighbors, against members of communities. Those are not the type of images that should be coming forth. And you saw bipartisan voices, senator claire mccaskill, and others coming out saying we need to do something about that. You saw obama coming out to move that would restrict the law that gives military equipment to local Law Enforcement. That is one of the steps, but again, getting rid of the equipment is one step. Training is another. Again, understanding use of force, making sure that Community Policing is not just something we say but it is part of our approach to policing and living and working in these communities. And robert from henderson, kentucky, independent. Caller good morning, ladies. The police are never held accountable for anything they do. Please bear with me. When you have a organization that has hugo black, that sat on the police force, the nations fabric is sewn in racism and built on violence and theft. And when you have people like mike pence and donald trump flaming the flames of racism, saying things he knows are not true, some people recognize and acknowledge that police are wrong sometimes. And when good Police Officers stand up and speak out that will bring about a change. But this constant jumping on people fighting the fight against racism, its not right. Yes, robert speaks on a number of things. You do have a history of some people like hugo black who sat on the Supreme Court with a checkered past. But you also have progress in the form of sonia sotomayer. And saying quite frankly, we live in a country with different Law Enforcement than other areas. There is a power in having someone with her background sit on the Supreme Court and state that in the Supreme Court opinion. I also say that listen, the progress of this country has been long. Again, well open the museum this weekend, with the africanamerican president cutting the ribbon. We have made progress. But it is important to recognize the legacy and also see how that legacy continues to affect police today. Having those honest conversations are not the wrong thing to do, in fact its what we must do in order to overcome it. Those disparities are real, we see them play out from places like charlotte to oklahoma to places like baltimore. And until we have the tough conversationings and look at these issues we wont make the progress that our country deserves to see. By the way, our cameras will be there for the ribboncutting ceremony for the museum, at 10 00 a. M. On cspan. Org, you can also listen on the radio app. Michelle jawando, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Viewers can go to cspan. Org for more. And listening to issues that impact you, coming up saturday morning, politics editor for the washington editor will join us for the first president ial debate. And then gerald carr talks about race relations, and with the opening of the africanamerican museum of history and culture. Watch live beginning at 7 00 eastern, join the discussion. Leading up to the debates between Hillary Clinton and donald trump well look at past president ial debates saturdays on cspan at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, this saturday, its the 1976 debate between incumbent president gerald ford and incumbent jimmy carter. We were faced with heavy unemployment, 12 , but in the last 24 months weve turned the economy around. We have 500,000 more americans out of jobs today than were out of work three months ago. And since mr. Ford has been this office the past two years, we have had a 53 increase in unemployment. The debate with Ronald Reagan and former president jimmy carter. When i made my decision to stop all trade with iran as a result of the the taking of hostages i announced then and have consistently maintained since then, that if the hostages are released well make delivery on those items which iran warns. We had adequate warning to either strengthen our security or remove our personnel, before the kidnapping took place. In the 2000 president ial debate between Vice President bush and al gore. I will balance the budget every year and pay down the national debt. I will put medicare and Social Security in a locked box and protect them. I want to take one half of the surplus and dedicate it to Social Security. One quarter for important projects, and ill send one quarter back to people who pay the bills. Watch past president ial debates saturdayday night easte on cspan, watch any time and listen at 8 00 p. M. And listen on the cspan radio app. On thursday, the house looked at Sexual Assault allegations, utah representative jason chatfetz faired the hearing on the oversight committee. Without objects, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We have an important hearing today entitled the examining conduct and mismanagement at the National Park service. In june, National Park Service Director jarvis spoke on the issue at the park service, suggesting things could potentially get worse before he got better and boy was he right. We have been able to illuminate and find more problems that unfortunately have been festering in the system for far, far too long. Since director jarvis testimony, numerous employees have contacted us to discuss the misconduct at the park service and today were hearing what the park service has done to stop the harassment and find out why it keeps happening. There seems to be some patterns here there are just not anything that we should come close to tolerating. These incidents are happening at our countrys most loved parks, from yellowstone to the grand canyon, these are some of the most famous, visited parks in the world. Unfortunately, they also face allegations of disturbi ining misbehavior. Its difficult to have these conversations in a young setting, and i warn the parents that some of this will probably be a little touchy and inappropriate. But it is what we do in this country, we illuminate things. We shine the light on them. Were different in the United States, i say time and time again were selfcritical. We better come to a reality, because far too often the people accused of these terrible behaviors, need to see results. At least 18 employees say there is harassment, and lay the blame on top at dan neubacher, the investigation concluded this, quote, the number of employees interviewed that described terrible working conditions lead us to believe that the environment is indeed toxic, hostile, repressive and harassing, end quote. I dont know that it could get any worse than that, but that is his conclusion. These are the words of the Park Services own internal committee, not the staff or the office of the Inspector General. Currently, superintendent neubacher is still running yosemite. He is still there. If this was the only park suffering from these problems it would be enough of a serious concern. Yet recent allegations from the nations first park, ye yellowstone, include Sexual Harassment so terrible that it is disturbing even to discuss. With accusations so alarming you would expect the Washington Office to step in immediately and insure that employees in yellowstone are safe. While we appreciate the Inspector General to step in, the park service must be more aggressive in protecting the park service. We see it time and time again, its not good enough to just say were going to ask the Inspector General to do it. The park service and the other agencies need to do their job in providing immediate relief, not punt it to somebody else to start to do it. Its not good enough to just say were going to do a survey. Im tired of hearing about surveys. There is a problem. In our june hearing, we heard about problems in the canaveral National Park, since then it is concluded that the supervisors that allowed this conduct to occur in the park were not just punished, some were even promoted. What in the world does it take to get fired from the park service . In most of the cases, its not just one he said, she said. Here is a case where well is 18 people. 18. Who are talking about this. Leaders who fail in their obligations to protect the public or their employees they need to be fired. If theyre not going to take action and protect the employees of the United States of america then they should leave. We had hoped our hearing with director jarvis would have prompted change. Instead it seemed to have been merely treated as a speed bump. Based on what weve seen, the crisis has been to require additional training for managers and to realign the eeo, so that it reports to director jarvis. Of course, this is the same director removed from overseeing the park Service Ethics program because of his own integrity failures, including lying to the secretary of interior. Im glad to see that director jarvis has announced his retirement. I think that should have happened quite sometime ago. But it is kind of stunning that the director of the park service is prohibited from administering the Ethics Program because of his own ethics problems. And then we wonder why we have a hard time implementing ethical reforms or implementing things at the park service. How are the employees supposed to trust the eeo process when the person in charge has not followed the rules themselves . Something needs to change and needs to change fast. I would like to acknowledge we are joined today by two argue Service Employees testifying in a whistleblower capacity. These brave employees have come forward despite the fear of possible retaliation. I have to tell you, well have nothing of that. Mr. Cummings and i, democrats, republicans, are united in the idea that we will go to the ends of the earth to protect people who step up as whistleblowers. It takes a great deal of guts to come testify before this committee in a voluntary situation and explain what you have seen firsthand. For that, were exceptionally grateful. Its a difficult thing to do. I cant imagine you ever imagining in your life that you would be in this situation testifying before congress. But as i said before we take this responsibility very seriously. We cant fix it if we dont know precisely what it is. We have a pretty good indication of what it is. But to hear from the front lines what is really happening is a pivotal concern to us. We want to thank you for your courage and willingness to step forward. And we expect candid answers. And we will do all we can to protect you from any sort of repri repriceals. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I do indeed thank you for calling this hearing. No employee in the federal Civil Service should ever feel afraid to come to work. Simple statement. But its very, very important. And no employee should ever feel retaliation, if he or she steps forward to report misconduct that makes him or her feel afraid or uncomfortable. I thank kelly martin, the chief of fire and aviation management at yosemite National Park and ryan healey, Fisheries Program manager at the grand canyon for being here today. I thank them for their courage and their willingness to come forward and share with this committee their experiences over decades of work for the federal government. I also thank you for your service. It should not have been necessary for them to be here today to testify. A task force convened some 60 years ago to commission a study of women in occupations in the park service. Here is what that study found. Some individuals in positions of authority appear to condone either by their action or inaction Sexual Harassment and discrimination. The system used for handling complaints is not trusted by the employees. Nor timely in its ability to bring resolution to complaints. That is a major, major problem. It went on to say employees feel retaliation if complaints are voiced. That was 16 years ago. The task force concluded, and i quote, it is critical for the National Park service to show a sense of urgency in ensuring that all employees are working in an environment free from unlawful harassment. Task force developed a fiveyear action plan with nearly 30 year recommendations. So correct deficiencies within handling complaints and improvements. And Sexual Harassment prevention. However, the Park Services own admission, by their own admission, few of these recommendations were ever implemented. Obviously, there were folks that did not consider it to be that important. They did not feel a sense of urgency. So that Task Force Report was filed away, put on a shelf. Gathering dust. Ignored. 16 years later, the Inspector General has issued a report finding and i quote, the evidence of a longterm pattern of sexual a harassment and hostile work force environment in the grand canyon district river district. 16 years later, the Inspector General has issued a report finding and i quote, a pattern of harassment. Involving a Law Enforcement supervisor at the Canaveral National sea shore. And 16 years later, allegations have been made at yosemite and yellowstone National Park about hostile Work Environment and even sexual exploitation. Todays hearing will enable is to hear from the park service with regard to specific measures. It is plenimplemented to insuret all employees work in a facility where Sexual Harassment is not tolerated. The agencys culture work force supports and reflects the diversity of our nation. I want to hear about the specific reforms that the park service has implemented to insure that all complaints are handled in a fair timely and thorough and consistent manner. I want to hear about the reforms that are implemented to insure that the disciplinary process holds consistent and fair discipline across all Park Service Facilities and cannot be abused to retaliate against employees who file complaints. And yi want to hear about the reforms that bring the equal opportunity employment in compliance with the model program. In ms. Martins prepared testimony, she wrote and i quote, with steadfast resolve to Work Together and confront the serious and subtle misconduct issues we currently face. We will set the north star for culture change for the National Parks district employees. The commending of parks employees, im confident we are on the right course to reflect longstanding patterns in retaliation for park service patterns. I thanked them before, but i want to thank them again, because theyre not only here about themselves and things they have seen but theyre trying to make sure that the park service is a place to welcome generations yet unborn. However, to make the changes that clearly need to be made we have to hold the Park Services feet to the fire. 16 years ago, there were those that sat in these same chairs and tried to hold feet to the fire. But apparently the fire was not hot enough. Well, were going to have to do it again. Im continuing to hold hearings on the park Service Every 99 days, until all employees feel safe coming to work and reporting this conduct whenever and wherever it occurs. As i have often said from this committee during the Committee Hearings when i see things that are not right, i often say were better than that. And we are better than that. And i want to thank our witnesses for coming forward to help us get to where we have to go. With that i yield back. Thank the gentlemen, i will hold the record open for five legislative days for members who would like to submit a written statement. For now, well welcome our witnesses, michael reynolds, deputy at the parks service. Ms. Kelly martin is the chief of fire and aviation management at yosemite National Park, of the National Park service of the United States department of the interior. And mr. Brian healey, Fisheries Program manager at the grand canyon National Park, the National Park service and the United States department of the interior. We thank you all for being here. Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will need to be sworn before they testify. So if you will rise and raise your right hand. [ witnesses sworn ] were going to be pretty lenient, if you go over five minutes you will be just fine. Your entire written record will be submitted as part of the record. Mr. Reynolds, you are now recognized. And you have to make sure you turn it on, but bring that microphone very close to your mouth. There you go. Thank you. Thank you, chairman chaffetz, and the ranking members, thank you for the opportunity to update the steps that the department has taken to update at the grand canyon National Park, as well as the broader national incidents. The cases in grand canyon and the National Park service presented us with clear and undeniable evidence that we must begin our investigation as we make to the protection of the nations most extraordinary places. On behalf of the Senior Leadership of the National Park service and on behalf of the 20,000plus employees who are outstanding employees, i share your disgust with the behavior outlined in the reports. In response to the allegations the Leadership Team at the National Park service has committed to making longterm and substantial changes at the agency to stop Sexual Harassment and to insure that every employee has a safe and respectful Work Environment. This kind of change is neither easy nor fast. We will need to develop trust and respect among our employees, visitors and congress to make the changes that are very necessary. This hearing today is one step in that journey. Prior to becoming Department Director in august, i worked for 30 years in similar capacities. My focus has been accountability and Performance Management and change. As the new Deputy Director i am personally committed to providing a work place of transparency, inclusion, respect and accountability my main maki this a place for everyone to work, we want to become a model agency. Ill start by outlining the specific actions weve taken at the grand canyon and c canavera we have appointed a new superintendent, closed the river district for now, taken actions to hold employees accountable for misconduct and acted on 18 items and recommendations in response to the oig report. At canaveral, we have removed the director from his duties, who has been accused. Moved the superintendent, and initiated the action for the misconduct. The employees have received Sexual Harassment training sessions. Nationally, were working with the department of the interior and to change the culture, some including mandates for all employees to district the specific issues. And the staff to support the work force, the professionals, new reporting options, which includes a hot line which will be operational within weeks. The service is independent and confidential for employees, a servicewide work force harassment survey to be conducted later this year. An eeo office that reports directly to the director, and the initial support for their critical work, updated guidance, equal Employment Opportunities and discrimination diversity and a mandatory 14day deadline. These efforts will be insufficient without a longterm plan to fundamentally change the culture. The culture change begins with leadership commitment and accountability. And sustained ongoing training and employee engagement. In our centennial year, the leadership has focused on what we want it to look like in the second century and are committed to transparency and focused on the accountability. Thank you again for inviting me to testify before you today. Im happy to answer any questions that the committee may have. Thank you, ms. Martin, youre now recognized. Chairman chaffetz, ranking members, i was requested to come before you today with regard to the misconduct with the National Park service. My name is kelly martin, the chief of Fire Management at yosemite National Park, i have been in my current role ten years, prior to that i worked for the Forest Service for 15 years. I have 32 years of distinguished service for the american people. My testimony provided for this hearing focuses on management diligence to address this misconduct over the course of my career. My motivation for the statement is the culture created when leaders of our organization fail to take disciplinary action and hold perpetrators accountable for their action. It is not without note that the majority of people working for the park service, its an honorable and noble profession, myself included. Im here today to tell you my story but more importantly regarding the testimony of dark clouds of misconduct that is not seen in the public view. When i began to work in 1984 as a College Student i was sure, i found my dream job, working with others in the importance of public lands and improving resources for the american public. Imagine for one minute being 20something again. We have an idealistic view of the world that is equitiable and just. My ideal was soon shattered when i became the victim of Sexual Harassment, not once, but three times. One of my perpetrators was repeatedly caught in voyeuristic behavior, before his recent retirement. This is very difficult to come before you today. As a matter of fact, this is the first time i have come out publicly to describe the painful scars of my past in a hopeful effort to eliminate these types of experiences happening to young women entering our work force today. I did find my own way to push past these experiences and decided to prefer my opportunity for career advancements, my experiences would go unreported until now. This is a highly personal decision a woman must make and it is almost always an embarrassing, arduous situation to endure. What brought me to testify today is due to a hostile Work Environment at Yosemite Park where dozens have come forward to report gender bias and favoritism. While not rising to the notoriety of the harassment, it is unlikely confined to one park like yosemite as you will hear today. The time has come to recognize the hostile Work Environments that affects employees on a daytoday basis in our agency. All members of the team that allow it the subtle overt nuances of hostile Work Environment and diminishes the full potential of most valuable resource. The people who cared so deeply and their desire to reach their personal and professional as pi rations. We owe this to our men and women who Current Resource challenges. As i walk through my 32 years of service i want to leave here today with a strong conviction of hope. Hope for the future generation of park service conservation that will not know what its like to experience Sexual Harassment, sexism in hostile Work Environments. Hope for National Direction to encourage engagement of women and men to recognize behavior patterns. Hope we can identify misconduct and take swift and appropriate action against perpetrators. The agency has many great men who will come forward to be champions of womens contributions to encourage and support equitable Work Environment. To women who are hopeful that my full written testimony will be the catalyst thats needed for change in our culture that is acceptable to everyone. Thank you for the opportunity Current Situation and Park Services dire and needs immediate attention to ensure future generations of employees have access to workplace free from harassment and hostile Work Environments. I will be happy to answer any questions you have at this time. Good afternoon, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I hope the information that i share will provide additional insight into the full scope of the Sexual Harassment and Work Environment issues and the efforts of the National Parks address misconduct at the park. The vast majority believe in the mission are hardworking, selfless and willing to cooperate to meet management goals. Nevertheless as this committee has seen in the office of Inspector Generals reports on the previous preva zif conduct there are exceptions. My testimony today may anger some of my coworkers and managers. Based upon on my speercexperieny fear, safety, numerous protections in place for whistleblowers. Thus im using caution how i characterize these experiences to protect the privacy of individuals. I know this committee is particularly in findings of misconduct by the oig. I can report on the progress of 12 of the action items. First, in august, a Boat Operator that was implicated many of these Sexual Harassment incidents has been reviewed from this position. In addition, training sessions were held to address Sexual Harassment and reporting of confidentiali confidentiality. It provided training and the agency is making progress on development of hotline of reporting harassment, however some actions did not have the desired impact, by shutting down grand canyon districts and contracting, we learned that we had limited ability to problem vote operators for ensuring work as contractors. In addition, innocent employees that have worked at the river district may be negatively impacted by having the duties changed. We could have avoided this uncomfortable situation altogether if they were held accountable for their misconduct. Remains in the chain of command and river District Supervisor was assigned to chief raker position at another mark. The this appear to be a promotion to grand canyon employees. The individual and deputy superintendent and distribute related to victims of Sexual Harassment to the perpetrators which is a violation of regulations and potentially put the victims safety at risk. Despite reasonable and Cost Effective alternatives the forced my work group to continue to work with the river district which will become hostile Work Environment in 2015. Its not limited to the river district nor have all the issues been addressed. Beginning in 2013, i reported multiple instances of bullying and threatening behavior by members of the trail crew and Program Manager to superintendent, deputy superintendent and Human Resources staff. Examples included retaliation by some members of the trail crew, directed toward an assault victim that reported assault for Law Enforcement. The confidentiality was breached and she was labeled with an expletive by members of the trail crew. The witness was later allegedly threatened with violence on two occasions. According to those involved, it appeared that the managers did not follow through with appropriate investigations, in some cases made excuses for this behavior. Investigation into these incidents involving the trail grew which occurred in 2013 and 2014 was finally initiated in 2016 by the region the findings have yet to be reviewed five months later. Years of unchecked misconduct by the river district and some members of the trail crew and termination of two employees that had reported Sexual Harassment and had employee morale and perceived work by safety. They remain fearful. Ive heard the term, i was afraid to report harassment because i feared retaliation countless times at my seven years at grand canyon. Reporting is discouraged. I was told deputy superintendent viewed me as a winer and my own supervisor lower my performance rating due to brians problems to river district and trail crew. In closing, our new superintendent is improve the Work Environment for all employe employees. This summer the Regional Office received almost 100 complaints or concerns related to workplace issues at grand canyon. Cultural change is difficult and will take time. The retention and promotion of managers are perceived to be implicated may continue which will discourage future reporting and harassment and challenge employee morale and leadership. I sincerely hope that this testimony will lead to continue positive change and agency, thank you. Well now recognize the woman from wyoming, one of the most beautiful states perhaps, second only to utah, one of the more beautiful ones in the home of one of our most treasured National Parks will now like mr. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Were primarily focused here on grand canyon and yosimity National Parks. It seems that more problems are popping up in the system. Mr. Ren nalds, are you aware of allegations by bob hester of misconduct among employees at yellow stone National Park. . Yes. In an article published just before labor day weekend, mr. Hester alleges that there was Sexual Harassment and exploitation as well as retaliation by supervisors at yellow stone, the article mentions allegations also financial misconduct, you know, who is currently investigating these allegations . The ig, Inspector General. Have they begun interviewing witnesses . The last information, as i understand, is they have not, but they have an arrival date of september 27th in the park. When was the outside investigator scheduled to begin interviewing . I had a first phone call around september 3rd, and i believe the following week, the week of the fifth superintendent dan wade began to put together the right mechanisms to bring an independent investigation team. One of the things that concerns me, mr. Chairman, about this is that in instances where the superintendent of a park is not implicated in the charges or the allegations of Sexual Misconduct and then attempts to investigate it or initiate an investigation quickly maybe the ig stops the investigation thats going on. I think that this was the case in yellow stone where superintendent was beginning an investigation and bringing in outside investigators to do an independent inquiry and was prevented from doing so because the ig was brought in, there by, delaying the opportunity to obtain statements while peoples memories were fresh and potentially providing for opportunity for certain of the alleged perpetrators to retire how do we protect the information thats being brought forward. At the same time, make sure that these investigations are conducted in a timely manner. I agree completely with your concerns. One of our new policy shifts that alluded to in my testimony that im doing is to establish these thirdparty investigation units that would be able to swiftly go in. Im going to recommend a 24 to 48 hour turn around once we have a report. Superintendent had begun that process. I would like to have further conversations with t