library. this evening i am pleased to introduce our guests author carrie kay. carrie kay greenwich, who will be in conversation with dr. nikki taylor. greenwich is the mellow assistant professor in the department of studies in race colonization and diaspora at tufts university. she is an author of radical black radical the life and times of william monroe trotter, listed by the new york times as one of its top picks of 2019. the book, the first biography of boston editor william monroe trotter, written in nearly 50 years. the book we see the mark clinton prize in history, the massachusetts book award, and numerous other awards. black radical was, also shortlisted for the stone book award from the museum of african american in boston in the cundhill prize and the plutot award for best biography. greenwich received her doctorate in american studies from boston university. in addition to black, she is author of the grim grimaces the legacy of slavery in an american family. her writings have appeared in the massachusetts historical review the radical history with you, the new yorker, the atlantic and the guardian at tufts university. she also co-directs the african-american trail project. dr. nikki taylor is professor of history and chair the department of history at howard university. she has published four books, one entitled brooding over bloody revenge enslaved women and lethal resistance to slavery, which will be which will be released in 2023. please welcome that. the greenwich dr. taylor. dr. greenwich. i loved this book this book. really was just so well done. and it really is timely. you know, it's just breathtaking research. it was just beautifully written and i came away with such a respect for how you were able to weave together so many stories and biographies and places and, you know, ideologies. so for those who don't know, i would i would hope that you would just start telling us who the grumpy are, who the who the family is, and why they matter to american history. oh, well, thank you so much. and before i get started, i just wanted to say that you were one of my intellectual idols. i read so many of your work when i was graduate school and so wonderful, wonderful. so thank you for being here. i always by saying the grim keys were during the early 19th century, famous the supposedly selfless act of the grim sisters, angelina and sarah graham keys, the daughter of, one of the wealthiest, slaveholding families in the antebellum south. sarah angelina grimke ended up leaving their home in charleston, south carolina, in the 1820s to become anti-slavery and women's rights activists in philadelphia, their biggest claim to fame during early 19th century was their public disavowal of as well, their belief that white women and specifically white slave holding like themselves had an obligation to fight against slavery in south. in 18 3038, angelina grimke younger of the two sisters, spoke before the massachusetts state legislature becoming. the first american born woman to do so. she spoke out against slavery and the gag rule in congress against slavery petitions, anti-slavery petitions. and she also spoke about the need for women to take an active role in politics. they or angelina intermarriage with theodore dwight weld, who during the early 19th century was one of the most famous white male evangelical abolitionists, very famous for for staging something called the lane rebellion at the lane in cincinnati, partnering with evangelical anti-slavery activists, going the burnt dover district in upstate new york and ohio. founding schools, etc.. so angelina married theodore weld, and by 1840, theodore angelina grimke weld and her sister sarah weld had retired to their home in new jersey, where they opened up a series of schools that were very, very popular amongst abolitionists and reformers. so they educated the children of william lloyd garrison for instance, the children of the child family, lilliam rivera child to be your child's family and so that was the story is the story that most people are taught about the grim kids a famous biography was written about them in the 19 early 1970s by the women's rights activist gerda lerner and the story is connected to that story. but is missed by historians or is categorized somehow separate from the white story. is the story of the key sisters black nephews. they had came from a family. the grimm sisters of over ten siblings. one of those siblings was named henry grimm, and he had three sons by an enslaved woman, nancy weston. two of those sons, archibald henry grimm king and francis james grimm, became phenomenal leaders, reformers. the term at the time was race men. during their time period, archibald became and was a graduate of harvard law school and eventually became ambassador to what is now the dominican republic. and francis was a graduate princeton theological seminary and eventually became pastor the most exclusive black church in d.c., the 15th street presbyterian church. archie married and had his own daughter, who became a famous playwright, author, literature of the early 20th century. angelina wilde grimm, who directed, wrote and produced an anti-lynching play called rachel, which appeared in the 19 teens. and so why this family is significant. that's sort of a mouthful to get into right. why this family is significant that they illustrate in mind the tension americans have between their slaveholding past and the implicate asians that that has and that plays in the present and the family also is a microcosm of how that legacy impact this african-american and the ways that they relate one another and the ways that they relate to politics, the way they understand blackness, the way they understand their social obligations and that that legacy is twofold. right. it's it's the legacy of enslavement and the violence of enslavement and, the legacies of black women who were sexually exploited and raped by white men. and the children and families that are produced from that. and what does that then do to black and black ideas about blackness itself? thank you for that. i mean, i really appreciated the fact that you brought those two sides of the same family. for the first time. and i think that is one of the things that's one of your biggest contributions there are a lot. there are multiple concerns, actions that you make to several of history. but that is one of the ones that i appreciate most. can can you tell us a little bit about your sources? because, i mean, i was taken away by the depth and the details of your research, and i was like, where did she get this information from? mean you had conversations and both sides of letters and so what were your main historical archival sources this so this book. well i as i was telling you before the biggest source was marlon spingarn at howard university or warren spingarn is a treasure in terms of the arc material they have on african people letters family stories is a lot of what i was able to glean about the family the details the grim brothers enslavement from archibald graham, his deathbed conversation with his daughter, which she wrote herself. so there's like that. it's like 40 pages in her own hand of writing as he's dying and she's dating it every day that she's talking to him. and so than spingarn at howard shout out to howard was wonderful in that when i started research for the book, i took about three trips down there in person and then of course covid hit and i was know, devastated that i wouldn't be able to finish the book and i went down and i ended up getting the person there before they had to close scanned like hundreds and hundreds of pages for me to look at. so that was that was amazing. and, and howard, just these boxes, you know, of, you know, letters, the young angelina, all of her friends circle, and then the letters between the brothers and a letter from the brothers and their aunts and the letters between all of the graham family contacts and talking about their lives and, being able to really see in real time, sort of chronologically the way that the grandkids talked publicly about themselves. right. and then the same very same day, because they wrote talking privately what they're really thinking about, what their writing publicly, which was fascinating, being able to see. so that was the main treasure trove. thank you, howard. wonderful, wonderful. and then the clements library at the university, michigan has the grim. q well, family papers and so that was literally going in and looking at every single letter that the graham key women every single letter that their children wrote, every single letter that angela angelina's daughter, sarah, her husband, who a pretty prominent minister in the midwest, all the letters he wrote to other ministries, his wife's family. so those two were the biggest the biggest sources, of course, in charleston, the records, the institute down there and sort of the slave in charleston themselves, the grim key, white family up until about 1815 when the father, after he got ill kept meticulous records about their holding and about the slate people in their house in relation to their own children. so they owned hundreds of slaves and. what was amazing was the silences. we were talking about before, the way that they didn't name and talk about all the hundreds. they they enslaved. but the way they talked about enslaved people in their house, the relationship sort single enslaved people had with their own children. and that was very, very meticulously kept in a way that i hadn't seen in sort of other sources and slave slave records and sources. and so that was that was a huge know source of source as well. one of the things that the reasons why it's good that you brought these two sides of the family history is that you talk about the grim cases there's activism and do such an amazing job of bringing in black women abolitionists and their activism and being right there lockstep with the group grim sisters and so can you talk a little bit and share with the audience about black women right there? people like? mariah steward, the 14 sisters and the purvis women, and how they were right there at forefront in philadelphia and beyond in the abolition abolitionist struggle. yes. so one of the things i wanted to that was clear to me both in my last book and just in terms of research for this book that the white graham kitchen sisters, when they arrived philadelphia, stepped into a world of black activism that been there for, you know, going on 50, 60 years at the least, in terms of recorded resistance and the black community specifically and had their own churches. they had their own anti-slavery. they were very militant in terms of their protecting another from slave catchers coming into the city. and so when the white group sisters to philadelphia the letters and talks they would have amongst themselves about kind of coming in and rescuing this black community was was disingenuous to say the least. right. because they're stepping into a community where the black community have been doing that work for, you know, decades. and one of the families that's at that was at the head of that was the fortune family. james fortin was a wealthy sale maker, one of the wealthiest black men in sort of the early american republic. he has his own brood of children who have lived in philadelphia and children and him and his community are, you know, protesting the american colonization society. there, rescuing fugitive slaves make their way into philadelphia and trying to then go into the pennsylvania countryside. they're meeting with the mayor when there's this series of violent riots against the black community. and so the grimsley sisters came to philadelphia. they go to quaker meetings and their approach, the sisters approach, was that they are coming in to rescue. right. the black women's response to the sisters specifically the maps. douglass family, which was a leader, a leading family, and the fort and women and the purvis women, well, were very adamant that the sisters were coming into space that was already an activist. and so i really wanted to ensure that and point out that that was where that what gave the white family sisters the audience for the activism that they were producing because the black community already been doing it. and i also wanted to show that francis james graham key one of the key white family sisters nephew black nephews into the fort and family, his wife was charlotte fortin, who was the granddaughter of james morton. charlotte fortin was an extremely bright sort of intellectually black woman growing up in philadelphia. her mother had also been the product of a relationship between a white man and a black woman in north carolina. and so charlotte fought and was born and she absorbed this black this black activist tradition. and she absorbs that. that's what informed charlotte fenton's own activism. she becomes the first black woman to graduate from a state normal school, which was the teaching college in salem, massachusetts she then became the first black woman to write for the atlantic monthly. she goes down and she teaches freed people in the sea islands. and so i really to say that and point out that, you know, that's the root of the activism, that is creating the possibilities for the abolition that the grim sisters of embrace. right, was the black community and specifically the black women who are that right. and the black women are also pushing the gender notions right about what women should and shouldn't be doing right. exactly. and the forgotten women and perverse women are pushing the limits of women's rights activism at the time and also pushing the of of male facing activism at the time. and they're the ones who are, you know, the petitions that are going around and schools. they're the ones who are creating the foreign women create a black school that was like sort of arrival of black public schools in the city of that are employing black women teachers and educating other generation this new generation black free people. so i really wanted to and sure that one of the things things that this book does is really places these communities and these actual black people at the center of intensely very right. so digging in a little bit talked to you about this earlier, the colored elite. yes. okay. the black elite. but at that time, they were called the colored elite. can you talk to us little bit about a, how they became elite and what are some of their characteristics what are their political commitments to the black community and stable? is this community in terms of their economic stability? well, one of the things that was fascinating, you know, there's been a lot of work done upon this, like jacqueline moore and people have come before who have done work on the black elite willard gatewood. but really wanted to delve into what is a human cost amongst amongst a black community that has always had a elite upper class. and yet how sustainable is that long term given, the long term effects of sort of a racial capitalist system in which black people are actually the bodies that are encompassing the capitalist system. right. and so was it enough, for instance, for james fulton, be this wealthy sale maker who is his children to become artisans in philadelphia. yeah. and then the economy changes and sale making and and shipbuilding shift and james fought and because he built fortune himself cannot rely like white sale makers did on white family wealth. and so by the time he died, most his money was gone. even though he had amassed, you know, a huge fortune. and i found that kind of b carrying from know the early 19th century, up until the early 20th century, this black elite that had at one point and in some instances an economic they were comfortable the grimm brothers become, you know, economically comfortable in washington, d.c. and the instability of that, given the racial economics of the american. what does it that what does that actually mean in terms of the economic power and political power and then how does that translate into how they relate the black masses, people who are not part of that elite, how they are created is is complex and each region of the country kind of emerges from a different genesis of kind of this black elite. but one of the things i wanted to have in the book was this idea that much of this black elite emerges from the. 18th century sort of first generation of freedom free people who managed to become free, but also the legacies that being black women who were sexually raped by white men and, the children who are produced by that right. and then what does that actually mean to have, you know, wealth but we know wealth isn't just money, other things, right? having money having cachet. and then can you actually pass that on right. and what does that actually look like in a family? right. right. over over long period of time. and then for this work. i mean, i was really shocked in the book to see what happened to. their wealth, you know, this is really shocking. the difficulties of holding on to black wealth but what about proximity whiteness what what did it what did they gain having that proximity to whiteness either genetic proximity or in terms of you know, even the two nephews proximity to the sisters had what of advantages did it offer in 19th century society? so so huge advantages. so that the advantage was is that the grimm brothers, for instance, through their so the grimm key brothers are raised charleston, their mother, nancy weston, is enslaved in charleston until end of the civil war. her sons, once their white father, died. the grimm key family, white family, basically cast nancy weston out to live herself and support herself. so she's she's working, doing laundry. she's related to a free black family. but she herself was not. and so as she's raising her black son, she's raising to believe in this colored elite, as she called them, the colored who are her relatives, who are free. and when the civil war ended and of course i did the book on the brutality of their their experience with their half brother and the boys are in their early teens. nancy weston, who herself not meet her right make sure that they attended the local friedman school and through that the boys made their way to new england. eventually their way to lincoln university, an became sort of astounding students were written in the national anti-slavery standard and that's when the white drinking sisters read about them in the newspaper. in 1868, the group sisters saw name wrote to the boys asking know, are you related to this family? the boys said yes. and the sisters promised that they were going to assist them in any way that they find. and so initially, that proximity to the grimm sisters ism was a very a material boon for the grimm brothers. it ended up paying for them finish at lincoln. the grimm key sisters eventually pay for archie to harvard law school and eventually start this correspondence with the brothers about, you know, how they should, what schools they should apply to, where they should live, what career paths they could take. so kind of become mentors to them. and so that proximity in a material way at first is, is a positive thing. on the other side, the issue what do the grimm sisters see in that relationship, given the way the grimm sisters see black saw black people right. and so one of the things is that they the way the sisters approached their mentorship, as they would have seen it, did their black nephews, is constant criticism, right? not accounting for the fact that the grimm brothers were enslaved by their own family. so at one point, the grimm key brothers, their mother, nancy weston, is still in the hospital in charleston, right. still working as a laundry person, still pretty poverty stricken. and the grimm sisters never talk about helping her. right. and so the brothers are asking, what's going to happen to our mother and response is, well, you're lazy, right? you need to work harder because and you should be asking for your mother to come because that's a lazy kind of way of being. and so the proximity to whiteness on one hand, like many in their class, was giving them immediate material access. the other hand it was giving them. it was constantly judging them. it was constantly forcing them to choose between the loyalty and obligations that they had to their own mother and their own family and then forcing them to kind of make a choice and. it was also, in a way, shaming them because the truth was where did they actually come from? right there. they're clearly the product of sexually coercive. so nice way of putting it relationship between henry and their mother. there was by the family. and henry was a notoriously person and nobody ever talked about that. so then my concern in the history was sort of, well, what does that actually in day to day, how do they then react to other black people who they've been their whole lives that they're different from right. how do they react when they end up sort of scaling these heights of at the very same that a majority of black people are not given the circumstances of reconstruction and violence and segregation all these things how do they then relate their obligations, exceptionalism, exceptional. right. do they that exceptionalism and say, well, no, no, we're grim kids, which is what they tended to do. right. or do they say, well, we're grim kids, but we have an obligation because. we're also westons and we're also black people who are victims of this system. we understand that slave past was enslaved past, right? mm hmm. yeah, that that was really interesting then, you know what was really disheartening was to see some of the same attitudes that the grimm sisters had towards them. they kind of mirror, mirror those attitudes towards, the masses, the darker complexion, lesser educated, poor masses of african americans. you talk about that a little bit. yes. so i, i found the way that the brothers talked in their letters about the black community that they very sincerely to serve much like they're they're they're white supremacists. so this is like this was not saying aha gotcha. they were not actually sincere. they sincerely believed much like they're white on what they are doing is they are race men. they use that term at the time. right. they are sacrificing themselves for the race. they're running a church nursery school. archibald is working at the westborough state for the insane and ensuring that african american patients can be admitted. there. they are founding the naacp. they're doing all these public things. and yet the way that they talked about and about black people, the masses, black people who they referred to as you, darker skinned in these very disparaging terms was that those people were less than that those people were not like amongst exceptional right and that their job as the exceptional ones was to lift them up. and so it's kind of this enactment of what does kind of this idea of a talented 10th a racial uplift ideology. what can it actually if you're considering as a black person closer to kind of the white oh whiteness at the root of that was it purely color ism or was it just that they felt they were just not enough, you know, respectability or was it a mixture of both? i think it's a mixture of both. think it was colourism? i think it was a mixture. it this idea of respectability all costs so much so that there's these these letters that go through the brothers about criticize using black dc because and blaming black -- dc as they called it of course themselves are black, but accusing -- dc of losing clout amongst white dc because too many them don't present themselves well in public. and these are real conversations they're having amongst each other. and frank is having his congregation. and so it's colourism it from the fact that their whole were built around a necessity. nancy was raising to think of themselves as exceptional because how was she supposed to raise in the shadow of the graham family in the horrendous sort of circumstances in charleston? so what hope if we look at somebody like the grumpy sisters, we see that, you know, these are well meaning well-intentioned whites, white women who are abolitionist, who have taken in their nephews funded their education. you really taken them their homes, but yet they still harbor these deeply prejudice ideas. and sometimes even peddled in racist tropes and stereotypes. so what hope do we have for alliances if we look at people like that in they failed at this project? i mean yeah. yeah. i would say i would say the the hope i think it comes from black communities themselves and that the work to be done by the grimm key sisters might have been to confront and challenge the violence that was occurring in their own home in a very real way right and so perhaps that was where the fight lay right? perhaps, you know, it's sort of like back in the sixties when people would say by 1965, 1966, stokely carmichael, perhaps white people going in their own communities and working with those communities where, racism and the horrors of it lie and the real sort of deliverance or hope for black communities is the entirety of the black community itself. and what that community actually needs and wants. and that might mean that it's not people who are the heads of the churches or the heads, the the school, the black school board might be the actual majority of the people who are in the community. so i took that as the as the lesson and that seemed to be the theme from like the 1820s up until the 1930s was that when the black community looked to, talked to actual black the majority of black people in the community about what it is that they needed and wanted, and, you know, all of these things, that was where you could make a step forward, right? as opposed to dictating what those people want. right. which is very kind of paternalistic way of thinking. right. and and on the other hand, what about lessons that we might gather or gain as a black community from the so called color to lead in terms of activism, terms of, you know, reaching out to, you know, other classes of our community yeah. socioeconomic classes have. yeah, i would say think we need to understand that no amount of black success unfortunately is to get us all out of right out of racial mess right. there's no i mean, one of the things, as i was writing this book was, you know, it was sort of like, oh, why can't we just talk about black success and, you know, so and so became the first black billionaire and as historically just that hasn't done that hasn't delivered people the mess of racial capitalism right that's that's never that never done good for the community historically and so what would it mean to envision something different where we don't make that the kind of the goal and we don't make that kind of the a marker of success right because from a holistic and from a historical standpoint that's actually not that's not doing much and it's actually pretty shallow as we see with the grim kids by the time they die, they definitely didn't have as much of the wealth right they had at the beginning of the 1900s, not through any of their own. they can't be the economic times changed. great depression happens. the grim kids that more than most black people in. dc but that's a huge blow to like the black, middle and upper classes and then slowly build it up again and then come to what, the seventies and eighties same thing happens. and then 28. yeah, same thing happens, right. and so we to sort of look beyond kind of this exceptional. yeah, very good. you so much. we'll have time for audience questions. yeah especially in the ukraine please bring to microphone. i know it's rainy and cold thank you for coming. hi, my name's lisa. can you hear? yes, i think it's fantastic that you had access to so much information and so many letters because through history we oftentimes about selective being destroyed and the ones that people want to seen be seen. so based on everything that you got to see, if you were take all of your knowledge and look at the grim sisters and paint a better picture of what they could have done, they could have been and i realize this is an opinion, but what what would you would have made them better? and more effective to everyone. well, i think that i think that in a way, as the white sisters story, the question should be why and how that story has come to influence the way we ignore kind of culpability of white holding women within the institution slavery. and so what could the sisters have done i mean, i go back to what would it have meant if the sisters when they went to philadelphia responded when there's a huge anti-black riot right outside their door three blocks from where they lived, and they never talked about any that. right. so what would it have meant if that was where they started their activist and many of the people who were rioting were they knew. right. who are going in and tearing down black neighborhoods and burning down. i what would that have meant if that's where they began from? what would it have meant if their stories of enslaved people in their household and the grimm sisters disliked slavery? obviously. right. very sincere in that. but what would it have meant if when went to philadelphia, there was some process by which they tried to help relieve the hundreds of people who were still enslaved, who they saw being horribly and. i mean, one of the images in the book being horribly disfigured and, abused in their own household. right. what would that have actually look like? i think i think part of what tends happen is that. activists, particularly anti slavery activists at the time, tended to see black people not as people, but as victims. and as a means to an end in terms of redemption and reform. and so what would it have meant if they actually said we were slave holding white women, we're coming to philadelphia, one of the blackest cities in the country at the time. so it's not as if they're coming into a space they don't know. there's black people who free and actually said, what does the black community actually want? right. as opposed to and listening to the black women who they see all the time. and they go to they go to a quaker with one of the women who is segregated in the back. the grim sisters have no response right to that kind of circumstance. even as they're writing their their amazing. right. what would they respond to that? so i think that that's where the the grim key sisters disconnect comes from. and the disconnect of many within their own class from was that they were very, very eager to encounter black people as victims, as that famous daguerreotype that was made in the in the 1830, you know, images a brother with the ends up raised. that's a very comforting image in a way. but what happens when black people come into the room? they have opinions of their own and they want to start their own schools with their own. right. and they say, no, no, it's not strategic to us. actually, a real process. process of liberation. right. that would it would have looked totally different right if that had been the as opposed to concentrate on the redemption of themselves in white women, which is where originally lot of their anti-slavery thought came from. yeah. yeah. name is jeffrey. that was a fabulous talk and i look forward to reading the book. if i could i'd like to ask two questions. the first has to do we mention was made of black abolitionist women and baltimore's own frances ellen watkins harper. was there any connection between the grim case and frances harper then? oh, go ahead. and secondly, just to get that in and then i'll set the this has to do with the grim quai brothers. where they have come down in the 1890 and 1900s. and the whole struggle between booker washington and the more accommodationist policy he was advocating and w.e.b. dubois. and they're more activist radical policy. he was advocating for advancing black civil rights. where would the grimsley brothers have down in that whole and the larger political debate going on in the black? well, thank you for your question and good question. so, frances ellen watkins harper, the fortney were phenomenal organizers, abolition, so they knew frances. ellen watkins harper. they knew her uncle watkins, who was an activist both in baltimore and then helped sell black newspapers in philadelphia as well. so they knew each other. how deeply like a friendship became. i didn't find evidence of that but they definitely knew each other. they went to the same antislavery meetings. they corresponded with one another. charlotte fought once. she went to salem actually read and correspond ended with frances. ellen watkins, who was, you know, the premier black poet the time. so a big connection between the two. so the grimm brothers were both well, first of all, archibald graham key was friends with the person. i wrote my first book about, which was william trotter, boston. archibald graham was a political independent, so he was one of the first to advocate the black people needed vote. race, not party, was kind of the slogan at the time and not be beholden and tied to. the republican party ended up voting and organizing black northerners around the democratic party and that's how he got his position in the cleveland through that he was connect. he was friends with dubois. he was also friends and in contact with booker t washington i in the book i sort of point that that dichotomy in that that we tend to think of between t washington and w.e.b. dubois was not kind this rivalry we think of as like loggerheads. they never never the twain shall meet. they didn't talk to each other they did talk to each other all of the sort of schools of black thought within this moment, except for trotter, who i wrote about in my first book. right, who had a was was that was he was a radical at the time but all of these people talked and conversed with one another by the time got to 1905 and 1906 with the. brownsville incident, texas, many members of the black elite began to question booker t washington's allegiance to accommodation ism and in his public accommodation and ism by this point, archie had been helping booker t washington facilitate a scholarship for tuskegee. so even though publicly, archie was critical of booker t washington and also critical of dubois in some behind the scenes are all working together in terms of this group of of of black people that i talk about. so the the that kind of that being some type of contest or disagreement between was not as pronounced as say in another community like in boston, which i covered, which there that was a huge issue was booker t washington the black community in d.c. and in this particular archie was friendly with. booker t washington. booker g. washington attended at 15th street prison presbyterian often he came to d.c. and stayed with francis graham. often when he visited the city, even francis graham, key advocate did for the acp. so that's kind of a fascinating thing that, you know, i talk about both in book, in the last book was kind in the ways that what we think of as being these camps were in constant with one another. good evening. thank you for doing difficult research to bring about such an interesting book. i had to questions. i first heard of mr. archibald graham key when i was reading the book white lies about walter frances white in acp i wanted to know you ever find research data that the graham keith sisters had any kind of with harriet tubman or william still and what what came about there there was any findings there. and i also wanted to know how come the grim key had the name graham key instead of their mother's name. so. oh, an interesting question. so, so nancy weston, according to her son, nancy weston, could neither read nor write. i always preface that this is according to her sons recollection and recollection of. family members who were the westons was that nancy was adamant her sons. colored westerns as she called them so that sort of free family but that they were grim kids as well and. there's a lot of sort of historians who have done a lot of work on that. there's book by chakrabarti meyers. that's forging freedom. it's about free black women, charleston and how they kind of negotiate their lives within this sort of very racially and, sexually violent charleston at the time. and so she was somebody or nancy was somebody who definitely saw around her, particularly her own family, black, who had to become or negotiate freedom through their relationships with white men. her own sister, lydia, had sons with a family called the cardozo family. and the cardozo family were slaveholding family. but they sent the black women. they had children with to the north. and so that that those women and children lived free. right. even they weren't legally free. and so all of this to when i was of piecing back why she would call her children grim key was that she was concerned with and grew up and lived a world of charleston in which the possibility of claiming the grimsley name. there was a possibility in this world of charleston at the time that they could become like the cardozo, in which the white father eventually realized that he had these sons, that they were getting older, and he sent them right. and those sons then had a different life than living in charleston henry graham. he didn't do that. right. we know he didn't do that. we know, given all the evidence, that he probably wasn't capable of doing that. but as a mother with three sons and one of the things i found heartbreaking about, nancy weston, was that she had a child before. and that she was sold with that child. and we don't know what happened to that child. right. and so given that fact, just as a mother, what do you tell your sons who are living and existing in this world? their cousins are actually living as free and some of them end going north and they have white fathers. right. what do you tell them you might as a parent. right. again, this is speculation, given the evidence. you know, it's a pretty you know, i would say it's a very accurate one. right. could be that, you know, you're giving your children these hopes and, the idea that they can escape what they're in. right. and so the grimsley brothers, by the time they got to lincoln, they were everywhere, by all accounts were, you know, very proud, very well read. i hate using that term, but, you know, they they could read, they could write, they could recite. they were, you know, southern gentle little gentleman, which is what you want them to be, so that they could at least imagine beyond their circumstances. and so she succeeded in that they were grim. but, you know, part of the legacy of the book is what's the legacy of that? right. how actually free were they when we know they actually weren't free until the end of the civil war? i wanted to know there was a connection with the group sisters. mm hmm. tubman says she was an also and would still in the other abolitionists were in philadelphia at that time. so the movie still good friends with the fort and or with the purposes were intermarried with the fort and the white graham sisters except for three of the 14 women didn't have a lot of contact with black abolitionists people in the field and by the 1818 3918 40. they are all intents and purposes retired from the public because. angelina had children and she had very trying pregnancies and so basically lived in new jersey with her sister, had her own children, was our children. the central library open in the park and the central library all the fact that the name and the grumpy sisters, i would say, knew about obviously knew were still involved with abolitionist circles. they still talked to, you know, harriet beecher stowe and elizabeth cady stanton. they were educating those people's children, their house in their in their school. and they had some of the descendants of the still family as black students. their school their school was integrated. but in terms of like a relationship, in terms of of abolition with, say, the stills and the black abolitionist harriet tubman, there's nothing specific like them having a specific relationship with them. by the time you get to the 1840s and 1850s are are they give you your questions. thank you for this remarkable work and i can't wait to read it. let's carrie and nikki, a warm welcome to warm applause. thank you. hello. i'm from the wall street journal, here to interview nouriel roubini on his new book which all hold up megathrust. might rhyme a little bit with megatrends, but i think this is got to maybe darvi