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Test test test test test my father was a very, very successful farmer and dairyman. And he was never a poor man. And never worked for a white man. Owned his land and plantation, and there were three families who lived on our plantation who worked the land. But he was what i guess people call wealthy. We could never say that. And we were taught that if you ever bragged about anything you have i would disown you. Now, i grew up in a home my father built in 1923. 10 rooms. And an indoor bathroom in the country. He and his brothers never worked for anybody except themselves. And my grandfather came out of slavery, i guess, with enough land to give seven of his children 100 acres apiece. And they were all adjoining each other, except there was a white man who lived with a black woman and had 12 children whose plantation a joineddjoined one side of my fathers. They were not married, but they lived together. And they had 12 milano children mansville children. But my father had a dairy and he shipped 40 gallons of milk every day to craft plant in uniontown and kraft cheese. You know kraft cheese, well, there was a kraft plant. They said he was the best farmer in the black belt of alabama because of his success and what i guess people call wealth. But we couldnt talk about it because his philosophy was if you have more, god has blessed you above others, its because your blessing is to help others and not brag about it. So i grew up in perry county but we were not dependent on anybody except the lord. And my father did well, did extremely well. Oh, and we went to Selma University. It its still in existence. Our president was a graduate of Brown University and his wife was a graduate of Overland College. My third grade teacher was a graduate of Overland College. And our teachers were educated in the best schools, but back then they werent paid anything. They taught for the love of teaching. And i was determined that if i ever had a daughter that daughter and she was musical or interested in music that she would go to Overland College because of the influence that i had in high school. And i must say my oldest daughter went to overland and graduated with her degree in music and voice and then went on to boston conservatory to get her masters in voice. She now lives in germany. But that was from that influence at my high school. That took her to overland, because i was determined that a child of mine would go there. My son seated in front of me, kwame kwame, i wanted to go to brown. His daddy took him to brown looking at colleges and i kept waiting for everybody. Students were getting their acceptance to different schools, and his father took him to williams williams, and, well, westlands he took him to three schools i know brown, williams and somewhere else because i let him take his son to look at schools. When he was a senior at pace academy. And i kept waiting for this response because the other young people had gotten answers from their schools, you know from their applications. And my godson had gotten his answer from brown. And i said, well kwame, why havent you heard . And his response finally after i just kept running my mouth and running my mouth he said, mama, i didnt mail it. I said what . He said, i didnt want to go to brown. Im going to williams. He didnt mail the application, but i was going to send him to brown because dr. Lincoln had gone to brown and his wife had gone to overland and he wouldnt mail the application. So he went to williams and he graduated from williams. On that note mrs. Abernathy, i wanted to ask a question. What was it like being a civil rights leader and raising children during the movement . Oh wow. You had to be strong because you were mother and father. My husband was gone all of the time. And he was home primarily we knew he was going to be home every saturday and sunday. Because he was traveling with you know, all over the country with the movement during the week. And i had a son and two daughters. So you had to be strong if youre going to raise children because you have to be the disciplinarian. My husband never hit a child. He balled up a newspaper once but he never hit a child. So i had to do all the punishing. You know, you sit them in the bathroom, shut the door. And make them turn their faces to the wall and all that. You have to punish them because you had to be in control. And if you didnt have rules and regulations as women and the man is not there, they would walk over you. They would walk over you if you didnt stand your ground. Because they were determined, too, and you had to be strong. Because it was a lonely life of sacrifice, really. You had responsibilities. Thank god i had help for a time. That was one of my requirements when i married. I had to have help, because when i married, i had help. And i told my husband, somebody will wash my clothes and somebody is going to clean my house. I am not going to do that. Somebody does it now and somebody is going to do it when we get married. So i had that understanding and i have a fulltime housekeeper. And that is one thing that helped to make it easier. Yes . Is in perry county . No, its in selma. It was a religious school. It was baptist. [ inaudible question ] at the time it was founded my mother went to that high school. Selma university is where Prince Charles also went. Yes and his wife. Its very Prestigious School back in those days. The teachers are very well educated. And like i said before they taught for the love of teaching because they certainly were not paid that much. But they were excellent teachers, excellent. Well well trained. And they had a broad vision of the world so those kind of things were instilled in us that you could be bigger. You could be anybody you wanted to be. And they you know, they were strict. You had to do it. You had to learn. And i thank god for those experiences. It was a boarding school, yes. You were there through grammar and elementary. I entered at five years of age. I want to follow up with the question of how did it feel coming back to selma in 1965 as a civil rights protester having spent so much time there in school . I knew the city insideout and knew the people. My husbands sister went to Selma University two of them. But i knew the community, and that is one of the reasons why we went to selma. To go to registration was zero in selma. And we went to selma to start Voter Registration because they were giving them a fit. And people just trying to register, they were not going to have it. So thats how we went to selma. And our march was to demonstrate the fact that voting is important. And thats why we marched from selma to montgomery. And we marched those 50 miles. Im kind of curious. So there is a selma march museum, there is the museums on the site at the beating of the bridge and the state archives and stuff. Have you taken yourself through the museums just to see how they the people who did the museum dont know what theyre doing. Excuse my grammar. The one in selma . The one in selma. Its very unfortunate. People decide who theyre going to give credit to and who theyre going to recognize. They rewrite our school. They rewrite the backs of our school. They decide theyre going to rewrite the civil rights history wait they think it should have been rather than the way it was. And they are putting into place players that did not participate, saying they did things they did not do and have put in print the names of people who just are johnny come latelies. Didnt do a thing in the Civil Rights Movement but now all of a sudden they are civil rights leaders. And they didnt change one bit. When i came to atlanta, this city was closed in 1961. My little children and Corretta Scott kings three children Martin Yolanda martin and dexter integrated the Elementary Schools in the city of atlanta. And the white area superintendent said to me he said okay ms. Abernathy, when you leave home, a friend of mine is on the school board. We Work Together for the league for peace and freedom. And she told me about the schools. And which schools to integrate. She said, you dont want to be board with the people in buckhail. You take spring street. The faculty of georgia tech send their children to spring street and the governors send their children to spring street. Youve got a more intellectual parentage there than you have at any of the other schools. You dont want to deal with buckhead. So when i called the area superintendent and told him my choice he said okay. You call me 15 minutes before you leave you call me when you leave home and i will call the principal and tell her youre coming so she wont have time to call all of her friends and have them there. And that he did. I wont call his name. And still when corretta and i got there with our three little children, the media was there. But the principal only had 15 minutes. But thats how we chose spring Street Elementary School to integrate. One other question. So when and by the way we didnt have a minutes trouble at spring street. Not a minute. Miss douglas, she got all right. She got over it. Because every morning when i dropped my little children off i would volunteer, because i knew thats what the white parents were doing. I said, ill do anything you want me to do. Im here. One other question. So when october 1960 king got sent to jail just before the president ial election for a parole violation highwaysfor his driving or Something Like that this was just before the election. What was mrs. King what were you thinking as he got sent out to the rural penitentiary or whatever it was, because he was in jail for you know he was sentenced for like four months or Something Like that. What were folks thinking . He didnt stay, but we went to alabama in 60 bhwhen that happened. They went to atlanta in 60, we went in 61. What does it feel like when your husband is locked up in jail . Well, you know, they almost knew when they were going to jail. And my husband had a little bible, you know, little red bible about this size, and he always stuck his bible in his pocket. And a few pieces of paper inside the bible to scribble on. And they arrested him in 60. That was the only time. And they always planned to go together because they could watch each others back. Ralph would be there to see what they did to martin, and martin would be there to see what they did to ralph. As a witness always. The jail would be nasty, they spat in the water and everything and shoved it through the little door that they pushed the food through in prison. They wouldnt drink it. [ inaudible question ] oh it was 20some times. How many times did you go to jail . I went prepared to go, and corretta and i had made up our minds we were going, and they wouldnt take us. I want to ask you about after dr. King is killed and the poor peoples march is going on, and all the work that your husband took up in washington, were you involved in that. Yes, maam. Stayed in that mud in washington. Could you talk about that period and just how hard it was and how what you all did for that program . It rained, it rained, it rained, it rained. I never seen so much mud in all my life, and i grew up in the country. We had mud and mud and mud in resurrection city. But we stayed there. Because we had a point to prove. And we were determined. And people played down resurrection city. But you got minimum wage because of that. There was no such thing. And we had other things that we were pushing for but out of resurrection city came minimum wage. This country did not have they called us communists when we started talking about it. The talking heads started calling us communists when we were talking about a minimum wage. What do you mean a minimum wage . Because that meant that they had to pay their workers a certain amount per hour and they were not going to do that. That would affect their bottom line. So no, no, no were not going to have minimum wage, these folks are communists. But thats when we got minimum wage. So we stayed in that mud. When i asked you about being arrested, i was actually thinking about the time of going to jail. Werent you arrested by governor maddox trying to get to resurrection city, in a caravan coming through georgia . I wasnt on it. My husband was, but i wasnt on charleston. I dont know whether they really got the wages they were looking for for, but that was when martin died. And they did get an increase in their they were paid slave wages up until that time. But i think dr. Kings death really had a great great impact on what took place. Charleston has not forgotten that. They have not forgotten that. Because, see, they didnt want charleston to you know, memphis was the doom i dont mean martin ralph did not want to stop. They protested in memphis, and martin was assassinated. They kept on. But we marched in charleston and they got a wage increase but it wasnt what it should have been. It really wasnt. And memphis, i dont think they ever got what they were protest ing ing. What martin died for in memphis i dont think they ever got that. We had hardcore people. You all have no idea. People just were not going to do right. They even downplayed the fact that marta woman died, a woman of conscious who came to make her witness known. And we had racist people saying she should have stayed where she was, she had no business coming down here meddling. She had every right to be there. Weve taken a beating, some people have. Your husband described chicago as being worse than birmingham or selma. Oh, god. In chicago i thought i was going to die. More so than the meredith march in mississippi. That was the first time in my life that i had ever marched and people had rifles. Men were on the trungsks of their cars with rifles pointed at us. And the police did not open their mouths, and they stood there and saw it. I really thought i was going to die in chicago. Because the police didnt care. And we marched through cicero and all you could hear was our feet on the concrete as we marched. And they had rifles pointed at us. They had organized all up and down the street, they had gotten together and these men had their rifles pointed at us. That was the scariest time of my entire life. Chicago, illinois. And we stayed in the slums of chicago to protest the Housing Conditions of blacks in chicago and poor people. Martin had an apartment, and corretta, and ralph and i had an apartment. West side of chicago in the slums. I saw rats that looked like little kittens, they were so big. And roaches, huge roaches big as my thumb were running around. We would change clothes in the car and put something up in the window. Martin corretta and i would change and then ralph would change. Because we didnt want to bring our suitcases inside. We didnt want to carry these roaches back home. And we stayed there for two weeks to demonstrate the conditions under which people were living. And i told him, i said, yall im leaving now. I cant take this anymore. Im going home. Because we have proven our point that the slums in chicago were just unbearable. So after those two weeks we left. But thats what we did to demonstrate the housing situation in chicago. I have a question with regard to dr. Abernathys relationship with Ronald Reagan and the backlash within sort of the black community and the sort of civil rights regard . Ronald reagan promised that ralph ralph, that he would do some sort of acts. You know, he was an actor. And they believed him even though he did not have a record of doing that. But, you know how dare anybody think these socalled civil rights folks that they can stand in judgment on what you do with your voice or your influence . Nobody walked a mile in Ralph Abernathys shoes. And who in the heck were they to decide they could question what he did . What rules did they change, what laws did they change . You have all these folks saying, they shouldnt do business. What did you do for folk . Other than take an opportunity to do an interview and criticize somebody. The folk who criticized him had not opened one door that you walked into. When i came to atlanta, it was a closed city. And the first black woman they put her in a nurses uniform with a cap over that bridge. And when we got rid of the integrated riches mr. Rich said thats what had to happen and thats what happened. She was in a nurses uniform in the infant department, and we said, okay were going to boycott richs. We boycotted richs. When we got ready to integrate davisons, which was macys branch they had the black salesgirls. But richards no. They had one black woman and they put her in the infant department. I can tell you about it now. We integrated cocacola. Everybody drinks cocacola. But it didnt just happen. It didnt just happen. We had bread basket and we put one Bread Company out of business because the blacks took their business away from them. And cocacola didnt want us to integrate them. They didnt want to integrate. But we said black folk drink cocacola, we boycotting cocacola. And we couldnt get not get Morehouse College had machines in the dormitory and on the campus. We were shocked they didnt move them, but we boycotted cocacola and thats how cocacola changed. Because all they had was men white men drove the trucks and the black man got out of the trucks and took the crates into the stores and stacked them. Those were the jobs that black folk had. And thaetts why we took cocacola first. But we integrated this city. So when anybody said to anybody, i would say, no no, no you cant tell me anybody aint lying. We paid our dues here. What was your relationship with other civil rights women such as jean wright young Corretta Scott king after 1978, on into the 80s and 90s . Well, corretta and i were friends. Our families our children grew up together. We vacationed together. We traveled across the country with our families. Jean young and i grew up in the same county, as i said before. Our children were together. And we were friends. You asked me about somebody else. [ inaudible ] they were not really in the movement with us. And i just have to tell the truth. So after the movement reverend lowry was in mobile when we were in montgomery. During the time we were integrating atlanta they were not a part of it. Have you been involved in any kind of activities . Sesc women should i tell them . Selc women was my baby. The women came to me when my husband was president of sclc and asked me to organize them and he took it to the board of sclc. Reverend lowry was the chairman of the board and he protested and said it would be like having two separate organizations. Juanita needs to come on and work with us here at sclc. So my husband said, well, im not going to have any fight over my wife having an organization. So he dropped it. When reverend lowry became president of sclc, he gave it to his wife. Thats how sclc women was formed. And its a separate organization. It is a separate organization, but it couldnt be a separate organization with Juanita Abernathy chairing and Ralph Abernathy was president. So thats the truth on how to happened. We have one last question, i think, randall, and then we need to call it off. You talked a little about your interactions with her. Ct were in illinois, for the most part. And octavia was a very nice person and a very active person until she died. She was a very wonderful, wonderful, wonderful woman. And very, very assertive but you would never know it. But because of her quiet spirit, you know, people try to ignore you if youre not vocal but because of her quiet spirit, a lot of times people dont know who you are. Jean young was very active and jean had a house by the side of the road just like i did. There was always some folk from the movement in that house and always some folk in my house. I could never tell who was coming. And every day i cooked as my mother did, she always prepared enough food so that if two or three extra people came to our home they could eat. And i always prepared enough food. Sh Everybody Knows me as a cook, and i used to resent it during the movement because i said, ive got brains. I know folks who cant read their name in boxcar letters but they can cook. So dont rellegate me to the level of a cook but i always had food so people could come to our home. My husband always felt like he could bring people to our house because i always made him feel welcome. And the discussions the strategy sessions were held in our house for every movement. They were held in my house. Because there was always in montgomery it was my house 3327 south hall street. In atlanta, it was our home. The strategist sessions were held in my house. Because i was always present. Were going to have one last question and were going to give that honor to your son kwame abernathy. Please discuss, i guess the nature of the relationship between your husband and dr. King throughout time. Okay. Good question. Vernon johns, you heard me refer to, was martins predecessor at dexter avenue baptist church. Vernon johns was my husbands mentor. And he brought Martin Luther king to my house in montgomery when he preached his initial sermon. Vernon was coming as our guest minister for that sunday and martin was coming as the guest preacher at dexter. So he rode down from atlanta to montgomery with martin and Martin Martin dropped reverend johns off at my house, and i had prepared dinner for him because i knew what he liked. And ralph tried to get martin to stay for dinner and vernon told him that, man you better stay here because where you going i know its not going to be as good as the food juanita will make. Because he knew the membership of dexter. And he told him, you should stay here and eat. But he said, no theyre prepared for me so i have to go on. But thats when i met him when martin came to preach his initial sermon. My husband had met him when he was a student at au working on his masters, and martin was in morehouse, and ralph had a date with a young lady, had made a date with a young lady and she told him she canceled the date and told him that she was ill and couldnt go to the affair. And my husband went on anyway, to the affair and the young lady appeared at the affair with Martin Luther king. And that was his initial meeting of martin. With that young lady at the affair who told him she was ill. So thats how they met when he was at atlanta university. Then they met again when vernon brought him to our house in montgomery when he came to pastor. But he knew him in atlanta. I did not know him then because i was not in atlanta. Did that answer your question, kwame . Huh . What else . I want to know the nature of that relationship. Oh they were inseparable, okay . To the point that reverend king sr. Said he could call martin in alabama or mississippi and call ralph in new york and ask a question and would get the same answer, and they would not have talked. Thats how much they were in sync with each other. He said the two thought alike and were like brothers as much as a. B. And martin were. They were friends. And ralph would have been standing on the balcony in memphis memphis but he had a tough beard. And it took him an hour to cut his beard. He had to go this way that way this way that way. And he had to shave and martin had dressed. And they shared the same room. The two beds are still there. If you go there youll see it. And he was putting on aftershave lotion when martin stood on the balcony. And he heard something that sounded like a firecracker and looked down and it was the bottom of martins shoe, and he ran to the balcony. And there he was. And he lifted his head up and held him and said, martin, this is ralph this is ralph. And he tried to Say Something ralph said but he couldnt. And one of the young men i wont call out his name was just crying and going on, and ralph did not curse. He said, soandso, get the ambulance. Its not time to cry. Well, my husband had been a soldier in world war ii. And he had a battalion in germany when they were fighting so he was not afraid you know. He was strong he was just a strong strong man. And he went to the hospital. And he and vernon said to the doctor, whatever you do to him, we are going to see it. We are going into the operating room. And they went in the operating room. They tried to keep them out, and they said, oh no no, no. Whatever you do to him, we are going to see it. And he was gone by then. As soon as they got him in, he was gone. But they were friends. They were friends. No doubt about it. In fact there was not a week that i can remember that martin was not in my house two or three times in a weeks time. Most nights on his way in, the last stop would be at our house here in atlanta and montgomery before he would go home. They were friends. And after he passed, ralph mourned. The whole movement mourned. And everybody was saying, Ralph Abernathys leadership. The leadership was mourning after Martin Luther died. It was a different time. And it was not any inferior leadership because martin didnt think about moving. Every bit of their strategy was planned because Ralph Abernathy was nobodys stupid man. He was brilliant. He was smart. You can check the school records, he was smart. So they jailed and god had it planned that way, i think. Because otherwise it would have been a rivalry. And now it galls me to see how historians, or socalled historians, have decided that theyre going to inject a jealousy. And i was telling my daughter the other day in germany. She said what jealousy mother . I said, i dont know. But now theyre writing that. Because you cant write the truth. You just have to have something negative to say. It was a movement. For gods sakes, tell the truth about it. It doesnt have to be something negative, somebody jealous of somebody else. When martin said he would take the leadership of the montgomery bus, ralph said, i support you 100 . And he did. And sclc was organized the night my house was bombed. They were here in atlanta. Thats why i was alone, staying at mrs. King sr. s house when they bombed my house. And i called her in colorado. And she got right on the phone when the house was bombed. They were friends. There was no jealousy and rivalry and all that garbage. Thats the spin people have tried to put on it because they are projecting what they would have felt had they been in that position. So now thats what theyre writing. But you have to correct those lies. I call them lies because thats what they were. Kwame, does that answer it . [ inaudible ] did you say all you wanted to say . Well, thats just whats happening now. They were best friends. Oh, yeah they were best friends. They didnt move without the other. [ inaudible ] yeah, they say he was martins lieutenant. Lieutenant . So he was less than, thats what theyre saying. You know martin had a hierarchy. But let me tell you this. Ralph and Martin Luther king were the only two people in the Civil Rights Movement who were never paid one red cent. Okay . Not one dime. And and montgomery Avenue Church paid martins salary and First Baptist church. Montgomery Improvement Association never paid them one penny. Sclc never paid Martin Luther king when he was president and they never paid ralph when he was president. So lets get that straight. Never never. West Street Baptist Church paid Ralph Abernathys salary. And ebenezer paid Martin Luther kings salary. And when they went on speaking engagements they were paid. The Movement Never paid them a dime. And they are the only two people who were not on the payroll. And Ralph Abernathy was treasurer. He signed the checks. When they were paid. And lets get it straight. They were not paid one penny. They did it out of loyalty. And dedication. And i dont know how many people that they would do that kind of make those kind of sacrifices and not be paid. Because everybody is on the payroll now. But they were not. And we did all right. My children went to school. They went to college. One of them went to oberlin. Don went to emerson. Ralph went kwaum went to williams. And from williams to pennsylvania law school. So they got educated. One of them went to oberlin to boston conservatory in drama and speech. So we did all right. But the movement didnt pay us. Thats all i want understood. Miss abernathy im afraid well have to cut it off. Thats right. Id like you all to join me. Weve been given marching orders by her to tell the truth. Please join me in thanking her to do so. Plaud plud. Thank you very much. Thank you. All weekend long

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