Costa is the agave of director of the International Spy museum, and a 34 year veteran of the veteran of defense. Previously he served 25 years in the United States army. Working in Counter Intelligence, human intelligence and special Operations Forces in central america, europe and throughout the middle east. He ran a wide range of intelligence and special operations in panama, bosnia, the first and second iraq wars and afghanistan. Colonel costa earned to brown stars for human intelligence work in afghanistan. And later was assigned to the Naval SpecialWarfare Development group. Where he served as the first civilian squadron deputy director. In 2013, he was inducted into the United States special operations command, for Lifetime Service to special operation. Most recently, he served as special assistant to the president and senior director of counterterrorism at the National Security council. Doctor hammond is a historian and curator at the International Spy museum. His interests and intelligence came from a period of service in the royal air force. With the british army and the royal navy. He specializes in military and intelligence history. He is the author of the forthcoming book entitled, struggles for freedom. Afghanistan and u. S. Foreign policy since 1979. He is working on other book that tells the story of 9 11 and the post 9 11 wars through the voice of the military and intelligence veterans. He has taught a number of institutions on both sides of the atlantic. And has held fellowships at the british law breyer the library of congress, new york university, and the university of warwick. He was a formerly melon public humanities fellow at the 9 11 memorial museum. Is currently a Public Policy fellow at the wilson center. He hosts spy casts and museums podcasts. Gentlemen, thank you for being here tonight. I am really looking forward to our discussion. Doctor hammond, would you mind starting us off by just telling us a little bit about the spy museum before we begin . Absolutely. I think you would probably be better if you dont mind me changing the do you want to set the scene for us as we discuss earlier . I can do that, certainly. It is my favorite topic to topic about. I will just say that we opened up in 2002. It was a vision of our founder, milton malt who served in the National Security agency in the 1950s. It was his vision that really brought about the spy museum back in 2002. We existed in d. C. , if you dont know d. C. , its not too far from the national mall. In may of 2019 on mothers day, we moved to the other side of the mall. An amazing hundred and 40,000 square foot building. Eight floors. Thats where we have an opportunity to tell how and why, how the techniques, tactics, procedures, the trade route that were going to talk about tonight. And also the y nations spy. Thats the heart of the cold war story in many ways. So, we are the only Public Museum in the United States to tackle espionage and intelligence from an international standpoint. From a global standpoint. We are very proud of that. We had the largest collection of espionage related artifacts ever placed on public display. That is a great segue for andrew to talk a little bit more about the artifacts in his crucial roles of spy museum. Thank you, chris. I will just share my screen. This is our new building. It is just off them all on the front plaza. One of the ways that i like to think about the spy museum, look at this amazing building. This is basically four walls. It is the collection that is inside that is truly magnificent. Although the outside, in what sense, if you want to think about this, there is Amazing Stories, Amazing Stories connected to amazing artifacts. Just for two minutes, i am going to quickly walk through a few that relate to what we are talking about tonight. This is one in my favorites. Its a silver cigar box. It is given by sydney riley, the gentleman you see at the bottom of the screen. To the gentleman at the top right of your screen. Bruce locke heart. This is probably the only physical piece of evidence connecting these two gentlemen with, a plot to overthrow the bolsheviks regime. Just think about this in the history of the cold war. Imagine if there is no bolsheviks regime. Some historians say the cold war started back in 1917, back during the russian revolution. Others, of course, have a more conventional starting point. We can go from there up to 1940. This ice axe, this specific i. C. E. Acts, was used to kill leon trotsky. The cold war was a number of things, one of the things that it definitely was, was an ideological conflict. Within communism, so, we had the previous artifact, the beginning, lennon, trotsky, stolen. Lennon dies, trotsky and stalin have a struggle. Basically, long story short, stalin want trot csu to stick around. Basically he gets killed. The next one, we can jump forward to the 60s and 70s. This is filled these truly hat. We saw a variety of different artifacts. It can be fashion you could be a cigar box. It could be an ice axe this is the heart that was used by someone that some people have called the spy of the century. Can tribly. A famous officer that was secretly working for the soviet union. John walker, this is his silver bar that we have. This is a silver bar that was given to him for his espionage activities. You see him on the top right here. He set up a whole inspiring. One of the reasons why ive included this, if you have been following the news at all in the past week, a couple that are connected to the navy are being charged with espionage. John walker was hit in part through the silver bar. This was paid with cryptocurrency. We can begin to think about the changes in espionage since the cold war up to now. And then the present day. So, these are not artifacts that we have. The cold war just bates into the president in so many different ways. Some of which were going to go into discuss. You see here on the top left. There is a connection to 9 11, alqaeda, theyre born during the cold war. The top right, you see the u. S. Joe biden, the premiers of australian uk. This is all about whats happening in the south china sea. We see that again on the bottom left here. Why is that interesting . Well, what we see now, basically almost a succession, a struggle a months great powers. It grows out of the cold war. It is a direct connection to the president and to National Architecture and what the cold war left behind. And then on the bottom right, we have got the brave new world, the wild west of cyber, which we will get into. Over the course of our collection, it goes form, like i said, way back, the russian revolution. Up until the present day. Through each of those artifacts, you can enter a portal. And to a specific place and time and the cold war. That is just a rough overview of our collection. Thank you so much for the introduction to the museum. And to some of the collections here. I am going to briefly just highlight a few of the pieces from the military to lose him and library. We currently have an exhibit drawn to combat. The art of war. You can see part of it behind me on the screen. The museum is home to the largest collection of bill mauldins work, anywhere in the country. All of which is digitized on our website. For folks who might be interested, id encourage you to take a look at some point. I am going to share a few of the pieces and highlight mauldins collection. For anyone who does not know about bill mauldin, he was an editorial cartoonist at the st. Louis post dispatch and chicago sometimes from 1958 through 1991. Obviously, he covered so many of the topics that we may talk about tonight. Also, you know a lot of the main Foreign Policy issues surrounding the cold war. Of course, he is a wellknown world war ii cartoonist as well. Some of the topics that he talks about, strategic, limitation talks, the salt talks for the 1970s. He did pieces. This was done in the early 1970s. A little short clip. This was about, its about the limitation talks. You can see some of his drawings here. The nuclear arms races he saw. And then some very general topics related to the cold war. Those caught in the middle. Certainly the cold war that he saw throughout the decades. A couple more poignant cartoons as well. These are just a few of the many, many cartoons that we have in our collection that mauldin did on the cold war. They certainly reflect his opinion, as far as what is happening. Also a lot of the Public Perception about how the country saw was happening from the standpoint of the u. S. Certainly the soviet relations. So, on to our discussion. Im going to start with a little bit more of a general question, something we have not quite talked about. Doctor hammond, can we talk about how we actually define the cold war . Sure, [laughs] that could easily be a whole hour. I will give the cliff notes version. It is commonly understood as a conflict that took place at the end, between the end of world war ii and around 1991. With the dissolution of the soviet union. It involves two blocks, antagonist they opposed to another. Broadly speaking, the west, largely north america, and western europe, and the east, largely the soviet union and eastern europe. The former being democratic, the latter communist. Why is it called a cold war . Its called that in the sense that general war never broke out between those two antagonistic leah post power blocs. Which meant that between them, a lot of the action took place in the realm of intelligence and espionage. That is one of the reasons why our collection is so rich. Chris has got a doozy of a story. That connects to the just a couple of brief complicating events around that. That takes place globally, it was a global cold war. It was beyond east and west. So, for mozambique and angola to cuba, to korea, vietnam it took place around the world. Even took place in the antarctic. The antarctic treaty comes out of the cold war. It took place in the north pole. Because the shortest route for the continental Ballistic Missiles between soviet union and america was the north pole. The whole world was in mashed with in the struggle. I think another couple things to say, as i mentioned earlier, some people say it begins earlier. Some people say it because it never quite went away. I just gave you the conventional understanding. The other thing to say, the war was very hot. Some of those places that i mentioned earlier, many people died. The cold comes from the United States and the soviet union for example, not engaging in general war. Which would involve Nuclear Weapons. If it had happened, we probably wouldnt be here speaking about it. Probably not. So, thank you for that. And thats a great explanation. Obviously, as you mentioned, there are a lot of specifics. Theres a lot of that happened. So, ill leave it a little bit openended for either of you know. What are some of the more memorable aspects that i think go beyond those wellknown touch point . I defer to chris on this one. You want to take it off, chris . And i can join in . Just briefly, first of all, i really appreciate the opportunity to be here. I was remiss that saying that at the outset. So excited about kicking off the program, james. We are very grateful to be connected to pm and al. At the same time, i learn something new every time i listen to andrew and i learned something from you this evening that i really appreciate. All that said, thats a tough question but i would say that andrew got to the heart of the question of what the cold war was, how it was defined. I would just make the case that i worked early on in my career on the periphery of the cold war, in places like central america. There is a war in el salvador, there were frictions with nicaragua. All fought as surrogates to a hot war. The nicaraguan regime at the time. Its a fascinating dynamic that takes us, as andrew indicated, from mozambique across the globe. Well get into some specifics of the counterintelligence fight, but i think andrew did a great job as a scene setter. All remind the audience that the cold war took place in peripheral places across the globe. It truly was global, in terms of the confrontation between east and west. What are some of the more memorable aspects that, i think, go beyond those wellknown touch points . The memorable aspects that are overlooked, i will give an interest in when to start. What are some of the more memorable aspects that, i think, go beyond those wellknown touch points . Afghanistan. I think thats one interesting parallel. Both of them feed into each other in ways which are a bit more complicated. The second one, this is an interesting example. The ak47, most of you listeners will of heard of this. The ak47 was invented in 1947, soviet weapon. It is one of the iconic symbols of the cold war, and it goes on to become an iconic symbol of the post 9 11 era. You see photos of Osama Bin Laden with an ak47. Whats quite interesting is that is now on the flag of four countries around the world. Mozambique, zimbabwe, east timor and burkina faso. Just think, thats on the flag right now. The mozambique one its interesting because there is an awesome bob dylan song thats called mozambique, its meant to be ironic because mozambique was torn apart by one of these. The final one, i think, thats not discussed that often is all of this takes place against the backdrop of decolonization. At the end of world war ii, youve got a lot of countries but nowhere near the amount of countries that eventually become independent through the period that coincides with the cold war. So, this cold war landed in interesting ways into decolonization. Just think about that, all of the european powers after world war ii and pretty beaten up, almost a whole of africa at the beginning of the cold war is under european, some form of european control. The literal states of the indian ocean, all the way from oman and yemen, all the way over and through india and into Southeast Asia ended on asia, all controlled in some level by european powers. During the cold war, that becomes no longer the case. You see the west and the east getting involved in various National Issues because theyve got a dog in the fight in vietnam or in india or in pakistan. So, thats another thing thats not often discussed. That all of this takes place against the backdrop of decolonization, which is quite wide ranging and quite profound. Yeah, and i think something both of you hit on, the fact that this is a whole, the whole world that becomes affected by the cold war. Its almost as if, really, nothing is not impacted. Or you couldnt connect, in some, way to the cold war and whats happening during this time period. So, im going to well move over tech colonel costa here and you can talk a little bit more about your personal experiences. Working in espionage and working for nato. How does what you did exemplify or relate to cold war espionage in general . Or more specifically . Yes, so, there is a story that takes us to belgium in 1992. That picture, by the way, a little tongueincheek because this program was a vehicle for me to really dig into my personal stuff and go into the storage unit and find some relics of my past. And i discovered this, so i wanted to share with everyone that i was truly young once. This takes us back to 1992. I think the story im going to tell is a metaphor for the cold war, and i think we will close the circle a little bit on the discussion of the cold war with some of the points that andrew made, to include the possibility for a nuclear confrontation. Back in 1992, i was assigned to belgium as a young counterintelligence agent. So, i arrived in belgium and my mission was to detect, deny, deter, to investigate the possibility of espionage directed against the supreme headquarters allied powers europe, shape headquarters. Thats a mouthful. Thats a few miles away from nato headquarters. I was responsible for, as an operations officer, with my colleagues, to conduct investigations and to ensure that we didnt have spies, in short, operating against the military headquarters. We had to work closely with 16 partners in those days there are, more now, nato partners. We worked with the cia services of those other 15 countries. So, it was much about liaison operations, it was much about operations, as ive mentioned. This was a post 1989, post wall coming down environment. So, when did the cold war and . In many peoples minds, it ended when the wall came down. It ended with the soviet union broke up. But for many people in nato and belgium in particular, who were assigned their, peace was breaking out all over the place. It made our jobs in the counterintelligence realm so much more challenging, because everyone wanted to do things like partnerships for peace and host soviet school to nato. We were going much more slowly, much more deliberately, because we are Counter Intelligence people and were suspicious by nature. All of a sudden, much to our surprise, immediate story broke about a spy that was at the heart of nato headquarters. The spy was purportedly code named topaz. Somewhat mysterious, we started putting together the pieces and we realized there was an investigation, a sensitive investigation, ongoing at nato headquarters. But, in earnest, we had to conduct all kinds of leads, investigative leads, i should add, to try to determine if s. H. A. P. E. Headquarters was penetrated. In other words, was there a spy reaching into the heart of the military headquarters just a few miles away . In the midst of all of of that, not finding any evidence to substantiate spy activity at s. H. A. P. E. , there was an arrest made. And it was reported that a spike was arrested for espionage at nato headquarters. So, let me tell you the rest of the story, because its fascinating if you will bear with me for a moment. Topaz, as it turns out, was an individual by the name of rainy or , a former spy recruited in the 1960s. Although he was western, meant the east germans were created him because he had the leftwing ideological bent. Inexplicably, no one caught on to that end, by 1977, he was able to get hired at nato headquarters. He was an economist, he was very intelligent individual by all accounts. By 1977, he had recruited his wife, who is a british citizen, to spy along with him. Now, whats important here is he continued to take home secrets to photograph the secrets in his basement, and his office with a camera. Ill show our guests in just a moment. Thats went on for 21 years, until the wall came down. When the wall came down, his spying stopped. But he still was not revealed until, as i indicated, until he was arrested in 1993. Nato would not have known they had a spy were it not for east german defectors that said there was a spy at nato headquarters. So, i watched all of this play out, it was a fascinating dynamic for me as a young counterintelligence officer to be involved, tangentially, with the investigation. And then, to the followup damage assessment. But heres the bigger surprise, and it has to do with roughs wife, Christiane Rupp. Much to our surprise, when we went to nato headquarters to coordinate our Counter Intelligence activities with the nato office of security, Christiane Rupp was our point of contact. She actually worked in the nato offices security. She took our most sensitive intelligence secrets, in some cases at the top secret level, and she secured them, ostensibly, for her boss, who is the head of the nato office of security. Now, interestingly, we were very concerned, obviously, but we discovered that she had stopped buying years before. So, when it was revealed that topaz was her husband, she was stunned. Because she thought that her husband had stopped spying against nato years before. Because he had committed to her once the children were born to stop his dangerous spying activities. He continued it nonetheless, and both of them served time in prison. The last point, i think, is crucial to make, and it ties into the excellent point that andrew made. The postscript to the storys wraps activities may have, may have, by some judgment, averted a nuclear war. How . Because, at the time, in the 19 80s, again, to set conditions for our audience and guests, in the 19 80s when president reagans rhetoric and activities scared the soviets. We had a series of exercises, able archer and some other exercises you can google. The soviets actually believed the United States was getting ready for a first strike, a nuclear strike. And rupp, topaz is, intelligence that was provided to the warsaw pact, calmed the nerves of the soviet union. Ultimately, they saw rupp this intelligence and rupp was able, using a clandestine trade, craft just like you see in the movies, to communicate with his handlers. He was able to calm the and in some quarters, people believe that his flying, as agree just as it was, from our perspective, from a u. S. , western perspective, as egregious as it was, it calmed the soviets down and they were convinced that the United States and nato was not going to conduct an attack. The last thing i want to do, i know i went on a little long here. But i think its worth it for our audience, hopefully you can see this. I want to let everyone know that i had an opportunity because of this program to go to our archivists in our historians and our staff, and they provided me with a venus z camera, which is right here in my gloved hand. The small camera, you cant see the components of it but there is a little switch that im scared to play with, theyre a lever, that wouldve controlled the shutter speed. But whats rupp used to do with this very, not the specific camera but this model, if he used to rested on his forehead, lean over and change one document at a time while he photographed the most sensitive intelligence the west had. So, thats just a sliver of the cold war story that i wanted to share tonight. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Thats a great story and i think kind of segues into our next talking point, which is why is it important to study and discuss the cold war. I think, through what you just said, it really makes sense because, without knowing that story, without knowing his story, we might not understand if a potential crisis was averted through the intelligence that he was passing along. But, for either of you, for doctor hammond, from your perspective, youre writing a book oreo two books in the works. For you, why is it important to study and discuss the cold war . I mean, very many reasons, james. I think one of the most obvious ones, which has come up a couple of times is Nuclear Weapons. The vocabulary, the grammar of Nuclear Weapons, that was all developed during the cold war. During the cold war, for the first time in human history, the stakes were everything. The stakes, we dont know with Nuclear Weapons because we only have two examples take ill on and what happened at hiroshima and nagasaki where infant has moral fractions of whats available now. If there was a general war between the west and east involving Nuclear Weapons, i mean, the stakes would have probably been the future of our species. So, those stakes havent went away. Like, two and a half thousand years ago, when the athenians and the spartans were fighting, i mean, sure, its kind of interesting to study it, but it didnt affect, say, for example, the western hemisphere who won that conflict. The legacy of Nuclear Weapons, its almost along that line that the stakes are everything, its all there. So, ive just done a brief Little Research online. One of these nuclear war simulator, and i found one mega tran, for one mega tran weapon, downtown chicago, where you are, i mean, you would be gone. 100 percent casualties. Down by the water, its a great location, but he would be gone, unfortunately. The followed would reach places like detroit and flint, michigan. So, thats one nuclear weapon. Just imagine general a nuclear war. I think, within the first three minutes of nuclear war, the casualties would be where they are now after 18 months of covid. So, we are talking about really big stakes. We are still learning how to deal with that, and we are learning how to deal. Within the cold war, it was mainly the United States and its allies that had Nuclear Weapons, never seen horizontal proliferation, where more and more countries are getting Nuclear Weapons, they are on the nuclear threshold. The architecture of International Relations is struggling to try to deal with some of these developments. So, i think that that would be one of the big ones. Im sure chris has gone a few. I think one of those would be just, you know, i spoke about ideology earlier. In a simplistic way, you can say that a lot of the 20th century was about a conflict between communism, fascism, and liberalism. Fascism, by and large, the general level went away with the end of world war ii. But, you know what . The Biggest Country in the world right now, extensively at least, its communist. Thats not something thats, like, gone away, that is struggle for ideology, for how to arrange governments, for levels of individual freedom. Thats just something that is still continuing. Communism has not went away. Its not went away in the soviet union. Its not went away in china. We see lots of interest in developments taking place in the south china sea. All of that, again, is a direct outpour. We are seeing the dynamic System Training in fluctuate, and china increasingly inserting itself. Thats all within a post cold context. Chris, do you have anything to add to that . I think that was a great comment. That was really comprehensive. I think we could probably take another question. He did a great job of really capturing. No, i thought that was fantastic. You know, kind of takes us to our last question here, which innocence is one of the questions we got from our audience. You know, what implication does the cold war have for todays military, for global affairs. I think it kind of goes along with the idea of, you know, you just mentioned so many nations still with communist governments. Did the cold war ever really end, or has it become more, less prominent . Did it just shift an ideology . Did the cold war just really, kind, and with the end of the social union, and now we are dealing with something similar, you know, in a different lane . So, i will try to tackle that by saying that in the last few weeks, i believe eight russians were sent out of belgium, brussels, right . Tying into the topaz case, they were being suspected Intelligence Officers. I wouldnt say that this is a continuation of a war that i believe was won by the west. This is a new incarnation, reincarnation, if you will. What we have to be sure that we do, is learning the appropriate lessons that the west garnered during these decades, decades of fighting the cold war. We forget about the people that were waiting American Service members, waiting to potentially deploy to cuba for an invasion with u. S. Forces. Many of those people believe it didnt happen. Much of the cold war didnt happen. We didnt have a nuclear confrontation. We have to remember what we learned about Counter Intelligence. The russians are continuing, unabated, the kind of activities that they conducted throughout the cold war. Whats different, perhaps, is now we have even more capable adversaries. Andrew talks, alluded to china, right . China is the number one Counter Intelligence threat in the United States, according to the fbi. So, we have a significant amount of challenges. We have to remember some of those lessons that we learned during the cold war. I think they are going to come in handy, as we thread the needle, as we continue on this trajectory that we are on. We dont want full scale deployment of troops from the west to be engaged in conduct. We saw how afghanistan and it recently. So, the west has to reconcile some of those lessons, and we have to apply them on a new battlefield. We havent even talked about cyber. Thats beyond the scope of our discussions. All of these dynamics make a very, very interesting time in history. Yeah, i wouldnt certainly agree with you. Sort of, following up with that, i mean, do you think could you classify any, you know, of what was happening now, you know, as a cold war. You know, are we in a cold war with china . You know . Is cyberware for the new, sort of, cold war . You know, is that something we can compare to what happened . You know, with the soviet union . Oh, andrew. Yeah, i can jump in. I think the first thing, its just to, you know, say fear of the dragons. When you say, this is the cold war, thats a metaphor to use. So, i would like to just zero in on a couple of aspects of it. I mentioned earlier what made the cold war cold . Well, what will hopefully make as a cold war, what will hopefully find out will be a cold nature. By that, all i mean is that if the United States, for example, and china have a general nuclear war against each other, the planets and all of us here are going to be just as the im trying to find a diplomatic word. Not so well off, as we would be as if russia and the United States want war. So, this goes back to this nuclear dynamic that came out of world war ii. So, you know, this is something that we related just now. Theres all types of studies on, can you limit nuclear war . You know, can you use tactical Nuclear Weapons . I mean, the problem, as it quite escalates. So, people think that because the cold war, as we know, it went away, that we are out of the woods, and, you know, i dont want you to press anybody, but as people that are engaged with international affairs, that care about peace and security, to be involved for us to get through the next century. We came out of the 20th century by the skin of your nails. Well, i am going to, sort of, i think that, you know, we are having a good discussion here about, you know, where does the cold war take us today . Can we talk about whats happening today, as a cold war . I think, as you said, we dont know. We hope it will be a cold war. We hope there wont be any escalation with whats happening. But, to take weve got a number of questions from our audience, which are great. If you have any others wrong here, anatoly david, the soviet ambassador to d. C. For 25 years . Whats sort of a role did he play . Ever heard thats a historian question, if ive ever heard of one. Yeah, he was an interesting figure. I think he was there from the cuban missile crisis all the way through to the late 70s. Ive read a number of National Security council memorandums, where he was a participant. You know, so yeah, really an interesting figure. You know, i guess one of the roles, roles that diplomats play, the people like the Russian Ambassador play, you try to maintain some calm, some level of communication, some level where you can Exchange Information by the public, or through back channels or back doors. Its communication. Its trying to make sure that events are in some white managed. So, i think that he is, you know, he is a great example. He was there for so long. You, know thats not really something that you see in the state department, someone kicking around for such a long period of time, which goes to the nature of the soviet system, i guess. Sure. This one might be another question for you then. What role, if any, to immigrant communities, particularly from places like estonia, latvia, and lithuania play in politics . Do you want to take that question . I am going to take it. I am not going to talk about the baltic states. Maybe you can think about addressing that, if you can. Im not an expert on the baltic states. I want to use another immigrant community as an example because weve talked about it. We tell the story of chemical bees and his espionage activities. Kim filthy spied for the soviets, used reportedly a loyal as i asked, secret Intelligence Service british officer. He was actually providing for many years secrets to the soviets. He had access to the closest guards, guarded secrets here in washington d. C. And the heart of the cold war. He was the liaison. During his liaison activities with the young, very young cia, cias post cold war oppositional planning ways to send albanian emigrate back to albania to overthrow the regime in albania. About actor, clearly, and enemy of the United States. That was the first post world war ii covert action. The communities were integral to building a capability. Now, unfortunately, many of them were killed when they went back to albania. The operation was an abysmal failure. This applies back to kim phoebe. Evidence suggests that him will be compromised those operations. So, thats another example of not necessarily political observations during the cold war, but ramifications. It wasnt a hot war. It was covert action. It went fairly bad because of the treasury of kim phoebe, from a western perspective. Now, the baltic countries were also a bit of a battleground, but i dont have enough expertise to really talk about those countries in particular. Maybe you do, andrew. Yeah, i think that, yeah, i think one of the main things to say, would be just to go back to our discussion on the cold war, the communities were important, especially on a multi cultural country like the United States. Think of the Cuban Community in florida, some other states. They are usually important. I think that for the United States, thinking of the future, and thinking about intelligence and espionage, for human intelligence operations, you need people that can blend anywhere. One of americas strength, i think, and i am saying this obviously, you can tell from my accent, as an american, is its diversity. If you go to queens in new york, its the most diverse place on the planet. So, those emigrate communities, i think, during the cold war, they were part of, you know, america, and its possession in the world. The president , where we are in the moment, they are part of america and its position in the world. They were really of interest and in the dynamic of american and Foreign Policy. I was going to say im going to follow up on that and imagine that those communities were also probably would be more scrutinized. Because of the fact that, especially during the cold war, where was their loyalty . Who are they loyal to . I can imagine that, certainly, chris as you mentioned, espionage and intelligence gathering really pays off. Becomes that much more important, to know who our people and waited their loyalties lie. Thats exactly right. Counterintelligence is really the bedrock of these operations. And operational security. But youre exactly right, its a double edged sword. You have emigrate communities but its also widely known that many of the communities, during these covert actions we alluded, to where penetrated by the hostile Intelligence Services. We know that weaker communities across the world are being penetrated by china, because china fears exactly these exact activities. Somehow the uyghurs are a threat to china, so they have an active program to go at them, then being communist china, to go after these emigrate communities. So, again, the more things change, the more things are the same. There are lessons we can learn, but good Counter Intelligence is a start. And we learned an awful lot about that during the cold war. I think that kind of takes us, maybe, into a final question that we have time for. With intelligence agencies working together, do you see it as being extremely important . Do you think now intelligence agencies are sharing more information to prevent espionage . Does it seem like that something that theyve learned, but coming out of the cold war, that only through this interactions amongst each other that theyre able to pinpoint and then prevent these types of activities . Ill just jump in on this, to say to the public, private cooperation, ive never seen it stronger. I believe the fbi, theyve established several task forces specifically focused on Counter Intelligence and also counter this information. I forget the exact title of that specific task force, it almost doesnt matter. But the point is, you cant build these task forces without having a relationship with businesses across the United States. It is absolutely crucial. So, i will just tell you that i am in touch with people that do that work and i am very pleased to see that that trajectory, its very important, because Counter Intelligence is going to be the coin of the realm in this next incarnation of a cold war. Whether its a new one or an old one. An old roy dressed up as a new one. Regardless, its important to recognize that cooperation with the private sector is absolutely crucial. What do you think, andrew . Yeah, a couple of thoughts there. I think the first one would be, you know, if we think about what weve discussed tonight, james. Lets blast through all of that and bring it back under control. But were talking about here, basically, is a process of globalization that has taken place over the course of the cold war proper and more recently. Technological developments, globalization and all of these different types of changes. One of the most useful shorthand definitions of globalization is space, time, compression. So, space and time are compressed. Think about George Washingtons ancestors, how long it took them to cross the ocean and how long you can cross it now. Time is getting compressed, spaces getting compressed, Nuclear Weapons are a great example of this. And i think that, with intelligence, the world is being fused and knitted together even closer, through digital, through cyber. We are all connected up to the grid. Think about this, at the beginning of the 20th century, before the invention of the airplane, the front lines where the front lines. When the airplanes come along, then they could bypass the front lines. Nuclear weapons do the same. If you want to think about where we are now, all of us are on the front lines now. The front lines of information and intelligence, to go back to chriss point, are no longer the pure preserve of the government. Every citizen in this country probably owns a computer or a smartphone or Something Like that. Their computer is able to be penetrated, they are on the frontline. So, its a different dynamic. The front line is extended, its much broader and, to go back to chriss point, this means that government in traditional intelligence agencies cant do everything. Just a couple of weeks ago, on the museums podcast, we had an episode where we are talking to some people from microsoft. They have a Threat Intelligence center. So, just think about the amount of people in the world that have a microsoft operating system or a pc or a, ive got word open on my computer right now. So, microsoft are, for example, are in meshed within this in a way that companies werent necessarily before. Sure, you can help to develop aircraft and your blueprints could get stolen or Something Like that. But now, the front lines are much broader and it requires a different type of approach. That goes back to the public, private aspect that chris was talking about and ended or two ago. Yeah, no, i think thats great. I think that sort of a great, maybe, and point for us this evening. Do either one of you have any final statements, final takeaways, last little bits that youd like to add to our conversation tonight . Yeah, i do. First of all, james, again, thanks to pmml, this has been fascinating. And for the record, this is the first time andrew and i have had an opportunity to do a program together. So, thats it, its been a lot of fun. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I want to leave with a positive note. So, i want to offer this. Prior to were some major bureaucratic changes and how we approached intelligence broadly, and in particular counterterrorism. In the counterterrorism, the enterprise, in the United States and with our foreign partners, did an extraordinary job of keeping the United States safe from a 9 11. And i am here to note that our foreign partners were instrumental in that. I believe that the lessons we learned, if you follow my logic, with 9 11, will carry over to what andrew just talked about, to that cooperation. We know, as a nation, we cant go at it alone. We cannot do that in the intelligence realm. So, we learned that with counterterrorism and we built up and enterprise to keep this nation safe. Similarly, i believe the lessons that we learned from counterterrorism will cross over and bleed into the Counter Intelligence front, into the intelligence front more broadly. So, we have already embraced lessons learned. We can be critical, and we should be self critical of where weve been, particularly on counterterrorism. But at the same time, i think those lessons, the work done by intrepid Intelligence Officers across the planet, right . Im talking principally about our western partners, right . They have done an extraordinary job. So, i thank you for the opportunity to share some thoughts. Thanks, chris. I think, for me, just really briefly, yeah, its been great to speak to you. If any of our listeners have never been to the pritzker, i would highly recommend going. Its in a great location, if you like military history its really awesome. They have a great library, you could go in there and sit and read a book for a bit. And also, of course, come to the spy museum if youre around the washington area. But i really appreciate the opportunity. I think the final thing that i would say, just for people that are viewing this, would be for those that, im sure im kind of preaching to the converted to some extent here, but this stuff is really important. If there is young people watching this, engage with international affairs. The stuff really matters. Like, think about the pritzker, i was there not long ago and there is an exhibition on world war i. World war i is pure International Relations. World war ii, pure International Relations. This is the nation nature of the world. Apart from another country. So, this involves the whole world. Ive got two great uncles that lion foreign lands because of world war ii. This stuff really matters. The faith of humanity is on the line. So, please engage with international affairs, think about careers in it and do what you can to make sure that we get through the next century. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, those are fitting words, i think, to bring our program to a close this evening. And thank you to both of you as well, and to the International Spy museum. This was, i think, a great conversation and i really appreciate being a part of this. Thank you, also, to the International Spy museum for their support with this program. And thank you to the Pritzker Military foundation, on behalf of the Pritzker Military museum and library. If youd like to make a donation to either or both organizations, of course wed be happy and very grateful to receive them. Thank you all for joining us tonight, thank you to our participants for being here. And please keep an eye for future programming. Thank you very much. Thank you, james. And science. All right, so good afternoon and welcome today. Were going to talk about cold war era Science Education films in particular ones that were made for tv and the classroom now weve been talking