Transcripts For CSPAN3 History Bookshelf 20151018

His experience in world war i. Good evening. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to barnes noble bethesda. We are delighted to have marc wortman with us this evening. Mr. Wortman is an awardwinning journalist and the former editor at yale alumni magazine. His book the millionaires unit is about a generation of privileged young men prepared to risk it all to fight a distant war in france. Driven by the belief their membership in the american elite required certain sacrifice, they led the way before america declared formally to join the war. The bulk of this group, the Yale Aero Club, became the first squadron in the u. S. Navy air reserve. The press dubbed them the millionaires unit. Without further ado please join me in welcoming mr. Marc wortman. [applause] well, thank you for coming out this evening. Thank you to barnes noble for having me. This is as many of you know a home coming of sorts. Having grown up in bethesda, it is wonderful to see so many old friends here. Especially today on the 39th day out of the 40 days and 40 nights of rain. Its been an extraordinary deluge here. Now, please pardon me if i refer to notes occasionally. Im much more used to writing to people than speaking to them. About 10 years ago i went flying with a group from yale, the yale aviation club, founded incidentally by fred smith, who also went on to an illustrious flying career. He later on founded fedex. The members of the club at yale told me they had a significant history of forebearers who established the first flying club. I went looking into that and found out about a group that formed the Yale Aero Club back in 1916 and that became the first squadron in the u. S. Navy reserve. Then when the u. S. Went to war, in world war i, became the nucleus of the navys air force. These were 19, 20, 21yearold boys. The members included the navys first and only air ace of the war, the creator of americas first Strategic Bomber force, and many leaders in the creation of an air service from practically nothing. Now, this group after the war proved to be crucial in the rise of usair power. And in many ways, and the rise the creation of the u. S. As a super power of the world. Out of this group came every single assistant secretary of navy and war. This was before the department of defense for air through world war ii and the secretary of defense during the korean war. Effectively American Military dominance and control of the sky came out of this group. The Group Continues to have a resonant role in america because they have very close ties to the bush family and president george h. W. Bush told me that this group had been an inspiration to him in becoming a navy aviator in world war ii. But this list of accomplishments just scratches the surface with this group. What really grabbed me was when i read the letters of kenneth mcleish, a member of the group, to his fiance during the war. He was, like most of the boys, the son of a very welltodo family, but in his case his father had been a selfmade man. He had emigrated to the u. S. As a teenager from scotland and came here chasing a woman and dreams of a fortune and he got both. After his first wife died, he married an educated woman from old connecticut stock who raised many bright, strongwilled children infused with their fathers scotch sense of romance and desire to make good. For instance kenneths older brother Archibald Mcleish would go on to be a famed journalist, statesman, librarian of congress, and threetime Pulitzer Prize winner and also a harvard professor. So kenny and archie, i learned, were in many ways typical of this generation at yale and in many of the Ivy League Schools of the pedro. Their group, their circle included young men like colt porter, dean acheson, future secretary of state, averil herman, future governor of new york and cabinet member, and other future leaders in many fields. Yale and the other Ivy League Schools still produce leaders, but theyre very different places now. And the types of leaders who come out are very different as well. Back then yale was much smaller. It was all male. It was mostly wealthy. It was almost entirely was p wasp, and a very High Percentage of the students came from multi generational lines at yale. For instance the mcleish brothers on their mothers side were the fourth generation of the family to have attended yale. Truly they were part of an american aristocracy and one that still sends many of its children into power in this country. They were also part of a very powerful campus social system that motivated them to achieve and to be recognized. In their day what they had was, what they tried to show was they had something called sand. That was something they spoke of because of the grit that used to be thrown on Railroad Tracks to make the wheels of locomotives grab. But what they wanted to show was they had character. And the way they showed it was by being active in the campus society. And the reward for that was to be selected for one of the secret societies at yale, the secret senior societies most famously skull bones. And as some of you may know, i found a letter describing the robbing of geronimos grave by a group from skull bones, and that has gotten quite a bit of attention and id be happy to talk about tchaurg the question answer period if theres any interest in that. Now, there was one other very big difference at yale at the time. It was today yale is thought of as a great center of intellectual life. Back then intellectual life was not the center of the yale campus. In fact, intellectual achievement was often scorned during the period. And campus life really revolved around extracurricular activities. Most importantly, athletics were at the center of campus life. So 90 years ago, this very month, and in much of the same type of weather as we have now, two opulent yachts carried the yale crew from new haven to new london to prepare for the yaleharvard boat race. How many of you follow intercollegiate crew racing . Okay. Well, we have a couple. Three. Back then virtually everyone here would have at least been aware of what was going on in the yale harvard boat race. And that was back before major professional sporting leagues and the feeder colleges had come to dominate American Sports life. Back then they were the yankees and red sox and in their case it was every sport. 50,000 people came out to watch the boat race every june in new london lining the banks of the thames river there and in yachts that lined the race course. The following fall, 80,000 people filled the yale bowl for the yaleharvard football game. That was more than the entire population of nevada at the time and about 1 15 of connecticuts population at the time. So it would take over 225,000 people today to have a comparable crowd. While in new london actually at a training compound along the river a 19yearold sophomore who was an assistant manager for the crew team, frederick truby davidson known as truby, the son of j. P. Morgans senior partner, he told his teammates about what he had seen the summer before as an ambulance driver in paris. A terrible war had been raging in europe. It was an ocean away, but it involved every industrialized nation on earth except the u. S. In two years that war had already decimated a generation of young men who charged out of their trenches in the stalemated battle lines to be moan down by machine gun fire, artillery, and poison gas. It was the first truly mechanized war and the results for frail humanity were horrific. There had already been more deaths than all previous wars combined. In fact, july 1 will be the 90th anniversary of the battle of the soane. On the first day of the battle there were 50 british charged out of the trenches and within a very few minutes there were 50,000 casualties and in that battle that lasted for about six months there were more than 1. 3 million casualties on both sides. So trubey thought that the u. S. Was going to end up being involved in the war and he thought the place for a young man like he and his friends to fight was in the sky. That was just 13 years after the Wright Brothers first flight but the airplane was already a war machine with heavy bombers, reconnaissance aircraft, and fighters battling as much as four miles above the earth. But they did it with no parachutes and no oxygen supply. Casualty rates among flyers were appallingly high often a hundred percent. The average Life Expectancy at the front was about three weeks. In fact it was about three days. If you survived those first few days chances are you might make it through. So that was where truby wanted to take his friends. They were all for it. He enlisted bob lovett. He was a brilliant neighbor and classmate. He was a son of the head of the Union Pacific railroad, which at the time was the Worlds Largest transportation network. They convinced 10 friends to spend the Summer Learning to fly in a boat over the Long Island Sound. The group buveraged at the davisons 45room mansion along the Long Island Sound with its 57 servants. This was not what you would call a hard training mission. But the press took notice of the group. Flying was still a very rare thing and, in fact, most americans had never seen an airplane. Period. The press dubbed the group the millionaires unit. Truby davidson tried to win Government Support for the squad. He wanted it to become a reserve squadron. And they were spurned. There was one young assistant secretary of the navy who took notice of their efforts. That was Franklin Delano roosevelt. He would remember them later on, 25 years later on. When there was another war. So in the fall they went back to yale. All the while, german submarines had been attacking british shipping in and out of the u. S. Ports. Most infamously the lusitania. But there were many other ships sunk. Finally, hoping to strangle the island nation of britain, the u boats began attacking american shipping. Suddenly the government, which had spurned the boys efforts, became very interested in what they had to offer. Congress created the navy reserve and the first yale unit as it was called expanded to 28 members, became the first squadron. Of course they were expected to supply their own airplanes, their own base, and their own instructors. But with family and j. P. Morgan money, that was not a problem. So before leaving for training and war, campus traditions at yale could not simply be ignored. And one of the most important traditions there was a junior prom. The grandest ball of the year. Ill read a little section about the prom. As the long anticipated night of february 6 finally arrived the campus lights twinkled festively against the piles of snow. The grim victorian viceage of yale further darkened by the gathering clouds of war gave way to the chatty excitement and ernest selfinspection of young men and women making themselves ready like actors on opening night. Exemplifying the spirit of the day, that morning the yale daily news ran a ditty on its front page. A top hat for a students cap, a dress suit for a gown, immune from worry and mishap, well dance the planets down. The stars were in alignment as the clock struck 9 00 and the big doors to woolsey hall, which is a large concert hall that had been set out as a ballroom for the night, were flung open. Dapper young men in white tie, tails, and top hats drove from dormitories and apartments in gleaming packards, hudsons, mercers, to escort their dates and chaperones from the hotels to the prom. The lovely Little Things stepped out beneath fur coats, corseted and layered within long, low cut, silk ball gowns of unearthly hues with fur trim. Their hair was piled high with plumes and ornaments and false tresses and curls. With women basically never part of their lives except as sisters of friends and in their own family, women were truly exotic creatures to these young men. The line of autos pulled up to the sweeping curb of the grand colonnaded entrance of the rotunda lobby. Like stars and starlets at a film premiere photographers snapped the arrivals stepping to the carpeted curb. Blue and white bunting, imported palm trees, and tropical flowers filled the lobby and ball rooms. In the vast commons, which is the great dining hall at yale, which was also part of this, where the promenade was held, where the dancing was to take place, the most coveted boxes sat on platforms surrounding the dance floor. The two dance orchestras lovett had engaged for the night, markel of new york city, and dance from new haven, had set up in the balconies at either end of the hall. Markel would play the dances. Dance provided musical background during the intermissions. Soon the white, linen covered tables lining the dance hall were filled. Corks popped for the Champagne Service at each table. At 9 30, lovett, master of ceremonies for the all important dancing, stepped out in his white tie and tails and signaled to band director markel, who struck up the first number of the evening. The elegant junior and his regal new york neighbor adell brown, his date for the week, stepped smartly to the center of the floor. They danced a graceful, lively waltz to the first few bars alone and then the other members of the Prom Committee and their dates followed after them. Lovett signaled and all 47b couples stepped to the floor for the grand march. Markels strings danced them in a stately promenade through the ballroom. At the tables stags, chaperones, and hostesses applauded the elegant and passionate parade passing at a measured pace. With a nod from lovett the orchestra broke into a fast dance number and like a crazed solar system couples whirled away in their planetary orbits across the floor. Some of the chaperones tuttutted as the waltzes gave way to the tin pan alley dances like the turkey trot, fox trot, and as numbers changed new partners stepped out on to the floor. The women danced and danced. After more than an hour of dancing, lovett again gestured up to markel who sounded the chimes for supper. The crowd moved through the lobby to woolsey hall where a floor had been laid and candle lit tables set over the orchestra seating. After the supper, the dancing resumed and never stopped. Few acknowledged the breaks. Dancing couples crowded the floor all night even swinging on during intermission. Women consulted their cards and moved from partner to partner. All through the night the music, dancing, drinking, and merriment continued. At 5 30 the next morning lovett invited the remaining partiers, very few had retired, to applaud the orchestras. A raspy throated call went up for lovett and the promenade committee. The exhausted couples and chaperones returned to waiting cars and carriages. Walter camp wrote about the prom, with a lass tude that forgets the croup ld gown or disarranged hair, happy girls and their equally happy chaperones threw on their wraps and were whisked back to the hotels where they were soon dreaming over again the events of the week. As they returned to their rooms, some glanced at the front page of the previous days yale daily news. Its chilling headline read berlin not to change policy, washington continues war plans. The next month the unit was called up by the government. They were the First College kids in the country called to service. Still, life was not so bad for the gold spoon brigade. They went first to palm beach to train, staying at the breakers at the start and then renting, taking over a nice hotel. And then they returned to long island where they stayed at another resort. Once they got their wings, though, they did ship overseas or they stayed in the u. S. To build up bases, train men, test weapons, everything for a country with an air force at the time that was smaller than bulgarias. Most eventually ended up flying combat in europe. Many in the unit ended up based together. Most in the area of dunkirk, france, at the far western edge of the western front. Soon the boys were in the thick of it, flying submarine patrols and battling over the trenches or flying bombers. The results were quickly tragic for the unit. As one fell in battle the first usair combat death ever, others would follow. But the members of the group stood out. Many became base leaders. Robert lovett, whose previous experience had been organizing the junior promenade, flew bombers without parachutes in open cob pits and he also created a Strategic Bomber force. 22 years old, he soon had more than a thousand men under his command. The youngest member of the unit david engles who is now remembered at yale by the campus hockey rink, he took to flying like a hockey player to ice. He was reckless and hard hitting and maybe a little nuts. He transferred to land machines and flew with camels, the planes made famous by snoopy, and he shot down enemy after enemy. And by luck and skill managed to survive. Ill read a little section about that shows just how much luck. So he flew out with the english air ace George Hudson one evening, for one last look in the growing dusk for a low two seater. They flew over the german lines and he saw one. An old rum pleaseler. He signaled to hudson who had already turned back toward the lines. Engles dove alone but flew too fast in his first and in his first pass overshot the german machine. He circled back widely, trying to stay below the rumpler away from the observers arc of fire. Engles soared back up ignoring the tracers between the struts on his left side. Just 10 yards away he could see the two perfectly in their black helmets. He dropped back behind them, took aim, the enemy aircraft exploded. He dropped down to contour chase home. In other words he was flying so close to the ground that he would jump over hedges and trees in that way to avoid enemy antiaircraft fire. Although he flew closer to the ground ks that put him within range of the, spiteful, sharp crackle of ground machine guns with their tracers flashing by first on one side then the other. A sharp or lucky marksman could down a scout with a single, wellplaced bullet. As engles flew along he heard a burst of fire from below. His motor stopped. And gas poured out of the tank beneath the seat. A cloud of white vapor rose from the tank. His machine fell. Pulling back on the stick, the elevators did not respond. The elevators are the flaps on the tail that are used to lift the nose and raise the airplane or lower the nose and bring it down. A clump of trees loomed ahead. He switched to the gravity tank and the motor started back up. The tail heavy camel rose up and missed the top branches by inches. His troubles were not over. The motor was hitting on only six of the nine cylinders. He also found only his downward elevator control worked and his wing flaps, which are used to bank the airplane, and so that it can turn, so they responded weakly to the stick. His rudder still answered. Ground fire continued as he flew over, but afraid to use the controls, he, sat still using his rudder and his one working wing flap to make little turns toward home. He felt like he was holding his breath the entire time until he crossed the lines. As he approached the aerodrome, though, he had to figure out how to land. He could go down but he could not stop going down once he started unless he turned on the motor. But if he revved up the motor he would zoom right back up again. Finally, after rising up and falling down time after time, he sailed across the field at tree top level until he toppled down for good, smashing his landing gear in the process. His inspection of the aircraft showed the ground fire had perforated his gas tank and knocked out the wires he kneaded to go up as well as some of those to go down. One wing flap had been hit in the hinge. The wings were peppered with holes. His luck was holding and his reputation for destroying aircraft including his own was growing. He told his mechanic to prepare him a new camel for the following day. He had no time to waste and rushed to his barracks. A dance was about to begin and di gates a fellow member of the yale unit and now Commanding Officer of the american air base in dunkirk was bringing some of the American Nurses from the hospital in dunkirk. The dance would be he recorded afterwards, a good ending to my day. Nothing like relaxation from this business. Well, not all the flyers including di gates were so lucky. And ill conclude by reading a little bit of the prologue to the book. It was 2 00 in the afternoon of october 14, 1918. That was a little less than a month before the armistice, which was the 11th day of the 11th hour of the 11th month, november 11th at 11 00 a. M. So after four years of war, and a year and a half since america had entered the fight, the central powers were finally on the run. All hands had been thrown into the air to rain hail down on the germans, Still Holding their positions in belgium and france, and turned their orderly retreat into a terrifying rout. Kent mcleish could not wait goat back into the air. A week and a half before his closest and oldest friend di gates had been shot down while flying with a french squadron during a dog fight over enemy territory. Gates, who had been the Commanding Officer, as Commanding Officer of a base, he wasnt allowed to fly and he had been so desperate to fly that he gave up his command in order to fly fighters himself. No word had been heard from him since he had been shot down. Mcleish was distraught. Kenny and di had gone to the same boarding school in the connecticut countryside where the two home sick midwesterners had bonded among the clubby easterners. They had continued on to yale together and di had brought kenny into the Yale Aero Club. The beginnings of his flying career. In the intervening months mcleish had seen so many men fall with that unforgettable crunch of an airplane striking the earth. Like all men at the front, witnessing death had become a common place experience for him. But, he wrote, di was different. He had been brought up with him. Hes one of the two men that i actually love, he wrote home. His brother archie, now back in the states after a tour in the artillery fighting in france was the other. Ill get even with somebody, he swore. Mcleish had enjoyed his first taste of revenge just that morning. He began his flying day as he always did, dressed in layer upon layer of silk, wool, canvas, and fur, including the now fraying wool sweater his fiance back home had knitted for him just before he shipped out. We have to remember they were flying in open cockpits at up to 20,000 feet, so in Hurricane Force winds, so they were facing temperatures that were frequently 40 degrees below zero with wind chill factors many degrees lower than that. And frostbite was very common. A bullet hole through the sweater reminded him of what he faced. Last he sniffed the lingering perfume of the silk handkerchief his fiance had given him before tucking it away into the pocket of his flying suit. After a 15minute, Early Morning test flight, he flew his first patrol in the bright sunshine. The squadron of 19 planes went off on a bombing run against klums of retreating german troops behind the front in belgium. After dropping his four, 25pound bombs on the terror stricken men and horses, he swooped down low over the road joining in a chattering strafing line that left men, wagons, and horses in blasted, bloody heeps. His heart leaped at the sight of the fallen and fleeing enemy. He thrilled to the full out chase close enough to earth to witness the terror in the germans eyes as they looked up at him bearing down on them, dual guns blazing. Soaring back up several thousand feet, he spotted a squadron of german planes. His flight of five camels pounced. The results for the Anglo American squadron were bloody. In the ensuing dog fight the germans shot down three of the allies. Before making their escape, though, mcleish and his flight captain green converged on an enemy fighter. They machine gunned the jerelan flyer until he went spinning down in flames and disappeared among the remnants of a village in belgium. For the air ace green, that marked his 15th victory. It was mcleishs first. His first taste ofen m i blood. Returned to the base and wolfed doup lunch. His orders called for the squadron to be back in the air deep in belgium patrolling behind german lines. He flew up into formation with the 15 machine camel circus in a three bird flight with green, and an english airman lieutenant allen. They flew north along the belgian coast. In the thick, shore line cloud cover, the pilots separated and lost sight of each other. After searching for a few minutes, mcleish, green, and allen gave up on finding the others and decided to continue patrolling alone. Seeing no enemy targets, they turned eastward and flew inland several miles behind the german lines to where the cloud cover lifted. Two miles north of the blasted ruins of the town, they spotted two german aircraft flying a few thousand feet below them. Often the germans would set up planes flying low and then have other fighters flying up above who would be hidden in the clouds or the sun and when the allied fighters would attack the low flying planes they would come down and attack the allied fighters. Mcleish scanned the clouds, staring intently into the sun until he had to avert his eyes. Seeing no enemy aircraft, he waggled his wings for his flight mates to follow him down. They banked over and dove at nearly 200 miles an hour. Guy wires screaming in the wind. They came in range of the two aircraft. Entranced by the target in his gun site mcleish did not notice the counterattack until the white sparks of tracers zipped past and he caught the whif of burning cordite and heard the snap of bullets. Plunging out of a hiding place in the sun or the clouds, seven german biplanes were on top of the three fighters. A melee followed. The camels were quickly separated in the dog fight leaving them unable to defend each other. Allens plane burst into flames and spun downward. Greens followed quickly. A german scout firing into the great dog fighter as he fell slowly along with his plane, an unfurling spiral of smoke to his death. Mcleish knew how to stunt his jumpy bird up and down, snapping turns, desperate to dodge the german bullets and snake away from their less agile but faster machines. The hard charging german fighters clung to his camels tail and pushed their lethal intent home. Everywhere he looked, he could see enemy aircraft running in on him. Strings of pock marks popped through the fabric of his wings and up the fuselage. Rather than keep running, he jumped up and swooped around to face the nearest enemy. Thank you. [applause] so, any questions . Be happy to hear from you. Yes, please . Im not sure i know which question to ask. [question inaudible] what first prompted me to get interested in this subject . Well, you know, i had always been fascinated by the both by military history and American History in particular but also in the beginnings of industrialized forms of transportation, whether rail or air. So i was interested in early flight as well as war. But then i also found it extraordinary to learn about these young men who came who had everything to lose and, yet, chose to be to put themselves on the line. They wanted to be the first in battle. And the the kids now, who go to yale, well, statistically, less than 1 annually will go into the military. And as we know, were in a war now and have been in several wars in recent years, be and very few of the children of the children tend to go into the military anymore. But back then, everyone in this group among the ivy leaguers wanted to be in the war. Yale hazard a campus militia that then became a part of the original r. O. T. C. And they called for a muster, an artillery battalion, and they had expected to get a couple hundred students out. They had 900 show up. Essentially twothirds of the entire student body at the time. So i was really fascinated by the motivations of the young people then especially in contrast to what we see now and what that represented about the change in american leadership. I was also interested in the continuity in american leadership. These people who had been members of skull bones back then, who had close ties to the roosevelts, to the tafts, and to the bushs, we now see in many ways we have leaders being drawn from the same circle of people, you know, our last president ial election was pitting two members of skull bones out of the 800 living members against each other. So there was a ream continuity i saw there. There was a real continuity i saw there. Then also the fact that out of this very small group of people came truly the core of the leadership in aviation during world war ii i found extraordinary. You really could trace the beginnings of American World dominance or at least military dominance if you think that aviation serves as the principal force in that dominance. You could trace it to a group of kids at yale who decided were going to have a campus flying club and we want to learn how to fly. So those were the some of the things that took me into this. Yes, please . What is the status now in yale of the flying . Are there still students that fly . They were talking about john kerry. He was part of a group that liked to fly. Or am i i think i read something about that. My understanding is that kerry, who was in skull bones with fred smith the one who founded the current yale campus flying club, yale aviation, that kerry had also taken flying lessons with yale aviation back when they were students at yale and both at skull bones. And now the campus flying club is still active. It is certainly not a Training Ground for students who are intending to go into military flying for the most part when i went with flying with that group there was there was an israeli student who was planning to go back to israel and join the israeli air force. Yes, please . In the back . How many enemy aircraft [question inaudible] lets see. I think their totals were something on the order of about i think they downed about 10 enemy aircraft and they lost three members. There was one question in the back, please . You mentioned roosevelt. Im sorry. Could you speak up a little bit . Franklin delano roosevelt. I wonder what his role was. His role . Franklin f. D. R. s role at the time, he was 34 years old. He was every bit the aristocrat himself. He had gone to the academy where truby davidson had also gone and a number of the other members of this flying group. He inches older than the members of the flying club but he was the assistant secretary of the navy in charge of preparedness at the time. So he was actively going around to colleges and universities and trying to encourage young men to get involved in the navy. And so he knew about these kids at yale and was encouraging to them in a way that the secretary of the navy at the time was not. Although he had no power to make them an official part of the navy, which had been their desire. But he was very encouraging. And after the war wrote about how important their role had been in stopping the german u boats. And then once he became president in and when world war ii broke out, he called a number of them back to service. Most of them either reenlisted in the military or ended up being civilian leaders and, as i said earlier, two of them ended up being the heads of the both the army and the navys Aviation Services during the war. Please . Cow expand a little bit on the acceptance by the government . Sure. Well, when they approached especially, well, essentially it was truby davidson who approached the navy to try and get them brought in as a reserve squadron, and the secretary of the navy basically said, you know, its wonderful that your a he so patriotic and we just dont need you. The navy at the time had virtually no conception of what the value of aircraft could be for military purposes. They had a very small number of aircraft, one on a ship, a couple in pensacola, florida. They had no active training program, so they really had and they had i think when the war broke out the navy had 38 qualified aviators. So they the navy simply didnt understand that there was a need for an air force. And didnt see where they could be of assistance. In fact, the group quickly proved they could do some extraordinary things. They went out on a Training Exercise in conjunction with a navy fleet just as a sort of test and they spotted mines that the navy ships couldnt find because of course theyre flying way up high and they can see for miles where the navy ships on the surface couldnt see anything. And the navy found that quite extraordinary. But they still werent ready to bring them in. And much of it was ignorance. They simply had no experience with airplanes. They had no they had no budget for aircraft. And so they just didnt understand that what the value of this group was. You know . And they were also happy to let the private groups fund those. You know, the j. P. Morgan was j. P. Morgan and company and the families were willing to spend the money to support the group. So the navy said, okay. You can do that. Any other questions . You mentioned something about geronimos bones. You said you might expand on that. Sure. So in the course of my research, i came across a letter that was written from one member of skull bones to truby davidson. And the letter, it had long been rumored that a group from skull bones very likely or possibly i shouldnt say very likely. Possibly including prescott bush, had dug up geronimos grave at fort sill in oklahoma. Geronimo was the iconic native american warrior, one of the last holdouts in the indian wars. And he had died in 1909 and been buried where he had been interned at fort sill in oklahoma. And a number of people from yale during the war were stationed at fort sill for artillery training. So theres always been this rumor that a group from skull bones had dug up the grave and brought back geronimos skull to whats called the tumor the Society Club House in new haven. But there had never been any documentary proof of this. I came across a letter written to truby davidson saying weve got geronimos skull and the femurs and theyre in the club house. It was laid out quite clearly. The letter was written in june, 1918, and so this was the first documentary evidence about this. Now, there are questions as to whom they actually dug up because apparently theres not a great certainty about exactly where geronimo had been buried. But apparently they had at least thought they had dug up some artifacts from his grave. And, you know, sort of created a small scandal that actually went around the world for a small scandal and so, you know, in skull bones has been around for almost 175 years now and theyve never commented publicly about any business related to skull bones and they havent made any comment about this. Yes, please . Sure. Its really a remarkable story. Where has this story been all this time . Well, you know, in 1925 the group had a privately published history of their doings during the war put out, but, you know, i think that the this element of the, if we want to call it aristocracy has often been quite reticent in talking about their achievements. They have tended to, at least historically, they had tended to keep things largely to themselves. And, you know, its been known and there was there was actually, during world war ii, or just prior to world war ii, there was a National Radio broadcast dramatizing their activities. And in 1966, there was a celebration of the founding of the navy reserve that highlighted their activities. But it just you know, it just had sort of fallen by the wayside. Yes, sir . Kenny mcleish was my great uncle. Oh if you want some good reading in addition [laughter] to this, which i will buy five copies of, theres a story called the letters and archie, his younger brother, he has all of the dramatic flair of the language and the letters from the front to his fiance and his family. Fascinating reading. So if you want to catch up with that other part of the story that somebody was referring to, the publisher was the navy. The naval institute. Right. Maybe its in your notes. But thats another part of the puzzle. Yeah. And, in fact, those letters were really one of my initial inspirations for doing the book, because his the sense of idealism and romance and just a tremendous desire to put himself out there were extraordinary. And they come through in those letters. I also highly recommend reading those letters. Theyre also very touching. He was very much in love. Yes, sir . Can you comment on the difference in attitudes today between these young men who volunteered, couldnt wait to volunteer, wanted to serve their country at any risk and what we have today at Yale University . Sure. Or any other university. Well, the change in attitude in regard to i guess principally military service, because at places like yale theres still a desire to serve, but in many cases the desire or in most cases the vast majority the desire is to serve in other areas than the military. There was a distinct rupture with the vietnam with the vietnam war. And the protests against the vietnam war. Right up through the early 1960s, even during peace time, about 20 of yale classes would typically go into the military. And then after the draft or rather after the when rossi was kicked off campus in 1971 and the draft ended, there was an immediate fall off when rotc was kicked off campus in 1971 and the number is now down below 1 in a typical year. I think there is there are a few things that are very significantly different between 1916, 1917, world war ii, and now. One of certainly there are the wider forces in the country that have made that have raised all sorts of questions about u. S. Military involvement around the world, but theres also a distinctive change in young peoples attitudes about what advantages they could gain in going into something so dangerous as the military. Back then there affs real sense that this was back then there was a real sense that this was something that would be looked upon as the right thing to do. Not everybody did it. Not everybody went. But the vast majority of kids did. And it was something that they felt was their duty. And in many cases they had been raised in both at, you know, in the case of these kids in their prep schools but also in their families with this sort of spirit i guess we now see most embodied in Teddy Roosevelt, who was a real hero to these kids, and several of them knew him personally. Which was that sort of be the first charging up the hill spirit. When Teddy Roosevelt was, well before the u. S. Entered the war, was a big advocate for u. S. Entry into world war i. And he said, im going to go and my four sons are going to go. And, in fact, when the u. S. Entered the war he was 58 years old and he said i want to raise a squadron and go and the u. S. , the army rejected his request to enlist. But his four sons did join and his, what many say was his favorite son, quinton, was in the army air service, and he was shot down and killed. And that broke Teddy Roosevelts heart and some say that he never recovered from that. So im not sure if ive completely answered your question but i think that, you know, both nationally theres been a change and then in the character of young people in both their outlook toward military service and in their outlook of what they believe is the appropriate action for them. Young people about this book, is it imagineable these kids would read a book like this . You know, out in the blog world, ive seen a few things. You know, online. But i havent had any direct contact with kids about the book. You know, there are there certainly former students from yale who have gone into the military who have read the book and make that point that, you know, its no longer part of the ethos of the campus, of Ivy League Schools, to lead the way. Yes . I dont know whats going on at yale today but as recently as the class of 1987 the largest single employer of that class just to comment on the fact that service hasnt died, the largest single employer of members of that class was the peace corps. Okay. Yeah. I think thats that does reflect a change both not so much a change in the outlook toward the need to engage in some kind of service but where that service where they want that service to be. Im sorry . In the c. I. A. . Back well, back in yeah. Truby davidson the founder of the squadron was actually the first director of personnel for the c. I. A. Yale was, for many years, an important conduit of people into the c. I. A. Any other questions . Good. Well, thank you very much. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] announcer join American History tv on saturday, november 7 from the National World War Ii Museum in new orleans. We will explore the submarine experience, the road to berlin, and the africanamerican story. And we will take your questions throughout the day. World war ii 70 years later. Live from the National World War Ii Museum saturday, november 7 beginning at 11 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan3. Announcer coming up next on American History tv, robert inanin, curator for the art the u. S. Capital, discusses the art in the u. S. Capital painted by constantino brumidi. Congressman Justin Morrill championed the art and also had a personal relationship with the italian artist. Barbara wolanin explores the relationship and the historical significance of the artwork