we're going to talk about historic preservation. want to introduce you to jordan tannenbaum. he is the vice chair of the advisory council on historic preservation. mr. tan about what is that? yeah organization the advisory councilman historic preservation is an independent federal agency part of the executive branch. it was it is was created by the national stark act of 1966. and it's recently a couple years ago celebrated. it's 50th anniversary. it is a regulatory agency and as we will see has responsibilities not only in that area but also to advise the president in congress on matters concerning preservation policy. the regulatory section is called section 106 and that is a requirement that all federal agencies have to request the to take into account the impact of their projects of their undertakings and that's broadly construed permit of funding actual license a connection nexus in any way that they have to take that into account if they're going to have a an effect on a historic property or a potential historic property defined as a property on our eligible for the national register. and then they have to request a comments of the advisory council give the council a reasonable opportunity to comment and that's the regulatory section in their regs that implement that statutory requirement. can the council on historic preservation shut down a project legally. no, no the council cannot but a citizen could a citizen could bring suit against a federal agency claiming that they had not complied with the national stark preservation act and they could get a temporary restraining order and shut it down and require that the agency comply and however that would play out but the the council itself is advisory in nature. so as long as the council comments are obtained. however, the council may comment. the agency can accept that can look at those comments consider those comments, but then they can go forward and do what they want to do. so as long as the agency has complied with the requirements stated in the regs and the in the code of federal regulations 36 cfr part 800. obtain the comments taken into account the effect of their undertaking they can ultimately do what they want to do. it's when agencies don't initiate that process that they will run into trouble and they are subject to citizen lawsuit. well, let's go back to 1966 why that year was their historic preservation act passed? yeah. it actually was an evolution if you if i might just digress were a little bit and go back and and look at the federal government's involvement with historic preservation, which really starts with the antiquities act in 1906 that act which is still which some of it has been replaced by other statutes, but it is still good law to establish historic monuments and that's where we recently have actually many people have learned about that act but that act was resulted from a realization that at the turn of the century in 1900s. we were losing a lot of our cultural patrimony. other nations were actually coming here doing archaeological excavations and then taking it back to europe and in fact if you go back to europe, you'll find some excellent collections of our, you know, particularly of native american artifacts, then it moves along the government began to so there was a permitting section set up and then in 1935 you have something called the historic sites act and that that set up a process to identify landmarks because we were losing those two and it really realized that there had to be some protection and that leads in 66 to the national star preservation act and that was a direct result of the growth of the interstate highway system the dams and reservoirs that were being that were being built and and a realization that that progress was destroying our cultural resources. and so that led to it was actually a conference of mayors and january of 196. which came together and they looked at the problem. we need some legislation that will protect these properties of not only national significance, but local and state and so in amazing time these days particularly from january and then in october of the same year in 1966 congress passes the national stock preservation act to deal with that issue. was it bipartisan? yes, it was it definitely was yes. how many federal agencies do you work with? well, there are 24 statutory members on the advisory council 24 members eight are private citizens like myself and then we were and then the remaining our federal agencies and they include dot veterans administration department of the interior department of defense department of education and and along the line. so all the rest are all federal along with a mayor. a governor the national association of tribal historic preservation officers and the national conference of state historic preservation officers, so what are some of the controversial cases that have come before the advisory council? sure shire to today? well, the dakota access pipeline is one. i think that came up recently and as you might recall involved a pipeline that would go across a waterway that was of significance to native american tribes and that it was a core permit. there was a lot of litigation one of the things that the advisory council on historic preservation prides itself is on encouraging consultation with native american tribes. that's a big issue these days that so that was that that has gone several ways. they the courts have approved it the courts have then reexamined the permitting so that was one of the controversial areas. there are a number. cases, however that demonstrate the productive work of the advisory council and would love to focus on those two there and they're very diverse. so you have a park chicano park in in san diego area. you have the space shuttles which have been determined eligible. you have the one of the last remaining black officers clubs at fort leonard wood in missouri that was saved and and having been associated with this agency for almost 40 years. i take great pride and they do too in the in the way in which they've harmonized modern development and preservation of historic properties and and that has it's a little known story and i'm delighted that i'm able to tell it today, but it's a very important one. how'd you get involved in this 40 years ago. i started as a summer intern. yes. right out of right out. are you a history? yeah. i was a history major. i wanted to work actually international park and the only job that i was offered was at the national monument. that was not my idea of a national park restrooms. so the ladies room to left men's rooms are right, and then i learned of this agency had just been started. so we're talking about to give a little to reveal my age. we're talking about 1972 and and the agency had just really begun to hire a lot of folks start as a summer intern. i didn't know much about historic preservation, but it sounded interesting and i i joined the team about four people working. they're now 40 people that work at the advisory council with a budget of eight million dollars and a little over eight million dollars and then i was made permanent and i worked there for a decade then went on to some other areas, but i've always stayed involved with historic preservation was in the military and i did a lot of work as a jag officer. became a lawyer teaching this area and working in this area of this we call our section 106 area the regulatory area. so when it came to the military, how did section 106 the historic preservation section fit in chair. so let me explain of course the army military federal agency and section 106 requires again that all federal agencies taken to account the effect of their project on a historic property on our eligible for the register and afford the advisory council on historic preservation a reasonable opportunity to comment so they've got to comply the let's look at the at the black officers club for example that club at fort leonard wood it was built around 1942. there's actually some stone work there interesting stonework built by prisoners of war who were there during the war italian and german prisoners of war and after the war the building was used for a variety of things, but by 2014 or 2011, excuse me, they didn't really have a use for it. they thought it might be used for one purpose but no one was really interested and it began to deteriorate a little bit and there was a problem there because it was owned by the military a federal agency by the army and they have a responsibility to maintain that because it was at that point then determined to be eligible for the national reg. and that's actually the first part of these this regulatory process to see do we have a historic property? and once that was determined then they had to figure out what are we going to do? they wanted to demolish it that would have clearly been an adverse effect. and so the consultation process which is the the heart of these regulations got all the stakeholders together including by the way in the officers club. there was a mural painted by sergeant conti a very well known african-american artist while he was there staff sergeant. they all came together and they decided let's figure a way to preserve it. and it's very significant and they did after a couple of years come out with a plan. it was embedded in a memo of agreement and that building has been saved and has been actually given an award recently. well, let's look at a little video from the advisory council on historic preservations project at fort leonard wood. building 2101 was one of the original buildings constructed in 1941 when fort leonard wood, missouri was established. it was a time as segregation in the us army and the building was reassigned in 1942 as the black officers club for the seventh engineering training group. the consulting parties were intimately opposed to demolition of one of the last remaining world war two era black officers clubs working together and occupant was identified and it was determined the building would be converted into a classroom meeting and social space the mural would be preserved and repairs would be made to the 1940s era stonework masonry features built by german prisoners of war the rehabilitation of building 2101 began in 2018 and a ribbon cutting ceremony was held in august of 2018. the consulting parties used the section 106 process to strongly advocate to preserve the building and find a compatible use building 2101 illustrates how historic properties can be deductive assets to an installation's mission as well as a venue to tell a cultural history and support the larger national significance of the african-american military experience its preservation and continue to use will provide countless opportunities to tell the story of african-american army officers during world war ii to future generations. now jordan tannenbaum that project you said took several years, correct? why is that because the military had to of course it's a bureaucracy and they had to come and decide did they have the funds to restore it and how would it be restored what there are standards published by this department of the interior? they had to be met and so actually as things go two years is not some have taken a little bit longer than that, but they needed to get everybody on the same page really to get that memorandum sign in who are those players along with the federal agency? every state has a state historic preservation officer and that group was involved. the state was involved and then you had interestingly enough then the niece of the artist who was involved the involved. there's a there's a requirement under these regs that the public be involved and if the isn't that could be a issue that would wind up in court? because they regs clearly state that and and so the army needed to find out do we have the money? what are we going to use it for that process takes a while and then you're getting all these other folks the local preservation society was involved. so there are a lot of players but at the end and that's what i think this process allows sometimes people to stop look listen to to rethink. to see if we come up with a a different solution than demolition. or alteration might we come up with a creative approach and they did and that has happened in other cases, too. a case in in san diego california the chicano park that i referred to where an amazing amazing project highway that where a number of well-known muralists. latin american and mexican american rulers had painted on these on these abutments by the 90s they had become they needed work. they needed restoration and the federal highway administration came up with money under its enhancement program transportation enhancement to rehabilitate these murals working with caltrans the california transportation agency, and they are now preserved and the park there chicano park is refreshed and filling the the role that it has as highlighting mexican-american american civil rights now jordan tannenbaum you mentioned several transit agencies involved in this project were these murals to be moved because of transportation projects? no, they had just become indeed of repair. that was really it was so as it was an enhancement, but a project where a property was moved, very interesting was the gay head lighthouse in a queen of massachusetts. what was happening there? is that the lighthouse owned by the coast guard? was about to be washed away because the cliffs on which it had been built were eroding away. so something had to be done on the only thing that could be done to save the lighthouse was to move it and we're talking about a 51 foot 400-ton lighthouse built in 1856. what's gonna what's gonna happen here? the coast guard said look, we we are willing to transfer this to a private party if they want to maintain it, but someone's got to move it and we don't have the funds to move it. so what they did in the federal process too. this is any agency would take its property and transfer it to it the gsa general services administration they did and then a local group came up with the money to move this and the and the lighthouse it was saved. thanks to the work of the coast guard and the general services administration and local people coming together. it's a wonderful partnership a wonderful story of how that happened. now you refer to that as a advisory council on historic preservation success story. what was your role throughout this process? the there is a criteria of adverse effect in these regs and it's demolition by neglect. and so the coast guard by allowing nothing to happen. they can't do that. they can't allow a decision to allow to not do anything to protect the lighthouse is still a decision. so that was defined as an undertaking and they had a responsibility to take some action now, they could have tried to demolish it. but they didn't it was a landmark the local people run it to save it. and then this partnership came together, but they could not allow the lighthouse that they owned at that point to just be washed away that that is not allowed under these regs. and the council managed that process eight million dollar budget 40 people. very small federal agency. yes, how many cases come across sure the transit and some every year every year there are about 5,000 section 106 cases now many of them. most of them are settled at the state level under these regs that can happen only the cases where there's an adverse effect on the council feels that they can help. in this and and arrive at a good solution, are they involved? so of the 5,000 that come that 106 cases annually section 106 cases about 750 come to the advisory council either they elect to look at them or people ask for the council's assistance and of those probably about 200 a year 150 to 200 are being worked on by that team now. that's 40 people not all of them are caseworkers many of them do other jobs as they as with any federal agency. so it's a small complement that has a huge huge mandate. how large is the law area of historic preservation growing growing? it's a new area. i think because in many respects this is part of the environmental movement. and there are other statutes the national thing called the national brown environmental policy act that requires agencies to take into take into account their impact on cultural resources. there are a number of statutes to deal with archeology. and so this is a growing area and as people realize that they as the public realizes that they have a place in this process. i think you're going to see more involvement. hopefully hopefully not more litigation, but that is there so that that whole compendium of law has been growing yes over the years definitely definitely is your position a political position. yes, it is. also i was appointed by president obama. i'm one of the eight citizen members of the council in 2016 and i was reappointed this past june. and made the vice chairman of the of the council for another term. so i will be serving until 2025. we do have a full-time. so there is no chairman at the moment. i am the acting chairman but a full-time chairman is working her way through the process. sarah bronen is her name, and she hopefully will be taking over at some point in 2022 in the next year. if not before it's always possible like other regulatory agencies is a requirement for x number of minority party minority party in this case the republicans and majority party the democrats. no, there's not there's not so you could name eight from one party. they wanted in this case. yes, absolutely. is historic preservation political though? well, what are some of the political issues that you get into? i think it you know, there are political issues. i think in terms of some of the funding i think that that is involved the whole area of the preservation look our mission. our mission statement is that we promote the preservation the enhancement and the sustainable use of this country's diverse cultural resources and not everyone agrees with that and if you don't agree with that if you want to put in do some drilling on federal land, and there's there's some petroglyphs or rock art as is the case with with a case that we talked about nine canyon nine mile canyon in utah, then you will go political you will start getting your support to be able to do that. but again, we don't look at preservation as thwarting progress. it's really part of progress explain. nine-mile canyon. yeah, sure. i'm like canyon involved the bureau of land management blm and an energy company that wanted to do some drilling on in this area this area also has an amazing collection of rock art. it's in utah as i said and there are 10,000 areas where these where this rock art exists and it includes about a hundred thousand individual figures the issue there was that yes, there could be blm was willing to to give permits and so the federal undertaking was a permit to do some some might some mining some natural gas platforms, but they wanted to make sure that the they needed to make sure that the historic properties were properly treated the damage that was occurring from trucks going in there. the roads were just dirt dirt roads and the dust and the particles that that created was. it was destroying the rock art and so they sat down the advice. that was an undertaking giving the approving the permit the advisory council was involved and they came out with a memo of agreement that where they built a hard surface road avoided the dust and were able to protect the rock art and that was the solution in the nine mile canyon and it is worked very very well another success story. an important area for tribal rights for sure. and again, here's some video provided by the advisory council on historic preservation. the oil and gas resources happened to fall within an area that also has incredible resources water resources air resources plants vegetation, and of course culture resources, nine mile canyon is a world renowned outdoor gallery of rock arts. it has almost 10,000 rock art sites that have been recorded in the area. really know why the concentration of rock art in nine mile canyon exists the way it does but nine mile canyon being that tributary of the green river through the west haven puts plateau makes it somewhat of a natural corridor between the un to basin in the north and the castle valley down here in the south. so people have been transecting through that canyon for at least 10,000 years moving between the lowlands down here in the basin of north he's involved in drafting the programmatic agreement for the west hava puts plateau energy development. project three of those parties were signatories that were necessary for executing the agreement blm. the utah state historic preservation office and the achp there were a lot of stipulations included in the west how to puts plateau, pa generally the stipulations outlined a process for identifying historic properties as the project went forward and as it was phased and there were also stipulations that step forth ways of minimizing and avoiding known historic properties and mitigating effects to historic properties some of the identifications stipulations included literature searches different types of surveys and monitoring. there was also a study to assess the effects of dust on the rock art the controversy with the road it there no simple solution. it took a lot of effort from the blm the county it's roads department. and as well as the consulting parties on the on the pa to try and come up with a plan that would. work and it involved doing numerous things such as hiring rock art conservatives to come out and clean up some of the sites to conduct studies on what effects the salts that they're using is dust suppressants were actually having on the rock art and we just kind of moved on from there and that was decided that paving the road would be the better solution one things to remember is the national historic preservation act section 106 as we call it shorthand is a process. it's the steps the process that are important to follow through with it's not the the end result. we realized that we should have started earlier talking to these these consulting parties and and get their input because it would have gone a lot smoother and that's been one of the things that at least from the washington office we've argued for tribes and and consulting parties since then is we need to involve people earlier on in the process and not wait till decisions are being made because some of those decisions they're going to say well why and you may not have the legal up to support that if you haven't involved the groups early on. and you're watching american history tv, and we're talking with jordan tannenbaum. who is the acting vice chair of the advisory council on historic preservation. we're talking about historic preservation efforts in the united states. our state's active in this as well. yes, they have to be they require you to 50 50 state agencies plus the federal agency plus and that is well citizens. that is why the national conference of state historic preservation officers. the umbrella organization is a member of the advisory council and why the every state and every territory by the way territories have historic preservation officers as well. they must be involved in the process and they're they know their resort their state's resources better than anyone and and they are vital vitally important in this section 106 process that we've been talking about and again remind us section. 106 is section 106 is a part of the national start preservation act of 1966. it is the regulatory section of that statute and it has its requirement just a paragraph to in summary to require that requires that federal agencies take into account the effect of their undertaking on historic properties defined as properties on or eligible for the national register of historic places and that they afford the advisory council on the story preservation a reasonable opportunity to comment it has been clarified by regs in the cia and the code of frederic regulations. that's 106 given what we know about lady bird johnson's proclivities. was she supportive of the national historic preservation actually active in promoting it absolutely as we know it was since it was signed into law in 1966. it would have been her husband who was president and yes very much very supportive of that as was another agency that i know she was very active in the national trust for historic preservation, and they are also a member of the advisory council. so how is their work different than yours? well, they they're a a nationwide membership organization. and so we are not membership. we are a federal agency and that's the major difference where federal agency they are a member organization, but a nonprofit nonprofit engine, correct? yes. yeah, and they they have here came from the government in 1949. and their their role has changed over the over their approach. their orientation has changed a little bit over the years, but they are very important partner too in the work that we're doing and they have a number of friends actually worked for them for a part of in my career for a number of years. so i'm pretty familiar with the work that they do and they're an important member of our team now you mentioned early on in our discussion that environmental issues are very important when it comes to historic preservation. yeah. yes. we consider the cultural environment part of the environmental movement in fact as the acting chairman of the council at this point. i have set up a task force. to deal with climate change and this this deal this focuses directly on our native american tribes our native american citizens who have a direct connection with the natural. features in our country and to them for them. these are very significant. they're not just a river. it's a part of their culture. it's a part of their of their values and their religion. so this and all many of all of the existing environmental umbrella and brian environmental statutes deal with cultural resources now, jordan tannenbaum, what do you do with the youth space shuttle? thank you for asking. what we do with them is that we preserve them. we nominate them to the national register. that's one of the categories of properties that can go on the national register along with district structures sites and in the case of the shuttles all three of them the discovery and and company that are that were remaining and that were at some point ready to be accessed. we save them we documented them and we made sure that they would be protected and they are now at the three remaining shuttles are now in california at the johnson space center in houston and at in florida at kennedy space center in museum and being interpreted and so we we saved them because they were an important part of our cultural patrimony save them and every part of them that motors generators every every the rockets everything was recorded and saved. now who does the actual recording and chronically? well, of course and let me just say that the agency involved there was nasa federal agency and they had responsibility. they owned them. so the agency that does the recording is a there are two agencies that do recording like this one is called the historic american engineering record and the other is called the historic american building survey and they are both national park service entities. created by the historic site, which i mentioned early on which passed in 1966. mr. tannenbaum how many locations structures etc are on the national register and and when was that part of the 1966 act as well? yes. it was actually what it did was that that register was actually came into. existence in the historic sites act which as we said also created hair and habs agencies, but it only dealt with national properties of national significance what we call national stark landmarks. it took the national historic preservation act of 66 to say we're going to broaden that definition to include properties of state and local significance. so, yeah, it didn't create it, but it did expand the national register as to our places and in terms of how many are on the national register somewhere probably around 150 to thousand now keep in mind 150, yes, but keep in mind that's not just one property. that could be a district with. that with 500 properties. so so that's one metric the other metric that's important is properties that are eligible for the register that meet the register criteria that are set up by the park national park service. that is an could be an infinite number. i mean that's hundreds of thousands and they also get protection of section 106 i once lived in a neighborhood that had his national historic status. what does that mean? well, it means that you are you were depending on what the use of the properties there. it might be eligible for tax benefits. it could be it certainly wouldn't might enhance the value of your property and it has it would look when in our area we know old town alexandria georgetown all huge historic districts that's important in addition. there are there's technical assistance you can get from the national park service rehabilitate along with possible grants that it's a small grant program, but they're available as well. so there are a lot of advantages to being on the national register to our places, of course then on that you have overlaid local ordinances, right? sometimes they're actually-- and i think in many cases they're actually more restrictive than the net being on the national register with starred places. that doesn't do anything to your property rights speaking now. lawyer your property is on the national register. there's as far as i'm concerned. there's everything that benefits it. the only time that there's a restriction is if there's a federal undertaking that in some way might have an effect on your property and then this process that we've been talking about comes into play that doesn't happen that often, but that that's how it could there could be some impact. mr. tannenbaum, is this a full-time job for you or do you have other activities here in washington? yes, i have other activities i am this is not a full-time job as vice chairman as chairman. it is a full-time job. i am currently the chief and have been for the last 17 and a half years the chief development officer for the united states holocaust memorial museum here in town. and that is my full-time job for sure. is there a section 106 story with the holocaust museum? absolutely, they're actually is the building that i work in now called the ross building was part of the auditor's complex and this is a very interesting story others complex part of that bureau printing and engraving complex down there right and when they were building the holocaust museum, they couldn't use several of the existing buildings that were there, but they wanted to say they could use the ross building. it was had a different name at that point. i actually worked on this project when i worked for the advisory council in from 72 to 82. and so that building is on the national register. it was part of a memo of agreement that saved the building and said that it would be rehabilitated and adaptively used and i now work in that building. so yes, there's a very personal connection that i have to that particular structure. now. what does a chief development officer do raise money you bet you bet. we're in a billion dollar campaign and we are closing in on our goal of a billion dollars as i sit here speaking with you this morning. we're at 992 million dollars and what are you going to do with that money? we have it the money that we're that's being raised supports all of our programs. the money goes to a conservation facility that we built in bowie, maryland and dedicated a couple of years ago. are you still getting an artifact? and and we're we are actively searching for artifacts and the window was closing as the survivors pass and the and the information about where they are goes. yes. we are getting an artifacts a huge collection that is most of its stored in bowie, maryland at our chapelle center named after the family that that gave the lead gift for that important. how many hours a week do you spend on the advisory council? now well now it's a little bit unusual because as i said, i'm the acting chairman, so i probably spend about and this is all usually burning the midnight oil spending about 20 hours a week. 15 to 20 hours a week on a ride. i think i have to review all the members of agreement that are coming in that need to be signed. i have some responsibilities as managing the staff and doing some reviews i have responsibilities to speak and to and to share information about the council as i'm doing this morning. so yeah, it's a it's a big job and when the full-time chairman arrives, i will i will welcome her with open arms, but it has been in a very enjoyable experience and joining us on american history tv is the acting chair and the vice chair of the advisory council on historic preservation jordan tannenbaum. we appreciate your time. thank you very much peter. thank you a p
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