>> the subcommittee on oversight investigations will come to order. the subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on lessons from the field. overcrowding in national parks. >> under committee rule for f, any oralopening statements at this hearing are limited to the chair or ranking minority member. this will allow us to hear from our witnesses sooner. we hope that members keep their schedules. therefore, i ask any other member opening statements be made is part of the hearing record. this is submitted to the clerk by 5 pm today or the close the hearing, whatever comes first. hearing no objection, order. i ask unanimous consent that the following members be permitted to ask questions of witnesses at today's hearing. the member from colorado, the member from american samoa, the member from montana. without objection, the chair may declare a recess subject to the call of the chair. as described in the notice statements and documents -- sorry, asn described in the notice, statements, documents, and motions, they must be submitted to the repository at mail dot house. gov. members present should provide a hard copy for staff to distribute. please note that staff are responsible for their own microphones. as with our in-person meetings, members commuted by staff only to avoid inverted background noise. finally, members experiencing technical problems should inform committee staff immediately. i will now recognize myself for five minutes to make an opening statement. welcome to the final oversight investigation subcommittee hearing of the 117th congress. it has been an honor to service chair and work with ranking member moore. national parks are the nation's treasures. our public lands belong to every american. every american should be able to enjoy the beauty of our parks and public lands. as chair, i made this issue a top priority. the first hearing that i chaired for this subcommittee focused on making our public lands more accessible for people with disabilities. i've fought to increase funding for the every kid outdoors program. it allows every fourth grader in their family to go to our national parks for one year for free. national parks matter a lot to me. i grew up on a farm. for vacation, we often went to national parks. not because they are beautiful and restoring, but because they were affordable. as a mother of three children, parks or a classroom, a playground, and once again a pleased to bond with family. last year, i wanted to go camping to zion with--. i managed to navigate the recreation app. we were lucky enough to reserve a campsite for one night. we found that alternative public land site for other nights. we had a great time camping in exploring in zion. as with many any major attraction, it was pretty crowded. we have lots of traffic. not everyone was able to get to see what they wanted to. i was fortunate there to meet with -- i am glad he is here with us today. monetizing my trips this year, i went to death valley national park, joshua tree, indiana dunes, and -- valley, it made me wonder how our national park system is protecting the resources while making them accessible to this many people as possible. i dove in. some parks are national attractions. for parks like that, overcrowding must be actively managed. there are two basic ways to deal with this. you can get more pie. or you can divide up the pie. to get more power, you developed land. either inside or outside the park. more people can have a place to stay to get around, to hide different trails. however, sometimes you have to divide the pie and allocate access. maybe there is not enough land. maybe the land needs to be preserved. public lands are limited resources. we cannot always just big more pie. there is no one size fits all solution to overcrowding. in some cases, technology is key. in others, acquiring, protecting, and responsibly developing land just outside of the parks as the answer. we had to be careful with the. expanding parks in this ways sometimes go to attract more visitors without relieving overcrowding. in many cases, parks have had success with managing overcrowding. they have done so by working hard to build consensus with friendly groups, local businesses, in gateway community members. one of the reasons i am grateful for this presence is that i saw the approach at work when i took my family to zion. i am also glad to have him here because i wanted to work with my colleagues from utah. i want to showcase the enervation in success that he has in his own backyard. we had a good conversation about this hearing found some common ground. we will not agree on everything. what i strongly believe that there is room for bipartisan solutions here. one thing that i think we can all agree on is that we need to make plans for how they are gonna handle overcrowding. parks have been required by law since 1978 to figure out how many visitors the park can handle. and to make a plan to manage visitation. in preparing for this hearing, i learned very few parks have made these plans. today i hope to learn about why and what barriers parks are facing to do the planning that they need. in preparing for the hearing, i came across a number of causes of -- overcrowding. they are deserving of further oversight. concessions are often overpriced due to local monopolies. the office of management and budget is holding up the budget needed to manage overcrowding. visitors are having difficulty with recreation. gov and the contractor who operates it. solving overcrowding in our national parks also means dealing with these concerns and making sure families are not priced out of our national treasures. there's still work to do today and in the following congress. -- i now turn it over to my colleague from utah, ranking member moore, for his opening statement. >> thank you. today's meetings highlight an important challenge on some of our most highlighted national parks. they are getting rapidly increasing visitation numbers. it is crucial that the national park service gives individual parks the flexibility to respond to the unique set of circumstances that each park is facing. overall, it is encouraging to see more americans in international travelers traveling to see our nations natural beauties. we protect these treasures so that the public can go and enjoy them. our party should resist the temptation to simply no limit the number of visitors who can enter. instead, we should pursue innovative and common sense illusions that address the challenges overcrowding. we should also maintain access to our parks for the greatest number of people. today i am particularly pleased to be joined by hannah downey from the property and environment research center. i look forward to learning more about the different approaches that virus can utilize to disperse visitors within parks and surrounding areas, to the -- pressure points associate with overcrowding. we are capitalizing on ecological developments in public and private partnerships. the parks are handling a rising number of visitors. they will maintain a positive visitor experience will also negating the impacts of overcrowding. additionally, i am interested in discussing the ways that park should engage with local gateway communities. open dialogue with these communities is necessary for implementing effective solutions. we also have the opportunity to lessen the consequences of overcrowding through legislative action. let's talk about the retaining in recruiting employees to work international parks. with appropriate staffing levels, parks are better able to handle an increased number of visitors. one of the issues impacting the ability to obtain and recruit staff. there is the rising cost of housing in the gateway communities. that is why i introduced the lodge act. this legislation would give the national park service the flexibility to enter into partnerships with non federal entities and other federal agencies to develop employee housing. with increased housing options, parks will be able to recruit more employees. that would help to lessen the consequences of overcrowding. we would have longer wait times and garbage accumulation. we could also negate the impact overcrowding by targeting the funding with increased visitors. we want to make sure that the great american outdoors act or funds are targeted again to places with increasing visitors. i look forward to discussing zion national park's maintenance backlog with the superintendent that is joining us today. despite having $58 million deferred maintenance, no project for the national park were included in the national park service fiscal year 2023. of that project list, two of them received legacy restoration funds. that is unfortunate. i am disappointed that national park service director declined -- invitation to attend the hearing. it is our job up here to invite government witnesses. it is their job to be here to testify. we are doing backlog projects in maintaining infrastructure. those are crucial components of combatting consequences of overcrowding. i have significant concerns about how the administrations allocating restoration funds in the process through which means projects are selected. it defied logic determination second most visited park would not receive funds to complete maintenance projects. today's hearings give us an opportunity to discuss innovative solutions to a serious issue. it is my hope that americans will continue to take advantage of the gems within our park system. we can equipped the national parks with the flexibility needed to handle visitors more effectively and efficiently. thank you. i yield back. >> thank you. i would like to turn to our panel -- jeff -- is the superintendent of zion national park for the national park service. let me remind all witnesses that under our committee rule they must limit their statements to five minutes. their entire statement will appear in the hearing record. when you began, the time where it will began. it will turn orange when you have one minute remaining. i recommend that members and witnesses join me remotely. panned the time are certainly visible. it is now the chair's pleasure to recognize mr. bradybaugh to testify. >> chairman porter and ranking member moore, thank you for the opportunity to represent the department's -- the past few years have reminded us how important national parks and public lands are to our overall well-being. we are ensuring the visitors have enjoyable experiences. that has become increasingly challenging. there were 423 units -- national park system. about half of all recreation -- that if the top 25 most visited parks. there is significant congestion seen in most popular destination parks. the national park service is employing a range of strategies to provide a welcoming environment for going and sharing protection for national resources. the national park service is long managed access to areas in the overnight permits. they are working with local partners to develop strategies for sustainable tourism. we have invested in shuttles. blocking is encouraged. as we test new ideas, whose public stakeholder engagement. they are committing to long term implementation. the time victory systems are now in place in a few areas. they proved that -- this is yosemite national park. they addressed specific park. again he insights into how the systems could contribute to the park's long term management ghouls. -- 5 million visitors for the first time in 2021. this is a part of a long range planning. we began issuing permits for one of our most popular trails. this pilot permit program has improved visitor experience playing creasing can congestion. we also tested our system during the height of the pandemic. this maximize visitor access. they accommodated covid limitations. we will use the data collected along with data collected from almost a decade of research to inform potential future management alternatives for zion national park. the national park service also working to improve visitor experience. that includes the mobile app. continued improvements to recreation. gov. in addition to the national park service, we have plan like a park ranger campaign. it supports visitors by devising them to have a backup plan in advance of a reservation and permit. we encourage people to explore lesser known parks. and at the national park service wants visitors to have a great park experience. given the iconic and finite nature these highly valued places, the national park service is collaborating with local communities, businesses, and non profit partners to find solutions for equality and inclusivity of visitor experiences. we want to address congestion and make a tremendous range of benefits that the national parks can provide. thank you again for the opportunity to appear today. i will be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you. i will now recognize members for any questions that they may wish to ask. i remind them that the community rule imposes a five minute limit on questions. i will start by recognizing myself. mr. bradybaugh, there is no one size fits all solution for overcrowding. but there are actions that parks can take. we met when i was visiting zion. you have talked about different kinds of strategies that you have seen used at zion and other parks where you worked to manage the surge of visitors, the threat of overcrowding. in your written testimony, you shared lots of things. what lessons can you offer to this committee and to other park managers and other national parks with zion's experience with increased visitor capacity? >> one of the principal lessons learned was the key to all of our management actions. they want to develop partnerships and work with local communities. we know that visitors don't just come to national parks. they are welcome and into our gateway communities. they attend dismisses. they support an economy in our region. we have non profit partners that assist us in planning. they provide thing that help us. it is really important to engage with the local community. we have the state tourism organizations. >> we need to coordinate both when we are dealing with travel congestion in particular. there are some key things that we look at a developing -- how are people arriving? what are their routes? where the visitors tend to concentrate? we need to understand those visitor patterns. they may be very --, they may be seasonal. it may be affected by how utilize the park is at certain times of day. it is critical to manage the use of zion canyon and the adjacent communities. >> in terms of harnessing in connecting with those local communities, and those gateway communities, and the partners and businesses, we are making a plan to manage visitor use. that is a tool for doing that. can you tell the committee why -- first i want to ask you this, design and have a visitor management plan for the park? >> we are working on the plan as we speak. we have done after several years. the visitor use management plan as a means for us to identify the strategies for managing rigid or use and accidents. we have natural resources as well. we are providing high quality visitor experiences. >> what are the barriers? one of the things that we have learned in preparation for this hearing is that very few national parks have their plans for visitor use management plans completed and in place. what are the barriers to parks in doing this? how can this committee better support parks in getting visitor use management plans made? i think that the process -- i think we have seen this in your career. it can be very useful. there is not a one size fits all solution. this is not something that we can necessarily legislate. what makes it hard to get a visitor use management plan done? why isn't it working out? why don't the other -- they struggle to sometimes get started. >> -- we are trying to think about the process. we were engaged with cooperating agencies. that includes the county commissions. there is the state of utah through their offensive lands tourism in public lands policy. we have a gateway community. this manages a great deal of federal lands. these are important connections. these agencies bring specific expertise. and knowledge and experience to the questions that revolve around crowding parks. as we work on alternatives for the plan, we are considering education. this is how we make target specific investments. and how we need to adjust day-to-day operations. those are some basic elements in a plan. there is also a lot of information that needs to be collected. we have over a decade of research. we know what these patterns are -- i mentioned that earlier. we have to consider that visitors are coming to parks. they are not in a large environment or in a regional setting. there is technical expertise. >> thank you very much. i want to recognize mr. moore for questions. >> thank you. i represent utah. we are very proud of our national parks. we appreciate the work you do. particularly with zion. my questions are all geared towards productivity. i want to discuss a local connection to the local communities, fundings, several other items. our national parks have put our state on the map. i think back to my time as a young boy scout. one of the biggest growing periods for me. i went on a day trip down to zion -- my scoutmasters were terrified. it was pouring rain. it was one of the most memorable experiences of my childhood. i want members of my first district, i want members across the world to experience these great places. we cannot just limit a number of people who get there. we have to embrace how we go about doing this. to your knowledge, what has been your experience? can you expand a little bit on the potential of signage in a park opening up new trails? have you worked on anything on this regard? >> we have opened up some new trails and have some plans. i mentioned earlier that the infrastructure need to be targeted in the areas that are experiencing crowding. we can inadvertently increase crowding. legions are not carefully planned. we considered those small narratives part of our business planning. >> you are supportive of finding new options for expansion of new trails? >> as it relates to our visitor planning and how that interacts with the additions we may have crowding, we might have congestion's and most sorts of things. the trail head,, we can develop additional parking why the trail had. increased parking may exacerbate the issue. we have to think about these things in a broader operational perspective and how the things to fit together. >> i have been around the federal government long enough. it is always easy for the federal government to say that there is a process. there is some red tape and we are trying to cut through it. it frustrates me. local officials and state elected leaders, county commissioners, they are in some of these gateway communities. they have offered to help with parking trailers outside of the park. notably those in zion. these are areas that are often underutilized. adding in bathrooms in camping spaces adjacent to the park. they are often met with polite rejection. they say, there is this process we have to go through. are you engaging with these local leaders to come up with innovative solutions? they are pushing the envelope and thinking outside the box. not just relying on the way that things have always been done. post covid, people are loving the outdoors. we cannot just continue to do things the way that we have always done it. it is going to require folks from inside of the bureaucracy to push on it. are you advocating on behalf of this? >> we are working very closely with our elected officials locally. i'd like to point out, one of the things that we are involved in along with other land managers, we are working with local community leaders and business people and regional recreation planning. i've long advocated that we need to look beyond our boundaries and think about how we are managing visitation from a regional perspective. thanks to our county commissioners, some business people are helping to sponsor the zion national park forever project. this group has commissioned a program within the conservation fund. it is a national nonprofit. i'm losing the term here, balancing nature and commerce programs to bring together these entities as they move to protect the park and beyond. we hard on solutions and the transportation issues. we're looking at opportunities with additional camping and recreational trails. there's a whole number of potential solutions. we have to understand the capacity of those areas around the boundary as well. there is the targeted infrastructures needs that may exist. >> one of my biggest takeaways from my first term in congress is how dedicated our local officials are in utah about solving these problems. i love your responses. i urge you to follow up and be willing to engage on this. i yield back hope to get a few more questions. >> we now recognize the chair from colorado for five minutes. >> thank you. thank you to ranking member moore. thank you for holding this important hearing. madam chair, i appreciate your willingness to hold this hearing and your initiative. providing this oversight. this impacts every one of our districts. the public lands subcommittee -- i also happen to represent the district that is home to some of the most iconic national park the united states. that includes rocky mountain national park. over visitation. there is the reality of larger and larger crowds. they are descending onto rocky mountain national park in many other national parks across the country. that clearly warrants for their inquiry. in particular, we have the subcommittee. madam chairwoman, i thank you for your leadership in initiating this hearing. my apologies. i'm going in and out. we all do this. we have these -- climate crisis. this is our last and final hearing for the important committee. and the lesson, i want to be sure to have this hearing so that i could hear some of the questions and answers. i want to make just two observations. first, i want to underscore -- the point that -- local leaders, and this is the case in my jurisdiction instate, this is the community that i represent. i expect that this is true of many other countless communities across our country. in particular, the rocky mountain when asked. local leaders are paired and willing to engage in innovative in collaborative practices but the national park service to trying address some of these challenges. they ultimately need a partner. i know that they have been open to exploring some of those collaborative pasts. i would just echo the comments that were made previously by my colleagues. encouraging the national park service to continue to be agile and flexible and working with local communities to try and address this on a case by case basis. secondly, i suppose this could be a question for you, mr. bradybaugh. this is perhaps a bit of an observation as well. understand that we are engaged and getting long term planning. we are trying to find a way forward and navigate this very cumbersome issue. if you don't have plans, you could adopt a reservation system in 2023. as you know, that has been used in a variety of different national parks. including rocky mountain national park in my congressional district. i wonder what your timeline is for codifying a long term plan to address the issue. perhaps that is too big of a question. you hear from members on this committee. i suspect from others. there is a sense of urgency. we want to make sure that we have the specifics in terms of timing as to when the nps will be in a position to actually implement a long term plan to address this particular challenge. >> thank you for that question. has it has been mentioned, each park is a unique entity in that it has its own circumstances. as we do the planning, we are looking at those specific set of circumstances. that are potentially crowding congestion. one of the things that we have done and, as you mentioned, we are piling on different types of access management. it is important to us to learn from those. and to take the lessons forward when we are addressing plans at specific parks. it was mentioned earlier. we do need to understand these particular situations in different parks. it may be a specific area in a park opposed to the whole park in general. where we see congestion it is often placed based. we make adjustments aim management. we often see that they can be cascading effects across other park operations or in other areas. we are doing a planning and engaging those things. we have monitoring systems. we are measuring the effects of those changes. we are carrying those lessons forward. >> thank you. i will yield back the balance of my time. again, thank you for initiating this hearing. certainly do know that you have a partner in me to the extent that we can explore some potential legislative solutions to address this challenge. >> thank you. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from montana. this is mr. rosendale. >> thank you very much. superintendent, i've been very fortunate to visit many of the national parks around the country. i have been to zion myself. it seems to me that at every one of these locations, while a vast majority of the park itself does not have any impact, if so, it is very little impact, what we need to do seems to identify the areas where the greatest impact is taking place. we need to figure out a way where we can distribute some of that traffic so that it does not cause problems with the infrastructure and with the wildlife populations. i do not know that we have a perfect answer for that. as we are discussing zion, i would like to give the balance of my time to representative moore, who is right there in the district. >> thank you. continuing on, superintendent, thank you. zion national park has a backlog of $58 million deferred maintenance. we passed a bill. congress did that several years ago. it was a great american outdoors act. it could've been a great opportunity to target funding to weight is needed to be. i am not saying that zion need that funding because i represent utah. that is the second most visited park in the nation. the first most visited park, where is it? it can't be better than zion wherever it is. that is my bias coming through. utah stakeholders are baffled by this. we find out the money that went to the washington in virginia beltway. instead of going into the backlogs places that need it more. it is the same. do you feel the same frustration in your office? have you raise any concerns with this on your end? >> we follow a process to identify priorities across the park service and certainly those at the park level. we actually are funded for the great americans outdoors act. that is complete rehabilitation. 120 campgrounds. -- it has not had much work in terms of restoration, utilities, campsites. there are all of those amenities found in the countdown for decades. we are in the engineering process right now for that project. we look forward to moving ahead with that. >> we appreciate that. >> yes. >> continue. >> we recognize the great american outdoors act for our parks is a great opportunity to make progress on our backlog of deferred maintenance. it could even be protection in management. we have natural resource sites. there is also the bipartisan infrastructure law. that is providing funs to adress some of the deferred maintenance and other projects. at the park level, we identified those projects and initiate those as well. >> what do you say that the visitor experience at zion has been impacted by a lack of funding? lack of funding to address these backlog maintenance projects? i know you say there are some things in the works. it has been tough to figure out where it is going in what it is going to do. has it impacted visitation with the lack of funding there? >> we certainly feel that visitation has increased rapidly utilized decade in particular. even the last five or six years. it is difficult to adjust in terms of park operations and facility maintenance. for example, we saw three consecutive years in 2015, 2016, in 2017 where visitation increased. >> -- >> the backlog of facility maintenance hasn't developed in the last decade. or the last several years. it is a long term process. we use a number of different sources. that includes our repair and rehabilitation funds, -- maintenance funds. other projects funds. we use federal lands and highly programs, that we have other sources is to address these things. and so, and, i agree. as we look to the next farm bill, i hope we can really invest in research to provide those farmers with scale appropriate innovations and tools that they need. and related issue to this, to me, is the fact that we are not aligning our subsidies with the best return for the consumer. we are not taking into effect all the negative instrumentality towards what we are doing. for example, only 2% of our aga subsidies are going to foods -- >> do you need more stuff? how many more staff? if the inflation reduction act, which allocates $500 million for staff hires the national parks, if some of that were to come to zion, what kind of stuff would you hire? what kind of staffing plan? how could this help with visions or ship? >> thank you for that question. the inflation reduction act, and the funds that remain available through the forest staffing the parks, we effectively -- visitor services, facility maintenance and conservation of our resources in the park. we protect those values for which visitors come to the parks that's a significant improvement and we look forward to implementing the. >> i just want to encourage you and i want to work with ranking member more to make sure some of that inflation reduction act money goes design and other parks that are facing high visitors shipped and our leaders and thinking about how to balance increased capacity, increased visitor ship with quality of experience and protecting resources. i've seen firsthand some of what you've done there in terms of permitting in terms, of having shuttle bus system but as you and i both know, there's a line an hour plus long to get on to the shuttle bus. so i hope we can fight you to get you some of that funding and get you some of that stuff thing. i'll just observe for the committee that disneyland, in orange county, had about 8 million visitors in 2021. zion had 5 million. and there are a heck of a lot more employees at disneyland. obviously, it's different. the role of a park employees different, but i do think we need to give more staffing, in part because i really do want to see every part complete its visitor use management plan. and you need bandwidth to be able to do that. it's almost, as you can manage the capacity, in your distracted to managing capacity, takes you away from doing the planning that will achieve better manage the capacity in the future. i thank the ranking member fillet allowing me to ask a question. i'm gonna respectfully suggest, if it's okay with, you that we move on to panel to. with that, thank you mister brady bought, thank you very much for being here, we really appreciate you doing that, and now we're gonna transition to our second panel. >> before we introduce, thank you, before we introduce the second panel, i want to remind our non administration witnesses that they're encouraged to participate in the witness diversity survey created by the congressional officers of dispersedly -- witnesses can -- i want to introduce our witnesses. mr. frank dean is the president and ceo of the semi conservancy. miss hannah downey is the policy director of the property and environment research center. and doctor will rice, is an assistant professor of outdoor recreation in wild light management at the university of montana. -- the chair now recognizes mr. frank dean to testify. >> mister dean, i believe you're on mute sir. >> all right. thank you. thank you chairwoman porter, and ranking member blake moore and members of the committee. i am the president and ceo of the nonprofit yosemite conservancy. i also serve as the chair of the national park service friends alliance, a coalition of over 100 -- that provide philanthropic support for national parks across the country. i'm speaking to you today in support of using reservation systems -- yosemite kunce park received near record visitors, a 4 million visitors. -- exceeded the maximum cut that was established by u.s. district court settlement in 2014, making the parks vulnerable to possible litigation from conservation groups. at the request of the park service, yosemite can service sorry retained of transportation planner in 2019 to collect traffic data and to identify possible solutions, including how long people stayed inside the park. this data and planning would prove to be crucial to reopening yosemite during the global pandemic. covid-19 pandemic forced yosemite to close the park in 2020. national park service managers, in conjunction with the department of interior officials in washington, agreed to open yosemite in june of 2020 a reduced service levels, and required visitors, reservations for visitors -- the reservations were available on recreation.gov website. the reservation program ended for them speak season in late september, and yosemite serve two point to visitors in 2020. the reservation system in yosemite receive significant media coverage, but it was apparent that many people were not aware of the system, because some returned away at the end trends after driving through the park, including many spanish speaking visitors. in 2021, the pandemic conditions were still prevalent, and yosemite continued the reservation system from may through september. some system refinements were made to a lot more visitors to attend enter the park, as covid cases decline. yosemite conservancy also assisted with -- spanish language radio on social media, including creating an online video in spanish, to help people navigate their reservation.gov reservation site. -- yosemite served three point -- this year, given the conditions -- the spanish language outreach continued. the reservation system has resulted in less people visiting the park, and has affected the regional business community that serves the park visitors. it's difficult to quantify. these impacts. the park was also closed for other reasons at different times over the past few years, due to wildfires and covid related staffing shortages. the national park service recently announced that they will begin a public information process on december 9th, later this week, to determine the long term solutions to yosemite's visitor in traffic issues. given the pandemic largely subsided, the park does not have a plan to use the reservation system in 2023, as they review various alternatives, including a timed and treat option. -- the goal of the final decision by 2024. working with the park gateway communities and businesses will be essential to the success of any program going forward. as yosemite has now -- overall the manage access programs have increased an improved visitor experiences -- and as much less costly solutions -- in conclusion, i support the option of using data's reservations or time entry systems -- this concludes my prepared remarks. i'm happy to answer any questions you might. have >> thank you very much mister dean. the chair now recognizes miss hannah downey to testify. >> thank you. chairwoman porter, ranking member blake moore, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to address waste to discuss the challenges and solutions to increase visitations at our national parks. i'm the policy director at the property and environment research center. -- it is a national leader in market solutions to conservation. with over 40 years of research on how aligning incentives for environmental stewardship produces better outcomes for land, water and wildlife. i count myself as one of the lucky few to live in the shadow of yellowstone national park. i have witnessed firsthand the joy of so many people getting to experience the wonders of our first national park, but also the challenges that have come with the parks growing popularity. americans are rediscovering the outdoors and record numbers. recently, park visitation grew by more than 20% in just three years, and a state high. despite overall system visitation growth, the impacts are not felt equally. last year, 44 out of the 423 national park system units, set records for visitation. parks hosted a total of 290 million recreation visits, more than half of those visits, however, we're just to 25 most visited parks in the country, representing just 6% of the national park system. to further complicate matters, those visitors do not disturb dispersed feebly. yellowstone national park, for example, estimates 98% of visitors never guessed more than half mile away from the car, using just 1% of the park. well it's nice to see -- congestion is negatively impacting visitors, park service personnel, and the natural resources that are park services were created to protect. we -- first, they must empower park superintendents with the flexibility to respond creatively with approaches best suited for their individual parks. and second, they must also address maintenance needs in the parks. addressing the challenges of increased visitation will look different for each part, based on park geography, amenities and goals. congress should be careful to not impose a one size fits all solution. consider one example from our backyard. yellowstone national park recently faced a visitor pressure point at the popular madison junction, were cars waiting to churn routinely backed up for miles. the park transportation study explored adding an overpass around about, which would cost millions of dollars and taken years to complete. instead, an employee suggested a trick quick and cheap proposal. adding an always stop sign. superintendent -- decided to give it a try and the results have been impressive. the crowded pressure points has been a vaguely alleviated. -- other approaches could include's use of parking attendants to reduce frequent parking lot congestion, using technology such as webcams or visitation heat maps, to inform visitors in realtime what areas of the park most crowded, implementing shuttle buses, or using reservation systems where appropriate. another approach is to look at how we can better encourage visitors to explore public lands outside of the parkland busy days. these approaches will have to be unique to each national park, and that in nate manager in neighboring public land managers and gateway communities. the national park service can also support explore how to better -- the second thing congress and the national park service need to address infrastructure and maintenance needs at our parks that are further stretched by more users. -- defer maintenance backlog now totals -- including everything from eroding trails, crumbling roles, failing wastewater systems and dilapidated visitor facilities. significant funding was provided through the great american outdoors act, but the reality is the underlying issue remains result unresolved, which is a lack of attention to routine maintenance. fortunately, visitors can be part of the solution through existing funding models, that address visitor feeds back on to the ground -- to improve the park visitor experience. increase visitation in the most popular national parks requires a unique an innovative solution. we should celebrate more people using our national parks. we should also use for look for ways to utilize these resources. congress can help ensure these approaches that our national parks remain accessible and well managed for all to enjoy. thank you. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. the chair now recognizes dr. will rice to testify. >> chair porter, ranking member blake moore, and members of the subcommittee. i'm honored to be represent the -- engine answer your question -- for people are complex with complex attitude, motivations -- all of which determine our behavior in subsequent experiences the challenges and trials -- alike to begin with two points of clarification. first, as important to note that freedom of central outdoor recreation, in many ways the national parks are emblematic of the larger freedoms that americans enjoy. -- managing and regulating the visitor experience and limiting freedom in the face of national parks has impacts on this receiving a more uncommon find experience. second, -- based on the number entering the park. see crowding must be empirically identified -- on the visitor experience. this is not to say that the -- are not an issue of high importance. research has found negative social impacts resulting from increasing visitor use the national parks. management actions are perceived by two manage or limit use. in recent years, as a management strategy -- and generally ignore the characteristics of the visitor -- research suggests there also serious run vacations for how you ration -- using reservations, lottery, pricing, or first come first serve systems. we must balance equity, efficiency, quality and need, to ensure their rushing decisions. unlike the private sector, -- publicly administrator goods like entrust permits in a national park, require more complex solutions in order to keep these sites accessible for all americans. according to 2021 newsletter, -- may have the 0.3% chance of successfully booking a campsite through an online reservation system. this just is likely lower for those with jobs that prevent them from being -- those living in rural areas -- to limited intern to make reservations whenever -- additional mechanisms have their own -- we lack a research based backs practice to help national park managers as they navigate options in striking the correct balance for rational use. numerous national park -- require guidance on how to fairly and efficiently distribute opportunities across dynamic systems. in fact, dr. steve mccool wrote 41 years ago that, quote, how managers go allocating scarce management opportunities and facing -- and a framework for solutions, closed quote. at present, there is still not a framework to help best rational communities. as a subject matter expert, i see this as a primary -- unfortunately, the research community, including agency staff face an increasingly difficult barrier with regards to office management and budget review and courts with the -- our best tool to understand a visitor experience in park settings and national parks and other federal lands. an omb desk officer. from an external perspective, in the last two years, this reviewer has nearly solved and many today effort are stalled. the management actions that rest on the data to be collected are stalled or are continuing with that information to get them. i conclude by restating that preamble from a 1987 article which focuses on similar things. quote, to every complex problem, there is a simple solution. closed quote. managing people's national parks -- complex solutions if we are to do it right. thank you. >> thank you very, very much. i want to thank the whole panel for their testimony. we have a five-minute limit on questions. pending votes. if it's okay with the ranking member, i will get right to it and we will do as much as we can. mister dean, california is obviously very proud of yosemite. we are proud it's one of the most visited national parks. in your testimony, you spoke about that day use reservation system. we know -- >> i think it's important to communicate and work with the local communities, the business community in particular that serves the visitors. there also needs to be better future planning to -- people should know in advance have a certainty about their visit, where they are going to, go maybe better planning. but maybe even expediting payment of the entrance fee in advance which requires better technology at the entrance stations connectivity so that those tickets, if you will, or just there day pass that they normally would pay for is the transaction is smooth. by now the entrance stations are typically in the entrance of the parks. not often there is good cell service and connectivity. some things like that could be tweaked that speed the process up and also provide a better experience to people who had the guidance in advance to plan their visit. >> mister dean, i wanted to ask about -- i've used recreation.gov, mostly, like most americans, as dr. rice said, unsuccessfully. that is, i have used it and not be able to find a campsite once in a while, i have. can you talk about some of the problems with recreation.gov off? first to mr. dean, what are some of the problems with recreation.gov and what should we do about them? >> the one thing we realized as we were doing our spanish language app, we want to point people to the website. this is how you get a ticket into the park. the reservation. we realized the site was not bilingual. it was not in spanish and given california's population that's a problem. we created this how to video that was posted online on the parks website and our website as well. i think that is really a challenge and in general getting the word out. it's a lot of publicity. whether there is a fire -- it's always in the news. for some reason, this two week or this change did not reach many peoples. they thought initially you need a registration to camp but it wasn't really clear that you needed a reservation to access the park itself. that's a decision we had to make. >> that's unclear recently true, needing a reservation to access the park, for example, in acadia, to do the drive up the mountain. i recently didn't go because i just could not manage along with everything else involved taking a vacation as a single mom with three kids to figure that out. one of the things i'm concerned about is equity here. reservation.gov, a lot of those reservations are available six months out. congress definitely can't plant six minutes out. we definitely can't plan six months out. i think i've canceled more reservations than i've been able to use. can you talk about some of the equity issues involved in recreation.gov? i know there are sort of bots and efforts to pay, in some cases, to get notified, third party bots trying to manage the last minute cancellations. what do we need to ask what the people who are running this, what do we need to ask them to make sure that whether it stay use or overnight camping use, that it's an equitable process? >> i think we need better communication from the helpful guidance to the consumer. it should be more than just one language, more than just the english. it is a very busy system. it's basically become a v hoover system for reservations on public lands. it seems overwhelmed. people complain that they get on the site and they have to plan six months in advance or whatever and are still unable to meet it with so many people vying for those reservations. that's very frustrating. trying to communicate more effectively about how to do it, it's really a challenge because these are really unique sites. there's only one yosemite valley. there's only one i zion national park. these are competitive places. there is equity in other areas as well. you have high-speed internet in your house and the time at that 70 am hour two make the reservation. >> thank you very much, dr. rice. i'm interested in your research as. well i think people need to hear that 0.03% chance. it's pretty difficult to make plans to go to a national park and then have your hopes dashed six months out. i will turn it over to mr. moore for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, chair. miss down, it you're engagement with our team has been very much appreciated. candidly, your research and your testimony is sensational. this is evidence based and solution driven. i only hope that we can actually implement what's in here. i will use that as a base for some of my questions. with the increased visitation, you have two major things in play. you have visitor experience, and you have a deterioration of our infrastructure. can you speak to what great american outdoors act funding to hit the backlog of what is designed to do could help to alleviate those two issues? >> certainly. thank you, ranking member more, for the question. the great american outdoors act, specifically that dedicated funding for deferred maintenance is was long overdue and something that was so incredibly important to addressing some of these visitor needs in our park as we have had on already in this hearing. visitors and the increased visitation vase come with maintenance costs on our national parks. we look at wastewater systems, roads, trails, parking areas. more visitors means more stress on that infrastructure and more maintenance needs. you're absolutely correct. it's really important that when we look at visitation we are also considering not just the visitor experience but also the park experience and the maintenance of our parks. creating dedicated funding for our deferred maintenance and also routine maintenance so it become -- is incredibly important. >> you are close to all this. i wouldn't necessarily call you an outsider but you are not officially a part of the bureaucracy, right? your research, your policy center comes to this with a solution driven mindset. what, in your opinion, what is keeping us from being able to better engage with local officials and better embrace technology to actually solve some of these problems? >> thank you, ranking member moore, for that question. i think there is a real opportunity to use some technology. i think a lot of this just comes from openness to acknowledge it and embrace it. recognizing that there are other areas or parks were they are using some of these approaches. i'm wondering how kinetic can better implement them in the park easier experience. look at the technology, the basic use of webcams and being able to provide a live stream for visitors of what are the actual conditions in a parking lot, trail ahead, or enter gate at a point in time so they can have the information needed to adjust how they plan to use the park that day. in addition to that, so they're gonna have a true expectation of what the park might look like. you see these incredible pictures of angels landing with no other people around it. you go, you are competing against hundreds of other people to hold on to these chains while you are thousands of feet above the ground. being able to provide that real information for people so they can make their own decisions is really important. there is a great opportunity to use technology and partners to do that. >> dispersion? is that part of the solution that you are talking about? would you care to expand a little bit more on how we can get people to more diverse parts of the parks. instead of being, like you mentioned, half a mile from their parked car. >> yes, thank you. dispersion is definitely a part of that. i believe others have touched on this as well. for example, in yellowstone, 98% of visitors only use 1% of the park. we are so blessed with this incredible park. certainly we need to be careful in how we distribute users that we don't have people climbing into geysers are falling off a cliff, but at the same point in time providing some of that information is going to be really essential to visitors. even through things like having parking attendants, representatives, or concession air to run a lot of this recreation work, able to help inform visitors to those other areas is really essential. >> if only there were a way to get some of the old maps stuck in filing cabinets in the basements of the department of interior. if they could only get those accessible through more technological advances like applications on our iphones. wait, we happed mass lineup out of the national resources unanimously earlier and actually did something productive. we look forward to setting that up -- finding an opportunity in the new congress to be able to help alleviate some of these issues. i yield back with that shameless plug my bill this year. >> thank you very much, ranking member moore. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. kilmer for five minutes. miss downie, with regard to ideas that congress could implement given national park attendants more authority to address the problem of overcrowding, what do you recommend should be changed in order to affect that? >> thank you for the question, representative gohmert. there is a real opportunity for congress to help facilitate some of the partnerships to get this done. representative moore touched on the lodge act. i think some of those approaches are really essential. a lot of these partners already to help with some of these things. there needs to be a message from congress, in coordination with the national park service, that there is real opportunity here. it should be supported, some of the red tape should be removed. i think, for example, in grand teton national park, concession areas now run all of the campgrounds. certainly there are questions about reservations, how do you get those and all of that. i think it is really telling that the park has found a way to say, here is an opportunity where we want to create this visitor experience. we are going to partner with some of these outside groups, other volunteer groups, to be able to provide that experience. the more congress can support the park service in that mission, that would be appreciated. >> i was shocked to hear you mention the 57 million visitors additionally, between 2013 and 2016, when actually between 1992 in 2013, there was flatline. what do you think made the difference in those three years? where it have a flat line for years before that? >> thank you, representative. i think you are spot on. it is really important to understand how we got here in order to better understand how we can move forward from here. i think that we're a few things that contributed. one is notably the anniversary of the parks. the finder park campaign. it was wildly successful. suddenly people had this urge to reconnect, to find their park and get out there. it was also really interesting to look at the rise of social media. it is hard to get exact data from there but horseshoe bend, for example, is a really popular national park service area. that went from about 4000 visitors a year, to the rise of instagram and all of these iconic photos emerging in circulating on people's feed, to over 2 million visitors a year. that is huge. there were these campaigns. and during covid, people wanted to get outside. international trips were canceled. they can go to disneyland. they could still take their families camping. it was sort of this perfect storm of a lot of factors coming together. >> well, also, the mention of 423 national park service units, 25 had more than half of all the visits. is there any way that you think we could get local governments, local businesses, to engage. you mentioned partnerships, seems like it would be a perfect place for partnerships. local governments, local businesses, to be advertising local parks. national parks, to get more visits in those less traveled? >> representative gohmert, i agree with you on that. i think it is very important that all of this is done with coordination with the local communities. for example, we don't want to outsource arches national park visitations challenges to dead horse state park, right? while there is real opportunity there. it needs to be done carefully and with coordination to ensure that those opportunities exist. i think it is also worth noting, oftentimes people come to the parks -- they've traveled for miles! they've come from all over the world to see the geysers in yellowstone. it is a little more complicated than just suggesting they go elsewhere when they traveled so far to see specific features. with proper coordination, especially when it comes to lodging or campgrounds, things like that, the localities can implement solutions that work for them. >> thank you so much. i yield back my time, chair. >> thank you very much. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from montana. mr. rosedale for five minutes. >> thank you for joining us. my lot of question basically has been broken down to three buckets. the first bucket is the civil engineers, biologist and basically the infrastructure of the plans itself. the second bucket is visitor experience. everyone seems to be talking about, as well. which is much, much more difficult to quantify. and then the last bucket i have is the attendance increase as a direct result, as we have seen, because of covid. what we are trying to anticipate in regards that. my first bucket, when it comes to doing a good analysis of the needs of the park, if we can look at it as a sub, a in b, the infrastructure itself. do we have adequate data on the needs, as we have gone through the great american outdoors act and everything, do we truly have good data on where those investments need to go? >> thank you, congressman, for the question. i think you are correct, it is really important that we understand what are the needs that we can direct the resources to the most pressing needs. that said, i know parks yellowstone, for example, is going through an infrastructure needs assessment. it can actually have a better sense of what are the needs, one of the dollar figures needed to address that. one of the staff capacity, department needs, all of those things. i would encourage other parks as well start looking at that. to make sure we have clear dater and better information. >> that is something that really does need to be compiled? all of our civil engineers having them work in that department? how about from the biological standpoint the added impact on the increased visitation? or the environment in self, and the wildlife, how they get impacted? it seems a lot of the time and the wildlife becomes very quickly accustomed to the additional traffic. they are used to having interaction with humans. do you -- the biological data collection? >> yes. thank you, congressman. i would agree, i think there are real questions on what is the impact of wildlife. you go through yellowstone, as i'm sure you've experienced, as well. you will see bears right in the parking lot. right along the roadways. there are questions of, what does this mean? are we increasing wildlife mortality because they are used to human presence and habituated in areas where they maybe shouldn't be? beyond that, i think we look at real questions and issues, as well, with deteriorating maintenance. failing weight water systems, for example. some parts of had their wastewater systems fail. all of that sewage is going into waterways. what does that mean for wildlife, fish, and the visitor experience? it just goes to show that all of this is very connected. >> when we start talking about each of the individual parks, gathering that data, we are blessed in our parks right there in montana. glacier in yellowstone national park. camp shelley is one of the finest people have worked -- one of the most effective gentlemen i have come across. i personally think that if we could have that information distributed to the folks who are making decisions for their respective parks before it goes anywhere else, they are the closest to the issue. would they not be the ones who were best suited to identifying where the issues are? >> congressman rosendale, certainly the park superintendents are the closest to the parks. they know the local communities, they know the unique pressure points. they know the cultural implications and the challenges that come from managing a park in a specific area. certainly, i think all of the decisions should be generated at a local level. what works for one park might not work for another. yellowstone, for example, when the recent flooding shut down more than half of the park. the park had a reduced visitation quickly, superintendent shelley decided instead of going to the reservation system, and all that confusion that would come from that, he still wanted people to come. he gathered together local stakeholders. what they decided to do was implemented an even license plate system. odd number days, people with a license plate and then placed with a broad number could enter the park. on even days an even number. on that way there was some sense of certainty amidst this tragedy in the park they. we will get creative and have a simple solutions of people would have some certainty on when people reveal to get into the park. those are the locally led superintendent driven solutions and mindset that we need to help solve these problems. >> it looks like i'm about down to my last time question. that was dramatically increased, the positive in spirits of the people who weren't able to get to the park had as well? >> congressman, i would agree. i think it was a very unique situation. through a unique approach that was well communicated and bought into it by the community, it was fairly successful. >> thank you very much. madam chair, i yield back. >> thank you very much. with the ranking member's indulgence i'm going to ask in question here to dr. rice. dr. rice, why is omb not facilitating any ability to engage visitors and collect data on their park experiences? people's expectations and experiences matter. it is part of what local communities need. it is part of what sparked superintendents need. why is omb not doing this? >> thank you for that question, share more. i think as an external -- i do not work for that group. i am fairly external to this process. i will just explain from my perspective. my students, for instance, they want to do their thesis work and helping yellowstone national park, we are trying to get all the approval, we are going through that process. if they want to submit that survey in order to help the people at yosemite better understand how do we better, how do we best manage this. how do we find an excess system that works, that makes sense. how do we enforce transit infrastructure planning. those things rely on understanding park for their perspectives. park visitors are huge stakeholder in this process. in order to get that data, we have to go to the office of management and budget review. the national park service social science office helps facilitate that. they are fantastic. they provide good feedback. and then it is submitted to the desk officer for the house of management budget. that is where the transparency stops. for us, we don't know where it sits and review. there is no way of contacting that person. for instance i have a student who just had a survey in review for everglades national park -- for the stewardship plan. that survey has been sitting there. that student will graduate before that survey's review. i cannot speak to why it is happening, i can only speak to some of the limitation is puts on park managers trying to do this the right way. trying to do this and updated of an. way understanding how this will affect the overall experience. understanding what visitors experience needs are. that is the process. >> i appreciate that. it is called the paperwork reduction act. it is not called the do nothing act. i think we need to follow up with omb to inquire why they are not facilitating the collection of this data. i think most of the park visitors would like to improve the park experience for future visitors and for themselves. i intend to follow up on this, to see what can be done. with that, if it's acceptable i would like to thank everyone for testifying today. i will move to closing statements. >> first i want to thank ranking member moore for working with me on this hearing. did you want to ask one more question? no. okay. for being flexible with their schedules. ultimately this is about bringing more people to the national parks. more different kinds of people to the national parks in a way that increases everyone's enjoyment. there are clearly many opportunities and ways to do that. one of the ways -- is that some of this innovation whether it is based on technology weathered is based on increased social partnerships it requires people. people to direct traffic. people to come up with innovative plans. people to give advice. i'm proud to say that in the inflation reduction act we won $500 million for more park staff i'm looking forward to continuing understand how we can continue to reduce alum be reproof -- how we can make recreation. gov more functional and more fair and how we can prevent price gouging and improve equity within our parts. on a closing note, i want to say it has been a real pressure working with you mister moore. thank you for your civility your willingness to have an open and honest conversation and near genuine commitment to oversight as i wrap up this last hearing as the chair of the oversight and investigations subcommittee, i just want to briefly reflect on what we have done over the past two years i'm really proud of what we've been able to accomplish. we've had hearings from everything from disability access on federal lands to uncovering the role of public relations firms and climate dissemination from toxic chemicals on tires that harm our salmon. to american responsibility to manage our nuclear legacy in the marshall islands. from keeping it serial pollutants from getting taxpayer dollars. to the committee's first ever a criminal referral to the department of justice for bribery involving the former secretary of the interior. there is a lot left to do. i am very grateful for chair hall for supporting me when i pursued the chair and supporting me through this congress. also want to thank the committee staff that has supported me and our members. lindsay brossard, lily wang, brian hackneyed, anna martin, kelsey martin, chris martinez, travis kane, and vic handwritten. it is not an easy thing to turn over the chair. a peaceful transition like this one is a foundational lifeblood and a healthy democracy. as i like to say, you buy the ticket, you take the ride. the last few years in the seat have been a meaningful ride. i want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony in the members for their questions. the members for this committee may have additional questions. we will ask you to respond to those in ridings. under committee rule three all members of the committee must submit witness questions within three business days following the hearing and the hearing rattling will be held over for ten business days for these responses. if there is no further business, without objection the subcommittee stands adjourned. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no. it is way more than that. >> comcast is partneng with 1000 community cters to create wi-fi enabled lift services so students from low inme families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. >> comcast support c-span as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> fridays at ap am eastern, c-span brings you afterwards, from book tv, a program where nonfiction authors are interviewed by journalists, legislators, and others on their latest books. this week's -- offers his thoughts on how the u.s. can avoid what he calls the worst economic catastrophe of our lifetime with his book mega tracks. he's interviewed by wall street -- john pills in rough. what afterwards at a p.m. eastern unspent. listening to programs on c-span through c-span radio just got easier. tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio and listen to washington journal daily at 7 am eastern, important congressional hearings and other public affairs events throughout the day and weekdays at 5 am and nine pmi eastern, catch washington today for fast-paced reports on the stories of the day. listen to c-span anytime, just tell you a smart speaker, play c-span radio. c-span, powered by cable. >> up next, the u.s. postal service official testify on holiday preparations, the house oversight and reform committee. they were asked about the rising cost of services. the job performance of the postmaster general -- and the legislative proposal from representative carolyn