Event series. Hard to believe but we have been open 50 years this year. We have some great authors to share some time with us. Tonight we have giles milton, bestselling author of 11 works of narrative history. His most recent works work is churchills ministry of ungentlemanly warfare, being developed into a major tv series. He also published in 25 languages. He was in london and burgundy. He is in conversation tonight with editor of literary and market fiction and memoir, author of local girl and we wish you luck and the wild ride of publication. Acquisitions for holt include happiness which was a Reese Witherspoon and the parking lot attendant which is a New York Times notable book and shortlist. Victoria goslings before the room. Welcome, giles milton, good to see you tonight. Thank you, so nice to be here. Hello to both of you. Great to be here. I will let you get on with it. Giles and i will dive into the conversation rather than reading something. We have so much to talk about. That works for me. Wonderful. I worked with giles, it was my pleasure to read it a handful of times it was fascinating every time. It really does read as a thriller, a page turner, a wonderful book. The book is set after world war ii as the war was ending, during this time in four sectors in the book follows the leaders of those that germany was divided into and it was entertaining and shocking how many characters they were in this time. They are larger than life, felt i was watching a Quentin Tarantino movie. Wonderful detail. I am curious if you knew this place was famous for these characters and that drew you to this subject matter or if you discovered it when doing research and ran with it. So many books published about the second world war, hundreds and hundreds and nothing is written about the immediate postwar period and for me it is a fascinating period because the whole world is up for grabs. The war has been won by the allies and who will win the peace, this is a big issue. Stalin has all of Eastern Europe and Central Europe as well. Everything will focus on the city of berlin because stalin is controlling east germany. It is agreed to victorious allies, the brits and russians will share control of berlin but berlin sits squarely in the soviet control area of occupied germany. The tension and potential disaster and fallout that can happen, be set by the geographical position of berlin so western allies coming into the city are entirely surrounded by territory controlled by stalins red army. That is the setting for everything that will happen. It is a fabulously dramatic story that will unfold. Really is a fascinating situation. One of the great things about the book is giles makes clear what the stakes are right away. We understand on the human level the interpersonal conflicts and larger things that are at stake. You mentioned stalin is a character in the book and other villainous characters with helpful name recognition and real heroes that are fun to cheer for. Names i havent heard before but came to love by the end. I was curious if you had a favorite person even if it was one of the bad guys, colorful and interesting, even if they were doing that. If you had a favorite, a person you were drawn to, a person who captured your attention if you were meeting him. The main character in the book, and allamerican hero, being airbrushed from history is colonel frank howling man haole. He is going to end up as commandant of the american sector. A fascinating character, full of energy, dynamic, and hes determined to get his way in berlin, he finds himself left to head in a class with his soviet opposite number. They will never ci to eye. What is interesting about colonel haole is the americans and the brits, with instructions from the government to get on with soviet wartime partner. This helped win the war, governments in washington and london are determined to keep this going but colonel haole, when he arrives in berlin, the cold these are not allies. He writes in his diary and memoir, came to berlin thinking the germans are the enemy and i realized straight away the soviets are the enemy. The soviet commandant is thereunder instruction from stalin to kick the americans and british out of berlin. They want to take over the whole of berlin, the states are massive, the whole of europe up for grabs. And colonel haole is determined to prevent the soviets from taking control of berlin so enough about the story. What drew me to it is the wider political geopolitical battle taking place. You have stalin, roosevelt, truman, and the picture on the ground, a microcosm where it is fought between these commanders, but a personal way of telling a big geopolitical story. It does feel very personal and i knew these men so well is men, that was so well done. Haole has a heads up, realizing these men will not be his allies. Hes in conflict with his own country, what is the big turning point when everybody realized you were right, we are not going to come to an agreement, what is the big turning point . Haole is saying weve got to change policy. Winston churchill comes to america, truman invites him to make the famous iron curtain speech. This is a wakeup call to the world, churchill says stalin can no longer be trusted, these are no longer allies, we got to change foreignpolicy. Total scandal in america. The idea is to keep working with stalin. Churchill put differently, he cant be trusted. One of the soviet sniper clocks working at a soviet embassy in canada defects to the west and defects with a huge bundle of explosive documents that reveal soviets have been spying on the American Nuclear program, what is taking place with western allies developing a nuclear warhead. These two events are really important and the third thing, dont know how well known it is, george kennan, the famous diplomat in the American Embassy in moscow writes his famous long telegram, in a similar tone to churchill set out the facts that the soviets cannot be trusted. In 1946 these three things happen, with haole continually banging on the drum, this is when truman begins to change his foreignpolicy completely and you end up with the truman doctrine to protect countries threatened by the soviet union and followed by the Marshall Plan a dramatic turnaround in policy which is the idea to rebuild germany and rebuild germany in a democratic western form basically. Everything begins to change and haole is to play a massive role in this. He is in berlin seeing things firsthand and he can crank up this new policy and get the policy changed. The main guy here, my school had never heard of him. I love that i give him such attention and why is he more of a household name . The show was stolen by lucius clay. Everything that has been written was written about him and hes going to berlin today. Streets were named after lucius clay. Hes mentioned all over the place whereas haole has been written out of the history books really. During the course of this book i have one of his sons lives in california, pretty aggrieved over the years that his father never got the credit that he is due. Writes, its a wonderful read. I discovered in the arkpennsylvania, this massive diary which is wonderful setting up his single added handbook warfare really. So yeah, some people do get history and they take something to bring them back in again. You mentioned that archive and i know there are some, theres a lot of materials here. Some of them are new, youre using new materials here, documents that are cited very often and im curious about those relationships with the documents, what new, what you learn from them and kind of how you found them and the research process. I am a bit nerdy really. A lot of my life in the archives. Both in london and in d. C. , the National Archives there. Its quite interesting but those dont go into archives everyday. You often order up and you have very little idea whats going to be inside because the catalog records are not great. London, scotland yard, landed was sent to berlin to with a team of people to try and crack the crime ring. Detective inspector tom hayward, he arrives and berlin and basically finds himself investigating the biggest crime ring in the history of crime. Its absolutely fantastic, because this city is full of gangsters, x nazis, pimps, you name it. Theyve raided it as the last remnants of the first reich fell apart, they raided everything. They come up, lilian rare metals, works of art, every priceless thing. So, tom hayward is sent in there and works alongside the americans to try to bust this crime ring, and that was all in this file. In fact, then when i came to washington, there was another file on operation sparkler in the National Archives. As well, in washington. So, i was able to build a whole chapter of the book, the story of busting this crime ring. Just things like that are just fantastic, never written about before. Completely unknown territory. And that is one of the joys of working in the archives, you know. You do all of your Research First before you set your, you know, set pen to paper . Do you make sure you have all the information, all the citations, know exactly what type of shape its going to take . Do you write as you go . What is your process . I do the Overall Research. I know the structure of the book. I find im doing so much research, you turn your head to mashed potato. [laughs] i tend to have the Overall Research done. And then i will research a part of a book at a time. And then write it. Otherwise, it is impossible. You cannot retain much information. Another thing i love doing, meeting off and the descendants of these people. The british commandant who, a name almost as good as howley. He was called brigadier loony hein. I traced his elderly daughter, she lives in scotland, oh, i have got his archives in a suitcase in the spare bedroom. You know, why dont you come up. I thought that was an adventure. Yeah. It turns out she was countess corridor. She is a descendant of the mcbath family. She let me of the house, still that all the archives. Wonderful stuff. Of course, she had traveled to berlin at age 16 to go visit her father. Had her own memories of going into this city of complete ruin. Still dead bodies lying in the ruins. Horrific stories. Very, very powerful stories. Of whats berlin was like in 1946 and 47 when she went. There how far were you through the process of researching, i imagine thats a maze are fine. Finding this person who will kind of talk with you and give you this firsthand material. Firsthand stuff. How far were you in the process where he met her, when she was around . That was early on in the book. It was important discovery for me. I did not want this book to be a book about man. Because of the time period, it is obviously men dominated. The League Players are, they tend to be male. There is a story of the women of berlin. Berlin in 1945, when the red army arrives in berlin, berlin is a city of women and children. The men are either dead or they are prisoners. There are very, very few men in the city. I uncovered a lot, i have to say, harrowing memoirs, letters, diaries of the women in berlin who suffered enormously when the red army came into berlin. The soldiers drunk literally drunk on victory. They were drunk, they came through, they raped, they abused many of the women in berlin. It was very important, although its a difficult story to tell, its a difficult story to read, it was very important to tell that. This is part of the story. The trauma that women in berlin would live with for decades afterwards. It also explains partly why the women of berlin were so desperate for the americans and british, of course, later the french as well who came in. They were so different for them to arrive. To bring some sort of sense of order to this city. This is not only a city in ruins. Its a city without any governance at all. As a city without electricity, without gas, without water. Without anything. No law and order. So, the americans, when colonel howley and hines arrived at the city, bringing some 25,000 troops each, they are coming into a place of absolute and total anarchy. Its important for people to realize, just how trashed the city was at the end of the second world war. The whole of europe was trashed. Even when the armies arrived, all of the soldiers that they had never seen anything like berlin. Nothing left standing in the city. Theres such a fascinating contrast in the book between that complete ruins, you do a gorbachev job of laying out, and really in detail. I felt like i had a really vivid picture of what with that was. Like with the kind of opulence of some of the houses that the people took over. The leaders of the army that set themselves up and nice headquarters. Of course, stalin and vaccine set themselves up and some very posh settings. And headquarters. Im hoping you can talk a little bit about that opulence that you know the soviets kind of took for themselves. Soviets and the british and americans as well. This is really a tale of two cities. You have, on the one hand, you had the berliners. Who are starving. They are on minimal rations they are in a bad way the Western Islands putin, the soviets move in, they are lords of they have access to endless cigarettes, cigarettes become the currency on the black market. They have access to endless cigarettes, to alcohol, two endless sources of finance as well. So, they can buy absolutely anything they want. From sex, which is, that certainly one thing that the soldiers felt that they deserved after fighting their way through going. They can also buy any sort of food, any sort of alcohol. There are nightclubs that spring up immediately when the allies move into this city. You are right, they can also requisition any property they want. In the west of the city, where the americans and the british are, this is where all the great villas of the industrialists of berlin used to live. Well, the americans and brits arrive. With their requisitioning forms, they turn up at the door, they kick out anyone whos still living there. They take over these houses. The story of, i mean, its absolutely fascinating. The story of the highlight lived by both the western allies. But also the soviets, of course. That is contrasted. The banquets, the stories they ate so well. The champagne and caviar. Theyre almost parties. Its party time. The stories of that contrasting with the berliners on middle rations. Now, a lot of people would say well the germans deserve it they. Lost the war they treated their territories appallingly a lot of the americans and britishs and soviets like. Thats when you read the accounts of these women and children who had not had any part in the war, some of them had even been working for the resistance, you know. Wow, its a difficult story to read. When you say that the british command meant bring his daughter over, it was that an outlier. How much would you say there was family life going on for these generals and these leaders . Was that a oneoff . Or did that happen can you speak about that, how much their whole lives with them to berlin. By 46 and 47, the americans, brits, french they were all bringing in their wives. Partly to cut down on the sleeping of with a local berlin women. It has to be said. They brought their wives over, they brought their children over. They set up schools. Big, americans will set up in berlin. Precisely for the children. For people like pete hallie, the son of colonel frank hallie, he went to school and berlin. There is a huge influx. Things got very tense howley i dont know how much time we have to talk about the soviet blockade. As things reached crisis points, the americans and british relies, hold on, were in a really dangerous situation here. We have got women and children, lots of women and children, potentially stuck in a city under siege conditions. So, a lot of them left. Some of the left at that point. A stall and declared the berlin blur caid. That is fascinated. Again, all of this is drawn in such beautiful detailed. And brought back that contrast. And the mounting tension. It sounds like youve met at least two of the descendants of the men in these books. Were there any others you might . Was there anyone who is less excited to meet you, who is resistant to telling the story . Im curious to hear more about those relationships, and what they were like. How often it happened that you met a descendant. One i think is really worth speaking about. A bit like colonel howley, hes been written out of the story. The americans have often taken complete credit for the airlift. Justifiably, without americans man power in planes, the airlift could never have happened. There is a question, was it possible to feed a city of two and a half Million People by air . This had never been done before in history. You have got to remember, stall in the stove have declared a blockade of the western sets of berlin. Its been completely isolated. It is a bit like a medieval castle. The drawing up the drawbridge was. The americans, brits, french are stuck inside the sectors of the city. They have no access to the city. The road links, the rail links, are crossed soviet occupied germany, they have been cut. The only possible way of keeping the city alive, two and a half million inhabitants, is by air. Can this be done . Almost everyone says its impossible. I like to think in times of crisis, its good to call a true, good british eccentric. The brits do just that. They have this chap called regional why it. He is a complete mathematician. He is a brilliant mathematician. Never leaves home without his slide rule, his mathematical tables. He sits down. And works out if it is actually feasibly possible to feed the city by air. He believes it is. He goes to colonel howley and also to clay and says, this is my mathematical formula. For feeding the city. Its going to involve using six air fields in western germany, occupied by the americans and brits, and two air fields in the western sectors of germany. This is going to be the most extraordinary event in the history of aviation. This will require planes landing, flying in a five levels, into the city. Planes landing every few seconds of the two airfields. The western speakers of berlin. To keep the city alive. He has been, reginald weight has been totally written out of the story of the airlift. Particular American History of the airlift. He does not get a mention. His daughter has felt very agreed by this i had quite a long chat with her she, has a lot of documentation about her father. His role in the airlift. Like a senate beginning, the americans, without doubt played a major role in the air left. I like to think that, ive sort of rehabilitated this eccentric british puffin. Who actually came along and said it, is possible to do this. With such a wildly ambitious plan. Such little margin for error. Decisionmakers actions of the book. The sections dedicated to the airlift. You do a good job of painting how tough it would be to pull this off. Even once they discovered it is possible. It is still a big ambitious plan. Everything needs to go right. Youre just at the edge of your seat. One statistic really tells the whole story. An absolute minimum systems level for those berliners. They needed to fly and for an half thousand tons of food every single day. Around the clock. I decoder, a standard plane of the time, could carry two and a half tons. So that just gives some scale. Youre going to have to have planes flying around the clock. One thing aside, once they greenlight the airlift, this is where it gets really exciting. The americans from honolulu, to hawaii, everywhere across america, planes are brought in to western germany. Likewise from the british empire. From across the world, from india, from the pacific the, brits bring in their planes as well. This is mass convergence of planes and western germany. These are going to keep the city alive. It is a really kind of heart rending story. It really is. Its a beautiful, uplifting story. However on converged and did what they needed to do. And Work Together. It is really wonderful. It is uplifting and suspenseful to tame time. To see if they pull it off. Its really a wonderful story. A great section of the book. That is great. So, another question i had. If you are surprised by anything you learned. You know so much about world war ii. Youve written several books about it. This is your era, this is your era, your area. You have so much expertise here. Im curious, as you are doing your research, he thought, oh wait i was going to tell the story. I thought i was gonna go right here and i need to go left. I had this part of the story wrong. Something. When you are surprised as youre playing all this down. I read a lot about the big conferences, the big three as they were called. Which is the eel to conference. Which was when churchill, roosevelt, and stalin made in crimea. The other big conference at the end the more was the potsdam conference. Which is when stalin, churchill and truman went in. Roosevelt has died. They meet. What surprised me, the extent to which both roosevelt and churchill and then truman and churchill were prepared to trust stalin. They really believe that stalin was a man of his word. Stalin clearly had no intention once so ever of living up to all the promises he made particular the promises he made at yalta. By the time the war comes to an end, the red army has swept into Eastern Europe. Stalin has basically got everything he wants. Truman and churchill are really, theyve, theyre in a bit of a backseat there. Because a stalin has won everything he wants. Yet they go on wanting to work with him. Wanting to keep up this Wartime Alliance. And thats where the real tension comes in with colonel howley it on the ground in berlin. Saying, hold on, this is ridiculous. This guy cannot be trusted. He wants to kick us out of berlin. It is his persistence, really, that begins to change policy. That i found fascinating. Its all happening on a very personal level. Do you think that the other peoples, outside of howley, who is ready to be firm right away, do you think the other peoples resistance to stand up for him to stall and speak to stalins magneticsism . Or just to how eager he was to move forward without any more turmoil and fighting . Yeah, i think stalin, from everything ive read, it was an absolutely brilliant lets get it play in, he was a very, very evil individual. But he was a brilliant negotiator, brilliant at getting what he wanted. Youve got to remember, at yalta, roosevelt is a couple months away from dying. Hes a very sick man. They had to have some meetings ands bedroom, with him in bed, so, perhaps he was not on his best form. And churchill, likewise, i dont think he was at his best form. He was drinking unbelievably heavily at the yalta conference. One of his aides described him as trinket bucket fulls of champagne. Churchill kept saying of stalin, i like that man, i could work with him. Stalin use this to his advantage. I read also, after the conference, i read, very interesting lee, the soviet diplomats account of potsdam. They came away from potsdam think we won this hands down, we got everything we wanted. Im absolutely fascinated by stalin because he was so evil and yet could be so charming. And he seduced many people. The key cities both churchill and truman and roosevelt. Its fascinating. Were almost out of time, were getting the heads up that were going to move to some audience questions in a minute. Last question i have for you, i think we have time to slip on more in is, you know, this is history that took place a very long time ago but one thing thats fascinating about this book is that it also shows how we got to now. The legacy of this time has led both indirectly and seemingly directly to the way we live now. And im curious what you think the most Lasting Legacy of the events that you cover in this book is today . I think, our relations with russia are almost at a new cold war period. The Russian Ambassador to the uk described them as close to frozen the other day. I dont think the story is gone away at all, i think its everpresent. How do you deal with this country . Particularly now, that youve got putin in charge, completely lawless band of gangsters running a place. Its a very relevant story, what do you do. We came out of the events in my book was nato, which was to guarantee the safety of the west for the entire cold war period. So, its interesting to look at how our relations with russia are going to a vault over the next few years and how we, as the west, who Work Together to contain this very volatile situation inside russia. To do, again, what we did in the book. It makes you realize how big characters count in these big, historical episodes, i think. Character plays a major role in these big, dramatic events in history. Absolutely. And thats one of the best, one of the things i love the most about the book. That that comes through, how much these individuals shaped history. If it is their disposition to their habits. Im gonna turn over to the, questions because we have our first audience question. The first one is from carl. He says, where theyre any minor characters you wish you couldve spent more time on, telling their stories . Any minor character is. You come across so many in the course of your research, and its very difficult to know which ones to focus on. Some of the soviet ones i think it wouldve been nice to provide more information. Its difficult to get access to the russian archives these days. But one little story that i was quite pleased with in the book and which i managed to get from the russian archives, because i have a very good friend whos russian and did some of the research for me, was the story of the small platoon of six men, six soviet soldiers, who broke into the reichstag and capture the reichstag, fought their way up to the top floor and hung out the soviet flag on the roof of the reichstag. Like so many of the stories in the book, the stories of the six men have been written out of history books. They never got the credit they deserved. Stalin had promised that the first soviet soldiers to enter the reichstag and the ones that we capture the building would be showered with metals and awards that everything. These guys, mikhail is one of the characters. They never got anything, they never got any recognition and they felt pretty bad bitter for the rest of their lives. Its stories like that that, i dont know, i feel, sometimes, youre giving very belated and often posthumous credit to people who achieved remarkable things. And felt bitter that they never got the credit in their lifetimes. , so thats one of those little stories. Charlie would like to know how did the pandemic affect your writing of this book . Did it make it more difficult . I was extremely fortunate, and i know many rioters who had a real problem during the pandemic because obviously all the archives, closed all the libraries closed. As we said earlier, i sort of do my research and then i write the book. Who work that with the every, search a writing sometimes. But i do when i go to the archives these days as i go and i photographed everything of interest. And then loaded on to my mac. So, i have absolutely everything i need. I have thousands of documents on my mac. That is very fortunate because i had all that i was able to really, for me, the confinement was time just to bury my head and getting stuck into the writing really. But yeah, i know so many rioters who basically missed a year of the writing lives because they were able to do any research during that period. So i was very fortunate, indeed. I remember, you are right on time with the delivery date, even though the pandemic was happening. So many authors were sat behind their schedules, we were ready right on time. I remember reading the first half of your book on the fourth of july, and it was like the whole country was closed in a way it never had been on the fourth of july in my lifetime. There is very little celebrating in the way that were used to, no parades or gatherings. So, it was a nice way to be celebrating the 4th of july when i was, you know, a lot of our usual traditions were moot. From our g, but is your favorite archive, do you have a favorite archive . Which is my favorite archive, that is a very tricky one. I like, in london, we have the Imperial War Museum. Which is our great museum to warfare and all of the many wars that britain has fought over the centuries. Their archivist good because it is largely diaries, letters and memoirs. So, its the stories of individuals. For me, these individual stories, these stories of men and women who often are not very wellknown but achieved remarkable things of their own lifetime, these are the stories that interest me. More than the collections of all the documents of state. Which, of course, are important and interesting for the framework of the book. But what really gives the meat to the book is the stories of individual accounts. People who are in berlin in july, 1945, when the americans and the british arrived. And remember, it recall, it describe it. All the details of, it with the weather was, like what they for lunch that day. Those sorts of Little Details really enable you to just bring life to the story. So, the Imperial War Museum as one archive like that. I suppose, really, the army archive in pennsylvania is another one like that. Because, unlike kenora, the National Archives in d. C. , theyve done other way to collect diaries and memoirs. Thats where i found colonel howleys complete set of diaries. He writes in great detail, not just about the politics of berlin at the time, but what hes wearing, with the atmosphere of a meeting was like, you know. So, all that is absolutely wonderful. It should be said, where these four men, these four commandant, they met every week in this building called the kommandatura, which is the for sectors of government for berlin. Whats wonderful for the archives of the kommandatura is that every single word every spoken in that room by those four man has been recorded for history. Because there were secretaries and stenographers writing down everything. And you can trace the progress from cordial politeness into just absolute, outrageous arguments between howley and kotikov. And theyre all recorded, all sat down on paper. So, that was a wonderful resource as well. Really sort of gripping. If you like youre in the room at the time, when these explosive rows are taking place. Its an absolute miracle they didnt start punching each other, really, because by 1948 there at each others throats. That is really fascinating. I didnt realize that you could listen to these, thats very cool. Mary would like to know, did this book affect your view on world war ii . Well, and certainly shed a very different light on the sort of Wartime Alliance, which is a story that absolutely fascinates me. When america and britain went into alliance with the soviet union, this was the most Unlikely Alliance in history. American britain, just a few decades earlier, they had their own troops on russian soil fighting against the very people now in power, with whom they found themselves in the Wartime Alliance. That whole side of things is absolutely fascinating. Of course, it ends explicitly and that really is how the book ends as well. With the blockade, the airlift. When this Wartime Alliance falls apart in quite dramatic fashion. Wonderful. Well, thank you, i think thats all for viewer questions. I want to thank Caroline Zancan and giles milton for joining us here at Tattered Cover book store. Explore having us. Well, before you go, can you let us know where we can find you online . Giles, take it away. My website is very simple, w w w dot giles milton dot com, just my name. You can find me on twitter, giles milton one, on twitter. And the book itself, well, you can buy it anywhere. At great independent bookstores, of course. Barnes and noble and amazon as well, of course, they all have, it is available. So, if youve enjoyed this top, well, id love you to go out and buy it. And, also if you enjoy the, book please lever of you wherever you leave your reviews. Its very important for me and for others to encourage them to read the book. Id be grateful if he did. That i just say, anyone who hasnt read it in for a real treat. Its rich, fascinating stuff. Well, thanks so much anna, for having us on. Its been a real pleasure to be able to talk about. It thank you for joining, us thank you. Watch more history of holidays online, cspan. Org history. Tonights Program Inside the cold war, welcome to tonights program. Inside the cold war, why it matters. Im james greenwich, curator at the Military Museum and library. I will be your host for this evenings program. Which is being offered jointly by the pm l and the International Spy museum. Im joined today by colonel chris costa and dr. Hammond. Colonel