Transcripts For CSPAN3 Generals Patton Rommel And D-Day 20220807

Educational and Cultural Exchange between the city of kahn and normandy and the city of alexandria here in virginia. This is the first of two programs that we will be hosting this year for the 78th anniversary of dday. Tonight is my pleasure to welcome back dr. Holian. For our 12th annual dday commemoration lecture dr. Kim bernard holian was a professional historian with the us army for 34 years where he received commendations from the late John Marshall secretary of the army and president ronald reagan. He is the recipient of the 2008 joseph l harsh history award for the Northern Virginia association of historians and the clover recipient of the 2016 T Michael Miller alexandria history award from the alexandria historical society. His father served in the Us Army Medical as a medical officer during the Second World War and took care of many dday wounded on their return to england later serving under president Dwight Eisenhowers medical staff. We were fortunate to have dr. Holian. Join us as a lecturer last year and in 2019. Tonight dr. Holian will speak on patton and rummel . The missing generals of dday well have time for q a afterwards and then well invite everyone to join us downstairs for a reception. And now ladies and gentlemen, madam and messiah dr. Kim holian. Thank you very much. When i was called earlier this year about doing tonights program. I asked. What do you want . The program to be and they said something different. And something short well will definitely be different and well try to be short to leave more time for q a which is just as important as what ill be saying up here tonight i come. From an old army family my wife comes from an old navy family. Come that big game in december it gets a little bit. Touchy as to whos going to win and whos going to lose a course for those of you that are lucky enough to be married, you know, the wife always wins, so well leave it at that. Tonight were going to look at the two most famous generals. From the eto european theater of operations that when you talk about dday. You talk about World War Two in europe or north africa. You end up talking about George Smith Patton jr. Or irwin rummel and theres certainly the most two famous generals. That werent at dday on dday. In may of 1944 rummel is walking along the beaches of normandy with his loyal aid captain helmuth lang and he turns to captain lang and he says lang the first 24 hours will be decisive. For germany as well as for the allies it will be the longest day. With that in mind, lets go to slide number one. I would do the slides, but im probably going to blow up the room if i do that. There we go. Well, wait a second. I thought we were talking about dday. And thats a viking ship up there. And whos that guy in the costume who looks like he should be at the queens anniversary. Well normandy is named after my viking ancestors. Who came down . And saw the most beautiful countryside in the world on the beaches of normandy perfect for their rating along the european coastline and settling in and so they came around the year 900 ad. And were smart enough to stay. The next century one of them was william duke of normandy . And he would lead the last successful invasion of the british isles. And that would be in the famous battle of hastings in 1066. So it all goes back to a bunch of norwegians and swedes who didnt want to eat ludafist anymore up in scandinavia, and they came down. So they could take part in that wonderful french cuisine and they decided to state just like relatives who come for a weekend and stay for a year. You cant get rid of them. Khan our sister city was mentioned. Con is the most important city in the province of normandy. Why is that not because its our sister city. Because it is a road hub. And as a road hub, ladies and gentlemen, it controls ingress and egress from all of central and eastern normandy. If you control khan you control central and eastern normandy. Western normandy is where the americans would land thats critically important, but it doesnt have the road network that khan does and whats so important about that road network . It goes straight east to paris. The diamond of france so consequently if you take con youre on the road to victory to paris. George patton is next to the bat. Pat instead if the proper study of mankind is man the proper study of warfare are maps. Patent like rummel is a connoisseur of his profession. And hes studying maps and studies maps and studies maps. If youll go to the movie patton with George C Scott. When hes flying from england into france. As he complains with all the other spare parts after the normandy invasion. What blue book is sitting on his lap take a quick look in gold lettering. Its the Norman Conquest of england all about william the conqueror and how he developed a road Network Infrastructure in normandy to enable him to build a base of operations to invade england in 1066. Patent knew that he knew the allweather roads that william the conqueror had built 900 years earlier. Nobody else did but george did. What about George Smith Patton jr. When his family immigrated over from scotland . They came locally to fredericksburg and they married into the humeruser family. You can go down down to old town, fredericksburg. You can see the humeruser medical apothecary shop. Its still there. He was a very famous doctor during the revolutionary war with the Continental Army personal friend of president , washington. Patent patton wants to go to west point in the worst possible way. But he has dyslexia. And its not until age 16 that he can read and write so before going to west point. What does he do . He goes to vmi to prep for a year. And when he walks into the tailor shop at vmi to be fitted for his uniform the taylor says oh mr. Patton, i fitted your father. Heres my log book and you have the exact same measurements of your father. And you say your grandfather went . To vmi. Ill get his measurements. Theyre the exact same as yours in your fathers this reinforces George Pattons belief in reincarnation. He goes to west point. But he has a little bit of trouble that first year so he has to repeat it his plea beer. So he ends up graduating in 1909. In 1909 this fine looking young gentleman in the lower corner erwin rummel starts his apprenticeship at the officer cadet school at danzig on the baltic. Thats now known as gedans in poland. And romo graduates in 1913 and while hes there. He meets and falls in love with his dancing instructor. Lucia mullen and her heritage is shes half italian and half. Polish i believe. And they are deeply in love and this will come back to haunt rummel on june 6th 1944. The great war comes in 1914 and what happens George Smith Patton jr. Is the Training Officer and then the combat officer for the First American tank brigade in their first attack and he gets severely wounded in his glutamus maximus. Thats his backside. Now patton receives personally from general of the armies purging the distinguished service cross. He also gets the distinguished service medal. And in 1932 when their first issued hell get his purple heart. He has an illustrious career in world war one. Erwin rummel is a young officer in the german light cavalry the ulons and hes wounded in front of her done in 1914. He goes back to recuperate in a hospital. And then when hes well enough for combat again, he is transferred to the alph front in the elk mountains. And he surprises a small contingent of italians numbering 7,000. And he takes them prisoner with his company of 200 men. Because hes commanding gabertier mountain troops. Very elite. And then a little bit later on in the alps. He has given command of a battalion of 700 men and he captures an Italian Division of 10,000. For those two accomplishments on the battlefield. He is given the german equivalent of our medal of honor the poor le mare. The order of merit so these are both very distinguished young officers coming out of world war one. Wait a second. Whats that . Thats pearl harbor being attacked. How did we switch from the army to the navy . Ah, George Patton, hes always up to something. Now in 1927 patton is the Intelligence Officer the g2 for the Hawaiian Division in pearl harbor. And when he transfers out for his next assignment, he writes a summary intelligence report. And in that report he says. The japanese will attack pearl harbor on a sunday morning around 7 30 and theyll do it with naval aircraft. Coming in from the southwest course they came in from the northwest, but otherwise and were 30 minutes later than his proposed attack time, but Everything Else he was right on the money. Thats because he was a student. Of history lived eat breathed history all the time now later on. He was stationed just up the road here four times at fort myer. Next to Arlington National cemetery in the mid1930s. Its not well known but he was the executive officer. He built the old post chapel. So many of you have gone there for weddings and funerals. Then he became the Commanding Officer and where you go to patton hall the Officers Club at fort myer. That was his administrative headquarters from 1938 to 1940. What happened to erwin rummel between the wars . He is retained in a miniaturized german army the reich fair only a hundred thousand men. You know you had to be the cream of the crop of an officer to be retained in that german army. He has many assignments all of which he handles is extremely well and then in 1937, he writes his memoirs infantry attacks. Now when you watch the movie patton and patent is there in north africa towards the beginning of the movie and hes asleep in that luxurious bed, and he is a book spread out on top of his chest. When Sergeant Meeks and the aid come in to wake him up saying general wake up. We just got word from intelligence that pat or that rummel is going to attack. And patent rears up in his bed. And yells out rumble you magnificent i read your book. This is the book that he read. Now this book. Will cause the death of erwin rummel seven years later and well go into that in a moment. But this book brings rummel to the attention. Of hitler and hitler says i want that cracker jack officer to be in command of my fewer escort. My personal bodyguard of 500 men thats what happens. World war two comes with the german invasion of poland in september of 1939 what happens . Rummel is there in poland with hitler hitlers right up almost on the front lines. Under combat conditions and theres a long line of we used to call them in the pentagon strap hangers. Staff officers escort officers one of whom is a nazi lackey by the name of martin borman. And hes hitlers right hand man. And bormans a vicious nasty nazi as bad as they come. And he and rummel have a running. Because rummel is the officer in charge of security. And borman tries to put his car ahead of rummels following hitlers open mercedes touring the battlefront in poland and they were coming under combat conditions. Rummel shuts down borman borman never forgets that pulls out his little black book. And says get revenge on erwin rummel one day. Thats coming in 1944. Rummel does so well in poland that hitler gives him a command of the seventh Armored Division for the invasion of france. And that division performs magnificently. Its known as the Ghost Division because it races from the rhine river. All the way to the English Channel faster than anybody else. And because rummel does so brilliantly in the French Campaign of 1940. Then when there are problems in north africa with the italian troops facing the british troops. In egypt and libya what happens hitler turns to rumble and says general rummel, i want you to go down to north africa. Take two light tank divisions. And straighten things out for us and thats where he gets his great reputation as the desert fox. He is absolutely brilliant because he uses tanks in the sands of the desert like a good navy admiral would you ships at sea . But how does he do this . He has an ace up the sleeve that is not known about for a long time and well touch on that in a minute George Patton. Meanwhile in 1940 leaves fort myer and goals and sets up the Desert Training Center in south california and in southwest, arizona. And you can still visit a large part of it today part of the park systems out. There. It is outstanding. It is a brilliant concept only George Patton could have set up such an outstanding Training Center because you fight as you train. And thats why the troops that go through that Desert Training Center are properly prepared for combat. Now in 1942 in november patton leads the american liberation. Of northwest africa operation torch he goes into french, morocco. And then later when things get very very sticky in tunisia eisenhower calls on him to save the day in tunisia, and once again patton pulls eisenhowers bacon out of the fire so to say and eisenhower will turn to him later in the war and say george every time i get a promotion i get attacked and george responds ike every time you get attacked. I save your bacon. They knew each other very well. Now a course George Patton will go on from north africa to the invasion of sicily. Where he beats one of the finest units in the german army the herman gary division. Which is given a verbal reference in the movie. Patent knows how to command he knows how to use history. He knows everything there is to know about warfare, but he has a trick up his sleeve also will touch on in a little bit. Then the great invasion is getting prepared. That patch you see is that the patent war . And that a lot of gis. And others war its foose. God United States army group. I understand if you can find one of the originals of these its quite valuable now fooscog was the phantom army that was set up under patton. To keep the german 15th army at calais for the invasion. The german 15th army numbered about 75,000 men. They sat just to the east of the province of normandy and they could have come right along the coastline and rolled up the allied invasion. If it wasnt for George Patton with his phantom 5th phantom First Army Group there because the germans were convinced especially hitler that patton would lead the assault at calais because its only 20 miles from calais to the english coastline and its the most direct line from calais to berlin. Theyre thinking textbook. George patton thinks outside of the textbook now you see an aircraft there. Thats a british typhoon. What happens . To rummel is this airplane here . Rummel is back visiting his wife on june 6th in germany. Why because its her birthday and the german weather officer said the English Channel will be too rough weatherwise for eisenhower to cross not realizing that Group Captain stagged the scottish weather officer had given eisenhower a window of opportunity to do the landing landing and eisenhower rolled the dice. And made the great decision for the landing on june 6 after it had already been postponed from june 5th. Now this is critically important for rumble because he has to race back in an open staff car. From wittenberg germany in south central, germany across the rhine through france to normandy he gets there and finds out that the allies have lodged a beachhead. Remember what he told lang . The first 24 hours will be decisive. Now rummel is not fighting just eisenhower and the allies and montgomery and the british. Allies he has to fight hitler micromanaging him. From back in germany and he has to fight fun runstad. As to whos going to control what units and what theyre going to do fund runstead had never fought against the allies. And theyre overwhelming air superiority and overwhelming naval superiority. He had no realization mentally that he could not move his reserve units up to the front lines. You cant do that in the daytime over the open french roads. If the allies like this, typhoon fighter attack aircraft are controlling the skies and shoot up everything that moves. Now late in july rummel is riding through the normandy countryside trying to patch Work Together a defensive line against the allies. And a british typhoon sees him a target of opportunity. And they come down on a strafing run with their rocket pods and their machine guns. And rummels car is hit and flips over remember. Its an open turing car. Rumble suffers a cracked skull loses his left eye. His cheek is crushed. Hes out of action. Thats on the 17th of july. We know how the rest of the war goes patent drives through france saves eisenhower at bastogne. Goes into germany almost into czechoslovakia. Rumble doesnt make it that far. But both end up dying because of automobiles now rummel is the first one to go supposedly according to his chief of staffs by dell. Who will become a big shot in the postwar german army the bundesfair . Speidel turns rummels name over to the gestapo because spidell is up over his eyeballs in the assassination plot against hitler and that plot takes place on july 20th. Three days after romulus wounded. And speidel tells the gestapo when they come to interrogate him. That hey you ought to look at erwin rummel, you know he what was going on with the plot and he kind of acquiesce to it and etc. Etc. So spidell. Is later arrested put in a concentration camp escapes almost at the end of the war and then resurfaces and becomes commanding general in the bundesfair and very big in nato. Rummel is brought before two nazi lackeys coming down from berlin in october of 1944. And they tell them that you can go to a public trial. And if that happens your family will be in jeopardy or you can take the cyanide capsules. That we brought with us and your family will be spared. So like the officer that he is and was he takes the sinai to protect his family this memorial that you see is put up on the roadside down there in wittenberg where he took the cyanide capsules. George patton up there you see the car from the accident in december of 1945. When the war ends in may of 1945 patton comes back to the states for victory tour on the east and west coast. He also tells his daughters the night before he flies back to germany for occupation duty. I wont be coming home alive. Strong premonition i wont be coming home alive. He knows something is up. But what is it . This accident takes place on december 9th 1945 patent seems to be recovering from it because he kept himself an excellent condition. Mentally and physically but he dies of a supposed embolism on december 21st, 1945. Hes buried in the American Military cemetery in luxembourg, which was his choice. Heres an interesting factor. Eight years later mrs. Patton dies of a brain aneurysm writing a horse. She was quite the equestrian. Riding a horse. She has a blood clot in the brain dies. She is cremated and her ashes are taken by the two daughters ruth ellen and beatrice over to papas grave as they called him. And the night before theyre to come back to the states. They take the urn of ashes. And quietly and silently walk by the generals gravesite and he has a standard gi headstone. Nothing more nothing less. And they turn the can of ashes. Upside down and they spread her ashes over his gravesite the next morning. They take an Army Staff Car back to the airport to fly back to the states and they asked the driver to go by the American Military cemetery and luxembourg won more time. Oh natural request he drives by they look out the window and there is a cat sitting on top of papas gravestone. They are thrilled. Why because mrs. Patton was a great believer in egyptian mythology. And then the egyptian mythology ladies and gentlemen, the cat is the goal between between this life and the next. So they knew that that was their mothers spirit visiting papa and it pleased them to no end. Now most of you have seen the movie patent 1970 George C Scott brilliant production. When my father had his first massive stroke after he was stabilized next door here at the old alexandria hospital. He was transferred in early 72 up to Walter Reed Army medical center. His roommate was colonel larry devlin who had been a staff officer with patton in the war. He was a retread from the first war when he was in the navy then he saw the light and came over to the army for the second war. He was a colonel. He was a tremendous tremendous human being. And he said when he saw the movie. He said kim. I thought it was the old man himself. Thats how good george c. Scott got the movie, but you have to be very careful. Of certain factors in the movie because the Technical Advisor was general of the army, omar bradley. And there is a scene in there just before the start of the german counteroffensive in in the battle of the bulge. Where bradley phones patent and he says george i got to pull that tenth Armored Division from you and he says, oh brad. Im got a bridge across this our river into germany. You got to let me go through. No george. I got to have that somethings going on up north and we got ike wants all of us to meet it for done tomorrow morning. Be there at 10 00 sharp. Well the verdun meeting took place. And that part of it is accurate. But theres a little twist of history going on there. When the word came about the german counter attack in the ardennes force for the battle of the bulge to start in december of 1944. Bradley and eisenhower and montgomery and some other Senior Officers were having a card game. And bradley was eating his favorite food, and he didnt want to leave the card game or the food. And he just poo pooed the german the initial reports the german counter attack. Eisenhower is the one who jumped up and said no, this is something serious. I got to get to the phone right away and then everything followed from there. So you got to be a little bit careful about that particular scene. Now this other one james mason portrays rummel and brilliantly this is the desert fox 1951. Its a complete british production. And the brits really know how to get inside the german mindset. Brilliant mason does rummel better than anybody else before or since . But whats important about the movie is the man who wrote the book that it was based on and then as Technical Advisor for the movie Brigadier General Desmond Young he had been a light colonel taken prisoner by the africa corps in north africa. And he had a chance encounter with rummel that saves youngs life. And thereafter he becomes fascinated with rumble because of his brilliant exploits as a senior officer and then his tragic ending because of the nazis. So after the war is over. Brigadier general young and youll see this at the beginning of the movie goes to everybody that fought with or against rummel especially in north africa. And he goes through all the official records such as were declassified at the time. And he puts together the story of erwin rummel. And it the book and the movie are firstrate. Why . Because its done only six years after the end of the war and it has what the germans call. Zeitgeist the spirit of the times that you cant capture today daryl zanek with the longest day and a bridge too far. Thats too hollywood aversion. Go back and watch this movie on the desert fox. Then youll find out about rummel the man. And rumble the officer and how he stood up to hitler. What about books . Years ago there used to be a great tv series. Major Film Productions by the library of congress at the end of these they would say in the library of congress recommends. Well, these are a few recommendations here. Patent by carlo dst is superb because its the most one of the reasons its the most uptodate biography. And they were both west pointers and carlo di st. Did a whole series of books on the war in europe basically centering around but not exclusively on patent. Also highly recommended as a mystery book on patent. If you want to find out about patent the human being patent the man or as rummel says in the movie dimensch. Tell me about the mitch the man. Dont just give me a bio sheet to his aid. The button box by Ruth Ellen Patton pattons daughter theres more insights in that book than you can shake a stick at also anything by Martin Blumenson. Who was on patent staff as a historian . I knew martin bloominson at the center of military history. Cracker jack person willing to sit down and share history. Explain history first rate. Up. What are we doing here . Weve got Cliff Robertson and david soul. With a belly dancer between them. The key to rebecca remember a few moments ago. I mentioned the ace up the sleeve that rummel had and later montgomery had in north africa and patton had also. Signals intelligence now we know that today by the cold phrase ultra. Ill be one of the very few people you ever meet that worked on ultra when it was still ultra. And every time and i had a top secret clearance in the National Archives and every time we ran across the word ultra on a page. Just like in a hollywood movie. We had to stop. Close the ledger book where the cables were in raise our hand. A person known as a team leader who had a clearance about top secret top secret is not the highest level clearance. Believe me. And they would come and we would open up the ledger book with the cable grams in them. And they would take out that page put in a blank page. Date stamp it initial it. Put a marker on that ledger book and then he the team leader and i would then go to a big safe and he would open this sucker up like something out of a hollywood movie and put the page in there. And so i could certify that he had done that because ultra was still classified above top secret at the time. Here is the ace up the sleeve. The American Military attache say in cairo in the early part of World War Two was a fine officer bonner fellers. He was sending back all the information the british gave him two general marshall the chief of staff across the river in washington at the water department. He was using the british cold to do it. Unbeknownst to general fellers unbeknowns to the british high command unbeknown to general marshall here in washington. The germans had broken the british coal. So its like sitting at a table playing a game of poker. And your opponent is sitting behind you as well as in front of you and he can read every card you have but you dont know that hes reading it. What an intelligence coup . And rummel is able to get that information out of cairo. And he goes all the way to alamein and then the british figure out whats going on. It took him only two years. And what happens they pull the code change codes and all of a sudden rumble is operating blind. What am i to do . At the same time the british and americans have broken the german cold. And so now they know everything communicationwise going from berlin and rome to to rumble in north africa. So now the tables are reversed. And they can sink all of rumbles supplies coming from the mediterranean into north africa so rummel is always short on gasoline always short on ammunition always short on tanks. Short of everything and the americans are pumping huge amounts of lindley supplies into the british 8th army in egypt huge amounts. I mean, they outnumber rumble in tanks Something Like ten to one in artillery Something Like 12 to one aircraft seven to one. Its just astronomical. So rummel is forced to retreat. Patton will use this signal intelligence to great advantage both in north africa, sicily and then in france and into germany. Hes a connoisseur of the use of intelligence tell you how he did it. This is a first time anybody anybody will hear about this because i was told from the source themselves. A very good friend of mine at the center military history, dr. Robert wright. Was good friends. With kent roberts greenfield and forest pogue at the center of military history before i got there. But in particular dr. Polgan dr. Polk was with the American Army in europe in 194344 and 45 as chief historian in the european theater. And he said every night in france and in germany. After dinner patton and colonel bratton would walk out into the middle of a field and they would talk. And then they would walk back to the headquarters tent now colonel bratton is somebody or all familiar with from the movie torah torah. Once again pearl harbor comes into play because he is the Army Signals Intelligence Intelligence Officer in the movie. Who tries to alert . President roosevelt and general marshall about the japanese attack coming forth on december 7th 1941 so later in the war the real colonel bratton not eg marshall, of course. Is then assigned to pattons headquarters as his ultra Liaison Officer . And thats how it was done. Now the key to rebecca was made from ken folletts brilliant. Novel in the old adage many of truth is set in just im here to tell you many a truth is only said in fiction. Read ken full it the key to Rebecca David soul and Cliff Robertson did excellent job on it. I was lucky enough to have a private lunch with david soul many years ago when he was going to do a sixpart miniseries on the civil war and he asked me to be his Technical Advisor, unfortunately. He sold the rights to that many series to gregory peck. So peck play lincoln, but he was very serious amateur historian, and he really wanted to do a good job much like he did here in the key to rebecca. This will give you insights outside of normal history books. On how wars are really one and loss remember sun tzu . The chinese warrior philosopher 2500 years ago wrote all warfare is won by deception and deflection. Thats what intelligence is all about. The legacy the legacy of patent and rummel lives on and on and on in the top right hand corner top left hand corner. You see pat and son Major General George Patton. And he is commanding us Army Seventh Corps and struck art. And hes being greeted by the lord mayor of stuttgart mount freed rummel. And they became best of friends and Mansfield Rummel became best of friends with field marshal montgomery, son. Now they have all passed away, but they took that legacy like a baton in a relay race and they turned it over to their daughters. And the lady holding the dog is general pattons daughter the granddaughter of the world war ii general patton. And the lady in the white trench coat is rummels granddaughter. The daughter of man freed rummel and here theyre greeting in american World War Two veteran at a commemoration ceremony. So theyre passing the torch. Of the western nato countries which today we find so critical with the tragedy ongoing in the ukraine. And thats the legacy of erwin rummel and George Patton. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, sir, if you have questions, please come over to the microphone and ask them so they can be picked up. Thank you. I was wondering if you had any theories regarding why patent never made it to where he should have been and and how he could have been dispatched with a leg injury. Everyone thinks everyone thinks that on the outside that is looking into the military that its one. Happy band of brothers. No. Theres a tremendous amount of rivalries depending upon where you got your undergraduate degree. Was it . West point was at vmi was at norridge. Was it the citadel etc or like colin powell were you rotc . And its like fraternities. So its not a happy band of brothers and theres a tremendous amount of rivalry so thats part of it. Youre asking about pattons death and would seem that he couldnt survived. Well, he was surviving and he was recovering they even had told him that he was doing well enough and had stabilized they were going to prepare an airy medical flight from luxembourg backed or from germany back to the states and the family thought he would be home in time. If not for christmas for new years. And then all of a sudden he develops an embolism and hes gone. There are many Unanswered Questions about patents accident and his death. I can tell you from having work two and a half years top secret in the National Archives. Said its to me. Very suspicious that the accident report went missing almost right away. That the army young soldiers involved in the truck part of the accident. Were flown out to england the next day. Theres a lot of loose ends. That leave me itching. And as my personal philosophy as a professional historian for 34 plus years. I approach every situation as sherlock holmes. And i always try to use that plus. My top secret background and work. I spent nine years with the army general staff and the pentagon. I flew with them on Helicopter Missions and whatnot. My father was a career army officer. He went from buck private to Lieutenant Colonel on ikes white house medical staff for five years. So i was raised in that environment and theres just too many loose ends on patents accident and his hospitalization and then the followup or lack thereof. It leaves me itching a scratch. And im not satisfied with what weve seen so far. We used to have an expression at the archives mia. I know that means missing in action, but in the archives, its called missing an archives. And ill give you an example. I havent talked about this publicly. I worked out at suitland. We had at that time eight football fields of National Archives records at suitland now its a long time ago and they could have a gazillion football fields full of records now. It looks just like what you see in raiders of the lost ark. Except its all paper floor to ceiling endless. We had a fellow out there whos a heck of a nice guy. Young College Graduate everybody enjoyed his company. He didnt work in my section. He worked in a nonclassified section. And he was all of a sudden not there. And i thought gee maybe something happened to him. So i made an inquiry what my acquaintance friend what had happened to him and i was told didnt you know . He got quietly transferred. Because he burned a cart load of permanent records that were courtmartial files. Never supposed to be burned. Never never. And he had taken them to the incinerator made a stupid mistake and burned them. So he got promoted and transferred. So eventually he recycled back to suitland he was there for a while then he was gone again. Nothing said so i made an inquiry again through a mutual friend and gee what happened to so and so didnt you know . He burned another cart load of permanent records. These were colorado territorial land records. Permanent records never supposed to be burned poof gone so things like that do happen. Next question go ahead. Brahmel was not a party member. I was just wondering was that common and in the german general staff . Yes. Rummel was a shrabian. He was from the province of wittenberg in south central, germany. He wasnt oppression. He wasnt a von. He was not a Nazi Party Member never was he was under hitlers. Spell hitler was like the pied piper of hamlin. He was a magician. He could well, ill tell you what happened to me one day at the center of military history. Im walking down the hallway. Approaching me is mr. Von ludicial. He had been a german. Officer a midlevel staff in combat officer he had fought throughout europe in the war. His family was german nobility. They werent prussian, but they were vons. He was the most handsome man. I ever saw. He came right out of hollywood central casting and he had a Million Dollar personality. And because i was born in stuttgart, im a swabian like rummel. And we got to talking many times. So one day im approach each other in the hallway and i stopped him and i said mr. Vaughn ludicial. Tell me what was hitler like. Because you had lunch with him many times before he took power when you were student in munich. In the 1920s and he would sit there at the beer garden or at the restaurant and you too would discuss politics and the german situation economically. He looked at me and he said kim. Hes your height five ten. He said but hes thinner by 20 pounds. Well at that time, i weighed 170 so put them at 150, which was my football playing weight up here at hammond high school. He said but everything hitler had was in his eyes. He said once his eyes locked on you he had you. He had that. Mesmerization ability he could he could almost cast a spell on you and hold you. With his eyes this goes to abraham lincoln. In that lincoln said you can fool all of the people some of the time. And some of the people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Hitler took in rummel on a personality level initially. But rummel eventually came to see the light. Of the evil and the corruption in the nazi regime yes, sir. Hi, this is this is not not a patent rommel question, but rather a question about historians in the military, and im wondering you mentioned that there was a historian assigned in europe in World War Two. I was just wondering if you could sort of comment in terms of what what sort of what would their role be and what sort of access would they have and how would how would that work . Doctor force paul had complete access. To the high command but of course youve got to remember the high command is fighting a war so they just cant sit down at the lunch table and lean back in the chair and talk with you. They had full access to the Staff Officers who do the work. Make it flow. They could see the commanding general in action and maybe occasionally get in a question a q a with them. Eisenhower himself set up the entire army History Program because of the civil war official records of the war the rebellion. After world war one eisenhower is chosen by general fox corner who was pershings operational genius in the aef in france. To be his aid in the panama canal zone so they would go out on weekends on horseback trips. You cant believe how primitive the canal zone was in the early 1920s. And they would go out on tours inspecting areas for defense and preparation of camps and training. First night out fox conner says to ike ike what do you think of history and ike jumps up now. Ikes got a Million Dollar personality. Hes also got a Million Dollar temper and he jumps up at the campfire with fox connor goes i hate her straight. Connors really taken back because eisenhower is considered an upandcommer. And he says ike why do you eat history . Because when they taught it at west point it was nothing but memorization of dates and names and places. There wasnt any flesh to dry bones. Fox conner said i want you to go over to my saddlebags. I want you to get out the two books in there bring them over here. He goes over and gets the book springs him over. Memoirs of Phil Sheridan says i would like feel to read those and when we go out on an inspection, we trip two weeks from now. Will discuss it over the campfire well. Anybody whos been in the military knows when the senior person says i would like for you to read this. Youre going to memorize every word. Believe me. Well two weeks later they go out again. And he says ike what did you think of sheridans memoirs . Isis general connor, i loved him. All the problems he had we have today. And i was able to read his in his memoirs how he worked through the solutions on these various problems, and its so helpful it gave me great insight. Fox conner says to eisen our ike i want you to go over to my saddlebags pull out the book in there comes back. Memoirs by John Brown Gordon of the Confederate Army who went from buck private to Lieutenant General and was a big caller for reunification at the end of the civil war. He said id like for you to read general gordons memoirs and tell me what you think in two weeks and thats how eisenhower became a connoisseur of history. So when World War Two starts. And he has made supreme allied commander. For the european african theater of operations he tells general marshall in a cable. I would like to set up a History Program to turn out a series of books allah the official records of the war of the rebellion. Well general marshall knew exactly what he was talking about because marshall was a connoisseur of history having gone to vmi and graduated from vmi and his Favorite Book was on the civil war. So he knew exactly where eisenhower was coming from and eisenhower was his protege. Hook line and sink are top to bottom. So he said by all means they went to the various universities throughout america pulled out outstanding history historians and military historians and put them to work people like martin bloominson forest poe kent roberts greenfield who turned out the 80 volume green series known as the army green books on World War Two. Now the only shortcomings those green books have and its not their fault. They didnt know about it couldnt help it. They dont include anything on ultra. Because it was all classified. And it wasnt let loose until around. Lets see. I left the archives in 79 so sometime after that 80 81 82 because the british let loose on it. Otherwise, its probably still be classified. So those historians Martin Blumenson was with pattons third army. And so i knew him very well. He wrote anything you can find that he wrote in a military or history journal any book that he did is going to be a plus. Kent roberts greenfield was a plus force pulled did the four volume and wars of general marshall those guys are a historians, but again, they didnt have access to ultra. Now i can tell you every month at the center of military history. We would have a brown bagged lunch and we get a outside speaker to come in the head of marine corps history one time. We had the german naval attache come just after ultra was let loose and one of the questions that he answered was. How does this new information about ultra . Change the german history naval history writing of World War Two. And he said it changes everything. We have to go back and rewrite everything. He said arent you doing the same . No . We havent gone back and inputed ultra into our official histories. Which i think is a shortcoming. But then im not in charge of the program. But well, this has to be our last question, but im gonna combine two from from zoom. We have two questions. When was the picture on the top left taken and stuttgart and second what role did romo really play in the hitler plot . The pitcher and the loft top left of Major General patton and lord mayor mount freed rummel was taken in the 70s. I talked with general patton once on the telephone. Professionally courteous very brusk you would not enjoy having a lunch with that person. I never got to meet lord, mayor rummel. But he had a Million Dollar personality from what i understand. And ramos rummels roll in the hitler plot of july 20th to kill hitler ive mentioned spidells role in turning rummels name over to the gestapo now, of course never having been interrogated with the gestapo. And never having been a married man in nazi germany where the gestapo would think never think twice about going after your family. You have to be very careful how you think people should react in that situation . The fact that rummel knew about something was going on. Probably so yes. He may have heard rumors rumblings. Ive been approached once or twice and so what are they approaching me about . And secretive meetings are going on. Its overplayed a little bit in the 1951 movie the desert fox. But then again if you take a look at a picture of the dedication of the rummel barracks. In the late 50s early 60s and frau rummel is standing on the left of the photo and next to her is spidell. The look shes giving him would have buried him 20 feet down. A picture says a thousand words. I think he knew about it. But like one ronstad says in the movie the desert fox. He says when asked to participate actively in the plot, he says im 70 years old. Im too old to change. Tell your friends i wish them well. Perhaps that was a long rummels line. Remember again and again, and again rummel was not oppression and he wasnt a nazi. He was a swabian and south germans think and have a completely different cultural mindset. The north germans or the prussian class i can tell you that. When i went back to visit germany after i graduated one of the people that my parents had befriended significantly and live next to us down in augsburg. Specifically took me one day on a trip up in the alps. And i can still recall walking down this mountain path. To a beautiful wooden chalet hand built and coming out of it was again a guy that looked like from central casting. Tall muscular darkhaired handsome outdoor features and carl huss turned to me and said this was the reason for the trip by the way, he said kim these are monvar i and overfell beveled rummel in africa. Said kim this man was an nco with rummel in the africa corps. They still had that much pride in rumble as a man. And serving with him and under him. And the nazis poof i dont think i need to do much to introduce Doris Kearns Goodwin to you. I think you all know who she is. She started out in brooklyn. And then she wound up here on long island what that rockville center, here we go, but shes a red sax fan, although that wasnt true in her younger days. You want to learn about her and her father that she wrote a wonderful book. Whats it called