Transcripts For CSPAN3 Elliot Ackerman The Fifth Act 20221105

And history series event with acclaimed author walker correspondent and decorated veteran elliott. In conversation with journalist kathy gilsenan. So tonights event is presented by the associate authors at the j, which is a new partnership between the library and the jcc. As you may know, our library on lindbergh is now under construction and i think the wrecking ball comes for it next week. So during the time that our new building is being built, the jcc has offered us the use of this gorgeous facility here for our author event. So many of our events be here for the next year and a half. I you guys will join us a lots more. I also want to let you know that cspan is here tonight recording for book tv, which i think is so cool. So you guys can watch this again on book tv in a couple of weeks. I also want to recognize our bookseller Left Bank Books saint louis is the oldest and premier independent bookstore. Left bank has eliots books for sale in the back of the room, and he will sign back there as well after the talk. So on the event our author this evening, Eliot Ackerman, served five tours of duty in iraq and afghanistan in both the infantry and as a Marine Corps Special Operations Officer for his military service. He is a recipient of a silver star, a bronze star and a purple heart. Elliott holds a masters degree in International Affairs from the Fletcher School of law and diplomacy and served as a white house fellow under president obama following his military service, elliott worked as a war correspondent covering syria and afghanistan. His reporting was featured in the new yorker, the atlantic, the new republic and elsewhere. Eliots literary writing includes the novels green on blue, dark at the crossing, waiting for ian and 2030 for garnering comparisons to the work of Graham Greene and earnest hemingway, andre debuts the third described green on blue as one of the finest literary debuts i have ever witnessed. His second novel, dark of the crossing, was one of the first major works of fiction to address the Syrian Civil War and was nominated for a National Book award. So i always say that eliot has the best bio of anyone i ever introduced. Its awesome, though. Incredible. So tonight, eliot is here to discuss his new book, the fifth act a history of the American Invasion and occupation of afghanistan, as well as personal reflections on his own efforts to aid in the evacuation efforts of former colleagues and other afghan nationals during the fall of kabul. Our conversation partner this evening, kathy gilsenan, is a st louis based contributor for the atlantic, where she often reports on national security. She previously served as an at World Politics review and she is the author of the book the helpers profiles from the frontlines of the pandemic. So now, please help me welcome Eliot Ackerman and kathy gilsenan. Hello. Hello, how are you doing, eliot . Good, thank you. Welcome to saint louis. Were glad to have you. Very good to be here. So you happen to be here on the one Year Anniversary of the fall of kabul to the taliban. Were you surprised when this happened and why. First of all, thanks so much for having me, kari. Thank you so much hosting me again. Its great to be back in saint louis. This city always gives me a very warm welcome, which i really appreciate as we sort of transition back into doing inperson events. So its really nice to be with you all tonight and it was not planned that we would actually do this on the one year. So i think its sort of serendipitous that were here tonight. And i was thinking about what i was doing last year and i was actually, of all places in my mother in laws kitchen with my wife. And i just sort of turned on the tv and was catching the headlines as kabul was was falling. And my mother lives in florida and i was heading back up to washington to grab my kids because we were going to go on a long planned family holiday to to europe. So did i think at that point that kabul was going to fall . Yes, its it seemed as though it was trending that way, but that was only after like the preceding 2 to 3 weeks of every city, major city in afghanistan, falling to the taliban. And you knew things that. Yeah. And you knew things that other people didnt know having been there. But but from our perspective, i think news consumers, for instance, in saint louis, missouri, the numbers didnt make sense because wed been told you know, there were 350,000 plus wellequipped Afghan Forces compared to 75,000 taliban. Right. Then in april 2021, when biden announces hell be out of there by september of afghanistans 400 districts, the taliban controls 77. The government controls 129, and the remainder are contested by june. Intelligence officials are warning newspapers that the government might have only six months to hang on after having said, you know, they have two years to hang on. By july, the taliban controls 195 districts. By august, well, im wondering, based on your experience training and working with Afghan Forces, you know, you didnt you expected the fall of kabul by the time it happened. But were you expecting it that quickly . And what do you think accounted for it . So war is a science, but it is also an art. And like since i left the military, sometimes people will say to me, like elliott, its so odd that like youre and youre a novelist and a writer. Now, that seems like a strange pursuit for someone whod been a soldier to to engage in and actually, i think its very intuitive because when you are in the military, you spend much of your time preoccupied with the psychology of the person that youre fighting against, because that psychology really matters. And so as a, you know, as a novelist, you spend a lot of time preoccupied with the psychology of your characters, like imagining your way into other peoples heads. So i only bring this up in response to your question, because sometimes we get too fixated on the scientific aspects of war. How many tanks, how many troops you know, how much ammunition they have, like all of the things, how many how many districts are controlled and what is it . Whereas war is political and its political. Its psychological, you know, exists in peoples and their spirits in the nepal. I and this is not like news, right . I mean, you know, clausewitz said politics is war. Our war is politics by other means. Napoleon said in war the material is to the or sorry the moral is to the material as three is to one. So moral factors count for three times what material factors count as so when we sit there and we see all these numbers trotted out in from other stories like, oh my god, how did this afghan army sort of melt away . Its important to keep them. They melted because of the psychology of the war, the politics of the war, the fact that they collect there was a collective belief that they were not going to be able to hold together front of the taliban. And so it didnt matter how many guns, troops you had, it all just melted away. What did you make at the at the time of the. And then well to the actual book but of military commanders explanation that the afghans had lost the will to was that convincing to you based on your experiences or did you feel that perhaps there was a little bit of buck passing going on there . I think sort of both. I mean, there was there was buck passing going on there. You know, that it if you just take one step back, its sort of, you know, its sort of tough to take it seriously when americans as were as leaving the country, are telling the afghans that they lost their will to fight as we ourselves have lost our will to fight. So everyone sort of lost their to fight. So i think, yes it is true that i think in a macro sense, the afghan army and the afghan Political Class sort of lost its ability to cohere, is what i would say. And because they could not cohere anymore without america, they lost their will to fight. But if you go down to the individual level, i mean, there are many, many examples of afghan units like basically fighting to the last man, particularly Afghan Special operations units, their commando units. You know, it also saying they lost their will to fight elides the fact that when we said we were pulling out, we pulled out all of our enablers so like their aircraft there close air support, their medical evacuations, the helicopters they relied on the logistics. They relied on their ability to maintain any of that vanished because when they brought those aircraft back to air bases, the contra who were helping them, you know, fuel them and turn wrenches on them, you know, were western contractors are now being told that they were going to leave. So i dont feel like to say, oh, they just lost the will to fight and theres nothing else to see here is is an overly simplistic answer. But the will to fight certainly matters. Something that i think has been you know, if we look at this thats been so fascinating is to afghanistan and juxtaposition, you know, with ukraine. And thats a place you do see a society that has cohered and does have this very deep will to fight. And when we talk about numbers, you know, particularly in the early days of ukraine and the popular analysis was, it was, well, this small Ukrainian Army can just not hold against this massive russian juggernaut coming across its border. But actually, when you look in ukraine now the number, the numerical advantage, ukraine does not lay with the russians, it lays with the ukrainians, like the russians right now are struggling to meet conscription goals like they do not have enough troops. And putin cant do National Conscription without. Declaring his special military operation actual war. Whereas ukrainians yes, they dont have a big army, but they have a nation of Million People that is completely mobilized. So they basically have a 40 million person strong army against the russians. So i just bring that up as an aside is again how you think about the numbers really matters. Yeah, this brings us to the opening scene of your book, the fall of kabul. I believe your book opens about five days after the fall of kabul. Youre on vacation in italy with your family and your phone is blowing up with desperate folks trying to get out of kabul to the airport and out of the country. Youre touring the roman ruins. Your kids are complaining about all the walking and youre in real time via whatsapp, trying to pluck people from the ruins of this american experiment. Were you trying to evoke a theme of fallen empire. Or was this just kind of where you happen to be when this is happening. First of all, if chevy chase is watching, im sort of hoping they might optioned this book for like one of the national lampoon, european vacation movies sometimes because sometimes certainly i certainly felt like that. But in the we have cspan. Yeah, exactly. I it was so as i mentioned, kabul fell as i was taking my kids, our sort of end of Summer Vacation as it fell and my experience, i think, is in no way unique know its not unique. My entire network was just lighting up with people who needed help or were working to get folks out but you know i was also trying to be a you know, a father and a husband and be present for my kids. So to me, you know, if you pick up the book, youll see it kind of juxtaposes between episodes of my of my past and time that i spent in afghanistan on and in the present am i present is evacuation is happening couldnt be further from afghanistan. It is this very nice that we are taking in rome of all places. And i you know, yes, it difficult not to recognize the fact that im, you know, walking through the baths of caracalla or the with my son, you know, kind of ambling through these ruins of an expired empire. Im watching what, you know, when i look at my country i would say seems like episode of very late empire behavior as we watch the end of a 20 year war. And its impossible not to put those two in juxtaposition with each other and its also you know, it was important to me to have that in the book because i think for many veterans, it was so jarring to be i mean, i left the wars in thousand 11 and to be sucked back into it in this way where youre kind of trying to live your postwar life. But all these relationships and all these places that had such resonance you ten years before are suddenly immediately in your life again. And the people youre close with, i speak, i say in the book, you know, that i met my wife after the war, so she didnt know me during wars and my kids didnt know me during the wars. And theyre sort of getting this into kind of tads past life. Thats thats an interesting question, too. Its like you use the phrase just now, postwar life for you and you write in here, youve written elsewhere about how these wars have shaped you. Is there any such thing as a postwar life . Well, trying to. Yes and no. Like because youre going back to war as war correspondent. Yeah, yes. Yeah but it is different to be to write about war than to be a participant in war. I mean, i feel like the stakes are a little bit different. And and what i do is certainly less risky than what i used to. But you know, people have sometimes asked me how, you know, like eliot, how did the war change you . And i think for anyone who sends someone off to war, theres always this sort of fear that they will come back change, which is an understandable fear when i sort of reflect on that question, how did the war change you . I actually dont even know how to answer that question anymore because the war didnt really change me. I think the war made me like its braided. So deeply into who i am that like i cant untangle who i am from the war. Its kind of like asking someone like, how did your mother change . You go, my mother, me, like, you know, i am of i am of my mother, i am of my brother and my family like, you know, so, so, you know, i went off, i kind of got on this path to go to war when i was 17 years old. I mean, im 42 today, so so i cant tease it apart. So maybe thats because i guess you dont completely have a postwar life because i cant have a postmetoo life. But the really acute of it, it did feel like i was being being pulled back to that and having to look at this thing one last time where i thought i kind of had closure. Yeah. And its interesting, you use the word braided because the book is very the book is braided between your your present and your past. And it takes place in five acts interspersed, your work on the evac you on the evacuation with your work in country, both with the marines and with the cia. Why did you choose to lay the book out to structure the book in that way in five acts specifically to write so. So the title of the book is the fifth act the spy what amazon will tell you. Its not in the dramatic arts category, but it is available for purchase in the back. But you know, so thats the title of the book came was actually not not long after i was sitting in my mother in laws kitchen, florida, i got a i got a phone call from a friend of mine. She runs like a very like a very substack and she was like doing something, you know, she was putting together something. Shes scrambling to cover. Yeah, very. Guevara called me and and and she said, hey, elliot, im getting together like five or six people to just sort of write short essays about what is happening in afghanistan. You know, could you give me 500 words . And i was im like, feel i feel overwhelmed. I dont want to write 500 words about this right now. I like i dont think i can do it. And she was like, yeah. And so we were kind of going back and forth. Shes like, come on, i would do it. Like, listen, its, its im like, what do you even want me to write . And shes like, well, i mean, you know, people just havent been following this, theyre watching this. And they just dont understand how we got here in this whole thing is a tragic and it was her use of the word tragic that just sort of made me think of, you know the daunting task of trying to summarize 20 years of war in 500 words which you know just tough but that idea of tragedy i was like you know if you look at classic dramatic structures from like shakespeare to horace, you know, the the epigraph for the book is horace, you know, tragedies typically told in five acts. And so the short piece i wrote from her was like, okay, im going to write, you know, a little bit about each of the president s know bush, obama, trump, biden in the fifth act is going to be what comes next to the taliban, the sort of, you know, the tragic denouement. And so that gave me sort of a frame to start to start to thinking just thinking about what was happening over these 20 years. And i actually hadnt planned to write a book i wrote by her 500 words and thought nothing else of it. And then i got a a phone call from my book agent, my editor and they sort of said, hey same thing, like people are watching this, you know, maybe this is a chance to, like, do a short paperback, original, you know, just some, you know, ive written a lot on the topic and yeah, will we get it out quickly and i said, okay, good, we can do it in the fall and left for this. The two weeks that are basically chronicled this book. And then i came back after kind of being involved. And so, you know, the five acts of the president , theres also a really five set piece of accusations are in the book. And after being involved with and i called my book here and said like, i think this needs to be a really different book. I think it needs to talk about what happened these last two weeks, which is like frankly for me it was like nothing i had ever seen before in my life. Yeah, lets, lets get into that a little more because its not over. Its an its in a different maybe its in a different act right now. But the evacuation is not over. And you have organization so so no one left behind is an Advocacy Organization that works on these evacuations. Theyve been tweeting out that say there are over 160,000 special immigrant visa afghans. So that means theyre eligible for special visas for having worked translators, etc. U. S. Forces, eligible afghans still left behind 74,000 already in the pipeline i believe that means that theyve already applied, but they cant but they cant get out. I guess just talk to me about what this has been like for you as youve continued to work on this. But maybe start with those dramatic events and how it was that it felt to individuals to try to get these people out with the each i would say each one of these sort of set pieces that are in the book and they they end differently, i would say, when i kind of first get pink to like help or be part of it my initial reaction, im not coming clean here clear and im coming clean here. Is theres no way all these people going to get out. No, its going to work. The very first one was a another friend of mine whos an editor. Um, kind of said to me, he said, he said, its been passing really good what nic is doing over there. This is right when things were stopping, i was like, what is nic doing . And nic is a friend of mine whos a writer, a journalist who covered afghanistan and said and i call it. And nic, what are you doing . And he said and he basically said to me, he said, hey, listen, do you know where i can get half 1,000,000 for a private plane . And, you know, thats when i said, like, theres no way this is going to work. And that was, you know, in australia august, that was probably august 16th of last year. So what started happening was people were, you know, crowd sourcing, like gathering steam to try to just figure out how do we get people out. So instance, one of the early things that came up was the afghan girls robot team. And many people want to working on this case, but like there are a bunch of folks in silicon valley, you who had real means, who wanted to get these young women out and they were able to raise a bunch of money for a plane very quickly so that plane now you had a private jet that was going to fly into kabul to bring young women out. But there were more seats on that jet. So who was going to be on that jet . So youre so my friend nic, for instance, was making manifest raising the money to do that. Then the question becomes, okay, well, how are we going to get these people into the airport . Like the airport is a complete zoo. The marines at the marines hadnt even shown up at that point. The taliban have taken over the city. Um, and so that became a question it turned out another one of the journalists who was sort of on this group chat had written book about the taliban and he knew many key members in the taliban and he said, i can get them through kabul. Um, but what happens when they get to the airport and then you sort of the same thing, crowdsource theyre not, you know, came to me and im like the military guy amongst a group of journalists. Im like, i bet i probably know some of the guys at the airport and i start sort of my networks and, you know, lo and behold, i do know the guys at the airport. And so we you know, i just give that as an email. That was sort of how things were coming together. And all of this is happening over, you know, signal mail and whatsapp. I at the time was in italy. My friend nic, uh, a journalist, he in for he was in france staying with another journalist, luke mclaughlin, from the new yorker. Um, and i, another friend of mine whos very helpful and this was in virginia, um, and then, you know, and they were on the phone with folks in afghanistan who are afghans who fought with us to include and then to include my former interpreter whos in is in austin, texas. So i dont think i dont think a war has ever ended this way before. And i bring this up like what we were doing was in no way unique. There were Little Pockets of people. I mean, so many of them trying figure out how to get folks out. And that does so these these at the same time that their stories, you know, each of these evacuation is in in this book. And among all the all the other people you to particularly in the veterans community, a lot of folks in saint louis worked it you know where this city is trying to welcome 1500 afghans here alone. You know, as much as theres individual heroism and moxie and like resource awfulness in these stories, it strikes me that its a massive institutional failure that caused all of you to have to step up in this way. How were you thinking about that, then and now . It was a total i mean, you know, some people have the word ive kind of come down on to describe what happened is collapse. So it was a collapse at a number of levels. I mean, it was a clear it was a sort of clear collapse of american confidence because youre just sitting there and youre like, how is it coming down to this pick up squad of people to get afghans who werent loyal for their own government and the American Government four years out . And these are not like, you know, these arent just people who want to like these are people like worked at the embassy. I mean, like real people with deep i mean, people who had real ties. So sort of a collapse in our and our competence as a country because there was no state Department Email or phone number, you could say, oh, call this number, someone will help you. Theres nothing a a i think sort of a moral collapse. And so, like, you know, we had made many, many promises over 20 years to folks and were basically saying those arent going to be promises kept. So so i think, you know, theres obviously theres a moral side to this. Theres a collapse of time because suddenly i felt like i was being sucked back in. Im a big movie buff and the line i kept uttering was from the godfather three. If any of you have seen that movie and its one michael keaton. Yeah. He says, just when i think im out, they pull me back in talking about the mob. So, um, and then strangely a collapse of hierarchy because its the is the kind of days start progressing and we had some our group kind of had some success and people were just sort of filter ing into us. And so i was at, at times on the phones with like retired four star generals and admirals who had run the whole war, who couldnt get their people out and. So they were sort of, you know, were all in it together, like crowdsourcing it. But there are times and my wife says a number of times where shes, like, listening to me talk to, um, at one point general allen on speakerphone, were kind of, hes trying to open a gate for us and its like three in the morning in italy. Were in our hotel room. Were exhausted because we spent the whole day with four children running around. And its like the, you know, the second or third day we found without a full nights sleep. And im lying there with my phone on speaker and im like, you know, general allen calls and im say, hey, sir, how you doing . And hes like, hey, eliot, quite a situation we got here. Sure. Do you think you get that gate open for us . Well, im try and like, you know, and my wife runs there and shes like, its just so you know messed up that this how its ending like i she shes like i cant believe this and i think for her and she sort of acts a little like a greek horse in the book. Um, she was, she, i mean, shes always been a very important voice in my life. But this one, she was sort of important because you, youre almost kind of like an a like someone whos been in an abusive relationship for 20 years. Like you just cant see the abuse anymore. And shes, like, talking, this is messed up. Like, you you and you like if youre dealing with this, like there must be veterans across the entire country who are dealing with this and the psychological, you know, just mentally where its putting you, its just not its not a good. So anyways, my word is sort of has been collapse for what happened there just sort of a massive failure a massive collapse. And many people did see it coming. So there were folks people like, you know, congressman seth moulton, peter mayer and others who were ringing the bells with jason crow, ringing the alarm bells as loud as they could, but to on deaf ears. Yeah. A quick shout out to your wife who does come off like a total saint in this book. Shes great and yeah since you bring up seth moulton theres theres a scene in the in which the two of you hes hes a millennial as well right were about the same age or like an old one again. Were all millennials. Yeah. So so theres a scene in the book where the two of you are talking about and hes a veteran as well. The two of you are talking about a global war on terror memorial. And i believe youre going through a jog, going for a jog talking about this. And he says, you know, if i were going to design it, it would be something that starts out with great intentions. And then spins off into chaos. What you do and you have what what is your idea for a war on terror memorial and. Oh, so he i were talking about it. Were were contemporaries from the marine corps and so, um, so a number of years ago, maybe some of you know, this didnt happen with that much fanfare. Congress authorized the global war on terrorism memorial act. So the memorial has been for a war memorial on the National Mall. And theyre still kind of sorting through the details but one of the things that was interesting in getting that passed. Um, and seth and, uh, congressman gallagher were, the bipartisan cosponsors of the bill was they had to get a special exemption, which was pretty difficult to do because in u. S. Law you are not allowed to build a memorial to a war thats still going on seems to make sense but the war still going on. The war on terror. But were 20 years into it. So you were, lets say, my age when the war on terror began and serving in the us military, you know, youd be 62 now and maybe you want to see your war memorial in your lifetime. So it makes sense that they tried to get it, but it sort of poses this question of how do you a war memorial to a war may never end. Um, and so that got me thinking about the idea and doing some research into it and. One of the things i never realized was that War Memorials, the mall, which i think when we think of the National Mall, we of like, you know, the lincoln memorial, the washington monument, and then, you know, vietnam, World War Two, all the War Memorials scattered across it. But its actually a relatively recent advent that there are War Memorials, the mall actually the Vietnam Veterans memorial, which i think was inaugurated. I 1983 was the first war memorial on, the National Mall. And since then youve had korea World War Two and and our National Mall is sort of become like, you know, i like those memorials, but littered with War Memorials. And the idea of building more War Memorials. Its sort of whats you know, is it appropriate that our National Mall just basically becomes a national scene, not like it should be a National Graveyard . Is that what we want to celebrate . So theres been a lot written about this. Theres been a lot of debate and certain architectural circles about this that i never knew about. So i was sort of thinking, well, what would be like, you know, how would i do a memorial . And i was like, you know, then so what settled on was, um, you know, if it was up to me, id actually get rid of all the War Memorials on the National Mall, um, and i would combine them all into one american war memorial, and it would sort of, it would of look a little bit like the Vietnam Veterans, and that would be a black granite wall. And one of the things that gets debated with all of these memorials is when you build something, it obviously the view that people have on the mall. So so we have to have that debate. Again, this memorial actually wont be built up. Itll be built down like its going to get its were going to dig down into the earth in my memorial. And i think thats fitting because one of things you learn how to do in the military is how to dig in. And its going to be like a fix, almost like chronically. Were going to dig down sort of like something out of dot day, spiraling deeper and deeper into the earth and this black granite and on the wall will be the names of the more than a million american war dead since the revolution, with the first one being Crispus Attucks was a black freeman who was killed at the boston massacre. The boston massacre. And were going to go chronologically the way down. Digging, digging, digging, digging, digging. And then in my war memorial at, the last name when we passed the legislation then there will be two things. Theres going to be a desk and a pen. And by law, the president when the president signs a Troop Deployment order, he or she can only that order with the pen at bottom of the american war memorial, and theyll have to walk by the more than million names before they do it. So anyways, ive the sketches, if anyones interested. Its just speaking of a war that never ended. You mention also in the book that every person who has fought these wars and left them has had to declare war over for themselves. Obviously afghanistan is over, but iraq arguably not over. Were still in syria. Were still in a number of different places where we havent had the same kind of political momentum to just get all the way out right. And you continue to write. There has been no single piece rather have been thousands of separate peace deals that each of us who walked away from the war had to negotiate with our own conscience. So what was that negotiation like with your conscience . And then i want to to what you what youre here about the national conscience. Whats with your idea of this war memorial . And i think i right after that and of those peace deals that all of us have had to with ourselves have been more enduring than, you know, some have been good deals. Some have been not a good deals. I think what im implying is that thats what makes the wars has made it difficult in that and i you know, and i write about this at some length, the book and you know, one of the people who was very helpful without first group of evacuees is was in one of my very best friends from the military. But, you know, when i made the decision to leave and he still serves in the special operations, you know, it almost ended our friendship. So so because, listen, you know, before the war used to end, i mean, it it was just over. And you went home, you know, whether it was World War Two or, you know, even a war like vietnam, there was a definitive end for so long in these wars. The way it ends is when you basically say, listen, im not going on the next deployment. Your friends like, yeah, i know you guys are all going back to afghanistan, but im not going. Im going to go do Something Else and its difficult to explain that to people. You serve alongside. And you might be surrounded by the most Understanding Group folks you could imagine who love you. No, what . But you know, they going to take off and go and you could potentially could be there. You could still be there with them if you wanted to. If you made a different choice. And it becomes particularly complicated, you know, when your friends are still dying over there. So, you know, not only that, i decide not to go, i decided not to go. And then my friend died over there and ive had that experience. I dont think that is in any way unique experience. And theres certain psychological burden that attends that experience and, you know, the way weve waged these wars places that psychological burden on on a lot of veterans and it places that you also point out that this was a different kind of i mean, its a different kind of war in a lot of ways, but a especially in the sense that it was fought by all volunteer military with deficit spending. Right. A lot of us a lot of us out here didnt really bear of these these costs that youre talking about. And you have a line that you would rather be part a lost generation than a lost part a generation. What did you mean by that . They said two things. So theres a wars used to be right pretty generationally defining events. Like like i mean my my parents, the vietnam generation, theyre called the vietnam generation because of that war, you know, you have the greatest generation from World War Two and you have, you know, lost generation was the first world war. I was 21 years old when september 11th happened. The wars in and afghanistan were not generationally defining events. They did not define my generation. People i meet who are my age are Walking Around saying that was the thing that really, you know, set them on the course for, what their life was going to be. So so i say not part of like a greatest or a lost generation. I was actually i have felt like at times is the lost part of a generation that. I am kind of this little subset, you know, the people in that experience we are. So this, this sub strata of, our generation and i think of the reasons for that is how these wars were constructed. So in from revolution to the present day, every war america has fought has had a construct to sustain and by concert to sustain. I mean, in terms of blood and treasure, those are two things you need to sustain to have war. So lets look like the american civil war, for instance, the construct of that war first ever drag left is in the us civil war, as is the first ever income tax that we have in this country. The Second World War is a National Mobilization and we also have a war bond drive. Vietnam war, as you mentioned, very unpopular draft leads to an Antiwar Movement that ends that war september 11th happens and america is going to go to war again. So what is the construct that we put in place to sustain these wars . So in terms of the blood, these wars are fought by our all volunteer military, the treasure. Theres no war tax. We put it on we put it into the National Deficit. The first year the United States or the start the last year that the United States, a balanced budget was 2001, not coincidence. One third of our National Deficit is the bill for these wars. So the result of having wars that are sustained by an all volunteer military and funded through deficit spending so theres no war tax is that the American People are anesthetized to the cost of war. Its not like, you know, people in america are bad and dont care about veterans and dont care about war. Its just like if youre not asked to do anything, if you dont have a Family Member whos volunteered to serve and youre just, you know, living your life, the war doesnt touch because it doesnt touch you. Guess what . It goes on for 20 years. It becomes an that politicians dont have to worry about because americans arent caring it. So if youre a politician, youve got this very long leash to go off and wage war. And its not a coincidence that these wars span four presidencies, republican and democrat. Its not a coincidence that if you actually you know, when you look at the parties frequently through over these past 20 years, like they actually hasnt they theyve disagreed about everything but the war actually sort of agree because its politically the political buoyancy of the issue is sort of neutral. So of the quote, just the question i ask rhetorically, as we get to the end of 20 years is like how like Going Forward do we want a construct that gives our politicians this extremely long leash with which to go wage war or do we want to like keep them a closer like on a little tighter leash and not let them go and get us into 20 year quagmires like this. It is interesting that the political question is interesting though because there were one, two, three americans elected, three president s in a row who who promised to end the wars. Right. How how do you how do you evaluate that . I mean, clearly, the wars are unpopular but theyre not unpopular enough for people to actually demand that their president s do what they promised to do until we get to biden. Right. Well, i mean, its also how much how much do voters really care about the issue . You know, like whats the intensity with which the voters care about the issue . And i would argue the as the war progresses, the you know, how much people care about the issue diminishes. So like, for instance, the 2004 election. Yeah, this still an issue people really cared about. I mean, iraq, national security, terrorism like it was in the forefront of peoples minds. And i would argue in obamas, uh, both of obamas election, i think it, it definitely featured in those elections. I wouldnt say it was the dominant issue, but it was definitely an issue that mattered. Rasmussen had a poll they put in the field in 2018. They picked 2018 because this was really before trump started negotiating with the taliban. So its sort of like the absolute low point for featuring in american consciousness. And this is before the midterms. They estimate concern about the issue of afghanistan and how they ranked it as a priority. And for i think its 44 of americans. Its not that they didnt care about afghanistan. They cant even say at this point whether we were still fighting a war they like. They just dont even know. And thats not because those are bad people. Its just theres no reason for them to care. And it sounds like you blame politicians to some extent for this, because because also keeping mind. In 2014, obama declared combat operations over right in afghanistan like the end of major combat operations so im tracking all the end of major combat operations. Right, 20 years. And we were talking back there about how in 2003, Donald Rumsfeld went to kabul and declared major, major combat operations over. So so to some extent, its its not i you know, far be it for me to defend the American People, which i do. But like their politicians are telling something thats like you knew that major combat operations werent over. People were still americans were still fighting and dying over there. But our politicians were doing this sort of verbal jujitsu to kind of make it more politically palatable by not calling it a war. Yeah, theres a lot i mean, theres a lot of blame to go around after 20 years of war. And theres a lot of verbal jujitsu that politicians do with regards to how how they speak about war and sort of Wishful Thinking around war. I think what was i think one of the you i write about this a little bit in the book. Like one of the things we really i think has screwed up as a nation and weve done this in successive wars is we have the wrong the wrong side . We have a short psychology and the short our short term psychology causes us to a very long term war. And you know what i mean by that is let me give you a visual representation. Um, if you were to go to, at any point of the war, if you were to go to kabul or to kandahar, which is sort of like major, you know, bagram air base, kandahar airfield, major Nerve Centers of the american war, afghanistan. One of the things you might note is that many of the key headquarters were built out of a very specific substance. They were built out of plywood years, years into the american war. They built out of plywood. If you walked around afghanis and to many of these airfields, which the soviets also occupied in their time, which half of our time there, they were there for ten years. You note the soviet buildings were still there. They were built of concrete stone. And so this idea that we had built in plywood, you know, it was it was very predictable. The american psychology, its like were not imperialists. Like were not going to be here. Dont look, dont worry were going to be out the door before, you know it and youll have your country back. And so that type of short term. You know, it leads you into the same war and over and over again, like there this was a truism of the vietnam war. But one of the truisms the vietnam war was the problem in vietnam wasnt that we fought a seven year war. It was that we fought seven one year wars. And you could certainly say the same thing about afghanistan. So this decision to build in plywood in many ways, ironically, gives us the year war, because if you look at that 20 year timeline, at any point in that 20 years, youre talking about obama, all the Missions Accomplished and rumsfeld. Any point at 20 years, were like 18 to 24 months for a major troop. And so when youre on the in afghanistan and youre doing just like the very retail work of counterinsurgency and what doing is youre sitting down with someone and being like, listen, you know, mullah x, y, z is very important that and your people support the Afghan Government, the future of your nation and people is with the Afghan Government and efforts here. And heres the road were going to build you and its going to be great in the theater. And i cant you how many versions of this conversation ive had where they look at you and say, yes, yes, we like all that. But i just watch cnn and president said, youre leaving in 12 months. So the taliban shadow governor who lives down the street, who comes at night when youre not here, he will be here in 12 months and hell kill me. So im sorry. Were not going to have the road, and i cant do anything to help you. So we never convinced them that we werent that we were going to build in a way that was that was permanent and whats strange is also in some of the after action reports of the collapse, we also never managed convince the afghan elites that we really were serious about leaving this time. Right. Right, exactly. Because they had you know, because because we you know were like the boy who cried wolf. Because wed said we were going to leave. And im not unsympathetic. The position that the administration was we are kind of gone into this where on the one hand, if we give them the sense that were never, ever going to leave, theyre never, ever going to do things for themselves because they will always have us as a crutch. They have to believe like were really leaving this time. So we make the announcements that were going to leave and we sort of build it. You know, we do the metaphorical building and plywood because we want them to stand on their own two feet, but at the same time, when you when you do that, you also undermine the faith that they have that theyre going to be able to stand on their own two feet. Theyre the faith that going to be that backed up and that our commitment to afghanistan is strong. So its its its these are not like easy decisions. But i think important to, you know, frame them and think about them with all their attendant complexity because. I will bet you we will be here, at least in our lifetimes, with some other war thats trotted out in front of us that we have to decide were going to go fight it. Im sure youll write a good book, though. I to make sure im leaving time for questions. Do you do you know how were doing on time . We got what do you think you want to do a question for me to do one more up to you. Lets do questions. We do questions. Yes. Anybody have a microphone so that cspan our questions. So raise your hand and ill come round. First of all, thank you for your sacrifice and service to the country. Im curious, given your background, afghanistan and iraq, i cant remember the last time i saw anything in the news about iraq, so i dont want to say that its six seated or afghanistan failed. But arent you are there any comparisons you could draw based on your experience between the experience there relatively at the same time for the United States . Sure. Um, thanks for your question and your support. Yeah. I mean, there are a number of comparisons can make. The first the first thing i would make is when ive when afghanistan was falling, i was on the phone with a very good friend of mine and we had a very similar in both iraq and afghanistan as marines and special operators. And we were sort of scratching our heads. We were wondering why is this feel so visceral, upsetting in ways that iraq never felt like we he i both found fallujah, for instance, and when isis took fallujah, it didnt feel as painful as it felt to watch kabul fall, for instance, and sort of one of the conclusions we kind of came to as well, um, you know, iraq was a war that was always sort of fought on. I would say to be charitable, shaky, um, afghanistan though was a war that was predicated on attack on our homeland. I mean people its kind of a year ago watching like people had like forgotten that it was odd but you know, it was 911. Thats what we went to afghanistan. And there was only one other war. The United States had fought based on attack on our homeland. That was the Second World War. And now, our generation, my generation, you know, we all know how the Second World War ended is watching this second war predicated attack on our homeland. And in. Undeniable defeat, like we lost, like categorically, they win. We lose. And thats really thats tough cheese. Its tough to watch that. And so, my friend, i really was like, this is why we are having this reaction. But then we kind of laughed and were like, you know, isnt it . It is incredibly ironic that afghanistan, which had always sort of the good war or the war that like we least we knew why we went in the first place would be a loss. And that iraq this like muddled, quiet empire that we had both fought in. Im not going to go so far to say like we won the iraq war, but i wont say when we completely lost it like iraq has now had, i think, five parliamentary elections. Um, you know, its been very painful to get there, but it wasnt categorical loss. And the irony of that, um, the other point i would make sort of the difference that i observe between iraq and afghanistan is. I served in iraq in 2004 and 2005. So you know, year ish after the invasion and when you sit down and have those conversations that i sort alluded to, you know, like with afghan elders, when you have them in iraq with, you know, with local powerbrokers, you know, you would sit there and you would kind of give this vision, are like, you know, we need to to actually do to why we need u. S. Because we need to get to peace, needs to be peace in this country. And when you would say that to someone in iraq, peace to them, that idea of peace was, you know, returning to a condition they had known. I mean, granted, you know, peace under saddam hussein, you were living under a despot. But, you know there was peace and so. Yes, okay, peace. Were going to go back to a condition that we once knew. When you would sit down, have these conversations in afghanistan and youre end of the cause, and then there will be peace. Well, the war in afghanistan started in 1979. The average Life Expectancy for an afghan male living in the provinces in his early sixties. So unless this person is like in their early sixties, they dont have any adult memories of afghanistan at peace. So when you say, oh, theres going to be peace, you were asking the asking them to imagine a state of being out of whole cloth. So youre not engaging with peoples memories, youre engaging with peoples imaginations. And its its actually much more difficult to do that. And be on the same sheet of music. Im going to try to keep this brief. I actually an afghan. So i remember last year basically how things went, right . Like overnight we came interpreters, lawyers. We became advocates, we became unpaid employees. The United States, you know, immigration services. And i think i just want to do it. Just clarify that. I dont think that the Afghan People have lost their will to fight. And i think that is important to recognize that afghan women are the ones leading the protest like now in afghanistan, you know, against the taliban rule. And i think my question is just kind of reading through your book and just discussion today is i know that with the i think the lack of help from United States government and how to, first of all, get the afghans that were eligible to get out safely, relocated to the United States. There has been a lot of incomplete work right. So there is like afghans trained in albania waiting for paperwork. Its been almost a year waiting for paperwork to be processed how and this is just like my personal question for you. How are you or the people or the colleagues that you worked with last year . What are you how do you envision the relationship between afghanistan and those who are left behind . I mean, like you said. Right. How many people can we get out . Like, how can we save an entire country who have been robbed of selfdetermination then and then i think i think that my question plays into this and also in terms of like the afghan act thats currently in progress, if you havent heard of it, you can definitely look at its two afghans who arrived here last year through, you know, the severe refugee evacuation. And its to grant them a way for permanent residency. How much of advocacy work are you doing with the colleagues that you last year to kind of push things like that along and there are still afghans here and specifically san luis who have still not been able to secure housing, who are in limbo because like lack of government assistance. And i think at this point it would be federal so. Is there any like other work that youre doing outside of what happened last year to kind of promote . Um, i think a resettlement . Yeah, thats a long question. No, no, no. You for that question, i guess an important one because you know the what happened last summer was very acute. And ill say like as a journalist, one of the things was sort of very disorienting for me was like ive written about afghanistan for a long time or seen as a story and like, you know, and like before last, like people kind of didnt care, you know, theyre like, whats going on for so long . And then to see everyone talking about afghanistan last summer was just a story because it was so back and americans, americas consciousness and you know, and sadly, weve seen recede and theres been the war in ukraine. Its very important that like people dont the attitude not be like well was so horrible but now the war is over turn the page like its not you have a huge afghan you already had a significant afghan diaspora in the United States. You have a much larger one. Now, the afghan adjustment act is key. So these people can come here and work, particularly in an environment where, you know, we need people to come to america and work and great productive citizens. So, like thats something that, you know, and they will get support as your member of congress about. I know its sort of threading its way through congress, i think is in the senate right now. That is critically important. I also think one of the things the taliban are figuring out, at least from what i read, is like its much more difficult to govern than to run an insurgency where its, you know, 75,000 talibs causing problems for the government. Now they are having to govern and afghanistan has you know has experienced 20 years of relative liberalism under the Afghan Government and and and so afghans today are like its a very young country. It is as much as i was saying, you know, its a country that has endured a war since, 1979. Its also a country for for so many. I think probably it had check my statistics here about this. But half the country almost, you know, doesnt have adult memories of living under the taliban. So this is like a completely experience for them. And and were going to have to see what the political future is in afghanistan. And america will likely play a role in it because were deeply invested in that country. I mean, we again, we have a 20 year relationship with them now, depending on how you want to count or even before that, youre counting back to the 1980s and before. So what i doing im trying keep it in peoples consciousness, frankly. Thats what i do as a writer, as and frankly, the one thing that does give me, you know, makes me hopeful is just on a interpersonal level, the the afghans i know who are in my life are just awesome, amazing people, you know, are amazing people. I met them when we were fighting in afghanistan. And one thing i learned early on is that, you know, the the ideas or the ideals that we sort of purport to be american ideals, even though we often disagree what they are. Theyre theyre not we own them as americans, like theyre universal ideals, you know, freedom, the right to live your life. How want to live it and i met afghans who were fighting for that. These american ideas not saying that they were necessary like american. And those people, so many of them now live in america. And i kind of just im very feel very happy that i get to be in their life and to see what theyre going to do and like what their children are going to do here. Because, you know, they will be they will be great americans. But lets go like, you know, lets do things like the afghan adjustment act passed. So can welcome them as best as we can. So i hope that answers your question. And also to that point about will just i think its important to keep in mind that 60,000 afghans died trying to defend that government, right . Yes. Yeah. I just i never here i think for coming, elliot. Um, my question is, you said that, you know, categorically on day one and we lost and i started thinking, well, we havent had a major terrorist attack in this country since 911. Osama bin laden is dead. Ayman alzawahiri is. But if youre talking about nation building, i think those are absolutely a failure. And my question for you is knowing how, you know, given how well, you know, the folks you served with could could the American Military be made to be Nation Builders . Or is that just inimical to the entire structure in of the u. S. Military . Sure. Actually, i in the book, i get in this little bit, the stories tell ourselves about war are really important because we tell ourselves the wrong stories, get ourselves in a lot of trouble. So i would actually make an argument that we won the war on terror, but we the war in afghanistan, which technically in the u. S. Military was called Operation Enduring freedom, which when i was in, that was all it was called. So it was an operation in a broader war. So why did we win the why have we won the war on terror . Well, because if you were to tell an american walking down the street on september 12th, 2001, that after 11 or for the next 20 years, there wouldnt be a major american attack on u. S. Soil and that bin laden would be dead and his successor would be dead. I think we said, wow, thats that sounds pretty great. Now, when you would trot out, well, this is what its going to cost and heres going to be the twists and turns that take you there. It doesnt look as great, but i think the way we metabolize is whats happened does matter. So i dont i dont disagree with your point and with regards to nation building and counterinsurgency, its lets i think this is something that the u. S. Military cant i dont think that necessarily any military could it could have done what asked to be done in afghanistan. And given the conditions as they were like, i just think they were there were there were political conditions that made that work. The way that we tried to do it. So this sort of isnt like an a tactical or an operational failure. It is a strategic failure. I think when you look at, you know, nation building, you need you know you need a nation that enjoys a Critical Mass of, uh, legitimacy that for a whole host of reasons, the Afghan Government was never able to secure in a way that made it not susceptible to the taliban. But again, even as i say this, i doubt myself because like, for instance, many people have criticized the Afghan Government, say, well, you know, soon as the United States pulled out, they just collapsed. So that shows theyre completely illegitimate and like, well, yeah, but guess what . Its like the pakistani isi had just pulled their support from the taliban. I guess you would have collapsed the taliban. So theres you know, there are a lot of layers to this. And i think oversimplification is often our enemy and i myself can find myself of of many different minds when i think about afghanistan and think we have time for more good. Um, so served in as peace corps volunteer in nicaragua three weeks after i got there was war and i lived in war as a peace corps volunteer. The orphaned children putting the families there. So i lived in war. I fought war. How do you deal with it emotionally . This act of killing people isnt necessary. Action have to take. Well, i mean, listen, i think theres sort of theyre much broader kind of philosophical, i think undercurrents to that question. I, i believe and this is just me and my study of history, what understand of human beings that war is something that is just its in our nature. Weve always done it. Its part of human nature. So i have always felt feel free to disagree with me. Im sure probably many people will disagree with me, but ive always felt that, you know, being against war is like being against hurricanes like one is an act of physical nature and one is an act of human nature. So then the question kind of becomes, are i understanding that war is something that we do . What am i going to do . How am i going to deal with the fact that i exist in a world with and there are lots of decisions a person can make that are all, i think, respectable i will tell you and i was sort of you know, coming of age, i was of the mind, listen, if there is a war going on and im of the age that my generation has a war, i feel like i should be i feel like i should show up for that. I feel like thats i feel like if i did it, i would always ask why i did it. And so i felt like, now im going to show up, im going to participate. You know, the calls. Im going to call me idealistic. But like that was sort of my philosophy and. I, you know, and i and i walked down that path and as a. As a marine, later on, i felt like at a small level, i was able to make a difference. The people that i served alongside and i can think probably i can probably count them on like maybe my, my, my hands and my toes a few really critical, critical moments where where im like, im im really glad i was like to make a decision to i write about one of those decisions in the book. I got a few of those and to me it made a lot of sense for me. Its always made a lot of sense for me ethically that i was there. So when i think about issues like regret, you know, you know, was it was it all a waste . You know, when kabul falls or when fallujah falls, this all in vain, the that has always sort of grounded me is like, well, if i just throw up my hands and say it all meaningless and it was all in vain that like the things we did for each other in the war were meaningless. The means, the day that was there, you know, to say we were going to, you know, not go back into the kill zone and, you know, that was meaningless. I should have been there the day that i was in that house in fallujah. But i made this decision that i think probably kept some of us alive, like that was all meaningless. And that is been how i have made peace with these very dramatic moments that i think it would be easy to look at and be like, this was a waste. I wasted everything. What a waste. And i know people wrestle with that. Thats just sort of how i have made my peace with it, because the the tactile of it, the relationships that i still have, the stories and the decisions we made. Like one of the things when one kabul falls, i think was my wifes war challenge. I was like, this is its so poignant watching this was, as i mentioned, this window so suddenly, like theres this sort of group of frankly, guys in my life who are like, you know, my kids call them, you know, you know, uncle danny, jack, uncle, you know, like and thats how they know them. Theyre like dads kind of, you know, brothers that were not actual brothers. And now my kids suddenly saw them, and my wife saw them not, you know, uncle soandso comes over for dinner some time, but back is like, no. Staff sergeant brownlee, who used to fight with dad and, you know, and now were like to help get these guys out. And suddenly, you know, i think would tell you she felt like she had this window into, our past life, not just my past life, but all of our friends. So when i think about war and regret, the horrors of war, of which there are many, the thing that sort of keeps from going insane is im like, well, you know, these guys and what we all did for each other and still in each others lives. So i dont know if that answers your question. I hope it does. One more. I wanted to ask a question. You raised the issue of morality being involved and i wanted to have you share your thoughts about how the morality of going after al qaida from 911 got changed into remaking the country in our own image. Yeah, the question was sort of how the morality and the make sure i got to right the morality around going after al qaeda after 911 sort of morphs into this slips into this nation building mission. Its an interesting question. When ive thought about it a lot and ive sort of thought know, wow, is there any way this could have ended . Okay, um, you know, the one ive always seen was being like the most probable outcome of how maybe we could have had a more positive endgame in afghanistan or, you know, one, even though thats a very term would be like, lets just say hypothetically that 911 happened. We went after al qaida, we the taliban left afghanistan. And then around 2000, two or 23, you know, we made overtures to the taliban to try to incorporate them as, like real minority stakeholders, but get them involved in the Afghan Government just so you know, they had a little bit of purchase in there and were disincentivized to start an insurgency again. And how do we not invade iraq, not invaded iraq, and really kept our eye on the ball in afghanistan was that was there there sort of a political settlement that would allowed us to get out . I dont know, maybe there was that but thats all water under the bridge. I actually think one of the ways, one of the reasons we slept goes back to this idea of the stories we tell ourselves about war, right . So we go to war, um, after the september 11th attacks, one of the things ive always remembered about that time was, the zeitgeist in this country. So, um i can kind of remember 911 but the clearest memory i have of 911 is actually the day before our strike, two days before september 9th, which was a sunday night. And i was in college and i was living with my brother and i had told him that i was going to have the tv. It was my night for the tv because i want to watch hbo because that night a new tv show was premiering on hbo and it was band of brothers. And so i would like we live in much more cynical times and a tv show like band of brothers might not like work the way it worked 20 years ago. If you remember, if seen that show its about easy company and World War Two and its all sepia tone. The greatest generation like was the zeitgeist in america. Two days before 911. Those were the stories we were telling ourselves. We were the good guys, we were the liberators, you know, we were going to come free the oppressed from across an ocean and a boom 11 happens so we go off and we go to chase a terrorist. But like a war against terror, like thats not a war to destroy nazi or, you know, get rid of hirohitos japan. Like how do you win that war . Like youre fighting youre actually not fighting to achieve a positive outcome to do something. Youre fighting to avoid a negative outcome, to not have an attack. So how do you you won. You know, you won when something doesnt happen like its for us to get our minds around that. So i think we should be sort of like we had to fight a war that was recognizable to our concepts of war. So were going to liberate afghanistan, were going to create a democracy there. Were going to create a positive outcome in this country because this terror war kind of doesnt make sense. I mean, you know, we can have, you know, our special operators killing guys in the middle of the night and bombs in there. But that doesnt make sense. If we liberate a nation and build something there that makes sense to our american minds. And i think that really contributed to why we sort of slipped there for so long and also, frankly, why we wound up invading iraq to. Okay, well, that was fabulous. Is there any other questions we would you have another one . All right. Well, one more. First of all, thank you for your service, um, if could look into your crystal ball. It sounds like youve met a lot of afghanis in your time in afghanistan and, and maybe, maybe youve met some taliban. But as you look in your crystal ball, what do you see as the future for afghanistan in that region . Oh, um, or prognostication is a terrible business to be in. So im probably going to be wrong i, i dont know. The only thing i will say is, um, you know, in, theres been this tendency, i think in, america, for america to say, well, the war is over, now were done. Afghanistan. I do not think afghanistan is done with the United States. There is an enduring and symbiotic relationship that exists there. I dont know what the next chapter will bring. I hope. It is a brighter one for the Afghan People. I think we have a we we have a moral obligation to particularly help the afghans who have come here and to continue to try to get out, get those afghans of afghanistan or out of afghanistan, but also all of the afghans who managed to get out of afghanistan but couldnt get to the United States and are in other countries that are less sympathetic than our own. So i think it is a the future of afghanistan is both the future of the afghan diaspora, you know, and then. And then whatever happens inside the country. But i do think there will be change. I think thats the one thing you can you can bet on. Lets hope the sixth act has a happy very nice well said said. E latest news about the Publishing Industry with interesting insider interviews with Publishing Industry experts. Well also give you