Its difficult for some to be introspective. But you came from a household with a strong mother and father. What affected they have on you . Tremendous effect. There were three of us children. Older brother, younger sister. Story at the dinner table. Father and mother are very verbal people. At the dinner table each night one of us, parents included would have to defend ourselves from something. We would be taken to task by the other four with something that happened that day. You found yourself trying to sink or swim. It was a very active dinner table. It was a conversation. Earliest that happened. Up and i was growing solve the wrongs, i said to myself i have to do something about this. I had the confidence of a child. I can make a difference. I have to make a difference in terms of this situation. Your mother is a schoolteacher. These are positions of respect. Did you have the feeling or did you know you are, your situation was different from the situation of most black people . No we still have the housing segregation of today. It was rigid and state enforced at the time. Our communities were mixed communities. Down the street the kids with no shoes, our parents would make sure what we had we shared. We were all in the community. It didnt matter what your socioeconomic status was. Public between two housing units. At each end of the block. The when you were able to move out of the housing unit, they used to say we never had to live in a housing unit, but we did live in a fourstory walkup. Those who were able to get into the community, they were able to move the plot of land. With people who were not selfsufficient, you had friends in the housing unit. You understood and you interacted at school. You were all there together. Difference ine a terms of being able to reach out and not judge on the basis of economic difference. Ive read you decided at age 8 to become a lawyer. I did. What did you know about lawyers . Elaine it was unusual. It was an interesting story. I think it was interesting. Precocious i guess. Or brazen. I had a toothache. One day coming home from school. Stopped at the Dentist Office i go in the office. Xrayss me a full set of and the whole treatment. At the end of that. The bill came from the dentist. It was some huge sum of 100. When my parents saw that they said what is this . You didnt have any permission to go to the dentist. That is supposed to be discussed with us. Look, you have to appear in court. Said im going to school. My father said im not going to miss this trip on the railroad. You are going to have to go down there. Im eight, nine years old. So he had the family friend, an older gentleman. We go to the court that morning. I will never forget it. The judge, the lawyers, the dentist didnt show up. The dentists lawyer was there. I go up with the family friend. , i was veryked me lady,dated, he said young did you have your parents permission to go to the dentist . That was a condrey condrey quandary for me. It made me look like i was a disobedient child. If i said yes it made me look as if i were doing what children normally do. Something told me to tell the truth. Just tell the truth. I said no. Your honor, i didnt. He turned to the lawyer for the dentist and said well then, does your client have the practice of doing full mouth xrays on callingarolds without the parents . Case dismissed. Had i said yes, i had permission my full suite of had to pay that money. I always knew something about truth. But the power of truth came through that. The power of truth. Do not live. My mother would say i hate a liar. Home, i was able to celebrate that moment. Segregated water signs, we all had to sit in the back of the bus. Through,police came they were all white. On theact of racism Africanamerican Community was found. It was never ending. You always saw it. I made the connection between law and change. How do you make that connection . You have this experience most children dont have. Elaine and then police. People would go down to the Police Station and you would never see them again. There would be stories you would hear. Police are part of law. I was looking for a way. How can i make this difference . Then Thurgood Marshall. Who hadhad a teacher , he Thurgood Marshall brought a lawsuit in the mid30s. There was a black tax. White teachers of similar qualifications got more because they were white. One of my teachers had been one of his in the virginia case. Aboute would talk Thurgood Marshall and the naacp. This was firsthand experience. She wasnt a history teacher. The siddons come along, one of the original students at North Carolina had a High School Teacher on the 1947 journey of reconciliation. So this information is just transmitted. Im guess happening all over the country. I am sure it was. Could nottion was we do anything. Hope in the congress. Gothe only place we could was the court. Once in a while you could get you had a profound impact on her. It had a profound impact on you. Thurgood marshall was a wellknown name. You know who he was. Everybody knew who he was. You talked about your parents being refused hotel rooms. Elaine in my household that was a matter. Union,st black trade randolph would come home off the railroad and he will come up to the kitchen. And the brotherhood. Daddy was very active and vocal. People gathered around. Girl, i met randolph. My father being on the railroad decided i want my kids to see some of the country. My mother said good idea. Around 10 or so years old they packed us up and we took the first trip to chicago on the train. Old. Other is three years , and we cantago find our hotel. Y. Go to the and they sayt us, no room. You know that is not the case. We are walking from hotel to hotel. Three little kids. My father in his uniform, trying to find them. And they are old. That did something to me. Eventually had to fire one of his roadway railway buddies. It was just unconscionable. Then you would know growing up the kids across country. You couldnt go anywhere without planning that trip. Just because of the way segregation was. This system is wrong. Elaine somehow, you are going to make some contribution to change it. I wonder why you might not have been attracted to the trade movement as opposed to law . We never have the lawyer in the family. Family. R in the what are you going to do when you grow up they would always ask area im going to be a lawyer. You should see the look on peoples faces. Know the society they live in. They would pat me on the head and say yes you will be. They never said no. But they were condescending. Parents never. They said elaine is going to be a lawyer. So they reinforced it. Elaine my mother was interesting. Any reinforced it when i was undergraduate, second year of howard my mother wrote me this you wantd said i know to go to law school. Somehe said please take agent station some education courses. I may be able to get you in on the school system. So from other i took three education courses. Julian there is a time she would have told you to do typing or shorthand. We have made some progress. She did the same thing to my sister. Who also became a lawyer. Elaine she is a judge now. Julian what about the Howard Atmosphere . I was there in the 1960s. We took philosophy of art together. Riders, theyom were coming out. I had no money at howard. My brother was at school. I had little money. I just didnt have any for some reason. I worked on the desk behind the dormitory for the four years i was at howard. I saw everybody. I saw everybody. All the guys were coming. , i knewaturday night who was asking for who. I knew that. Hey would all come through i just saw everybody. There was a buzzing system. I got to the point where i knew who was going to buzz. Sometimes a guy would come up and say oh no, not that one. It was valuable information. I never used it to help my economic status. Julian what teachers do your member to help you on this path . Nobody at howard pushed me into the law. Into activism . There are lawyers and then there are lawyers. Elaine how did i get pushed . Think i think what just the me was atmosphere at howard. I was a Political Science major and i said this was wrong. English is the best major for law. It is reading and writing. And speaking. I need to think a little more. I know how i had it in florida. Jim maybury. Word. President of how he became president the year i was there. I knew of his role in the legal side. Martin luther king came through howard. Just the entire atmosphere. And then i had a few political skills at howard. How word. Active in i ran for i was supposed to be a shooin. I didnt do the right campaigning and i got beat. Never take anything for granted until it is done. That is one of the things that drives me now. These are leadership training exercises. That is what they are. Did you think then im training for Something Else . Or im just doing something im interested in . Elaine im doing these things im interested in. I always knew there was a lesson in most things. I didnt always know what the lesson was but i knew it was a lesson. It taught me something. Which helped me in subsequent years. Howard,friendships that the Great Society class. Lyndon johnson came and made a speech to the class. A lot of different events impacted to make me who i am. And when i left howard, i knew that i didnt want to go to law school then. Because i had worked so hard. I had really worked hard academically. It was challenging. And i knew that i needed a break. And i wanted an educational break. I didnt want to do nothing. So i kept thinking and thinking about what i could do. And then i realized, you havent been anywhere. You havent traveled. My first trip was the senior year of college when i went to an interview for a job i didnt get. So i havent been anywhere. I said, i needed to travel abroad. So the peace corps was the answer for me. So i applied to the peace corps and indicated i wanted to go to turkey. I did not indicate africa. I knew i would get to africa. But i wouldnt get to turkey. Turkey was centrally located and it was right there between europe and asia. The gateway, muslim culture, so different from everything i knew. And it would be an adventure. And also, i could travel. I you get to the middle east and israel and europe because when i came back from turkey i went through luxembourg. I saw my dean of women at howard. I said, i can really travel and see this part of the world. The peace corps. Julian bond is it unusual for the peace corps to let you go where you want to go . Without Language Skills . Elaine jones at that time, it wasnt. But i had to learn. Julian bond can you do it now . Elaine jones no. I did it for a while because the dean went to the university of law school later and he had a turkish medical Student Living with him so he would put it us together and i kept it up. And i havent been back since i left to the peace corps. I do need to go back and see where i could pick up. Julian bond what did you do in the peace corps . Elaine jones teaching english as a foreign language. I taught english to turkish medical students. Turkey had new language. So the textbooks were written in german or english. And in turkey, you went straight from high school into medical school. So i was teaching english and it was very interesting. The university was in the capital. I would teach and half the time i could hear my students the child has gone to school and the child is going to school. And then you use adult so they put it in the right place. And then church saying the adult has gone to church. They had to recognize the correct pronouns and where to put them. That was the oral way of teaching it. Not only were they learning and substituting the right word, usually, they were also mimicking my accent. So as a class, i could hear a southern twang. And i said, oh, my god. Julian bond i wonder, by then, turkey is a modern society, at least urban environment. The students . What do they make of you . Elaine jones there was no love lost. We ere in the middle of cyprus. There was a big fight. And there was no love lost between the turks and the arabs. And they didnt know what i was. And i would say american. And i would say american. And they would say no. In other words, there was no such thing as a black american. Americans were blond and blue eyes, not like me. And they would say i was arab. So the white volunteers were getting the negative reaction because of the antiamericanism and i was getting it also because they thought i was arabic. And one time i was stoned in turkey, there was an american compound there, Service Families with a big base there. And the peace corps wanted us to go out and live in the community. So i lived in the community but i didnt realize that my house was in the red light district. So there were turkish soldiers knocking on my door and i couldnt understand it. So one day i was coming home from school and somebody started throwing a stone at me. And a turkish taxi got out and got them away and he apologized,. It was an adjustment time but i am glad i went. Julian bond and it is from there that you apply to the law school at the university of virginia . Elaine jones thats right. I was thinking about doing a thirdyear in the peace corps but my mother put her foot down. Every time there was an earthquake, she had a wake. There were casseroles. So i came back and i took the law school aptitude test. I only apply to two law schools. Virginia and howard. And i got admitted to both. And howard offered me everything. An apartment and everything and they wanted me to go to howard. And i have learned a lot from howard in the four years i went to howard and it was time to do something different. Dont always do what is comfortable. You need to go somewhere else. And i said, virginia is going to be a challenge. Julian bond virginia said yes. He did not think they were going to say yes . Elaine jones no. I had a girl who was three years ahead of me in high school. Who had applied to virginia. Had great grades in college and virginia did not admit her that the state for gin you her admission to go to harvard. So i said oh, you are on your way to harvard. I applied to virginia against i said, i will be the test case. I knew that i had degrees and i should be admitted to the law school. Julian bond the decision to go into the peace corps, stepping outside the mold. Im sure youre howard classmates, not many of them would have been interested in this. And when you apply to virginia and decide to go to virginia after having been accepted at howard, that is stepping outside outside the mold. Why do you want to do these Different Things . Elaine jones that is a great question and an important question. It is one of the things that motivates me. Dont do it because it has been done that way. Find a different way to do it. Julian bond people have been told it that way because it is the right way. Elaine jones but we are result oriented. If we dont push what it is trying to get, try another way. It might be something out of the box. But on the peace corps, i think my growing up in my time and, it was warm and wonderful but all africanamerican. My college was predominantly africanamerican. The africanamerican experience was a part of me and i knew it and it was part of it and i was rooted in it. That i knew that there was a bigger world. And in order to function, you have to be exposed to it. The earlier, the better. My father traveling had an impact on me. And i also knew that the world was not an africanamerican world. And i said, you have to be exposed to whites in america. You have to. You want to function in a Larger Society. The system has to change. Julian bond let me be the devils advocate. I could argue that even today at the height of success, that you do not function in the largest society. You function in the africanamerican world. In an africanamerican organization that came out of predominantly an African American. Elaine jones well, i am an African American and you are right that i lead an organization that is trying to protect the interests of africanamericans. But also, Something Else. I cannot do this by myself. Without other communities in this country buying into that notion. White america, latino america, asian america. At ldf, our cases not only impact africanamericans, but they help white america, latinos, asians, because it is the law. And once you change the impact on the law, it it affects everyone. And i make sure i have white lawyers on my staff. I dont have to have white lawyers on my staff, but they bring something of value. Ms. Diersch so if you look at our staff, there is an issue. And i will take a case to go to the Supreme Court, involving the right of a 62yearold white woman, an age discrimination case. And the name will come to me, it was a few years ago. Here she was, and age discrimination case. And she thought she was about to be fired. And she took the documents home and she eventually was fired. She and her lawyer, from tennessee, they brought the lawsuit and they were dismissed. During the deposition they learned that she took the documents home. So they said, you are out of here. She went up to the court of appeals with her lawyer. They threw her out by agreeing with the lower court and they created a new rule. So her lawyer contacted us. Julian bond so this is evidence acquired after the fact . Elaine jones it was after she filed a lawsuit on the discrimination case. That was new evidence. Because they said, we would have dismissed her if we had known she had taken the documents home. Although they didnt know that at the time. That rule the question was, her lawyer came and one thing that we know how to do is to get into the Supreme Court and stay out of the Supreme Court. So the lawyer came to us. And i said why should ldf spend 50,000 . I said this is a white female and it is an age case. Not civil rights. Three reasons that i did it. I looked at it and i said, wait a minute. This is the age discrimination act. Age and discrimination are sister statutes to the civil rights act. To voting and housing. They come out of a provision of the amendment. So i said no. Age is important. So i said all right, what happened here, it could seep into the other positions of law. The second reason i took it, i said, you know, this is if i had an africanamerican male standing in the Supreme Court, it may cast a different patina over the case. But with age, court may look at it. Maybe. Maybe. And i said, it also helps that i think that the plaintiff in this case is female. And a white female. There are two justices on the court who are white female, who will look at this case and who will not only understand it but will feel the injustice of what has happened to her. And i said through this, we could make law. So we took the case and we brought the lawyer. We wrote the brief. We had to decide the questions to get the Supreme Court to take the case. We were able to do that. And when they sent it for argument, i said we would take the case on one condition, if we felt he could really make an excellent oral argument. A case that he could argue. Otherwise, it if we didnt think he could make that argument then he would have to give the argument up. And i said, if you agree to that, we will take the case. So we brought him to the moot court. We did practice runs and we took him to the high court and we had our lawyer sit next to him as he made the argument. We won that case. The vote was 90. So what im saying is, when we took on the height and weight requirements, we had so many restrictions in the law that had nothing to do with who could do the job. We said you had to be six feet tall to be a state trooper. Why . That is so when he is giving a ticket, you look up at him. I dont know why that had to do with being qualified. It was across the country. It disqualified women because they are not usually six feet tall. So you did have a pool here that have nothing to do with your ability for the job that eliminated whole groups of people. So we took it in under the civil rights statute to challenge that in the Supreme Court. And we got the height and weight requirement to be a flight attendant. You can only be 110 pounds. That means most men are over 110 pounds. So when we participated in taking on cases and we get rid of the height requirements, who could you help . Not only do you help asians and latinos and women, you help short white men. Short white men who, before that, could not. Nobody thinks about civil rights laws in that way. Julian bond they dont think about them in that way and i imagine theyre people who say, dont go that way. Because you are not helping black people. Elaine jones opening up the system helps all of us. All we want is opportunities. Too often, we are shut out. If you apply the same criteria and benefits that you give to others, you would be golden. But we dont get it. Economically based and all of that kind of stuff. Giving us the same benefits. So yes, we are opening it up for everybody. Julian bond im going to take you back to law school. You choose between howard and uva because this is a different and new experience. But in some ways, there must have been unpleasant things about it. Elaine jones yes. Charlottesville was a shock. At that time, when you came to the university of virginia, i said i wanted to interact with the White Community and i had it. Completely sex segregated in the undergraduate schools and racially segregated because everybody was white in undergraduate. Law school, as a black woman and there was an africanamerican guy in my class who was from norfolk. So it was the two of us. And in the class ahead of me, there were two black men. And in the thirdyear class, there was one, so there was five of us. Julian bond how many women . Elaine jones a total of about nine women in my class. One of about nine women. Yes. No, no, it was seven. In law school, you totaled at 12. You could count them on one hand. This was about seven, seven or eight. But the women, we only had one place to need in the law school. We would go into the basement of the law school. That was a ladies room. It was a three room situation with a sofa in one room and a refrigerator in another and the restroom in the third. And we would all congregated on that couch. That was the only place we had to go. Because you had murals in the hall. Murals of when i think back on the mural, it is still there julian bond plantation scenes . Elaine jones no. Orgies. Sex orgies. With grapes hanging and stuff. So we would go downstairs net in the basement and i would try to figure out what experiences im having because of race and what experiences i was having because of gender. And i could figure it out from the conversations i had with the other women. They were talking about their experiences. Julian bond if the conversation was common, it was gender. Elaine jones yes, i could figure out what was what. Julian bond what were the gender related experiences . Elaine jones the hypotheticals we were given in class. They were genderbased. Something was always in the domestic scene. And a lot of sexism. And it was unconscious. Men would laugh. And so that was gender. And also, gender was when a hypothetical question was given and no one knew the answer, they would call on a woman. Nobody in the class would raise their hand, but when that happened, you called on a woman. So we had to really be prepared. We had to do our best. Otherwise, we would be made examples of in class. And the whole notion that you are here to find a husband. I dont know if they said that about me, but they said that to the white women in class. Since they didnt say it about , that was a mixed feeling. Julian bond i know that in a law school at this time, a woman was told to was occupying a mans place. Elaine jones but they didnt say the husband part saying who you could marry and couldnt marry. It was a matter of law. This was something to discuss. Something to discuss. Julian bond from these conversations with women, you could identify gender issues. Did you have similar conversations with black students . Elaine jones a few. We were close because there were four men and me. And we would all ask how have you made it . We have to come together. There was someone in the nursing school. We found support in one another. My classmates, we certainly we were in different study groups but then we would come together, so we helped one another. And there were some people a handful of us today. You know. They befriended me. Most of them ignored me. They knew i was there. But i was proud of that. There was the peace corps. I think i exaggerated that. Because of what i was dealing with. Julian bond the peace corps experience gives you two years on your classmates. Probably some maturity on your classmates. What else did he give you on your classmates . Black and white . Elaine jones ti dont think that first year, i would let fear of failure overtake me. A lot of classmates were afraid. It was traumatizing to me for other reasons. I said, i am here to graduate. I am here for a purpose. And fear gets in your way. You cannot function when you are scared. I think there is a certain boldness. Think,in confidence i i knew that i could fail, but it was not going to be for lack of trying. Julian bond what about people who were overtly hostile . Students, teachers . There was not a lot of that. I will tell you why. This was virginia. And there were the virginia gentlemen. Civility. You may think it and you may feel it but you dare not say it because it is uncivil. So it was not said. I mean, once in a while, i got something why did you come here . But for the most part and i remember, meanwhile, they didnt know if i bought into it. I might just go off on them. When i say the collective when , Martin Luther king was assassinated, i was in law school. I came to school that day. No one said a word. Not a student. Not a professor. No one. No one said one word. Nothing. And at the end of the day i went to the other black person in class and i said, do they know . Do they know . Julian bond of course they knew. Elaine jones of course they knew. They did not say it he asked for it. They didnt say that but they were thinking it. It was environmental. You could feel it. And i said, this lets me understand and i know what where i am. That is an example. But, if i had to do it all over again, i would. Because virginia i took a chance on virginia, by coming here. And they also took a chance on me. Julian bond sure. Elaine jones they took a chance. They didnt know me. And i can remember the faculty meeting, where i was admitted. And i think being in the peace corps helped me coming to virginia because it made them think well, she has seen something of the world. They had to break out of the cocoon and they did it with me. And it was a conscious choice that the law school made. Julian bond and your virginia background was an asset. Elaine jones virginia background. Julian bond and deans list. Elaine jones yes. Julian bond so you had all of the right combinations. Elaine jones right. Julian bond but it was a chance for them. Elaine jones they didnt know. There is a style around here. And it is here today. And they didnt know if i was going to buy into that. Because, they are giving me the virginia stamp of approval. So to speak. Sit in this particular culture . It is always a risk, because they do not know that. Honor system. This is our system. And this is our system and im , glad they took a chance on me because it worked. It worked. Julian bond when you leave the law school, you have a chance to go to a firm elaine jones yes. But no, i am in my third year. , we get out of law school and that is in may. Everybody looks for a job. You had to have a job so you knew where you were going. Julian bond right. Elaine jones i was interviewing. Meanwhile, my contracts professor who had taught me contracts, i did ok in law school, but my professor was at the firm. So i interviewed and they invited me to new york. So i go to new york and it was intimidating. I was scared to death. I think i broke out in hives and my legs were shaking so bad. My left leg, i remember. Julian bond after peace corps and earthquakes and virginia . Elaine jones it is a whole different world everything is quiet. You are in an inner sanctum and here i go in. And i had to meet with the senior partner. And i am given a job offer. It was 18,000 a year. Julian bond good money. Elaine jones 18,000 a year. Today that would be 100,000 a year. Top dollar. I had debt. I had National Defense loans to get through school. Through law school. They didnt give me any money. I had a 3 loan that had to be paid off. It was more money than i had ever seen. So i accepted the job. I accepted the job. This was in october or november. Mr. Nixon had just left the law firm and he was president. As i accepted the job went all around the law school. It got to the point when i walked by a mirror and i didnt want to look in it. Julian bond you did a job at the law firm and the people at the law school are saying where you are going. Elaine jones they were very proud. And a bond very proud tribute to them and to you. So what happened . Elaine jones i felt awful. Because that wasnt the reason why i had gone to law school. I was doing it only for money. That is another principle i picked up. I stumbled into it, but it is a good principle. It is all right for the money to be a factor. It is the real world. But when it is the only factor . And you are doing something solely because of the money you need to stop. Julian bond why could you not say, i will go to the law firm and make a lot of money for 20 years and then i go back to social activism and be better prepared . Elaine jones some people can say that. They say it now all the time. But for me, i wanted to start right away. I mean, it is the reason i had gone to law school. Julian bond how did the Legal Defense fund come along . Elaine jones well, i wrote them and i said no. Julian bond so you had nothing . Elaine jones i had nothing. It was a tactical error. Somebody had gotten that job and i started negotiating with him. [laughter] elaine jones that was another important lesson. I gave it up for nothing. And then i had no job. I gave it up after the holidays. And i went to the deans office. And i told the dean and i said, i have no job and he said, what do you want to do . And i said i want to be a civil rights lawyer. So he said, look, i am going to call my friend who is the head of the Legal Defense fund and he said, i will get you an interview with him. And i said thank you, thank you. That is what happened. So i went up to new york the next week. The office is at 10 Columbus Circle and i got through the office. And i got to the office at 2 00 in the afternoon. I walked around and nobody was there. And i said this is interesting. , theres no one here. And i came to find out that there had been a bomb scare so i dont know how i got up there. I was wandering around. But when they came back to the office, i was hired right there on the spot. Julian bond so youve finished law school and you go to work for them . Elaine jones i go to work for them. Julian bond and over time . Elaine jones i spend my whole time running across the south. Primarily in alabama and georgia, representing black men on death row for allegedly raping white females. That is what they were on death row for. Because that carries the Death Penalty. And the Death Penalty could be anything the state decided. The state of alabama had tried to give a 15yearold the Death Penalty for a nighttime burglary. Capital offense. So i work on the ku klux klan, the whole thing. I would go to court and they would say, lady, this is for the lawyers. They were big. Guns on both hips. Julian bond when you told them you were the lawyer . Elaine jones their mouse would drop mouths would drop. They would have to go check with somebody. The judges, they could not believe it. This is the deep south. There was one case i had in alabama. I was trying to get a change of venue for a young black boy and i said to the judge that there was racism here and there was a , if you are reading this sign you are too deep in and they said oh, i have heard about that sign. [laughter] elaine jones so, i mean, a lot of experiences like that. Julian bond as was true in law school, is it gender or is it race or is it ever both . Elaine jones it is both. And i was asked, which is it, gender discrimination or racism . I said, i cant pull myself apart. Im an africanamerican woman. That is what i am. But when people see me in the world where we live in, they see race first. Thats reality. They see race first. They see black, which is race. And then woman. They dont say woman first. They say black woman. I have been clear on that. I have always been clear on that. Im very active with womens groups, white womens organizations. We work together. My rule is, i tell myself, look, dont ask me to support anyone , i do not care if she is female, but if she is female and her head is not right on the issue of race, theres nothing i can do. Dont ask me to support someone because she is female. And so people who work with me , understand that. Julian bond part of that is a function of leadership. Now, some people think movements throw leaders up. Some people think leaders create movements. And some people think it is a combination of all these kinds of things. What is it with you . Which of these . All of these . U know, julian, you wont believe this, but i dont see myself as a leader. Julian bond you are a leader. By virtue both of your position and your personality. Elaine jones but you dont start out trying to be a leader. You dont do that. Julian bond some people do. Elaine jones do they succeed . Julian bond sometimes they do, yes. [laughter] elaine jones i start out to do a job, to solve problems, to deal with issues. And, julian, i like to win. I like to win. Im competitive. So i want around me a wide range of people. Who think outside the box. Who are the best lawyers who are out there. And weve got some good ones. And then reach out of the bar and talk to others in other disciplines and look at the problem and what i am trying to address. The theory is helpful, you know . All of it is to get the problem identified and to get a remedy. So i am result oriented. [indiscernible] julian bond no, no, you shouldnt. But some people are not result oriented. Some people are not solutions oriented. Some people are who knows what. But you are. Why are you . I mean, the job requires it, but why are you . You could not have been attracted to the job unless you had been. Elaine jones i think every day i wake up is a challenge. The job i have is a tough job. Julian bond sure. Elaine jones it is. The only way i can make it and do this job the way i think it should be done, i have got to stand up to adversity. I have got to be energized by adversity. It cant subdue me. It cant cause me to have selfdoubt. It cant cause me to go away in this bond and see. It is there for me to fight and to counter it. And that is the way i deal with it. And when you are the head of an organization, people with whom you are working every day, they have got to know you believe in them and you are in a common cause. You are in a common cause. Weve got a mission. We dont necessarily have all we need to do it. We are going to do our best job. And what we dont have we are going to find, because we are here to do a job. Theres no one who can do the job that we begin to do. We have to do what we began to what we do and we have to do it well. And i dont know where it just comes from within. It just comes from within. Julian bond and from your mother and father, circumstances growing up, and so on . Elaine jones thats it. The marshall family is very supportive. The board and our friends and other organizations, people with whom we interact naacp, we came , from the naacp. So these issues to me are as riveting and compelling and as important to me at the beginning of this year as they were. Julian bond but they are not to many people. To many people they are not important. Elaine jones no, they are not. People do not see it. That is why we have to find a way with the Public Education part of this thing. The Public Education part in america. It is sort of a whole home. Hohum. That is why we work so closely with the Mexican American defense fund. The issues we face a, too face. We face, they too face. We realize how valuable it is for our kids to be multilingual, to have several languages under their command. But, i dont know where it comes from. Julian bond i thought one of the Biggest Challenges to black leadership is how do you engage the minority . Not the majority. How do you engage the minority, and i think that is a question that maybe i dont think that is a challenge we have met. Elaine jones you would be surprised how many people of goodwill in this country who are not minorities who understand that the job is not yet done and who are willing, if called upon, you know, indiscreet and purposeful and targeted ways, to help. I believe that majority is solid. Weve got to find ways to engage them. But you know where we are falling short is our Public Education efforts. It takes money. It really takes money to get the word out. The far right has had it. They are organized. May started organizing in the mid1970s and they have a huge organization. Lawyers are a part of it. The Community Organizers are part of it. The biggest part of what they do is Public Education julian bond propaganda. Propaganda. Elaine jones that is right. And we got to figure out we dont have to craft the message. We know what the message is. But we have to find ways to coordinate activities and focus on Public Education. Julian bond it is a tremendous task and im not sure if we are close to getting it. There is so much i want to ask you. We have so little time. In minority communities generally, black communities particularly, you hear people talk about a crisis of leadership. Is there a crisis . If there is a crisis, what is it . Elaine jones i dont believe there is a crisis. We are looking outside ourselves. We are looking outside. Where is the leader . We have to look inside. What is it i can do . Julian bond but society, the Larger Society and the smaller society that you and i are part of, it wants leadership, it once identifiable it wants identifiable people. That is the leader. That is the man or woman in charge. Elaine jones because of the complexity of our world today, its very very difficult we have moved away from that. Because in many ways, we are more fragmented. Although we have the internet and technology and communications and all that, we are fragmented because we are living in our own cocoon. Our family come are gated communities, wherever we are. Its interesting. There is an inverse proportion. The more we can have mass communication, the smaller are areas are of real interaction with people. You know, just the vastness and the speed of communication, we impresn personalizes onalizes our relationships. Is that the word im looking for . We read information. As we are able to communicate faster, more globally, our spheres of interaction with people are getting smaller. Therefore we are even more julian bond and more impersonal. Yeah. Elaine jones thats right. That is what is happening to us. Which means the whole idea of leaders means looking for one or two or three people who can lead a fragmented community, because even our communities are more fragmented. I dont think it is going to get us anywhere. We have got to understand leadership. Our children need to understand they can bring something to the table. Julian bond you know, i think a common perception of the leadership figure is Martin Luther king. Elaine jones i know. Julian bond so many people say, gee, i can make a speech like that. I am not Martin Luther king. I never will be Martin Luther king. I cannot play a leadership role. So how can we show people that they can fit into the leadership . Oles elaine jones there is one standard with how we are living. [laughter] elaine jones and and look at the university of virginia when he died. And so in your own time, you do not get what you are entitled to. But you know, we see martins characteristics. They do not define leadership. His characteristics defined what martin brought to the leadership table. But just like martin brought his characteristics, jane doe out there can bring her characteristics. And so we have to define them for ourselves. And it depends on the time that you are in. So i just think this whole thing of trying to the Leadership Development has to be making sure that we have the schools for our kids and help our kids to dream. Too often their dreams are dashed. Kids are inquisitive and creative. Way that is beaten out of them. In several circumstances, it beats them down. We are on the right track when we stick with this whole question of Public Education. We lose that, we have lost this one. If we lose this fight we are in now up to our eyeballs on quality Public Education. Julian bond because that is where most kids are and where theyre going to be. Elaine jones in a democracy, if we dont have a certain level at which we educate and exposure, afford all of our kids exposure to the , so give them the opportunity to educate the mind, we really, we can implode. And thats real. Julian bond you read the surveys that say that 60 of black people support these measures that are going to defund and delegitimize the book delegitimize Public Education in america. Elaine jones we have failed. We have failed in the Public Education effort. When you give that voucher that 3500 to a000, private school that is 6,000, where is the rest of it going to come from . Julian bond people are so desperate for their children, part of the must be responding to this 60 . Do you just do with the majority wants to do, or do you say, you are wrong . Elaine jones you have to. You have to tell them. Julian bond say it like that . Elaine jones we have 300 cases across the country, mostly in the south having to do with the quality of education for secondary education. These are over whether they will get computers whether or not , schools should be built in this community and that community. The only way you can stay in court on these issues is with race. They are against everything we know. But the statutory basis is all i know of. Poverty. How can i go to court on poverty . The Legal Framework is not there. I have got to find a race angle to get these issues dealt with. So i take what im given. In these cases, and we go from community to community. You would be surprised. A lot of folks, a lot of people who are never told understand the value of Public Education. They are most depressed about the poverty and no one has shown them how they can turn this thing around, which is our responsibility to do. Julian bond you have to understand their frustration. We have been trying to turn it around for years and years and years. Elaine jones what we have to have is this, we have to have a fully funded of us and endowed that does this. Public education. Only this. With all the sophistication that one has. We dont have that. Julian bond where are we going to get the money . Elaine jones well, im working on it. Im going to go to naacp. I really am working on it. Julian bond youre absolutely right. Elaine jones im working on it. Julian bond what about the future, what is next . Elaine jones what we have to do , we are into some this is a turning point for us in this country. As we become more brown and more yellow and more black over the next 30, 40 years, we cant fear that. Cant fear that. You know, we have to, we have to work to embrace our increasing diversity. If we dont julian bond so many people are afraid of it. Elaine jones they are afraid of it. Because they think it is less power. Julian bond people in the minority, the other minority is going to take my place. Elaine jones thats right. Julian bond how do you make people our whole history is trying to get people to overcome fear. How you do that . Elaine jones i know. I know. I wish i had the answer. All i can say is we have to undertake the effort. And what i am hopeful is as we become more diverse, people will take action. Its going to come from small communities, families, neighbors. We are more segregated now than we have been in the past and we have been segregated. I just am hopeful that we can get a National Discussion going on. But it has to start locally. This is happening. We wont fear it. This is for the sake of our country. For the sake of our country. Still being where we are, it means this is not a problem. But this diversity issue is something that has to be embraced. Julian bond we are roughly a couple months from the end of the Clinton Administration which has tried to start this discussion, and it didnt happen. Elaine jones there was a problem there. You have to have a moral force. There is a moral struggle. To know that they will listen. And rightly or wrongly, these people have not listened to this president on these issues. Although he has understood, he has not been able to get people to act on them. But we cant leave it up to the president. Julian bond the president . Elaine jones we cant leave it up to the president. It has to be wider and deeper than that. We have to work with unions and the teachers and Public Education, the academic institutions, you know, that are trained. It is just a massive grassroots effort. The topdown will not work. Julian bond you think we can do it . Elaine jones we cannot fail. We dont have the luxury of failure. Julian bond on that note, let me thank you for doing this. Elaine jones thank you. This weekend in american 7 00,y tv on cspan3, at Meredith Gregory nobles talks about the influence of the naturalist John James Audubon to, and how he pioneered a citizen science. He really admired the artistic work of course, but also his fieldwork. He was very good at what he did and he did it with no binoculars, no field guides, no apps, and the proof is in the painting. At 8 00, Gettysburg College professor alan go so on abraham lincoln, his views on slavery, and the Supreme Court decision. What is he saying . There is no restraint, not even the restraint of sovereignty on taking slaves into the territories. Eastern, the10 00 opening of the museum of the American Revolution with speakers, joe biden, the museums president and ceo michael quinn, and cokie roberts. It is my hope that this museum inspires you to become active and involved citizens in this great country. Because history has its eyes on you. And at 8 00, and author talks about Florence Harding and the new president she created as first lady. She has been in hospitals, she had been in dire straits medically, so she could relate to the things they were going through. It was interesting because out of this veterans cause came the veterans bureau, the first time the United States actually had a bureau, what we would call the va today, to take care of veterans. For our complete schedule, go to cspan. Org. Unfoldsn, where history daily. 1979, cspan was created as a Public Service by americas public Cable Television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Bookshelf,history tenure recounts his as the longestserving mayor of rhode island. The mayor who spend time in prison for racketeering presents his this was recorded in providence, rhode island in 2011. Its about 90 minutes. Good evening, everyone. Thanks for coming to books on the square. Our honored guest tonight was mayor of providence from 1975 to 1984 and, again, from 1991 to 2002. When providence became the renaissance city. He is currently host of the i cianci show on wpro and now the author of the new book politics and pasta, how i prosecuted mobtss,