Let me also again acknowledge gay and david, molly, donna marie and the entire team at the society for the four arts for hosting this magnificent five part series. Thank you. And most importantly, id like to thank dr. Cheney for coming here and sharing her views on president and mrs. Madison. Thank you. Okay. Well revisit a couple the issues that discussed. Lets jump right into your writing style. Tell us a little bit about how you pick your topics and how you approach the research process. Well, during the writing of the book madison, i was entranced with the notion as gay pointed out that for the first 36 years of the republic, the virginians were in charge for 32. And i was interested not only in how this came about and thats a good story, but in the interaction between them and the personal interactions. I wont give away too much. But there are some surprises there. Yeah. And how i write. You know, i was teacher of freshman english for quite a while. I was getting my phd. And i just tortured these poor freshmen. I made them take note cards and every note card had to have a separate id on it. And then, you know, you organize the note card and you wrote. Well i dont do any of that. And i feel so bad for all those freshmen i misled for all those years. I kind of start writing. And i research while i write. And its not the most efficient process possible. But i dont know what i want to say until i write. And i go back and look at what ive written and it helps me more to know what i learned to say then and what i want to say next. So its not a very orderly process. And as my assistant nicole who is here will tell you, it doesnt make for an orderly office. There are papers everywhere. Books everywhere. You should see my office. One of the things about James Madison is as a young man he took copious notes during the Constitution Convention n fact, most historians we know much about the constitution courtesy of madison. So among all the founders, hes one that is easy to study in terms of just a volume of information there. As you poured through the documents of the young man sitting with a front row seat to history, did you feel like you got to know him better or as i read them, i remember feeling like i was almost fit sitting t in philadelphia. Well, its truly compelling. And i was fascinated with his ailment and how it was regarded at the time and how he overcame it. Think of it, madison was the most reserved of the founders and he married the most flamboyant woman. Yes. I think they truly enjoyed one another. There is this one story that sticks in mind of dolly its almost bizarre. Dolly and james running across the lawn in front of montpelier and then they would run the other way and sometimes dolly would carry him on her back. Great little madison or she sometimes said darling little gemmy. Onest founders once wrote that the quote was that they could defeat madison if only it wasnt for dolly. So she was quite a firecracker. There was a senator who wrote home to his wife, senator mitchell, in the leadup to the election of 1808 who pointed out what a great advantage madison had over George Clinton because dolly was entertaining everyone. Sure. Was there anything about their marriage its truly the odd couple when you look at them. In every single way. Was there but i think that they had a very strong and productive marriage. Anything about the marriage that you felt was particularly inspiring or interesting . Well, the way it started. I mean it was, i think, in the beginning a marriage of convenience on dollys part. I mean he fell head over heels. But i think she saw in him someone who would be a good support for her son, someone that would kind of provide that baseline level of sanity that all of us want in life. And theres a fascinating letter that she wrote to her sister on the day of her marriage and she said something of the order of i was married today, alas, alas. But she would not have written that, you know, five years later, three years later because it did become a love story. Sure. There was a strain in the relationship and that was her son. Did you talk a little bit about payne, turned out to be true to his namesake. Yeah. Payne todd, someone who said he was the serp enent in the garde. He grew up as a completely irresponsible young man. Madison was forever bailing him out of debt, indeed, bailing him out of prison. They tried everything. They sent him to europe with a very orderly and disciplined man. I think hoping that payne todd would learn better. But he never, never became any better. And toward the end of madisons life and after he died, payne todd from monlt pillier and told him to support his various bad habits. It is a reason why if someone tells you i have a letter of James Madison, take them seriously. Because the letters most of them have been gathered but some of the letters are still out there. I have a friend on the Eastern Shore of maryland who said to me, i have two letters of James Madison. And i looked and by gosh, there is James Madison. So, yes, payne helped put them into debt. Its an interesting thing that all vthe virginia founders died either in poverty or just not very well off. But madisons debt was in large part because of payne. Madison tried to care for him and tried his best to be patient, provided finances for him because of his great love for dolly. It just wasnt meant to be. What surprised you most about madison and dolly in your research, was it the ailments that madison had . You know, inevitably when you spend five years digging through primary documents, we have a view of madison. But i think our view of him is very simplistic and monolithic. He was infinitely more complicated person. So what surprised you as you were going through the memorabilia . His dedication, his hard work. I think, you know, we all know about the constitution in one way or another. But despithe fight for religiou freedom. Someone once said he couldnt account for jeffersons adhesion to this cause or his fidelity to this cause but for madison its easy to trace beginning with the prosecution of the baptists ain virginia and madison was a really good politician. And he didnt hesitate to use the loyalty of the baptists in virginia when it came to the time for an election. Monroe once ran against him and monroe was running around saying, you know, that madison needed to be replaced. He was the old school. He and monroe was the new school. And madison started writing letters to the baptists. And as they should have. They recognized that he was the one that would be best for office. One of the most important relationships to the founding and you just eluded to it so ill pick up on that while were here, was madisons relationship with jefferson. It was a friendship and it was a complex relationship. It was the political relationship. And piggybacking on your comment about madisons foremidable political skills, when jefferson needed something done in congress, went to madison. Jefferson was in europe, he wrote to madison asking him to do a, b, and ck y. Can you talk about this remarkable relationship . It is remarkable. I think its one of the Great Stories of the history of the early republic of all American History. They first met when madison went to work on the counsel state in virginia. He was very young, maybe 22. And jefferson became governor. And from that time, this wonderful friendship developed. They also lived in the same boardinghouse. As i mentioned in connection with kitty. And you can just imagine their conversations in that boardinghouse. I think that each of them was probably the brightest person that other had ever known or would ever know. And each of them loved books. And they bought books even when they couldnt afford them. But they just had this fascination with knowledge. It was enlightenment fascination with knowledge. So think of it. No only are they really bright, but theyre well schooled. So they have this bond of knowledge on which they can build and converse. They were both reserved. But very different otherwise. Jefferson had this soaring intellect and can you see it in the prose this magical prose that just raises you up. Madison was much more matter of fact and practical. They balance each other. There is a historian who said the account balance. Now if you were to give credit for who most deserved the audience or the appreciation for this friendship it would go to madison. I mean jefferson was a difficult friend. He at one point when madison is busy at work getting the constitution ratified and this is no easy thing, jefferson who is disappointed really upset that there was no bill of rights on the constitution started writing letters to people. He said heres what we should do. Dont ratify the constitution. But four states withhold ratification until there is a bill of rights on it. Now this is a fine thing to say to someone from paris. But madison is in the war in the conflict to get the constitution rat ratified and there is no way to amend it until it was ratified. It was hard enough to get through the Constitutional Convention where you had all of these people fighting over so many subjects. But if you started letting different states put different amendme amendments on the constitution, you would just end up with a mess. Everyone would have different sessions for what it should be. Jefferson didnt understand any of. This he was writing letters in virginia and quoting the ratification of the full ratification of the constitution. Madison never said a word. But he did send jefferson a copy of the federalist. You know, it was madisons patience that made that happen. During a period of adams president presidency, this was an act that made it a crime criticize the government. And during the time of the act, madison and jefferson decided that the best way to combat this was to turn to the states. So they wrote something called the virginia and kentucky resolution. Madison wrote virginia, jefferson wrote kentucky. Jefferson was far more forward leaning than madison was. Jefferson said that a state had the right to nullify a federal law. Now can you all see this leading up to the civil war. But that was jeffersons idea and he even suggested the ideas succession. Now along the way various people held jefferson back including madison from making such a bold and damaging statement. But jefferson, you know, just kept going. And when madisons more moderate, more thoughtful statement went forward to the virginia assembly, jefferson got ahold of it and changed it. And made it more ameanable to his way of thinking. You know, madison found out. He got it changed back. And he did say a word. But not a grumpy one to jefferson. He just pointed out to him that these words like nullification and succession were not going to be very helpful if you wanted to get a whole bunch of states to come together and oppose the act. So i think that madisons patience helped hum a great deal. I couldnt agree more. Of the two, madison was clearly the better politician. And i know there is a couple of uva grads the two, madison was the better politician. There are a couple of uva grads here. With all due respect. Madison is a virginiian too. I went to school in virginia as well. Madison was a far better politician. On the idea of the bill of rights. It was Charles Pinckney who initially said we should oppose rights against the mandatory quartering of soldiers, he talked about liberties of the press but we were not ready for it at the time. Madison comes to the rescue, interestingly, madison is initially opposed to coming up with a list of the bill of rights. But madison comes on board and not only can we call him the father of the constitution but perhaps the father of the bill of rights. Can you talk a little bit about his leadership role in putting together what would be known as the bill of rights. He knew the importance of talking to everyone and making his case convincingly. But as you point out he was worried if you listed a bill of rights, if you had ten amendments, say of the rights of people to do x and y, you were impliying they didnt have rights to do anything else. So one bit of his genius is the way he phrased the bill of rights. He wrote, well, you know the bill of rights, that the government shall not abridge the right to free speech and to free allegiance to religion. Think about that. The government shall not abridge. That left the implication there were a whole lot of other things that the government shouldnt do as well. So he knew how to pick his words carefully. And you can see the political skill coming out in the fight that ensued that jefferson is a firm line and madison is willing to work across the aisle, so to speak. While jefferson and hamilton seemed incapable of speaking to one another its madison who works with hamilton on the federalist papers. Can you talk about his great contribution in terms of the federalist papers and helping to get this rat fidel castro a ratified. He travels to congress. Even though he doesnt have the charisma that a washington has he knew the value of oneonone sitting behind doors and working to get the support. He and hamilton did cooperate on the federalist papers in an amazing way, writing at this breakneck speed that i think seems impossible today. They made the case for the constitution and made it for new yorkers but madison understood the importance of what they had written and had copies sent to virginia before it was up to virginia to ratify the constitution. But after a while, im not sure that madison was any less partisan than jefferson. Yeah. He and hamilton, jefferson and hamilton became great foes and okay im so sorry to tell you this, they even became great foes of washingtons. Washington sided with hamilton on almost everything. And hamiltons idea was a strong central government. People like madison and jefferson used to call him a monarchist, someone who wanted a kingly government that could tell people what to the and keep the whole thing knitted together. And so that was the fight. And jefferson and madison didnt want that. They wanted more power to the states. So that was the fight. And in the course of that fight, the First Political parties were created. But a great as well. Right. One of madisons high points some of madisons high points and some of his low points all occurred at the same time and that was the war of 1812 as you alluded briefly too. Madison was initially opposed to this and a couple of i guess hawks who came in on the 1810 election, the clays and calhouns pushed him in that direction. But his handling of it was incredible. Can you talk a little bit about the war president madison . Well, its interesting, adams in the Adams Administration there was this half war with france and president s in those days whether they are military men or not thought they should dress up and put on a sword and put on a hat with a cocade on it which is a ribbon that is made to look like a flower. Adams did that, madison did that. I find that odd. There are many things when you look back that you find odd. His greatest contribution, i think, as a wartime president was not prosecuting people who wildly disagreed with him and like the new englanders, even threatened to secede. But his leadership, his calm, keep calm and carry on, that when the land battles were going south, i think he was, though, elated, at the naval battles, the great naval battles of the war of 1812. Im so glad you mentioned that. Ive used in my own work and writings we give credit to lincoln for has m but i put madison up there with them as well. New england was close to seceding and new england fishermen were outraged. There were faxctions. And madison led everyone down calmly. When i think about it, the freedom of religion issue which madison and jefferson both pushed mightily. Think how different our society would be if they let it go the other way. If we had let it go unchallenged that the government cant prevent people from speaking against the government. Now washington and people who supported him had this idea that the government was the government and the government does no wrong. And if you criticize the government, youre trying to divide the people from the government. And in fact youre guilty of sedition. They put so many newspaper editors in jail. I dont know what it was a dozen. But it was a lot in those days. This was the Adams Administration. And washington supported the Adams Administration in doing this. It was as martin marty said about freedom of religion, this idea that it was okay to criticize the government was like a hinge between the ages. You know, before that, not so much. After it, well, you know what was have today, it is okay. Madison would also be a wartime secretary of state and a wartime president with the barberry pirate conflicts. Can you talk a little bit about, he would be going to war against and overseeing this interesting affair. You know, madison was very confident in himself. I think jefferson described it best. He just had confidence. And he was not only willing to go to war, he encouraged the congress to declare war in 1812. Madison also had this gift of leadership. He knew how to change his mind. You know, and a friend of ours said to me once, you know, of course you dont keep a total consistency throughout your life when the situation changes, you change. And i guess the most best example of that is madison and the constitution. Because when he left the Constitutional Convention he was very disappointed. He did not think they had done all that they should. But he sort of sat and thought about it and decided that Nothing Better could be created. And then went to work on the ratification. He thought that when hamilton proposed a National Bank that was the worst thing he ever heard of but he supported a National Bank during his administration. And some people, i think gordon wood wrote in his book, one of the chapters is called is there a madison problem with this back and forth and i think he would agree with me that, no. You know, you change your mind when the circumstances change. And so thats what madison did. Ive always felt also that one of madisons greatest contributions occurred when he was secretary of state and its something that jefferson gets all the credit for. Madison was one of the negotiators and that is the Louisiana Purchase which everybodys familiar with from the jeffersonian perspective but madison was secretary of state and played a role in this. Can you talk about him as secretary of state and his negotiations with this remarkable event . Its a good example of madison, the father of the constitution changing his mind a little bit. Because when france made the offer to let us have this vast territory at a really good price, jefferson started worrying this was not constitutional. There was nothing in the constitution that said the government had the right to acquire territory, to buy land. So madison just took him aside and said its okay. And you know, if he hadnt been there to give jefferson that confidence in the sbenterprise dont know if we would have purchased louisiana or not. Can you tell us about your next book on the virginia dynasty why you selected the topic. But just a little hint of your direction and focus on this book . I am interested in the fact that these were not four men sitting around a table agreeing amicable on issues. They fought like cats and dogs and the newspapers were part of the battle. You can find things in the newspapers of today, i think theyre as bad as what you see today and the political rhetoric we use today. So it was such a remarkable time to think of how different it was but in how many ways its the same. And we do owe them a great deal. Why this extraordinary collection of talent in that one place in virginia . Is that something that youll be looking at . You know, many great historians have done this. And you know, i follow in their footste footsteps gladly. I stand on the shoulder of giants but it is interesting all four of the virginia founders were born within a 60 mile radius at ferry farm. Thats the center of the radius, so to speak. And education plays a part for some of them, more for madison and jefferson than for washington and monroe. So thats part of it. They also, jefferson in particular, nurtured upcoming talent. They mentored and brought people along. Jefferson brought monroe along. The fact that they were together so much, you know, i think that wisdom comes from the clash of ideas, maybe not even clashing but these long discussions about constitutions and laws. Jefferson and madison were fascinating with explorers. They were fascinated by explorers. If you look at their book list they were delighted to learn about the first guy to go into mermansk and the people who sailed around the world. And that is purely an enlightenment thing. They had not only the vast nom they each had studied they had this whole environment in which it was thought important to explore and explore ideas as well as countries. Theres one last thing and i havent quite got this together yet. But one of your lectures wassed gordon wood . Talked about how modest a mansion in the United States was compared to blenem palace, for example. And no relationship. One is tiny and the other is huge. They were they were on the periphery of civilization. They werent at the center. They werent at london. They were on the edges. And i think that made them more creative. You know, you dont have this vast layer of tradition over the top of you that you have to fight through. You have a new country. You can have new ideas and you can bring them to the surface. So im just playing with all of this but thats the idea. Cant wait to see it. Another set of your books, its very appropriate that youre here as part of our series as gay mentioned in her introduction. We all feel that maybe were not doing a good enough job as a nation teaching our kids about history. I have been a historian for 27 years and although im always thrilled when i work the history day contest to see what kids are doing. But your series of books on civic and History Education books for kids, what inspired you to write that . What was that moment when you said, wow, our children really arent was it being in the classroom . That is always enspiring. We did survey after survey that showed how youngsters growing up didnt know anything about history. They its interesting. They dont know about history but they do know about something very important that the older generation tends not to know about, something really important they know about technology. You know, and how often have i heard people say ill get my granddaughter to fix this. But they didnt know about history. So that was perhaps a primary purpose. But the second purpose was that dick was elected Vice President and i wanted to stay out of trouble. So, you know, if you write a book thats deep history about adults, somebodys going to be mad. But who could be mad about these books . Theyre wonderful. I love these books. Tell us about america a patriotic primer. I recommend these books for your grandchildren. Tell us about america a patriotic primer. Well, i worked with a wonderful illustrator. Her name is robin glazer. And she was by profession a ballet dancer but she became a book illustrator and her drawings are funny and moving and theyre so great. The idea was to go through the alphabet, a is for america, the land that we love. Its to go clear through the alphabet. X was a little hard but we got through. And we were working on this right after 9 11. And robin drew this wonderful picture and we used a line from america the beautiful. It was thine alabaster cities shine undimmed by human tears. And robin drew this wonderful picture of the World Trade Center towers. It was a book that was inspired with a lot of emotion. Good. One of the other books i strongly recommend is a is for abigail. As someone who is a fan of abigail adams, talk a little about i was pleased to hear you end your talk about some of the women in madisons life. Tell us about a is for abigail. And who are some of the other women in that book and why . Sojourner truth is in there. The suffragettes are in there. The women who have achieved in technology are in there. Sally ride is in there. So we tried to make the book be about a group of women that was as inclusive as possible because you want little girls and little boys to read this and understand that the girls growing up are full of potential, just as the boys are. Sure. One other one that you wrote is our 50 states and its a family guide to traveling around the United States. So on that note, do you have a favorability National Park or scenic natural area other than wyoming. You stole my line. The Vice President was looking at me as i started that question. Do you have a favorite or favorites in National Parks and states to visit . How can i not say grand teton and yellowstone National Park. But i have never been to glacier and dick tells me thats something i should do. When i see the advertisement for arizona on tv i want to go to arches National Park. There are many things left to do. And what about a favorite Historic Site . Is there a battlefield, a home, a Historic Site . Some of the folks from montpelier are here which is a lovely site. You have obviously visited that and mt. Vernon. This thing thats going on right now with monroes home is interesting. If you go to montpelier and monticello and visit monroes house you think this is modest. I thought it was unbelievable how modest it was. Through archaeological digs the theory now is what we thought was monroes house was a little guest house and he had something much bigger there that he and his wife and family lived in and that it burned and the record of that is a little hazy. But it makes sense this whole theory that the house burned and they have excavated a large part of the foundation for it. That just tells you the past is not totally understood. There is always more to learn. And each one of these homes, montpelier, monticello, mt. Vernon they are wonderful to bring children to. They have so many child friendly programs. My kids have suffered through me dragging them through all of these places. When we were in the green room earlier, the Vice President and i were talking. I knew he was a great military history buff and civil war buff. Do you share his enthusiasm from visiting the various battlefield sites in the country and is that discussed in your book . No. [ laughter ] but dick has made the lives of our children richer. When i first moved to virginia lo those many years ago, they were little and dick loved the idea of being in the middle of battlefields and he would get them up every saturday morning and take them to a battlefield and one day they both revolted and said no more battlefields. Partly i dont have much geographical sense. To visit a battlefield you really do have to know north from south. Of all the books you have written, was there one that was the most difficult, most challenging for you . Sure. Madison. Why . Nothing else took me five years. Because of the scope of trying to capture a genius you know, i like the Donnie Wahlberg example because its just hard to see these ive never heard that analogy before. Watch blue bloods. Donnie wahlberg isnt 54. But i dont think he is more than 57 or 58. Most difficult. Thats the point. We dont have a whole series of photographs to look at. Youve got Gilbert Stewart and rembrandt peel. And every president tried to get his portrait done because people didnt know what they looked like. These portraits would be made and then copied and copied and copied so people would know. But i look at Gilbert Stewarts Thomas Jefferson and i dont think its right. He was a handsome man but i think it makes him handsomer than he was. I like the portrait of James Madison washington what an example. I was so stunned the first time i went to mt. Vernon and saw the young washington. It wasnt the first time i went to mt. Vernon but the first time i saw it. We know about the guy who has no teeth. And can you imagine . He had one tooth when he became president. One and he lost that in his second term. I think it was john adams who left the white house with just one tooth. First of all, the trial that that was. But secondly, the paintings, you know, you see washington as this aged person whose mouth is sunken in and swollen. So you dont you know them we know washington too well as an old man. And the portraits dont often show him enough in his prime. Sure. And he was oftentimes in pain because those tdentures were so ill fitting and he complained about them chronically. There are paintings of washington where he is bigger than horses and cannons and battlefields. Washington was a big fellow. But if you were to extrapolate he would be about 14 feet tall. My favorite painting is the apathiosis of george washington. It was important that we be worshipful of our great men in the early days of the republic. It helped knit us together and there is no better example of this of washington. Is this in the capital . But it Shows Washington being taken into heaven. Its a religious kind of symbol. Or washington and roman toga. Yes. Thats a sculpture. Washington in marble with the toga. Right. The worshipful attitude was remarkable. It was. But i think it is also important. You really understand washington better. But what happened was he lost that tooth in his second term and they no longer had anything to tie his false teeth to. So they made his face swollen. And that while it gives us a wrong image of him at his peak it helps us understand him as a human being. Madison was the most challenging. Was there one that you its never easy to write a book but is there one that was the easiest of all the books . Probably my auto buy graph call one. It was a treat to write about growing up in wyoming and having an excuse to get back in touch with linda ladd. You know, someone i had known in fifth grade and find out what linda was up to. That was the most fun. Whats the difficulty in writing about yourself . As someone who has lived in the public eye for decades. You got to figure out what you dont want to say. Could i ask that were almost out of time. A long year as a scholar, a teacher, a political spouse, a public figure, an author, what have been some of the great rewards of this distinguished public life and what have been some of the challenges of this public life . When you reach higher levels the challenge is you dont have any privacy and you dont have the ability to be spontaneous. If you want to go to the drugstore you have to call the secret service agents. Thats a disadvantage. Though on the other hand we were always surrounded by people so nice. I cant say enough good things about the secret service. They not only did a great job, they were good people. So thats a kind of disadvantage. The advantage is, you know, you get to meet remarkable people. Before he died, i dick as well we got to visit with Pope John Paul. And he was truly i mean you just felt holiness. He was just amazing. The other person that i remembered as being stunned by is the empress of japan. Just this total zen and beauty and calm but Pope John Paul was just the most amazing. Who are your heroes . Growing up and today . Any heroes . Wonder woman. Wonder woman. Yeah. Understandably so. Yes. And one last question. What do you point to . What really sparked in you this lifelong passion for history . What was it from your early life that helped to forge that . You know, i got my ph. D. In english literature, which isnt history. But i kind of thought it was at first. So i kept going with it and kept going with it until i finished my dissertation. Then i realized it wasnt history. And i dont know being able to delve into life stories and being able to delve into the history of this amazing country. I mean, how did we come to be . Thats such a such a mystery in some ways. But such a tribute to the people who founded this country. Absolutely. Before we break, let me just remind everybody that again next year, gay and david and the team and molly are all hard at work putting together another program. I like this, next year. Let me thank the society for hosting this fivepart series and cspan for covering this and not only airing it but we put together curriculum to correspond with this. And they are making it available to schools through cspans classroom so that students can watch this and learn from it. Mostly id like to thank the Vice President and dr. Cheney for coming here today. It has been a great pleasure for us. Thank you. Thank you very much. [ applause ] and there are signed copies of dr. Cheneys books in the lobby. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thursday at 7 00 p. M. Eastern, join American History tv for a live tour of the museum of the American Revolution in philadelphia. The museums president and ceo Michael Quinn and collections and exhibitions Vice PresidentScott Stevenson will introduce artifacts and exhibits throughout the museum including George Washingtons war tent and a pete of the old north bridge. Hear stories about the American Revolution and participate in the live program with your phone calls and tweets. Watch American History tv live from the museum of the American Revolution thursday starting at 7 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan3. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1979, cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. The new museum of the American Revolution just blocks away from Independence Hall and the liberty bell in philadelphia opened to the public on april 19th. Up next on American History it have tv, the opening ceremony. This is an hour and 40 minutes