Transcripts For CSPAN3 Conspiracy 20240705

The study of the history of conspire. C theory is undergoing something of a boom at the moment. Just as the study of witchcraft did a few decades ago. As other scholars have noted historians of medieval early modern europe used to view witchcraft and witch hunting as marginal aspects of the societies as they studied. Then they began to realize. That witch hunts revealed great insights into the cultures of the time. So similarly, a growing number of. Historians are realizing that an understanding of the history of Conspiracy Theory is central to understanding the current american political moment. Now, thats not to say that. The study of the history of american theory is new. In the 1960s, richard hofstadter, his landmark essay on the paranoid style in american politics, which was term for Conspiracy Theory. And historians like david bryant davis, gordon wood and Bernard Bailyn soon followed by showing the significance of conspiracies thinking in the American Revolution in early republic. Then, in the 1980s, Michael Rogan brilliantly in ronald reagan, the movie that what he called a counter tradition was, as he said at the core of american politics not its periphery beginning in the 1990s, though, there were fewer studies of Conspiracy Theory in u. S. History, and the subfield seemed pushed to the margins of the profession. But in the last decade, many historians have revived the study, the phenomenon. And we are currently living in a moment when it is becoming increasingly clear that understanding role of conspiracy theories in u. S. History is not just helpful interpreting the past, but also for providing lessons for how to challenge these theories in the present. So the four scholars here on this panel are part of this effort to understand the central unity of Conspiracy Theory to American History. All right. So let start here with our first panelist. Im going to introduce dr. Vaneesa cook, who received her ph. D. In u. S. History from the university of wisconsin, madison, in 2015 and has taught of a variety of history courses in the uw system. Her books socialists, religion and, the american left, was published in 2019 and has been recently released. Paperback from penn press. She currently serves as the historian for the missing in action project at uw madison. Vanessa, you. Thank very much. Welcome everybody. Now i am pretty new to this topic of conspiracy theories. So if i do seem woefully uninformed about them, thats accurate. My background is more my background is more in protest movements. Leftist radicalism throughout the 20th century and the history of socialism. But it me when i was reading through dr. Gan bones recently published book here on modern conspiracy theories how much many of seem to relate to an underlying fear of socialism and that and that really jumped out at me. So this talk will be about how i believe that many of these conspiracy theories throughout 20th century and into the 21st century into today may stem from that fear of socialism, particularly fears and conspiracy involving a secret totalite aryan authorities such as the deep state, highly centralized shadow government Controlling Society in the world, and concepts as one world government or new world order. Those kind of terms in, concepts that come up pretty in conspiracy theories throughout the 20th century and into today. So this of socialism in general, you know, not connected to conspiracy theories in particular, but a fear of socialism in general is a major thread of intellectual and cultural history in the past hundred plus years. And it does still continue to cause concern today. Just a of months ago or less than that, february three 2023 a congressional was proposed by members of the congress to denounce socialist ism and socialist policies. So this was just 2023, very recently, may recall. And it this resolution passed the house with republican support but also over 100 democrats also voted to denounce socialism and all socialist policy policies. Now, that may seem like a relic of the cold war era and that kind of thinking, but it just shows that this fear of socialism is still with to this day. Back in 1952, harry truman in the midst of the cold war, beginning of the cold war, said socialism, quote, socialism as a scare word that they have hurled every advance the people have made in the last 20 years. And it also a scare word for many progressive activists, many of whom ive and profiled in my work, who many them seem to shy away from it or, you know, not want to be associated with it because of the stigma and the scapegoating that was associated that term. So little bit overview as of, you know, versions of socialism existed the 1840, but it was really marx who popularized socialism with his writings in the midtolate 1800s and to to really break it down into its simplest terms, probably too simplified for the audience here. But marx argue that there were stages of history that would unfold over time. Different paradigm shifts, revolutions that would usher in a new stage of history. And he that the current stage of history was determined by the economic system, capitalist system at the time of his writing. But he argued that that would soon give way through a revolution or paradigm shift to the next stage which he called socialism in marked by characterize by a very strong, powerful centralized state authority that manage society economics, politics, to make things more equal and more efficient. Now, his end stage of history, he termed, and that was more what he believed would be a utopian type of society in which people would have learned to cooperate on their own for to promote equality, peace without that coercion from, a State Government. And so he believed that the State Government power and control eventually fade away as we transition into communist them. But it was really that argument about the the intermediary stage of socialism that concerned people and peaked peoples sense fear about that state authority and power. This all pretty theoretical and aspirational of course the bolshevik revolution world war one in russia that made this more of a reality. And put at least an experimental version of socialism on the national level. The bolshevik revolution was met by some optimism by, you know, groups of people, workers and intellectuals, but also stoked that fear among many people and and received a negative, pessimistic response for those who feared a threat to individualism and freedom subsequent eruptions of this fear and hysteria. In the 1920s, the first red scare a couple of decades later, the second red scare really resulted in a lot of blacklisting of People Associated with communism. Our fellow travelers and eruptions of violence, deportations, things of that. This continued over the course of the war and the cold war ended in the early 1990s. But just to get back to the point about conspiracy theories, i believe that many conspiracy theories that at first glance seemed to be unrelated to fear of socialism or communism actually had a deeper and engagement with it. So i can refer to agambens book here. One of the first major examples that he covers in the book is a Conspiracy Theory involving the protocols of the elders of zion, which a fictionalized manuscript supposedly written by a jewish oligarchy determined to establish kind of global dominance by the by this jewish oligarchy. And so people would quote from different passages from fabricated text that really didnt. But there were these conspiracies where it came from and how long it had been around. This really gained traction the 1920s in the United States in the midst of red scare, first red scare after world war one. So i dont think makes this point in the book, but for me it just seemed like this was an example or an early example of a one world government Conspiracy Theory or a new world order Conspiracy Theory. So a very early example of these terms that became more popular over time. So what is this one world government or new world Conspiracy Theory that i keep referring . Its a theory that there exists a secret cabal or of elites running world behind the scenes, unaccountable to the general masses or voters, and they seek to rule the world and replace nation state system and elected governments with their own authority. And furthermore these alleged authoritarians supposedly that history has been progressively in this direction to a global one world government over time. And so that was a very wordy definition, but thats basically the heart one world government or new world order, the secret, sometimes behind the scenes, sometimes developing gradually over time effort to have a nondemocratic, accountable oligarchy running things. I mentioned the first and second red scare bringing us up to the 1940s in the fifties. These of conspiracies also propagated by the John Birch Society in the mid 20th century and continuing on in the 1980s with books like garry allens none dare call conspiracy and, say no to the new world order, which came out in the mideighties. With the fall of the soviet union and the end of the cold war in the early 1990s. You think that a lot of these concerns and fears would subside, however, new world order conspiracy theories have found new life since the end of the cold war, especially with the rise of the internet communication, information and the sharing of conspiracy theories that have given them, like i said some increased of late, so in the nineties. For example, televangelist Pat Robertsons book. And in 1991 on the new world order uses that term in the title up to figures like sean hannity. Beck the fox news folks and alex jones into still using these terms. Alex jones in 22 and 2002 said quote, there is a tyrannical, organized nation calling itself the new world order, pushing for worldwide government. It is a cashless society, total and complete tyranny by centralized and socializing health care, the state becomes god basically when it comes to your health. And we basically get shoved into their system where human beings are absolutely worthless and quote. So, alex jones again using that kind of language and me, i think you can hear echoes of this fear of socialism in that language. Opposition to this marcus marxist and these stages of history moving towards a collectivist government government. In in that kind of language. Even theories that involve cover up. So anything from sandy hook as a cover up or cam trails or covid as a cover up i can also see some connections here with a fear of this one world government or new world order. If you have Something Like that a big cover up that requires a lot of people together to keep it going. I mean, its not hard. Imagine you would have to invent a secret Society Working behind the scenes to keep manufacturing that and duping the public. But these these theories hand in hand, again, with this new world order, one world government that i really believe stems from this ongoing fear of socialized them theories. Qanon as well that cambone does cover in the book. And if youre familiar with the intricacies and details of their theories, again you can see how the thread of those concepts come from these conspiracy theories of new world order, one world government, predating these more recent cover ups in time. So these conspiracies are no longer since the end of the cold war. A bipolar contest between two major powers, such as the u. S. And, the ussr. But they are a much larger battle between forces of centralization across the globe and those fighting to preserve small government nationalism and autonomy. And so and others, of course, drawing these battle lines. So to sum up, ironically perhaps im explaining current conspiracy with a Conspiracy Theory of my own and that that they often link back back to this deep seated fear of socialism and communism, which im maybe, you know, making that connection to simplified. But that is my argument today. And if we just come back to my opening example of the very recent congressional resolution against socialism, it may seem anachronistic or a throwback to cold war rhetoric, but in the context of these conspiracy, i think that a lot politicians are trying to pander to their constituency, hence who believe in these conspiracy theories, or theres still this fear among liberals. They dont want to be associated with these these concepts terms as well. Concerns about russia and russian interference have also persisted since the end of the cold war. And that will be the topic of my sean in his talk next. So thank you. All. Our second speaker is sean denniss. Hes an associate professor, the department of history, Political Science and ethnic studies at Long Beach City College and author of bowls markets chicagos, basketball, business and the new inequality. He is currently editing for publication a manuscript his late friend and colleague chris lamberti on the history of the 1919 chicago race riot. Hes in the initial phases of a book project on the history of scapegoating in the modern u. S. Sean. While im studying up, im going to replicate a practice in my undergrad courses to start presentation off with a joke because history is really depressing and its going to follow up on the nieces to did you know that a communist joke is not funny unless everybody gets it. All right. So actually, rather than talking about the history and the analysis of conspiracy theories as part of history, what i want to do today is actually about the analysis of conspiracy theories as part of historians performing their role as public intellectuals and. The way i want to do this is by talking about case of a very respected and wellregarded history. Heather richardson. How many of you know of Heather Cox Richardson . Okay. All right. All right. So what i want to talk about in this, in the way in which richardsons intellectual ism raises important questions, i think about our role as historians and talking about conspiracy is that are allegedly happening in current moment. So those of you that arent familiar with richardson, shes a bit of a ive actually more than bit of a star through her substack. For those of you that dont know what substack is, its like a direct writer to reader platform thats not mediated by a press or editor. So journalist, academic other writers use it. Hers is letters from an american and essentially the way that she builds it is offering an analysis of Current Events that is grounded in more thoughtful Historical Context than youll get reading newspapers or watching cable news. And in a recent New York Times profile on richardson one of the things they emphasized and she emphasizes this and im drawing on the bottom quote here is that shes offering something that you cant find in the Mainstream Media. That is, again, that Historical Context that doesnt necessarily exist when. Youre watching cnn and fox news or msnbc or even reading the New York Times. What im going to argue here is that richardson letters from american letters from an american, actually, a really interesting case study in how historians are participating in mass media commentary on allegedly current conspiracy during the trump era risk a range of intellectual missteps, including replicating the good versus evil Mainstream Media analysis that we see on conspiracy theories while also lending at a kind of scholarly or legitimacy. And i mean, something quite specific by good versus evil framework and talking about conspiracy theories. Its a framework where the legitimacy or validity Conspiracy Theory is not based on whether can empirically support it. Its based on whether it negatively implicates political opponents. Right. So if youre a democrat, a Conspiracy Theory is valid. If it sheds negative light on republicans and vice versa. And i think what were going to see is the way in which kind of wading this stuff in a current event context can take a very thoughtful and respectable scholar and them into this uncritical space of im on team democrat, therefore everything negative can possibly be said about my opponents is going to be grounded in my allegedly allegedly, historically contextualized blog and. The other thing that i think we see in this gets to the russian that that the russian interference theme that the nsa was alluding to is that. One of the things, by the way, you had to read through 6000 pages of this blog like i did over the past couple of months. One of the things youll find is the that it really reinforces the Mainstream Media notion that every problem that america faces economically and social is essentially imported from russia. Okay, so why focus on richardson . Of the reasons im actually focusing on richardson is because i actually genuinely respect her as a scholar. Im a Community College instructors talk about i teach lots of survey courses. I rely a lot on her work, particularly on the wounded massacre and political conspiracies. Surrounding that. So she actually has a very, very you know legit scholarly credentials. But importantly, its her reach. Her substack has become so popular that based on the best public data that we available to us, she has of thousands of subscribers and an on annual basis is earning about gross pretax at least 5 million from her substack a year. And you can see that it dwarfs in terms of revenue pretty much everything comes after its its orders of magnitude. The other thing talked about she she lends her credentials and, quotations and insights to a wide range of media outlets. This ranges from kind of antitrump right wing outlets or conservative outlets. The Lincoln Project to writing to for bill moyers to writing for more left wing outlets like jacobin. Getting profiled in the New York Times. Appearing pbs. Shes all over the place. Right. And i think that actually gives us as historians a little hope that we can be relevant to the conversation. But when i want to talk about here is maybe thinking a little bit more critically about our own roles in that conversation. Shes been named woman of the year or a of the year by usa today. Again and again just just i want to emphasize here that that my interest in in letters from american and her public intellectual ism is based both on her scholarly record and also the fact as a Community College instructor, im always very interested in how try to engage in mass packaging complex Historical Concepts in a way thats more accessible. And again, this is just a few pictures of some some interesting work that shes done. Okay. So getting to the actual substack, one of the first things i noticed was that shes very interested in the rise of american oligarchy. A conspiracy. Okay. And if you actually at the usage of the term oligarchy in her substack, overwhelmingly the term refers to foreign oligarchs, russian and ukrainian oligarchs specifically. Sometimes she about it in the us context, but its almost always in the context of slave oligarchs in the south, which hes interested in historically. So this sort of organic history of oligarchy in the us is kind of relegated to a precivil war and post immediately post reconstruction in context sometimes link oligarchy kind of organically. Trump and the gop never will she link to the democrats in the United States who, as you can see, this is a 182 occurrences of the term oligarchy. Overwhelmingly in her mind, oligarchy is something defined by Eastern European ism being russian. Ukrainian, and thats being imported or mimicked by by the trump gop and leading to a rise of oligarchy in the United States. So this notion that russia and ukraine have oligarchs. We have businessmen is something thats completely mimicking what the Mainstream Media does. Fairness and accurate accuracy in reporting. Media Watchdog Group has documented at length. This is a kind of american exceptionalism when it comes to talking about economic the rise of neoliberalism throughout the United States, europe and elsewhere. And so i immediately began to think what actually looks like shes doing the exact same thing. The New York Times and msnbc and the washington have been doing. And i thought a little bit more about the sort of Historical Context, because i thought, okay, maybe theres something here that im missing. And i did notice that. She does move back little bit in time to talk about american, but when she contextualize that context lies historically, she it every single time to the rise of Movement Conservatism in the United States. Thats the term she uses the story that i think ive become much more convinced of in my own work and i think is fairly accepted a consensus by modern americanness is that yes Movement Conservatism has been a if not the primary driver of growing inequality oligarchy in the us, but that theres another many other parts of this story, including the ways in which new democrat as the Democratic Leadership Council and generally liberal and neoliberals have have played a partner role in bringing along changes like, you know, a political system thats more awash in money, pay to play, etc. , etc. So she does move into the Historical Context, focusing on the United States as opposed to russia, ukraine. Its always focused on the right wing. So always mentioning move moving conservatism, never concepts like neoliberalism or new democrat. And this matters. Her readers pick up on this. You can look in the comments. They thank her for teaching them about Movement Conservatism, but of course are maybe not aware that there is a much bigger story. So my was where are the domestic democratic oligarchs in the United States . Because of course, another aspect of the historiography of, the 20th century in the United States is that the the the rise of oligarchy, postnew deal happens well before the fall of the soviet union and the rise of putins russia. I noticed immediately when i went on the forbes 400 that the majority of the top ten richest americans, primarily democratic donors, when it comes to Campaign Contributions that seems pretty entrenched within an american oligarchic system to me and one of the other things that i really noticed and this gets into the my team versus your team good versus evil is there are individuals that become heroes in her substack that are very, very deeply entrenched in american oligarchy. It doesnt actually take that Much Research to find out. Her hero in the blog is, adam schiff. Or is schiff sorry, i almost enlisted the shifty shifting but hes locally relevant right . Hes a con congressman from los and schiff is one of if youve watched if you know if youve watched his speeches for the last five or six years, whatever, hes one of the most aggressive Foreign Policy hawks, not just in the democratic party, but in the congress in general. He was at the front of arguing for us of the saudi intervention in yemen. In yemen, he has this amazing quote, the united adds ukraine so that we can fight russia over there and we dont have to fight russia here. That was news to when i when i heard about it. And im saying that her analysis of all of what schiff says is necessarily wrong, but she frames him simply as a defender of democracy against trump. Right. Never once a question raised. Never once a quick thing and never once is a question raised like i would imagine any critically thinking historian would would think about is is it possible that the fact he gets tens and tens of thousands of dollars from the military Industrial Complex is motivating him to constantly about the danger of russia and eastern europe. It just seems like a basic Critical Thinking question that i think of my undergrads would understand as well. So of thinking along those lines, you see its very, very hagiographic. Adam is a model for brains and morals. Hes a masterful speaker, as opposed to a hack politician. All. Sorry. So she mentioned shift by name. Any times in the newsletters i looked, she posted screenshots repeatedly. Never once. A critical question why he might be so hawkish against russia and other parts of the world. The other is thats really interesting is never a critical question when he when people like schiff continue to defend conspiracy like the validity of the steele dossier tape all that kind of stuff even when evidence has emerged that theyre not reliable or totally debunked. And i just want to i want to start to wrap up by saying that that she begins to actually replicate exactly what her hero, adam schiff, does in her own analysis of conspiracy. Do you remember the russian bounty allegations from 2020 that putin was paying the taliban to kill soldiers . Of course, we center the possible explanation that those soldiers were being targeted because they were occupying afghanistan. It had to be russian bounties. She mentioned this story a total of 14 and 14 separate posts between june 2020 and april 14, 2021. On april 15th. American officials told the Mainstream Media that the intelligence this idea was faulty or not particularly reliable and entire theme disappeared. From the blog immediately. She never brought it up again. So this sort of shows what i think is a Critical Thinking problem in this particular type of plic intellectual ism, which is as historians, were to go back and reevaluate and revise our conclusions when we find new information. Instead of just going silent on it. Thats something that weve seen in the Mainstream Media lot. Im going to im actually going to since im running out of time, i just want to skip forward and kind of also show that i think theres an emotional element to this that we have to appreciate. And ill just speak real briefly on this is an interview that richardson did with biden. I think one thing we have to think about, historian interviewing the president. You can tell me youd have to clear the questions first. Right youre not going to be able to ask a wide range of critical questions. Oops, sorry. Does anyone know how to do this. Mr. President , is such a joy to be here with you in this working on this historic day. Can you hear that back there . You can. All right. Sorry. Mr. President. Its such a joy to be here with you in this historic work on this day, with a historic presence. Oh, goodness. Mr. President , is such a joy to be here with this historic work on this historic day, with a historic president. Im not going to make you talk about the historic room, but lets start with the historic day. Today was the day she nominated thomas Brown Jackson to for the Supreme Court. Shes a highly justice and so i would just say this sounds to me a lot more like a cheerleader than it does historical inquiry. We can look at another quick one while you were sitting here. I have described you a transformational president who was recovering the traditional idea of american democracy. That was a established by Abraham Lincoln and roosevelt. And then after. But i have suggested that you are picking up as they and really who doesnt immediately of joe biden after they think of Franklin Delano roosevelt. Right. I mean, thats the first thing that comes to mind, of course. Sorry. So, dan. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we can deal with the rest of this questions, but i just wanted to sort of finish up by saying that a lot of what i think were seeing here is, is a kind of cardinal sin that we try to remind ourselves of not committing, which is not with emotion. Right. Using phrases like were particularly about something. We all come with our biases and point of view. But when it becomes about which team our subjects are on, it can often lead us astray. And then i just wanted to also mention that its billed as a make alternative to Mainstream Media. But if you look at her sourcing, its all Mainstream Media. So thats all i got. Thank you you. All right. I wish that i had known in advance what the topic of the paper was going to be, because i would have told you so that they could invite professor richardson to be here, so that she could respond to get me on her podcast podcast. All right. So next speaker is nina gonzalez. Nina is a ph. D. Student at the university of california davis, a latina from el paso, texas. She became inspired to study the history of far right extremism and theories. Racial replacement after a mass shooting was out by a white supremacist in her hometown in 2019. Her interests include us conservatism and extremist groups. Immigration, conspiracy theories and the history and legacy of white supremacy. The United States. She also holds a bachelor of arts and master of arts from uc davis, both in history. Nina. Hi, everyone. As i get this set up, um. I just wanted to note that this is kind of part of a larger paper ive adapted to in the shortest version i could make for this. So, um, uh, this is just a part of some of the other things that im working on and some of my sources. Well see if this works. Um. Okay. And i appreciate any and all feedback of how i can revise this project as i approach my dissertation proposal later this year. And so my paper is entitled the truth set you free. Sorry. There you go. I can see it on my end now. Okay the truth will set you free. The fire embrace of new age conspiracy theories in the mid 20th century. So how to create a meditation practice you will stick with. Why we all need and how to heal your exercise past and get moving for life are just a few titles of videos that you may see. Pop up on your facebook feed. If you or any of your have an interest in health or wellness. These videos created by a smiling middle aged blond woman named dr. Christiaan nordstrom, may seem innocuous enough by their titles. However, click through nordstrom profile and youll soon find posts claiming that vitamin c can cure covid 19, that the 2020 election was stolen donald trump and that the cia is actually run out of china. All in the same ft as posts about crystal frequencies and how to protect your energy field. Dr. North strap, a former physician, was once a regular on the Oprah Winfrey show, is just one example of a certain type of character has seemed to rise to prominence in far right spaces in the last several years. The wellness guru influencer turned right wing conspiracy theorist certainly, the crunchy too far right pipeline has a common discussion topic among. Social media users, journalists and historians alike. Many are baffled by the question of how people who champion new age spirituality, natural eating habits and, environmentalism could be seemingly converse it overnight into q and on believing antimask. But the connection between this seemingly left leaning wellness subculture and far right white supremacist organized actually has quite the detailed history in the United States, dating as far back as the turn of the 20th century and the rise of the eugenics movement. While the term pipeline is often to describe modern day conversion of health and wellness enthusiasts to right wing extremist acts, usually through facebook groups or the youtube algorithm earlier of both wellness culture and white supremacist culture show a tremendous overlap, indicating the two have been inherently intertwined since wellness cultures rise in 20th century American History. And while the far right has definitely utilized health and wellness rhetoric to attract new members, its cause. I argue that there is also long existed a faction of right extremists who have genuinely believed in and embraced what we might call new age spirituality, ideology. Wellness practices. So i want to make a quick note, just on terminology. Throughout this paper, i utilize the terms left and right to describe the two groups i discuss here. I am relying more on a laymans definition of the terms rather than a formal political one. I use the term leftist to describe a collection of ideas associated with social equality and progressivism environmentalism and critiques of capitalism. My use of the term the far right refers to ideas associated with nationalism ultra conservatism, nativism and white supremacy. Furthermore for ease of comprehension, i use the phrase new age to describe the vast array of practices and ideologies associated with spiritual occultism, holistic, alternative medicine, and strong beliefs about natural food and living. The covid 19 pandemic, showcased on a National Scale how opposition to vaccines could be a strong, uniting force among leaning hippie types and far right extremists. Antivaccination, a representative example of a commonality, shared the two. It simultaneously reveals underlying themes common to both movements belief in alternative medicine practices and distrust of the western medical establishment. A desire for, bodily purity and avoidance of toxins and a propensity for belief and conspiracy theories. But there are numerous other choices and worldviews that these two groups have in common, both in their current iterations and their historical ones. The choice to homeschool, for example, a desire to educate youth outside the reach of federal and state mandated curricula for the new jersey mom who runs the hippie homeschool facebook page. Homeschooling her children means teaching them the real history, not the fantasy, fed to us in most institutional settings. This includes educating them on critical theory and feeding them, quote, healthy, nutritious meals, overprocessed convenience, logging and culture. Laurence of sandusky, ohio, also that Public School curriculum would do more harm than good for their children. Their decision telegram channel prior to being shut down in january shared various homeschool resources for white supremacist neonazi parents, hoping to their children in the same tradition. While the hippie homeschool and the dissident homeschool networks might seem to inhabit entirely disparate worlds, the rhetoric they use is often surprisingly similar. Both believe that individualizing their childrens learning plans provides a, quote, true education, something impossible to gain from Public Schools. Both left wing and right wing of homeschooling reflect broader historical underpinnings of both movements a desire for sovereignty, a distrust in state supported institutions, and a tendency view oneself as morally superior to. Similar are reflected in back to the land movements which have historically been adopted by both counterculture to hippies and White Supremacists. Kathleen belew has noted how white supremacist compounds and hippie communes at times existed in the same Rural Communities in the 1970s and eighties. Each desiring to live off the grid and, away from government intervention, modern and processed food and medicine inherent to this idea is a longing for an idealized past or a simpler time. Rhetoric eerily to the plantation fiction genre arose during reconstruction. Both white supremacist and leftist Rural Communities are also known to support midwifery natural eating habits and alternative medicine practices, demonstrating a deep distrust of government and modern medicine. That is also seen, of course, in opposition vaccination, distrust government combined with an egocentric worldview, also leaves both groups particularly susceptible to conspiracy theories. A conspiracy occurs when a group of people plan secretly to do something that is negative, illegal or harmful. A Conspiracy Theory. Then, can be most clearly defined as the unproven belief that a conspiracy has occurred. Today. A significant majority of people who down the modern far left too right pipeline are in doctrine aided via conspiracy theories, often spread through social networks or, online media. For example, cunanan and the Conspiracy Theory that a secret cabal of sexual abuse of children, including clinton and tom hanks, are a global child sex trafficking ring conspiring against donald trump has won many followers through its. Hashtag save the children, both far left and far right exhibited iteration of the style. The professor was mentioning earlier. Seeing their entire nation culture or way of life as the primary target of a nefarious against them. Often this takes on an apocalyptic tone with the stakes raised to now or never and already inherent distrust in government and a belief that one is morally and intellectually superior to others. It becomes harder for a person of either group to distinguish truth from falsehood and becomes easier for them to believe in increasingly more dangerous conspiracy theories. Observing the wellness too far right raises many important questions, particularly scholars and twitter users have wondered whether far right extremists have purposefully adopted new age type language and practices as means of attracting fringe leftists to their cause rather than out of genuine belief. There is most definitely truth behind this idea. As Kathleen Belew has observed, white power as a movement is built around the ability to understand our mainstream culture is vulnerable and to use those vulnerabilities for its purposes. Far right extremist movements are and have historically been opportunistic according to sociologist kathleen bailey, members of the second clan adapted. Their agendas to reflect local issues as a means of recruitment. Clan organizers quote encouraged to study their territories identify the sources of concern native born protestant whites and offer the clan as a solution. White power groups have also known to shift their rhetoric and practices to meet cultural zeitgeist. Whether that means wearing fashionable clothing or in the hardcore music scene. More recently, this has been exhibited in the adoption of culturally relevant memes and lingo by the alt right in online spaces, an attempt to make extremist political ideology seem humorous or commonplace. I agree that far right groups doubtless utilized the anti statist left belief in new wellness practices as means of recruitment. However, i contend that new age spirituality practices and languages language thats also been genuinely adopted by factions of white supremacist militant extremist groups since the mid 20th century. Historian natalia zar recent book fit nation demonstrates how the early Fitness Movement was inherently tied to white supremacy. As white men and women were encouraged to strengthen their bodies so as to ensure the propagation of the race and protect against race. Racial replacement by immigrants. Minorities. Dieting has a similar history. Helen, zoe writes food moral food details. How progressive era ideas of selfdiscipline as a moral virtue led to new rules. How white americans should be eating eugenicist proposed that adoption of certain diets could the virility of the entire race. Thus it is clear to see the roots of the lard that the larger wellness industry has to white supremacy. Still, i have found that members of the american far right embrace just dieting and exercise. But far more avant garde forms of wellness and spirituality, often age, language and ideology was blended with traditional far right talking points, including blatant racism, christian extremism and anticommunist underlying these various were themes of moral and physical purity, distrust of government in modern medicine and a conspiratorial worldview. Although this type of thinking not a dominant trait among all members of the far right, i argue there are still significant to be found in its existence as a demonstrate that new age ideology has been exclusively or explicitly leftist giving us a deeper insight into the modern to and on pipeline. So one of my major archival sources for this project are mail order books published by a company entitled michael omni hill research. Around here of los angeles, there is Little Information Available Online about these booklets, but i found record of them being published from the midninety fifties through the 1970s. Each of these booklets is hundreds of pages and they are composed of a collection of previously published works by various authors. Musings on Current Events. Advertisements for other far right and extremist publications and book lists for. Further recommended reading. So i want to showcase one of these booklets now, sort of a representative example of my source base. This particular michael omni Health Research book entitled what is truth showcases right away the two schools of thought which are blended inside. There is no formal publication date printed, but based on articles inside, i believe it was published around the late 1950s. On the front cover, four quotes demonstrate the supposed truth behind the National Banking system commun ism the power of the federal government and the united nations, namely the end goal of communism in the u. N. Is destroy the United States, that banks are not to be trusted, and that if the Supreme Court gains too much power. The citizens of the u. S. Will cease to be free. On the back cover, there is only this insignia. With the publication title in the center of the words mental, physical, spiritual, healing inscribed on the rim. Inside the circle two quotes. The truth shall make you free. And wash me with hyssop. And i shall be clean. The former showcases language common to new age conspiracy believers and reflects the idea that searching for the story behind government activities or medical and technological advances is a form of spiritual enlightenment. In fact, far right facebook guru christiane knorr strep regularly uses the phrase the truth resonates at a different vibration. To discuss opposition to the covid vaccine. The second quote wash me with high slop and i shall be clean. Taken from the bible. Psalm 51 seven. In other translations, the word wash is actually replaced with the word purge or purity showing a Common Thread underlying the type of thoughts reflected in the booklet. So inside the booklet her articles the communist conspiracy and conservative strategy impeach warren and the greatest subversive plot in history. A six page long Conspiracy Theory diatribe that claims unescos is teaching communism to children through mind control. One passage characterizes progressive as an elaborate fraud to perpetuate it by a gang of parasites who exploit the gullibility of taxpayers. Another begs far right activists to band together to, quote, put an end to the unholy power of the liberal communist cabal. The booklet also contains virulent racism. Multiple articles refer to the acp as the, quote, ku klux klan. One piece entitled segregation in the south argues that there exists a clear i. Q. Difference black and white americans as, quote of all the races that have been on this earth, the race is the only race that lacked mental ability and the imagination to put its dreams hopes and thoughts in writing. Later this booklet we see claims that black men are to violence and addiction, that the black race entirely is, quote, non moral and deviant, and that the real victim. The future of the american republic. The christian religion and the white race. However, alongside these articles we also see michael omni Health Research publishing pieces about occult phenomena. Alternative medicine practices and naturopath living and diets. Multiple articles condemn the food and Drug Administration is even referred to as the food and drug hoodlums. One article claims the fda is acting as a tool and just stop bow to join in giant conspiracy to quote brainwash our people and keep them in ignorance by destroying their constitutional freedoms. The addiction to synthetic man vitamins is a purposeful plot on behalf these groups who all quote, stand to profit most when disease is greatest. Article warns against water fluoridation a major uniting front among far right groups. Environmentalists in the late 20th century, a particular issue taken up by the John Birch Society. Following in line with the theme of conspiratorial fluoride is portrayed as a communist master plan to destroy our military manpower and consistent with the antiscience themes throughout. One section urges maccallum to heal Health Readers to write a letter. California governor Goodwin Knight expressing extreme disturbance over taxpayers money being spent to fund the polio vaccine. Here we see a direct reflection of current, antivax situation being used in the 1950s. The article claims, the vaccine, quote, has killed many people, caused paralysis in many more who would have undoubtedly been welltodo. The shots of the silk toxoid. While the michael omni hill Health Research booklets are just one of the sources ive chosen to highlight for this short presentation, i have come across several other publications in the archives that follow similar patterns. Example. These newsletters also out of california in the 1950s and sixties under the title the beacon light herald featured the unfiltered thoughts of a man named william corcoran, who claims be the reincarnation of joshua. These booklets directly combine christian extremism with occult spirituality. Each starts with an astrological prediction for the future of american politics, often cloaking racist and anticommunist conspiracy theories under spiritual language. So to wrap up white supremacist and christian extremist movements, do you have a strong history of adopting culturally popular rhetoric and practices to recruit new members to their cause . However, i believe the archival sources i have found demonstrate that there has been some population of the far right that has been interested in new ideas since. The mid 20th century. The blatant see with which these booklets and newsletters blend age, ideology and far right language, combined with the fact that many of them were found among archival collections previously owned known White Supremacists demonstrates there was some interest in this type of spirituality and practice outside of just opportunism alone. Examining the ways in which far right and far left movements have intersected throughout, history provides us with a deeper understanding of current fears over a crunchy tissue and on pipeline. It also demonstrates political categorizations are often more malleable than they might seem, while on policy might fall strictly to like right left divide, philosophical and cultural practices can and have history crossed political lines. Most especially the susceptibility to belief conspiracy theories, whether arising from an anti status perspective, medical anxiety, an egocentric worldview or some combination of these ideas and continues to unite those on both the left and right. French. Thank you. All right, our speaker is, dr. Michael gambone, who received doctorate from the university of chicago in 1993. His recent include modern conspiracies in america, separating fact from fiction and the new pretorians modern American Veterans society and service in the forever war. Hes also published articles in the journal of military ethics, armed forces and society, the journal of world studies and the yale journal of international studies. Dr. Is currently a professor of history at cutts town, university of pennsylvania new. So the obvious old guy here. And i knew that day would come. Im taking a slightly different approach to the topic. This is, for all intents and purposes, my third historical career and. I basically stumbled into it about six years ago, and what im really just going to be talking about for the next few minutes is the pedagogy of teaching, you know, conspiracies. Um, theyre really framing issues. I wanted to get off to a start with and get most obvious one out of the way. It was covid. I remember almost exactly to day three years ago when my campus shut down and we all had to go online and i had never done that before. And i thought to myself, well, heres my moment. Be just like Robin Williams in dead society. And that is not how it out at all. I had an 8 a. M. Class on conspiracies with 70 students on zoom and i got to look at black boxes and do my best to basically perform theater for 15 weeks. And we did it. But it wasnt pretty. And i think about the lasting effects of that, not to say how much more complicated Online Learning is, but also the impact that itll have on my future students. We all probably saw the studies, grade schoolers and eighth graders in particular. And when i saw that, i thought, well, in five years theyre my kids, ill be seeing them. So thats one thing i have to fix or we have to talk even before we talk about conspiracies. The other part and ive seen it mentioned in this conference a lot and im glad is how much more politicized learning become. And i in eastern pennsylvania near bucks county, and when the New York Times shows up to school board meetings, its usually not for good reason. But theyre there and theyre listening and a parent in a may 2021 meeting said you know and she declared, quote, demonic adults are recruiting brainwashing, participating in unconscionable behaviors with our children and every one of you know it unquote. I really i started to think about that when she said demonic adults means us. Okay. And i look that in the Historical Context, and i think weve always had demagogues. I teach mccarthy, i teach spiro agnew. Theyre like the triplea Gold Standard of that. And theyre not alone. They could demonize us, but ive never realized now we have people calling us actual demons. Okay, well, this is a moral struggle in the classrooms, and were the ground zero of it. And teaching conspiracies while youre trying to forestall all that has become important. How we fix that . We remember our training. And when i went to university, chicago, i was a latin american. That was my first career. I studied somoza and the cold war. And we had our terminology. Had our reading. I knew what the dependency theory was, because thats what John Coatsworth taught me. We flew our flags for tribes in history, and thats how it works. We all do that. But one of the things i start to learn is i teach the conspiracy classes. I start moving into other fields. And i read a very good journal from stanford and university of maryland faculty from last year and talking about the educational psychology of conspiracies and, Online Learning. And i ran across this word called heuristics, and ill be i looked it up because i didnt know what it was. Right. And ill admit it because, its not in my field. I dont use it. I know what it means because i have used that idea. But i had to relearn a new language in order to teach a new version of conspiracies. And thats what we do. And i look at my class and i start cataloging the different that are involved in it. Believe it or not, i even use science in my field. I know that sounds like, you know, a taboo, but its important, especially adam verbinskis on polling and the elite theory. Um, i looked at forensic pathology when we do the kennedy. I look climatology when we do chem trails. I look at Structural Engineering physics at a high school. My High School Student kid checked my math because physics and history, i looking at state and federal constitutional law when we Start Talking about elections. Right. I know that florida has a different standard to count its ballots in pennsylvania. Right. And didnt before i became a precinct judge, which i am now. And of course, to go back to where we started immunology and covid, because were all amateur immunology just now and none of us knows what were doing right. All these things are designed to create complexity and thats good thats what were here to do. We create the complex v, we examine it. But there are limits in making our jargon impenetrable that nobody understand us. So really, teachers are almost like ambassadors, right . But one of the things i realized in all of that, all this crossdisciplinary and interdisciplinary study is a basic point. And i came to it reading roosevelt book rescuing socrates. He keeps talking about traditional liberal Arts Education and how we can make all these disciplines work and how we can let students start to discover themselves, be selfaware. And what i basically starting to teach this conspiracy class is stumbled into a classic liberal education, and thats a good thing. But never in my wildest dreams. 30 years ago. What i think i would have done that by telling my students, Queen Elizabeth is not an alien lizard and but thats how im doing it. And. One of the ways you can start translating is to realize that and have that selfawareness. And one of the methods you can use is to have humor. We all do it right. A lot of what we do in the big classrooms is almost like theater because they do bring lunch right . But the absurd duty of it all is very good. Im amazed at how many of my kids are angry that the watergate were so incompetent. And its to see that you mean they couldnt get the filing cabinet open and now they couldnt. And heres the picture from the smithsonian. Prove it. But we have to understand the limits of that, because you can be the generator of laughs and then you start trivializing what youre trying to say and you got to strike the balance. So thats the important of here, balancing the fields, balancing the translations, balancing the. Right. Were going to have week on sandy hook. Right. And that is a hard topic to teach. Its a hard topic to write about. But i it because there are things they need to when we talk about all these standards and responsibilities and im going to lay them on the people and the academics who dont believe sandy happened. All right. They deserve that scrutiny. All right. Lets see, how am i doing for time . Seven and a half minutes. I can do it. Yeah. More specifically to how i teach, we can talk about more the structure of the class. But i learned a very important from Kathryn Olmsted and im happy to meet her because ive been using her book class for six years and thats kind of a neat thing when you can do that. When i started her book real enemies, there was a point she made about difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy and the way she describes it is basically this, quote, a Conspiracy Theory is a proposal about a conspiracy that may or may not be true. It has yet to be proven right, unquote and i look at that and its simple. Its very elegant. But what its doing here is, its inviting your students into a conversation. Lets talk about proof. Lets talk about matching the claim with the proofs. And thats where you begin. Because you look at the popularity of some of these conspiracies. And, you know, nina and almost all the people mentioned q and on today, one of the biggest draws of q on is that its interactive. Youre inviting that person into a scenario. The best teachers do that that offer the student chance to talk and to basically part of a guided conversation. So thats one of the basic things i learned that i use in my class all the time in terms of the rest, i dont have time to talk about the rest, but ill do the best i can. I break down my treatment. These with a basic formula. Lets about the claim or claims, tell me about the protagoras. Tell me about their motives. Tell me about their objectives. Right. Tell me how or small this thing was. Because we can start. Talking about probability and math. Right. Lets talk about context. The history was a Historical Context. Im teaching 911 this week and im amazed at how few of my kids know that . More than two planes were involved . Because if you look at the birth date of a freshman. In 2005. Right. So whats happening to 911 has already happened to me with the cold war. When i started, everybody knew what it was had how many people who served in it . I did right. The old years. Right. But thats now thats an abstract. What made our response a reflection its time. Right. What the conspiracy traction. Right. These are all good contextual to know. We can talk about the red scares one and two. Lets talk about nativism of the time. Lets talk about the lets talk about the scapegoating. What we start to tease in all these stories is continuity. And there are some distinctions right . I mean, hofstadter treated paranoid style like it was on the its not its at my school board now. Right. So we can context to address the claim. We can use context to. Address the audience. Right. We can see what they thought was plausible, not 100 certainty, but plausible. Right. Last thing ill mention because im coming up close evidence. Right. What are the types . Right. What a primary source. And what is a secondary source . One of the best interactions enjoy is talking about mark lane and how he approached the Warren Commission because he used the official story to debunk the official story. And that happens the time. It becomes like the canon for the promoter and the debunker. But hes focusing on are mistakes and, blind spots and a lot of its deliberate. Right. Doing my research, my early secondary stages of preparedness. Im reading Kathryn Olmsted. Im reading mark michael barkin. Im reading a of different authors who talked about mistakes and agendas and deliberate or not that People Like Us dive into and Start Talking about. Are there limits . Sure. The evidence will evolve. And we know this from the House Special Committee on assassinations. We know this from gerald posners examinations. Time and technology change. Right. We learned more as it goes, declassification and changes. Right. Thats the tonkin resolution. Right. And what changed in 40 years of cryptology being declassified in the early 2000 . So what youre going to have to teach beyond all things were talking about is understanding youre not going to get 100 certainty. And what youre going to have to do and im gonna have to teach this to an undergraduate, youre going to have to be patient. Right. Because not all the answers are forthcoming immediately. And thats hard because fighting the battle of, well, you know, the Online Platforms are looking at when people like me are talking, right on tick tock or instagram to at the ncaa highlights while im trying to offer some profound thought. But i think thats worth wild. Last thing ill mention is im really coming close. One of the ways i do this is ive Group Projects and i say, look, you can a group of advocates and you can pick any single you want. It could be the craziest youve ever thought of or the most serious one you want to advocate for. Thats you apply the formula we talked about claim evidence, and then i have a separate set of students. I said, youre the debunkers. When time comes, see what theyre doing, im going to match you together and youre going to examine what they did and youre going to apply the same model and use the same process. But what i really want them do is learn how to engage in a civil discourse right, because thats what college is for right . Agree to disagree. I had a great of kids and they basically their claim the United States created ices. That was their conspiracy claim. I said, right, what are you going to do . I had a veteran iraq and an accounting major right in the group and what they actually did was they looked at the special Inspector General reports on iraq and started looking at the colossal amount of waste and fraud that happened right. So not direct creation, but. All right. Now were into an interesting realm here and now were talking about facts and spreadsheets and primary sources and a war, right. That they didnt have to fight, but it might be a cautionary tale. For one, they might have too soon. Right. So i think theres a lot of value in how we approach this and how we do. And that was my last best shot on my the third part of my academic career. So i have about ten more years to go. Well see what fourth one will be. So i thank you all for being here. And i really appreciate the time. Thank you. All right. Thank you. It like we have 22 minutes for discussion questions and, uh, do they do the people in the audience need to use those microphones, cspan people . Yes. Okay so if you have a question, can you please go ask it there . And if possible, of course, the best questions are ones that involve more than one person on the panel. If you can. But whatever your questions are, if you could please move and speak it into the microphone. Okay . Yeah. Thank you very much for the presentation. My name is childe. I teach American History to college in in germany. So to begin coming over from from europe to this to this, its quite interesting that these conspiracy theories so much more prevalent in this country. They are in most other countries that that i and i wonder was that something thats deep inside the american psyche when im here time when im watching television the evening i find that the American Media do not present real life. America, do you live constantly a in a fantasy world in this country it is a simpsons set adults watch it its its fox news. It has nothing to do with reality. Its its ads for for for for for for medicine that. Make you beautiful and strong. So does this have something to do with it . And of course, theres this aspect of of of religion i mean, this is a country, but two thirds of all adults believe in the existence of angels. So is that is that really surprising that you that you that you find conspire theories here . And my second question or comment is with all those conspiracy theories you have to ask quibbling or who profits from that. This is particularly prevalent when you look at when you look at fox news we know from from the from the voting case that the the fox news hosts they despise trump. He thinks hes an hes an idiot and a jerk, but they still promote this ideas they make oodles and oodles of money of that. Thats an aspect that perhaps you could address address. All right. I can take that but id like to give the panel some if anybody wants to take that on the panel. Okay. Go ahead. My own this just working. Can you hear me . Okay, um, monetizing controversies is a growing field. Um, youtube is the perfect platform to. Generate controversy and generate clicks and ad revenue. So its not, i think, specifically related to conspiracies, but its there up until recently, alex jones had money. But if you look at his website, he has a store and he monetized solutions. So theres a long string of economics of this, a lot of good recent scholarship on that i think hofstadter right. In terms of the usefulness of the style and i keep hitting the word style hard when i teach this because scapegoat ing political opponents to undermine credibility. You know, vaneesa cook talked about it all my colleagues on this panel about it it gainesville oats it appeals to the base thats its a time honored tradition. I dont think its necessarily limited to america. But we are also very good at monetizing things, you know, but one of the things i picked up in my research for the protocols is how much agency gained europe before it came here, before henry ford got his hands on it. The British Foreign office was signing off on this and so is winston churchill. So i, i dont think were unique. Definitely the best case example now, so ill leave it at that. Yeah, i would agree were not unique. Perhaps theres more conspiracism here than there is in europe, but there are other parts of the world where theres more than there is in the United States. So its all relative. Also, i would echo what michael said about, the prophet. Theres a long history in the United States of theorists realizing that they could monetize fear, going out and spreading fear deliberately believing in the theories that theyre spreading. You know, joe mccarthy would be key example there. I dont know about alex jones. I dont know if he in what he says. I really dont think mccarthy did, though. He just saw an opportunity he and far as religion goes theres been some really interesting science work done who believes in conspiracy theories. And what they found is the the most likely correlating characteristic with believing conspiracy theories is believing in the paranormal and the supernatural. So sometimes that can be religion. It can just be like believing in esp or ghosts those people are more likely people who who believed that you think intuitively rather than rationally. Right. They just know they have more of an emotional connection to what they see as truth seeking. And so thats the big determinant, whether there are more americans who are in that category than in other countries. Im sure. But the question of why people in the United States believe in conspiracy theories is just has been asked historians since the 1960s, just over and over again what happened, why is it happening here . And i dont think that has come to a conclusive answer is why the field. Field is so interesting. Oh, yeah and just from my framing of with the the socialism, if you if republicans and democrat can keep people fearful, a strong centralized government, then of course you can prevent. The passage of policies that would people universal health care, welfare and things like that. So thats also part of that agenda. Yeah. Would you like to go back there. Hi, leslie pilon. I teach history at a Community College in the central here in california, so were a little conserved live bubble in the middle of a not so conservative state. Which brings me to my question. Many of you are teachers or educators and with youre discussing conspiracy theories, which is one of those things that leads heavily bias. Right. And having your own bias, its very difficult not to. And theres kind of a debate in my department and across like as history, how do we deal and address our own bias in classrooms . Do we acknowledge it . Do we come out and say, listen, this is where im at, im going to try and you both sides and be honest or do we we dont have them. Do each of you take that you want to. I, i am just there to so im probably the least qualified talk on this. But i will say that do think that when teaching things just grounding in sources, grounding in source material is a really easy way to just teach students to sort of come to their own conclusions rather than direct saying this is where im coming from, this is my bias. But just providing sources maybe from two different sides, different points of views and asking the students to do that source analysis, that primary analysis themselves is really helpful and i mean, i know there are even teachers doing this in a k through level. Media literacy is a huge that leads to people believing in conspiracy theories, not having Media Literacy is a huge reason that people become targeted through ads online facebook. They dont realize that those are targeted ads all the time or that these groups are targeted toward them sites have like, you know, breitbart, for example, people might think thats a real source. It says news in the title, why should i not believe that . Thats true . And so i know that some kthrough12 educators are even starting to teach Media Literacy and just like very very basic, like, well, how can we tell that the source is not accurate . How can we tell that this might be false . And so thats at least one way is just grounding like said in source material, you know, i definitely agree with what nina just said about evidence. I know theres a big debate about pedagogically im of the opinion that that you dont share your biases in class because that makes getting, you know, getting to the to the instructional process of helping students reach truth on their own can kind of inhibit that if they want to have a Conversation Office hours about opinions based on that evidence thats a different story. But one of the things in my Research Methods class that i always tell the students is stipulate that anyone myself thats making an argument to you is worst human being you can imagine has the most opinions and affiliations, is the argument that theyre making supported or not supported by the evidence . Separate, separate that the analytical process and again, just stipulate from the very beginning that that you disagree with them personally. Right. Does the evidence they present still support the argument thats basically i ask my students to do and on these topics. Yeah, im just going to keep um, i think there are key phrases we can pass along. I think its very important for a student to know the difference between causation correlation. I have this illustration of correlation. It correlates deaths by drowning with nicolas cage movies. Its beautiful and it tells you about the pitfalls of both, i suppose, but. But what is causation and then for my criminal justice majors we talk about corroboration i mean to use than one source to molly you know to ask your sources as best you can to find a common but were back to that idea of 100 certainty which is never going to happen think thats really important to know as well. Treat your audience like a jury and i agree with sean and nina. They will take their cues from us. So we have to be as best as possible, be as neutral as possible, and our beliefs do leak out. But we have to be very vigilant. And so ill leave it at that and im just going to jump in and say you might learn something from your students, too, in a while if you approach it that way. Its a credible. All right. Another question. I forgot that you at all. Hello. Firstly, thank you so much. That was an awesome. And i was just you know, i think with the last question, sort of a follow up, theres and i suppose sorry, i should have phrase this better in my head before coming up here. One of your in your presentation specifically there is a little quote that came up. That was referencing the fluoride. And i immediately thought of the alex jones quote where like out of context, its really and ridiculous because hes like, oh, fluoride is turning the frog is gay. Its ridiculous. And i remember it being a meme for so long and everybody laughing it and then you start to actually look at the comments you realize, oh, people oh like people outside of my friend group think thats a legitimate thing and no matter many sources you pull up its you know when you get an argument with someone like that or with the queen of england being a lizard theres only so many sources you can pull up before they are not referencing. And i was just curious as what you what you think of or how you would approach, you know, the idea of, you know, kind of just outright denial of sources themselves. And how do you have a conversation or a discussion or a productive, you know, reasoning with with people who like, you know, think, think that stuff. Hopefully thats a okay question. Its a great question. And like, oh, boy, think and this is kind of goes against our training. Um, sometimes you cant win. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes youre, sometimes, i mean, i learned this after two years of teaching because, you know, grad school, you go to workshops, you win arguments. I mean, thats how youre trained for your defense. When you teach, youre there to teach and you have to sometimes understand that theres a point where you agree to disagree or that really what were talking about here is faith, right . And were not talking about a rational process anymore. And thats where it moves out of your realm. So i leave it. As you know, sometimes we have to just agree to disagree, but thats thats a normal outcome in a lot of cases. So i dont have a hard and fast answer the rest, but thats at least how i look at it. Go. Yeah, actually a parks and rec episode all about like fluoride and theyre to get people to to adopt fluoride in the water so they call like jazz juice or something to make it sound less scary and chemical which is just funny because again its taking a joke out of something that people still believe and have issues, but just speaking also just about your your broader point, um, i do think that that question has been raised a lot. How do we stop people who or how do we, you know, with elder, especially our elderly people are who are especially susceptible to fox news. It seems like to falling down that pipeline. How we sort of intervene with our grandparents or, parents who are becoming really washed suddenly watching fox news all time and ive heard various interviews with people talking about this. This is a common theme on podcasts and journalists alike and seems to be that you just kind of have to catch them before theyre too far gone down pipeline, which is really hard. You have to because i listen to an interview with somebody who said, know this happened to their father and they were becoming and they print it out like a binder and sat down with this binder with their like going through explaining these are exactly why these sources are incorrect and it was that it was just moot point at that point. And i think a lot of people are just saying you just have to catch it at the ground level, which is really difficult. And again, just accept that you cant win all those battles. So i was just to say two quick things to, follow up on that. I think theres a direct connection to the question, which is, yes, some people not quote unquote reachable, but if you approach as a teacher as a as opposed to an indoctrinated, youre much more likely to, you know, access some open mindedness on peoples parts. One of the small point of pride for me is often my evaluations, my teaching evaluations. They say, this is the one professor i have that doesnt rant about the entire class or. You know, i didnt know what this persons, you know, actual feelings about these topics was. Thats the first thing. And i think the other thing is been a lot of mention of fox news. Right. Its important. I think were talking were talking analytically and critically about conspiracy theories with our students. For example, in the current context, lets recognize that a place like msnbc or cnn is perhaps not quantity tively as bad in terms of the conspiracy theories that that it pervades but its very much a mirror image and again perhaps less intense less virulent but its part of the same dynamic the same structure. Yeah. And let me just address that question to what i found is i have my students write the history of a Conspiracy Theory and. I have to like hammer it into heads that theyre not telling me if its true or not. Right. Its why do people believe it . And how did those beliefs change over time . Because to me, thats a historically interesting. Also, i tend not to believe any of the conspiracy theories. Im just a natural skeptic. And so and so i started out telling people like, no, thats not true. That approach doesnt work. And the psychology studies are very because they show that, just as nina said, once you get to a certain point, cannot persuade people. Theres no way of changing mind. But if you can catch somebody before they reach that point. Then you have to be extremely empathetic and not say no. Thats not true, but instead what your source on that. Yeah. Do you have a question question. Thank you for panel. My name is michael allen, a professor at northwestern. My question concerns trust and the relationship between trust and mobility and. The way that these things factor into conspiracy theorizing and conspiracy, skepticism, Critical Thinking are one way to, i think, debunk conspiracies. But also, i think trust is another way that people will decide whether or not to believe a conspiracy. And i mean, like, do i trust this institution, this group of people, this you collection of individuals, Political Party or do i not . And one of the things that seems to be at the heart of maybe american conspiracy belief from my Vantage Point is the hypermobility and sort of churn of american through through space. This is something that dates back all the way to the founding. But certainly its become, i think, and more a feature of American Life in recent decades, even during covid, its become more intensified as people move from place to in search of you know Different School system names or better climate, whatever. And then thats of course been by the decline of large institutional mass production sort of business entities, the rise of media, where people spend a lot of time by themselves, sometimes conversation with people, but usually people they havent met and i just wonder if that kind of social isolation hypermobility and kind of atomization has contributed to, in your view, the growth of both the persistence of conspiracy in American History, but also the growth it and intensification of it in recent decades. And i thought about, particularly in ninas case, where youre talking about these communes and sort of people and deliberately isolating from the rest of society home schooling is another example of that. And that sometimes, you know, just sort of further the belief that everyone else out there is against. But it seems to me its kind of true of all of us that weve all sort withdrawn in various ways from communities. And so we dont trust each other and we dont trust in the institutions that govern us or that we interface with. And i just wondered if you had thoughts on that. It sounds like you. Yeah. Just because i know were short on time, but i do that in some ways that the isolation has directly at, least with this pipeline that im talking about, really, really contributed to a greater increase in people believing in conspiracy because theyre getting them through a lot of times Online Sources and a huge group that has been particularly targeted is like mom groups on facebook, especially for antivaccination conspiracy. A lot of times these moms are feeling very isolated because their new moms, for the first time, theyre stuck at home with their newborns. They dont have a lot of community. And theyre going onto these facebook groups, get advice from other new moms and enough. A lot of times these facebook groups being inundated with this antivax, antivax articles, antivax rhetoric, especially this like natural for your children and and i mean, mom groups have historically been like that. Theres always been a right way to be a mom and a wrong way to be a mom. And all of that. But especially in this age of like post pandemic antivaccination being really, really big topic, thats become an even greater thing. But i also do think just in general with isolation the isolate option leads to sort of like a cultish ideology. It creates a very like cultish environment, even if its not specifically a cult, but living off of the grid in a separated community surround yourselves entirely in a very isolated group of people that have these like minded ideas. Yeah. Leads to the same type of phenomenon that wed, you know, in jonestown, even of just being susceptible. Its becomes harder, harder to find a way out of this situation again. And if you become sort, i mean, not really, really brainwashed because. Theyve done studies and these people are, you know, actually brainwashed, others would claim. But but becoming its becomes harder and harder to separate from what is real and what is false when youre being told this by trusted people in your isolated circle. All right. I would say, professor allen, that you have done a lot of work to answer these questions yourself. I really admire your work, so im glad you came to the panel. I would also that David Bennett in party of fear as well as hofstetter has written a lot about anxiety, mobility and how this contributes to perhaps to conspiracism. But im sorry i do see that it is 5 00, so im going to have to an end to the panel. But thank you all very