Transcripts For CSPAN3 CFPB 20240705

Okay. We are back. Next, we are going to go to the gentleman from tennessee, mr. Rose, for five minutes. Thank you to director chopra for being here today. Director chopra, last month, the New York Times ran an article with the headline calling you, quote, wall streets most hated regulator. And that bankers believe that you are a regulator gone rogue. Do you agree with the characterization that you are wall streets most hated regulator and a regulator gone rogue . Certainly not, but you know, you will have to ask them. We try to make sure that all of our work is with the Public Interest in mind, including with Financial Institutions. I want to say this to you. I feel this strongly about all of our federal regulators. In my view, your first responsibility is to help those who you regulate comply with the regulations. That your entire approach to that regulated community that you deal with should be to empower, enable, inform, educate, facilitate their compliance with the regulations that are intended to protect the consumers of this country. Do you agree with that observation . Yes. And in fact, we spent much more of our energy on supervision. Most of the issues are not dealt with in litigation or enforcement action. In many cases, they are, one serious or repeat offenses happen. We look at issues and how it can be fixed. I worry then, a little bit, i know earlier, in your remarks, you highlighted the amount of fines that you have recovered from that regulated community. I would caution you that i dont think that is the objective. I dont think that is what we ought to be measuring your success by. I think, actually, compliance with a regulated community that understands what they are supposed to be doing, to protect consumers, that is the goal. That is what i would like to hear. Measures that affirm the agencies understanding. And just to comment on that, you know, we have really focused on repeat offenders and others. We are not trying to target with gotcha actions. I saw that at the federal trade commission, or that agency had a history of targeting Small Businesses, strongarming them into settlements. We are taking a different approach. Well, thank you. Director chopra has already come up today. Im sure you are aware of the fdic Inspector General starting an investigation into the extremely serious place misconduct allegations first raised by the wall street journal. As a board member of the fdic, will you commit to fully cooperating with any request made by the fdic Inspector General regarding their investigation . Of course. And of course, i would cooperate with all sorts of inquiries on this. Will you commit to fully cooperating with congressional investigations at the fdic including promptly turning over any requested information and document . As always, we will work with you to accommodate your requests. We have the cfpb. Im a board member. We will do our best to accommodate that. Thank you. And director chopra, have you ever been investigated for workplace misconduct . I have never been the target of an investigation, but theres a lot of other investigations where we cooperate, but ive never been a target. Do you believe that consumers should have the Financial Freedom to make their own financial choices as long as loan terms are clearly disclosed . Yeah. I think thats right. I think we want consumers to have lots of choice and to be able to compare one with the other. I think in the digital economy, there are new issues about how they can present certain information, socalled dark patterns. We want consumers to have that informed choice. Thank you. As our time once down here, would you help to explain how you and the bureau are ensuring that the cost of regulation and other cfpb actions do not outweigh any potential benefit , especially since those costs, of course, will likely be passed on ultimately to the consumer. We never want to do something that makes the public worse off. I think your colleague asked me a question about when there are benefits, Congress Passed the debt bondage repair act, which the cfpb implemented. That is about a Human Trafficking survivor getting their life back. It is hard to put a dollar figure on it, but we do our best in the required analyses for those rules. Thank you. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We go not to the gentleman from carolina, mr. Nichols, for five minutes. Thank you very much for your work on these issues. It is great to see you, director chopra. My colleague from tennessee said that you are the most hated regulator on wall street. I was on wall street yesterday. I think definitely, you are not the most hated. I can feel pretty confident about that. I dont know if that is much of a consolation prize, but it is not a popularity contest, but yes. 25 of these. I know when you get down to the final row of democrats, it has been a while. Thank you for your testimony and being here. I want to thank you for the work you and your colleagues at the bureau do daily to protect consumers, democrat, republican. All of our constituents rely on the cfpb to protect them from harm. Most americans want the bureau to continue doing their job. That is a good record of success. Earlier, i heard from some of my republican colleagues. I was glad to hear their words of encouragement for banking. I want to talk about open banking. I am glad that cfpb proposed the personal Financial Data rates rule last month to accelerate the shift towards open banking. Open banking would give consumers the right to control their Financial Data, which is long overdue. For example, what if my constituents has a Checking Account in a bank, but is receiving bad service, high fees, and under the current system, they would have to jump through a significant amount of hoops to break up with that bank and move their data to another Fragile Services company. They would likely lose some of their data along the way. They would spend countless hours trying to piece it together as they do. Open banking will change this and make it easier for consumers, drive down costs, and promote financial inclusion. Can you share thoughts on how open banking is transforming the landscape for consumers in the u. S. . Yeah. I think the more we can give people the ability to not solely be judged by a three digit score, but also, their financial history, being able to get that data and get a better term, to avoid illegal conduct, to really have more of a drivers seat i think this is a way to make banking a way that puts consumers a wider range of options for them. I think smaller entities will be able to compete more easily with the big players this way, rather than being locked in with one provider, local institutions and startups will have more of a chance to win on their merits. Under this proposed rule, the cfpb would work on a separate organization to establish the technical standards and certifications for consumer permission sharing. Given that this organization is a separate entity from the cfpb and not subject to its oversight, how would you ensure that all parties have a seat at eight the table and this doesnt result in anticompetitive behavior also meeting its standardsetting obligations in a timely manner. It is a huge concern that there are not a small set of actors that dictate in a anticompetitive way. The cfpb would have to recognize the standardsetting body , and pursuant to long standing guidance, that body would need to be inclusive of all perspectives. They can just be the incumbents. It really has to have everybody. We are collecting comment on that now. That is going to be a big piece to determine how open banking accelerates. Thank you so much. I wanted to touch on credit repair scams. I have been working on legislation to finally stop credit repair scams. I know we talked about this in my office. I appreciate your work and leadership here. These Companies Market themselves to distressed consumers, promising to decrease fees and Monthly Subscription services that can cost thousands of dollars and yield few positive results. One bureau took action against one of the largest credit repair organizations this year. Are you concerned that these scams will continue, especially as Household Debt increases . Yes. Im also worried about how they might be targeted using Sensitive Information about people. Particularly on social media, but not exclusively. We are trying to look at how people can actually navigate ways to address their debt issues without ending up worse off in the process. Thanks so much. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We now go to the gentleman from wisconsin, mr. Stout, for five minutes. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Thank you for being here, director chopra. I think we are discussing really important topics. Let me go back to your opening statement, if i can, for just a minute. In your opening statement, you noted that Credit Card Debt is increasing, north of 1 trillion. Mortgages have increased dramatically. The median mortgage over the course of three years went from 102,000 to 200,000 dollars. That is significant. It is a major concern. The driver of that should be noted is largely the inflationary policies put in place by the Biden Administration, in particular, reckless spending, were on energy, including paying people not to work after the pandemic. As we look at this, i would encourage my colleagues on the left side of the aisle to join us to work to bring down inflation. That is outside your house, but i wanted to put that out there because i think it is an important point to your points in your opening remarks. This gives individuals access to which is that they have earned, improving the connection between pay and work in a more timely manner. I think a great opportunity that is out there you commented to the press that cfpb is reexamining the 2020 guidance that maintained that awa was not a credit product. Can you give me an update as to when you expect the review to be completed . Im hoping we can answer more of the questions that we have been getting in the next few months. Specifically, you expect in the next few months that that rulemaking process will be concluded . We will try to provide more guidance. The original guardians covered a pretty narrow set of circumstances. Earned wage advance, earned wage access. Some of it is with the employer. There is a significant development. Youre expecting it in the next few months. As you are going through that process, i would like you to make sure that we are not reducing consumer excess in that space. Let me follow up on my colleagues earlier comment as it related to nonsufficient funds and your review of that. I would echo his comment that i think it is important that these rules are enforced prospectively and not retroactively in light of the previous guidance from cfpb. I can jump one more topic here. It relates to digital apps and wallets. To dive into that, you noted in your remarks that consumer complaints has one justification of the proposed rule. If you can give color to how the complaints rose and over what period of time . I cant recall. As part of that rule we are supposed to look at risk using a multi factor analysis. I understand. If you could get back to me on the complaints, you know, is there a portal that someone would issue a complaint . How would they receive those complains from individuals . Yes. We receive them through our website, through phone, and through others. We received thousands each week. Are they looking at how many points are resolved or no . Well, certainly, we look at all of those factors, but with respect to the proposed rule, that is one issue. There are many other reasons for the rationale for that proposal. It focuses on the Consumer Payment acts. I understand. It is noted that one of the justifications for this is a rise in consumer complaints. If there are consumer complaints, i would like to know. I think that is a valid thing that we should be thinking about on the committee. I am looking for some clarity and color as to what the rise in consumer complaints is. I understand you dont have that off the top of your head. Thats fine. If you can come back to me on the written record as to what that is in a numerical analysis. We will answer questions for the record and provide numbers. Perfect. Let me do one final piece here. Last year when you testified in front of the committee, i asked you if your speeches and blog posts were reviewed by attorneys. You responded that it is sometimes the case. You are open to the feedback we had because i think your words have serious implications for consumers and markets. I remain concerned that some statements that you have made are more in light of shaming businesses into doing what the agency wants rather than going through a traditional rulemaking process. I would just continue to encourage you to engage, leave a review of your post on blogs and other locations, because i believe that they have market moving influence. Im concerned that that is outside of the functional rulemaking process. I appreciate you being here, mr. Chairman. I yield back. He yields back. We recognize the gentleman from texas. Thank you for being with us today. Lets talk about medical debt. The state of texas has the highest rate of uninsured working age adults in the country. In part due to the State Government and the governor that refuses to comply with federal law, expand medicaid. Most of my constituents see they dont have the upfront capital to pay for healthcare costs. The dingo on their Credit Report for medical debt which is not an accurate measure of credit risk also means it is harder for them to access traditional sources for credit like bank loans and credit cards. I was excited to learn of the proposal announced in september of this year by the cfpb that would address this issue head on. If this goes into effect, can you outline the steps for cfpb, the steps they would take to ensure that their credit worthy consumers are not prevented from attaining credits or even a job simply because of debts they owe or the debt they owe for my loved one who has gotten sick. Ask for the question. I think, really, our load star on this has been the real challenges of accuracy. And i mentioned it to your colleagues. It is not like a normal loan. It is often a bill that is put on your Credit Report. You mentioned uninsured. A lot of the issues are people with insurance. There is provider, facility, insurance company, patient, debt collector, reporting agency. Over many years, theres been consensus that there is limited Predictive Value of this. Given the inaccuracies, you worry a lot that people, when they are applying for a job or credit or paying something that they dont oh, so the big Credit Reporting conglomerates, they have taken some steps, but we are looking at whether we might propose a rule to address it more correctly. We are currently collecting feedback from small entity representatives on that. That will inform any proposed rule. I cant agree with you more. Thank you for these steps you are taking. Also, as you know, in 2012, the cfpb implement it its ribbons rule, requiring companies that offer remittances to provide disclosure regarding the price of a transfer before consumers make a payment. It created productions for millions of immigrants, but servicemembers, students, and others that send money to other countries, providers have found ways to get around it. According to in summer and immigration groups, he was consumers lose approximately a. 7 billion a year due to hidden fees. They sometimes change it on their Exchange Rates and recovered with the other countries. In june of 2023, you testified before this committee and recognized this issue, like my colleague mr. Vargas as stated in the past. He calls them junk fees, which i agree. They have impacted our constituents who sent remittances to the family abroad. The money earned by these hard working people should not be lost to hidden fees or extra fees that go to their families. I ask, what is cfpb doing to protect consumers and ensure hidden fees are not being folded into Exchange Market rates . Is there a plan in ways to prevent remittance providers from continuing this process . Yes. We have taken a number of actions. Providers that have egregiously violated the law on this front but i think there is this question of, how will the consumer be able to get a competitively priced remittance . They are paying for it. When youre looking at multiple levers the Exchange Rate sometimes, there is an advertisement, where it says free. But its not really free. That is what we are focused on making sure we are seeing if that is working or not. You know, theres a lot of other places where people may have options of sending remittances that they may not be aware of. We are looking at all of that. Certainly, things have improved since the 90s, but the concern is, whoever their partners are in other countries i note for mexico, for sure, they get shortchanged on the Exchange Rate. I think that is happening around the world. Thank you for the work you are doing. We hope that you can continue looking into this issue that impacts millions of people here and around the world. I appreciate you. I yield back. His book the gentleman yields back. The gentleman from south carolina, mr. Timmons, is now recognized. Thank you, chairman. The fc ra has set guidelines. These guidelines enable our credit economy to function. Thus, changes to this foundation should not be made lightly, nor should they be rushed. Accordingly, have concerns with the fcras proposal for specific data breaches. Numerous federal and state laws already edit Data Security measures and breach notifications to the consumers. They are introducing a liability standard inserting data from third parties. Before i move on, the cfpb had a data breach impacting millions of americans. Would it be appropriate for cfpbs own data breach . Well, just to be clear, we have not proposed a rule. We have been looking at multiple options on data brokers as well as how there may be access to data. Of course, the situation at the cfpb was very serious. We did the consumer notification. Even then, we aired on the side of making sure it was clear. We talked to our entities. It was automatic triggers. How will they be made whole . How will the victims be made whole . The cfpb has hundreds of millions of dollars. Will there be any restitution . It is really based on the type of data that could be used for any type of identity theft. Like filing unemployment claims fraudulently . It didnt include the type of information that could lead to that. I take your point. It was very serious. We are taking steps to address it. With respect to that outline, you know, we are really trying to make sure we are guarding privacy. And i agree with you that actually, the Credit Reporting system is foundational. Let me ask this. Do you know of any other example of data breaches that are enforced with strict liability standard . I do believe that some state laws do have that, but i would need to look it up and answer the caution for the record. Okay. That would be great. Im just concerned what impact this standard would have on economic activity. Almost every corner of the Financial Service industry with tell you that their Cybersecurity Team spends more time on compliance than keeping data safe. I think the last thing we need is redundant recognition taking time away from these entities from providing actual cybersecurity. We dont want to do anything redundant. Thats for sure. Thank you for that. Director chopra, it has been reported that the cfpb is writing a proposal focused on Bank Overdraft fees, and doing so conveniently after your appearance on capitol hill this week. Is this report accurate . What are you proposing in that role . We did put on our regulatory agenda many months ago that we would be looking at overdraft and the nsf. We have not made any changes on it. One of the places we got input on is that people wanted some clarity on what the rules would be. There has been guidance documents. There are a number of places. We are trying to sift through all of that. We will ideally propose something and make sure that there is not overdraft abuses. I guess overdraft is a Service Provided by Financial Institutions for consumers to manage their finances. Im curious, given your previous Statement Today about trying to foster petition, what you think it is a good idea for government to set the price for a clearly disclosed service offered to customers in the private sector . So it is not about setting a price. I think there have been certain places where prices are a safe harbor to avoid some of the cost of compliance, but what we are looking for is there to be a competitive market. When people are borrowing, we want them to have lots of choices and to be able to get it in a way that is a function of the market. Thats just the free market. If they want to go to Different Service providers to get a better rate, they should. Im just worried that such a rule will really result in denying overdraft protection for millions of americans. These are the americans who need it most. If we start impacting the free market, i just fear that they are not going to have access to overdraft protection. The people that need it most, their transactions will be declined. I appreciate the intent, but the outcome will be detrimental to those that youre seeking to protect. As you consider this issue, just appreciate that the banks are not going to offer overdraft protection if they are not able to charge a fee for it. With that mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. The german yields back. We now go to the gentleman from new jersey. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I know you dont have direct oversight over pulling. You do have oversight over Financial Institutions, with regard to revenue from fees charged to consumers. It is based on animus fees, including a 23 per day congestion tax. It will be paid for by hard working families in new jersey. You are a new jersey guy. You know about these issues im talking about. We are talking about charging nurses, cops, firefighters, laborers, restaurant workers, and other hardworking families, 23 a day to drive in your city. Are you able are you concerned at all that these banks will be making money off of gouging middleclass americans with this new tax . Will you commit to this getting the revenue that Financial Institutions are making from this tax . I actually have not heard this. Im from outside philadelphia. My uncle worked for the new york mta for a long time. I will look into this and get back to. I would appreciate it. I will followup with you. Im working with representative cartwright on legislation that would require the 6 Interest Rate cap for loans made to active Duty Service Members to apply to all applicable accounts held by the Service Member at a particular Financial Institution. This is an issue ive been following closely. There was a report that found that Many Credit Card Companies are not checking military status. To ensure that they receive the benefits they havent in return for their sacrifices and services to our nation, needs to be done to make sure that more Credit Card Companies are proactively checking . This is a very good point, by the way. With higher Interest Rates, you actually have a lot more people including on their mortgage where the protection is going to kick in. We released some analysis about the low levels of pickup for National Guard and reserves who were activated. You know, our Service Member of her office, and i put out recommendations of what institutions can do to make sure that they are covering everyone you know, it is voluntary. Questions about whet should be required to simply make it go through the process rather than having the servicemember deal with every single notice. Im putting on that, right. And there is a database. So we can get back to you with some further detail on that, but its a good, worthwhile idea. That would be great. And director, this committee, as you might know, was recently discussed earned wages access. Products which offer individuals to draw money from their paychecks before payday. Several states, such as maryland and connecticut, have classified dwa products with credit products. Other states like nevada and missouri do not recognize ewa providers as lenders. Director, does the ewa products a form of credit, and if so, does the bureau plant treatise level on a level Playing Field with other products . Ya. So, you know, earned wage, ewa is often a branding term. It can be an earned wage cash advance. Its a cash advance. Sometimes its through the employer. Sometimes its not. You know, the cfpb a few years ago did issue some guidance that was pretty narrow. It essentially involved free, free earned wage advance. So we know the market has developed a lot. Of course, you know, federal law still applies no matter, you know, theres federal and state law. We live with federalism. We are looking, as i mentioned to your colleague, to updating the guidance, given all the evolution in the market place. Its critics will reclassify and govern these products appropriately. I like to shift gears quickly to open banking, one of your most prominent Consumer Protection does protecting consumers from fraud, edgy degree, and as you know, fraudster practices are evolving constantly. The agency needs to be able to continue to innovate more effective in curdling backers. Will hinder critical industry efforts to fight fraud by prohibiting the use of consumer data to develop or improve products. Can you please clarify how the proposal permits the development and improvement of antifraud tools . Well, you know, i think what youre referring to is theres limitations on secondary uses. Of the data. In other words, thats really to prevent fraud. We dont want someone bating a consumer to hand over their data and say, im going to give you an auto loan, when, in reality, theyre using it for all sorts of other purposes. So really, the, the goal is to protect the consumer, to reduce bad actors. I think there is some questions in the notice of proposed rulemaking about how data can be used. Were collecting comment on that. But, of course, you know, we do want to make sure that fraud is reduced. Foster and raise the issue of Identity Verification. Theres really a lot to work on on this front. Thank you. I yelled back. Gentleman yields back. Now recognize the gentleman from south carolina, mr. Norman, for five minutes. Im going to move through a couple, and any we cant get through, we will write a letter. If you could just get it to us. One, one question has come up. It has been the funding of cfpb for the court. You mentioned that yall have undertaken a, a very extensive review of expansions, trying to cut the, the cost, i guess, of cfpb. Has that been successful . Just to make sure its clear, were always looking at ways to sunset old contracts that are no longer in use, you know, reduce waste. We try our best to constantly be doing that, and find more ways to get value out of every dollar with our procurement. So i have seen places where we, we are making inroads on it at the same time. You know, we have to execute our mission, and that requires expenditure. You know, when you look at the, at the history is, i think you, what cfpb is done, they can issue a onepage letter to the Federal Reserve, and fund up to 12 of the Federal Reserve expenses. In 2021, it was 17 million for fiscal year 21, and then in 2022, it was 734 million. As 23 has seen an increase from the 734 million . Yeah, i believe so. And, in fact, we have to consider a number of factors, and, of course, a big driver is wages and compensation. Thats our biggest piece. But is it fair to say its gone up . Oh yeah, it has gone up. The projections are based on, you know, i dont think theyre out of line with, you know, other banking regulators. I think, in some cases, its lower. I think it was brought up about, you know, we voted on doing away with the cfpb. I was the one who voted to do away with it because of funding. We really, congress, you ought to have some type of oversight. In any government legislator the to submit a onepage letter and get it funded, i think, is unfair to the taxpayer. Change of topics, the fair Credit Reporting act, i think, the cfpb is removed or in favor of removing all medical debt from the Credit Report. Is that right . No. We havent proposed it yet, but were collecting feedback from small entity representatives on that. And i think, again, its interesting, because theres not like another loan and then inaccuracies and dispute rates on the are extremely high compared to other products. And we also see that, you know, fight go, others but you wouldnt be in favor of taking it off the we havent proposed it yet, but that is one serious consideration that were collecting. Whats your opinion on it . Real brief. Well, i think, actually, based on the data over the past 10 years, i do think that the Harms Associated with inaccurate medical debt reporting cause a nightmare for people. So you would take it off. Well, i kind of want to see how it all works. The difference is, is, you know, medical debt, i think theres a, we think of it separately from, like, the medical bills that you dont apply for in advance of the post to the medical loans. You got a Small Business review panel. Have you, who have you dealt with . I guess, who have you gotten opinions of . Has it been from medical providers . Have you interviewed them . Yeah, so we have, in terms of the panel, well need to get you more information on whos on it, but ive personally talked to a number of medical professionals, including medical debt collectors, who are inside the hospitals, inside youve met with them to get their opinion of this. Yeah. If you could just respond well, we can even share with you some conferences where weve given presentations. Whats interesting is, many of the hospitals actually dont send it to Credit Reporting. So it, its, theres a lot of heterogeneity in the, in the practices. Im out of time. Okay, sorry. If you get anything, information to us. Now, regulation f, where consumers can consent to receive accounts receivables via text, you have Certain Companies that are not, that are blacklisting, that are not sending texts to, even though the consumer wants them to. Like an operation chokepoint. Is this, do you think this is right . Wait, say that again . If a consumer asks for accounts receivables to be received, the information on it by text, some Companies Just are not doing that. Well, let us know about it. I, i will say, the regulation doesnt require the debt collectors provide information by text. It just allows them, if thats a choice, but were happy to followup. Thank you so much. Gentlemans time has expired. We now go to the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. Lynch. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Welcome, director chopra. Good to see you again. Thank you for all your good work. I wanted to ask you about the proposed rulemaking that was announced in november. So weve got a bunch of these larger fin tech firms that are using digital wallets, and, in a way, theyre sort of blurring the line between regular commerce and banking. And so i, i know that the original announcement was that you were going to look at some of these larger firms and require them, because they are in a good part of the banking business, require them to report as we, as we require, you know, small banks and Credit Unions. I wanted to just get some of your thinking behind that, and, and how big does a, how big does a fin tech firm need to be before they would come under this reporting, which i, which i think is appropriate for some of these larger and busier firms. Its interesting. You have a lot of nonbanks, particularly with apps that are transmitting i think its now trillions of dollars globally. In many ways, they look a lot like what we see emerging in china, where large tech firms have a lot of ability to collect data, move payments. So weve proposed bringing some of those firms and subjecting them to supervision. We already have Enforcement Authority over them. We think supervision actually makes sure theres a level Playing Field between the banks that are doing it and the nonbanks. Theres a number of issues. Fraud, you know, privacy. I think theres going to be a lot of value in that. Were collecting comment on the specific threshold, but we estimate its about, you know, one or two dozen that could, could come under. So you just had a case, i was reading that one of your enforcement cases recently was e nova, was it . Yes. They actually went in and took out of the customers accounts. So, you know, obviously, weve got that. Yeah, you know, can i just care, congressman . We have a lot of situations where people are able to get information about a customer, and then they can just grab the money. There is lots of issues that, that that, that impacts. So making sure that our payment system, you know, has a lot of fidelity, this is so important to the lowest income people in our country, because of a wrongful debit in their account can send them into a tailspin. Right, and this is, you know, Credit Rating issues there. Based on, on much of that difficulty. What about i know one of my colleagues raised an issue earlier today about i think it was citibank, and there was a discrimination issue there, with armenian, armenian sounding names, i guess. Well, it was actually names, particularly, that ended in y a and and diane. I got a big armenian population my districts. And, you know, those are obviously going to impact your median community. And where does that come from, though . Do you have any sense of well, as weve investigated the enforcement action, they had determined that they actually filed false reports to those borrowers as to why they were declined. And they ostensibly said it was to detect, you know, prevent fraud. But, you know, we allege, and i think, provided very strong evidence that that was prohibited National Origin discrimination. We have laws on the books that dont allow it to say, you know, you type of people. These armenian americans, though, arent they . Yes. Yeah. So in this country. I was just curious what the motivation might of been there, if anything during your investigation we can share more, but they had detected, they were excluding people from the glendale, california area, which is a very high concentration of armenian americans, as well as people with that last name suffix. Okay. Well, maybe we can talk off line about that. I do appreciate your good work, however, and how readily available youve been to members of this committee. I think its, its commendable, the way youve handled your responsibilities. Thank you, and i yield back. We now go to the gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. Muse or, for five minutes. Thank you, chairman. Thank you, director. Good seeing you. And i too believe that your work is focused on improving situations. But i have a, i cant help but have a number of questions, and maybe you can help clear some things up for me. Your mission that cfpb, part of it, anyway, is to aim to make Consumer Financial markets work for consumers, responsible providers, so both, and the economy as a whole. To protect consumers from unfair, disruptive, or abusive action, and take action against companies who break the law. However, there are many in the banking and Business Community that think that the cfpb is, is guilty of practices that are unfair and perhaps abusive. And that this tremendous overreach, and, that very often, rather than the bright line concept, his ideology over specific rules. And this isnt just from one, you know, set of, you know, resources. I mean, its large banks, small banks, superlarge banks, super regionals, one billiondollar banks. 10 billion banks. I put out a text a little while ago to a few, hey, give me some of your thoughts on cfpb. My phones blowing up with, with negative, negative comments. Like, for instance, the 1071. It will impose significant costs on banks, costs that will be felt most acutely by Small Community banks. It will negatively affect their Small Business customers. From another group, this was from a group. The proposed rule scope is unnecessarily farreaching. It would exempt very few Community Banks to find Small Businesses so broadly. This includes tens of thousands of large businesses, and require institutions to collect and report numerous data points in addition to the congressionally required data points. Next one. The cfpb 1071 role would create onerous reporting requirements for both Small Business owners and the Financial Institutions. Heres one as well. The Biggest Issue with the cfpb, and i know this person personally, small bank, billion dollars, probably. As the regulations restrict banks from residential lending, limiting options for borrowers. Forcing Community Banks to lend to more commercial customers. Okay, so ill leave it to you. What, how is this, is this working . What a great job is being done . Okay, id love to see a great job being done. I want consumers to be protected. I dont want bad characters to be able to play out. And so that should be a good thing. But the, the, the fulfillment of, of all of this needs to have a, a field that, that there is some sort of synergy, or at least improvement in line with what is best for the economy as a whole. So thats a somewhat general question, director, but ill, ill, ill ask you to comment on some of those, those comments i write off. Well, it is true that when regulators are doing their job, we wont always be the most popular when it comes to those who we enforce the laws for. When it comes to detecting where there are potential crimes. I get it. Many of the things you mentioned are things that congress enacted in order but im talking about 90 of the Banking Community here who im referring to. Well, i will tell you, i hear from a lot of Financial Providers who are eager for us to crack down on some of the abuses that we see, because you know what . Theyve got to compete with these people. They got to be the ones competing online, often, with these misrepresentations. So we take all the feedback, i think, with every state banker association. So adding the maybe even more. We want to make sure that the lawabiding businesses are not disadvantaged i understand that, but the feedback that and youve said to me in the last hearing that you would reach out more and have a, more of a comprehensive, you know, relationship, or even, or even get feedback from those who are knocking themselves out. I know youve got to believe in capitalism to an extent. Its a competitive marketplace. Theyre trying to win customers. Theyre not trying to abuse their customers. That would be ridiculous, because they would go out of business. Thats how it works. The 81 total data points, the questions that were added. Last time we spoke, you said its not 81. I forget what you said. Its like 18 or something. No, it is in fact 81. It is not 81. If you are asked a multiple choice question of what state do you live in . That is not 50 questions. You expanded upon the congressionally authorized questions that you were given. Why is Sexual Orientation something that a bank is supposed to ask because in the statute, there are requirements thats not in the statute. The Supreme Court has ruled that discrimination but thats an overreach. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Gentleman yields back. We now go to the gentleman from new york, mr. Torres, for five minutes. Its always a pleasure to see you, director, and i have found it to be as impressively communicative and responsive as any agency had in the federal government, so thank you for your commitment to protecting working people from predatory fees. My first question is about and says. I represent the district in the bronx where families have to pay excessive fees in order to transfer their own money to loved ones abroad, and the high fees and long delays of the existing remittance system imposes a hardship on the lowest income americans, particularly immigrants. And as a nation of immigrants, as you know, the United States is by far the largest source for remittances. 72 billion in 2021 alone. In your view, what can and should be done to create a better, cheaper, and faster remittance system for the most vulnerable among us . Well, theres so much. One, we need to make sure that the existing providers are not engaged in bait and switch, that theyre telling the truth about how much its costing, theyre not hiding things with junk fees. But i think with digitization, we also got to think more broadly. Lots of you have, have constituents who send money abroad. I see how, in big commercial contexts, there are often agreements between large banks, between central banks. We should be thinking about the plumbing of the Financial System so that people can send things cheaply and safely, and i think that requires the attention of us, the Federal Reserve board, and many others. I have a question about block chain and stable quite, in the context of remittances. Block chain can enable real time transactions. Stable coin can digitize the dollar. Do you believe that the combination of block chain and stable coin, if properly regulated, has the potential to play a role in creating a better, cheaper, and faster remittance system . Yeah, weve seen that, actually, some digital apps, and other products, have been able to actually help people send money to a Family Member who is in a very remote area. They may not actually live near a bank or a place that has a remittance provider, and are sometimes able to use that in ways that really kind of bridge so much divide. Now, on the Underlying Technology, obviously its complicated. We want to make sure that it is well regulated, that theres not fraud, that people have a fair sense of what it is, but im totally open to working with all of you as you think through that. You know, much has been said about ai. Ai is the most revolutionary technology of our time. I have found the discourse about ai to be pessimistic to the point of apocalyptic. And so im curious, what do you see not only is the greatest risk, but also the greatest reward of ai when it comes to Consumer Protection in the field of Financial Services . Yeah, so, look, in some ways, ai is not totally new. Its really advanced computational methods. Theres lots of good ways to prevent fraud. There may be ways in which you could detect some sort of error on your, in your finances, help you automatically dispute something. Theres certainly going to be consumer use cases. I think a little bit of where we should be cautious is throwing it out into the world and just kind of seeing what happens. I think we should be thoughtful about, how are the different use cases, generative ai and copying of biometric data, you know, lending and how it would work in algorithms. So lets, we should be precise on it, but i think there are opportunities. Im not apocalyptic, but i want to make sure were being cautious. Is cfpb exploring how to harness the power of ai to enhance enforcement . Yeah, i think, we are always looking at more advanced rules on how we analyze our complaint data, other data to detect and deter wrongdoing, just as other Law Enforcement does. On the subject of crypto regulation, the agencies that typically come to mind are cftc and s. E. C. What is, could, or should be the role of cfpb in the field of crypto regulation . Yeah, so its less about the Underlying Technology and more about the use case. There has not been a huge intersection, but certainly, if you have a stable coin that very rapidly scales on one of these payment apps, like another Consumer Payment, you know, thats certainly a consumer use case there, so thats a, a real place that we are watching it. But most of the other uses that we see in the Financial Markets are indeed outside of Consumer Financial products. And so what are your existing authorities, with respect to stable coin regulations . So the relevant ones that come up a lot the Electronic Fund transfer act, which is kind of fraud, movement of digital money, privacy, provisions. But theres some other ones that get implicated as well. I see my time has expired. Thank you for your service. Im going to recognize myself for five minutes. Id like to insert a letter into the record from the consumer bankers association, commenting on todays hearing. And directed chopra, your recent fair Credit Reporting act proposal on data brokers and consumer data, it doesnt include a fraud exemption when an entity is using data to help verify a customers identity. The treatment of credit, data described in the outline would prohibit Financial Institutions from using it for the essential antifraud purposes, for what its used for today, i guess. As you know, Identity Verification, consideration for creditworthiness are two distinct actions, with their own legal frameworks. Qic laws, and the fc ra. Have you consulted with prudential regulators anfinson to understand how capturing Identity Verification activities under the fc ra may impede compliance with the know your customer requirements if, if, in fact, the data is considered a Consumer Report . Just to be clear, we have not put forth a proposed rule. One of the places that we know there is a huge desire for fraudsters to take control over is really that identity related data. So were trying to think of all the ways in which we can protect it, but not undermine, you know, really, what banks and lenders are legitimately trying to do for Financial Services. So to answer your question, yes, certainly, we have discussions with the treasury, since then, others on a wide range of issues, and i can assure you that your message here, i hear it loud and clear. We dont want to do anything that undermines some of the legitimate Financial Company work. And i think its also goes back to something mr. Foster said about Identity Verification. I really think all of us need to work on, what is the future of Identity Verification . Because it can open up a lot of questions for you, for harms in the country if we dont have it robust. Very good. Let me shift here. A small Pediatrician Office in sheboygan, wisconsin has estimated that the cfpbs proposal to remove medical debt from Credit Reports will lead to a revenue decreased by 11 , or 11,000. I, i worry that further reducing the information that lenders have on borrowers, its just going to result in higher costs and higher rates for all. Is there any way that cfpb has studied this, or, you know, tried to figure out what the impact would be on individual, you know, medical clinics, i guess . I think were thinking about it in two different contexts. The medical provider facilities, and then, separately, the lenders. So you raise two parts, what would be the impact for them, what would be the impact on, you know, the Credit Reporting system. On the second part, theres actually been a move away, because of the limited predicted value of medical bills on Credit Reporting. Weve talked to a number in the, you know, medical industry. Many of them actually dont put it in, in, on Credit Reports, and actually, most small players, i believe, they dont so were really looking at all of that, and again, we have not proposed a rule. Were going through the process of collecting input in advance of proposing. Well then have Public Comment for we pursue it. But i will tell you, i am concerned about widespread inaccuracies in medical debt Credit Reporting. Very good. One more on privacy. Weve heard from many wisconsin bankers, in discussions with their Small Business customers, about the 1071 reporting requirements, which have been discussed many times today. Theyre concerned about the public release of the data. I mean, were talking about, you know, villages of 1000 people. And some counties actually would find themselves, i think, in a similar situation. Would be very easy for somebody to sit down and kind of the out who this, who this is, or which family this is. Considering how important privacy is to the bureau, why wouldnt you first publish a result of the reidentification study, and then take comments as required by apa to balance the risks and the benefits of the disclosure . So were pretty far away from any publication on it, and let me just share with you that compared to mortgage data under the Home Mortgage disclosure act, they, they, the data here is going to be totally different. Like you said, there may only be one type of Small Business type in an area. So we are going to look at that. Ill take that suggestion about how we might proceed with that, but were many years off. Very good. I yield back, and this time, we recognize the gentleman from colorado, ms. Patterson. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and great to see you, director chopra. Its wonderful to have you. You do a very good job being in the hot seat. Well, being last, all my questions have been asked, but one thing i, that ive thought a lot about sitting through this is what it was like to live in poverty, what it was like when i was younger, having multiple jobs while i worked my way through college, putting myself through school, being, you know, just one financial emergency away from being unable to pay for rent and put a roof over my head. And when i think about those Life Experiences that are so important to have one, when youre sitting in the seats, about understanding what people are struggling with everyday, and how important your workers in fighting for regular people who, these junk fees can really have a, an enormous impact, or zombie debt. And so i just want to thank you for the work that you do every day, and your team. And when i think about zombie debt in particular, i was reflecting on when i was younger in high school, and i had, i had something i had to go to the emergency room, i paid for it. Later on, when i was qualifying to buy a house, it showed up again on the Credit Report. Well, no, that i paid for it, but then it was sold off. So zombie debt, where its paid, you know, years later, you have no proof. Oftentimes lose that. And they know that, so they, they sell it off knowing that that is likely. And so many people in my life have dealt with this, and i remember being a young person and feeling like there was no accountability, nowhere to go. And so, i know recently you had, cfpb had a field hearing on this issue, around zombie mortgages, specifically. And wanted to see how you all are thinking about what to do about zombie mortgages, and how theyre targeting seniors, but also if there are gaps that congress should consider in addressing. Yeah. Thank you for that, and let me just share, you know, one of the things thats really great about the work we do is, we actually get to hear directly from thousands of people a day about exactly those situations and how it affects them and really what they need to do to, how they can fix, how we can fix things for them. So on zombie mortgages, there was, and we think this is quite targeted in a few metro areas, but maybe nationwide, second mortgages that were considered satisfied, but that have re emerged, and are targeting people sitting on home equity often seniors. Zombie debt, more broadly, of things that just keep popping up over and over again, and the consumer is often put in a place to prove theyve paid it, even though, you know, it may be long ago. I think theres a lot of ways in which the Credit Report, too, is used to coerce people into paying this debt. Debt parking. So we do use our authority under the fair Debt Collection practices act and fair Credit Reporting act, but i think its worthwhile to think if we need any sort of enhancements to it in order to make sure that this type of, what i see often is fraud. Doesnt recur. Great, thank you for that. And i know that, you know, youre trying to change behavior by doubling down on, on going after junk fees, and i dont know if you want to talk quickly about how you all are identifying junk fees. And then also what youre seeing with behavior changing from businesses and what that means for consumers. Yeah, i think weve seen a number of very large banks who engaged in some hyper aggressive illegal practices. We breached two major enforcement actions. Wells fargo, regions bank. It was pretty bad conduct. We have seen, though, a pretty big shift in the market of moving away from some of these junk fees, and i think weve tried to go in other industries to see, where are they charging something that really is for nothing . I mean, i mentioned earlier to your colleagues, we found a paper statement fee that they didnt print or mail. You know, so we had to make sure that this is just not another way to treat people, and were very proud of that work, and i think its made the difference of billions of dollars. Great. With 20 seconds remaining, anything else you want to add . Well, i just hope, ive known some of you now for many years, and i do hope that theres some things that we all see eye to eye on, protecting data, privacy, junk fees. I think theres a lot we can do to really row in the same direction. So i appreciate all of you who have met with me to really help inform our work. Thank you very much. I yield back its been a gentleman time has expired. We now go to the gentleman from new york. Director, its good to see you. You know, its great, she just asked about drug fees, because one of my colleagues asked about it before as well, and im trying to get an actual answer. Our fees for negative business transactions, late fees, Overdraft Fees that are part of the Contractual Services provided by Financial Institutions, when two customers who sign up for products such as credit cards and Checking Accounts, are those, would you consider those junk fees . Would you consider, someone signed up for a credit card or bank account, a late fee, or an Overdraft Fee . Well, some of it is how its assessed. So we, for example, i mentioned those two enforcement actions. Sometimes they assessed it by mixing around the transactions. Sometimes they didnt even deliver it, so the analysis of the i agree. If they dont deliver. If theres no overdraft and they charge an Overdraft Fee, thats a problem. But if the statement says if youre late with your payment, or if the congress is if youre late with your payment, were charging a late fee, or if you overdraft and its an illegitimate overdraft. I think im in agreement with the spirit of what youre saying. The issue is is that it can override a federal law. So there can be deception around it. Theres other congressional prohibitions, and again, like congressman patterson said, i do want to recognize the industry has made some real moves on this, which i think, you know, our commendable. I get that, but, but late fees and Overdraft Fees arent blatantly junk fees. Well, it depends i agree i take your point. Look. The way we define junk fees are ones that are not subject to the competitive process, really are hidden, or are sometimes for things that are not Even Services are not even provided. Again so we try and focus on where its illegal, fraudulent. But theres other places where you have a lot of honest banks out there competing on the up front price, and then others building a Business Model off of something but i understand that. My point is that the contract says if youre late paying your credit card statement in somebodys a week late, were going to charge you 25. Its pretty straightforward. It also must to comply with federal law. Of course. All right, i want to move to something else. I want to talk about an issue that its related to the fair Credit Reporting act proposal in the data brokers. From what i understand, the cfpb is considering significant changes to the cra, including broadening the scope of what constitutes a Consumer Reporting agency to basically any entity that compiles and makes available Consumer Financial information, whether or not its used for eligibility of decisions. Currently the bureaus authority is limited to regulations that are necessary and appropriate to carry out the objectives of the cra. However, the recent f cras a brief up outlines includes brought a novel definition of data broker, which seems to contradict that the Regulatory Guidance case law in congressional intent. It also creates complex with the ky c requirements. Giving those contradictions, where in the cfpbs limited Rulemaking Authority that have the ability to create the new definition of a data broker . So i dont agree with what you shared there. One of the pieces of input you all have given us is, you know, try and avoid where you can regulation by enforcement. Theres a lot of companies out there that need the definition and activities of a Consumer Reporting agency. Yes, we could go and litigate it, bring enforcement actions. The goal is, in some ways, to provide some clarity about the Business Model of a Consumer Reporting agency, which now you have a lot of different firms that are collecting these dossiers on us. And to create a level Playing Field around it. You mentioned the issue of ky c fraud. As i shared with congressman fitzgerald, we are taking that very seriously and looking at all the uses of it, but i think we need to be careful about data brokers often compiling information about americans and often selling our most Sensitive Data to bad actors overseas, including to defraud people. And i understand that. I just want to make sure so you think, you think you already have the authority, see pfb already has the authority to do all this. We had to make sure that were administering the fair Credit Reporting act, and if you look at even the legislative history so under the you believe you have it under the yeah. We cant propose a rule on anything that we wouldnt but i understand. I think theres a disagreement but im happy to talk about it. All right. I appreciate that. I have another question, but im down to 10 seconds, and i know i will get it out. I will submit it to you. Thank you. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Next we have the gentleman from texas, mr. Greene, for five minutes. You, mr. Chairman. I think the ranking members as well, who is not here at the time, but i also thank ms. Garcia. I thank you for appearing today, sir. It is my belief that if we did not have the cfpb, we would need to create it. And what id like to do is explore some of the rationale for my contention. This staff has done an excellent job at providing intelligence. Theres an indication that the agency has required financial terms that violate the law to pay more than 4. 1 billion in civil penalties. As a former litigator, i understand the difference between a classaction and a small action. What would these persons have to do if not but for the cfpb to collect this amount in penalties . What would they have to do without the cfpb . Yeah, i mean, we have obtained, i believe, about 20 billion in, in forfeitures. There is no way that people wouldve been able to get all of this on their own, and, in some ways, congressman, they may not have even known about the error, or the midst charge. We have been using our complaints, and sometimes can see the trends, that its not just 30 or 40, but its 30 or 40,000, and i think weve had maybe tens of millions of people whove directly benefited from those. And look, we should want a marketplace where people are playing by the rules. And we try and help firms that do. But where they dont, we do have to take action. Well, im proud that you do. Lets explore one additional area. Illegal discrimination. We found that a certain bank, no need to mention a name, discriminated, and was ordered to pay 25. 9 million. This type of litigation, usually, is longterm, meaning it would be three to five years. This is what the consumer would have to suffer. Just the time alone. And then to find a warrior who would do this for an individual, you have to have some deep pockets. Explain, if you would, as tersely as youd like, why its so important that you engage in these illegal discrimination actions. Many times, people wouldnt even know they were the victim of it. In the case you mentioned, those individuals were given fake reasons why they were denied. But in reality, it was because they were armenianamerican. They wouldnt have even known to do it. And so we got to make sure that were detecting it and taking action. Well, i started with the premise that if we didnt have the cfpb, we would need to create it. Sadly, this congress would never do it. Thank god we have it now. Because we couldnt get it if we didnt have it. I yield back the balance of my time. Gentleman yields back. We now go to the gentleman from california, ms. Kim. Thank you, and director chopra, inc. You for being with us today. From the inception, the way cfpb was designed disregarded longstanding checks and balances. Under our constitution, no one agency or person shall have absolute power to do as they please, even the president to congress and to the power of the purse. And the cfpb should not be the exception to longstanding constitutional rules. I think we agree on that. And i do a great with the mission that consumers must be protected from bad actors. The cfpb, in the name of Consumer Protection, is being used to divert the publics attention from the real challenges faced by individuals and families. And the cfpb, under your watch, mr. Chopra, has not addressed the root causes of indebted this of poor Economic Conditions for millions of americans. And in your testimony, you highlight that for the first time ever, Credit Card Debt eclipsed 2 trillion last year cfpb. And you also mention the cost of high Interest Rates for consumers, but unfortunately, you dont mention inflation once in your testimony. You know, you are a member of f sock, and so you shouldve been privy to discussions on how fiscal expansionary measures fueled inflation. So if you recall, everyone in the Biden Administration was stating that inflation is transitory, but, when in fact, we all know that it wasnt. So why did you fail to mention inflation in your testimony . Certainly higher cost of goods, i think i specifically mentioned examples of it. Im happy to look back at it, and the examples of higher vehicle prices. There certainly issues with higher home prices. Of course, prices and the rate environment, we do see both as being drivers, the rate environment, i think, has also, as mentioned by one of your colleagues, dramatically increased the price of new mortgage origination, so they are both certainly something we think about, and decomposing it in Consumer Financial products. Thank you. You know, since consumers have to pay more for goods and services as you pay, would you agree that inflation played a role in increasing indebtedness to americans . Well, so if you look at the amount of household that relative to net worth, you know, you do, we can share with you the trend lines, but i think im, its not our job to really look at, you know, what exactly is happening with respect to each individual good , but we, of course, know that when there are higher prices, when there are higher rates but sure. And certainly the Federal Reserve board i mentioned that because, you know, we had a peak of 9. 1 inflation in 2022. I think around june. And that, that was the highest rate in 40 years. So i just wanted to point that out. But i know, in respect to the i know mchenry mentioned this earlier, and i shared with his concern, because back in august last year, or this year, i let a letter with chairman of the Financial Institution yeah, Financial Institutions chairman, andy barr, and there were 17 of my colleagues that led, you know, send a letter voicing our concerns regarding the announcement of the informer dialogue between cfpb and the european commission. And in that letter, we specifically asked the cfpb to brief this committee. So i want to ask you again, will you commit to briefing this committee . Because we want to ensure that the eu is not exporting their financial laws and regulations in the United States. Let me be clear, were not cutting and pasting anything from there. Were having a meeting, a series of meetings, because many of the issues, particularly we havent got the briefing we face some serious Global Threats when it comes to some of the issues, particularly from back east in china and russia, and i do think that we need some Global Cooperation on this. Yes, we will brief you, but we are having meetings with them. Were having meetings with them, because let me reclaim my time, because i do want to another question regarding the cfpbs outline. Because on that sdr a proposal raise concerns about legal versus factual disputes, and there is considerable caselaw and supervision guidance around factual disputes, because those questions can be determined by reinvestigation. So, you know, the resolution of a legal dispute depends on information that is generally not reported to a Consumer Reporting agency. So how could Credit Bureau make a determination on a legal matter . Mr. Chairman, can i respond . Gentle lady is out of time. Well answer for the record. We can get that in writing, im sure. What were going to do with because there is an open rollcall going on right now, were going to go to congressman flood, and then were going to recess. We have four more members, but it should be very quickly, because theres only two votes, and then we will come back in and finish with those four members. Next we will recognize the gentleman from nebraska, mr. Flood. Thank you to the very capable chairman from wisconsin. Mr. Chopra, id like to focus on the cfpbs recent rulemaking for larger participants in the market of digital Consumer Payments. This rulemaking covers a lot of ground from thirdparty platforms used in Small Businesses across the country to Digital Asset wallets. Lets start with the implications for Digital Assets. When describing the Supervisory Authority that the bureaus larger participant rulemaking would give to the cfpb, there is a footnote explaining, and it says, quote, the cfpb Supervisory Authority is not limited to the product or services that qualify the person for supervision, but also includes other activities, end quote. In my view, this footnote signaled the rulemaking would cover far more than the, quote, general use digital Consumer Payment applications, end quote. Can you comment on the cfpbs intentions surrounding the scope of this rulemaking . So i wouldnt miss read that. We are looking to make sure theres a level Playing Field between the banks and Credit Unions that offer these services, and the large nonbanks. We already have Enforcement Authority over all of these entities that would be covered. It wouldnt create any kind of new jurisdiction. But what were doing is going through the rulemaking process to establish for certain larger participants on are they following the law . Existing law . We could go through that process by, you know, an enforcement investigation. Thats more adversarial. I think this is a little bit more of a way to make sure that there are not harms, given some of them, really, are touching tens of millions of customers. But i think i hear the concern, which is kind of going outside of the jurisdiction, but we can only supervise and enforce the laws that congress has specifically designated for spirits given that the rule does not cover some Digital Asset transactions like an investiture purchasing bit going through a brokerage account, but does cover others, how would the cfpb distinguish between the different types of actions conducted by the same Digital Asset wallets like to yeah, so were going to have to deal with that. I think most of what were going to be doing is focused on ones where its really Consumer Payments. I think were trying, inasmuch that theyre doing two different activities, we have a lot of familiarity how to do this. Many of our banks, they have broker dealers affiliated with them. They have business, commercial businesses that we dont cover. So when we do an examination, we explain. Were covering the, the activities under federal Consumer Financial protection. So do you think the cfpb has regulation e authority over transactions using a Digital Asset like a stable going to purchase a consumer good or service . Well, so part of it, its really a Electronic Fund transfer act has covers the transfer of funds. There is certain exceptions for when it is for trading of securities. I think theres other exceptions there. Overall, when you have a Consumer Payment for household use, you know, i think the case law would suggest that is covered, but were collecting comment on this, just to make sure. And weve been pretty judicious on this point. Ive raised with chairman mchenry and others that, you know, inasmuch that you all enact anything, we will need to make sure that it is, is well reflected. Id like to quickly switch gears and discuss some of the nonDigital Asset implications of the rule. Given that Third Party Payment processing tools are popular among Small Businesses, how can you be sure that this rule wouldnt result in some of the cost of compliance being passed down to the Small Businesses . Well, the rule proposes only for larger participants. So we propose a threshold for which were getting comment on. So its really not supposed to implicate Small Businesses, and its really focused on those Consumer Payments. So i, i will keep my eye out for that, but again, theres not any kind of new authority. We currently have enforcement in other authorities over, over these firms already. I appreciate that. You know, the cost benefit analysis in this rule states that the bureau lacks sufficient information to predict how compliance cost would be, quote, or by providers or passed on to the consumers, end quote. However, you certify that the proposed rule would not have significant impacts on small entities, and therefore the rule would need to go through the Small Business panel process. So we got 20 seconds left. Real quickly, how can you assert the rule will not have an effect on Small Businesses if the analysis fails to even attempt to weigh the rules compliance cost . I think the rule proposal exempts Small Business. Okay. Naked, mr. Chairman. And ill let you know if its something different. Gentleman yields back. We will recess to the call of the chair