Were failing to get these perpetrators into the criminal Justice System and what we need to do to improve our abysmal record in that regard. I thank all of you for being here. You were all invited because you are experts in various ways on this issue. And this is not a hearing. This is a conversation. The goal here, and i want to say for senator gillibrand and senator blumenthal, they are both very sorry they cannot be here today. Im sure theyll be participating in the other roundtables we will have. Were working on drafting legislation. And what we want to do is maybe simplify because i know this is now a complex labyrinth of different rules between save and cleary and title 9 and different standards of proof, different state statutes. We dont even agree on the definition of consent. So those are challenges that i know this area represents and we want to see if we can simplify, clarify, augment, support, perhaps provide more mandatory training but with the grants that go with that so that universities can access grants to help train people on campuses for important things like that initial forensic interview that we all know is crucial that, frankly, if theres one thing i could do by waving a magic wand and that is making sure every victim at the moment of report is immediately seen to by someone who is trained that can do the type of interview that makes the difference between success and failure in terms of ultimately bringing someone to justice for a serious felony. As many of you know, i have already sent letters requesting detailed information from the department of justice and the department of education regarding their enforcement and oversight. Ive also launched a survey of 450 college and universities regarding their policies and procedures relating to Sexual Violence. I am holding these roundtables to hear from stakeholders about how they think we can best address this problem an College Campuses. Today, as i said, well focus an clairy and campus save acts. Two pieces of the legislation which among other requirements mandate that schools collect and report information about Sexual Violence. These requirements are, in fact, a great start. But im concerned they havent been adequately enforced. I also believe that we can do better to address this problem through this enforcement regimen. Im a former prosecutor. And, obviously, that informs my approach to this problem. I want to know that survivors are getting the services they need and that perpetrators of Sexual Violence are being held criminally accountable. But i know thats not all thats required. I also want to make sure that whatever steps we take Going Forward are the right ones and that we respect the rule of law in this country which includes due process. I know that commitment is shared by senator gillibrand and senator blumenthal. I now like to invite our participants to go around the table and introduce themselves. If you would, give a very brief introduction as to the work you do and where youre from. I ask that you keepior remarks are limited at this point so we have plenty of time. I have lots of questions. I want to make sure we have time to get to all of the questions and that i hear all of your concerns and comments that will help inform our decisions as to legislation moving forward. Why dont we start to my left. My name is you need to hit the button and there you go. My name is tracy. Im with safer or students active for ending rape. We were founded by students at Columbia University in 2000 and later reorganized as a National Nonprofit organization that empowers College Student activists to reform their Campus Sexual Assault policies and hold them to transparent investigative and disciplinary processes and supporting survivors. My name is holly. Im the director of the Sexual Assault prevention and Awareness Center at the university of michigan. In that role ooum responsible for overseeing the institutions prevention efforts, our response efforts as it relates to students who are survivors of Sexual Assault, intimate partner violence, Sexual Harassment and stalking. And i also serve in a leadership role in developing policies and processes at the institution and ensuring compliance with campus save and other federal mandates. Good afternoon. My name is lynn. I work for the office of Postsecondary Education at the u. S. Department of education. Im responsible for the regulations that implement the violence against women act and other cleary issues. And save . Yes. Im alson, the executive director for the Cleary Center for security an campus. We were finded in 1987 by howard and connie clery and provide training and Technical Assistance to clery compliance and benchmarks as well. Im caroline carver. I represent the university of south florida system. Im the associate Compliance Officer for that system. My chief responsibilities are to oversee Higher Education opportunity act compliance including clery, violence against women act and also where those law s interface with titl 9. Good afternoon. Im the chief of police at George Mason University but im here on behalf of the International Association of campus Law Enforcement administrators. Im lauren dunn. Ive been a long time activist over eight years now and recently graduated from the university of Maryland Law School just this last friday. So i guess im a lawyer now and thats the first time youve been able to say that. Yeah. It feels good. Also the founder of surv justice. Its support institutions in handling Sexual Assault. Senator baldwin, welcome. Were glad youre here. And ill turn it over to you if you have any comments before we begin. Absolutely. I first want to thank you and some of our other Senate Colleagues for convening this first in a series of roundtable discussions on Sexual Assault and violence on campus. And i want to thank you forrior critical work on the issue. I also want to share some words of praise with the administration for taking, i think, very important steps to raise the profile of student Sexual Violence, including an establishment of a White House Task force to look further into the issue. And while im encouraged by the advances that were seeing on this issue, including the strengthening of federal law that well be talking a little bit more about today, i also think we can all agree theres much, much left to be done. And so i wanted to just call attention to two quick issues. I was proud in recent weeks to introduce the tyler clementy antiharassment bill that would include cyberbullying and harassment into our antiharassment policies. For those of you who know about the life of tyler clemente, he was the victim of cyberbullying and ended up after his freshman year committing suicide because of the because of the activities. I also, and we can address this in the discussion, but senator mccaskill, you and your colleagues on the Services Committee have done just an incredible job of elevating the issue of the Sexual Violence that we see in our military. Theres one issue that i see sort of overlap between what were talking about today and that and thats the rotcs on our campuses across the country where many of our officers are trained and come through. And i have certainly heard anecdotal information that concerns me and thinks we need to raise the elevate the focus on that in terms of Data Collection and understanding really whats happening. And so it complements your leadership on that committee with what were doing here today. So, again, thank you to all of you for coming, and i see a fellow badger. So thank you for being here. Thank you. And were glad youre here, senator. Lets start with the clery act. And maybe allison you can start off and all of these, everyone should just jump in. This will be a freeflowing discussion. The worst thing that could happen is for you to leave this room saying, i wish i would have told her this or told them about this. We want to hear everything that frustrates you. Everything you think is working. Everything that you think is problematic. You know, please dont hold back. The clery act, i think that at least in some of the people ive talked to it was originally envisioned this would be data people could rely an and it would be consumable by someone. The problem is now, i dont think anybody knows the data is even there. I mean, getting past the first problem that its not reliable. The second problem is thatrelia. The second problem is that it doesnt appear to me to be out there where families even know that it exists. That this is something that they could even ask for and find out what the data is on a campus. So allison, who do you believe the data is for . Sure, i interviewed one of our people recently for something separate and we talked about the intention to be forewarned. To let people know when they go to a campus what crimes have been reported on that campus, so for current students, prospective students, current employees, prospective employees. Often how it plays out, if you have a campus, for example that reports 60 sex offenses versus a campus that reports zero, the perception is that that campus reporting 60 is unsafe, where i would disagree with that. That that campus reporting 60, and as a prosecutor you know that its often underreported. So thats one of the challenges i see with the numbers. The annual security reports that campuses produce at that are to be made public for families, for employees are wonderful documents that provide summaries of policies. One of the other struggles i see is to checkoff the compliance box sometimes those documents are created, and they have policy statements, the summaries, for example of the sex assault policies. And sometimes that policys not being implemented on the campus. Im sure some of my colleagues could add to how i just started the conversation, but. So how do we do better on the problem that if a College Campus says they have zero that should be a real red flag to any parent that that means they are not reporting their statistics and dont take this problem seriously as opposed to one that may have 60, which could mean they have a really Robust Program where they are actively collecting data and victims feel comfortable coming forward. Does anybody have any ideas as to how we could get past that bump . Because thats going to be the problem. I think that is the problem now. There is an incentive to not accurately report. I think the white house already started addressing that. They called it a climate survey. What theyre talking about is the victimization survey. We do have an underreported problem. And when we measure that and have that number at the top of the cleary chart saying theres 100 rapes here and only 5 reported, thats how you contrast it. Sexual violence is everywhere. But when campuses have to face those numbers, i think we start thinking about how that works now with cleary. The challenge is geographically based and bound. And how does that happen everywhere and between students off campus and on campus. The answer to the cleary problem is maybe mandating . Because the white house is talking about voluntarily doing climate surveys . Im very for man dating. They make you return books before you get loma. It has to be have you had an experience where you didnt want this to happen. Because when you force people to identify legally, youre going to see underreporting. I didnt know what happened to me was rape for a long time. I thought it was my fault or something bad that happened. And it took he a long time to come to that realization. So the content is an issue. How its actually conducted. Theres been a long history of victimization surveys in the united states, done by the department of justice. Do you have thoughts or recommendations on that in terms of people, you know, sharing . One of the recommendations that i would encourage is that campuses who are doing surveys use validated instruments for those surveys so we are able to compare campus to campus the information that is coming out of the surveys in the ways that cleary, i believe was intended to function. Also that there would be comparable data. That would be possible when we are using survey instruments that have been tested, demonstrated to measure that which were hoping to measure. And i would note that the university of New Hampshire has had for 20 years a survey that they have used and that that has validated instrument that could be the beginnings of an instrument that other campuses could adopt. So what youre saying is, potentially, we, education or d. O. J. Would come up with a Standard Survey that everyone would use . The standard language on the questions . I would hope that we would come up with a core of standard information that would be able to be comparable from institution to institution. But also that institutions be able to adapt some portions of the survey so that they can actually measure some of the other kinds of interventions that are happening from campus to campus. That this serves not only as a tool for consumers to be able to use to be able to compare data but also as a learning instrument for the campus itself to identify what practices are effective. And it is my hope that those kinds of measures will feed into the yawning gap of research and evidence on what our best practices for prevention as well as response on the College Campus. Those surveys, we need to be able to afford whoever responds to those surveys anonymity, confidentiality so we can truly get to the heart of whats happening. Because if anybody has an inkling their identity is going to be revealed theyre not going to answer and the information will be useless. I would say a good example of that would be an organization that uses instruments and many institutions if not all regularly do. Its all private health data. And people realize it is. To speak to senator mccaskills question about the accessibility of the data on the o. P. s website, currently, depending on how you filter the data, how you access the data through the website. If it pushes the information out in a cell format, sometimes the tabular data comes out incorrect. And there are many typographical errors. Theres errors in spacing, in the columns. And we found that to be a huge challenge. Tell me again where, you used an acronym. The office of post secondary education. If you go to the website on the cleary. And you try to download the clary data, it often comes out with typographical errors, space be issues. And it questions how accurate the data is. Related to that, talking about accessibility of data. I can say we are very disappointed they didnt mention the clary reporting act process on the website. They listed the 55 schools under investigation, but theyre not going to do that again. Now you have to request it. And one of the big problems with this issue, and i know Law Enforcement can speak to it, its a silent issue. People didnt know there was a complaint on campus, and if they did, they could come forward. And the evidence gets flushed out. I think data is of concern. Let me ask our police chief. One of the things that i realize is that the clary act uses definitions from both the ucr and the National Incident base reporting. And its my understanding that if someone is taken by force into their car and driven across town and then they break in somebody elses apartment and then there is a rape, are you reporting a kidnapping, a rape and a breaking and entering as three separate incidents, and nobody has any idea that it was the sail, allinone crime. Is that actually the way it works . Yes, maddal senator. One of the challenges with campus Law Enforcement is not only accessibility of the information but making that information useful. And thats one of the problems that we encounter in our business and Law Enforcement on campuses is the challenge of the differences between ucr and neimers, it presents a lot of challenges for Law Enforcement. Theyre counting these particular statistics. Yet College Campuses are required to come up and try to determine where specifically does it meet the cream. Because we all know state laws var throughout this country. So being able to capture that information and to answer the second portion of your question, the hierarchical role of how we talk about those crimes. The fact of the matter is when the information comes out, its aggregate data. It looks like all these crimes are happening on your campus, when in fact it may be one incident. Somebody who goes on a crime spree one night and could blow up the data over one continuing criminal behavior over one evening because it embraced so many different types of behavior. Exactly. A good example would be a hate crime. Maybe you have to designate a crime as a robbery, but theres some hate in it, you designate it a robbery as to where it occurred and as a hate crime. It looks to the untrained eye as two crimes. Why are we using both uci and n n neiber. Does anybody know how that came about . Rather than putting statistics and numbers, schools have the flexibility of writing a narrative and showing it is one event, and that is what we turned out to do with the gender violence crime. My concern, actually is we only count by victimization. So you can have a gang rape thats one rape even though theres ten perpetrators. That, to me, is shocking. And thats coming up with a bigger problem where we have fraternities and teams. Were counting all the crimes but not all the different perpetrators. Yes. We forget where this problems coming from. Just to add on it too. Theres also the public crime law requirement under clary, you have the ability to detail in more plain language, userfriendly language so to speak thats accessible. So if you are looking at it in institution statistics, you have the ability to request the crime log and get a sense for what occurred or what happened. So thered be a little more detail there. Can i just add to that . That is true about the crime log. And im thinking as a parent of the and the whole idea is to give parents and students to the institution informed information, the probability that theyre going to even know that they can request the crime log, much less read through it to figure out was it one event being counted as many or a gang rape being counted as one. I think thats too much to ask. And the third issue to counting, is its reported as raw numbers. So two rape ts at a campus that a small cosmetology school, 25 students, in a small rural area, versus a large institution, two rapes, 100,000 people. Theyre both two rapes, both horrible but its a different safety situation. And with the raw numbers, theres no way for a parent to compare apples to apples. . So do we need a whole new data schematic for this . Anybody willing to sign up for that project . I think you can capitalize that alone. You can go in and type in your zip code and see the crisis intervention surveys. Type in your school, have the ability to contrast a few colleges. If you want the data to be useful, we need it in one location. And the question on the crime log, its typical to be on campus and can you go see it. It can also be lek drelectronic. Maybe schools can have a link to. It seems to me, with technology today, we ought to be able to do a lot of this more simply with electronics. There ought to be a way that you could have a userfriendly dynamic, where you could go on and click on a university, get the data, get the crime logs. Get, and so you could get context, how many students, and even allow the university to talk about, you know, where their numbers are. Are they up . Are they down . Let them do a narrative to explain, for example, if they are a high number, that this is because theyve put an emphasis on reporting, that they have doubled the number of Rape Crisis Centers and counselor and as a result victims i dont know. Should that all be done through clary . Probably, right . One of the things i think would be very helpful and i would just reflect also that when we look at the numbers and we know that reports dont equal a clear picture of whats happening on campus, i talk to a lot of parents, and parents want to know, how do i make determinations about what is a safer campus for me to send my child. And i think that looking at the prevention and response efforts that are happening on a campus are an excellent determination, because that is something that campuses are able to effect and thats something that we have more evidence makes an impact on campus. So i think, as were looking at finding ways to compare campuses, i think allowing for parents to have the data about those prevention efforts and have the data about those response efforts in addition to the reported incidence would be a very helpful may tribs. Its cop text. Absolutely. Its context, not only whats happening on the campus, but what is the campus doing to address these matters, both proactively and in the event of a traumatic incident. One of the things the white house talked about and spent some time on and havent, i dont think its come to any conclusion, and that is, should somehow this data be included in school rankings, like the u. S. News and world report rankings . One of the challenges with that is because were requiring schools to selfreport. This data that it height not actually paint an accurate picture if youre just looking at the statistical numbers. If youre looking at things, you know, that holly mentioned, like what are the prevention efforts happening on campus. Do they kent students with a local rape crisis center. Do they have a record of crisis intervention, prevention. That data may speak more loudly in itself. Students have filed more and more clary act violations against their campuses. We cannot trust every institution to report the data accurately. If you look at new york state campuses, for example, if you go into the clary data and look at how many assaults are happening per campus in new york state, its less than a half of an assault happening per campus. And if you have one in five woman whos a result of a completed or attempted Sexual Assault, we know thats not correct. And you really have to rely on the institutions to general rate that data, so i dont know if using those numbers is the best way. The climate surveys would be a more accurate picture. Absolutely. And i know they are trying to figure out how to measure, not just compliance with the laws, but true safety. And so having an objective third party kind of coming in as a watchdog and saying institutions, of course you think youre doing a great job, but do you have this policy . Do you have this practice . Are you coordinated with local Law Enforcement or do you have your own security in force. I think we need to look outside schools to see whats really happening. I think its a very wise suggestion to look at climate survey, but in terms of getting better, more accurate, Higher Quality cleary data, are there clear impedestrianments we should be thinking about . Were talking about campuses that have their own Police Department versus campuses that are reporting and interacting with one or more municipal Police Departments that are responding because there isnt a campus. You know, definitions that may be being applied differently in different states and different campuses. Are there a set of clear obstacles that we ought to be grappling with to make that campusbased data more accurate . I have something, if you dont mind. One of the things thats very difficult for me is the compliance person move the mic up a little closer. There you go. One of the most difficult things for me as a compliance person is compliance is all about training, getting earverye on the same page, reporting the same thing. Even the way the law is written right now, we have to train employees on this jurisdiction. Dating, violence, Domestic Violence and stalking, they may or may not have a definition. They may or may not have a definition and consent. When i report for my school, i must report based on the cleary definitions. And theyre not always the same, obviously. So to me, theres a disconnect. To me, it needs to be very simple. Everybody has the same definition. We all report on the same things. Apples to apples. And i think to piggyback on that, the first thing i want to talk about is we talked about having this document that talked about prevention and has the statistics. Institutions have to do that right now with their annual security report which essentially has these cliff notes and policies, and then the numbers. And if order to put that together well, it requires training. So having training, that when you have these summary policies, these policies actually have full policies that they support. And then a step further, the institutions are trained to implement them. What weve seen with a lot of the cases on college and University Campuses across the news is theyre not implementing policies well, and survivors are suffering as a result. And thats when you see major changes made. So some of the institutions that have made some major changes, specific to cleary compliance as well as title ix thats a conversation for two weeks from now. Theyre making changes because theyve been called out on it. Theres been public scrutiny. So now theyre investing resources, leadership. Theyre talking about cleary when their board of trustees or chancellors have never talked about it or possibly have misspelled it for several years. So now theyre talking about it and doing some work around compliance. So a lot of, too, a lot of what is there in the law, if youre trained on it, if its being implemented, i think works well. The challenge i see a lot day to day as a campus director and as an organization that works and trains folks on compliance with cleary, we get some people who get it on campuses who really are in a compliance role, and they get it, and they understand what the requirements are. But theyre that lone soldier. A lot of times when we talk institutions. Well say just support, ask them what theyre doing and how to help. Even if having the president s name attached to something can help. So i think theres and i dont have a solution, i wish i did but you cant have a conversation without ignoring the organizational elements. It has almost been like a check the box thing on too many campuses. We are going to do the bare minimum weigh have to do to be compliant. But were not having the support on campus to make this work the way its supposed to work. I mean, frankly, we dont have a data yet from the survey, but i think we do need to make some changes, because nothing is more frustrating than a rote exercise that you are required to do that has no meaning. Thats why people get mad at the government. And thats one of the problems that weve got here. If every campus took it seriously and tried to support it and understand that theres something thats required other than cut and paste oh, its time to cut and paste on the security report again, right . And, and put the same language in. I bet if we look, those reports change very little. And im someone that says, i wish we didnt have to do enforcement. I wish we could train and educate and people would do it. But were seeing, anecdotally, is that enforcement is the only way were going to see changes. I can name five institutions on one hand who do it really well. Theyre all under investigation. . Right. To piggyback off what allison was saying in october of last year, our results were published from our accountability project. And we looked at 300 School Policies related to Campus Sexual Assault. A third were not compliant with the cleary act in written policy. So were seeing a third of the schools out of 300 samples are not complying in some way with their policy how can they be compliant in action. That means thousands of schools are not compliant. Exactly. And id like to add, to me, as a Compliance Officer, what i do is look at the statutes, i look at the regulation and then i help administration and management interpret it into a policy, and then i work with the units to help get it done. But im a Compliance Officer, and my management team, theyre not experts in Sexual Assault, dating violence, Domestic Violence, reventing those types of crimes. What we need is simple things. Give us a model policy. What does it look like . And not just cut and paste. Heres the legalese from the legislation. I put it in my policy, now we have a policy. We need the procedures to implement it. And i thought of a simple solution. The department of education, they conduct audits. Surely they could publish best practices. What have they seen when theyve gone into institutions. The institutions that are implementing procedures that are right. Could they publish their audit report so that we can see, the good and the bad. Where are those audit reports . Do those audit reports get published . Our office of student aid does compliance reviews, and that information does become public. I want and where, if i wanted to go look at the results of a compliance audit done by d. Or n not, department of education, where would i find it. Its on the fsa data website. Whats that stand for . The office of federal student aid . So click on there, am i going to be able to find this, these audits and universities that have been cited for not being compliant on clary . Yes. And is that just part of a larger audit, or do you do clary specific audits . We have put a highlight on clary in recent years. In 2010, the office of federal student aid, which is responsible for enforcing the cleary rules created a special unit that does nothing but cleary compliance. It started out with five staff members. Its grown to 13, and we have plans to double that in the next few years. So there are specifically cleary compliance reviews being done. As well, when we do audits on larger compliance issues, we also look at clary through them. So its being done through two different mechanisms so about how many institutions on an annual basis are getting a clary compliance audit either through this clary specific unit or as part of the larger student aid, is that what its called . Yes. A larger fsa audit. What would be the number on an annual basis in. I dont know the number on an annual basis. About 300. 300 a year. And has there been any attempt to collate those results and put a report together on the status of clary compliance on College Campuses on an annual basis that we could look at year to year . Has there been any effort to do that . We have not done it yet, but we are going to implement that. Okay. And i, ive, besides being a pros securityecuto prosecutor, i was also an auditor. You have 7,000 campuses . Yes, we certainly are planning to grow that office, and as i mentioned, we are also doing that through our larger compliance efforts, so its not just 13 people. How many of the just clary audits are being done by the 13 auditors on an annual basis as opposed to the 300 number . The clary special unit, how many are they doing . About 20. Thats still a lot for 13 people. I cant wait to look at the audits. I want to see what they are. We actually have a summary, if it would be helpful, too, of the findings that we put together and a spreadsheet im happy to share. That would be great. Id like to see it. To the donts credit, theyre the only department enforcing it. Theyre not specialized. And that is a big part of this problem. We spend all day making laws, making rule, making regulations. Its overwhelming to institutions. Then when it comes to survivors, you dont have enforcers who know the details. So on the governments side there could be a better pro; having more people, having more funding, not a big person on giving more money for other than survivors to recover, but if youre going to spend money somewhere, please spend it on enforcement. Allow them to have specialized units. Or at least forced integration. And i think that would help institutions, because they are splitting their minds on the issue of Sexual Assault between two laws. And now three. And it is difficult. So if the government can figure out how to put it into one unit, so can institutions. And they can model that better for the institutions. Absolutely. Let me add this to that. I was also a former auditor but of clinical trials. And what we did for fda studies, they had a wonderful checklist, if you will. So we knew when the audit team came in, what are they going to be looking for, so thats whew what we were going to be graded on. Youve got all this time where were not getting it right, and id rather get in front of it and get it know, caroline, youve got to do x, y, z. Fine. The only problem with that, i will tell you that having, when the federal government does audits on Law Enforcement, on child support, and when i took over that office, we werent collecting very much child support, but we were passing every audit. So they were so busy checking the box that they knew they were going to be looked at, nobody was asking the question, why arent we collecting more child support. So they were busy. So you have to be careful when you do that because then institutions train themselves to be audit responsive as opposed to getting at the underlying problem. Its not that they pass the audit, its that victims are getting the services on campuses. Young people on campuses are being trained about the reality of this problem and we are getting more Law Enforcement activity around these crimes. I mean, thats ultimately the goal here. Thats the ultimate deterns. I mean, its hard for me to talk about the criminal Justice System today, because ive got to wait two weeks to do that, but it is a huge part of the problem. Lets look at some of the other things i have on my list here. The reporting changes that are coming through save, which were part of vowa. I know were supposed to see a draft soon . Yes, we will publish that in mid june. Under the new law, Domestic Violence, dating violence and stalking must be included. How are you going to handle the confusion around those three crimes . We already have the confusion of reporting each crime separately, but maybe not each perpetrator separately. Are you going to be providing definitions for the difference between dating violence and Domestic Violence . Yes. We had a negotiated rulehaking committee. And several of the members of this round table served on that committee. And we were very grateful for the expertise that you brought to the table. The committee represented a very wide group of interests, from Law Enforcement, thats victims advocates, state attorney generals. Basically, we tried to get the gamut of different interests that would be affected by these regulations. And we grappled with a lot of issues that weve been talking about today, including definitions, chug how criminclu crimes are counted. We talked about Training Programs as well. And we were able with this group with very different interests to come to consensus on language. And i really credit the group, all of you who worked on that, because a lot of tile and effort went into that, and youve worked very hard to come to consensus on that. So we feel as though we have a very good regulation that well be publishing in mid june for Public Comment and we plan to publish it in final by november 1. The definition was the definition on consent, which did come up at the rulemaking table and we didnt create. You mentioned the ucr, that leaves it up to states. Unfortunately, not all states handle it the same. Some have incapacitation. Absolutely. Wisconsin used to be one of them. I dont know what can be done on a federal level there, but we did have a very wonderful, the department did a great job of presenting a definition of consent that talks about not only affirmative consent. You dont have to yell no. You are simply focusing on is there a yes, is there an agreement. And absent that, it cant confer consent. Thats why it hurts survivors so much to say clearly its consensual, because you didnt do x, y, z when you lived through it. Thats whats missing, and it needs to exist. The problem is, that obviously, this is not a federal crime, unless youre on, in the district of columbia or indian reservations in some instances. You know, these crimes are state crimes. So we cant define for states elements of their crimes. But we can do models and incentives. We can. And i think thats one thing we should look at in this legislation is how can we innocent advise states. I was surprised we had 16 states that said it was only by force or threat of force. Thats a lot of states that still dont understand that that is an inappropriate and incomplete definition of consent. So. Madam senator, thats exactly what laura was talking about specifically. But also when you go back to negotiating rule making and coming up with a consensus. The piece on the ucr and neibers, if we can get states to be consistent on their laws, dating l dating violence are not listed. So you are going to continue to have an inconsistent definition from what sheriff departments are reporting versus what campuses are reporting. Should we put clary down as part of the ucr . Should it go in to the Fbis Uniform Crime Reporting Program . Has anybody given that any thought . If i felt the data was accurate, i would say yes, but i know its very much not at this point. I think in the years to come, when survivors are more empowered, that will change. Well feel safe coming forward and reporting. I dont know if it would have the effect we want raight now, but in the future. Okay. Lets talk a little bit about accountability and enforcement. When i realized that the punishment for the department of education and for d. O. J. Is suspending, i know theres a 35,000 fine for violation. But then theres, the punishment that supposedly, supposed to provide all the meat behind this, all the stick behind this is suspending institutions from participating in federal Student Financial aids pro fwral. Does anybody believe that punishment is ever going to be given to anyone . Okay. So every time i told my kids, if you did that again im never going to speak to you, it took them about ten minutes to do it again because it wasnt a realistic deterrent because they knew it wasnt a realistic punishment. What do we need to do, obviously not just with clary, and by the way, a 35,000 fine is nothing to a large institution. I mean, i cant imagine, whats the annual budget at the university of michigan . Several billion. Yeah, so 35,000 fine to an institution that has a 2 billion budget or 3 billion budget, whatever it is, i few it was a lot because you guys have a huge system compared to a small campus that maybe has 500 students, you know, that doesnt appear to make much sense, and it certainly doesnt make sense to threaten something were never going to do. So what do we do about meaningful deterns . Does anybody have any ideas about other ways we could make this work . This is my favorite discussion to have, because its so needed. Cleary, i do think the fines are small ir. I dont know if theres a way to do it percent able wise there is a way to do it percentage wise so it does hurt. At lunch we were discussing penn state getting fined more for their sports violations, millions versus what clary could do it. I think youre hitting at title ix. There are two ways to get at it. One requires voluntary compliance. We saw it first, they violated and they made another agreement again. Watch out, youre only going to get another contract. These are survivors lives being destroyed, leaving schools. So i do think we need intermediate sanctions. Obviously that fine is arbitrary. Were being way too nice to institutions. And as a survivor who suffered at an institution. They dont care. They didnt have a cost. They still dont. And we need to change that. Anybody else on fines . I would say that institutions are already operating, i think, under a lot of anxiety and fear around addressing Sexual Assault on a College Campus. I would be concerned about adding more sticks with no carrots additionally. One of the things that we dont have enough of are programs or grants that encourage and inspire innovation and new practices and new knowledge about this issue, when were placing all of our resources in enforcement and not complimenting that with innovation, then i think that brother creating a situation where we do have box checking instead of new thinking. Well, you know, one of the things about that, and i understand what youre saying, i get what youre saying. But one of the things thats disappointing to me about this is that we depend on College Campuses for innovation for so many things in our society. And you have on a College Campus, and i dont want to pick on michigan, although i kind of would like to pick on michigan. If you were kansas id really like to pick on you. Your system, you have law schools. You have a medical school. You are training psychologists and psychiatrists. And social workers. You have every discipline. And Academic Excellence in every discipline that is needed to come together on this problem. And you have endowmentendowment. You have alumni. If this problem is causing such stress to universities, and it is, because they are worried that they are going to be next. There is going to be a victim come forward and tell another horrific tale about how they were marginalized, how they were shouldn shupted aside. There is a trail of tears of inaction from people who were in a position to help. Why we are not getting more innovation from these College Campuses on an interdisciplinary approach that they are willing to put money behind from their own resources to make it work better. I am very proud to say the university of michigan is in fact innovating that we created one of the first ever primary prevention programs for the collegeage population, that we have implemented a control group matched fouryearlong tud nal study of that program so we can vigorously identify its efficacy. We are planning a second as well. And that is because university of michigan has an extraordinary wealth of resources in all of the ways in which youve identified. And we have chosen to invest them in this effort of the many campuses do not have that benefit of the and we need to be able to extend the ability to innovate to other campuses that dont have those kinds of resources because campuses look different, and we need to have different kinds of knowledge and different kinds of innovations to address specific campus populations. And for those campuses that dont have these resources its important that they have the support and research to do that new thinking so if michigan has, im not, im sure you do have a program that youve put together that is excellent. Thats one of the reasons youre on this panel. What are we doing, and maybe, laura, you can speak to this or any of the other roundtable participants. What are we doing to share that . If you put together a model that works. Mmhm. Where youve got an interdisciplinary approach, where youve got a criminal justice degree, where forensic interviewing is taught, so there are people on campus who understand, theres a big difference between where were you, what did you do, why, why are we not seeing this cross pollinate across the country . I now the office of violence against women has been highlighting what has been done, what does work, and i think that they should be provided resources to do that. I will say in this discussion of carrot, theyll give a grant for three years and the school gets rid of their program when the grants up. It is about enforcement, because schools will have an incentive to keep funding their own programs. They have money. They dont need more. They need to use that money wisely. And unless theres a cost, they wont. There are models of schools that do well. University of michigan has been highlighted. Im very proud that they have done such gait things. But leave that to newspapers and other things. I dont know if thats the business of the government to be doing it. The government needs to put the incentive in the right place. We dont need to be handing out money to rich institutions. Harvard is in trouble. They have money. They will figure it out. Right now, those who leave school in debt have no compensation ever for what is done to them. If were going to give money, lets give scholarships to survivors behave enough to file complaints and make the School Better for earn elveryone else. The prosecutor in me says we cant give scholarships to those brave enough to come forward. Their credibility would be attacked on that. But i get the point that youre making and its a valid one. So does anybody disagree that we should look at fines to be tied to the school as opposed to a set amount . I dont know that i necessarily aagree. And i say that reluctantly. I agree with the point that holly made that and, again, going back to why i did make the statement that institutions that have been changed have been under investigation. So they havent even been found in violation yet. So theyve made the changes, from my view, or from where i sit, based on the media scrutiny, that theyve been on the cover of time, news week. And theyve made changes even before theres any finding of violation yet. So while fines, im sure, serve as some deterrent. I almost think that the public, the attention that has been on this issue for the last six months to two years, but six months in particular, i think the spotlight has really shown on this. So i dont know that putting all of the eggs into looking at fines and the energy into looking at fines, i dont know if thats the way to tackle it. Holly makes a great point that i really agree with coming, putting on high prevention hat, working in a Community Organization and prevention and formally in a college intervention. I was it, so i was charged with preventing alcohol abuse, eating disorders, Sexual Assault, whatever the issue was, quoteunquote, that came up through athletics or greek life, theyd pick up the phone and say okay, weve have an eating disorder. We have to look at the Public Health model which is where we pulled the piece. Colleges and universities have not some have, so i dont want to put them in all one bucket but many because of again, lack of support or lack of resources, depending on their budget endowment are not building Robust Programs around prevention. And if they do have programs around prevention or maybe one person, if theyre lucky enough, theyre not being strategic about how they prevent, so they may do a oneshot orientation presentation. Anstruggle with this daily with how do we get, how do we help them change that. And, you know, beyond writing a check, which i certainly cant do from our nonprofit budget, how do we, how do they do this, right . And even if its creating a grant mow grprogram. And we have one. They do not hand out a lot of those. Its only a small amount. And its writing, again, being at a ips tuesday who could have applied for that. I would have had to then write that federal grant, with maybe the help of irb, who would just sign a piece of paper. So i think that struggle comes in, and it goes back to some of the organizational dynamics within in terms of what is valued, and is prevention valued . And i wish i didnt have to say it, because i value it, but i dont know that its valued in all institutions yet. I think we have a long way to go on the prevention side. But if we dont step up the enforcement side, i mean, the enforcement side brings the media attention. So, if were going to say, the only thing we can rely on, that makes these universities and colleges do what they should be doing is for them to get a bad story. Sure. First of all, thats a lot of victims. Yeah. And, you know, that, to me, would be a depressing conclusion. So weve got to figure out some way to up the ante that is short of waiting for another tragedy to hit the pages. I would say a 13 team person cant do it, so i think its the changes ive seen institutions start to make are when theyre immediately under investigation, so no fine yet. We dont know if the fine is 35,000 or upwards of 1 million. So i would almost rather see the investment in a team. But in all fairness, the fines will be paying for this. We have this coming in our government, where does the money come from . I think every survivor would back that up. Senator mccaskill, if i could add that enforcement, i understand that component, especially being in Law Enforcement. The important piece is to have clarity. Youre enforcing something, yet theres so many people so confused about how to read the regulation or understand whats going on. So its hard to say up enforcement when you have so many people who dont understand the regulations. It comes down to training. It comes down to doing a lot of things on the back end. I work with a lot of really good people who want to do the right thing. So im cautious to label institutions when you know, you know, the backside of people who are, a lot of people are really doing the right thick. Its just mass confusion. A lot of it isnt about law. Its about treatment, value that you give to students. I understand. I went to law school. I studied this law. I understand how hard it is. But were talking about victims. At the end of the day, we all want to be on the same page, and thats exactly what im talking about. Through these round tables, i already, today i thought i knew this area pretty well. Ive already learned several things today that i didnt know. There are ways that we can simplify this. I think particularly around what needs to be reported and how you define it. And we need to be less reticent about best practices models being provided to schools. I know the task force has done some of that tool kits. For universities, to help them figure out the right way, and the more we do that, the more consistency we get from campus to campus, and it means all of it gets more reliable. Becauseque compare apples to apples. We have no ability to know which campuses are doing well and which ones arent because they arent even doing it the sail w same way. You can watch the rest of this at cspan. Org. Friday, a discussion about efforts in middle Eastern Countries to recover National Assets stolen by former government officials. Federal officials and experts will be at the center for strategic and international studies, live coverage begins at 9 00 eastern here on cspan 3. With live coverage of the u. S. House on cspan and the senate on cspan 2, here on cspan 3 we kpleemt that coverage by showing you the most relevant hearings and Public Affair events. And then on weekends, its the home of American History tv. American artifacts, touring museums and historic sites. History bookshelf, the best known American History writers. The presidency. Lek tuctures in history. And our new series, real america, featuring archival government and educational films from the 1930s to the 70s. Funn funded by your local cable provider. Like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. Now on more Sexual Assaults on campus. University administrators and advocates for victims of Sexual Assaults make up the panel. This is an hour. Thank you so much, senator. Im so pleased to be here today with you and with senator tester and with my copanelists. Im so grateful to both of you for your commitment to this incredibly important issue and to all of you at this table for your commitment to doing something to address the pervasive and horrible problem of Sexual Violence on campuses. As senator mccaskill said today, i am not able to address individual fact patterns or hypotheticals, because we want to ensure that we are able to conduct investigations of complaints and cases with the kind of independence that we need in order to be able to ensure respect in the court system. But i am delighted to be here today to talk generally about this problem and to answer whatever questions i can. I dont think i need to tell any of you that Sexual Violence is a form of discrimination. It refers to physical acts that are perpetrated against a persons will, or where a person is incapable of consent, can include rape, Sexual Assault, sexual battery, sexual abuse and sensual coercion. I use the term Sexual Assault to refer to all of those. They are obviously a safety issue. But importantly, for the department of justice and the department of education, they are also a civil rights issue, and we have tools that we are committed to using to the utmost extent in order to ensure