See the laboratories of Thomas Edison in fort myers and hear the voices of the mormon tabernacle choir is a lake city. Next, author Elizabeth Mitchell talks about her book libertys torch. It looks at the challenges faced by the french sculpture bringing is designed to tuition. Despite hurdles, he would create what he would call a colossus that would stun the world. This event is from the National Archives. It is a little under one hour. Good afternoon. Archivist of the United States. It is a pleasure to welcome you to the theater at the National Archives this afternoon. A special welcome to those of you joining us by youtube and a very special welcome to our cspan viewers. Today was supposed to have been inational day of celebration john adams vision. It was on this day in 1776 the Continental Congress approved the resolution that declared the United States a free nation, no longer part of the british empire. Adams believed the second day of july, 17 76, will be the most memorable in the history of america. As it turned out, we now celebrate the fourth of july, with the declaration of independence. Elizabethnoon, mitchell will tell us about another symbol of our independence, the statue of liberty. It stands in liberty new york harbor as a beacon for those who come to the shores of the search of the american dream. Our guest will tell us how lady liberty came to our shores. I would like to tell you about some exciting things coming up at the National Archives in the next few days. On friday, our annual independence Day Celebration will begin at 10 00 a. M. On the constitution avenue steps facing the mall. A highlight will be a dramatic reading of the declaration of independence by reenactors portraying thomas jefferson, john adams, Benjamin Franklin and ned hector. From 11 00 until 4 00, we will have family activities. Join us for living history and fun on the fourth of july. It is the best place to watch the parade. Next tuesday at noon in this the author welcome who will discuss his book on world war iis great forgotten battlegrounds. If you want to know more about these and all of our upcoming programs, there are copies of the calendar in the lobby as well as signup sheets where you can receive it. Another way to get more involved in the National Archives is to become a member of the foundation that supports all of our educational and outreach activities. There are applications for membership in the lobby also. Our guest this afternoon, Elizabeth Mitchell, is the author of two nonfiction books on horseracing and the revenge of the bush dynasty. She also recently published nonfiction works about the first female detective in the United States. Her freelance writing has appeared in the wall street journal, chicago tribune. She was also the executive editor of george and spin. She is the cofounder of read this, the group that delivers books to soldiers abroad and children. Writing in the Columbia University summer session and today is here to talk about her third book, libertys torch, the great adventure to build the statue of liberty. Please welcome Elizabeth Mitchell. [applause] i would very much like to thank the National Archives for having me here. Working on a book like this, you cannot bless the archivist enough because they are the ones who beyond any engine searches will find you materials you would never find. They keep them in such great condition. I cannot say enough about their work. Im going to start by telling you how i came to this story. I think i started where most people start, which is with the french government had given the statue of liberty to the american government. I grew up with that story. It was never refuted. I was at the New York Public Library archives. In their manuscript division, i was researching Something Else but found they had the diary of frederic urbanist bertolli Frederic Auguste bartholdi. Towas from 1871 when he came pitch the statue of liberty. It turns out he was not coming under government auspices. He was just this individual who had the idea to create a massive statue. He came to america liking the idea of the american experiment of building a strong democracy, a constitutional government, but he was not exactly in love with america itself could he certainly did not know anyone here. He was working off of letters of introduction. That shocked me. Who exactly wonder was Frederic Auguste bartholdi. At the time, he was 36. He was a middle tier statue maker p. D. Was not extremely famous. From a town where much of it still looks like this , a storybook town on the border of france and germany. It is on the french side. It was a town that had some status because it was part of it was one of the capitals of the region but still very small. Dreamsable to have big in this town. This was his house. His parents were wellconnected. When he was two years old, his father died and his mother was frederic and her son charles. She had great ambitions for them. She was educated and an admirer of the arts. She wrote a letter to one of his uncles when he was a little boy boy, whoi see in this is less than three years old, the signs of strong character and will. It is going to be a challenge to shape that will without breaking it, but i see the seeds of a man of great vision. That was kind of remarkable because it held through trooped through the rest of his life. It was interesting she saw it then. She decided the only way for him to make his mark on world in the same for his brother was to move him to paris. Paris at the time was struck with turmoil. There were revolutions rolling through all the time. It was worth going because that was where if you had a big idea it was going to have enough support or you make the connections that might make it happen. Very early on, she started putting him up in art studios and arranging for art instruction for some of the great from some of the great artists of the day. This she got for him when he was still in his early 20s. This was the studio in which he the earlytty was from stage a statue maker. He was not trying to be a sculptor. He wanted to be the maker of statues. That required business connections and trying to charm people into donating money to get these things made. Man, hell a young entered a piece into the salon of 1855. He got it accepted into the salon. It was the place where people show their art and tried to create a career. A statue of a war hero. He got a commission at the shockingly young age of 19 and pushed aside more established artists to get that commission. I think a lot has to do with his mothers campaigning. He won a thirdplace prize for that statue. He had made it one inch taller than the doorway of the exhibition hall, so it had to be outside. Because it was outside, it got the attention and aenvy of his peers. He mustve learned at that point that big of the benefit of doing a big thing. From that, he gets rewarded with a trip to go to egypt. He went with another artist who was more established. They went off. It was kind of a lark. It was an exotic place to go. It was not exactly dangerous, but it was unusual. Bartholdi decided to teach himself photography. Photography was very new. He learned the craft. He decided to photograph all of the monuments he saw, the sinks ynxes, and also normal life. He became enchanted in the country. He is on that side dressed in the native garb. There was a lot of that among this group. While he was there, he became struck by a few things about egypt. First of all, the sphinxes and the pier mids pyramids. He was amazed by these because they seem to embody eternity. They might wear away somewhere down the line but would stand for all these millennia. Think had ane who i sense of the fleeting nature of life. He lost his father when he was two. When he was born, he was not the first Frederic Auguste bartholdi in the family. There have been another son who lived for a brief time and died, and he had the same name. He had seen his country rocked by one turmoil after another. Seeing these things in egypt that could last was very impressive to him. He came away from that trip saying he wanted to create a colossus that would stun the world. The other thing going on in egypt was the suez canal was being built. The boat he went on to get to ferdinand, the man who decided he wanted to create this thing. What an amazing creation this was. It was digging 100 miles through egyptian desert to connect these two seas so you could cut the trip from europe to india and asia down by 2. 5 months. You would not have the risk of being destroyed around the horn of africa. That was happening. It was this age of magnificent creations, people trying to do things of great daring, so are told he was very influenced by this. So bartholdi was very influenced by this. He wanted to create a colossus. This was the colossus of rhodes. It was supposed to stand according to history, it was a monumental figure celebrating the god apollo. A sort of thank you for the gods intervention in a particular battle. It was supposedly in the harbor of roads rhodes and had been a wonder of the world. Bartholdi wanted to make that, but he wanted to make that for egypt. Design fortholdis the suez canal in egypt. This is the original place he me, that put to looks a lot like the statue of liberty. This is supposed to be a slave woman. The ruler at the time had officially abolished slavery, so it was supposed to commemorate the fact he had done this. The headdress is a little lower, but it is the same drapes and torch. Bartholdi designs this. He goes back to egypt a few years later. He places the model of this in front of the leader. He takes a look at it and seems unimpressed. He says i would like the light to come out of her head as opposed to the torch. Bartholdi said yes, that sounds good. Although he said in a letter to his mother it would not be as good but i did not want to argue the point. Dhi was not impressed trade he was into modern i. T. This was not a modern design. The suez canal is being built. Andare moving mountains this man is coming with a roman statue to put in the harbor. He rejected this idea. Bartholdi goes back to france. It is rocked by the war. He serves in the national guard. Garibaldi,uenced by a flamboyant character there are entity things about them interesting things about their relationship. Ended, the french were defeated. They had to give away the territory in which komar is located. E theoldi had to mak decision to stay and be a german citizen or leave. He decided to go back to paris where he had his studio. When he gets back to paris, his studio is riddled with bullets. The windows had been blown out. Many buildings were smoldering. The week before, it was bloody week. In one week, 10,000 parisians were killed in the street. When he was there, people were still burying bodies in the parks and under the paving stones. Between the left group in paris and the government forces. They had finally had this moment of reckoning that lasted this week. Bartholdi comes into the city, just gets what he needs, and gets on a boat and comes to america to pitch his idea, which i think shows remarkable resilience. Also, it is almost odd. He redesigns his statue. Over there, we have the one for egypt. Here is his new rendition for america. He came to america. Like i said before, he did not know anyone here. He had letters of introduction. He arrived in new york. At the time, this is what new york looked like at 5th avenue. This was a few years before he arrived but did not change much during the intervening six years. He hadlly thought a few ideas about the statue. He liked the islands in the harbor. He also thought it was a good thing to put in central park or prospect park. He went to meet with the designers of those parks. In his diaries, he refers to them singing singing to be wary of him seeming to beware of him. They wont exactly talk to him about his project. You have to wonder if it is because they did not want this massive statue in the middle of their part. Time, the biggest building proposed and not finished was the dakota. The top would have just reached to libertys big toe, so there would have been this thing hanging over new york. He realized that was probably not going to work. On the first trip, he did go out to what is now called Liberty Island. He met with the general and talks about a discouraging day. You can imagine how a general would feel about having this random french person come to his forte and start telling him how he is going to build this enormous woman. In his frustration, he is getting no traction to speak of. He heads out west. He was accompanied by his faithful assistant, this man, simon marie. It is sad because we dont know much about this man other than he seemed to be beloved by everyone he met and was truly educated to bartholdi. Theres not much we have except wings like this. This is the photograph together at niagara falls. They go out all the way. He keeps track of everything he sees. He meets brigham young. At first, he loves him and thinks he is a noble man and amazingly bright. That is what he thought he would be making a bust of brigham young. Brighamnd of the visit, young says i am busy and can you come back the next day. He gives up on him entirely and is annoyed by him. He goes to san francisco. He goes to the chinese quarter. He goes to see the redwoods of california. He sees politicians hammering it out and has interesting scenes of that. He is swept away by the thescape of the west, monumental cliffs and chasms the trains have to go over, just the ingenuity of making the train tracks. Something out there in america made him a believer, lets say. He comes back to the east coast. He realizes he does not have much to go on. He does not have much support, but he is going to try his best to get this made. He goes back to france and has a few other projects he is working on. He gets the services of the money we iron works. He starts to have a strategy of how they will get this done. They had to fund raise in france because they had to get it started somewhere. Have theis he will french raise half the money and the u. S. Raise the other half. The french will probably all rally because it will be this great tribute to the relationship between the french and american. The french have a fundraising dinner at the beginning and it goes away. He does not know what he will do to raise money. He has to come up with various schemes spread he will have operas, a concert. Headed to the fact that in 1876, theres going to be this 100 anniversary of the country and the world expedition was going to be held in philadelphia. It would be the first world expo in america. He wants to build the hand with the torch and exhibit it there. This picture was taken at one of the happier moments of the creation of this. One of the more unhappy moments is hes getting it ready and needs it to go with him to philadelphia. He is leaving in may. It has to be there for sure on july 4. The philadelphians have already made a pedestal for it. Hes about to go and heres the they used to make the statue has toppled over and cracked. They have to start the whole thing over again. He was in quite a sweat that he would have nothing to show, so he goes to philadelphia and waits for his hand. Eventually, the hand of drives arrives. It is at the end of the world expo. Luckily, the weather had gotten nicer. He was able to get people to come by and take a look at the torch. He thought this would make americans crazy with excitement. Instead, they were more suspicious. They said the drawings we have and show this big woman there are three people standing at the base of this. Is there no enthusiasm in france for the concept . Second of all, if it took that much money and effort to make that, how much more would it take to make the entire woman . He does not get the fundraising he is hoping for. Toships this to New York Madison square park hoping that will make things happen. At first people are interested because it is so big. Over time, they lose interest and it blends in with the scenery. The difference between when it was here and people were lining up to see it and new york was that in new york, it was not open to visitors. Bartholdi understood people want a thrill. They want to fun. They dont want to just look at something and admire it. He decides he has to use it as a raise way to raise money. In france, he goes to the greatest opportunity at her designer in paris greatest theater, opera designer in paris. Dioramas were the main entertainment for people before movies. You would walk into a room and suddenly feel like you were dining with cleopatra or had gone from summer to winter in a minute. People thought they were the most fantastic way to spend your evening. He sets one up that looks like the new york harbor. He thrilled people. They felt they walked in and could feel the sea breezes. There are people talking yankee fashion near you. They flocked to that. They paid the ticket price. A lot of money was raised through this endeavor. Up the headand set at the paris expo in 1878. This was one of those magical things that made people realize he was doing something special. At this point, a few visitors came to see it, including Joseph Pulitzer. It was a key thing he saw this head at the 1878 world expo. There is the question of who is the face of liberty. The story goes around that it is the face of his mother. Some places say he said it was his mother. When i looked at the original text that is based on, it did not happen quite that way. He did not confirm it. Heenator at a dinner said had gone to see this had been made and went to the opera with bartholdi and saw the mother sitting in the audience and said to bartholdi, that is the face of liberty, and bartholdi squeezed his hand. When he tells at a dinner, bartholdi gets teared up. But bartholdi never exley said this is the face of my mother. Never actuallyi said this is the face of my mother. I think he would have. If you study the faces, this is the mother. Built. After liberty was her nose is narrow and she has thin lips. That is a closeup of the face. Here is his brother. Bartholdi was a person who studied faces. This is what he had to do as a living, make likenesses of people that were accurate. That, youdnlarge would see the brow is very similar. Andnose is the same width the mouth has the fuller lip. The brother is the older brother. Growing up, this brother showed greater artistic promise. He was very smart and studied for the law. He looked to have a promising law career, but he went mad. Had the sad job of taking his brother in institutionalizing him. Brother go to visit his sometimes multiple times a week and sit with him. Sometimes he would be raging and sometimes he would he quiet. Bartholdi would stay no matter what he was doing. He did put the faces of people he loved in his work. Theres a church in boston. Bartholdi did the frieze. It is supposed to be pictures of christian life. He has garibaldi marrying sorry,dis mother lincoln in one of the images. That was common for him. I believe it was the face of the brother. Funding started to come in in france, mainly because of these entertainments. And ran a lottery, everybody wanted to getrichquick. So they could start building. Here they are in the workshop. That shoulder looming over there is spooky. It is such a beautiful photo. Wasconstruction technique that they would make lattices of everything. This was from enlarging a model and breaking it into sections. They would cover it in plaster. Then they would create boards that would stack together like a topographic map. Those would be the form on which they would hammer the copper. It was incredible process. The copper was only the thickness of two pennies. They would use little hammers or levers. When it was put in place in paris, they made rivet holes but screwed it together every other one. In new york, it is an inch apart for every rivet, which is incredible. After they hammered everything, they would break apart the mold beneath. That is bartholdi looking on at the work. They made it in paris to test the structure. And also, because bartholdi was a wise enough businessman to realize if you put it up if he put it up, people could climb to the top and he could earn money to make up for the funds spent. Here it is at the workshop. Thisu lived in the area, is what you would see as you came out of your house. America, you would think this thing being made would make everybody in america decide we will do our part to raise money for the pedestal and put it up. That was an amount bigger than the amount to build the statue in france. Would do their part announcing the fact there was fundraising, but nothing was catching on. To the point where Joseph Pulitzer takes a look at an article about this in one of the other papers, and he goes and makes a query with the American Committee about how much they raised. They had Something Like 1300 in the bank. He is outraged. They have charles stone, a former civil war hero who had been disgraced during the civil war and spent time in lafayette risen as a trader, even though there were never specific charges brought against him. Without anyreleased explanation for why he had been held in the first place, retreated to egypt for a while and advised the leader over there, and then came back to america. As soon as he came back, he got the job of doing the pedestal of the statue of liberty. He was determined to clear his name and become a hero again. They had him on the case but still no money to build the thing. They had the workers. A lot of them were from the making of the brooklyn bridge. They were just on standby. They started to create the concrete structure for the pedestal. But sometimes they would have to stop. There was one time when they had the structure about this hike. Height. They had the structure in paris. Everything stopped for a year. There was no money to do it. Bartholdi was frantic. Not only because he needed to get this done but also because he needed to come up with a way to move it out of the workshop because he could not leave it there forever. It was costing money all the time it was not being built. This is when pulitzer steps in. Pulitzer basically hated the rich people of america but loved the little man. He saw this as a fight in those terms. If the millionaires would just give their money, the thing would be made. Saidote an editorial and lets just forget about them, they are too cheap to do this, we are going to do it. I will run the name of every person who gives a penny to the fund. People started giving money. A lot just wanted to see their names in the paper. Circulation started skyrocketing. But hebeen a dead paper, built largely on the back of this project. He did raise enough money. Iberty came to america it almost crashed. There was a terrible storm at sea. It made it to the u. S. Late. There were many other struggles when it first arrived. There was a year where nothing was going on again. They started putting it up and putting on the copper cladding. This is a lithograph made at the time to give the true account of what was going on. The other thing is the americans worked without x exterior scaffolding when they put it up. Even the french thought it was lunacy. You could die doing it. You can see people hanging off of it to put on the rivets. Inerty was inaugurated october of 1886. Where there had been so little support before, between polis ups pulitzers drumming excitement and the fact there was a day off given to everyone in new york, people showed up. Charles stone, the civil war hero who needed to be redeemed, it was a prayed to end all parades. 30,000 marchers, a naval parade. It was a foggy day. If you were on sure, you could not see liberty. A Million People turned out and it was a huge celebration. People were so excited about it. In the week to come, when bartholdi went to niagara falls, they would stop the train just to get a glimpse of him and write articles about how he was a handsome man. He was the one to rip the flag off of libertys face to unveil her to the world. It is unclear exactly why, but the moment was premature. He was supposed to wait until she was officially handed over to the president. Instead, there was a speech been given. The person mentioned the name bartholdi. The crowd erupted into roars and he yanked the thing off. Whistles and the canon went off. No one could hear anything else could the ceremony could not be finished. It was basically him saying, if not for me, this would not be there. One other interesting thing is the scaffolding inside liberty was an engineering feat. First engineers was one of the best in the world. It was exciting he had him on board. He was a man meticulous with his details. Sketched even the last screw, but he never made sketches of what would happen with liberty. They had just raised enough money in france to build her and the man drops dead of a brain aneurysm. Bartholdi was left in the situation of having the idea but no way to make the things stand, so he went to the next best person he could think up. It was the man who made extraordinary ridges around the world. Eiffel made this inner scaffolding. He said it would be a quick thing and he would not get invested in it. Toer on, there is reference him thinking of liberty being ugly cladding to his beautiful scaffolding. A few years later, he made the eiffel tower. He made it just a little taller than the statue of liberty, thus taking away its claim to the tallest structure in the world. This is bartholdi. I love this picture. This is Richard Butler. Everyone got annoyed with bartholdi at one time or another. He could be funny and charming but was also very demanding. Magnet, neverbber tired of the man. I think this picture shows the warmth of their friendship. , what became of him, you would think the man who made the statue of liberty would live in fame and wealth. He copyrighted the image of so if anyone76 used the image on a postcard or in an advertisement or a painting, he would get some money from it. But it quickly spun out of control, and he never got any money from it. He used to write Richard Butler all the time begging him to pursue this or that copyright problem. Butler tried his best but never could. Bartholdi felt sort of humiliated because he thought from this americans would be giving him commissions right. There was a competition for the statue of yet. Bartholdi but it would be given to him as a commission. He found out they invited a lot more artists to compete and had given them longer times to put in their piece. This is when they already had bartholdis model to judge. He was rejected for that job. He did not get that kind of the cclaim. A he had a very emotional attachment to the statue of liberty. He married a woman when he was in newport, rhode island. It was a french woman. There is mystery around that. That is in the book. It appears he knew her in france and brought her to america so he could marry her outside the prying eyes of his mother who was overinterested in his personal life. At one point, he writes to the wife. Obviously, she brought up the issue. I am paraphrasing. She mustve said it was said they had no children. But it was said, what of our daughter liberty . There is a lot of irony. Sted byre some myths bu knowing the true story. It is amazing how it has functioned, reminding us all the time of what we are supposed to be. What would we be without it . We have a human face that greets people into the country and also used as our logo around the world. That more than the flag, we can say this is what we stand for, so it was worth it. That is it. [applause] i think we will take questions now. It would be good if people could go to the microphones because cspan is currently recording this kindly recording this. Will you talk about emma lazarus quotation . I would love to. Was written poem for a fundraising effort for the bartholdi statue. It was done towards the tail end of the production of the statue. This woman in new york had gathered the largest collection of artwork new york had ever seen. There was no metropolitan museum of art at the time, so this was an incredible thing. She approached a bunch of writers. Mark twain contributed to that booklet. She went to her friend, emma lazarus, a poet who had gained fame for her poetry bringing to light the plight of refugees from the russian pog rims pograms. She said, would you write a poem . She thought it was a scheme of ego and said no. Her friend said, what if you think about the refugees . She went back and gave the poem. It was published in the newspaper and people loved it. It disappeared. There was no sign of it anywhere. Emma lazarus died a year later. When theme years later friend decided to put it on a plaque at the statue of liberty and paid for that. Even then, no one paid attention to it. It was not until a journalist around 1950 saw it and wrote about it. It started to have more meaning to people. It encompasses the way we think of the statue of liberty now as being this greeting point for immigrants. It is a meaning even more elegant than what bartholdi thought. When the island was considered as a processing station for immigration, he said that would be an abomination and despicable. I think he thought this would cause a busyness around his statue. Overly, her poem won out his feelings about that. Any other questions . I walked in at slide one or two. Feel free to skip this if you covered it. About this project. Did it the devil you for some time or did it just happen . How did it fit in with your other current passions . An overview of how this project work for you. It was probably around 2003 diary stumbled across the at the New York Public Library manuscripts division. I was definitely interested at that time. Agent i wouldmy be interested in doing this story, but nothing came of it at that point. Butved on to other things, i was was interested in the story. Later on, i was talking to an editor friend and said i always wanted to do this. He was an editor at byliner. He said, please do. So i wrote it. Grove noticed it and said they wanted the bigger story. To me people are interested in the story the same way i am because i hold onto it for a while. There is a certain humanity to it that interests me a lot. Where does our bartholdi fountain fit into this saga . Fountain he created to bring to the 1878 world expo 1876 in philadelphia. He sighed as a fundraising tool for his statue of liberty. He thought he would exhibit it in some city or town would want to buy it. , nobody hado ended shown any interest. He was devastated because not only did he not sell it to make the money, but he was going to have to figure out a way to ship it back to france. It was a while before it got adopted town here. Down here. He used copper on that and had iron fittings on it. That had any version problem for a while erosion problem for a while. Later when liberty was having an erosion problem before it was even standing, they were saying he should have learned you cannot combine those metals directly. That was his process with that. I commend you on a fine presentation. I would like to know about access to the torch. I understand when it was opened, people could go into the torch. You showed a slide of a person looking over the balcony of the torch. Im curious as to why it is not any longer accessible. What is the access even to the crown now . Is it all stairs . It is. There was a time even during bartholdis time where he thought there would be an elevator going up, but it is stairs. The torch has ways been tricky. In paris, no one had a problem going up into the torch. When it came to america, i found funny accounts of workmen putting it together on the american side. Isy said we think the torch going off in the first hurricane. Up with thisd massive piece of copper and have no idea where it goes. It is possible it was where the arm is. The arm was put in about 18 inches off alignment it was supposed to have. It was unstable. There were only fleeting times it was open to the public. Now it is too risky. Maybe iten accounts is different since hurricane sandy. There was one family that lived on Liberty Island as the caretakers of the statue and land. There are these accounts that the teenaged boys used to be able to get into it, which would have been impressive to their , to say we will go up there and hang out. I believe the torch was originally opened the public. Before we got involved in world war i, there was a munitions explosion on the jersey side of the island. It slightly damaged the torch. It has been closed to the public ever since with no plans of reopening it. Thank you. It was a fleeting moment. There were accounts at the time of people going up all the way. Women were not invited to the inaugural, other than bartholdi insisted his wife go. Ferdinand insisted his 13yearold daughter also be allowed to attend. But no other women were allowed to go. On the day of the inaugural, one woman went to the island and climbed up to the torch. It was in the papers and everything about how she had done it. She was quickly hustled off the island. There was a brief period when they could do that. Anyone else . [applause] thank you. American artifacts on American History tv. Visit to the our National Security archives at George Washington university reveals declassified documents. Week, congressis passed the gulf of tonkin resolution giving president johnson broad powers to wage war in southeast asia. Watch more American History tv next week. While congress is in recess, American History tv would be in prime time featuring events from watergate on the 40th anniversary. American history tv a monday night on the communicators, three members of Congress Talk about their technology legislation. I believe an open, a free internet. When you look at where the internet has come and going into the future, only the private sector. Privacy, not expose the product. Rulesnk these blackout the ftc to the first move finally at the end of the year but we believe they will follow suit. Addressl that tries to rules over returns mission consent basically giving people level footing when it comes to negotiating with a broadcast and big apple to negotiate