For hisr william link book righteous warrior jesse helms and the rise of modern conservatism. He is a professor of history at the university of florida. I read his zerotolerance policy for plagiarism on his website i want to acknowledge portions of this introduction are lifted from the website. He was born to North Carolina parents in evanston, illinois, grew up in new jersey, and spent the summer months down here in North Carolina. He graduated from Davidson College in 1976 and received a phd in history from the university of virginia. For the next 23 years he taught at the university of North Carolina at greensboro. Between 1995 and 1998 he served as associate dean at the college of arts and sciences and between 1998 and 2004 was the head of the history department. He moved to the university of florida to occupy the richard j middleborough chair in history. He teaches courses and supervises the world students. He has published for major books prior to this one. A hard country in a lonely place, Schooling Society and reform in rule of virginia, the paradox of southern progressivism, 18821930. William friday and the american higher education. These last two books for both mayflower cup winners for nonfiction. The roots of succession secession. He lives in gainesville, florida with his wife susanna, daughter josie, and one border collie. Time for me to stop. Leaving more time for the historian and his subject am a senator helms to speak for themselves. Righteous warrior jesse helms and the rise of modern conservatism. Please welcome Professor William link. [applause] william thank you very much. Thank you all for coming and permitting me to Say Something about my new book which just appeared two weeks ago. It is hot off the press. What i thought i would do this evening is talk about the book, and try to focus on the conclusions i reached, particularly on the relevance of jesse helms for 2008. Most of us know something about jesse helms here in North Carolina. He is person of immediate identification that may not be quite so true and the rest of the United States. Certainly here he is a figure who has almost iconic status. He is a person that political leaders who polarized he almost immediately in terms of his thought and action had divided people. To a large extent i think that the polarizing effect of helms has in some respects of securities significance. Obscured his significance. To people on the left, liberals, the progressive side, there has been a tendency to write him off, to see him off as buffoonish and ineffectual. I think weekly to people on the right, people love conservative persuasion there has been among many conservatives the tendency to be slightly embarrassed by jesse helms and his hardnosed tactics. The result has been to obscure jesse helms and he retired in 2002. We are six years out of his political career. To some extent he is at least partially forgotten. I wanted to point to my book as a look back on helms two assesses impact which i argue in the book was significant. I think that it wouldnt be an exaggeration to describe him as one of the Major Political players of the last half of the 20th century and one of the more important north carolinians. He had a wideranging impact on political culture, political life in the way that policy and politics were practiced in the last third of the 20th century into our own time. The conservative revolution, the emergence of a new kind of american right that occurred after the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 were the culmination of a longstanding strategy on the part of jesse helms to change politics in a fundamental way. Most know something about helms. He was born in monroe, North Carolina, grew up the son of a Police Officer who eventually became sheriff of monroe. Smalltown, 23000 people. From an early age he wanted to be a journalist and was fascinated with journalism. In the yearbook of his graduating here in 1938, two things that are of no, the first is he announces his intention to be a leading journalist. The second is that his classmates voted him most of noxious member of the class. Obnoxious member of the class. He attended college for two years and left college after one year at wing get and then plunged into journalism and work for the observer and the raleigh times, the evening newspaper. Then he was in the war, in the navy. After the war got involved in radio broadcasting. Subsequently was actively involved for the rest of his nonpolitical career in radio and television broadcasting. From 1960 to 1972 he was a person who ran tv here in raleigh, has part of the 12 years he provided daily editorials about a range of topics. 1972 he was elected United States senate, and served in the senate for the next 30 years. Five terms in the senate. His career is defined by several things. Most important is his impact in coalescing a new conservatism that we see in this country, beginning in the 1960s. What i would like to do with the time i have is to talk about his Lasting Impact and legacy. The first thing is that he had a Significant Impact on politics between 1972, his first election, that 30 year time. If you look at politics, what politics was life and what politics was life in 2002 you will agree there was a revolution that took place in the way politics was practice. Politics was still fairly personal. Practice on a personal level. It involved local organizations, retail politics was the typical pattern. There wasnt much advertising on television, virtually none. In his campaign, his first one, almost all the advertising was done in newspapers. Little in television. 2002, television is everything. Political advertising is based on heavy use of polling and poll driven media. He was involved in this revolution to take place he wasnt solely responsible for it. I spent a good bit of time talking about this, the Congressional Club, which was organized in 1973 after his first senate campaign. To retire helmsdebt in 1972. And then became successful as his main Political Organization until the mid1990s. A Congressional Club was successful because of its ability to raise huge amounts of money. In the mid70s and 79, the club became a money machine and developed for its day the most sophisticated fundraising operation in the country. It was based on direct mail, fundraising, and depended on a Huge National database of names, once constituted a National Conservative constituency. The vast majority of the contributors to the Congressional Club, and they raised millions, people outside of North Carolina. People who were part of movement conservatives, people dedicated because of things he was dedicated to. That is one noteworthy characteristic. The other is that most of them were small contributors. The average contributor contributed 30. Only 5 of the clubs revenue came from Political Action committees. That is an interesting thing. It provided independence for the club and its ability to run political campaigns without that to pay. The other way in which the clubs revolutionary, i would argue, its use of advertising. Beginning in the 1980s, the Congressional Club becomes very effective at using Television Advertising to run political campaigns. That is new to this era. There is a realization that takes place among his political advisers that the way to win campaigns is to use lots of television campaigning. Advertising, especially negative advertising become the trademark of the way the club operates. By 1980, the extensive use of advertising is remarkable and it is devised inhouse by the Congressional Club, and by the operatives of the Congressional Club. 1984 campaign, 1990 campaign are the two outstanding examples of the use of advertising and negative advertising particular to define candidates win elections. 1984 is a complex election. An election that he ran against jim hunt, a popular incumbent governor. The other thing i mentioned, the key to the success of the Congressional Club and part of this big change taking place is the use of polling. There had been Public Opinion polling used by Political Organizations but the Congressional Club refined into a science and they are able to connect the polling to their advertising and use advertising in precise ways, anyway that is ahead of their adverse iron adversaries of the day. Another way, i would argue jesse helms was instrumental in mobilizing a National Conservative movement in the 1970s and 1980s. The election of Ronald Reagan marked a critical moment in the history of modern conservatism. He was elected to the senate in 1972. Soon after he was elected he began to pound away and work assiduously to put together elements of a conservative coalition. Interesting relationship between jesse helms and Ronald Reagan. Helms had known reagan since the 1960s, soon after reagan was elected to the governorship in 1966. Helms endorsed reagan when he ran for president in the 1970s, 1976 when he challenged gerald ford. The story goes like this. Ronald reagan was about to go down in defeat in 1976. He lost primaries to gerald ford. Reagans operation came in my of 1976 and reagan turned over the operation of the campaign to his people. They won the North Carolina primary of 76. They turned the whole thing around. Although reagan was not nominated in 1976, he became the heir presumptive for 1980 and was set up to be nominated as the republican candidate. Reagan is owed helms his political survival because if he had lost that would have been at, the end of his president ial ambitions. One of the things helms was successful at is defining a National Conservative agenda of issues. He puts together a set of issues that become part of a coalesced conservative movement. The thing that holds the movement together, the message homes was promoting is a common hostility to liberals, to new deal liberalism, and the and more first liberal state that conservatives are revolting against. From 1950s on, he is unyielding anticommunist. We had relations between russia and the soviet union and the United States ease the hardline be maintained. He opposes the detente of the 1970s and the easing of relations and arms control treaties in the 1970s. He supports Ronald Reagan of course. Helms was also an opponent of civil rights and translates that message into a conservative message. He opposes the brown decision of 1954, which the Supreme Court ruled segregated schools for now unconstitutional and illegal. Throughout the 1950s he opposed federal intervention in southern race relations. He was a strong detractor of Martin Luther king. He was a critic of king all through the 60s. One congress attempted to make kings birthday and National Holiday in 1983 he launched a filibuster against the legislation which went nowhere but helped the fine a very clear message. All through the 1960s helms was an anti1960s person. He was suspicious of campus revolt. He was suspicious of the sexual revolution. He was suspicious of the university of North Carolina, unc became a very common whipping boy in tv editorials of the 1960s. Helms promotes a kind of conservative issue of morality. He is particularly in favor of school prayer. He is against the secularization of american life. He is a strong opponent of sexual rights homosexual rights. He is one of the first people to bring the religious right into the fold, prior to the late 1970s the christian evangelical right was largely nonpolitical. Through the efforts of helms and his allies, the religious right was drawn into conservative politics. People like jerry falwell, an ally of helms. He enjoyed the support of the christian evangelicals, especially in the close election of 1984. The christian evangelical right was mobilized and helped him win with governor jim hunt. One of the things that people underestimated about homes is his ability to use the media. He had a longstanding experience in the media. He had radio experience, television experience. He understood how to use media, and make points on television. He was also a master of language, very effective use of language. Helms love to write letters. He constantly wrote letters. He was a master in the use of words. People often dont realize that. His mastery of words was connected to his ability to mobilize sentiment and the National Conservative movement. The thing to remember is he regarded this and as a kind of support to pull together conservative coalition. For the first 20 years of his time in the senate, he had little interest in passing legislation. For the most part he used the senate to dramatize issues. He had a couple of techniques. His favorite were the use of amendments. He would take an obscure appropriation bill, and tacky writer on it, tackle on an amendment that might relate to Something Like school busing, or relate to abortion, or relate to school prayer. Then he would force his colleagues to vote to put them on record and expose the differences between conservatives and liberals on these issues. His fundraisers would use these frequently and direct mail messages to keep the money running. It became a way to promote and nurture a National Conservative movement. He was a master parliamentarian. He sat down and learned the rulebook of the senate. He became one of the best parliamentarians. He now the process work and how to work the senate to his advantage. He was an active partition or in the use of the filibuster. The filibuster was a rarely rare thing before jesse helms. It becomes more common by the time he left the senate. Almost always he lost the filibusters but at the same time he use them to communicate a message and dramatize the message to his constituency. Throughout the first 20 years or so, the Senate Becomes a forum for helms to reach out to a constituency, and bring them together effectively. In a new coalition. It comes together in 1980, and constitutes a majority i would argue that american politics for the next 30 years. It maybe we are in a new era. It seems to me the 2008 elections clearly a major election, which Different Things are going to happen, but if you look back between 1980 and 2008 a constitutes a distinct time in which modern conservative Movement Held sway and tend to dominate politics. The last part of the career involves Foreign Policy. He had always been interested in Foreign Policy from the time he arrived in the senate. In the 1970s he was unqualified in his opposition to the soviet union and soviet empire. He was unqualified in his opposition to fidel castro and the castro style revolution. And preventing the spread of the castro revolution to the rest of latin america. The 1970s and 1980s, he made a conscious decision that it was better to have authoritarian regimes abroad even if they were brutal and oppressive than to have castro style revolutionary nationalism. This led him to support regimes such as the pinochet regime. Those are two examples. Helms was the strongest supporter. This sort of changes, i think. In the 1980s he shifts focus, gradually in central america, his policy in el salvador, and his policy in mexico and panama. Both places he begins to focus on issues such as corruption and drugs. And less on issues of supporting unqualified authoritarian regimes. He opposes incumbent authoritarian regimes because of the fact they are connected with the drug trade and they are fundamentally corrupt, or so he solve them. The interesting thing is he develops a Shadow State Department, a whole network of information and sources that provide him in many cases with the services of the state department. To the shock and horror of the state department, he had long opposed the state department, centrists that existed, there was genuine terror at helms taking over, which she did in 1995. There is a big change in helms that takes place when he moves to the Foreign Relations committee chairmanship. Gone for the most part are the tactics that have been practicing for most of his career. After he focuses on policy. He lays the basis to the Foreign Policy of bush, emphasizes unilateralism, the post cold war policies that rely exclusively on American Power and sovereignty. Helms had a great this date for the united nations, and a mistrust of arms control, and lead efforts to defeat to major armscontrol treaties. The chemical weapons convention, which was adopted, and the comprehensive test ban, which was defeated. In many different ways helms lays the basis for a fundamental foreign change that takes place for better or worst after the election of george bush in 2000. These are elements of the helms legacy. The other thing i would add is a people legacy, scores of people who work for jesse helms through the 30 years he is in the senate, helms is providing a school for policymaking in politics. The Congressional Club trains a generation of people who later work in conservative politics and applies it and other settings. For example, a person running john mccains campaign in 2008, charlie black began with jesse helms and worked in his organization. This is true in other areas as well. It was known widely known that if you work for jesse helms as a staffer on the hill, you would be badly underpaid, because he was tight with money, but that you would gain valuable experience in terms of policy things, especially in the conservative world. There is a legacy of people, a Training Ground that helms provides. Overall, it is the argument that helms was a major figure in change that takes place, this conservative revolution, the emergence of the american right. He is often underestimated and not taken seriously but hopefully if you get anything out of the book of this is the major argument im trying to make. I want to allow enough time for questions. I hope there are questions. I will open. He had such a powerful organization. Do you know, whether any indication he ever considered a run for the presidency . William there was a brief flirtation with the president ial run in 1976 and 1980, in both conventions, 76 and 80. I think for a moment he thought that he might run. There was an effort in 1980 for helms helms ran as a Vice President ial candidate in 1980. Which you really dont do. He got signatures together and registered and filed for the New Hampshire primary as a Vice President ial candidate. They only time that has happened. I think in that, there is a flirtation with the things it was possible he could run for president. And there is a strong sense that there needs to be a conservative alternative here in 1976. Once reagan gets the nomination and captures the spirit of the conservative movement, it is obviously going to be reagan. It is not going to be helms. To have access to the editorials william those videotapes dont exist. There are basically no videotape record of the 27th hundred editorials he did in the 12 years of his career. I think there are two explanations. One is that videotaping in those days, they would routinely retape over videotapes. They were destroyed because there was a fear they would be used it was prime fodder for attack ads. We do have transcripts of all the editorials. I have read all of them. Those are widely available. Chapel hill library has them on record. The justly the Jesse Helms Center has a set of the originals, typed in his own hand. The easiest place is chapel hill. I did live in North Carolina when they were delivered by im told there was a difference between the written word and the spoken word. He had a certain impact when he delivered it, the delivery made a big difference. Have you heard them . You can read in print and it is an entirely different thing that if you see nvidia. In video. Ever number those editorials. My wife would let me listen to them. He was a flagrant racist bigot. He didnt hold back when he gave those editorial commentaries. Of course he was appealing to the troglodytes out there and the leadership of the conservative movement knew that. They just let him rave. It worked for him. Anybody around in those days knows what an outrageous figure he was. William the viewing audience in those days was primarily eastern North Carolina and included chapel hill. This area. It went down east. So his homies were downeys. They loved it. He has a natural base. His ability to use race and communicate, they love that stuff. In chapel hill, people were infuriated. The young people would just shake their physical television. My friend and i would usually eat every day in the cafeteria downtown and after jesse had become senator, he would frequently be in there with the lawyer, and the president of the national u. S. Chamber of commerce. You knew those guys were cooking up something. [laughter] they would come over and just schmooze. They thought he was a wonderful guy. He was the proper gentleman with them. William that was tom ellis, his main political advisor. He tells a story about taking jesse to the cafeteria and the ladies loved him there. That was part of the kc made to get him to try to run. The rankandfile people really had hit a nerve. That is part of the success with the editorials. If you were to create a profile of jesse helms supporters, would it be comparable to who is supporting senator clinton and senator obama, what would it look like in terms of generation, sex, economics . William the place you start is it is overwhelmingly white. Helms never attracted many black voters. That is one of the remarkable things, his utter failure or lack of interest in attracting black voters. He would average Something Like 2 of the black vote, the average republican usually get seven or eight these days. George bush got double digits at one point in 2004. That is where you start. The North Carolina, and interesting state, the state that is made up of divisions. It is modern. You might as well be in berkeley california. 20 miles and you may as well be in alabama. The home country of helms was the traditionalist heartland. Downeys, and in piedmont, North Carolina. The Old Industrial areas. And the other big part of this constituency was his small town following. The smalltown support was very strong. North carolina is a place of cities and small towns. Helms, what makes studying his career interesting is how many people not only liked him but disliked him. Starting from scratch, at any of the five elections, there were going to be 45 of the electorate that probably probably it automatically want to vote against helms. The election often came down to 10 . There is a swing vote he had to attract. In close elections they focused on that 10 . This is a common practice now. In those days it was ahead of its time. They marked out what that 10 is and they knew how to target it. That is what close elections came down to. Yes . Not everybody liked him. Secondly, it seems as though in that group, he cut across socioeconomic lines, unlike clinton or obama today. From farmers all the way up. William right. The class divisions. I think you are probably right about that. His racism was a uniter. William yes. In politics that is how it tends to work. It cut across these lines. Was there any lobbying group that had helms here in washington . William not really. You can say a bunch of things but he was not the creature of any particular special interests. I think that honestly is true. He was consciously revolted any notion he could be lobbied. For most of his political career, unlike today, he is not receiving pack money pac money. Direct mail money is pretty much independent. You can use it anyway you want to. His staffers would always say that if you ever told him he had to do something for a particular reason like there was an interesting yet to represent, or had to do it for political reasons, that was the wrong thing to say. He repelled, recoiled at the suggestion he would do things on that basis. There is a curious kind of mindset that is very genuine on the part of jesse helms. That is in some respects not of this world. He was so principled, and those principles dont change. You take the Civil Rights Act. He is opposed to that in 1964, he describes it as the most dangerous piece of legislation ever passed, he is interviewed in 2000 here in North Carolina and says the same thing. In contrast to most southern white politicians who did oppose the Civil Rights Act, if you wanted to be elected to Political Office anywhere in the south, you had to oppose them. So they all did. Most of them change their minds to read most say that was a mistake. George wallace changes his mind. Strom thurmond changes his mind. Not jesse. He is consistent. He is a naturally consistent in terms of what he identifies as political principles. In that regard, when johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, he is reported to have declared that we have just now delivered the south into the hands of the republican party, and that seems that was jesses home base, white male, southern, North Carolina voters. And the racism that he merged in the support of helms. If you i were him or his documentaries, his editorials. And his actions in congress, demagoguery may be a personal judgment rather than objectivity on the editorial and other evidence. To make a career of a racist and demagogue and then to be elevated almost to sainthood by a baptist college, and by the religious right, etc. , seems a major contradiction. Any observations about your conclusion that he was racist or not, having not one black staff member notwithstanding . William we had to actually. It is interesting, i think there was one of the things that offended helms, any suggestion he was racist. What would it look like if you were . William that is the explanation. There was a disconnect between what he thought was racist and what he thought he was doing. It is hard i think to use that term. It is loaded. That being said, i dont think there was a stronger opponent to the Civil Rights Movement in america than jesse helms. There was not a stronger opponent of federal intervention in a variety of areas of life. White supremacy was not going to weigh going away unless you had. There is a disconnect here. On a personal level, he is simply oldfashioned in terms of race relations. He has the same views on race that are some very small town views in the late 1930s. They dont really change. One reporter i interviewed described him as a person that reminded him of his parents generation in terms of how they relate to black people, which is basically accurate. I think we have to kind of understand race as a central element of what he was doing. That the aftermath of the Civil Rights Act of 64 was extensive, and a lot of what people do in terms of race is politically coded, and remains a powerful force in american politics. Much of his message was based on who he was in defining his Political Group versus what other groups were. The other ring othering that took place. Sexuality, too. He is part and parcel of the republican revolution. He is elected republican senator and part of this shift taking place. He is riding the backlash that has taken place in the aftermath of the Civil Rights Act of 64. I want to know about what is the action towards apartheid in south africa, and did he feel at home with the apartheid laws and segregation . William i didnt talk about africa at all. I was talking mostly about latin america but black africa is a major part of his Foreign Policy in the 1970s. He is a supporter of white minority regimes. The leading supporter of white regimes. He supports smith down to the last gasp. He supports the South African apartheid regime. What happens in the 80s is there is this growing moved to isolate south africa. The white minority regimes through sanctions. He fisa to the nail and he is the leading opponent of that. On one level it is anticommunism hes opposing black liberation movements in africa as a way to supposedly limit communist in africa. There is a racial component certainly. It along with latin america are the big Foreign Policy. Helms is not interested in europe. He is most interested in africa and latin america. A great question. That is important part of his Foreign Policy. Did you consult senator helms or members of his staff, and if so how helpful were they, and if not, why . William i did not interview senator helms. The time i start working on this book he suffered from dementia and was not giving interviews. When i initially requested an interview i was turned down. I did not interview senator helms. The time i start working on this book he suffered from dementia and was not giving interviews. When i initially requested an interview i was turned down. I thought it was something personal but it turned out it became effectively, he was not giving interviews at all i had access to all the interviews done with him, news paper interviews and oral history interviews. Those of invaluable. I have interviewed a lot of his staffers. Most were cooperative. Some didnt want to be interviewed. A large portion did. Very help all. Very helpful. The book depends on their cooperation. For the most part they did cooperate. Effectively a think you want to talk to somebody doing a book about you, you want to talk to them. Interesting array of people, ray of backgrounds, doing all sorts of things. He has a huge volume of personal papers that are housed in his library. He did not destroy things. The collection is an sanitized. It is one of the more remarkable collections of a political figure. He was a compulsive letter writer. He wrote loads and loads of people, and up until the latter part of this in a career he was riding 80 or 90 letters a week. When he did the viewpoint editorials he had lots of love from people in North Carolina and lots of hostility at chapel hill. He wrote them all back. He was sort of engage them. Another thing is he is constantly talking. They were still fail to come from helms. He is constantly generating words. How do you contain all the stuff that he is talking about and doing . What was his connection with bono . William bono had it is an interesting thing that happens. At the end of his career in 2001, bono is able to engineer a meeting with helms in the senate office. Bono is trying to organize a campaign to relieve the massive debt that african countries owed to the west. Later on he becomes interested in aids in africa. Bono is a rock star, part of the group you to u2 but he is also very biblical. Helms became converted to supporting bonos efforts to relieve debt and aids in africa. Here is a change that takes place. This is a person who has been an black africa, a symbol of a hotspot for helms that changes. With aids in africa becomes focused on the imperative of saving children in africa. He doesnt change his views on aids and homosexuals. That is often misunderstood. The Strong Language he used with regard to gay people, that didnt change. That was not needed at all. The group may know, it refers to two wake county women drawn together by a common tragedy, each having a son who died of aids. They contacted helms to support aids research and his reply was i am sorry, your sons got exactly what they deserved, and out of their outrage they formed magic, mothers against jesse in congress, and managed to wound him but not terminally, unfortunately. Was that an Effective Organization or a minor blip on the scene. William that relates to the act of 1995, what she was riding in regard to. She lost her son to aids. Her husband was a supporter of helms. She had been a supporter of helms. A very inappropriate letter that helms wrote back to her, which basically said, and this was his line, they gave people were at were atgay people fault. Aids came about as result of gods judgment of the perverted behavior gave people were engaged in. The answer is i dont think they had much effect. The 96 election, the second harvey get campaign. It wasnt very close. William i talk about that in the book. Thank you for bringing that up. Could you talk about the famous Andrew Marvin l controversy and his involvement in that . William sure. I have a long description of that. 1966. That, it is a complicated case that it is part of it is part of helms consistent beating up on the university of North Carolina through the 1960s. It became a symbol of everything that was wrong. The things that he often trumpeted to his audience were begin with that it was subversive, and that it was sexually liberal. They bring that together in a fictitious sort of way. What happens in 1966, and english graduate student is teaching a class and he finds the famous poem, to microwave mistress to my coy mistress. This gets translated into a version which paul was asking his students to write about seduction. Helms writes five viewpoint editorials. Michael paul, a person who is a sweet guy, traumatized by this. Absolutely horrified. He wasnt asking his students to write about seduction. It became a huge controversy and the University Backed off and removed him from the classroom. They cave den to this attack on the university. He brought back into the classroom, he is restored but only after look magazine has made a big case of it. Cbs tv covers it. Canadian broadcasting covers it. The interesting thing is the way he brings together these elements, they are of communism, fear of civil rights, fear of sexuality all come together in one case. But, in 1980, the case comes up again with ed yoder who wrote for washington star. He revived the case. Helms wrote a letter responding in which he recreated things that were totally no relation to reality. This whole recreation. That to me tells me a lot about how his mind worked. He had his own version of reality and reality didnt correspond to what we know was the case. A complicated case. It is fascinating. Interviewing paul was who now works for the city of the university of new york in new york city, i sent him a copy of the book actually. Have you received any reaction from his staffers about the book, or have they had time to read it . William i got email from one who said he would email. Im still waiting. On the helms Center Website it was posted recently that this was a biography that has appeared and exhibited liberal bias. [laughter] if you want to know more about what his story is like you should read his memoirs. I read those. They seem like he might have had a memory problem at the time. Did you read it . Did you agree with that . William what i agree with your assessment . Yes. There not very good. With all due respect, they are not a good example of political memoirs. There is not much in the book. If they want to find out about jesse comes they are not going to find out very much read i havent heard from other stuff. It is interesting. You get to know people and wonder how they are reacting. I am sure i will here at some point. Hear at some point. You are sure evenhanded. William i try to be. It was reviewed in the wall street journal a couple weeks ago. They described it as a fairminded book written by a selfconfessed political liberal. Im not sure i ever really say. Does the club still exist . William it doesnt. There was a split that took place and they divorce each other. A complicated story, an interesting story. It continues for a couple of years after the divorce. Helms was their bread and butter. When he was separated from the club the money dries up. Between 1973 and 1974 they have this marriage that was described as a marriage that has problems, where there is fighting going on, and ends in divorce, and that is what happens in 1994. For reasons that are complicated you have to read the book to find out. Did you find it ironic that you are now the preeminent biographer of him, the preeminent by referral of woodrow wilson, and given their probably fairly similar used on race. You could argue that. I think they are very different. The book is from an entirely different period. I understand it may be years apart. William my dad said, basically a sickly 45 spent years of his life on woodrow wilson. Spend 45 years of my life on jesse helms. Can you talk about the early years and injecting race into that . William it is hard to tell if he is the mastermind in the primary campaign of 1950. There is a first primary and a second primary. A lot of nasty stuff happened that focused on race in which uper racial sex was brought and all kinds of fears were exaggerated. People on the left thought holmes was the architect of that. He was clearly involved in the campaign. He was working for wral radio at that point, and he was lent by fletcher to the campaign. According to ernest fergusons book, published in 1986, on jesse helms. One person found that helms was said to be doctoring photos that were used in handbills, some of the most controversial of which have not survived. I dont think the evidence is very conclusive. He was a young guy. He was 29 years old. Its hard to say. There was a lot of stuff going on at a distance between smith and the leaders of the campaign, and the people below, sort of a plausible deniability, but the thing i got out of 1950 is, this is a huge event in the history of jesse helms. This is when he becomes a conservative. Before 1950, theres a moment where he flirts with graham and car smith. He knew frank porter graham, and graham apparently tried to get him to work in his campaign. There is a moment where he mightve gone either way, and he decides to be decisively defined as a conservative ideologue. That is something you hear again and again. Its impossible to determine with absolute certainty what was going on. My sense it is something exaggerated, at least the nasty stuff. Given his background in the 1970s and 1980s, what do you think let him to be interested in Foreign Relations when he had opportunities to be in other leadership positions in the senate . When you look at his earlier years, you dont really see anything that would lead him to be a Foreign Policy leader. What in his philosophy led him to choose that path . William the big thing about helms, he is a strong anticommunist, and that is what is driving that is the overarching philosophy that drives him in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s. That draws him into Foreign Policy, in the underdeveloped world, latin america and africa. He has this interest in Foreign Policy. The other reason might be because hes got this apparatus that he builds up, a kind of Shadow State Department that he builds up, which is attracting attention, attracts funding, becomes a source of power itself. Thats good for the ego. Hes getting more and more attention. The thing that helms starts out with, the Senate Agriculture committee, hes serving the people of North Carolina, the tobacco interests. He is advised by tom ellis one of the first pieces of advice he gets when he is elected is, you are going to have to wake up every morning chewing a stock of tobacco. That is going to have to be your primary political interest. Hes on the agriculture committee, but its a deadly dull committee. It really is. He has to defend the tobacco program, but its not something you want to do for 30 years. Foreign relations is much sexier. He gets increasingly drawn into it. In 1987, he becomes the ranking member. He is in line for the chairmanship after 1987, and youve got more staff, much more media attention. The whole thing is much more attractive than being chairman of the agriculture committee. In your book, did you discuss his family, his upbringing, his childhood, and how that influenced his opinions . William i do. I talk about his family and his upbringing in munro. In an earlier vision of the book, i had more, but i had to reduce. I have periodic discussions with his family later on, but its mostly a book about his family life. That is mostly what i am interested in later. Certainly, his childhood is a stencil and understanding the man, growing up in a small town, obstensible in understanding the man, growing up in a small town. That is where i really focus on family and background. Shall we have one more, folks . One more . Did you scare everybody off . Did you have an opportunity to speak with jim hunt about this . Did jesse helms and jim hunt have any significant relationship after 1984 . William jim hunt wouldnt talk to me, which is sort of interesting. I did try repeatedly to get jim hunt to do an interview, but he is sort of interviewshy typically. There havent been a whole lot of oral history interviews done of him. My sense is, and im reading the situation, that the 1984 campaign was a painful experience. The whole premise of the 1984 campaign was helms political managers tore down jim hunt, and the basic strategy was, they realize the only way they could win was raise the negative ratings of jim hunt to the level jesse helms had. This incredible barrage of advertising does that, but its not a pleasant thing to experience. There were very hard feelings, i think. However, hunt is subsequently elected to two more terms as governor of North Carolina. They developed a cordial working relationship in the 1990s, and im not sure to what extent the feelings were mutual, but there was a degree of may be between was a degree of may be affection between the two people. Was there another person you asked about . He labeled him as a flip flopper. William where do you stand, jim . That was the whole premise of the campaign. Thank you. Thank you very much. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] books are available at the register, folks. The our guest. Be our guest. [indiscernible conversations] Abigail Fillmore was the first first lady to work outside the home, teaching at a private school. She lobbied for funds to create the first library. May me eisenhowers love of pink created may me pink and click on bangs. Nancy reagan saw her name to stay can only saw her name mistakenly a list of communist in 1940. Ers she appealed to Ronald Reagan for help. She later became his wife. This is in first ladies, the lives of 45 iconic american women. It makes a great gift for the holidays. A look at the personal lives of every person laid he in history. Ascertaining women, and how legacy resonates. 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