Chief for nbc news, former editor of newsweek, and an author as well. His newest book is called saying it loud 1966the year black power challenged the Civil Rights Movement. Mr. Whitaker,mportant about the year 1966 . It is a year when, after a decade of a Civil Rights Movement that people have associated with Martin Luther king and had been focused on the fight against discrimination, jim crow, Voting Rights and so forth that we all remember, there was this young generation of blacks who rose up to question a lot of the goals and also the tactics. It was a year that Stokely Carmichael took over the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee from john lewis, the great civil rights icon. It was the year the black panthers were formed in oakland, california. It was also the year when a lot of young black folks said we dont want to be called negros anymore, started wearing afros, the dashikis, and the firstyear kwanzaa was celebrated. Why the phrase black power become en vogue . The phrase in the phrase itself had been popularized by carmichael in a march across mississippi called the narrative march. It was sort of the sequel to the soma march of 1965. And in the middle of this march at a latenight rally, he had been thrown in jail by the local cops for setting up a tent for the marchers to sleep. He gets out of jail and theres a field full of people who had been on the march and young black people and he stood up and said we have been talking now for a decade about freedom now. We have to Start Talking about black power. All of a sudden, this crowd heard this chant, black power, and started yelling, black power. And it went back and forth. The story got reported by the Associated Press the next day, picked up by 200 newspapers across the country, and all of a sudden, everybody started talking about this slogan, and actually, not a lot of people have understood what it meant. We can talk about what Stokely Carmichael meant, but to a lot of white people, it sounded scary. We will come back to stokely in a second, but in your view, was black power an antecedent of black lives matter . Absolutely. One of the reasons i was interested in writing the story so i began reporting the story, the book, about six years ago. And it was right after the first wave of black lives matter protests and ferguson, missouri protests in ferguson, missouri and elsewhere. I looked at this and said, heres a movement led by young people in the streets challenging a lot of the kind of older civil rights leaders, all focused around this slogan, this new slogan, black lives matter. That sounds familiar, so i thought that going back and looking at black power might help explain this new movement and perhaps offer some lessons as well. By 1966, Martin Luther king is a household name. Stokely carmichael not so much. Left so. Yeah. Stokely carmichael had been born in the caribbean, in trinidad, had moved to the United States at 11, grew up in new york city, went to a White High School there, went to howard university. Thats where he got involved in activism. He was a charming, handsome, charismatic, humorous guy. Who, until 1966, had risen up through snic and become the field organizer, organizing poor black folks to register to vote in mississippi and then in alabama. That was the focus of snic before he took over, but once he became the chairman, and theres a whole chapter in the book about this chaotic retreat and nightlongboat and, you know, with lots of argument and acrimony that led to his winning the vote to take over from john lewis, which crushed john lewis, by the way, for a long time, stokely all of a sudden became much more public, much more militant, and sort of a lightning rod in a way that the leaders of snic had never been before. What did john lewis do after losing that vote . Did he form a new organization . What was the relationship . So john lewis, you know, he had grown up as a sharecropper in alabama, very poor, had gotten involved with activism through the sit in movement in nashville, tennessee and the lunch counter where they would go and desegregate lunch counters. He was a freedom rider. He had been savagely beaten several times during the freedom rides. Then he became the head of snic just before the march on washington and we all know that, in 1965, trying to cross the Edmund Pettus bridge in selma, alabama, he was almost beaten to death. That turned him into a national figure. He was being invited to the white house, was invited into the pantheon of black leaders, and all of a sudden, he arrives at this retreat in a place outside nashville in the spring of 1966 expecting to be elected to the chairmanship of sncc and there is this revolt against his leadership, which, again, ends after a night long argument and two votes with his being removed, and it crushed him. Sncc was his entire identity at that point. He did not know what he was going to do after. It took him almost two decades to recover. We remember him as the congressman and kind of the conscience of the congress and so forth, but he didnt win that seat in congress until the 80s, almost 20 years later, and in the interim, he really was kind of in the wilderness. Before we go any farther, we want to get the phone lines up. This is a call in program with mark whitaker, newest book, saying it loud 1966the year black power challenged the Civil Rights Movement. 202 is the area code. 7488200 east and central time zones, 7488201 mountain and pacific. You can send a text message at 2027488903. Those are for Text Messages only. Include your first name and city if you would. 1966 is the year following malcolm xs assassination. What was the effect of that assassination on the Civil Rights Movement . It is interesting because, when i decided i was going to focus specifically on 1966 and told people what i was doing, some people who did not room for the dates would say, well, malcolm x did not remember the dates would say, well, malcolm x, right . He was assassinated in 1965. I did not expect him to be a huge figure but in fact he was in the book, because all these leaders of the black Power Movement that emerged in 1966 all looked up to him. They thought they were carrying on what he had started. He had inspired them. It is not at all clear that their interpretation of malcolm x was correct. And i end the book by saying that i think that, you know, you never know, but had he survived, i think he might have provided a level of mature leadership, certainly charismatic leadership, to the movement that, for all of their strengths, i think some of these younger leaders did not ultimately have in the same way. Martin luther king kind of the establishment civil rights leader. What was his relationship with the black panthers, the black Power Movement, and did it change his focus . Its an interesting question. The other thing that happened in 1966 as Martin Luther king tried to take his version of the Civil Rights Movement north to chicago with a new focus on housing, fair housing rights. And actually, to quite a violent response. You know, white residents of chicago turned out by the thousands in the streets of chicago to heckle him, throw rocks. He was hit in the head by a rock and so forth. Ultimately, he had to retreat from chicago without actually having accomplished that bunch. So when effect so one affective that was to raise even more questions among this more militant Younger Generation about how effective his approach was going to be. Now, he was pretrade in the press as he was portrayed in the press as being very critical of black power. He was actually more sympathetic than the press understood at the time to the sentiment behind it. He understood the frustration about the lack of progress and so forth that a lot of these young people were feeling, but he also thought that the term black power could easily be misinterpreted, particularly by whites and by the white press, and he was correct in that. So he was really trying to walk a very thin line that whole year between expressing doubts and concerns about the slogan and what it stood for but without pushing out or alienating the Younger Generation. What were the black panthers doing in oakland in 1966 . This happened in the fall of 1966. He we knew wooden and bobby seal qe huey newton and bobby seale had been involved with campus more middleclass campus activists but became disillusioned and decided they wanted to form a new organization focused on conditions for black people in the inner city in oakland, particularly with dealing with the police. So people remember the leather jackets, the berets, the guns, but their initial project before things got pretty, you know, crazy in terms of what they were calling for was to essentially establish civilian patrols of the police and to follow ride around town, look for situations in which predominantly or almost exclusively white police were interacting with people in the community, and stand at a remove, not try to confront them, but just so the policemen could see that someone is watching them. And, you know, again, because they were carrying guns and so forth, he kind of blew up into a lot of very dramatic confrontations over time, but initially, when you think about that idea, you know, why do we know you asked earlier about black lives matter why do we know all about these horrific incidents that keep happening today . Its because of cell, police body cams. That technology did not exist at the time. So essentially they were at least initially trying to be a kind of human civilian version of that. When we look at this as a political movement, you have Martin Luther king, establishment, wellknown, and then you have the subversive element taking over. I mean, we can kind of compare that to what happens in the Democratic Party or Republican Party from time to time. Is that a fair analogy . A little bit. I think there are always new, more militant voices that arise, but the other thing i write about in the book, and which is directly connected to that, which is, as soon as possible Rights Movement takes this more militant turn, where theres talk of that in the press, you see a backlight, a political backlight a backlash, a political backlash, and that shows up in pulling, where theres less support for the Civil Rights Movement, and you have the Midterm Election in 1966 where Ronald Reagan gets elected governor of california for the first time. The republicans, who had been left for dead after the Goldwater Campaign of 1964, pickup dozens of seats in the house of representatives, a number of statehouses. They start to make the comeback that leads to Richard Nixons election in 1968. So, again, talking about what are the analogies today, no sooner had you seen the rise of the black lives Matter Movement , you know, in the last decade culminating in the, you know, nationwide marches and protests after the murder of george floyd in 2020, when we are now living with, you know, a severe backlash against all of that, when you look at, you know, what is happening in florida with, you know, trying to with book banning around the country in florida and elsewhere, criticism of black studies, so another lesson, as we look at the dynamics of this, over and over again throughout our history, is that, every time you see a more aggressive, more militant tone in terms of activism, you also see its almost like clockwork that you will get a political backlash against that. Mark whitaker, you are a graduate of harvard. In 1966, you were nine years old. Do you have memories of that time . My first memories are of 1968, watching the war on tv, the assassination of Martin Luther king. I was just coming into political consciousness at that time. My parents had gotten divorced. I was living with my mother and brother in outside of boston, where my mother taught college, and i think we got our first tv in 1966 or 1967, so i started watching the news on tv, and, you know, like you, it was really the summer of 1968, starting with kings assassination. Remember i remember my mother rushing in to tell us it was on the news. We turned on the tv and it felt like we kept the tv on the entire summer with, you know, the assassination of bobby kennedy, the Democratic Convention in chicago and so forth, but so, you know, i was starting to be aware of politics, but my first real exposure to black power came when my father, who had dropped out of our lives after my parents got divorced when i was six years old, a year later, in 1969, resurfaced. He had been living out here and teaching here in california, in los angeles. He had took a job as the first head of African Americans studies at Princeton University africanamerican studies at Princeton University, where he got his doctorate includable science. He was back in my life at 11 years old and he had grown an afro and he teaches me the black power handshake. I had no idea that i would eventually write a book about the birth of black power but i think that question of what is this all about, why does he seem to have a new sense of himself as a black man, where did that come from . A text message from april in attleboro, massachusetts. Right next to where i used to live. Which is . Norton, massachusetts. My mother taught at wheaton college. I think if i had been there i would have been with the Civil Rights Movement. I did not really agree with black Power Movement. I think it was important there were two movements. It showed we are not a monolith. We are complex, just like anyone else. I think that is wise. And honestly, there was controversy about black power within the black community at the time. Dr. King, all the polling data shows he continued to be he most be the most popular black leader in black america throughout this entire period, but the other thing i write about in the book, beyond the politics, which got very complicated and controversial, misunderstood but also, you know, there were a lot of mistakes that were made, was the black consciousness that emerged in 1966. And again, this whole issue of black pride, interest in black history, it was the beginning of the push for black studies on college campuses. It was the beginning of, like, this new sense of how to present yourself as being black. And that, you know, honestly i think was a very positive development and a very profound one and one that, you know, we still take for granted almost, you know, among black americans today, but really only started there. Until then, there was a sense that, in order to sort of make it in america, you had to dress black white. You had to act white. A lot of black institutions were sort of black versions of white institutions. And, you know, black power said, the cultural side of black power said, no, no, no. We can be americans, want a lot of things professionally and in terms of Voting Rights and so forth that all americans want, but we can also celebrate our own culture. Lets hear from a caller from lexington, mississippi. Hello. You are on book tv. Thank you very much. I am living in mississippi in one of the poorest counties in the United States of america. Going back in time and coming forward 30 years, the essential issue narrows down to fairness. I am an example myself. I grew up in india, came to america. I apologize. We are going to leave it there. We will cut you off there. Did you hear anything you wanted to respond to . He said he was living in mississippi, rural mississippi, and that is really where, you know, it was conditions in rural mississippi that in many ways gave rise to this call for black power. Sncc had been organized and had a violent reaction and one of the things they were saying in 1966 was, ok, we got the vote, but it turns out that is not enough, just to have Voting Rights, because in places like mississippi and alabama, the only people to vote for worst segregationist democrats. So they started to say we have to organize and in alabama tried to form their own Political Party with a symbol that was the black panther. That is where the symbol initially came from but to elect their own candidates to office. And when you think about what later started to happen pretty quickly with the election of black mayors in cities with large black populations, the congressional black caucus, all of that, the idea that you dont want just Voting Rights. You need voting power. That was one of the things they were talking about initially with black power. One of the other things i heard from the caller was a 30 dropout rate in mississippi. I do not think he divided it by race or anything, but he was pretty surprised and astounded by that. And one of the things i think is very sad today is that, even with and again, this is almost 60 years ago that, you know, with all of the progress that weve made, you know, certainly in terms of representation of blacks, you know, throughout our political system and, you know, not only at the National Level but throughout the south, you know, that it has not really led to an improvement in conditions for a lot of black people, and we can talk about the reasons for that, but it shows that, you know, the solutions go well beyond slogans or, you know, or even protests, that they are more structural, ultimately. Lets hear from alice in baltimore. Alice, you are on with author mark whitaker. Good afternoon. In 1967, i moved to new york, and walking down 7th avenue, who did i see but wrap brad brown. Im wondering if you did any resource or found any information on him in the book he did. I did. I talk about him in the epilogue come at the very end of the book epilogue, at the very end of the book, when he took over sncc in 1967, when you saw from Stokely Carmichael that he moved. He stood for a lot of the same things that stokely stood for but did not have although he became increasingly militant, he was also very charming and charismatic. Rap brown was very provocative, but without a lot of the light touch and the charm in dealing with the press and the white power structure, but the other thing rap brown had to confront is that it was really so the fbi had a Surveillance Program directed at dr. King and at malcolm x going back to the early 1960s, but in 1967, it was stepped up dramatically, and there was really it was called the Cointel Program directed specifically at these more militant black groups, at sncc, now run by h. Rap brown at the panthers, and they were actively trying to subvert everything those leaders were doing, and so rap brown was in it with the authorities, the fbi and the police, from almost the very beginning of his tenure as the head of sncc and was not able, whatever you think about what he was trying to achieve, it was very much hamstrung by the degree to which he was being deliberately undermined by the fbi and other Law Enforcement groups. We are talking to mark whitaker, whose most recent book is called saying it loud 1966the year black power challenged the Civil Rights Movement. Hes written three previous books, smoketown the untold story of the other great black renaissance, which is about pittsburgh, correct . And cosby his life and times and my long trip home, a family memoir. When did your cosby book come out in relation to when bill cosby started appearing in the news for the wrong reasons . Well, it was just before that all really happened. Were you surprised . I was surprised by the degree of it. You know, i had written in my book about, you know, a lot of his cheating on his wife and sort of what he would get up to on the road. The drugging stuff, there had been some allegations, but i had no idea that it was as widespread as it was. Did you talk to you for that book . He did, but not after everything broke. He was not happy even about what i wrote, the critical stuff i wrote about that part of his life. I had not really set out to write about his private life but it was deeply disappointing. In saying it loud, what was one of the favorite interviews he did . So i got to interview there were people who people who have studied the Civil Rights Movement will know the name bob moses, an organizer for sncc. Grew up in new york city and got interested in the Civil Rights Movement when he read about the lunch counter sit ins in the early 1960s, went down south to see how he could help, and got recruited by a woman named ella baker, who was the godmother kind of sncc, the woman who encouraged them to form their own organization, and he was one of the first recruits to sncc, and he went down in 1962, 1963. Again, we are talking about mississippi, to the poorest, most violent parts of mississippi, to start organizing black folks to vote and became sort of a legend for his prowess as an organizer but also his physical courage and his ability to stand up to the klan and go to prison and so forth, but he was also very selfeffacing. You have probably heard of freedom summer, which is when sncc tried to bring more than 1000 black and white students into mississippi in the summer of 1964 to register black folks to vote, to teach young black children, eventually to help take a delegation of newly registered blacks to the Democratic Convention in Atlantic City in 1964, to get them seated. Bob moses was the mastermind of all that. And so was then very uncomfortable with being in the limelight. And so in early 1965, he stepped back. He changed his name. He said i dont want to be called bob moses anymore. His middle name was paris. He said i am now bob paris. He quit sncc. Eventually he got a draft notice. He was in his 30s, so it was clearly deliberately targeted with that, and so he escaped to canada, lived in canada for a while, then africa. He later came back and devoted his life to teaching black kids math in high school because he was originally a math teacher. But he was sort of the antithesis of Stokely Carmichael in the sense of someone who did not want the attention. Anyway, he passed away in the middle of writing my book, but i was able to interview him before that, and that was a great honor. Wayne, medford, oregon. You have 30 seconds. Go ahead, wayne. Hey, mark. Could you give us a short, concise definition of black power and also, beyond equality of the law, the agenda they had . And could you talk about the reverse discrimination which has resulted from equality under the law . We got it, wayne. Mark, you have 30 seconds to answer a big question. Initially, and again, i think i got misinterpreted think it got misinterpreted, but initially it stood for black political power, not just registering but organizing black candidates, for black selfdefense, that we will not be unconditionally nonviolent. We reserve the right to actually defend ourselves when attacked. And it stood for this cultural element of black pride and identity and history. Mark whitaker is our guest, former cnn managing editor, former editor of newsweek, former bureau chief for nbc news. Saying it loud 1966the year black power challenged the Civil Rights Movement is the name of the book. Thank you for being on book tv. Thank you for having me. Our live coverage of the Los Angeles Times book festival continues now. Next author panel is a