my name is mary helen speck. i teach writing at saint edward's university in austin, and i'm honored. introduce becca andrews, an investigative journalist who writes about reproductive justice, religion and inequality. her work has appeared in mother jones, wired the new republic and jezebel, among other publications. she's a graduate of middle tennessee state university and uc berkeley's graduate school of journalism. she grew up in rural west tennessee, now lives in nashville. leslie jamison called her book no choice, just out a few weeks ago. powerful, necessary, required reading for the terrifying poster reality in which we find ourselves. emily rapp black wrote that the book is filled with brave reporting, beautiful writing and, an insistence to tell the truth about the war on women. this is a book about reproductive, about inequality, about abortion in the united states and beyond. and here we are, steps away from the capital in a state that plays a not insignificant role in the story and. the book also talks about wendy davis who just steps over in 2013 and her now famous pink running shoes, filibustered for more than a hours on this topic. no choice was originally to be released in january to coincide with the 50th anniversary of roe v wade. but when it became clear the supreme court intended to overturn the ruling, the book was fast tracked and came out in october. i have found that reading this book has been enlightening and enraging and also really moving. at one point, a midwife tells a patient did you really think it was so easy to a woman? and this book truly to that. becca, can you start us off telling us how this book came about, how you how you came about becoming a reproductive rights journalist? and then what you decide to write no choice, right? throwing it back. hey, it's so nice to be here. thank you so much for having me. i yeah. so i came to reproductive justice as a fact checker. mother jones. i fact checked a story about texas, actually. and hb2, which closed down more than half the clinics here in texas. so i sort of just fell in love with the beat. and i had been thinking a lot. gender inequality and sexuality particularly because of where i come and the ways that my life was changing. moving from middle tennessee to the bay area. yeah. and just sort of carved out that space for myself at mother. the book came about by there is this that i did. it was a cover story for mother jones and i followed a young woman who was a graduate, university of mississippi, and she was going back and forth from oxford mississippi to little rock, arkansas, to try to get an abortion. it was arduous. it was a really intense journey. and i'm so grateful that i got to be there for her story. but i spent time with her. i spent time with the activists in jackson, mississippi, who were helping her get care. and it's one of those stories that i kind of had to fight to do. it came together at the very last. i had to argue with my editor putting me on a plane. but i felt very, very strongly about the story. and i think in writing it, i also felt strongly about representing the story correctly and accurately. and i, with the appropriate amount of emotion so then an editor at hachette saw the story and, asked me if i wanted to write a book and i'm sort of the luckiest person ever i guess that's i'm going to be asking back some questions and then we will have time at the end for audience. so you can be thinking if you have any any burning questions for for becca, we are looking for questions and comments them. so i learned a lot from reading this book. i was fascinated, for example, learn how far back in history we have evidence of induced abortion, including potentially instruments at pompeii? yeah. and you also talk in this book that you say it's no coincidence. that abortion became heavily scrutinized and regulated in the 19th century and escalated in the 20th. can you talk a little bit the kind of relationship kind of historical relationship between power and abortion access? yeah, so a lot this was for economic reasons as the medical industry became more professionalized, doctors felt like they could make more money by doing midwifery themselves and sort of pushing out midwives and and painting them as as unprofessional, dirty and inexperienced, which wasn't the case. community based care was very effective, particularly you had these midwives who have been serving their communities for generations they really knew the people that they were working with. but as medicine became sanitized and mean that literally, but also figuratively, women were really pushed out of doing that work and as a result, abortion became more and more taboo because men were uncomfortable with it. so you see, throughout time the ways that men realized that there is power in being able to dictate what can and cannot to a woman's body. yeah. and speaking of the kind of the medical industry there's, also things like the church amendments which kind of affected medical care. can talk a bit about about that. i also hadn't really realized that when i read your book. yeah. so there are a lot of really upsetting things about the medical and abortion. the church amendments basically allow anyone to opt out of providing abortion training as part residency, as part of o'bagy line training, which is crazy. so abortion is the same thing as miscarriage management. abortion is the medical term for what happens when someone is miscarried and a doctor has to go in and help the process along. so to not provide abortion care is also to not provide a whole miscarriage management. but we have all these things built into laws that give people an out based on morality. but there hasn't been a lot of interrogation. why that is and whose morality we're talking about and how stigma influences that. so, i mean, that that how it affects the lives of the women on the table. 100% that abortion stigma so baked into our medical systems is really really upsetting. it was really sobering for me writing the book. so the beginning of the book talks a lot about kind of the pre roe period and a lot of really interesting stories of activist sites, you know, talking about the list. and jane think that actually a movie that's just came out called can't call jane i haven't seen it i think it literally came out a couple days ago i recommend both called call jane which is based on the an organization that you talk about in the book as well that was helping women get care before before roe and a surprise to me and other organization that i hadn't heard of the clergy consultation. i think a lot of us kind of usually think of of religion or certain certain types of religion in america as being big forces against abortion access. but that really wasn't always the case. no. how did you how did you stumble upon that kind of thread in the book? and can you tell us a bit about it? not going to get me up to my pulpit here. so, yeah, the clergy consultation service was this incredible group of faith leaders who helped women abortion care before roe. and i think what i love most about this story is that it challenged our assumptions about religion in america even today. so i think a lot of us tend to equate religious life in america, evangelicalism, which is extremely anti-abortion. but that's such a narrow of what religion looks like in such a narrow of what faith can look like in people's. i found clergy consultation service to be very challenging in that way. i also talked to many who are currently working in abortion care who. do it out of a place of faith who are doing it because they have been called to serve the least the lost. and i just those those were some of the stories that that really, really resonated with me that i hold very close to. you talk about in the book how approximately one in four women will have an abortion in their life. but you also talk in the book about how even roe, there are so many states, even before before before roe was overturned, where abortion was so that it was almost like it was a legal. so how how why why was that? how did that come to pass? a lot of people felt like when roe happened, this was like big a big opening, but it didn't open the same everywhere for all kinds of women. and there's a lot of inequality you discuss in your book in terms of that access. and i would love to to talk a little bit about about that. you know, roe was not a perfect period for a lot of women and a of places in terms of abortion, access. yeah. so there there are a couple of things there. one being that, yes, the roe wade ruling was imperfect. i, i certainly feel and justice ginsburg expressed as well that because the right to abortion was rooted in the right to privacy. it still wasn't recognizing the autonomy of people who can get pregnant in this country. it wasn't recognizing reproductive autonomy, a sacred human right, which it is. so there's that and then going back to what you were asking about with the the states. it's funny, when i was conceiving of the book, i called them post-arrest edits and that became an actual like legal designation. so that was a fun twist. but yeah, so states in the south mean pregnant people in texas have really been on the front of this. texas has one of the most restrictive legislatures in the country and has been a long time. essentially what happened is that anti-choice started thinking of legislative ways to curb access to abortion. that really started with laws. so that's targeted regulation of abortion providers. and it was ways to impose really restrictive, burdensome restrictions on clinics in an effort to put them out of business in texas. worked very well. like i said earlier, more than half the clinics here closed. i think that was in 2015. and so there's a playbook that conservative state legislators have been operating off off of for a long time. and that's before we even get to the inequality of being a person in america. right where. we know the medical system does treat black women for example the same way it does white women. there are all of these structural inequalities that we also have to contend with when we're talking about who has had access, abortion, who hasn't. yeah, and i'm glad you brought up ruth bader ginsburg and her kind of famous comments about about roe and maybe this is not maybe this is too big of a question. i think if we were to take a time machine, go back, would there have been a better framework, better than roe that would have maybe gotten us in different place? if you had the magic power, what would you have in 1973 instead? oh, god. that's too much power for me. yeah i don't know. i mean, history sort of works out the way that it works out, and it's hard to look back like that, especially given the makeup of the court at the time. so i think it just happened the way it had to happen. but think what's interesting about this moment now that we can see flaws in the roe ruling and we can about how to move forward and how to build something better. so since you work in this field as a journalist, were you surprised when was overturned or did you see it coming? you know, i think a lot of i feel like a lot of us that were born the post roe just kind had always been fed the kind of the kind lie that that it was and that surely that wouldn't get overturned like a lot would have to happen. that would happen. and, and so i think there was a lot of surprise. maybe there shouldn't have been, but how about for somebody like you who's kind of been in the trenches kind of talking to for four years about this? yeah, it's been sort of a longer view for me just because i've been so in it when i first proposed the book, i really thought that the justices would chip away at roe and they wouldn't overturn it outright. i felt like justice roberts would care about his legacy and be very protective of that, and that would sort of keep them from wholesale overturning such a crucial precedent. i was wrong. i knew that i was wrong when i was at the supreme court listening to oral arguments. the justices on the bench were very forthright. their intent to overturn roe. and it was very clear what was coming. that said, i mean, nothing can you for losing your bodily autonomy. so, i mean, i guess maybe in some ways i was prepared as a journalist, as a person who can get pregnant in a state that, has outright ban abortion. there's just no preparing for that, i don't think. yeah. so what do we do now? what's the what? what's the next steps? who are you following kind of organizations or, you know, legal battles? are you following as a journalist and what should what should we be doing on? all of them. but y'all shouldn't should not all of them. i mean, the thing that i like to tell people is local abortion funds in particular are so crucial, especially now. these are funds that are active in their own communities. they know the needs of their communities. texas in particular, has some bad -- abortion funds. can i say that now? okay. so la frontera fund in the rio grande valley is. fantastic fund, texas is also great. lilith. well, it is awesome. jane's. yes, jane's due process is really great, y'all. he found and there's a t fund up dallas right y'all have like the cutting edge of abortion funds here, so invest in them because doing really great work and they're they're really helping people. so i think you're if the thing that you want to do is help people a in a way that is very direct get abortion access that's what you do if you're thinking more about lobbying and you're thinking more legislation that would be more of like the planned parenthood center for reproductive rights, that kind of thing. i will also say, i think a lot of us are just so angry and so heartbroken right now that we're desperate. do something. and i i've seen a lot of people go about that in kind of a misguided way. so i think you know, if you're in or if you're entering like justice space it's so important to like listen and and ask people what they need and hear about and not just kind of like insert yourself or try to like reinvent wheel, but that's kind of the basic advice that i have and vote obviously tuesday. yes. say. i'm actually kind of on that topic too that this book i think one of things that's really interesting about becca's is she also kind of points out when she's going through some of the history that the activism pre way i mean pre roe and how some there some mistakes made and in that realm as well that we could potentially learn from now and you talk about the reproductive framework specifically in this book being kind of important to you and and potentially our work moving forward. can you for people unfamiliar with that, you kind of explain the reproductive justice framework and how it's maybe a little different than. what came before? yeah, absolutely. so reproductive justice is a term that was coined by a group of black women. in 1990. and that that term came out of their feeling that the abortion movement, the reproductive rights movement, wasn't addressing their needs. it was very focused on abortion. it was very abortion specific. and women of color felt like, oh, we have a whole spectrum of needs that go beyond just abortion, right? like we have high of maternal mortality, we have high rates of infant mortality. so reproductive justice really encompasses everything. it encompasses your right to choose whether to get pregnant or not, to have a healthy pregnancy, to raise your child in a safe, healthy environment. and i just find that to be a better approach. thinking abortion like in that larger spectrum, instead of just pulling out on its own, which i argue stigmatizes abortion further. think we should be talking about abortion with pregnancy and with maternal care and with infant care so that that's what reproductive justice is. yeah. and you do this this great and kind of speaking to that, this great quote you have here from angela davis, she's she she says, when black and latino women resort to abortions in such large numbers, the stories they tell are not so about their desire to be free of their pregnancy, but rather about the miserable social conditions which dissuade them from bringing new lives into the world. right. so that that bigger picture. yeah. you're talking about. so thing that this book has a lot of wonderful research a lot of interesting arguments but there's also lot of stories of individual women. and i would love it if you a just kind of as a journalist and also as a could us a little about the experience of bringing these women's stories and their narratives kind of to the page. how did you find their stories? what was the experience like interviewing and talking to them about this kind of often very fraught personal issue and and how did you decide which stories to tell and how to weave them into the narrative? yes. so respectfully, people not everyone i talked to was identified as a woman. i didn't know. you're good. you're good. so, yeah, i found people through a lot of different ways where oddly i found a lot of pre wrote folks through twitter, which is not what i thought was going to happen, but it worked out and yeah, you know, as a journalist when you're to people, one of the last things you always ask people is who else should i be talking to? and that's i've found that to just the most effective way of, you know, finding more sources and, finding people from varied backgrounds. writing narrative stories is my favorite part of my job. and it was my favorite of writing this book to spend time with people and be trusted with their vulnerable experiences and be trusted with their abortion stories. was has been the honor of my life, frankly, it's very intimate. you know, these are people who spent hours with me like answering my dumb questions as the pandemic. reporting through the pandemic was really difficult because i really like to be with in person when i'm writing their narratives just so i can pick up on their mannerisms and the ways they move throughout the world. and sometimes you there would be a new wave of virus and we'd have to cancel and it'd be like, okay, i'm going to have a bunch of zoom calls with you and a bunch of phone calls and text you a bunch of dumb questions about your favorite color or, what you were, what color were wearing on a certain day, or what the weather was like. and thankfully, of the folks that i talked to were very with me through that process. but i also think that as a storyteller, i'm always looking for the humanity right and and with an issue like abortion that is so important like it's so important to underscore and what this looks like for people, what being denied access costs. and i hope that i hope that my storytelling achieves that. so people in the audience who are also writers are trying to become writers of nonfiction. can you talk the process of writing the book to the revision, the kind of how wove again, there's so many wonderful in this story that you had to weave together so the actual craft and art that's on display here really, really beautiful. and so can you kind of talk about your process as a writer? yeah. so it's weird going from journalism to a book and to to wrap my head around it. i sort broke each chapter out as a magazine feature and that was the only way that i could wrap head around it. i guess. so i'm a big post-it note person. i outline the book in post-it notes, i don't even know how many times my poor husband so tired of like the post-it notes just flying across the room when the air come on. he's very patient and we're very grateful to him. yeah, it was a lot of, you know, obviously interviewing, reaching out to advocacy organization and it really helped that i've been on this for so long because with something as intimate as abortion, it's really important to establish trust. so that i had been working with you know abortion funds and clinics for a long time and telling stories. people people knew that i was very serious about it and that i was entering the space with a certain amount respect and care. so that's always really important if want to write a nonfiction book, i pray to whatever god you believe in that. the supreme court does not come in with a leaked memo, the draft at the last minute, the complete torpedoes, the whole thing that was very stressful. i had i had this lovely like two and a half month revision period and i had these images of myself printing out the pages of book and going to a coffee shop at the red pen and getting really granular with the prose and was very excited about that two and a half month period. and then the draft leaked. i got a call from my editor and she was, like those two and a half months, have to be closer to two and a half weeks. she's just like, hope you don't need any sleep. yeah no, i was eating like dry froot loops to stay awake. it was really it was really it was a dark time. so i hope that doesn't happen to any of you. but yeah, most of all, i was just it was so lovely to be able to get the space to really focus on a project like this. and i'm very fortunate to have been able to do that. so in a minute or so i'm to open up to questions. if you questions, you can start kind of moving towards the middle of the room or that microphone is. but we do that. i wonder if you could tell us the thing that was the most surprising you when you were doing research or talking to men and women for this book, what did you learn? that was maybe the most kind of surprising or kind of a factoid or just story, something that you stumbled upon that you didn't expect. so there are a couple of things. the society for humane chapter is these three women in california came up with a list of providers were safe to go to in mexico. i had never heard of any them before. i'd never heard of our history. they led by a woman named pat mcguinness, who is fascinating. i mean, like the kind of as a writer that you really dream of portraying. so it was really a lot of fun to to get her head and get into this these bits of history that should be common knowledge, but they're not because of abortion stigma. and there are i would also say i don't know that this me, but it really challenged. toward the end of the second part of the book, i get into the ways that restrictions really place a burden on clinics and ultimately patient care, which is kind of a controversial thing to point out just because the rights movement is very sensitive to any anything that could be used as ammunition for anti-abortion folks, which is completely understandable, given the amount of violence that we've seen over the past decades. but felt it was really important to a be true to my characters experiences what they went through trying to get abortion care and be really the ways that these restrictions hurt people like it's not just they don't just shut down clinics they they it harder for women to get good safe medical so that was something that i really wrestled with trying great. so i see a few people who have lined. but do we have a first question? oh, i think that mike is not on to help her. there it is. okay. wait, how much do you feel? because a lot of people say reasons why they voted. i want roe versus because of religious reasons. how much of a part do you feel played in this regarding like the dearth of birth? how much of a part do you feel is? not really religion, but really certain people wanting to a certain population number intact. you're very good question. yeah. let me just like say the thing that white supremacy is a huge part, abortion bans and a huge part of regulation. so yes, i think that control and, you know, patriarchy and white supremacy are all very much embedded in that. i think that it's also often sort of difficult to untangle that from religion. so i don't feel like i can totally pull it out. but like that's that's a huge part it for sure. hi, how are you? my name's kiana. so, my first part is a small comment, but least to the question. i'm using the comment line a little closer to the microphone. i'm so sorry. i wanted to know your perspective. i wanted to know your perspective. are your thoughts on moving forward. you touched on it a little bit right? but as we sit in this moment now knowing that there's years battle that we have to do, knowing the strategy that brought us here has for the 40, 50 year strategy. right. how do we move forward as a mother of four daughters? how do we how do we move forward? and then encourage the next generation to understand that this is not a a short term battle. this is a long term battle. i thank you so much for that question. first of all, like anyone who is mothering through this, i'm like, i think you're amazing. i i, i don't know how. i would explain to my kid what's happening. so i think a big part of it is you know destigmatizing and about abortion really frankly and in very specific terms talking it like we talk about colonoscopies you know like any other medical procedure and sort of making it clear that like that's even oh, hang on. sorry my brain stop talking for just a second. make it clear that that abortion is okay. that abortion has been part of life forever. and, you know, that that reproduction and and being able to control one's reproductive life is is crucial. i don't really know how you like explain that that a basic human right is gone like you, know i, i know that's my job in a lot of ways. and still sort of can't wrap my head around it but man more power to thank you god i'm sure this one right oh god. hello. hi. i'm a journalism student at texas state university. oh, and i was actually here to cover your panel. i wanted to ask. i never really knew what i wanted to do in journalism honestly. so right now. and i to know where to start, you know, like this is amazing reproductive rights. i mean, we're standing in front of the capitol. so, i mean, from you to now, i'm live tweeting, you know, oh, i start i want to be you one day. yeah. thank you. no pressure there, rebecca. yeah. jesus, first of all. dm on twitter, if you need anything ever, if you want to talk journalism wherever you want, truly. god, i love my job like it's, it's unpredictable and fun and heartbreaking and awful and like, it's just it's the there's never there's never a day like another one. and i think know, when i was younger, that was that was the thing that really appealed to me that and storytelling because i'm very southern so storytelling is a huge part of my culture and was a huge part of my life growing up. so this like a natural way to justify doing for us my life. um, yeah as far as like getting into reproductive reporting, i mean, do think it is something that you kind of have to fight for in a newsroom? it's always going to be the beat that is priority ized. there will always be, you know, the guys who are like this is an important or like roe's not going to fall. thank you, everyone said that. and you just like you've really got to stick to guns. i mean, i think a lot about like the conversation i had with my editor flying to little rock. no notice at all and just getting on a redeye and going, i'm so lucky that i had an editor championed my work like that was like, okay, like if you feel that strongly, it like i'll go to the mat and i'll get the money and you can get on the plane. but yeah, i just like be prepared to fight for what? believe in. i am okay. i can tell. i'm right. my question really is to sorry. can you can you move up to the mic? thank you. helping him write my question relates to the initial role versus wade decision. oh, although it was brought by an awesome attorney, i really question whether it wouldn't been better if supreme court had never down roe and. congress had been forced to the decision themselves, in which case it could. obviously, it couldn't have been reversed in the way that it has. but the thing is, even without roe, practically all women would have had the ability to have abortions through the private sector. and right now there are over a billion over a thousand billionaires in the country, over a million millionaires in the country. oh, good of whom are predisposed towards pro pro-choice and so you still the woman would have still been able to have their abortions, but you wouldn't have had the friend amount of conflict that. the roe decision as a gender over the years and eventually i think the states who opposed pro-choice would have had so pressure put on them through the private sector that eventually they would have reversed position and have become. do you have a comment on that? i don't know. i mean, it's so hard to to know what could have been right. and it's also very hard for to hear y'all because there's drums in my ear. so i'm so sorry. like i'm getting like every other word, but i'm going to try here. i think it's just as to invest in the public sector as it is the private sector, if not more so. so i would not be comfortable leaving that up to, you know, private sector. i'm not if that's what you said or not. i'm so sorry if i'm misunderstanding abortion. every woman who had an abortion, you hope. i'm sorry. can you can you link? i'm so sorry okay. i don't i'm. sorry. thank you. yes it's hello. could you. is this off altogether? so i just asked you a question. don't want to, like, just just up here and ask to come up later and ask her about kind of repeat it on my mind. yeah, well, human microphone, this thing the country been so why in the united states i we separated it what led so his question is in a lot of developed countries abortion is done in in the hospital and so why in the u.s. did they get separated out into clinics in many cases? well, so it goes back to what i was talking with the professionalization of medicine when when that was happening. abortion was kind considered this icky thing that doctors didn't really want to touch. and so it got and there was also this idea that it would be weird to have women giving birth in, the same area where women were having abortions. so it sort of separated out like that, which is also very stigmatizing. but yeah, that that's essentially how it happens. and i go into more detail in the book, for what it's worth. hey, i. you can see. yes, i think everything. you know, some people. i like doctors. and also, you know, doctors who who and it's like because now we a huge problem with medical. so what do you think can do so her question was what can doctors do about the current situation about abortion stigma. so i think doctors are doing a really admirable job right now actually. so in in my home state in tennessee there was they took out a full page ad in the tennessean and basically wrote this thing that was like this interferes with ability this an abortion interferes with our ability to provide solid patient care puts the government in our surgical suites in our like practice and it's it's blocking us from being able to focus on the patient. i thought that was a really powerful statement in tennessee, there is an abortion provider here in texas that i have a lot of respect. and she she talks a lot about how medicine an art informed by a science and not a science. it's not because everything happens on a spectrum, like things look differently in different bodies. so i think hearing things like that is really helpful. those guys don't know how it works. they just think they do. so i think being outspoken about that and about like what it looks to practice medicine, the ways that abortion bans really impede the ability to provide care is really important but i don't envy the position that y'all are in. it's horrible and i've heard of a lot of practitioners leaving the state. they're concerned about having to justify save what it means to save a woman's life and and yeah yeah. sex. all the time every day and in hospitals. yeah yeah you know know. thank you so. really hard to. for me can relate so i mean i had an abortion. 2017 and so i work in public education and in the state of texas but i and i work with teenagers. so why not i what i like we want to de-stigmatize abortion and rights in general. how what are what are some advice do you have in terms of doing so, maybe in a safer way or like i want to speak up anti-stigma ties but i don't want to lose my job and also like when it comes to especially after laws that have now when you know, in terms of how we abortion what are ways i can still be an activist in my work. i am a school counselor at a high school and so what are ways can be an activist without having to overtly like where students i don't know like are some what's some advice that you have i want to destigmatize but in a way that is you know that balance safety and also yeah you you just say that in 2017 that's incredible also i love that you work with teens that you're thinking about this thank you so much for your work and for everything that you do it's huge. thanks guys guys. yeah, i would say talking about abortion openly, i also realized that like the laws vary clear on what we can say and what we can't say and what we can do and what we can't. so it's it's hard to offer concrete advice because because i care about your safety, i think it's always important to talk to teenagers, frankly, about sex. yeah, i think that's totally where it starts. yes, absolutely. i think it's important to to call things what they are and not use use as arms. i think it's important to use the word abortion, for example. think it's important to to talk about what women's bodies actually do instead of you just telling them that they're dirty and gross, for which obviously you're not doing. but yeah, yeah, but i like to make sure i overtly, intentionally that but like outside of my work know when it comes to just like what's some advice of doing so safely like right now we're in a tent full of people who clearly here because they support what you're doing when it comes to just generally advice, i guess, do you have in terms balancing that concern? well, i don't know. maybe there's people here who are here because they hate you, but whatever. but i mean and just in general, though, you know. yeah. what i guess, you know, it's hard because it's so like brave new world, right. and i criminalization a very real threat. the book bands also like have me really on edge i can see like the of like freedom of speech and abortion rights sorry night bleed together has me really concerned frankly frankly but yeah i mean i don't really know what else to say except, you know, just like talk about it, listen to other people about their experiences. like i wonder about like especially somebody who has like a job like that, having maybe links names to other organizations handy for for people. so not necessarily you don't have to do all the work yourselves, but connecting connecting people to yeah that's also. network and of our abortion funds. yeah yeah that's where abortion funds come in handy to kind clinic and things like that for students perfect that like yeah i can't keep like abortion clinic cards or anything like that. like even i think just like keeping your book on myself. i'm not suggesting anything to students but i don't know. but yeah, thank you. thank you so much. thank you. have time for one last one last question. hey, me, i think i was gleaning from what the other gentleman was asking that roe was always kind of an unstable decision because it's based on privacy as opposed to being based on maybe human rights and autonomy of the individual. do you think i mean, we are where we are because now the court is stacked with certain opinions. do you support enlarging the court or where would you can you repeat that? do i support enlarging the court adding. oh, expanding expanding the court. i support whatever it takes to reinstate this like basic human right frankly, i don't know if that's expanding the bench. i'm not optimistic that happening under our current president. yeah, i don't know know. i got