Balance sheet it on our own. We dont actually participate in their program. They ought to change that. My time is running out, yeah. I think it is. I yield back. Thank you very much. We will now take a brief recess and return in ten minutes. The committee now stands in recess. [inaudible] 2 million arrest figure . Well, that is costing the American People a fortune and we dont know what to do with the committee will come to order. The gentleman from missouri, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chair. Welcome back, this is lady and gentleman, theres folks on a larger issue today the effects of the consumer, consumers all over the world. Which is heavy investment, volatile, and unfriendly countries such as russia and china. Miss frazier, mr. Diamond, theres banks that have significant investments with russia. After putins invasion of ukraine. While american sanctions were impetus for those actions, it should be said you did the right thing by saving your assets. There we learned two things from that. Number, one there is a large risk investing in volatile agents with volatile. Governments number, to they play a significant role in managing the nations economy. In recent, months chinas continue to threaten taiwan with violent rhetoric. Should the ccp follow through on its threat to taiwan, all your banks prepared to pull your investments out . We go to start . First we will follow the government guidance, which has been for decades to work with china, and if they change the position we will immediately change as we did in russia. Miss fraser . We would do likewise. Follow the government guidance on that. We very much hope it doesnt happen. Mr. Dimon . We would absolutely salute and follow whatever the American Government would say. This is for you, all what you want to do. I appreciate your commitment to follow u. S. Laws, your banks make decisions that go well beyond you. But you have made decisions to go far but on u. S. Enter the round of norms. For example, in and mass restrictions to certain gun manufacturers. In an asset it would not fund private decisions. None of these decisions are made because of a law passed by congress. Mr. Dimon, li be enough for jpmorgan to make the moral decision to not stop doing business with china . Whats the question . If inundation of an american ally would be enough for jpmorgan to make the moral determination to stop doing business with the Chinese Communist party . We would have to decide when the happens. You are not going to commit to pulling us out of china if they invade taiwan . Is what you just said . The first thing i would do is call the American Government and ask for guidance. Thats what i would do. That is what they would expect me to do. Mr. Moynihan and miss fraser . Same, in terms of decision. But we always look at clients and risk and effect we would find it before the russia situation took place in ukraine, that we made a just missed or escalated all the time. In every country is volatile, regardless of their it would be driven by the government, and occasional we are talking about, there will be driven by government rules and regulations and laws in congress. Miss fraser . Similar to both mr. Dimon, and mr. Moynihan, my first colby the u. S. Government to understand what they would be expecting and wanting us to do. Suppose the government said it was up to you to make your own decision. It is a business decision on your part. What would you say . It is highly likely that we would have an extremely reduced presence, if any at all, and if the business was left up to you, you would pull out, probably . Or reduce some assets . It is a hypothetical question, but it is highly likely that we would have a reduced presence. Each of your banks have Public Statements pledging commitment to supporting human rights around the globe. According to the state for 2020 report, genocide and crimes against humanity occurred in china last year. Those crimes include arbitrary and unlawful killing by the government, imprisonment, forced sterilization, rape and torture of a large number of those mr. Moynihan, do you condemn the Chinese Communist party for those who are blacks that they committed . We look at any client would do business with to their operations in any matter, and we make that decision. So the government all is not the decision in terms of who we do business within china, it is the client would your be . That the question, is when we look at what we do in the countrys individual clients, it is not a theoretical concept. So we look at that client, if their clients mr. Moynihan, with all due respect, the government of chinas the communist party. The comings party is the government of china. If you are doing business in that country, you are doing it willingly with respect to them allowing you to be there. And you are doing under their laws. Which last time you are here, one of youth reaction made that comment. So if they are committing these atrocities, are you okay with that . Are you willing to continue to do business with people falling to sign a process . Whatever you say in the statements, that is a bad deal. We do not do business with companies that we believe are doing atrocities. Or Something Like that. I think your question thats my point. Miss frazier . We obviously take any accusations of human rights abuses very very seriously. Like mr. Moynihan, we cannot win the activities with companies that are very involved in forced labor but its okay to do business with the government . We do business with the government. Even though they commit those atrocities . Thank, you i yield back. The gentleman from colorado, mr. Promote, who is also the on Financial Institutions is now recognized thanks madam chair, minor gonna be a little simpler than that. Mr. Moynihan, think of america has some of the best economists in the world working for you. I had the chance to meet with a couple of them. I guess i am coming up things a little differently than has been expressed by my republican colleagues, and some of you. Looking at the last few months, from may on, prices have been steady or dropped. University of michigan anticipates prices to drop over the course of the next year. So in conversations with your economists, what do they predict . What do they think is going to happen . Archivists have 2022 is a positive gdp. Negative for the Fourth Quarter of this year. Negative for the First Quarter of next year. And negative for the Second Quarter of next year. And then moving positive, and ending up in a 2 you through your First Quarter as a go through. Thats the yes i would say. I dealt with at the beginning of covid, i dont know if you recall your analysis. Your expecting covid due to the economy if we did nothing, if we just held steady, everything, when we didnt do ppp, we didnt do unemployment, we didnt do any of that. We just, said well, were gonna have trouble. Thank goodness for my point of view, we did a lot to keep the economy moving. Obviously there is a year over year increase in prices, but if we go forward on an annualized basis, just based on august, its 1. 2 for the next year. And if you look at the whole summer, it is less than that. So what i am worried about is an overreaction from the Federal Reserve, and the last time we saw him increase Interest Rates like this was back in the 80s and early 90s. And i can tell, you colorado got clobbered. I wasnt market just stopped, as did everything else. So mr. Demchak, im gonna turn to you. Because they had a pretty large subsidiary called a kiss accompany back in those days. I dont know if youre familiar with it. But it suffered a lot of foreclosures back in the 80s and 90s. As dates some predecessors to u. S. Bank, certainly jpmorgan city had the same some issues. What did you see . What did your bank see on the horizon in terms of foreclosures . If mr. Dimon is correct and we get hit hard because of ukraine into this into that, i think most of what we are facing is supply changes, threatens caused by covid, and thats what weve seen some prices go up. Are as your bank prepares, are you prepared, to handle a lot of foreclosures of the bottom falls out and there is a potential problem here . Thank you for the question. I would suggest i think inflation is going to be a little bit stickier than we would like. I think as a result of that Interest Rates are going to be a little bit higher than we would like for longer, then we would like. The impact of that on housing is clearly already felt and that creation of new homes in the sale of homes impacts of that an existing homeowners in all of my communities and their inability to make payments absorbing the greater percentage of their income is a real issue. We work with the government funded programs, state funded programs, p and c funded programs to make sure we stay in their homes. Have you seen delinquency rise . We have not. Not at this. Point of any of the banks seen delinquency rises on home mortgages . Mr. Dimon and i disagreed over the years about the number of capital that should be repaid. On the bank of a predecessor bank he was operating on an mou during these years when the fed took the Interest Rate up dramatically, back in the 80s and early 90s. Mr. Dimon, if you get your worstcase scenario that we outlined, is jpmorgan capitalized to take such an economy . Absolutely. Everybody else feel you are well capitalized . Yes. Wells fargo . Yes. Even if mr. Dimon worst prediction comes true . I mean he wasnt saying it is a production, just naming a possibility. I think the four diamonds productions. Bank of america . Yes. Not to take our word for. Look at the stress test for ten years in a row. Theyve been stressed testing under other scenarios, worse when it has occurred. Highest realistic prices, highest unemployment, highest stock market. Look at the result. Turn back to the chair. Thank you. The gentleman from texas, mr. Williams, my now recognized for five. Minutes thank you mrs. Sharon thank you average being here today. Appreciate it. A new merchant category is approved for a gun and ammunition sellers. My republican colleagues and i have expressed concerns that this will make it easier to track expose and limit the Constitutional Rights of millions of lawabiding gun owners. Progressives are already hearing that this will be a huge step forward and monitoring suspicious gun purchases. Nevertheless they claim have been dragged into the political arena. And it reads, we cannot believe that private companies should service moral arbitrators. Asking private companies to decide what legal products or services can and cannot be bought, and from what story gets sets a dangerous precedent. Further, it could be an invasion of privacy for banks and Payment Networks to know each for most personally trusting habits. We said is firmly against this. So even though i think the Critical Committee should disregard the new code i do agree with the Statement Released by visa. The problem with these new classification codes is a determining what is suspicious is a subjective exercise and anyone who is against the rights of gun owners will want your institutions to fly every single transaction with the gun and cc to law enforcement. So before i continue to quickly get used anointed each of you from two things. First, if you agree with implemented this new mcc for guns and seconddegree with pieces Public Statement. We can start with you, mister scharf. Please repeat the public. Statement read the Public Statement that i just read . Yes, could you repeated. Well, i can read it but it will cut into our time. Just as they dont seem to be political business. And they want to get out of it. So, joins your question, we dont set the marching category codes. So the ico association sets them and we are instructed to follow so what we think is not really relevant at this point. Mr. Rogers . Certainly follow the rules set on a Credit Card Company and intermediaries. What well also look at all for the privacy of our clients. Do you agree with lisas Public Statement . We will protect the privacy of our clients according to the law. Mr. Moynihan . As my two colleagues have said, the rules of the association and of the is not our doing we just have to implement them but well believe in the privacy of our Customer Data and we felt that true for many years. Im not sure i agree with lisas public stream is all but it is their statement. Im not sure i dont agree with. And i just dont really reflect on other peoples statements. Miss fraser . Similar to mr. Moynihan, i can only speak for my own bank. We cannot use for sale farms for individual car holders. You said you do . Not we do not intend to limit the use of firearms borrowing individual cardholders as a result of the code. Mr. Dimon . I actually dont know what they use it for and we do not want to be in the business of telling american citizens what they can do with their money. We understand your concerns over the issue. Okay. Thanks. Next. Mr. Demchak, i nothing new to add. I think everybody is covered it. Okay. Consistent. We will abide by the rules and protect the privacy of customers. Miss fraser, what are the criteria that citibank well use if they find suspicious Transactions Associated with this new code . We will follow the regulatory requirements in terms of the filing sars as we always do but is first blush looking at this we do not think it will be a factor in filing a mr. Moynihan, on a similar note how well bank of america determine customers are filing or is it something but he recently came into money . Again, as my colleague just said, if they buy or purchase a gun at a shop, the fact they purchase it has nothing to do with the sorrow file. My last question, real quick. When i talk to Business Owners in texas where i am from there does not seem to be any debate that we are in a recession. And they are concerned about it. I would like with this question. Mr. Dimon, you said the summer that there was a high probability of a recession and much worse. Can you describe an economic hurricane that we have seen if you think we can avoid further economic damage . The American Economy has consumer set by high rates circulation and more which weve never had before. They are meeting as we speak and they are meeting for the next six or nine months. We do not know like. You only. Back thank you the gentleman from connecticut. Science is also the chair of the subcommittee on National International development and Monetary Policy which is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chair and thank you all for being here. Iverson the room in the First Quarter 2009 when the economy was contracting at a rate of 10 . I really did wear the number here institutions were not going to survive a week. We came a long way. Mr. , david thank you for acknowledging i think you said credit where credit is due the doddfrank was a big part of that. I was a short at the time by people in my seat of the aisle that doddfrank would crumble like a sandcastle in a hurricane. I was assured my friends on the other sides of the aisle it would eliminate the bank and none of those things proved anywhere close to being correct. Credit workers do we got through the stress just in the last few years because of dot frankly also because of those institutions that you run. Thank you for that not just not for creating systemic problems with actually getting the ppp which were so important to so many businesses in my district. I say all of that just because i want to focus on risk. And they have the three questions of risk about 70 plus of the market has migrated of a banking environment. With a lot less visibility. Take a minute to talk about whether we should be focused on that risk. Mr. Moynihan, i would ask in a minute or so about whether there are nonobvious risks that mister dimon has not covered. And miss fraser, im gonna close on you because of your global footprint, what risks do we have out there that women have jurisdiction. Over whether asia or europe, could be transmitted to our system here . Mr. Dimon, the mobilization. Market i would not call it systemic. It is riskier because companies do not advance funds during a crisis. We could. We do need to reform and for the sake of the industry, and we could get mortgages and all times. Mr. , moynihan, what are the risk for not thinking about . Now what are the bullets were not seeing where . Now are you talking about Mortgage Businesses . Generally. Incidents are the banking. Second as i worry just as much of what is happening on the outside of the making second of what is happening inside. When you think about economy where it goes to create those versus and leverage, and honestly there is more of that side of the Banking System and inside, that is something that i think we know there should be carefully watching now, in terms of funds, private lending funds, private lending funds have leverage in. Them high leverage multiples. Our industry, because of the examination practices and frankly the way the companies are run, is not participated in. So thats what i would say a risk is. But its always good to move about the economy and demand dusky was something a little more specific. When we talk about private lending friends were doing was cfos or the what would be focused . On all of them. The amount of private tether credit not only in mortgage but every single class insider outside the industry. If you look at where lovers multiples individual deals ardent have been done, there are multiple regulatory youve also this point that you feel youre institutions inadequate the capitalize or perhaps over capitalize. So are you saying that there are private non banks that are under capitalized relative to yes. But they will have net asset values and other words their liabilities or interested in that fund market to market. So you will have that same kind of stress. But liquidating those companies where people who do not work the same way as the system works for the company could cause more damage than if we built reserves, worked out companies. Thats what we have done for hundreds of years. Other people do not have the staff to do that. Therefore they just sell them and the greater process can cause more ongoing damage the economy. Thank you. Miss, razor let me close with you again. We have jurisdiction over some, stuff but not over lots of stuff. What do we need to be wary of internationally . When we look internationally i think what has happening from the pandemic and the war as it has highlighted a lot of fragility in the Global Economy. Therefore we have to increase our concern around energy security. Food security. Cybersecurity. Which will not necessarily all of an impact in the u. S. That could spill how spillover effects. For, example in europe, supply shocks in the Energy Market they are facing could well be a factor affecting the u. S. Economy. Next year. That is demand slows, they enter a highly likely recession. So the inter dependencies and these facilities are going to be the pieces we have to keep an eye on. So, connect that for. Me you identified energy and food. What is the mechanism of transmission . I get the economy doesnt have much slow, down boy is the mechanism of transmission which Global Energy and food markets actually create a potential problem for you . It could result, and if there is a Material Energy shaka could continuing. Europe you could see Industrial Production shutting down this winter. You could see people who are cold, and that kind of different discontent from the population, which could then translate into lower demand. And there are lower damage for American Goods and services in impacts into the u. S. Economy. That is where the main mechanism would come through. Thank you. My time is expired. Thank you madam chair. Thank you very much, gentleman from arkansas is now recognized for governments. Thank you madam chair and thank you for all those who are taking away from your day job anything. All of you to come for a few minutes ago, that was kind of you madam chair. If you have a couple water into crack or maybe to go with. Good discussion, i thought mr. Lucas racy has gotten quite well in climate stress testing, assault. Or mr. , barr knew vice chair at the fed said this was a priority. And some of your complying with that in, europe or not, mrs. Frazier. Are you complying with a, quote, climate stress test over your interactions in europe . We have had to conduct those in compliance with a legal requirements. What do you think that cost the company pretax to do that . I would have to get back to a number if you, am i responding writing. On that and you passed a stress test of the fed imposed, in the analysis of sharp to clients in sharp failures and performing assets. If you look at those performing assets, and take climate into account when you make a loan to build a tower on miami beach. Mr. Moynihan, did you not do that . We decided to stress test to take into account the project hub or the person. Of course. Mr. Casten has ability is introduced here for the majority, hr 35 71. That would require a climate stress test and would add Capital Requirements to anyone who feels that stress test based on a bunch of scientific experts would you like to answer that question . I would be happy to call on miss fraser, again, do you like that idea . The challenge with that idea the moment as we just do not have the data. These proposals are not comparable within the industry are between the industry. Is that a fair statement . When we read the financial test, the test scores . Record shows they are not. The european gdp are privacy, rolls is that, crack back in europes involvement in and you are a big bank in california so you comply with californias privacy, long . Right we, have to. Obviously and you do a magnificent drop, there im. Sure do you think a federal preemption in the federal privacy law we, back a, the Financial Services with the secretary general . I i think the Financial Service industry has had 30 years of privacy regulation and other issues of it. That you are pretty good job of examining on, it have an ongoing examination process. I think that frankly being exempted from some of those rules because of that. So is pretty powerful for privacy . Yes sir. In the next we can work on energy in congress. Much on the same page in terms of privacy. In wells fargo he made some good comments about the mortgage backing and comments today that mortgage thinking should be in the not being sucker. Do you think regulation had anything to do with that . Congressman, i did say that there is a difference between the way that banks and not banks are regulated. And there is no question that that degree of regulation will impact your cross base and what you want to do inside your company. Banks and Bank Holding Companies could not do Mortgage Servicing rights, was that a bad provision . Congressman, i am not aware of that provision. It caused all of you to divest your Mortgage Service and portfolios even though you are the largest 1 to 4 family of more cylinders in the country. So you had a natural head, but after the financial crisis all of you are asked to lower that, so you would not be charged the capitol surcharge on that. Was not a good idea, and you also want to respond to that . Ill just keep going. We still have a large Mortgage Servicing asset. You cant. Growth Capital Requirements are very specific on it. But it is up to us to determine how much of our capital we choose to put into that versus something else. All right. Thank you. Mr. Damon the fed has a dual mandate and price ability on the growth of the economy. We have had a proposal about the majority here, to add equity to the feds mandate. The defense focus on its price stability mandate . In my opinion, yes. And mr. Counselor at u. S. Bank, can you write a memo persuasively that you should have a look, well or you think it is not necessary for a bank . We have a living will and a resolution planned as have been reviewed by the last ten years. Do you think the fed should leave it at that or impose Something Different . I think its been successful, we have a very simple operation. 99 of our bank is within the holding company. Thank you very much, i yield back, madam chair. Thank you. The gentleman from illinois, mr. Foster, who is also the chair of the task force on artificial intelligence, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. I would like to just touch briefly again on regulatory capital levels. Im amazed at how consistent your industry is. When you come to, us its almost always with an elaborate set of logic to try to convince us that you should be allowed to lever out more. Its interesting because, youve probably all been forced to learn about the molani miller theory which says its independent of capital structure and particularly independent of leverage. Why is it that you are always demanding higher levels of leverage . I think part of the answer was well analyzed at the end of the financial crisis. That you all benefit from having the federal government and the federal taxpayer as the insurer of last resort. If under an extreme disaster, one of the cities you do business with, if it gets nuked you all be insolvent and will be buildup by the government thats okay. The question is, how far out on the tail should the government assume that risk . The game youll always be an is trying to allow you to lever up and expose the task paired to that risk. Our job will always be to push back against that and establish enough levels of regulatory capital that its very unlikely that the taxpayer will be called upon to do that. Just a quick question, do any of you believe that the higher capital regulatory levels of doddfrank have prevented you from having an extraordinarily profitable decade . Let the record show that no one has indicated such, so i think thats a very significant conclusion from the old debate here. I like to spend some time talking about digital i. D. And know your customer requirements. Mr. Demchak spoke eloquently about the difficulties of dealing with financial fraud, and a lot of that is identity fraud. Mr. Moynihan had a very unpleasant experience with a failure of the federal government or state governments to have any kind of secure, reliable way of authenticating that you are who you say you are online. Exposing you to very high levels of fraud and having to do something quick and dirty and unfortunate in trying to fix that. This experience was not shared in countries where they had a secure way of, secure and reliable, way of proving you are who you say we are online. The eu, probably most of you do business internationally, youre probably aware the eu has a very comprehensive roadmap for a secure digital i. D. That would allow you, if you want to open a bank account, you walk into a branch and you get yourself. You say, okay, get your passport or whatever it is, real id compliant drivers license and its in the u. S. Thats on yourself own. Convince yourself and that its really even someone hasnt stolen yourself phone. With a pretty quick interaction, you can have a very secure way of proving that you are a single, legally traceable person. There is a roadmap that has actually been rolled out by a number of states. Ironically, the technical standards for those were all invented at the United States there are countries that you do business in like korea where this is a reality today. That you can prove, he has modern technology, is yourself owed, essentially like a security dongle. What is your stance on this . What is the difference you see in the Different Countries in which you operate . Some of which have secured digital i. D. , some of which are moving toward it. And what is your feeling on where the United States should be going on this . Mr. Demchak, well start with you. Which are moving toward it. And what is your feeling on where the thank you for the question and the thought that you have clearly put into this. It is a big problem in our country, and i think we should move towards a digital i. D. Sunday but the Banking Industry is actually working towards today with a product called offense to fire. Where, once you authenticate yourself with one bag, we can share that i. D. With any other service you might want to use electronically. We have to get this sorted. Fraud is a massive problem and our methods and historical ways of dealing with this arent working. That is very noble approach to deal with a serious problem. But i think there is, ultimately, a real government function in issuing that authentication. And we have that in the real i. D. , we have that for physical i. D. There are standards that are being deployed in the individual states. I just like to end with a shout out to the better Digital Identity, improving Digital Identity act, that we have now moving in both the house and the senate. He was marked up in og are. Senators luminous and gillibrand are behind it. We can get this behind the finish line, at least on the government level, we will hopefully have something to avoid the nightmare that mr. Moynihans bank went through. At least have the government have a way for us to do those to authenticate themselves. Thank, you i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman from texas, mr. Sessions, is now recognized for five minutes. Madam chairman, thank you very much. To the panel thats in front of us, thank you for taking time to be here. Mr. Dimon, good to see you again. The opportunity that i think you have today as shown some light about how complex your businesses are. The varying attacks against you, the things that have happened to our country economically, the changes that are going on. Your ability to work with industry and others who are needing capital, needing reassurance from you. You are employees who, during the pandemic, did not close down their chance to go to work. Maybe some of you had different destruct restrictions based upon where you lived. But your blaze went to work, people kept the business running. There was not a run on the bank, there was thoughtfulness that went on by each of you in your own way. The trillions of dollars that flowed through systems that you had to take and understand who your customers were and are. We are going through instances of monetary and fiscal policy changes to. We are watching with great cautiousness about what is going to happen next but. I want to take this time and tell you that im impressed, im glad weve got big banks. Im glad weve got stable people. Im glad we have professionals that get up and go to work, take care of the Free Enterprise system, take care of Large Companies and small companies. Im from waco, texas. Many of you are in waco, texas. It is now a destination of choice where people are moving or even opening up wealth offices there, because people with money are moving their. But i want to thank you, because we need to hear from you as we are hearing today. There is some specific, questions mr. Foster had questions, others do. But we really look to you to be that capitalist leaders of our country. We look to you to stand for america, and i know, certainly citi and others have done business in china for decades. You see things, you see a bigger viewpoint than we do. So, i want, when you get in your car and leave today, the like there are people that respect to you. People that know you are in a tough place. People that know you are having trouble getting people to not just come to work but to learn the business. I appreciate you. I appreciate the hard work that you do. I know that what you do is pick dad and looked at in different ways and second guessed. Mr. Dimon, i know youve been the object of some challenges. And each of you have in your own way. But please know that we need you. We should not run you out of business, we should not be onerous on what we do to you. We should give you the latitude. You showing up today, to me is an example of what kind of professionals you are. What kind of men and women and the organizations you represent, that represent you. That will be there tomorrow, that to care about the challenges. So, we need to hear from you again. I hope youll come back next year. And instead of putting you on the witness side, youll put us on the witness side by youll really tell us. Heres the way we see the world and this is where we need to be the leading edge continued supporter of the dollar. Here is the things we need to hear from you. So, i appreciate each of you, i want to thank the gentlewoman, the chairwoman of our committee. I want to thank the gentleman from arkansas for sitting in. When you go back today and i want you to know that we need you. That you are the basis of how our nation can operate and that we have so many other people in the Financial Services industry that are there because we need them to. So, no questions, but a big thank you. I hope you will go back and tell your employees that you appreciate them just like i do my employees at a time when America Needs them the most. I yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you much. I think the elderly gentlemen for his participation. The gentlewoman from iowa, miss axne, also the vice chair of the committee on site has, ing community and development and insurance. Shes now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Guaranteed will be what asking some questions here. So, get ready. Appreciate your being, here of course its nice to see you. But mr. Scharf, you know im going to be concentrating on you today. As you are here, what, just about march of last year i believe. That youve been on that role for a period of time, so its good here will be able to have a good conversation here. I want to focus on the 13,000 wells fargo employees in our district. We spoke here last year, as you mentioned, he said youre going to make those folks a priority. We talked a little bit about some of the organizational structural pieces youre gonna put in place. The ways you are going to engage employees, and i was very excited to hear about those. But this news is very disconcerting, at this time. There have been nine rounds of layoffs, notices, to more than 350 i wins since april. To what i understand, that is due to a slow mortgage industry. Is that correct . I believe that is correct, congresswoman, thank you. Thank you. Bloomberg reported wells fargo is planning a major retreat from its Mortgage Business. I dont like this where. Its those Mortgage Operations are one of the primary businesses in iowa. Can you confirm whether that story is accurate . And can you discuss what will happen with the 13,000 high winds that wells employs if you shrink Mortgage Operations . Congresswoman, first of all, as weve discussed, iowa and des moines specifically its a very important occasion for us. It has been for a long time. And i see that continuing to be the case for a long time to come. I dont see that changing. We do operate within businesses that are susceptible to market conditions. Volumes go up and volumes go down. The changes that weve seen in the Mortgage Business are the most significant changes weve seen in the shortest amount of time, given the movement rates. We, like all other mortgage companies, have had to take a look at our own infrastructure and ensure that it is sized properly. The first thing we do is we try to figure out, are there other roles inside the company that impacted employees can play . I know that we have moved is ignorant number of employees from one division to another, as weve done through these changes in the Mortgage Business. The other thing i should point out is, des moines began, i shouldnt say began, when we acquired a company and des moines way back it was a Mortgage Business. For quite a number of years, the only thing we had in des moines was mortgage. Thats not true today. We have pieces, large parts of the company, that reside there. So, if you live there and you want a role elsewhere, its quite likely that you will be able to stay in des moines and play that other role. Thats good to hear, you still have an answer to the question. Can you confirm whether that is accurate, that you will be seeing a major retreat from the Mortgage Business . Congresswoman, we have yes or no . Is it accurate . I dont know how to define a major retreat. Its bloomberg cracked when they said youre planning a major retreat out of the Mortgage Business . This is a really easy question. No, its congresswoman yes or no . The Mortgage Market is significantly lower than it was. Im not getting an answer. What i did think i heard from you is, with the 13,000 high winds, if i heard you correctly, you will do everything in your possible power to find another job for them within the other parts of wells fargo that are located in iowa. Is that correct . Congresswoman, that is something that we do across the whole country. Not just within iowa. Okay, were going to have to follow up on this. So not getting a straight answer out whats going to happen to the tons of people in our district that you wont answer this question about, whats happening. What i dont want to see is all of a sudden we wake up and the des moines register, i have 1000 people lining up to make sure that they can get unemployment. The other thing i want to make sure we do is address tsa a, theres going to be any conversation about moving jobs out of this country. Okay . We will be in touch with you about that. Next, i want to move on a bit. This was good to hear. I thought some story suggesting wells would cover travel expenses for employees seeking abortion care. Now, the Iowa Governor reynolds is attempting to push her banter that she pushed through last time and was shot down. She will now, because of roe v. Wade. Can you confirm as well as covering those expenses and how that will work for the workers . Congresswoman, we have changed our plans so that abortion is consistent with other health care options. So that we will pay for the expenses of someone to cross state lines to get a legal procedure. Weve not worked out specifically, to my knowledge, exactly how that works, we can certainly share that with you. Thank you. One last question, can you clarify for commitment to remaining neutral and not interfering with employees on unionizing will be upheld . You want me to answer that . Time is up. Gentleladys time has expired. Will he be answer able to answer that, madam chair . We have to continue with the rules that we have used all day. Thank, you all follow up on that. I wish for him to get back to you with an answer to your question. The gentleman from georgia, mr. Im loudermilk, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, thank you all for being here. I know youve been anticipating and looking forward to the state for quite awhile. We do thank you for taking time to be here. One of the issues that is paramount to me, and i think it is to a lot of people, cybersecurity. Especially as we move more into a digital age, it becomes more and more imperative that we protect data. Especially data of citizens, your customers. It came from an intelligence background of the military, where i had a very high security clearance. We had one principle that we lived by, which is the best if you dont need data, dont keep it. Because you only have to protect what you have. So, if you dont absolutely need information, then you are to dispose of it. Part of my concern is the amount of data that you are required not only to keep but the pass on to the federal government. Which, from what we have learned, becomes the weak link in the cybersecurity protection chain. That is a discussion for another day. Whether its provisions of the bsa and cta and sars. The massive amount of data that is passed along that you are required to give to the federal government, their majority of it is never looked at, that becomes a cybersecurity issue. That the last several hearings that weve had with you and the ceos of large banks, ive been one of the few members, if not the only, to bring up cybersecurity. The reason i bring this up is not just my interest, but im hearing from you that that is one of your top issues and concerns. Mr. Cecere, can you give us an update on cybersecurity threats in the Banking Industry that you are facing . And maybe some things youre doing to address those. Certainly, representative. I agree that cyber is one of the significant risks that we are all facing. Ill also say that were also working very well together. If we see a node attacking one of, us we make sure we communicate with each other to make sure were shutting it down as quickly as possible. I know that weve, all including u. S. Bank, made significant investments in cybersecurity. But from a personnel standpoint as well as an investment standpoint. Weve doubled the staff in the last few years within our cyber group as well as our investment and spend. The reason for that is because of such a significant risk. I think it requires coordination among the banks, regulators and the government. And we are working hard on it. Okay, thank you. Mr. Rogers, i know that this is an area of concern for truist, and i may interject that that is the name of the home park of the world series atlanta braves. But, that aside, i know that cybersecurity is a serious concern for truist as well. Can you discuss the threats that you are seeing, and what truist is doing . Thank you for your focus on this, representative. I can add now playoff bound atlanta braves, just add to that distinction. It has been a big focus and it was one of the reasons we merged, was to create additional capacity to invest in things that are relevant for our clients, relevant for our communities. Also in the protection of the important data that we preserve for our clients. We have multiple thresholds that we analyze every day, related to cyber. We hire third parties to come in and test and actually try to invade us at any particular time and test our particular forces. We participated all the industry things, including horizontal refused by our regulators who are constantly looking at where we are relative to cyber. So, even the capability to bring in talent and capacity that has exceeded what we could do before the merger. , so cyber is clearly a focus for us and one of the region reasons we merged was to create a stronger shield for our clients. Thank you on that. While ive got you, one of the things that republicans have been working on and were currently accepting feedback on, a draft bill that would finally establish a National Consumer data privacy standard. We have to identify, positively, what data belongs to the consumer. What data belongs to the financial institution, et cetera. And protect that. Mr. Rogers, can you discuss why National Data privacy standards would provide consumers with clarity about who owns their data as well as those privacy issues . Representative, im not familiar exactly with all the intricacies of that particular bill, but the important part of data being owned by the client is critical. Thats how we approach data, its the clients data, not ours. Its our duty to protect the clients data. Thank, you madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentlewoman from ohio, mrs. Beatty, it is also the chair of the subcommittee on diversity and inclusion, is now recognized for five minutes. First of all, let me say thank you, madam chair. Not only for this Committee Hearing but for interesting in me to chair the diversity and inclusion subcommittee. Let me say thank you to all of the witnesses, faces that i know. For the record, my comments and questions are not divisive nor are they a part of any political elections coming up. I can clearly say that because anyone who has followed me, met with me or known me, using your words, i find myself to be the guardian of doddfrank. Especially section 3 42, as well as diversity and inclusion, mdi, especially coupled with protegee banks, equity for those who are unbanked, racial disparity, the wealth gap, narrowing it. Looking at cra and external contracts with asset managers, lawyers, et cetera. With that said, it was reported in april of 2022 by the g. A. O. That there are some seven billion u. S. Households that dont have bank accounts. They gave three primary reasons, anyone know with those three are . Let me share it with you. People believe that they dont have enough money. People believe that the fees are to excessive or complicated or they dont know how to access it. But number three is trust, lack of trust. Oftentimes, that is because people dont to see people who look like them or their communities. So, that supports what i believe in. Let me tell you some good news. Every one of you sitting here has met with me. On june 16th, i had the opportunity to spend more than an hour with every one of you. In addition to that, many of you, as we said that yesterday, brought staff, walk me through your changes. So im going to apply to you for that. Let me tell you why. But for this chairwoman pushing the envelope, maybe having subpoena power, but making sure that she was consistent. If were going to talk about justice, if were going to talk about democracy and fairness, then we cant get to all the other things. Whether its intelligence, whether its cybersecurity. If you dont reflect the people that put all those dollars into your bank. Buying homes, everything that they are doing. It comes back to what i believe in and what i stand for. You have moved the needle, and that is what i asked you to do. You socked before that. Many still have a lot of work to do. But im going to give you credit. Because i really dont believe, but for this committee, you would have been in here. I really dont believe you would have been as serious and intentional. Not just the window dressing that youve done for years, not impressing us was saying go hire people, then you go higher 40 or 50 people. And none of those people report to you. None of those people have an opportunity to go into the boardroom. But now, we are moving the needle. Dont get really excited, we have a lot more work to do. But i do believe in saying and rewarding people who are moving the needle because thats what i asked you to do. Now, it gets much tougher as we go along. Because once you move the needle, im a clinical psychologist by trade, once you move the needle it means i should be able to look at your board and see the same type of diversity. Congressman green asked you about the future, and that was really good. But i want to talk about the president. How many people have someone who would represent diversity that reports to you . We didnt have that, congresswoman waters, before you establish this committee. How many of you have taken a d and hire someone into your board of Trustees Room and did a report on dni . We did not have that before this committee. So, if you could move the needle now, part two, which starts tomorrow, is im going to give you a bigger needle to move. But i want to say thank you for being here. And im going to tell you a bit of a tidbit. We arent just beating up on you and asking you to do these good things, you are making america better. It means you could do much more. Weve done the same things to asset managers. Yesterday, we brought insurance, the largest insurance Investment Companies in the firm. They did not do so well. So, were going to use you as a benchmark. Now, we set the needle higher. I want to know how many people are going to make a commitment to come back, to continue to do this, and to continue to move that needle. Let the record show, mr. Green, they all raise their hands and im going to hold them accountable. Thank, you i yield back. Thank you very much. The gentleman from West Virginia, mr. Mooney, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Despite its initial resistance, leftist activists successfully pressured the International Organization for standardization and Major Credit Card Companies to adopt a new merchant category code for firearm retailers. Which they say can be used to flag lawful gun purchases and target lawabiding citizens. Merchant category codes or m c cs, are typically used to identify merchants by the goods and services they provide. West virginia, the state im blessed to represent, is one of the most prosecond amendment states in the country. Nearly 60 of West Virginia have firearms in their homes, which is frankly why its one of the safest states in the country. Because guns at sly protect and save lives, despite what the left says about it. Mr. Rogers, i was just saying that truist Bank Services over 260,000 West Virginia. Theres also been talk of using this new data to flag what they call, quote, suspicious purchases. To me, it seems like a straightforward way to target gun owners without actually helping prevent crime. In fact, the opposite is true, the more folks valence elves of the constitutional right to the segment, the less crime you have. My question, is what in your mind constitutes a suspicious transaction . And what new information does this code really provide for you to make that determination . Thank you, representative, for that question. As we discussed earlier, this is a Development Area at this particular time. Our positions will follow the rules that are part of the system. But as it is, today we will protect the law and protect the rights of our consumers, in terms of reporting. I cant speak to exactly what will be required in terms of reporting, but that wont be something that we will do on a voluntary basis. Okay. Thank you for that response. Followup question. My constituents now may consider purchasing firearms with cash instead of a credit card, at a fear that the federal government, what the federal government might do with their data. Who decides which merchants fall under a merchant category code . And does truist bank plan to go back and recode businesses and past purchases that may now most closely fall under the new merchant category code . Representative, we dont control the merchant codes, thats not actually a decision that truist makes. Okay. Well, great. In closing, i just want to say, never before have we seen an administration weaponize financial regulators and pressure lenders to push its agenda like we have seen with the Biden Administration. I fear this as one step closer to a backdoor gun registry. Banks and corporations must resist this political pressure. The best thing we can do to help our constituents at all americanss competition. Free Market Competition between your banks, between small bank. Thats what you get Better Service for all. More regulation, we have to make a choice in this country. My mother fled a communist country, she fled cuba when she was nine years old. You have a choice between this country, some are pushing socialism. What socialist countries do like russia is a invade other countries because their economies and total disaster. Socialism does not work so they try to gobble up other countries. We have to make a basic choice between freedom and free markets and capitalism in this country or socialism. Is those pushing socialism constantly, its failed every has been tried. I do applaud, i think our role as americans should be to push free, markets reject socialism. Reject, frankly, government control of. People let people be free to make their own, choices dont target them. Thank you for your participation today and i yield back. The gentleman from florida, mr. Lawson, its now recognized for five minutes. Mr. Lawson, you are muted, please unmute. Madam chair, can you hear me . Madam chair, can you hear me . Yes, we can hear you. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much madam chair, i would like to again, as everyone else did, welcome all the individuals to our committee. My first question is to the whole panel. Where the u. S. To be strong economically and to compete globally, we need strong u. S. Financial systems. When you compare u. S. Banks to the rest of the world, using International Financial reporting standards, the largest four banks are all chinese. Theyre working around the globe to expand their strength and influence. What are some of the most significant challenges that u. S. Being faced when trying to compete with banks around the globe . This is to the whole panel. Mr. Lawson, are you addressing that to any one of our witnesses . I just add to the whole panel. Why dont i start, madam chairwoman. As we said earlier, mr. Dimon, said earlier, the near competitiveness of the chinese Banking System is an issue. But longer term competitiveness is a bigger issue. These institutions are top four in the world. Leaving aside the Economic Issues in the country of china right, now theyve made substantial amounts of money. Theyre able to compete on a worldwide basis and support, particularly, their multinational client base of the world outside the country. Outside the country of china. I think its something to be concerned about. Frankly, they can operate in the u. S. Under the current rules set. They could acquire many of us with it much problem in terms of Financial Resources to do it. Would anyone else like to comment on that, before i go to another question . I would go ahead. Jane fraser from citi, think you for the question, congressman. I would add in that, when our banks operate abroad, many of us are supporting american multinationals abroad and their competitiveness. And scale matters and supporting these companies and they also result in jobs in america and support of the economy here. So, for that not to be operating on american rails could be problematic in terms of safety, security, cyber, privacy and many other themes that weve been discussing at todays hearings. It is better unamerican rails than on others. Okay, thank you very much. I have another question for the panel. In 2021, report demonstrated that holmes and black and hispanic neighborhoods who are more likely to receive appraisal value below the ones that are in majority white neighborhoods. After taking into account the difference in home and ever had quality, racial bias hes lead to the evaluation of homes and majority black neighborhoods at 23 less than those in other neighborhoods with fewer or no black residents. To any of your banks use traditional alternative appraisals like automated valuation models, as a means of reducing the prevalence of impact of appraisal bias . Im going to say this to you. I just read example, in the area in florida. Breaking it down a little bit to the area, the area of tallahassee in florida. Many of the young graduates coming out of school, it seems they go into black neighborhoods and try to rebuild them. But they have a problem because the banks want to refinance those mortgages and say, you know, why dont you go someplace else, so to speak. But thats how you can improve the community. I just want to know if you are using any alternative evaluation models for appraisals, so that the young ones coming out, ill just cutter it, there are able to get mortgage financing . Thank, you congressman. Ill speak to that very quickly. We use alternative models, alternative sources of payment where we see past rental payments and so forth. To do that. Thats easier to do when we own the mortgage of the home equity. The case may be that it is to do inside of the fanny freddy or jenny may programs, the Government Programs dont support that. Okay, with that, madam chair. I yield back. I have more questions but ill just submit them. Thank you very much. The gentleman from ohio, mr. Davidson, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Thanks to our witnesses and to my colleagues, appreciate you having this hearing. A few years ago we saw a few large banks adopt a policy of refusing cash deposits. It is accepting cash deposits a liability . And if so, is it more of a market risk or a regulatory, bank secrecy risk . Anyone . Mr. Dimon . You reminded me of somebody from years ago. I do believe it was a regulatory risk, a man who is very cautious about accepting cash deposits particularly interstate. Mr. Scharf . I dont have anything to add. So, the regulators have intimidated the banks, mega banks, as the chair would like to refer to the, all to wear no one even wants to speak about taking cash. A less payments a risk to the Financial System . Permission less like cash, like i to give a person cash. Whether its casualties on sort of electronic payment. Is a permission those peer to peer transaction some sort of threat to the Financial System . No. No . Okay, thats good to hear. I was getting a little nervous. Its hard, because a lot of people still deal in cash. When we talk about people who dont necessarily use your bank or the barriers to people using the Financial Sector any size or scale, they still transacting in the cash economy. As people become more nervous about, frankly, whether its government or just surveillance capitalism, the idea that Everybody Needs to know everything about every transaction and everyone else, weve got a couple colleagues who are really passionate about Digital Identity. Basically you get background checks for somebody to even talk to them. People are opting out of that, and theyre choosing cash. I think thats a big factor in the crypto space. Do, just by show of hands, does your bank custody any Crypto Assets for any level of client . Not much. Not much change their. Theres a lot of regulatory challenges that have made that hard as well. Certainly, weve worked, some of us have, for years to remedy that. Our financial markets, where home to about 5 of the worlds population and almost 25 of the worlds gdp. But roughly 50 of the worlds capital and capital markets. Unfortunately, in the crypto space, youre roughly 70 of that liquidity is offshore. I think thats a burden for this body here in congress, to provide regulatory clarity in those things. I just note that hesitancy for titans of industry, people in the Financial Sector, literally atop the sector, to address some of these issues. I think its a concern when we look at regulators. The power the regulators have over the sector. Frankly, that i think was a win of sorts was not to seeing im a rover confirmed for the office of control or currency. No one made President Biden nominate her or senator cheri brown give her high praise and walk around the senate and try to get her confirmed. That she is someone who described herself as radical and held fundamentally different views on the Banking Industry. Going so far as to suggest that the Federal Reserve or even the Postal Service should be Retail Banking outlets. Mr. Dimon, do folks that have no industry experience and only Academic Experience have a hard time understanding soundness and risk in the private sector . I would love to see the Federal Reserve be in the Retail Banking business and running call centers, operating centers and atms and branches and hiring, all that kind of stuff. I would love to see more people who are not academics and lawyers and economists in a lot of jobs in washington, d. C. Its a great quote. In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, theyre not. I think the country would benefit greatly from Something Like that. Yeah, ive been concerned. There is a study that showed the median years of experience the Biden Administration is zero. So, hopefully the next few years changes that. Miss fraser, as ive just a few minutes left, your bank is a lot with sanctions. As do all of yours. But if you look at the International Aspects of, it the office of foreign aspect control i need to know how to pronounce moynihan someone please mute. When you look at the opportunity to improve, that the way the system is that it causes a bit of Collateral Damage for domestic companies. Do you have any ideas on how we can reform that . If you cant finish your answer, could you please send sunday to our office about your experience. Id be delighted to. It will involve international collaboration. Thank you. Wish we had to time for more corrections of information thats being given about the banks and cash. However, we must move on. The gentlewoman from north carolina, mrs. Adams is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you for hosting todays hearings. Tour witnesses, thank you. Im particularly glad to see some folks from back home. Charlie scharf from wells, the rogers from truist. And Bryan Moynihan from bank of america. Thank you for being here, and everybody else as well. I do want to get right to it. Id like to ask you to keep your remarks around 32nd, so we can hear from everyone. s question is to each of the witnesses. As you all may know, im founder and cochair of the bipartisan hbcu caucus. And through the cbc, weve helped secure historic wins for historically black colleges and universities. So, im grateful that several of you here today have taken a partnership challenges. Some of you, like truist, wells fargo, have been door signature legislation, the ignite hbcu excellence act. Thank you for doing that. This, by the way, is hbcu week and the White House Initiative is pushing that as well. But my question is, i want to know directly, please be as detailed as you can, what is your Long Term Plan to engage with, to support and to recruit from h c b e . And how are you evaluating the effectiveness of your external effectiveness and internal pipeline programs . Mr. Scharf, lets start with you. Thank you congresswoman, thank you for your leadership in this area. Its extraordinary work, were proud to be a part of a lot of your leadership efforts. The hbcus for us is an incredibly important relationship. And his multi fold. From the things that we do to support the hbcus to the things that we get out of the hbcus, including the talent and locations across the country. And weve just had outstanding experiences some of our senior folks around the country who are products of the hbcu system. Ultimately, but we will look at is the success factor that we have in keeping the folks that we bring on from the hbcus. And ultimately the level of seniority and the scope of the roles that they carry inside our company. Okay, let me move on. Mr. Rogers. And we want to keep it 30 seconds if we can. Thank you. Thank you for your great leadership on this area as well. Similarly, where investing, weve invested as much as 20 million recently and hbcus in terms of direct investment. But also the important work that weve done and hiring hbcu graduates. Weve committed to increasing our hiring of hbcu graduates. And then, working out using the resources that we have in our company. As you have participated, and our leadership institute, using it to help educate and provide leadership training and the hbcu community. Things like the tech summit that weve supported together. Using our resources and working a partnership with hbcus is whats important. Mister dimon, are you sorry, didnt hear you. Ive been going to hbcus for years, we used to recruit at four and now at 20. We help finance them, we help grow them and we hire a lot of their kids. I tell anyone, the talent is unbelievable. Ive been to many of them, six or seven now, extraordinary talent. My advice to anyone who is looking for young black kids who want to be successful, go to an hbcu if you think you cant find any. Thats where you can find them. Mr. Fraser . Take you very much for that question. I think, like our other colleagues on the panel today, we are very proud to be working with the hbcus. And the cfo at citi is the vice chair at howard and puts tremendous passion and making sure that we have a broad set of programs to bring in and recruit and grow and develop the talent that we bring in from the hbcus. I think, similar to what youve heard today, theres wonderful talent. Were proud to give opportunities in our company to the benefit of the company as much as the individuals. Thank you, maam. Mr. Moynihan, just a few more seconds. Sure, i think, along with the hiring that we have continued to increase across time, along with the physical support of contributions to hbcus ended down months and budgets for helping build them out, 25 million of the last few years. On top of, that the other thing weve done is created an Entrepreneurial Center in atlanta between the two hbcus, morehouse. Getting the Work Together was kind of interesting but we are able to create an Entrepreneurial Center thank you, sir. I apologize, im out of time. Well be watching, madam chair, i yield back. Thank you very much for all the work you do with hbcus, miss adams. We appreciate that. The proof of the putting is in the eating, thank you. The gentleman from ohio, mr. Gonzalez, its recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chair. Im going to do a little macro micro. Mr. Dimon, macro, mr. Moynihan, micro side. Mr. Dimon, even as a book about the state of the Global Economy and some of your concerns. Going to define us all finding for the purposes of this has a mild recession with limited Financial Stability risks. Her landing is a prolonged recession, two plus quarters with heightened stability risks. So, keep that in mind. From a policy standpoint, what are you most concerned about what do you believe needs to happen to avoid the hard landing scenario . I think the sooner that the Federal Reserve gets their hand around inflation, so we avoid stagflation, that is the worst outcome. Inflation with no growth and unemployment, that hurts the most people and most businesses, et cetera. So, again to make sure we have secure energy policies, so that prices dont skyrocket, energy is precarious. If we see that 1 50, it will cause a global recession. How confident are you in the fence ability to do that . Im keeping my fingers crossed. Need to. The event of a hard landing, where do you believe the economy is most vulnerable from a Financial Stability standpoint . But consumer, going into a recession, is actually in rather good shape compared to 08 and 09. And businesses in rather good shape. If you have a hard landing, youll see eight fairly traditional tacked on Financial Stability. I dont think thats the issue. I think the real issue is global stability, relating to ukraine and china and more forward looking. The financial industry here could easily handle a hard landing. I agree with you. This is a comet for everybody, i guess. I agree with you on the china piece for sure. I would encourage or banks to be a lot more thoughtful about the role that you all play in facilitating the chinese economy. Their land u. S. Capital markets to grow their economy. We know that they are no friend of ours and, when you talk about global stability, its russia and china that are posing the greatest threats by far. I do believe with even close. Mr. Moynihan, i want to switch to you and get back to the consumer. A retail customers, how do you feel they are from a health standpoint . And then, in the advent of a hard landing, what are you most concerned about at the retail level . If you look at where the consumers stands today, they had more money in their accounts, as my colleague said earlier. They borrowing capacity, left the Unemployment Rate is fairly, low wages are rising. Working against them is inflation price increases that will eat a part of that increase. Also, unemployment. And the end of the day, we havent seen unemployment move. The question is, can the fed tighten Strong Enough to choke off inflation without creating such high levels of unemployment . Thats a discussion were having with the probability of a hard landing a soft landing. The view is we all hope that the balance could be restored to the system, but it needs to be restored because right now its not in proper balance after the last couple years. Fiscal stimulus, monetary stimulus, all kinds of things. Consumer spending 10 more in september than they did last september. We have multiples of money in their account now than prepandemic, and they are employed and learning more. Right, now its okay. The question is, what happens to them . Thats always going to come down to if theyre working they will be fine. At the end of the day, no matter what kind of loan they have, car at home, credit card, you pick it. If theyre working, theyre fine. If you are likely to get labor markets to be less tight. Youre going to have to work on it, the fed knows that the unemployment is probably going to rise. The question is can they get it to the right place or not go too far. Thats a disaster scenario, right . Thats the definition of the hard landing, the only tool defend has right now is to destroy demand. Which would drive inflation up. Im sorry, unemployment out. Put the consumer at enormous risk. Mr. Dimon, back to you for one final macro question. That has a dual mandate, as you know, maximum employment, stable prices. You have an opinion on whether the dual mandate is appropriate . Or would you consider moving us to simply stable prices . I would say its appropriate but should be monitored. Thank you. With that, i yield back. Thank you very much. At this time, we will take a brief recess madam chair. Green from, texas unanimous consent request. Without objection, such as the order. Thank you. I have a special purchase Credit Program id like to submit to all the members of the panel. Without objection. Thank you. Thank you. Well take a brief recess for members to vote on the house floor. Well resume immediately following the votes. Let me just say to all the witnesses, i appreciate your patience with that work that were doing today. You may want to take this as a time to grab some lunch. That committee will stand in recess. Thank you. [inaudible] [inaudible]