Transcripts For CSPAN3 Banking CEOs Testify On Regulations And Oversight - Part 1 20221117

Week the New York Times emily flutter reports on the barriers that people of color face when interacting with the u. S. Financial Services Industry in her book the white wall, she is interviewed by Brookings Institution senior fellow andre perry. Watch afterwards every friday at 8 pm eastern, on cspan. Ceos from americas biggest bags testify before the House Financial Services committee on a regulatory and oversight matters in the banking industry. They also touch on Customer Data protection, and working with underserved, underbanks communities. The committee will come to order, without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess of the canadian anytime. This hearing is entitled holding mega banks accountable, oversight of americas Largest Consumer facing banks. I now recognize myself for four minutes to give an opening statement. Testifying before us today we have the ceos of the seven largest u. S. Commercial banks that each serve millions of consumers, as chairman of this committee i have prioritized conducting rigorous oversight over our nations largest banks, and their activities. Last year, four of mega banks testify before us, since then our nation continues to battle an ongoing epidemic, inflation that is affecting every household budget. Russias invasion of ukraine, Rising Interest Rates and other crises that have battered our economy. In this environment, the role that banks play to protect consumers and provide access. Its absolutely critical. Over the past several years we have seen the system of banking in this country take a dramatic shift. Our nations largest banks have gotten even bigger during the pandemic. In part through mergers, regulators have rubber stamped these merger applications for far too long. It is past time we get to the bottom of who these mergers are actually benefiting. For starters, i remain concerned that Branch Closures across the country, which are often consequence of mergers are expanding banking deserts and harming communities that rely on branches for basic Banking Services. The committee will also examine banks commitments to underserved communities as our nations racial wealth gap widens, and black applicants and others continue to be discriminated against. I am eager to hear about their efforts to ensure communities of color finally get their opportunities to build generational wealth. The ceos will be asked for an update on the diversity and conclusion commitments they made following the murder of george floyd, and details on additional mergers they will take. In addition, following news and equifax sent inaccurate Credit Scores to lenders, who intern use them to charge consumers higher Interest Rates, or, even deny them credit. I would like to hear what these banks are doing to ensure their harm customers are identified and properly made whole. As competition for the ceos goes up dramatically, when compared to other customer facing him plays, many of the banks they represent have signed simultaneously earned the title repeat offenders for their continued validation of law. The committee has received a long list of unlawful actions resulting in fines. These fines pale in comparison to the billions in profits these banks make, and amount to nothing more than another cost of doing business. So, i would like to hear those compliance practices and commit to following the law. There are many other issues the committee will explore today, including the rise of emerging technologies. Many consumers have reported being scammed through a Money Transfer app and all of the banks before us shrug their shoulders. We also want to know what these banks are doing to protect their employees following the supreme courts shameful decision to abolish roe v. Wade, along with efforts to combat gun violence and much more. So, i look forward to hearing testimony from our witness today, and, i yield back. I now recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. And frankly, i disagree with the premise of this hearing. It is not because i disagree with holding folks accountable, actually, rather that is the opposite. In fact, i think this committee has done woefully little over the last two years to hold agencies and the industries we oversee accountable. I disagree with this hearing because it is theater, not oversight. The majority has had to use to do its job of oversight and they have failed miserably, now that we are just over a month away from the midterms they are posturing. Democrats first held this hearing back in 2019 in search of a headline. And, when they failed to garner the positive press they were seeking the democrats fault bolden by the biden ministration on the one party rule of washington to drag this back in 2022, demanding they pair the progressive agenda. Now, one year later we expect more of the same. This time at the expense of focusing on the real issues the American People are facing. And, when it comes to the Financial System list of issues is long. Issues is long. Make decisions based off work politics rather than worthiness. We will talk about social issues rather than economic issues, although we are an economic committee. That is not. All the elected bureaucrats, Congressional Democrats and the biden ministration have conspired to create uncertainty and stifle innovation in our Financial System. This will create long term problems. They are targeting essential in popular products and services used by millions of consumers, such as draft protection, peer to peer payments, and buy now pay later. These policies light options for consumers at the time when they can least afford it, it make it more challenging for Financial Institutions to innovate and compete. Coupled with reckless spending, democrats bad policymaking is devastating americans budgets. The price of gas is still higher today than it was a year ago. That threatens the spike again this winter. Groceries are more expensive, up more than 14 from this time last year. Bidens administration continues to clobber american families, and last weeks cbsn embers show the prices continue to rise at 8. 3 over the prior year, and up over the one before. Everything costs more now, and low income americans are hurt the most. Add to all of this the looming housing crisis. And inflationary rising Interest Rate environment, consumers are already having a harder time accessing formal credit. Families are being priced out of the housing market, because the fed has been forced to keep raising Interest Rates as democrats continue to dump jet fuel on their economic dumpster fire. It is offensive to all the senses. And if none of that bothers you, how about this . The Biden Administration is treating u. S. Treasury like its own mega bank. Doubling out half a trillion in taxpayer dollars to replace student loans. That economic concept is that the same folks are paying for someone elses American Dream can no longer afford their own. You are taking from some aides demanding the populace, some who could not afford to go to college. Demanding that they pay for those that have debt they shouldnt have taken. So we should focus on those issues. We should focus on the substance of how the American People live and seek to work. That should be the discussion today. We have an economy that is an inflection point. We should focus on that. We should talk about the regulatory challenges of giving consumers what they want and demand. That should be the focus of this hearing if we are going to have a hearing like this. Then we should talk about the substance of making peoples lives better, that reducing regulatory resume products more expensive and make life harder for average americans. Colleges have instead called on large banks ceos to publicly pressure them to promote divisive partisan priorities. In fact, she might hear from both sides. By the way. Where we are the months before the election. Instead of focusing on what your institutions do, best providing capital and serving customers, you are here. Its a shame, its theater. And offer zero solutions to the millions of americans preparing financial and the democrats for issue safety. I send it back. Thank you very much Ranking Member mchenry. And now recognizing the gentleman from colorado, mr. Perlmutter, who is also the chair of the subcommittee on the Financial Institutions. Thank, you madam chair. Good morning. Welcome to our committee. If theres anything that is built on trust it is banking. The Banking Sector lost a lot of trust in 2008, but with the passage of disappointed putin operations, our banks are now well capitalize. Banks have been a source of strength during the pandemic, and in many cases have made progress in restoring Consumer Trust over the last decade. But it is not all sunshine and roses. This committee has heard reports of modern day redlining, high and misleading fees, and unfair uses of Credit Scores. According to the authorities you households have not used banks because they dont trust them. Other consumers are turning to risky cryptocurrencies to avoid the system altogether. I hope that todays hearing can be a productive dialogue on how to continue to instill trust in our Banking System, and ensure it works for everyone. With, that i yield back. Thank you very much mister i want to welcome todays distinguished witnesses to the committee. First, we have andy cissie airy who is a chairman president and ceo of u. S. Bank or. Andy cecere. Next we have william demchak, who is the ceo of the p and c Financial Services group. Next we have jamie dimon who is the ceo of Jpmorgan Chase and company. Next we have jane fraser, who is the ceo of city corps. Next we have brian moynihan, who is the chair and ceo of bank of america. Next we have William Rogers jr. , chairman and ceo of Truist Financial corporation. And finally, we have charles scharf, who is the president and ceo of wells fargo and company. With that objection, your written statement will be made part of the record. Each of you will have five minutes to summarize your testimony. We should be able to see a timer on your screen, which will indicate how much time they have left, and a time will go off at the end of your period, i would ask you to be mindful of your timer and quickly wrap up your testimony if you hear the chime. Before we begin with your oral testimonies, i would like to swear in the witnesses. Well all of you please raise your right hands . Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony will give before the committee, in the matter is now under consideration, will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you god . Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. You maybe, of course, you already seated. And we will now begin with your oral testimonies. Mr. Andy cecere, you are now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Good morning and. Thank you chairwoman waters, henry, and distinguished and will you speak directly into the microphone and with a voice that everyone can hear you . Certain. Good morning, chairman waters Ranking Member mchenry and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for letting me speak with you today. Is in minneapolis minnesota and hold one of the longest banking traders in the United States. We spent nearly 160 years serving individuals, the family, businesses and communities and ive always strive to be irresponsible and innovative leader in the financial Services Industry. At u. S. Bank we operate a simple straightforward company with four core principles. Opening commercial, Banking Payment Services and Wealth Management and investment services. We have earned a reputation for being well managed, financially sound, and responsible in our approaches to underwriting and risk. Because of this we have one of the highest ratings and have been recognized for eight consecutive years as one of the worlds most ethical companies. These achievements are possible only because of our Exceptional Team members. We work hard to take care of their needs and invest in Career Growth and development. This commitment has been for the reflected in our newly expanded benefits, and recently announced increases and entry level pay. Thanks to our incredible team, we provide exceptional Banking Experience to our customers. Retail Banking Services are accessible when where and how our customers prefer. Whether virtually or in person, one of a retail branches which we operate in 26 states. There are few areas of a Retail Banking businesses want to highlight today. First i want the digital investments. In addition to our awardwinning mobile app, credit to about banking coal brands with our customers on. Video dissolution helps customers feel heard and understood when they need help making important financial transactions. Second, we have made it easier for individuals customers and Small Businesses to access credit. I know policymakers on this committee have been seeking a short term lowcost small people have emergency cash needs. Four years ago we provided a solution for our customers. Our simpler product allows customers to receive a loan of up to 1,000 in a matter of minutes in our mobile app. We streamline our services for Small Businesses. We now can process and fund a Small Business lending less than 15 minutes. I think storing vessel into new point of sale technologies, Small Business customers can more easily manage their money and serve their customers. , there are working to make homeownership a reality for more care americans across both Rural Communities and in our country cities. Once this initiative weve launched his access home. A Program Designed to increase black ownership homeownership by engaging with the community. We continue to buy provide Market Services to local housing authorities, as weve done through the pandemic, and we are at leading fha lender. Our commitment to serving the financial needs of americans truly includes all americans. We recognize that being a good Corporate Citizen goes beyond providing worldclass Financial Services. In 2020, when we developed our access commitment, in multi dimensional initiative that works to close the racial wealth gap across communities. Fulfilling these commitments is important, and weve made substantial progress. Last year provided nearly 200 million in capital to blackowned or lead businesses and organizations. We made a 305 million donation to see emphasize, and weve made supplier diversity a priority in our spending nearly on these efforts annually. Still, weve pledged to do more. In addition to our commitment to closing the racial wealth gap, in addition to promoting diversity, the committees just with me. We have seen firsthand the benefits appointing diversity and u. S. Bank diversity strengthens our business, attacks and allows us to better serve our interests. Universally ink names u. S. For the top never seen the first year in a row. In, clothes and we believe relationships are a key differentiation for a bank. That is why we are taking the best of our personal person interactions and enhancing them with unusual capabilities to connect our customers, trusted partners and advisers. Today always our focus is on serving people. Relationships are the center of our business and the core of all the communities we serve. And that commitment will never change. With, that thank you for your times and for the work you do for our country, i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Thank you very much mister caesarean. We will now go to mr. William demchak. You are now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Thank, you chairwoman moderate waters. Chairwoman waters Ranking Member mchenry and distinguished members of the committee, i am pleased to be here on behalf of nancy Financial Services. B and c is a main stream organization focused on traditional banking activities, we were essentially done in the same business for 170 years, which is when we are found in our priorities. It has helped customers save and move money. We are a large bank, by historical standards. But we are one 60 size of some of the banks represented on the cradle. Look at your Capital Markets activities, limited derivative and foreign operations. P c is not a global systemically important bank. We are, what we are is a financially strong and Resilient Bank is committed to serving communities and affairs and transparent work in a transparent way. I am proud that p c was the first large bank to actually modify its overdraft practice. Since the rollout of our low cost cash mode products, Overdraft Fees and p c of drop nearly 50 . We have also made it easier for consumers to send and receive payments. P c along with the other on our banks of former services have developed enrolled at zelle, realtime paid a pay platform. Zealous consumers to have a free and creative way to send money to people and businesses. Despite the headlines, disputes within the Zealot Network make up less than Percentage Points of all networks. This is not true of unregulated pay to pay to play digital services, with at least one incident in the pnc case has at least 13 times the disputes we see on the zelle network. But better is not good enough. And scams in particular continue to grow across the financial ecosystem. Scams are different than traditional fraud. And that a bad actor gets to initiate the transaction themselves. These games are growing daily. And the industry regulators, and importantly legislatures, need to respond. It is not enough that we have portioned blame after the fact. We need to stop fraud and scams before they occur. So here Networks Like israel, realtime payments, and potentially fed now, all allow for authentication with the housekeeping. They also allow members of the network to identify, close, and police again scam accounts. This is not the case with non bank networks. These networks are not held to the same Security Standards as banks. When a scam occurs, thanks like these other networks. Banks like p and c have zero visibility. Where the money went. Zero capability to recover the money. And zero capability to close the bad account. Banks follow the standard set under the act and are regularly almost continuously examined for compliance. No big data aggregators are not subject to examination and supervision. Instead they hold the Financial Data of tens of millions of u. S. Consumers, and rely on screen scraping to gather and then sell. Cell. The consumer information. 12 years ago, the copd was giving Authority Based on 10 33 doddfrank to end screen scraping, to secure data, and to stop the selling of confidential consumer data through the fed tech ecosystem. This has not happened, and consumers are paying the price. Pnc i saw the social purpose and the date was founded. As a Service Organization we believe our success is directly tied to the success of our communities, customers and community. We succeed when our customers and communities, strive and win our employees feel valued for helping to fulfill a purpose. Our commitment to our communities are reflected in pcs outstanding rating under the Community Reinvestment act. I, raining by the way, since the of the act four years ago. We also succeed by being diverse. An inclusive starts at nearly talkativeness a. Today nearly half of our are women or people of color. I nearly half the that report to me are women or people of color. I am honored to represent a nearly 60,000 pmc employees who work hard every day to help our customers. And deliver for our communities. It is a safe assumption that all of those constituents are as divided on the views of todays challenges as everyone else in our country. Our job is a bank. In my job as a leader. Its not to arbitrate on who is right or wrong. But rather to find common ground, to live on their promise to serve customers keep them safe provide capital great economy so that everyone might prosper. With that, i welcome any questions that you might have. Thank you mr. William demchak. Next we will go to mr. Jamie dimon. You are now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. There, warnings Ranking Members and members of the committee, i appreciate the opportunity to talk about Jpmorgan Chase. One of americas largest banks as a force of good for the country, citizens in the global economy. We live in the greatest country in the world predicated foundational beliefs and freedom of speech. Freedom of religion. Freedom of enterprise. The sanctity of the individual. And the promise of equality and opportunity for all. These core values are the fabric that binds us as americans. And the best of what shines through, especially in times of adversity. The system has created what is still the most prosperous and innovative economy the world has ever seen. And one that nurtures a businesses, large and small. And i welcome environment for innovation, science and technology. My enduring faith in the strength of the country remains as strong as ever. The free flow of credit and investment is a key to our nations global competitiveness. Free enterprise is the fly will of the economy, capital c investments, individuals and ideas that drive growth and innovation. That is Free Enterprise celebrates and is inseparable from human freedom and innovation, which ultimately includes human progress. The secret sauce of Free Enterprise is not only in the Free Movement of capital, but more importantly the value of knowledge and free people exercising their rights. What this country needs most is Free Enterprise, extraordinary competent Government Income economy, and more competent citizens and companies. The work of Jpmorgan Chase matters in good time. But especially more in tough times. We provide critical Financial Aid in every, sector including Manufacturing Service energy and transportation. Importantly, we have federal state and local governments, schools bridges hospitals, and universities and transit. We have long championed the central role of banking in a community as its potential to bring people together for enabling companies and individuals to reach for their dreams. If youre being a source of strength and difficult times. We financed americans ambitions for loans for homes, autos and growing Small Businesses. And we provide valuable services to more than half of American Households. We know that our business is only as strong as our communities, so we are focused in lifting up traditionally underserved communities by increasing homeownership, expanding formal rental housing and growing Small Businesses. The last few volatile years have brought stress and disruption to so many as the world grapples with war in ukraine, economic volatility and inflation, Energy Insecurity and Climate Change and a pandemic. It is also shown that Great Companies with that size and scale of Jpmorgan Chase can do strengthening the economy. Because we have a strong and healthy company, we consistently serve American Household that business is well building our communities and protecting america and the American Economy. We are all, here, guardians of the Financial System. We support our government and National Security efforts to combat financial crimes and we carry out complicated sanctions. Each, here we proactively identify nation state and cyber criminal threats, and work closely with Financial Services and Energy Industry and with the United States government to protect critical infrastructure. And we feel Good American jobs. The businesses we all finance collectively employ hundreds of millions of americans, and a Large Employer ourselves we employ people in every state in the country was starting wages that far exceed any government minimum wage plus full benefits, retirement, job training and Career Growth opportunities. I want to close by thanking the more than 200,000 employees of Jpmorgan Chase. I would like the public to know how proud i am of these people who work at every state in the country. You all worked tirelessly for our customers with the singular focus on doing the right thing. You work on behalf of our shareholders, real people and communities, including teachers, Law Enforcement, Health Care Workers and the people saving for retirement. Many of usas personal changes throughout the pandemic, whether its your own health of the health of a loved one while managing your childrens education and child care needs. At the same time, our work has never been more important or more difficult than in the last several years. We continue to persevere with grace and a fortitude that makes me proud. Ive been particularly moved by our essential worker population, the tens of thousands of you who continue to come to work during the height of the pandemic to serve our customers when they need to do the most. You have my deep gratitude. And for all Jpmorgan Chase employees who performed your jobs with integrity excellence every, day you provide the best of American Values and make our country proud. Thank you members of the committee for the work you do for our country, i look forward to working with all of you to help solve the challenges facing our country and help grow and safeguard this great country. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Jamie dimon. Next we will go to miss fraser you are recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Thank you very much indeed, chairwoman waters, Ranking Member mchenry and members of the committee. Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to represent citigroup today. When a Similar Group convened with this Committee Last year, we shared how our bank supported the economy during the global pandemic. Today, well the worst of covid may be behind, assess the economic challenges we are facing are no less daunting. The reforms you put in place and the work weve done since the financial crisis to strengthen our banks Financial Foundation have enabled us to continue to serve as a source of stability. Well today i am a proud american citizen, as someone who grew up in the uk, i can attest that the Banking System and the Capital Markets in the states are the envy of others. Our Financial Institutions and our Financial Markets are essential to american competitors abroad, and they are reason why the u. S. Is the top destination for foreign investment. As Living Expenses for americans increase and concerns about the economy grow, we remain very focused on our role as a bank in job and in both creation. Through cities Extensive Global network and footprint, we partner with the most iconic american businesses, as well as the federal government, to help them navigate the global economy. Weve been supporting our clients as they build resiliency, reconfigure supply chains and adapt to inflationary pressures. And we help these institutions invest in projects that put them in a position to succeed in the 21st century. New season best mids that put a lot of people to work in the u. S. The private sector clients we serve are aware millions proudly earned their living. And they depend on suppliers who in turn employ millions here at home. At citi, we employ 70,000 people here in the u. S. , working in cities across the country such as jacksonville, st. Louis and los angeles. The work we do with our Public Sector partners is a prime example of how we put our Balance Sheet to work to benefit local communities. In 2021, we partnered with state and local governments to catalyze more than 27 billion dollars in infrastructure investment. Such as schools, hospitals and roads. Many of these large projects just wouldnt have been possible without a bag of citi scale to back them. We finance more than dollars in Affordable Housing projects. Last, year in communities across 32 different states from california to ohio to new york. This totally made us the number one Affordable Housing lender in the u. S. For the 12th year in a row. Breaking down the barriers to banking is also a top priority for us. In fact, this past summer, we became the first of the largest u. S. Banks to completely eliminate Overdraft Fees and returned item fees for our customers. We have been a leading proponent of pay equity. Earlier this year, we launched a first of its kind versed Financial Institutions group to lead our engagement with minority depository institutions and diverse broker dealers and Asset Managers. This group is focused on helping these diverse institutions scale and in expand into new markets. It includes the groundbreaking Rotational Program that embeds city executives within and the eyes for up to a year. Bottom line, my city colleagues and i understand and embrace the responsibilities that banks play in advancing Economic Empowerment and mobility. I hope my pride in citi its story comes through, but i also want to be clear and recognizing the need to continue improving as we strive to hit an even safer and sound or bank for the future. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about the work we are doing to support American Consumers and businesses. I look forward to your questions later on today. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, miss fraser. Next, we will go to mr. Moynahan. Youre recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Thank you, chair waters, Ranking Member mchenry and distinguished members of the committee. Good morning to all of you. Its an honor to be here to represent my 200,000 plus t maze at bank of america and talk to you about how we deliver responsible growth. This is how we run our company, its the same thing i told you last year and the year, before every time weve done these hearings. We deliver for our clients, our teammates, for our communities and our shareholders. We believe it delivering both profits and purpose. That includes being a great place to, work which is a quartet of responsibility. We invest heavily in our teammates and our families. This year, we increased our u. S. Minimum hourly wage and are on track to increase it more by 2025. We made across the board Pay Adjustment for all our blaze mid year in late spring, for those that are under 100, 000, to increase their wages by three to 7 based on years of service. This is above and beyond any b and you pay cycle. For the fifth time this, year we delivered special competition words to our teammates. This, year one billion dollars that went above other competition for 90 of our employees. We begin to dock raise medical for teammates that are under 1200 thousand dollars a year. Our Global Workforce is 50 women and over 50 of our global teammates are people of color. I Management Team is 50 diverse including 32 women. A report is 53 diverse and putting 33 women. We also continue to help our clients manage their financial lives. Over the past year alone, atlantic to individuals and families grew by 9 and our loans to Small Businesses grew by 8 . Or one of the top Small Business lenders with illinois and Small Business loans today. Our brand and customer scores are in the best sustained shape weve ever seen. We support our clients with the 20 and loans to help them with their financial lives. We hold a trillion and nine of their deposits to help them also. 95 of our ppp loans have been paid off for forgiven. We continue to expand arent National Network of Financial Centers and our awardwinning digital capabilities. Through both, we deliver transparent, easy to use products of services to help our clients save, spend and borrow. As an example, beginning in 2009, we began to take steps to empower our plans to reduce overdraft usage. We first eliminated Overdraft Fees for clients when using debit cards at point of sale and have not allowed opt in for a dozen years. We also created no Overdraft Fee accounts, now over 4 million in our client base. Since eliminated fees for not sufficient funds in our consumer deposit accounts. Weve reduced Overdraft Fees from 35 to 10 per current, and removed the ability to overdraft an atm. You can see that in the Second Quarter call reports that show our non sufficient funds and overdraft these are down 66 from last years Second Quarter. Responsible growth also shows how we make it impacted communities where we live and work. In 2021, we continued our long record with 375 million a charitable giving. Our teammates reported 1. 6 million volunteer hours during the year. We also continue to be a lender and support our Small Businesses and entrepreneurs in our communities. They provide more than two billion dollars in cdfi to finance affordable hasing, communities and small housing. Weve invested in the common equity of dozens of minority deposit institutions that have 100 Million Dollars and deposits with those institutions. Weve also committed in a unique program, 350 million to over 100 private equity funds that are run by women and minority entrepreneurs as private equity partners. And invest in companies with like owners. Responsible growth requires us to work with clients of every size and every sector to support a Just Transition to a sustainable future. And Energy Security for the United States and around the world. We believe that capitalism remains the best way to tackle the big problems facing society. We all face a transition to a secure energy environment. The private sector has the funding, the scale, the long term planning to help with the toughest issues including those. In 2021, we had 250 and loans and other support to clients in the area and sustainable finance. This includes over 150 billion dollars in a clean energy transition. We work with all companies and energy sectors. Oil and gas clients who are also investing to help drive clean energy solutions. Responsible grew oath also involves delivered for our shareholders, weve returned it to our stockholders but are now, sheet capital and liquidity are the strongest in our companys history. This is responsible growth, this is capitalism in action. Thank, you we look forward to your questions. Thank you, mister moynihan. Next we will go to mr. Rogers. Youre now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Chairwoman waters, Ranking Member mchenry and members of the committee, good morning. Bill rodgers, im the chairman and ceo of truist. Im extremely proud to be here on behalf of truist 50,000 purpose trip and teammates, thank you for this opportunity to testify today. Truist its a purpose driven, company that purpose is to inspire and build better lives and communities. This drives our mission for our, teammates our clients and the many communities and stakeholders that we serve. For teammates, our mission is to create an inclusive and energizing environment that empowers teammates to learn, grow and have meaningful creates. Truist minimum starting pay of 22 an hour is among the highest in the industry. A creative Element Program provides a pathway to professional growth. They include offerings that at the truist leadership institute, as well as Tuition Reimbursement for education that supports career advancement. Weve also accelerate a creative element for truist leaders from diverse backgrounds, which has helped us meet our goal of 15 diverse representation in leadership roles, a year ahead of our traditional target date. To help ensure our teammates Financial Security extends into retirement, we offer eligible teammates both a defined benefit pension plan and a 401k match at perhaps the highest level in the industry. For our clients, our mission is to provide distinctive, secure and successful Client Experiences through touch and technology. We recently launched truist one banking, which includes two new deposit accounts with no Overdraft Fees, as well as other features to accelerate our clients journey toward Financial Wellbeing. Today, 87 of our client interactions occur digitally. Revolving our products and services to help ensure we continue to offer a best in class Client Experience that is intuitive, efficient and secure. Plants they carry is a truist priority, and my written testimony outlines actions were taken to protect our clients. We welcome opportunities to work more closely with Law Enforcement and policy makers at every level to help protect our Banking System from organized and sophisticated criminal attacks. Even when most client interactions occurred digitally, Exceptional Client Service often requires the personal touch that our truist team is provide. Personal touch made the difference for many of our clients navigating the ppp process. At the outset of the pandemic and in the middle of our merger, thousands of our teammates work directly with their business clients to meet their fast changing financial needs. Im extremely proud and appreciative of the client letters we received, thanking our teammates for their help and ensuring ppp loans that help their Small Businesses open and their employees employed. For the many other stakeholders we serve, our mission is to optimize long term value through safe, sound and ethical practices. Truist is a main street bank and teammate serve our clients that more than 2000 branches and 17 states and washington, d. C. We are committed to being a Good Neighbor and giving back to the communities where we do business. In 2000, 19 we committed to a 60 billiondollar Community Benefits plan which included mortgage lending for low and middle income borrowers, commitments to Small Businesses and Community Development lending, Community Development grants, as well as the establishment of 15 new branches in l mi communities. Im pleased to report that through august of 2022, we estimate that are combined lending, investing and philanthropic Financing Activities already exceeded the 60 billion dollar mark and that we will open 62 branches in majority minority communities in the future. We have been a supporter of mdi and cdfi. In 2000, 20 truist helped establish quarters, where a new nonprofit that provides capital to racially and ethnically diverse Small Business owners. In 2021, truist committed 50 million to serve as an anchor investor along with microsoft on fbi sees Mission Driven institution fund. In june, truist committed an additional hundred 20 million to strengthen its support of Small Businesses with a focus on black, latin a and women owned businesses. Im inspired by the opportunity to lead this purpose traffic companies and serve our clients, teammates and communities. Thank you for this opportunity to shore our purpose journey with you and i look forward to year questions. Thank you, mr. Rogers. Next, we will go to mr. Scharf, we are now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. Chairwoman waters, Ranking Member mchenry and members of the committee. Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to be here today. Since october of 2019, ive had the privilege of leading wells fargo. As i reflect on my time in the company, im incredibly proud of how we have used our strength during difficult times to support our companies, boys and communities we serve, while we work to transform the company at the same time. I believe that our nations benefits from a strong wells fargo, that has never been more true than today. Last time i appeared before this, committee that country was in the middle of a pandemic in my testimony and many of your questions were focused on what banks were doing to support the communities which we operate. Those were important questions then and theyre equally important today, given the complexity of todays high inflationary environment. Since 2020, wells has provided billions of dollars in emergency lending to american Small Businesses. And we donated approximately 400 and 20 million and fees from that lending to Small Business owners who struggled during the pandemic. Through our open for business fund. These funds are estimated to average more than 150,000 Business Owners nationally, and preserve approximately 250,000 jobs. Last year alone, we helped more than half 1 million homeowners with new low rate loans to purchase alone, refinance existing mortgage. And we close billions of dollars in new commitments and Affordable Housing. Between 2017 and 2021, we increased average wages for our u. S. Hourly employees by nearly 25 . And increased investments in our u. S. Employee benefits by over 20 . And we launched a unique special Purpose Program committing 100 50 million to help eligible black homeowners lower their Interest Rates and reduce their monthly payments. In addition, we issued a second Sustainability Bond in the amount of two billion dollars that will finance projects and programs supporting housing affordability, economic opportunity, Renewable Energy and clean transportation. Our work is bolstered by our banking inclusion initiative. A Tenure Program to help on Bank Individuals gain access to affordable, mainstream, digitally enabled accounts. Though our work is not complete, wells fargo approaches issues differently and is a Better Company than when i arrived. We delivered a tremendous amount of change and established a much Stronger Foundation for the long term with a clear sense of urgency on building our risk control infrastructure. We have changed our operating structure, simplified our business and have new Leadership Team in place with the necessary skills and experience to transform wells fargo. Almost 70 of our Companies Operating committee is new to the Company Since i joined. Additionally, well over half of the senior most people, many of those who are one level below the operating committee, are new to their roles. We have also meaningfully improve diversity in our senior ranks. Additionally, last week we announced that we will commission and external thirdparty Racial Equity audit. The assessment will focus on elements of wells fargos efforts to serve Diverse Communities and promote a diverse workforce. Commissioning this work is a critical next step in reinforcing our commitment to Racial Equity and helping close the wealth gap in this country. Looking forward, i recognize that the country may be facing uncertain Economic Times for months to come. I can assure you that wells fargo is keeping a close eye on super spending and credit trends. I will continue to be a constructive partner in forging an inclusive recovery. We recognize that covid19 has left many people still in need. And the current inflationary environment has added stress. As, accompany we will continue to provide support to our customers, employees and communities over the long term. In conclusion, i want to express my sincere gratitude to everyone at wells fargo who has continued to serve our customers, each other and our communities through these challenging times. I appreciate their dedication and resiliency, as we have worked to make wells fargo better. Well we still have much more to, do our foundation is stronger, our business is more focused, we are driving cultural changes and the changes we have made to the company are making a positive impact. Im confident we have the team in place to complete the work ahead. Thank you, i welcome your questions. Thank you very much, mister scharf. I now recognize myself for five minutes for questions. Mr. Scharf, i recognize that you have only been the ceo for a little less than three years. And i remember the commitments that you have made. And i am listening to what you consider as being your progress since youve been there. Your commitment was to clean up the culture of corruption that existed in wells fargo. So as you last testified, the occ find your bank 250 million for violating a previous Consent Order regarding Risk Management and for engaging in unsafe and unsound practices related to serious deficiencies in your home lending loss mitigation program. In may, 2022, the New York Times reported that current and former employees of wells fargo described hiring practices that led to fake job interviews, so that internal diversity goals could be achieved. It 2020 report by the committee for better banks found wells fargo failed to sufficiently disclose employment diversity data, making it impossible to examine Advancement Opportunities for workers of color. One wells fargo employee, ted laurel, who is a Call Center Employee in san antonio, texas, responded to the last report saying, and i quote, its extremely deflating to be a person of color at wells fargo. In the past couple of years, i have watched a handful of black managers at wells fargo debt fired or leave, quote unquote. Mr. Scharf, i know the bank has made various chemist to address the racial wealth gap. And you finally agreed to do a Racial Equity audit. I also appreciate that wells fargo is one of the few banks that have maintained a presence in the caribbean as a correspondent bank. Wow, of course, we had citi, who responded to us when we were in barbados that they had closed their Correspondent Banking operations. So, i do appreciate. But it is not all clear that you are doing enough to finally break that pattern of repeat offenses. To take another example, a bloomberg investigation found that wells fargo approved fewer than half of black homeowners who applied for mortgage refinancing in 2020. The worst black approval rate compared to other major lenders. I know you will point to things like requirements of the g s ease, but this doesnt fully explain why your bank was comparatively worse in this point compared to other major lenders. When you look at the track record of what you hear feedback like that from your own employees, what is your assessment of your performances into last testified before us . And so, you gave us some indication, but would you respond to the findings and the criticism that this point . Chairwoman, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to address those things. I was brought in to bring about substantial change at wells fargo. And we have made tremendous changes. Ive also been very clear since the day i arrived, including when i testified in front of this committee in march of 2020, that it was going to take multiple years to make all of the changes that were necessary so that the company was run in a way that i would be proud of, a regulators would be proud of and you would be proud of. Weve closed for Consent Orders since ive been there. Weve returned our c rating to outstanding. We have plans a place for all the remediation work that has to take place. And i firmly believe that we are making progress across that body of work. As i said in my remarks, im very confident that we have the team in place, but that we also have the processes, the discipline in the sense of urgency to get done what is needed. If i may interrupt you, will you respond to the accusation of fake interviews . What does that mean to you . I think youve heard this criticism. Congresswoman, no one should go through an interview without the belief that they could have a reasonable shot at getting that job. We firmly believe that having a policy in place that requires diverse candidates helps us attract the best candidate. We believe that that is, in fact, what the policy that we put in place is happening. Thats the reason why our diverse hiring is up substantially since we put these policies in place. To the extent that anyone feels as if theyve not been treated properly, that is something that is on our Management Team to ensure it doesnt happen. Is it true that you interviewed African American employees for a position after you had already hired a white employee . Is that true . Chairwoman, we are in the middle of continuing an investigation to make sure that we understand every instance where people felt as if they are not treated fairly. If we have findings, we will take the appropriate action. Thank you very much. At this point in, time i will call on the gentleman from north carolina, minister mchenry, who is a Ranking Member of the committee. You are now recognized for five minutes, mr. Mchenry. Make you for your testimony. Lets talk about the main thing, the main thing here is the economy and the state of the economy. We see a changing rate environment that has a severe impact on Financial Institutions and families. We see it first with the housing market, seven months of receding home sales in a time where we need more Housing Units in america. We see inflation eroding families budgets on a weekly, monthly basis. Made worse by policies out of washington. So, lets talk about inflation. I want to know the impact as you see it. Mr. Fraser, you have a global footprint. You have jurisdictions that have rampant, persistent inflation. Huge pressure is placed on consumers and businesses in that environment. What are those economic consequences and challenges, of a high inflation environment . Thank you very much for the question, congressman. We are very concerned about the high prices that consumers are facing in america and, indeed, around the world. We certainly have lived through very unusual times, through the pandemic and the recovery from that, then the impact greatly exacerbated by the war in ukraine. The impact of the higher rates that are required to try to tame the inflation is slightly to be moderating growth in america and around the world. It will be putting pressure on many of the drivers of the recovery that weve been looking for. You have this backdrop of the economy. All of you are making decisions for institutions. In our economic system, american banks are a key piece of our economic system. And the Multiplier Effect that you will provide, the landing and the risk you take in our environment, in our economy. Lets talk about regulatory capital and what that would do. Truist, in the regional banks, weve heard from federal Bank Regulators about additional longterm debt requirements potentially face on institutions like yours. Mr. Rogers, what effect would that new layer of capital require meant to have on an institution like yours, and your customers . Ranking member, thank you for that question. First and foremost, we think that regulation ought to be tailored and follow the risk of individual institutions. I think that its consistent with a philosophy that we all support. Additional capital at a higher cost caused us to actually potentially impair lending or slow down lending, it may cause us to do other things from a competitive standpoint to cover the cost of additional capital. Is that what u. S. Bank thinks, mr. Cecere . Thank you. We continue to have a very simple business model. Although we are larger than we were a few years ago, the businesses that we are in our substantially the same. Our capital levels since 2007 are actually three times what they were at that time. We believe we have a very Strong Capital rating, which is a identified in art that rating. Additional capital will increase the cost of debt. Mr. Dimon, we spoke yesterday about additional requirements for regulatory capital and liquidity standards and the impact would have on the marketplace. Would you speak to that . Yes, sir. To give credit where credit is due, doddfrank accomplished a lot of what needed to be accomplished. Lehman brothers will not happen again, i think they should take a victory lap for that. President , said as often happens, things went a little too far. Its not just cabinet, liquidity requirements, international requirements, basel requirements, et cetera, do raise, lending damage markets a little bit. Reduce mortgage lending and some of our banks. We want good regulations, i think we need to spend a little more time recalibrating the effects of these regulations across the whole Financial System. So, there is a cost to this and there is an Economic Cost . And it changes the behavior of the institution. Which means you dont land as aggressively on the margins. Unfortunately, some of thats going to happen when things get worse. Jp morgan will be seated with a trillion dollars, unable to be polite to our clients to treat the markets at precisely the wrong time. You saw the markets get rattled in march 2020, going back to 2019. Part of the reason was the inability of very well capitalized, very liquid banks being able to do what they can do. Which means you can provide the credit in the system and of quarter, and of, year so were going to have choppier markets as a result of regulatory policies that impair your billety to repair markets. Is that how you see it, mister moynihan, with bank of america . Theres no question that increasing capital for us 1 mixes not be able to land 160 billion dollars of loans into the economy, its not straightforward. Its a simple calculation. So, there is an Economic Cost to regulatory Capital Requirements that are beyond what is economic or historic needs for your institutions. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from new york, mrs. Maloney, who is also the chair of t than wate important meeting our panelists. I thank you for all of your comments, particularly those who talked about wanting to reduce Overdraft Fees that drain billions of dollars from americas poor and working class communities every year. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has found that Overdraft Fees caused our consumers over 15 billion dollars in 2019 alone. It feels disproportionately targeted penalized, low income consumers. They found that almost 80 of overdraft its not sufficient fund fees are borne by only 9 of consumers and they are all financially vulnerable. Well glad to see some banks have taken some initiative by eliminating or moving in that direction, its concerning to me that its taken this long and that many banks still have yet to make any voluntary changes. With banks enacting different policies, consumers are left with little consistency, they are very confused by these different policies. We must ensure that we have a comprehensive, permanent solution and act to protect consumers. Thats why i have introduced the overdraft protection act, which has been reported out of the committee. It builds on the credit card bill of rights, which passed in 2009. According to the cfpb, has saved consumers over 16 billion dollars a year by keeping fees in their pockets. The consumers pockets. I want to ask bank of america and citibank, because in your testimony you talked about your actions to eliminate fees. Can you elaborate, what Product Offerings have you changed to reduce or eliminate Overdraft Fees . Can you speak to how your Consumer Banking division has remained profitable in light of all of these changes . First, mr. Moynihan, then miss fraser. I think you heard many of my colleagues talk about this, this is a product in the industry. The first is a no overdraft product. Especially for students in younger people, we have 4 million of those. I think if you totaled up across the, board that product allows people to have no overdraft capacity. Then, you have the ability for other products, for people to opt in. What weve done is reduced our overdraft pro currents feet from 35 to 10. Weve reduced the ability to have the nsf type fees, number of currencies. All that totals up, were down 60 , Second Quarter. Last, year second, quarter this year. Itll fall a lot further because a lot of those changes took place and we recently announced that its down 90 . But were able to do that because of the scale and capabilities of our team. And Consumer Banking. These larger banks, the variety of banks that participate nicest, and there is a variety of business models. But one of the things that will be consistent is a scale weve been able to achieve in our company and these companies at this table. Theyve allowed us to pass through those benefits to the consumers and still remain profitable. Thank, you miss frazier. Thank you very much, representative, lovely to see you. We are proud that citi to have eliminated Overdraft Fees and nsfs. This was the right decision for our bank and is reflective of a multi year commitment to having a customer friendly approach to fees. Similar to my colleague, mr. Moynihan, we also have a product called the access product. It accounts for almost 20 of all of our accounts, which in addition to the no overdraft, is a very low, cost customer friendly account that has been growing substantially over the last few years played a very Important Role during the pandemic for those who were most affected. Its something that we are committed to continuing to grow. Thank you. Are there any other banks that could commit to eliminating Overdraft Fees altogether by 2025 . Anyone else on the panel that can follow the leadership of these two banks . Then, id like to move to the Interest Rates that are rising and causing problems, or challenges, with the housing market. Making it harder for first time home buyers to be able to take out mortgages. Again, id like to ask both bank of america and citibank what you have done. Again, do you have any programs or ideas of how we can help facilitate home ownership, even with the challenges of increased Interest Rates . Be moving to 30 or more gets to a 50year mortgage, to lower the Interest Rate payments per month, with that help . Any ideas you may have. After them, anyone else has ideas. First, mr. Moynihan, then miss fraser. We have programs that provide down payment assistance and grants for that, if you get high counseling. We have programs to develop housing in our communities, develop programs, six billion a year. We do loan housing, development other types of hazard development. Its a multifaceted thing. At the end of the day, the amount of adjustment that will go on as rates adjust as intended to attack inflation, it will take a period of time for that to sort through. Thank, you the gentlemans time has expired. This wagner is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman. Id first like to note that this is our third time hearing from these witnesses, the second time this congress. The majority is likely to make the same assertions they did last time to name and shame, just to try to score political points. Meanwhile, we have an sec chair moving at breakneck speed to propose a historic number of rules. More than the sec proposed even after the 2008 financial crisis. Yet this committee refuses, refuses, taken back any oversight. Why is the majority unable or unwilling to bring in chair gensler . The Senate Banking committee didnt seem to have a problem getting into testify. Inflation has outpaced workers wages for 17 months. In a row. Under President Bidens watch. And americas workforce is paying the price. The majority of u. S. Workers income has fallen behind rising costs. Every day items across the board keep rising in price. The cost of eggs are up 40 chicken, 25 . Bread, 16 . Instead of addressing this 40 year high inflation crisis, President Biden and the House Democrats spent last week celebrating their reckless spending and failed agenda. Well ironically it coincided with the stock market crashing and erasing Retirement Savings for millions of hardworking americans. The very same day, Consumer Price index numbers jumped to 8. 3 over last year. The white house celebrated with james taylor singing fire and rain. Let me tell you what, the only fire thats raining down on my constituents in missouris second Congressional District is a cost of putting food on their table. Of putting gas in their tanks and paying their utilities. One in every six americans, over 20 million of them, are in a rears on their utility bills. We havent even hit winter. Why arent we having hearings to address the drivers in inflation . The effect that the five trillion dollars in democrat Government Spending over the last year and a half is at, or the lack of our energy independence, or perhaps the overt Regulatory Burden of President Bidens administrative state. That, honestly, adversely affects Small Community banks even more harshly than those before us today. Recent Consumer Price index numbers showed that inflation is not going away anytime in the near future. Everything costs more now and low to middle income americans are hurt the most. Mr. Cecere and miss fraser, in your opinion, i know that the Ranking Member touched on some of the implications of sustained inflation, particularly on consumers credit and the economy, but in terms of the level of savings and credit card debt, what are you seeing on the ground, from your customers . Your clients. Mr. Cecere . Thank you, representative. You are correct that inflation is impacting those who can afford at the least well consumers spend levels, in total, are about 10 above last year. The thing that people are spending money on have changed substantially. From discretionary to nondiscretionary and its like food and gas, as you mentioned. I think its appropriate that were very focused on inflation because, again, it is most harmful for those who afforded the least. Are you seeing, in fact, credit card that go up and savings go down . Savings levels continue to be above preplanned amok levels across all stratus, from 2 to 4 levels. However, they are stabilized. For 18 months they are going each and every month of they have stabilized in the last three months. Credit cards been rates continue to be high and payment rates are actually starting to normalize but still well above prepandemic levels. Thank you, miss fraser, please. Thank you very much. Id say that its early days still in terms of seeing the impact of high Interest Rates on the consumer in the states. Fortunately, they entered this period with pretty strong Balance Sheets. But we would anticipate that if Interest Rates remain high, in order to tame inflation, that we will see greater stress, particularly in the lower ficus corps. In credit. And that will also see the Savings Rates coming down further than we have done. Like we are fortunate to have had the consumer and good health entering into this. But we do expect were going to be in for tougher times ahead. I thank, you ive run out of time. And i yield back. Thank you very much. The gentleman from california, mr. Sherman, who is also the chair of the subcommittee on investor protection, entrepreneurship and capital mortgage, is now recognized for five minutes. He is an accountant who understands the inflation as a worldwide phenomenon. Thank you. For the two and a half decades ive been on this committee, we have brought the sec forward to push them, because they were writing regulations that law require them to. Right i want to commend the sec for beginning to deal with that backlog, i dont criticize them for working too hard. The Inflation Reduction Act reduced the federal deficit by 300 billion dollars. Partially ameliorating the inflationary effect of the trump tax cut, which added two trillion dollars to our deficit by cutting taxes for the wealthy and large corporations. And, of course, the Inflation Reduction Act provides tax cuts designed to reduce global warming. Weve got a lot of questions, got a lot of witnesses, theyre designed to be yes or no. Esg investing is for those who want to contribute to society and to the improvement of the environment, which is kind of the exact opposite of giving money to vladimir putin. Mr. Dimon, back in march, politico reported that you were going to mull over the possibility of removing russia from your esg fund sweet. As jp morgan removed russia from its esg sweet . Probably. Can you get back to us with a definitive answer on that . Im going to do it. We clearly have sanctions on russia and belarus, theres a loophole in those sanctions that we dont have an iran or north korea sanctions. That is that the subsidiaries of u. S. Corporations are not legally bound. I hope is that the institutions here wouldnt be exploiting that loophole. This house of representatives and may passed my bill, the russian and belarusian financial sanctions act. Which would block that loophole. Unfortunately, the senate remained somewhat phil dysfunctional. The question is, are you going to exploit that loophole . But ill be more specific. Mr. Dimon, has jpmorgan cut its ties with gazprom and vital . First of all, i wouldnt call them loopholes. The American Government, secretary of treasury i did ask you to respond to my editorialize asian. Just a specific question, have you cut the ties to gas bomb and vital . We are following the instructions of the American Government as i asked us to do it. Mr. Dimon, if the answer no question. You have not cut your ties to gazprom and vital. You continue to own a major stake in the russian bank, spear back. No, we do not own a stake in sberbank, i think thats a mutual fund or somewhere. We have materially cut out some of the inflation id like you to cut all your ties to gazprom and vital. Let me move on to citigroup, have you cut your ties with the toil . Can i say one more thing . Not on my time, you cant. Reclaiming my time. The time belongs to the gentleman from california. You can do a press conference afterwards and comment at you like, not on my time. Have you cut your ties to lukoil and vital . Similar to mr. Dimon, we have been working to our exposures and russia. So, you have not cut your ties yet. Lets move on. A number of the banks here have said that youre going to cut investment in new coal fired electric plants. Ill go down. The question though is, are you going to finance Crypto Mining . Which creates electricity that is then wasted in something that doesnt keep anybodys lights on, doesnt cook anybodys food . Lets go to miss fraser, youre going to be financing Crypto Mining . I do not believe so. Mr. Moynihan . We do not have any. Mr. Scharf . Im not aware of any financing like that. Okay, finally, a Capital Markets question. We have limits on margin leg designed to protect the land, or in this case the lender is you and your systemically important as us. Designed to protect the investor but also to protect the Capital Markets. Thats why, in equity investments, we only allow a 1 to 1 margin. But the total default swap is a loophole that allowed our goes to get 9 to 1 margins. Can you commit now to follow the rules that we provide only 1 to 1 margin . What do you want to use loopholes to provide that 9 to 1 margin . I want to add that, with our cars, the lenders lost well over five billion dollars. Mr. Cecere . We have no relationship with that firm, and do not have to use credit default swabs to avoid the margin limit requirements . Not that im aware of, sir. I believe my time is expired. Thank you very much. The gentleman from michigan, mr. Huizenga, is now recognized for five minutes. Sorry, madam chair, it was my understanding that my colleague mr. Posey whats going next, hes on the screen. Just clarifying before we get going on the time . The gentleman has five minutes, five minutes. But my colleague who is onscreen was supposed to be next in line and is ready, hes in between. The gentleman from florida, mr. Posey, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Mr. Dimon, in late may you told stakeholders to brace yourself for an economic hurricane. What is your current outlook along those lines . I think youve heard, the American Consumer is still an actually rather good shape. Theyre spending money, 10 more than prior years. I have a good Balance Sheet, there that balances are low. Their confidence levels are going, up jobs are plentiful. I think its a good thing that wages have gone up for the lower end. Thats all the good news. That is been met by other forces, which we dont know the full effect of. That is war in ukraine, Oil Prices Going up, Interest Rates going up, inflation, and the worst possible outcome and stack inflation. Those eggs will absolutely cause a slowdown in the economy, increase one point of unemployment. And we dont that this committee can make in terms of improving our nations economic and Financial Wellbeing . I think when youre looking at Something Like inflation, there are really three things to do. Rat which rig increase think spending less re focused on the theres evidence in areas, mortgages and Small Business regulation, some capital regulation, but regulations can actually reduce the burden on businesses and get people to hire more people and produce more products and services. What role did monetary and fiscal policy, especially the feds financing of congressional deficit spending, play in our spiraling inflation . Particularly in food and shelter prices and other components of the core cpi . To give credit where credit is due, i think the government at the right thing early on in the crisis to take dramatic action to reduce the pain of the pandemic. Remember, unemployment went from 4 to 15 three or four months. Since, then we spent, in total, fiscal spending has been six trillion dollars, 30 of the gdp. Which is bigger than any time in history other than world war ii. Huey probably went on for two, long another three or four trillion dollars. And paying the price of too much monetary fiscal stimulus. I dont want to second guess all the people doing that that might have been predictable at the time. Theyre taking the right action to reduce. But i dont think you can spend six trillion dollars are not expect inflation. I dont like to cry over spilled milk, lets do all the things we have to do to fix that then move forward, grow the economy. Which is the best way to reduce inflation and help all our citizens. How likely do you believe it is that the fed will achieve a socalled soft landing, reducing inflation without an unacceptable backline in Economic Activity . I do not like to make forecasts. I dont think ive ever seen anyone forecasts a future properly. I look at probabilities, i think theres a chance, not a big chance, a small chance, of a soft landing. Theres a chance of a mild recession, a chance of a hard recession. Because of the war in ukraine, and the uncertainty that causes in Global Energy supply and food supply, theres a chance it could be worse. I think policy makers should be prepared for the worst, so we take the right actions if and when that happens. Are they merely a rating of past performance . I think we need to make it more clear what these ratings are and what they mean. What do you think our nations near Term Energy Strategy should be in terms of Traditional Energy sources like oil and gas . We arent getting this one right. The world needs 100 Million Barrels, effectively, of oil and gas every day, we needed for ten years. To do, that we need proper investing in the oil and gas complex. Investing in oil and gas complex is good for reducing co2. As weve all seen, because of the high price of oil and gas, particularly for the rest of the world, youve seen everyone going back to coal. Not just poor nations like india, china, indonesia and vietnam. But wealthy nations like germany, france and the netherlands. Co2 is getting worse. We need a proper rules and regulations a government policy to have an effective transition to reduce co2. Keeping allergies are here. Weve all learned that Energy Supply globally is not secure, its still precarious. The United States is self sufficient, we use and produced 10 Million Barrels of oil a day. Many countries dont. There is a sense of Energy Insecurity is enormous, and quite dangerous for them. You see that in germany and the war of russia and ukraine. Thank you for that frank response. My time is expired, i yield back. Thank, you madam chair. Thank you very much. The gentleman from new york, mr. Meeks, also the chair of the House Committee on foreign affairs, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Let me address my first question to mr. Dimon. Jp morgan has committed to releasing a report that is Racial Equity audit by the end of this year. I think that is a critical audit. I want to focus on two aspects of your Racial Equity audit. Jp morgan has noted on its website that workforce will be included in the audit. But it simply states, and i quote, build a more equitable and representative workforce and hold executives accountable, unquote. Can you please explain what that entails . Where is jp morgan conducting this particular piece of the . Audit and what are your plans for ensuring that people of color are hard at entry level positions that are supported and achieving highranking positions, and able to move up the ladder . Im extremely proud of our efforts and diversity. I think the Racial Equity, the 30 billiondollar commitment, thats whats being audited. Its eight billion in mortgages for minorities, four billion for, blazing five billion for Small Businesses, a lot of education, new branches and how am i. Thats what the new audit is for. Theres other efforts, like hiring, training, recruiting. Which arent in the audit but we do report. On youve got to see our progress on that. Well the audit examined jpmorgan partnerships with diverse owned Asset Managers and firms, to build stronger portfolios . Do you have any specific goals for Accountability Measures currently in place . There are, in the Racial Equity, 35 billion dollars in vendor efforts in that. Also vendor efforts outside of that. What is being audited one isnt, wed be happy to report on that too. Which were to having both of those reports. Thank you. One of the things thats extremely important, me i wouldnt be here today without the greatest investment that takes place by the average american, but especially the largest for African Americans, homeownership. I believe its extremely important. Mr. Scharf, ill ask you this question. It is been reported that wells fargo, along with other banks, its like introduces mortars landed business. Including in areas like f h a landing. Can you please explain . The fact is that wells fargo considered this decision to strengthen its mortgage lending businesses. How do you believe it will Impact Communities of color and vulnerable communities who are already struggling to access affordable mortgage programs . Thank, you congressman. I think is important, to first of, all we are committed to the home lending business. We are deeply committed to doing our part to increase black homeownership to our home lending business. Its important to note that the Mortgage Market has changed dramatically. If youre to turn the clock back probably ten or 15 years, you would find most of the banks of here as the largest Mortgage Lenders in the country. Thats not even close to true today. I believe we are the number one Mortgage Lender the country, were now number six. Its not because we purposely dm for size the business. Regulations are inconsistent between banks and not banks. And cost structures are different. The non banks have taken an increasingly larger share of the market. As we have continued to try to focus on providing home lending products, both for our customers but in the communities we serve. To the extent that our Mortgage Business does get smaller from, here i will ensure that we are doing everything we can to ensure that we are continuing to lend to those most in need. Whether theyre within communities of color or those which are more racial and ethnically diverse. Thats something were going to track. We are very aware of it. Let me just emphasize how important. Because i focused on closing the wealth gap, and the way you close the wealth gap, starting out, its homeownership. In our area, we talked about how most markets across, owning a home is an appreciating asset. You buy the house and rent bicker, because one isnt appreciating asset in the other is a depreciating asset. So, making sure that that opportunity continues in our communities is extremely important. To hear that the banks are shrinking that is concerning to me. That opens up to where else you can get a mortgage on an equitable basis. Im almost out of time, but mr. Moynihan, i was concerned about Climate Change and the reporting of scope one and scope to emissions and wear material. I think your comments that you would support scope one and scope to and ran material scope three. And that of, times im not gonna get a chance to get an answer to it. Id like to get an answer about can you please explain what bank of americas position is, with respect to the materiality of scope three missions and one say farmer should include. Just do that in writing, id appreciate seeing that. The gentlemans time has expired. Thank you. The gentleman from michigan, mr. Huizenga, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. To our newbies, welcome. To our frequent flyers, mr. Scharf, but moynihan, dimon, fraser, welcome back. One more punch on the punch credit you get a free cup of coffee. Interesting enough, youve been here more than gary gensler has. I wish we would pay as much attention to the actual regulators, the folks, by the way, who we have constitutional duty to have oversight of, then those who the regulators are supposed to regulate. Mr. Dimon and miss fraser, i want to give you a brief moment. Do you comply with u. S. And International Sanctions . I think that is the implication earlier, when you are interrupted. Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are u. S. And International Sanctions, got it. Last time those of you who are returned members and return players, you will remember i asked everybody what their one issue was that they thought was going to be the biggest barrier. On mr. Moynihan, you said the economy. Fraser, you touched on cybersecurity. Mr. Scharf, you touched on cyber as well. Mr. Dimon, you talked about public policy. Id like to give you a moment to clarify that. This is multifaceted, the various elements to that. But if you could just lend a little color to that, id appreciate it. Pleasure. Public policy, i think america has worked in the last years its been 2 , it should be 3 , we should aspire to do more. That lack of growth has hurt, i think, Household Income by 50 to 20,000. By the end of the 20, years it will have lifted up all our, citizens will have paid for a lot of what we want. We dont strive for growth. If you look at why it wasnt 2 , which is why its important public policy, its our bad infrastructure plan, it is our inner city schools, education success regulation, its Expensive Health care. We have the best health care in the world but we have the most expensive. 50 million uninsured. Successive litigation, which is 1 more than the rest of the world. I go on and on and on. Mortgages, you want to make mortgages more accessible to minorities and lower mortgages, reduce the burden of regulation, break down the cost and make it more accessible. A man, reclaiming my time on that. As a form, or long ago, licensed realtor and someone whose family is still involved in housing and construction, please for the love of everything that is fully do not offer a 50year mortgage. This will do nothing, absolutely nothing, to build wealth or build equity. All you will be doing is having a long term rental. Because you folks are going to be getting all the interest. Homeownership is the key, i agree with my friends from new york on this, but it is not just extending payments. We have to get at the root cause of white housing is not affordable. Mr. Dimon, very quickly, he said in your testimony our success and accomplishments are fended and our commitment to our shareholders. Obviously, that seems to have been shifting. Id say the securities and Exchange Commission and others who have done an about face on shareholder proposals with new staff guidance and those kinds of things seem to have a different take. Im curious, how are you balancing the shift in this . You have 15 seconds. Well still focus on building the best company by serving shareholders, employees and customers. And we will have to navigate whatever the new sec rules are. Mr. Rogers, were going to touch on mergers. I would, by the way, positive that mergers are more because of doddfrank been greed or nefarious motives. In fact, mr. Dimon an eye on a shareholder call one time said that doddfrank was good for business and that consolidation that was going on. Mr. , rogers would you agree that Retail Banking its a highly competitive business . Yes, representative, very competitive. And your bank, truist, its a result of a murder in 2019, correct . That is correct. Do you believe that that merger allowed you to increase or decrease the accessibility to banking for your customers. I think the merger has afforded as a great opportunity for accessibility for our customers. That was never more apparent than during the pandemic, when we are able to do 17 million worth of loans, be the fourth largest ppp lender. Do 120,000 loans and 80,000 to Small Businesses. We wouldnt been able to do that with our prior scale. All right, i appreciate, that i have seconds remaining here. I do believe that the policies weve had at the federal government, including and leading with the spending that we have done, have led the fed to this spot. Whether probably need to do 100 point basis increase, certainly that 75 points. Otherwise, were going to find ourselves in a worse inflationary situation and we have to stop the spending and get our policy house in order. With that, i yield back. The gentleman from georgia, mr. Scott, whos also the chair of the house agriculture committee, is now recognized for five minutes. And knows a lot about doddfrank. Yield to the gentleman. Thank you for your kind remarks, chairman. Protecting our consumers from this online fraud and theft has now become the number one issue facing the security of our great Financial System. One of the things that several of us have been working on in this committee is bringing together public and private partnerships to address this. Because this technology is overwhelming. You can see how so many of our consumers have become victims. Im delighted to know about the Public Private partnership that is going on now between f s and the Wharton School of finance at the university of pennsylvania, over in philadelphia. Mr. Rogers, you have expressed your support for Public Private sector collaborations to help us protect our customers from things like this electric payment scam. What do you mind telling us, how do you save our public Bank Regulators and our private sector Financial Institutions working together to ensure that we have federal law that will provide Electronic Transfer protection for our d frosted consumers, in our great nation . Thank, you chair scott, thank you for leading on this very important issue of the fraud as being experienced by all of our consumers. Its being perpetuated by organized criminal activity. That got exacerbated and accentuated during the pandemic. We have some existing role models and cybersecurity already, where we coordinate as Banking Institutions and we work with our various agencies. Once that they have on a cyber case, we communicate that immediately. I think we have that same opportunity with fraud. Very good. Tell me exactly, how would you propose that we reimburse victims who have been scammed into initiating and Electronic Payment Transfer . How would we reimburse . Well, chair, we do reimbursed today. We do reimburse for those who have been scammed, particularly those who have been scammed with our banks name used in particular. We are very consistent in that. But i, think in addition to reimbursement, we need to be focused on eliminating the fraud and fighting the criminal activity. Mr. Dimon, may i come to you, please . One of my biggest priorities has been reducing the number of on banked families in our nation. What is your institution doing to get more of the unbanked population into the traditional regulated Banking System . 25 of our branches in l and my neighborhoods. We have a new thing called a community branch, which is much larger, we welcome in the population. Things Like Community managers if you walk down the street. Financial seminars about mortgages, saving money, opening checking accounts. Invite the community in, tell them to come as you are, learn about these services. He seemed to be working quite well. Part of the occ bank on program, the reach program, i do think these programs are starting to have an effect. Also, let me ask you this. What is your institution, Jpmorgan Chase, what is your bank doing to overcome the mistrust that many people, one of our biggest known problems with decreasing the number of unbanked families in our nation you is mistrust of traditional banks like each of yours. What is your institution doing to overcome this mistrust of large banks . And if there are any of you others who are addressing this issue, please pipe in. I would like you to come visit some of those Community Branches in harlem, south side of chicago, crenshaw, new orleans, ward five, word six over here. You see what were doing. Local vendors, local, folks are all coming in. We knew tens of thousands of seminars, we try to make people very comfortable. We have products this have greater signed with very low, fees no overdraft and things like that. I totally agree with you that that is part of the job. Thank you. I just encourage and i really appreciate, madam chair lady, this hearing. Thank you very much. The gentleman from houma, mr. Lucas, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chair for holding this hearing, thank you to the witnesses for appearing today. The Financial Institutions you all represent, and the u. S. Banking system at large, plays a vital role in communities by protecting savings and delivering quick and secure payments and providing access to credit. Banks will have to help their communities, their businesses and their consumers, whether the intense economic insecurity were in today. I guess my first question is, inflation remains at a 40 year high. Businesses and consumers are still grappling with commodity price swings, elevated energy prices, tight labor market and supply chain disruptions. U. S. Real gdp declined of the first and Second Quarters of 2022. The Federal Reserve will again raise Interest Rates today, i suspect. Which is designed to discourage consumption business identity. How are you advising your customers on how to prepare for these conditions . Ill start with you, mister moynihan. What are you telling your folks out there . I think, with the amount of uncertainty, job number one is to deal with inflation. Inflation has impacts on, as my colleague said, on the people who can afford it less. So, people, the impact on the Mortgage Market of increasing redfield like it, but the reality is it needs to be done to slow down housing appreciation. Because 20 per year housing appreciation is not a good thing for people to keep up. With that job number one. We talk to our clients about the same, thing the federal rates raised to get inflation, and operating as a consumer, Small Business, you understand what that impact is. Its kind of an impact flying demand, as having an impact of raise your cost to debt and you should be making sure Business Plans and personal plans adjust for that. Anyone else wish to touch on that . Okay. I remember the economic suffering we endured in the early 19 80s. I was in college in just beginning to farm on my own. The fed ahead of the strangle, thats the appropriate phrase, high inflation out of the economy. I worry that the reckless policies and excessive stimulus weve seen make the feds job even more difficult. Turning to question number two. During a recent speech, the fed vice chairman for the provision, michael barr, discussed how the Federal Reserve is considering how to implement risk related scenario analysis. I worry the regulations that could begin to use climate stress tests to shape and enhanced Capital Requirements, i worry about those. They could have long Term Economic consequences. Climate scenario design and associated at remain considerable obstacles as well as the high potential for political political position. Mr. Dimon, did you discuss your perspective of the argument that the fed should tie climate risk with increased Capital Requirements . Please. Just for the folks here, we do 100 stress tests a week. We are quite worried about, it we always have been, and we always did. The fed does one a year and its only one type. We do multiple different types. Among the stresses weve always had, hurricanes, storms, floods, things like that. To be extended three like that, id say yes. To the extent for social, public purpose is to have banks to use on the different on how you find its gas, absolutely not. If they did that it would have an effect. Does kind of come back to the old principle that banks are about collecting capital, pressing it and distributing it appropriately and pressing it there. I think that is arbitrators. One last question, state owned chinese banks get a. D. To play a Large International role. The Chinese Communist party is intimately involved in the Banking System and have the ability to influence banks leading, landing activities, and credit allocations. Could you discuss the challenges this creates in terms of global competition for u. S. Institutions . Back to you, mister dimon. Its a very good point. We have to compete with Global Chinese banks, the four largest are now the largest in the world in terms of assets. They also operated 50 or 60 countries, which they didnt do 20 or 30 years ago. They have less Capital Requirements that we do. They enjoy government support, the government wants them to succeed. And i do look at that is not todays competition tomorrows competition. All the banks are play a different role in the ecosystem. But to bank Big Companies and countries and things around the world, you need big banks. If you want to bank at bowing, you have to operate in the 50 countries which they operate, stuff like that. So, im going to do everything in my power to make sure we could be with the best chinese banks of the world. Its very important in the future of america that america maintains its financial supremacy. Just like almost anything else. Thank you. Madam chair, i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you very much. The gentleman from texas, mr. Green, who is also the chair of the subcommittee on oversight and investigations, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Madam chair, the great maya angelo summarized the essence of my very existence when she proclaimed, bringing the gifts my ancestors gave him the dream and the hope of the sleeve. I proudly say that i am 80 sentiment of enslaved people. Slavery existed in this country for some 246 years. The value of 246 years of unpaid slave labor has been estimated to be as much as 14. 2 trillion dollars. Lets examine for just a moment each makeup banks in my involvement in financing slavery. Truist, financial corporation, has assets of approximately 532 billion dollars. Five predecessor institutions engaged in financing slavery. Pnc Financial Services corporation, assets of approximately 534 billion dollars. A predecessor loaned 135,000 to a railroad loaned 135,000 to a Railroad Company that used a slave labor in 1852. U. S. Bank corp, assets of approximately 582 billion dollars. A predecessor institution made a loan secured by enslaved people. Wells fargo, as its of approximately one point 71 trillion dollars. Predecessor Bank Accepted enslaved people as collateral in at least 24 transactions, took temporary possession of enslaved people from defaults on loans. Conducted business with the confederacy. City corp, as of approximately one point 72 trillion dollars. Provided a chart of mergers pursuant to a request we made and acquisitions over a course of 210 years, that is lengthy and complex, but didnt give us a detailed report. Staff has asked for more information, hasnt received it to the state. More to be said on that at a later time. Bank of america, assets of approximately 244 trillion dollars. Predecessor bank secured a mortgage with real and personal property. The bore was property included 13 enslaved people. A predecessor bank agreed to a 10,000 dollar mortgage to u. S. Secretary of state john forsyth, with 40 enslaved people as collateral. Jpmorgan chase, assets of approximately 3. 38 trillion dollars. Predecessor banks accepted 13,000 enslaved people as collateral for loans. Came into possession of 1250 enslaved people from defaults on loans. In the case of Jpmorgan Chase, there has been an apology. Publicly made. And an announcement of a five billion dollar scholarship, which amount to about 384. 61 per enslaved person, these want to people in louisiana. I have a question for each of you. Question is this, if you believe your bank has done enough to atone for your involvement with slavery, kindly raise a hand into the air. Let the record reflect that no hand has been raised. Next question. Will you publicly publish an atonement plan before your next appearance before the committee . And atonement plan. Youve indicated that youve not done enough. Will you publish an atonement plan on or before your next visit . If so, raise your hand. Let the record reflect that not one bank has proposed and atonement plan. Lets move to another area quickly. I dont perceive either of you to be a person of color. Have yourself identified as a person of color . Raise your hand. Not one person raises a hand. In the next ten years, will they be a person of color to head your institution . If so, raise your hand. Truist bank, that is the only one, i think. Thank you, i yield back. Thank you very much. The gentleman from kentucky, mr. Barr, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Mr. Dimon, in your april letter to shareholders, you called for a new Marshall Plan to ensure Energy Security for the United States and our european allies who are overly dependent on russian energy. I couldnt agree more, which is why im so skeptical of the esg and the weaponization of financial regulations designed to discriminate against American Energy companies. Thats why i oppose the imposition of european style climate stressed tests on u. S. Banks, requiring banks to hold more capital when lending to fossil energy or carbon intensive firms. The fcc is flawed Climate Disclosure rule, which would politicize capital allocation, redirect capital away from American Energy firms and steer Retail Investors into higher, feel less diversified and lower return as she investments. I commend you for recognizing in your letter, that quote, National Security demands Energy Security for ourselves and our allies overseas. And for rejecting the demands of climate alarmists who have called on you to immediately cut off financing for volatile energy firms. My specific question relates to coal. Since coal still accounts for 22 of all electrical generation in the United States and you write in your letter that, quote, using gas to diminish coal consumption is an actionable way to reduce co2 emissions expeditiously. Mr. Dimon, do you believe that a coal company with a strong Balance Sheet, little or no debt and a demonstrable tracker couldve credit worthiness should have equal access to conventional Bank Financing as a Natural Gas Company was similar financial characteristics . Yes. Well your institution commit to the continued financing of american coal producers who are still needed and will be for sometime, to supply the most affordable and reliable sources of base load power to the American Economy . We are working with the responsible coal producers and utility companies, many of whom, by the way, dramatically reduce co2 as we speak. Mr. Moynihan, ill spare you similar questions. But as you and i have disguised, notwithstanding your net zero commitment, i appreciate your focus that job number one is on addressing inflation. To lower the rate of inflation, we cannot rely exclusively on fed tightening. We must also address the supply side, that means more, not less, financing of American Energy exploration and production. I urge all of the ceos here to adopt a similarly measured approach to financing fossil energy. Mr. Moynihan, though, my question pertains to the fccs question already literary framework that applies to murder transactions involving one or more insured depository institutions. The fbi seized action signals a highly regulatory resistant to bank mergers, presumably on the grounds that consolidation of the banking industry, which has significantly reduce the number of smaller banking organizations and it creates a number of large and systemically important baking organizations, is a threat to financial stability. My question, mr. Moynihan, is which of the following institutions with a more formidable competitor to bank of america . Is it suntrust operating alone . Is it bibi and t operating alone . Or is that the combination of the two institutions, now known as truist. Undoubtedly the combination of the two institutions as a more formidable competitor. Mr. Rogers, since i invoked the name of your institution, which you cleared a comment . Now that mr. Moynihan has named me of a strong competitor of his business. I take it from the responses of both of these gentlemen that it overly resistant emerges by the fdic could actually diminish competition at that ge save level and therefore undermine financial stability. Final question to all of, you anyone who wants to chime in. Do you assess the impact of a cbdc as positive or negative for our autonomy . Specifically, how would a c b d c impact your deposit base, therefore your ability to deploy capital to the economy. Mr. Dimon . If its done, it will be fine. I dont trust it will be properly done, youre not gonna have the Federal Reserve running coal centers. Its on board banking centers, than the actual token that moves the money. Fraud, risk, alert, services, call branches, ar and, see are a. Properly done its a problem. Improperly done, you will have an issue. Miss frazier, my remaining, time increase Capital Requirements, vice chair barr suggest he wants to review this. What would that do to your customers to repair supply chains . Your ability to repair capital and fix inflation . Given that we passed our stress test, which would be a test of whether we have sufficient capital, which is important for safety and stability, and the question becomes when you increase capital above that limit that could have a very detrimental effect on ones ability to land right at the point when the Capital Markets are shutting down. Thank, you i yield back. Gentlemans time has expired. The gentleman from missouri, mr. Cleaver, also the chair of the subcommittee on housing, Community Development and insurance, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. Let me express some appreciation for the fact that some of you have already taken steps to make corrections as it relates to your banking in distressed communities. Its all of you probably know, and 1977, Congress Passed a cra act, Community Reinvestment act. We did so because we were concerned about banks that were using the positives even in some distressed neighborhoods to fund out of state, and in some cases international, lending activities. At the expense of addressing the local areas. So, the cra was created. We have not had any upgrades to the cra since 1995, i think it is that. Is there anyone of you who believes that we do not need to update the cra act . You make me happy. Making me happy unit, because im going to keep going toward happiness. The thing is now on, are all of you interested in and willing to look at ways in which we can increase cra . Even to the extent that we can get a credit for housing, Affordable Housing and urban areas. Is anyone willing, or very interested, in doing that kind of program . My joy level continuing. To rise. Yes. Yes. Thank you very much. Now, to jump over a little. The role of Non Bank Lenders is increased, as you all know. And we have to deal with it dramatically since our 2008 economic to apps. Non bank lenders now originate more mortgages in the United States, almost 69 , of all mortgages in 2020. Non banks also originate for out of every five f h a loans, which are more likely to be originated in loan lower income communities and borrowers. Between 2010 and 2016, the f h a share of loans originated by the three largest banks fell from 43 to five. Now, can any of you, are any of you, willing to explain the retreat from fha loans . What are your banks doing to extend mortgages to moderate and lower income borrowers . Theres anyone yes . Ill start. You can go. Having learned our lesson in fha practice, a lot of us have brought our percentages down, as you said. But we replaced it with programs veto on our, and put on our own Balance Sheet that are safe and center the consumer. That provide down payment assistance up to 70,000 on a loan. Thats what we did to offset it. I wouldnt look at fha va as only loans going into the communities, et cetera. But the risk of doing that business, the pushback risk, servicing it, it just wasnt worth, it honestly. We still do five, 6 of our loans in the fha va program, to help with first time home buyers. But we did progress on the outside where we can work with the consumer, have counselors and build great programs that will do more for the consumer, we believe. Congressman, we work with fha and have done so. We also put our loans on our own Balance Sheet. Fha, in my view, needs to be revamped. Today there is a limit, because we become something called an Interested Party where we are only able to contribute to 6 of the proceeds of the loan, either in Closing Costs or and down payment assistance, by the regulation. So, when we do that, we go beyo