It should also be noted whenever youve mentioned jonathans name, that his wife betsy is here and she has risen to the top echelon journalism in and of her own right. Um, something very curious happened last night that that does not happen enough in politics anymore or last night bunch of journalists and politicos got together for dinner and had fun and lots of stories were told was lots of lots of laughter. And it was fun. And then despite the different ideologies and platforms, it was it was a really good time. There. Also some arguing and some disputes and, some finger pointing and most of that was brought about our our very own cattle prod. Allan lange and you have the good fortune of him being your moderator for that. Alan. Alan is one of those people that when people say, what does alan do for a living nobody really knows and and its not because he its not that he that he doesnt anything its that he does so much he has owned several successful businesses involved in economic and job creation. He has also been the owner and. Publisher of one of the most preeminent media organizations in the state. That is your allpolitics hes also a bestselling he wrote in 2009, he published king of torts too much critical acclaim. But his real claim to fame is that he is the husband, holly lange, the ever leader in our state. That is a power couple. But she puts the power in the power couple down and alan will be first to admit that, im sure. So with that allan. Very good. Thank you so. And paula youll look under your seat. There are two 200 bills taped up under the under the bottom. So thank you for that. Well, ive been a huge fan. The book festival, obviously, since its inception this is the panel that i circle year this is the one i dont miss what i call the big Political Panel and so its an honor for me to be moderating it for sure especially with the again, as paul said, the caliber of people weve got, the sponsors have been thanked already. So ill skip that. But i do want to introduce these gentlemen individually sitting to my immediate left, David Drucker is a Senior Correspondent for the washington examiner. He focuses on campaigns and National Political, his most book is in trumps shadow the battle 2024 and future of gop. As Jonathan Martin told us in an earlier display, the books make sure Everybody Knows too by them. So please do that. Prior to joining examiner, he was a reporter for roll call in washington, covered california politics, including the governator, arnold, a native of southern california. He actually managed a family run business before he got into political journalism, which has that that endears him to greatly. I think thats an invaluable for somebody in the National Political sphere is a contributing writer for vanity fair and appears regularly on cable news. A nationally syndicated radio program. So, David Drucker, welcome. Jonathan martin is a Senior Writer for the New York Times. Political analysts for cnn and coauthor of the New York Times, best. This will not pass trump biden in the battle for americas future that he with fellow New York Times writer alexander. He also coauthored the end of line romney and obama, 34 days at the side of the election with glenn thrush back in 2012. Join the times and after working for a Senior Writer in politico and his works been all over the place. New republic national. Washington post. Wall street journal. Hes a native arlington, virginia and a graduate of the city college, where he was rumored to be defensive lineman on the football team. And then were sorry that stuart stevens, who was originally scheduled to be here he has lots of mississippi ties from here started with thad in Political Campaign in the in the seventies kind of high watermark politically working mitt romney in 2012 as his top Campaign Adviser his most recent book and we certainly regret that he cant be here due to covid but its most recent book it was all i have a Republican Party became donald trump and he offered that in 2020. We found out about thursday night. And just like spectacular stroke of fate steve hayes was here and thats like looking on your bench and like, oh Roger Clemens is ready to start for us. So we have we have a great great honor of having steve join us. He is known in meals, media circles as a founder of the dispatch. Work has appeared all over the place. Washington salon, new york post, been all over tv, seen mclaughlin group, fox. We might talk a little about that later. Msnbcs cnbc, cspan. Hes worked at the athens Editor National journal, editor in chief of the standard, and he also authored a book which we will talk about a little bit in 2009 called cheney the untold story of americas most powerful and controversial vice president. So before we get into the meat of the panel, this is, you know, politics being what it is now. Ive asked by the organizers of the book festival to read a brief disclaimer this wont take me just a second, but i think its important. Just everybody kind of knows are the ground is on behalf mississippi book festivals board its staff its in sponsors. We welcome you to this discussion the political media or as i like call it, the state of the state of the state we are in. So here are the disclaimers. This is an event, ideas and controversial themes and, topics that touch us all will and should be discussed. The following words or phrases may be invoked or inserted. The moderator or panelist, without warning at any time, including but not limited to trump. Pelosi. Biden clinton. Hunter, maralago. January six. Republican Democrat Impeachment raid indictment acquittal conviction laptop fake news hoax Mainstream Media right wing conspiracy deep state maga please prepare yourselves according us the comfort of safe spaces and emotional support animals during our visit should be shot at the listeners discretion. Listeners are advised that thoughts will be provoked, assumptions will be challenged, and perspectives on the same set of facts will be analyzed through multiple political lenses, often leading to varied and sometimes even contradictory conclusions. And thats a good thing. We ask all gathered in this great Supreme Chamber and those watching on cspan, and particularly those trolling us relentlessly in real time on twitter to please be civil. Please be advised during our time today that any screaming, shouting outbursts, interjections, threats, moaning, wailing, sign waving, flag waving, snake handling, throwing of objects, sloganeering, use of bullhorns, tear writing, or other impolite manifestations of generally not being aware that other humans exist and they dont agree with you or result in you being asked to leave the proceedings. We will do our best to leave our to leave a few minutes at the end for you to politely asked your questions of these smart people in an orderly at the podium when recognize us to speak your piece. So please save up for them. Please send your cell phones to stone or do not disturb. No refunds will be made under any circumstances. Cover up tours. You get what you pay for, and who knows . You might even learn a thing or two. So to start. Certainly the two books here want to start with david and then jonathan. Just very quickly i mean trump is is certainly the central part of the theme here. Theres theres not much avoiding that but talk about the origin story. You know, were these the books that you actually set out to write and just talk about how you came to want to write about the, you know, about this book. Thank you all. And thanks, everybody, for being here im excited to be here with jonathan and steve, two people who often keep me up at night because i wonder what story theyre getting that im not. Being a journalist is nerve. You interim shadow was interesting in that it started out and primarily as a book about what i saw a Shadow Campaign for the 2024 president ial nomination. On the republican side on well before anybody knew whether trump would win lose, lose but claim he won. And normally the etiquette in both parties is if youve got an incumbent running they they run you wait for them to win or lose and. Then the next day can be all about you and. You full steam ahead on the next race. Nobody with trump waited. I think its because he was such a unique that. They all wondered if he might just decide to go home to new york, which was his home at the time. And any moment, and they needed to be ready. And so there were all of these battles going on and all of this very intense prep work to get a president ial ready for 2024, beginning in some cases before election day 2016. And the day after trump was inaugurated president january 2017. And so thats how it started. And then ultimately evolved into the his impact the Republican Party and whether you like trump trump or undecided but i doubt there are any of those. I think one thing is clear. I he represents a generational break the reagan era of the party he has what you will see republican candidates running for president going forward. Even if he runs, but especially if he does not. You know, most of my life, because im old enough every four years, a bunch of republicans running around telling me they were the next Ronald Reagan and they were arguing who was the real next Ronald Reagan. And i dont think youre going to see that for the foreseeable future, if ever. And what youre going to see in the short is i am the next trump. Yes. Yeah, some will be subtle about it and theyll tell you, well, look, im going to give you best of trump without the worst of trump others are just to be very overt and say, im going to give you the best of trump with the best of trump, because there is no worst of trump and it definitely he changed by winning the presidency in 2016. What republic voters many of them the base especially expects from their leaders. You know, before trump, you could you know trumps like this character out of the movie where the guy goes on tv and says everything that everybody always wanted to hear, but say because it wouldnt work. And before trump, somebody would run. Its like trump and everybody go. Thats amazing. I wish somebody would say that. Nobody can say that. Theyll lose. Well, trump says it all and acts the he acts and he wins. And so you try telling committed republican voter who voted for trump twice and wants him to run or you know undecided but they like him wish he would have won in 2020. Try telling him this doesnt work. You can say he lost in 2020. Republicans lost the house they lost the senate, but he won the presidency. And he came actually close, even though he lost handily, really came close to winning it again. When you look at the numbers in the six swing states that mattered in that race and so they want more of that. They people who fight, they want people who challenge the system or just basically take a sledgehammer to the system and they think that it works. And it doesnt mean good in a general election. I would argue that, especially as a change agent, trump is no longer. And so i dont know that his act wear the same if he tries this a third time. But republican certainly liked what they saw and a of them would be happy to see it again. Even though im sure well get into this. Its a little bit more than that, but that is what trumps interim shadow became it became forward looking book about whats next i get asked all the time as a political reporter whats next now what are they going to do to. I tried to write that hopefully some of you think worked but thats where i started, where i ended up. Okay, jonathan, talk a little bit about the origin story of this will not pass on first of all thanks for having me paul. Thank you for the introduction and shout out to my wife Betsy Fisher Martin whos a as paul mentioned, a great journalist and in her own right. Its fun to be back in jackson and be in these august surroundings here. I would love you to pick up the book. I think were sold out outside here. So if you want to get it online on amazon or your Favorite Local bookstore, please do that today. Wed be grateful we out. Alex and i did. And im sorry alex couldnt be here. Mike gray co author and friend alex. I started out with the idea of 2020 is going to be a really interesting campaign, a memorable campaign, perhaps even historic campaign. We should do a big book on it and then as 2020 went on and as you all know, because you lived it, there was this cascade of events in 2021 after the other that made clear that this was a Campaign Like no other. This was a year like no other. And in then, of course, the election ended and we didnt have a concession, you might recall. And so at that point we realized that we couldnt do Traditional Campaign both because, you know, the campaign really didnt end and there was no natural place to conclude the book. And then after january sixth it became vividly clear we had to do something more profound and consequential, hopefully endure. And that was to capture this moment in american history. We knew at that point that we were living historic times, that people were going to study this ten years, 20 years, 50 years down the road, and that we had to sort of capture 20, 20 and 21 what happened . Why in america to the brink, why is this country sort of enduring this crisis of democracy and . Try to account for that. And thats what we did with this book is get inside both parties offer more light than try to illuminate rather than to burn about this period. Its our belief that we live in a a time of endless political opinion, izing and commentary. Look, you dont have to go further than your Facebook Page or your twitter account to find somebody offering an opinion about politics right, far right, far left, everywhere in between. Well, theres not a lot of in these times we think its reported accounts of politics information, news, sort of behind the scenes information gathering about how people in politics are are acting. And so we wanted to do that with, this book. And, you know, we kind of that theres no lack books out there you just go to your bookstore and go to the Current Affairs section and youll see books from team or team blue and you can get any sort of number of those books that are, you know, standing up one side or attacking the other. But theres not a lot of in those sections are, we think, the kind of rapport that authoritative account on that we we hope we offered in this book. Its not just about President Trump our cover President Biden do it not just about president s, but also congress. Theres not a lot of books that sort of Cover Congress like we do. And lastly we cover, i think are a lot about the country. We get of washington governors, mayors. They live through 2020 and 2021 as well. And so think its a pretty comprehensive account of this period of crisis in american politics and you didnt write a book about this period of time, but obviously youve youve written a lot and on a lot. And so you put yourself in put yourself in context with regards kind of the end of trump term in the end of trumps term. And then going into january six and ill just pick up on on what both david and jonathan said in first down thanks for me. Pinch it roger. Clemens wasnt much of a hitter, but youll probably get that. Hell probably that for me. The you know i didnt write a book about this period. I was busy having a magazine that i run get shut down Weekly Standard and the dearly departed Weekly Standard, god rested. So and had been a at fox news for more a decade and found my way out of fox news so a lot of Interesting Times i did live a lot of the things that these these father are talking about but i want to just underscore one of the things that they said. I think one of the reasons were in the situation that were in as a country is because we dont have enough of the kinds of books and the kinds of reporting that jonathan talked about. The david and jonathan both have done. You know, we that that new company that we started is called the dispatch and we started it basically. I mean, we used like some of the same exact language in our manifesto that you just use more light than he reporting facts. First, we live in a world of abundant opinion. Everybody an opinion many people want you to know what their opinion is. And the point of the problem is, especially given the speed information these days is everybody to rush out with an opinion quickly and then rather than back off from that opinion, they try to backfill it. They try to support it with arguments that may or may not be true. That may or may not be accurate. So what we try to do with the dispatch is slow the news cycle down so were okay waiting a day or two. Its a strange position to in with some of our younger journalists whove been trained to to crank things out and get it. We still want to get it first. We still want to break news. But theyll come to me and ill say lets wait. Lets wait. Day or two. Lets try to understand whats going on, make a couple more calls, find things out and its you know, its its sort of a new shouldnt be a new approach to journalism. But it is a new approach to journalism and just picking up on davids final point about the eagerness of seeing of republicans, of seeing somebody who will fight. I think thats that explains a lot of what weve seen over the past five years seven years. If you look back to 2006, we lived an unprecedented time of political volatility. Every single election from 2006 until 2020 has been a change, except for one thats 2012, 2006. So democrats take the house, 2008 was Barack Obamas election. 2010 was the Republican Tea Party movement. 2012 was the exception that proves the rule. 2014 republicans can solid. David their power. 2016, of course, was the election where electorate said no, we really meant it. We really want change. Then of course 2018 and 2020 and on republican side in particular, i think voters saying we just want somebody to fight. And if you look back at the tea period, i think people like me got wrong. I look at the tea party and it was about two things. It was about Smaller Government and fighting. I thought it was more about government. People were really dedicated, reducing the size and scope of of government. And i now look back and it seems entirely clear that it was much more about fighting, much about Smaller Government, because i think we have two parties in this country who dont care much about Smaller Government, which is frustrating somebody like me who does care a lot about Smaller Government. Yeah well and so, i mean, again, i think up on kind of the essential mission of trump in 2016 or on halloween of 16, what, four days before the election, i think see other five, 35, 38 are seen had an 85 clinton 4 chance that clinton was going to win. I mean, just like the whole political media class, just kind of split early, misfired on call, you know, colin, what was going to happen and again, you know, in retrospect again, not completely easy to see you know, the question i want to put to you, you know, at the time, i mean, Donald Donald trump, the essential trump is that he that a reaction to what was there what was the kind of the inevitability of Hillary Clinton or was it its what is this was his tongue. The thing i well, i, i think in hindsight, you know, as i watched trump rise and 15 and 16, some thing i dont mean run me the wrong way in a partizan sense but something was telling me he shouldnt be doing this. Well, but he is doing as well. Every smart political strategist i talked to assures me it wont last and it kept lasting. So by the time we get back, i remember the night of the access tape i was on a nationals baseball nats park and. The press release is start coming out from republicans saying, you know, get rid of him and i was actually surprised at that and i didnt even then i theres still time for the dust to settle i think what happened with trump is one he was running he was the ultimate change in a race versus clinton who just not be a change agent in the same way jeb bush could be a change agent because were dynastic families at that time connected to people that had been running country and had participated in the country. Jeb bush is a governor of florida. Hillary clinton as a senator, first lady. Before that, thats number one. Right. And often in these races, as steve mentioned, it is about change when youre an incumbent its a tough thing to how do you say more of the same while still being for change, but i think what happened in the 21st century and this particularly in hindsight on my part, it doesnt me that brilliant is that the country went through an attack on its own soil for the First Time Since the war of 1812. We were at war in afghanistan we were at war in iraq. The iraq war in particular did not go well until it finally did go well. We suffered what refer to as the Great Recession that came very close to being a worldwide catastrophic depression. And people began to look at institutions and all of the smart state women that we had been electing, at least for most of my lifetime. And they thought to themselves, people arent so smart. Ive been voting for the people supposed to vote for. And i dont mean this in a sense of somebody told me what to do people were saying to themselves well ive been voting for these people because i think theyre pretty smart and that they act like leaders and look where its gotten us. Thats one of the reasons barack obama elected. Here you have. Hes barely out of the state. Senator, illinois. Hes young. He doesnt get i dont mean this pejoratively, but he its not like got a wealth of Foreign Policy expense or a wealth of experience managed a major economy. His claim to fame ultimately and he said this in a debate in an interview is that well ive managed my campaign, which in retrospect was a pretty brilliant campaign. He should get credit for that. But said, so what . Maybe hes got better judgment. And they said with trump in the right battleground states, in the right counties where it mattered, notwithstanding the popular vote, you know what . Okay, he doesnt act like i prefer my politicians to act and i dont know if he knows everything, but, you know, he says hes going to do it differently. What have we got to lose . And so when there is such a lack of faith in institutions and government and people like me, so im reporting, you know story and youre like, so what . Who what do we care what you report when you have that the as the cultural zeitgeist in the country, youre going to get in this day and age especially a candidate like trump who had universal name and was so good at managing the media. You can get a trump and i think ultimately that is where it came from. And i will say as political reporters and jonathan, you spoke to this earlier today which i thought was smart it always gets back to voters you have to understand where voters are and what is driving them or you will miss what is happening. And you look at the rise. Trump and whether, again, you, him or you dont like him, he rose because voters decided they wanted him and he lost because enough voters in the right decided they didnt want him anymore. It always starts with voters. Yeah. And you cant you cant totally absolve of the that they make. I think part of the reason President Trumps ascent was so shocking was because was a notion certainly in the sort of political class, both parties. I think that that cant happen here like we had, you know, the sort of rise of a strongman profile that happens somewhere else. That doesnt happen in america where, you know, that sort a kind lets you know appealing to, you know, at times demagoguery and an obvious man profile of ighalo and can fix it that thats what happens overseas. And i think that failure imagination that it can happen here too is part of the reason why there was that doubt that he could win. Yeah i mean i think theres a theres another book out by tim, whos a former republican political consultant turned, id say, very harsh critic of donald trump. And as he talks about this period. He he basically says what donald trump did was he gave voice to the comment sections of website and, you know, news news organizations. And he tells some about the rise of breitbart as an alternative to to other parts of the media and when trump would do this most of the more established political journalists and established consultants politicos on both sides as jonathan kind of looked at this as and thought nobody believes with this guy saying in actually a lot of people believe what this guy was saying and i think that was why was surprising to people. This was somebody who was saying things and really was was inyourface to the political establishment most broadly and if you go back and you look at im trying to think of the you remember the stand with rand moment rand paul goes and he takes the senate floor and he gives a speech. And its about its, you know, droning. And hes worried that are going to be drowned in starbucks or something. And thats sort of the argument and i remember watching real time because it was like it was the political equivalent of a flash mob. Like you see it happening and then you go is happening. And then more people came and people started tweeting, stand with rand and. Then people went to the senate floor and hes making this argument and im listening to the argument and i think, gosh, i dont know that that many people are afraid that barack obama is going to drone them in a starbucks here in america and that its a caricature of an argument. Its not that far off. I mean, thats what thats what hes worried about. Thats what hes saying. And it occurred to me much, much late, im embarrassed to admit that it wasnt that people were worried about being grown in a starbucks. They just wanted somebody to stand up and say, you know, enough, i dont want enough with this guy, the white house. And thats what he did. And i think he gave voice to a lot of people who had those frustrations. Yeah. So this is kind of a unique opportunity in that we have two books that were kind of written along the trump axis. Both david and jonathan interviewed trump for the book, i think both at mar a lago. It be just a fascinating time kind of compare notes in time because i mean youre what were your experiences like and see if there are any similarities in those experiences. Yeah, it was fascinating. I tried for a good six months to nail this interview and finally i was going to approach deadline and jason miller, who now runs getter was working for donald trump as a spokesman after he left the white house as well. Finally says, okay, i really want to try and help you get the interview. But, you know, he doesnt want to do all these interviews. You know, hes skeptical. What should i tell him . Like, whats the book about . And i said, well, him was like, oh, yeah thatll work. Thats good. And so i finally get the i get the interview. I fly down to florida and it happens to be on cinco de, mayo. And its the last week before mar a lago closes for the season. You know, the trump whatever the regulations are in palm he cant live there all year round so he doesnt just go to bedminster for a change of scenery. They actually have to shut down the club in the summer months and so i get there and just like they kept me waiting. So im off in this like dining thats not being used. Like there are tables and im in there. The dinner staff with the maid or whoever is running the restaurant part of it starts like going through like this familys, going to be here tonight. So there was one family. They controlled some liquor company. So it was like i got the special gin stash for them, but its only for them. Dont give them anything the bar. But dont worry, its better. Gin. Im like, well, nobody told me. This is off the record. So just taking a bunch of notes and hes like, by the way, and there were some other things and. I write about this extensively and in trump shadow independent bookstores, amazon or just popping the some way and we can work out and finally at the end its buffet night at mar a lago and by the way they all wear like the trump hats Like Campaign hats all the dinner staff. So theyve got the whites on like normal, like theyre working a kitchen, but theyve all got the make America Great again hats or the 45 hats or whatever. Anyway the fight in the last thing the dinner guys says is, he says, oh, and by the way we have no themed food for cinco tomorrow tonight so were no taco balls anyway so trump finally when hes done talking to mark walker, a congressman and hoover an excongressman who was asking for an endorsement, never got when he was done talking to mark walker, North Carolina finally comes over to your point. Hes like this gracious polite. Let me show you around. Would you like a coke, by the way, at the time because of the Georgia Voting law, the republicans were throwing all their hands out and even georgia were like, forget it, no more code. Well drink. Trumps like drinking coke . Asked me if i want a coke. I mean, you know, is business, right . He likes his coke. And im going to jump ahead is just to say this. I sit down with him for free hours. There are all sorts of stories that i write about because i was trying to get inside his head. You know, weve all spent now that point like five, six, seven years. Like, why he do this and why does he do that . And i thought, wouldnt it be great to just ask him . Maybe ill figure him out. And if i can figure him out and, tell readers how he operates from his own point of view, at least maybe youll have a guidebook like, oh like, i dont like it, buddy, but i get it. And i wish hed stop. But this is how. Yeah. Or people would be like, love him. And your information about him is amazing either way by the book. Its great. Anyway, at the end of the interview he says, hey, would you like to stay for . And i said, absolutely i want to stay for dinner. Ill tell why. But he says, margo, get i said, margo, can i pay . I have to pay. And shes like, no problem. So shes like, you want inside or outside . Like, i want to be on the patio. Thats where all the action is. And so they couldnt find me a table. They take me to the sidebar im really happy with the interview. Im like three bourbons in and finally they come over. Sir, have a table for you. So they me its like a square patio and they bring corner table and i can see everything. And theres don jr and kimberly and pam bondi of one table and a bunch of florida chic and the whole thing. And the reason i wanted stay for dinner is i had heard the story. And whenever trump comes outside to eat he a special table thats cordoned off. I read stanchions and i saw when i went out there and he always gets to stand doesnt everything stops but i wanted to see it because then i can report it firsthand so all of a sudden im like wolfing my fries or whatever im doing because im really, you know, like i said, now im on my fourth bourbon and he comes out with melania. The whole point is they stop what theyre doing. They get up and they give me a standing ovation, like even president s dont get treated. This in america, its unseemly. But he treated like a king. Does the walk gets the standing ovation and boom. Then everybody goes back and theyre eating. So finally, im like, all right, its humid, its hot. Ive seen everything. I came to see. Its time for me to go. So i mentioned over to the gentleman who. Serving me in the service there is impeccable, i have to say, impeccable i mean, the i tried it the the buffet everything was pretty good. I didnt try the world famous chocolate cake because too old and i like to eat too much. So finally i finally like listen okay i need you to bring me my bill. No, no, no. Its taking care of, sir. Im like, no, no, no. They said could pay. You understand, have to pay. And im like, im now im melting down. And so he calls over his boss and his boss basically says, my boss will fire me if i let you pay, which means trump like so. So i got home. I told my wife, who is very accomplished businesswoman her own right and deals with a lot of wealthy Campaign Contributors in her line of work. I said, i think, you know, somebody in florida who runs a i need to give them like a lot of money immediately and im going to write in the book that in lieu of donald trump buying me dinner i spent the money and i did. I immediately donate 350 to a palm Beach Charity that helps that need health care, that theyre not getting through the normal channels and that was my mar a lago for 4 hours experience. So the doctors that got that check your your experience. Well there was there with windbreakers said fbi. I was there so well start with that. So i was there in april so just a bit earlier. Its a very similar experience. In fact, what you realize talking to other authors is, you know, he wants you to stay for precisely so he can see so so that so that you can see rather him get that reception right because. These are the first months after hes left under not the best circumstances dubious he at this point is feeling uncertain about his place in the political. And this is also part of the reason why i think he cooperated with these boxes he wanted to have his say and. He wants the to realize that, hey, i i still got it, which realize about mar a lago is its like an actual private club. Like there is people who belong to this club who come there for their dinner at night. And so, yeah, its his residence at some level, but hes back to his old and thats what struck me so much is. Three months after he left office, he was so comfortably back in his old life as a hotelier and, you know, greeting people, like you mentioned, you know, its tuesday, folks, at prime rib night cant miss it. And dont forget, leos cocktail over here to like theres literally like were finishing the interview and theyre theyre putting out the chicken dishes all around where were doing the interview. So i think that was, that was striking. Um, you know, as far, as the interview itself, you know, hes not the most reliable narrator in the world, to put it mildly, when it comes to, you know, events. So we didnt we spent a lot of time doing that. We talked about various. But at the end of the interview, when we running out of time and his staff was saying, weve got to go, we had prior raised ahead of time how we were gonna address this. And so when got the hook we said no. Mr. President we are so struck by the architecture here. Would you mind giving us a quick tour of mar a lago this a fascinating building and of course like test the hulking water. To put that puppy in the boat are 20 more minutes Walking Around we got the full tour would you mind showing us where you serve that chocolate cake to president xi from china and it was a bit tasty and he happily gave us the tour. We got more time out of but no the biggest takeaway was just how much he wants you, the reporter, to see the engagement with the members and how much they still like him and still see him out and still flatter him. And then also i would say he the members of the club, importantly to see him with the report first because that tells the members, i got it. By the way, let me just add one thing. Trump would rather sit with reporters that he will claim rallies are the enemy of the people and fake news and you shouldnt Pay Attention to them. He would much rather try and sell somebody and win them over and prove to an elite institution that has an elite brand that know im cool and you should understand that im cool. We were halfway ive told dave weigel this story in the Washington Post, who i think is a great political reporter and a good guy. Were halfway through the interview and he kept saying, you know, you and your people, the Washington Post during your piece in the Washington Post and i finally concluded he thought i was dave weigel. And like and ive told you, theres like i dressed better than dave weigel. No, it was a i mean, this is the to come back to the topic at hand here, alan, about about political media and obviously the the in the room this is the great paradox of President Trump especially in a red state like this this. He attacks the media as you may have noticed but nobody nobody in politics in my life has craved craved coverage of the media and positive coverage of the media more than trump and. You know, i would go to these trump rallies and the people say, oh, we hate the media. And its like, well he doesnt he he loves us he loves the press. How much of that how much that is instinctual versus how much is like really thinking . And the reason he attacks us so much is because hes scorned i mean, its like, you know, he he craves that affirmation. And when he doesnt get it, thats why he lashes. And also, his voters dont like us. And we could have a discussion about that. And but but it he in some ways follows his base as much as they follow him but not on their style. Yeah and i always want to ask people in the trump rallies like, arent you curious why . He spent so much time talking to us and about us because someone who didnt care about us wouldnt do that, right . Oh, all right. I want to touch one more question and we open it up to two questions for everybody. Gallup in july did a poll talking about partizan confidence in print news media. Democrats had gave a 35 confidence rate. Our Approval Rating of print news media, republicans gave it five, which puts roughly somewhere between the irs audit and the skin cancer. Right. I mean, thats a crazy, insane low number. Steve, talk about the play of the state of polygamy. I mean, thats it, right . I mean, like that bifurcated as a as a society. Well, i think this was just from the discussion we were just having. I mean, if you go back to 2012, i have the poll right in front of me, but i think the republican approval number was like 22 . So precipitous decline over the past decade. And i would say theres a number of reasons for that. I mean, one, you a you have conservative republicans were skeptical of establishment legacy media, Mainstream Media, you want to call it. And i would say for good reason. You know, i think you go back and you look at the way that mitt was treated and the kinds of questions that he had to answer. I think can go back years and years, point to a number of reasons that mainstream got things wrong. Think back to to dan rather in the george bush story, 60 minutes, for which the network apologized. Dan rather sort of half apologized, but stuck around and is now appearing Cable Networks and elsewhere as a commentator on media and our politics, i can tell most of my conservative see that and think they dont care. Like this guy was doing something was unethical and. They dont care because theyre buddies with him or whatever. So i think theres theres reason that conservatives are skeptical. The Mainstream Media and those numbers are abysmal. They dont surprise me. Remember that, same year, 2012, ten years ago, Newt Gingrich ran an ultimately Unsuccessful Campaign but a campaign where he was one of the final couple of candidates and what did he run on . Do you remember any of his . Nobody remembers any of his. But at every single debate, he turned the argument to the media. And there was one debate in particular where he attacked john king from cnn. And you, would you read the snaps after the debates and look at what conservatives were saying the next day, what republicans were the next day, and they love Newt Gingrich. He wasnt really even making he wasnt making policy proposals as much as he was just attacking the media. So i think youre right that theres theres for that and that, you know, i think that theres a long history. That was the moment where you realized maybe it wasnt about spending after all and small government right. No i mean, there were a lot of those movies for sure. I would two things about the the low ratings. Number one, look, obviously have been a series of black eyes that are indisputable where my business has not helped themselves. I thats obvious i think we cant though ignore a sustained 50 or Campaign Beginning with nixon and agnew and lieutenants in the white house to attack the media. Portray the media as the call to american values. Thats been a purposeful campaign. I can point you to speeches. Nixon and agnew both gave you some which were written by pat buchanan, in which they did this a Long Term Strategy to delegitimize the Mainstream Media thats been going on for half a century now. And of course, its going to have an impact over time. You know, i, i dont really know how you lets talk about how would you fix it . And i dont really know how you fix it. I think social media has caused us some problems because. It has allowed journalists all of us me at times to make ourselves the story. And we should never the story. And theres a level of engagement that goes on with readers and political operatives and elected officials on social media platform that didnt exist long ago. But i think one of the things i would say is i think in many ways theres a lot less media, even though i agree with steve that republicans have good reason to complain about media bias, but theres a lot less purposeful bias than there is simply reporters who may not always know enough about a topic to ask proper questions and synthesize information. Im going to tell a very quick, selfserving story about this when i was a cub reporter for the l. A. Daily news or before them with one of their affiliates, one of the first news conferences i covered with then governor gray davis before he was recalled, he gave a speech about insurance to an Insurance Group and they didnt find it all that they didnt like the speech. And afterwards i asked governor davis, a question about Workers Compensation insurance and what do you plan to do about it . Because it was a big in california and forget what his answer was. But Roger Salazar who was his spokesman at the time makes a beeline me and im like, whoops, im in trouble. And all he wanted to know is how did i know about that . And said, well, until about six months ago, i was paying compensation for the company, was running for a Family Business that i was involved in, and i had to deal with it. And i think if more us and its like the of us now have been reporting on campaigns and politics long enough that i think we have a good understanding of how work and theres a lot of confidence in our youve seen it in jonathan and alexs book you see it in the work that steve does with dispatch. These are all my opinions, but i think the true but lets say youre a reporter covering you know the recently passed Inflation Reduction Act like this includes me if you dont know enough about how businesses are going to react to the regulations and spending in the book or how consumers are going to have to synthesize the new taxes or how the new irs audits are going to impact them because you havent covered it long enough. Can you ask the right questions or are you just going to react to some study that says, well, if we do this itll create this outcome and think thats actually a bigger problem than . Reporters running around. Trying to bat for one team or another. I dont think that happens nearly as much as people think. Just a matter of where people from, if you dont know cultural conservatives or cultural liberals, how are you going to understand them and ask questions and then report on who they really are . Knowledge is really the key. I think improving our reporting and then regaining some trust. But this is also like all the other institutions in the United States at this time. I feel like its very long term project. Well, we should say just as a coda on that, we should say this was a very deliberate strategy by donald trump. I mean, he knew what he was doing. Remember he gave an interview to lesley stahl of cbs and she effectively asked him sort of, why do you keep telling people that we cant trust . He says, well, then, because if you say anything bad about me, they wont believe you. This is a this was a plan. Thats why he did it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So real quick, got about 7 minutes left. We certainly on time, folks who want to ask questions may make their way to the we would be glad to entertain at least two or three questions quickly if anybody would like to do that. Yes, maam, go ahead. Well, i guess i didnt realize when i decided to come to this that state of political journalism would only cover republicans, especially with a head of your politics as the moderator. Anyway, what i would like to ask is why. No one mentioned the elephant in the room when they talked change with donald trump. How do you feel about fact that the browning of america is one reason that poor whites and the majority whites supported donald trump . Well, i would just correct you. I actually pointed that trump benefited from racial demagoguery in 2016. Its not a mystery. Its pretty obvious to everybody in this room that part of what he did as a candidate what he did as president. He called for a ban of all muslims coming to america in november of 2015. And millions of folks still voted for him. So i dont think its a mystery about that. Not for me. I definitely agree. And ill just add that that donald trump improved republican numbers with nonwhite voters in 2020. My example is he won a border county in texas, a county a republican had not won that county in 100 years. And so its a very i dont disagree with what jonathan said. And youre making a poignant but talk to nonwhite white voters and its a lot more complicated than simply one versus the other. Yes, sir. My question is, to what extent would you say democracy in america is at risk . Weve got that question in other panels. Steve, what are your. Well, thanks for the easy. Yeah, well, chris, thats why you get paid the big bucks. Youre welcome. Im worried. Im worried. You know. I think youre seeing an increasing number of people embrace. Alternative facts, information that isnt reliable. We dont. Were having our political debates not sort of across party lines with an attempt to persuade, starting with shared facts. Instead, everybody has, you know, pick pick your metaphor. Everybody has a silo where everybody has their favorite place and youre talking about many times who are making decisions about future of the country that they dont even dealing with the same set of facts. And if you look at what thats done in washington, you know, weve weve been covering this for a long time. And theres always been an element of performance in politics. But the extent to which performance its almost all of it now. It was really concerning. If you give somebody an opportunity to give a senator a choice, you can shape landmark legislation on on issue x that will, you know, change the that the country is run in your for 50 years or you can get a ton attention create a name for boost your twitter followings have appearances on fox news or msnbc. And i think unfortunately, lot of them would pick the latter, maybe just the loudest pick the latter. But thats a problem and i think when you look at that phenomenon and the growth of it and are inability to agree on basic facts does doesnt bode well. Yeah. And i mean we talk about this in the book a great deal. I think its a its sobering to think about what the implication as of january 6th were in terms of how Political Violence is seen as acceptable somehow in american democracy today, that it can be sort of shoved or kind of rationalized, that is really dispiriting to me that were were at the point now where you see incidents all the time now in which you hear threats or, you know, scuffles. I just feel like were were in a very dangerous place right now in part not because everybody in the wrong place to pick up a musket and have a civil war. But because people have gotten so radicalized, uh, and theyve gotten in part because we live in information silos in which we dont have those shared facts. As steve mentioned, which are so essential. And if you dont have facts, its tough to have a democracy. And i would just and i think it would be helpful if politicians in both parties stopped campaigning as this is the most consequence and election of our lifetime. And if we lose its going to be, you know, 8000 years of darkness. Yeah. You know, first of all, we an election in this country every two years. And you guys have in the off year. So really like every year in america you get to change out something tells you what to do. Theres always another election. But if you keep telling people the end is near, eventually theyre going to believe you. And you know whats whats kind of funny about all this is oh six, you know, for republican election 0608 democratic elections. 2010 republican election 12 democratic 14 republican, 16 republican. Eight democrat. 22. I mean, the end is never near. Theres another election, but we have you create this sort fear. And by the way if four years of one guy in office is going to mean the end the republic, then the republic has bigger problems. But, you know, when you members of congress receiving death at their homes, they voted for an infrastructure bill thats pretty depressing state affairs when liz cheney cannot at home part in part the volume of Death Threats has received is so overwhelming that she fears for her. Even with the Capitol Police detail guarding her. Were in a pretty sad moment now. Yeah, were running close on time. And one quick, really quick, you guys mentioned as piggybacking off what he was saying about fate of the democracy in the drc this sense the overall thesis is the state of journalism. Do you see violence and threats as being a new norm or do you see this as an as an issue and why or why not . Why do you see it like its an intermediate thing or violence or Political Violence more the norm now than the exception. I dont think statistically by any measure, but i feel like there is more of and there are more threats. I mean, i know that to jonathans point about liz cheney having a Capital Police state detail just reported a story about ted cruz. Hes not in leadership. You only get detail if youre in leadership, unless facing Death Threats to ted cruz has 24 hour private security at his home in houston and he Capitol Police detail everywhere he goes otherwise. And there is a lot more of this going on and i think it is in part because there are certain elements of our leadership ship and certain media elements generally that help perpetuate and perpetuate and give voice to this. And i think its something that i just think its something that everybody really to take a look at. But is it you know, are we dodging bullets . You know, in washington. No. But there is more. Okay. Well pick. I wont blow the whistle here because we are right up on time. But certainly we want to take our time again and again thank our panelists for being with us. Thank Capital Resource is fair and paul hearst must be humanities and for all of you being here today thank you for your time. Please give these gentlemen a great round ofour book tv. We want to introduce you to reiner seidelman. He is the author of this book, the power of capitalism a journey recent history across five continents. Reiner seidelman what are you trying to accomplish with this book. A lot of people blame capitalism. All the bad things in the world. Its sort of like a 30 rocks today, but i think that its not true because i guess you only have one. Number 200 years ago. If we talk capitalism, 90 of worldwide population lived
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