Transcripts For CSPAN3 American History TV 20140808

Nothing that has happened since has changed that picture. And hes a very interesting character. Interesting isnt the right word. I did my best to undermine him. What did you do other than find john oneil . Probably called veterans organization. It was no black operation. I passed on information to reporters and others information that wasnt complimentary. Hes got this idea that i ran this big campaign. He said this in the 2004 electi election, he said the bush people are pulling all the stops out against me, now i have chuck dolson working against me. Bush had some long conversations with him. I wasnt involved in the campaign. Do not believe as a religious leader i should be involved in the campaign. Tell you what kind of a guy kerry is. This is interesting. May not be interesting. I went to the National Prayer breakfast in the early 90s. The speaker is never announced until the last moment. The speaker was announced john kerry. Kerry came in the mid 90s, and i was sitting two tables from the podium in the front of this huge hall at the Hilton Hotel Ballroom and kerry gave the most evangelistic message i think ive ever heard, it would outdo billy graham, it was absolutely magnificent. Back to my office, i was really convicted because he was a guy i had done everything to fight against and thought very badly of, whos now become a christian. So i wrote him a letter and i said dear senator kerry, you and i once were at odds with one another, i want you to know i heard your speech today and i was deeply moved and thrilled youve become a christian, i would like to come back and visit with you, and apologize personally for anything ive done to you in the past. This is a matter of natural instinct. I never got an answer back but i got a call from the reporter from the boston globe, is it true that you apologized to john kerry . All he said was i apologized. Hes never acknowledged the letter or me. All he did was tell people i apologized to him. I did, but i wanted to meet with him for prayer. That doesnt leave me with a good taste in my mouth for john kerry. When you read haldemans recollections of this era and your recollections, theres a tension. Haldeman recalls you as bringing out the darker side of the president , and you recall haldeman bringing out the darker side of the president. Help us understand what this means, the darker side of the president and what roles each of you played. Well, we had a lot of competition between us, and there were moments when i really liked bob haldeman, when he would relax and be himself. There were other times he could be utterly obnoxious. I remember one night i had only been in the white house six or eight months. The president had on a tie that was heavily figured. I went over to bob and said, dont let him wear that tie tonight it will look terrible on television. He was like, oh, youre an expert. He would put you down, cut you down. Most people had their runins, they had their moments when they were really treat ed not kindly by bob. He was at times tyrannical with people. There were many times i saw him take notes, agree with the president , when i would have disagreed and maybe did later, there were times when i thought he was simply being mechanical in reacting to the president. There were times when he did things i wouldnt have done. And there were other times when i brought up the dark side of nixon, he didnt have to work very hard to bring it out, it was always close to the surface. He was a gut fighter, a street fighter. His first reaction was to fight back. His first reaction was to get even with people. What he needed were people who would give him a more measured reaction. And we both did it the wrong way. We did it, okay, lets go get those guys. And in reflection now, if i regret anything about the nixon years, i regret a lot, but the thing i probably regret the most, i didnt take those occasions to try to help nixon moderate some of those views. Haldeman said they were given orders like i was giveth, but they didnt carry them out. Thats not been my experience. They did exactly what i did. We were on the sequoia one night and haldeman, nixon and i and were having drinks up on the deck and having dinner, and were talking about something that arthur burns had said. He had said something that would i guess he was not supporting the initiatives money supply and at dinner that night, nixon turned to me and he said, hes lobbying for a raise, isnt he . I said, i dont know. Nixon said, yes, hes told me once already he wants to get the same as the cabinet. He wanted to be bumped up, he wanted the Federal Reserve chairman to get a raise. Nixon said put that out to the press. You. Knew that burns didnt he wanted it to be effective . Yes. On saturday, i went in and said, thats not a good idea, we shouldnt do that. And he said, you have your orders, go do it. There was a case where i was being wise for once. And bob was saying, no, no, go for it. That happened more often i remember that one vividly, because it turned out to be a very bad thing. It was bad for nixon, bad for the country. What happened . The story was put out, it was false. It camt the one that had planted that story. You had some allies in the media, novak, robert novak and others, how did you youre one of those thats allowed to plan stories . Not very often. Very seldom. I had people who did that, but i only probably had novak in my office twice the whole time i was in the white house, and he would be the most friendly of the reporters jerry turhaus was an old friend, he was the one i gave information to about elsbrick. The result of my going to prison. There were reporters who desperately wanted to see me. Once in a while i saw one if i was told there was a really good reason to do that. I tried not to do that, i didnt think it would help me. I had john excelly working for me. And paul barker. I cannot think of his name he would deal with the press. Ken claussen. Claussen did a lot of that. In fact most of the stuff i planted i would plant through claussen. Did you ever meet bob woodward . No, not until years later. In the middle of watergate. In the middle of watergate . Ye. He was constantly after me, wanted to see me, i refused to see him, because i thought it was wiser not to. I was a nixon loyalist, and i felt it was better not to contribute to his efforts. I had him in my office one night, and this would have been in the summer of 74. And he began the conversation by saying, mr. Colson, i have found in the last several months of covering the stories that the people who wont talk to me have something to hide, the people who will talk to me must be on the level. I said, i made a mistake inviting you in, i dont want to talk to you. That was our one meeting. That was the only time i saw him. I did talk to him on the phone a few times. Always a mistake. Always a mistake . Always. My better judgment was not to talk to him, once in a while my worst judgment won out. About the desire for revenge, on the tape, so we have a record, after the breakin, the president would meet with you and he seems to be venting with you, haldeman said when the president vented with you, it was a sign of trust and he only chose a number of people to vent his anger with. He chose to do it with it, why . Well, i think there was trust. I felt very loyal to him and very close to him. Admired greatly. It was an emotional thing with me in some respects, both of my boys were approach iing draft a. I was against the all volunteer army, i felt committed to rich 5rd nixon. I do to this day, still respect him greatly. I think he knew that, and i think he felt he could let his hair down with me. Its a very deep anger . Yeah, he told me there was a dispute, and i guess its available on the tapes. And i remember he called me on sund sunday. He had you he wanted you to go and get the Washington Posts licenses overturned . Yes. Did he talk to you about using the irs against his enemies . Did he . Yeah. When was that . This was late summer of 7 2k. It never had anything to do with the irs, so i didnt do it. I remember the licenses, and i had talked to dean birch about that. Before i would return to the fcc. And there had been a big fight over those licenses in the past. They wouldnt. That wouldnt have gone uncontested. He did see walter annenberg. I dont know if that shows up on the tapes. About mounting some competition to the post and even taking over the washington star which later became the times. There westbound a few things i did when i left the white house, but most of the time well, lets see. That was after i left the white house. There wasnt anything we did during the campaign, because you would be too vulnerable. When did you get the sense that you were going to be the fall guy for watergate . Well, i worried about that right after the election. There had been four or five episodes that made me really suspicio suspicious. I was coming to haldemans office, there was a meeting going on, and i opened the door because nobody told me not to. I was going in to see bob. John mitchell was on the other side of the door, and he held the door and he said, what do you want . I said, i want to see bob. He said, well, were in a meeting, we just as soon you not come in right now. I said, is my friend howard hunt involved in this . He said, up to his ears. This was right after watergate, and i shook my head and but i wasnt welcome in that meeting. We came back from california on air force one, and the president this was in augu august i think were coming back from california. And i left air force one to go to my car to drive home and realized i had left something on the plane, i went back and the staff Conference Room where i had to walk in, haldeman and he were talking, it was just like boom, shut off the moment i walked in the door. It was very august watt, and i got in there as quickly as i could. It was obvious they didnt want me it could have been about anything. But it became clear to me that after the election, the morning after the election, nixon called his staff and everyone let them know what they wanted to do with the next term. I wrote a memoranda and told him i was going back to practice law, but there would be things i would stay to do. Chairman of the Republican National committee, i would love to do. Or the labor department. I think those were the things, theyre in the file somewhere. I was the first one of the senior staff to be invited up to camp david for dinner with the president. So i come in, and its just very cheerful evening, the wine is flowing, and the steaks are great. Nixons talking about the great future. He says, chuck, if you want to stay, there will be the right position for you, but i think youd be wonderful in the cabinet, maybe General Council of Republican National committee and you could be my outside adviser, help me from the outside so i was beginning to get a sense of things. Paul was sitting there nodding and so when we left that evening and went back to our lodge, i said, what does this mean . I said, does he want me to stay or not . Bob says, i think you should go. You can do better on the outside. So they poisoned him against you . Well, ive always thought so, you read more of the tapes than i have. Not everything is on the tapes, there are discussions that what i wanted to ask you, what have we missed . What discussions about watergate arent on the tapes . I dont know whether the stuff at camp david was on tape, was it . Not all of it. Some of it was one night i was up there, he was talking about, this is in december of 72, he was talking about kissinger having given his interview, and were talking just the two of us in a little sitting area off the living room, and all of a sudden he waives to me and we go into the hall leading into the bedrooms, he says, the next administration, kissingers gone, i dont want him around. And just vents. And we walk back in the room and resume the conversation. If i had any sense, i would have realized that place was bugged. You. Sent someone to paris to photograph a woman no, get a photograph published in a french newspaper. Ted kennedy dancing with maria pia who was in the the swinging society of paris. Someone sent us a clipping from europe. Nixon said to me, i want that picture. We really thought Teddy Kennedy would have been our opponent in 72, and he would have been a tough opponent, i think and we tried through the normal ways to do it. Just couldnt turn up on the news services, contacted the people in paris and couldnt get an answer. I call a guy in new york by the name of mulcahey pat ohara. I said, would you go to paris and get me that picture . He did. He came back and delivered it to the white house, i walked into the white house. I said, i got something i think youd like to see. I dropped the picture on his desk. He picks it up and swings around with his feet under the table behind his desk and laughs uproar yously. That should have been a clue, he didnt want to laugh into the microphone. But it wasnt, i was naive. But we got the picture. Never used it, but it was good insurance if we thought we were going to run against him. That would have appeared in the newspapers at some point . Yes. Nixon by the way called Henry Kissinger in that same meeting and said, henry, come look at this. And henry looked at it and laughed and henry loved that stuff. Well, nixon was probably a little jealous that henry could be photographed with starlets around the world . Yes. We had those conversations too. I read that some of these vindictive or desires for revenge came out when the president was drinking . Umhum . Was it that he couldnt hold his liquor . Again, the complicated per n personality. I dont want to say he couldnt hold his liquor, there were times when i thought nixon came close to going too far with his wine at dinner, and sometimes his scorch. He could pretty well control it, he could have a drink or two before dinner and always a bottle of wine, vintage wine, very good wine that he would save for himself and the other people at the table would be left with the drinks. I thought he went too far. There was never a time when i was with him was he not in complete control of his faculties. He was never dangerous. There were two or three phone calls, i suspect have been listened to when i thought he was over the edge. April 30th when he fired haldeman. He sure sounded it. One night he called me. I was up sitting with my dad, he was sick and he had just come back from russia. My dad had had a heart attack, i was in massachusetts, i get a call from the president at 2 00 in the morning. And he is incoherent. I couldnt make head nor tail out of what he was saying. He would Say Something and then slur off. I went to a neighbors house, and i said, i have to make a phone call and dont ask any questions. Its 2 00 in the morning. But i need to get a telephone, so i could get disconnected from nixon and call the white house switchboard. I called the switchboard. I said somethings happened to the president. Hes on the phone but i think hes passed out. He called me back 20 minutes later and said hes fine hes asleep. The president called me and said he was on heavy doses of sleeping pills, the jet lag got to him, and it may well be. There were times he would equal me in the middle of the night, i hope im not bothering you, is it all right to talk . He would sleep two hours and then wake up and do some work, and he would call me. He did not sound like he had been drinking, but he wasnt as clear witted as he normally was. The times he would get up in the night, he couldnt sleep, and so i recognized the phone call was just handling. These are the times when you would not do what he asked you to . Oh, yeah. You said there were a hundred things he asked you to do that you didnt . Yes. There were times i knew couldnt and shouldnt. Lets youre a complicated person, how did you know or didnt know . If i sensed it was one of those middle of the night deals where he was just ranting, i would let him rant and listen and agree with him. He wanted me to fire all the people at bureau of labor statistics one night, he called me. I called George Shultz i said he wants to fire the head of the bureau of labor statistics. Schultz said dont do anything until i come back. He flew back and spoke directly with the president. There were many times when i did not do what he said and got the person involved who should do it. There were a lot of things he would ask you to do you knew you couldnt do. You say he didnt know how to unwined . I remember one time after i guess it was after the teamsters endorsed nixon, which i arranged in 72. I went up there to be there for the teamster meeting i was there when they made the decision to endorse him. That next morning he was exuberant. And he says, lets go for a ride, and wed go outside into the golf cart, which he then drives. I was never more nervous in my life, hes driving up and down the roads and hes not a good driving and hes not paying any attention, were in a golf cart. But it was his way of celebrating. It was as far as i saw nixon go to take the time out to celebrate something. Another time in san clemente i was there for zinner, we go into the upstairs library that looks out over the pacific. He said, this is where we talked about went through the entire conversation with bresnov. I found it kind of interesting, i suppose but i could have engaged in more stimulating conversation, than to relive a negotiation that took place in this room. But nixon was so totally focused, i dont think he knew how to wind down. Which is why you would get those middle of the night calls which is why he was so intense about everything he did. He didnt know how to cool it. Recount for us the episode after George Wallace had been shot. We were absolutely panicked that bremmer would have turned out to have been an ailing lie of some right wing group or somehow some crazy involve with us. I figured any connection with us, the president would be impeached on the spot. He called me in his office. This will be on the tapes, i suppose jokingly said, well, you should have finished the job. He said, this is bad if any of our people have anything to do with this, it would be great if it came from the left. So he said, what can we find out about it . I sat down at the table in the executive office and called mark felt at the fbi and said, mark, tell me what you can this is probably 5 30 at night, its been three hours since the shooting. They had his apartment cordoned off. Theyre following a series of phone conversations with mark, in which the president was sitting pantomime telling me what to say. Whispering loudly, im sure mark must have heard it, and relaying all these instructions. Find out if theres any literature inside . Is there any political literature inside . I said, well, call me back when you find out anything. Meanwhile, the president said to me, how about this was howard hundred the. How about your friend the cia guy . Could we get him to go out there and see whats going on . Maybe plan the some literature . I said ill call him. I went back to my office and said, could you do anything . Could you find out anything . Its probably too late. And hunts response is, im sure they have the place sealed off, i cant get inside. Unless you can get me inside. I told the president that, and we kept waiting for the next three hours for reports which came directly to me in the president s office or me in my office and i would call the president. Of course, he had been stalking nixon. So there was no political gain or loss except wallace being on the sidelines was help to us. Nixon was pantomiming in your office . His office, sitting there making gestures, im trying to read his lips while im talking to mark. This is what i find i cannot understand about the watergate period, i see no evidence that he sat with you at any point and said, what was hunt doing . He knew what hunt was doing. Go back to the thing about brookings, he says, ive been telling you i want someone in here who can do hes got black bag jobs. Someone who can do what the fbi used to do. I thought about that later, and said, mr. President you cant do that. I regret i didnt, but i didnt. I always thought he knew what was going on. I was sure he had approved it, because of that conversation on saturday in the oval office. So, i always thought he must have gotten the okay. It turns out he didnt. But i always thought he would have. But in the summer lets say after the election in 72, im surprised nixon didnt have a conversation with you about hunt and what do do about we did have one, we had two or three in january. He knew i was involved. But everyone knew i was involved. The question was amnesty. And this is an interesting story. I felt badly that he got pulled into that. He lost his wife. And i felt responsible. I didnt know we were paying him money, until he called me and told me so. I was never in any of the meetings, the cover upmeetings. If you go back and look at the attendance, i wasnt at them. So youre right i was being set up. Hunts lawyer came in to see me in january. I agreed to see him because hunt asked me top i was appalled by his approach. I cut him off. I said if you talk to me this way, i cannot help you. If you just be quiet, ill tell you what i want to do. As a friend, not to keep anyone quiet, just as a friend, he should not go to prison because he was being told to do what he did by the white house. If he did go to prison i would ask for amnesty, a pardon, some relief. You have my personal assurance on that, thats not to hush you up. But its only because hes a friend and i brought him in here, i feel responsible. And i didnt no, i didnt know he was testifying. He had said plenty on his tape that signaled to me that he was volatile and now blackmailing us, letting us know we better take care of him. I never did talk to the president , however walking between the west wing and the eob one night and there were three of us it might have been ken kroll or ben krok. I turned to one of them and said, im going to be leaving here. If you guys allow hunt to go to prison, get convicted and take the rap for this, im going to come back and talk to the president. Im going to tell the president. Before i leave, i want to tell the president , im sure he pardons him, before i leave this white house. Enhe didnt say a word to me. I never did it, i did it so ehrlich would think i was doing it. Later he said that i had done it and the president went into a frenzy, that was december when he called me over to the white house. Hes sitting up in the lincoln sitting room with all the tapes out. He says, did i promise clemency for hunt . I said no. Are you sure . Did i have a conversation with you in which i promised . No. You may remember, this was one of the charges in watergate, but it didnt happen, because i didnt ask him. I told ehrlich because i wanted to be able to come back and have him help me. I wanted to keep my leverage. I said something that wasnt true. The president and i did talk about these things, we talked about liddy, hunt, and in one conversation which is, im sure on the tapes i said that the president said get here into the white house. Youve heard the tape . I think its in january. I said, yes he said, haldeman and ehrlich . I said yes. At that point i had figured it out well. And then you can listen to the tape february 14th, youve got to get who was responsible for this, and get them out of here. I also told him in my conversation in march he should get a special council and investigate it open ly. At that point i really did realize he was in deep danger. You must you knew how the haldeman system worked. Did you think it was possible that 300 million could go to someone to undertake an intelligence operation without haldeman knowing . No, i didnt have any question that he aproved what would be going on. I didnt think anyone was stupid enough to break into the democratic National Committee. And i didnt think he would have approved that. You thought he approved general surveillance . Yes. Why werent you unless it was the rivalry with mitchell and gruder. I it would have been perfectly logical, there was a meeting every week in the president s office, sort of the brain trust of the campaign, mitchell and then the fella who came in to replace mitchell. Clark mcgregor. John conley, me, haldeman. And this was over a strategy session. The intelligence issue never came up once. And i was not part of the staff discussions or the staff process of proving it. The only time i heard about it was when hunt brought liddy into the office. I have attributed that to the fact that mitchell and i did not get along. Do you think the president knew you were being set up to take the fall for watergate . Yeah, i do. I hate to say that, because i would like to think that he had as much affection for me as i had for him. But i think he knew it. I think he had to know it. How do you explain that since you described how close you were. I dont agree with darwin, but that was survival of the fittist. If the president of the United States is thinking how hes going to save himself, anyones expendable. Thats not the way i would see it, but i think thats the way he saw it. Could you tell us the story, and you said you tell it in your book about asking youre in prison and youre with a group of your former colleagues and you ask mcgruder what happened. Tell us how that happened . Dean and i were conversing in my room, testimony was going on gruder had been brought there to testify in the trials. The three of us were there dean and i were talking and i said to john, i said, were all in prison because of watergate. Why do you think we broke into the democratic National Committee . He said, i dont know i said you didnt approve it . He said, no. I said, i never heard of it. He said, well, the guy that said yes is mcgruder. We go down the hall and get mcgruder, he sits on the bed and we start idle chatter. Were all in prison its all over, were paying or price for this. Why did we get into this thing, why did we approve watergate in the first place . Why did we decide to go in there for intelligence . What did we want to find. He got red in the face, nervous, agitated and walked out, he never answered us. We just shook our heads, because he was the guy who gave it the green light. Later he said the president told him to, thats ridiculous. I dont believe it for a minute. You dont believe it . No. What about mitchell . Mitchell did. The president always protected mitchell, he had too protect mitchell . Why . Because he felt about mitchell the way i did about hunt, only more so. John mitchell didnt want to come here, his wifes an alcoholic, i could never do anything to hurt mitchell. I think there he really felt a special loyalty that would have been different than with me, i was a young guy on the career latter moving up. Heres an older man with a half a Million Dollar a year law practice in new york. Nixon talks him to coming down, his wife embarrasses him, he ends up disgraced. Where were you the day nixon resigned . In prison. How did you feel . Well, i was relieved that it was over disappointed because i would have thought he would have taken his own troops with him if he was going to resign. Pardon us or commute the sentences. Hopeful that jerry ford would do that sad for nixon personally. I really felt empathetic, i knew what an incredibly difficult thing that was for him to do. Just to stand there and look at people and in shame, how hard that would be for a man that proud. Did he ever talk to you about a pardon for you . No. Did you see him afterwards . Oh, yeah. The first week i was home from prison, i got a call for him. I had said something negative about kissinger on television. And nixon calls me and its like old times, were just chatting away. And he got one secretary of state. We got to support him. I said, you didnt like what i said on television . I think we should let henry he was nicely telling me to lay off of henry, im sure henry called him it got us into a good conversation. And he said, youre not going to go into this religious business, are you . If you want some help, i know people that would love to hire you. I said, no, no. Sometime ill come out to see you if youll let me, maybe a sunday morning. And i dont know what im going to do yet. I did go out and spend three hours with him on a sunday morning. Deliberately i told him i was coming out, he liked sunday Morning Worship Services in the white house, he wouldnt go to church in san clemente but i went there and performed a church service. I never got to talk about what i wanted to faulk about. He talked about watergate. He said, what did you go to prison for . I said disseminating information. He said, i told you to do that. I go to prison for the guy, doing what he said, spend seven months in prison and he doesnt know why im there. He wasnt himself there, he was really shocked after he left office. I saw him again a few more times, not in san clementi, but when he came to new york, saw him get back on his feet, and always had a Good Relationship with him, and he was always very friendly to me. I never spent much time with him after maybe the first three or four years. I was in new york for something. And i called him and he said, come on over. So we spent an evening together. And that was maybe the early 80s, i didnt see him much from then until yeah, talked to him a few times. Did you feel were you when bud went back to see the president after he served his time. He felt he should apologize to nixon . He felt he had done something that had hurt nixon . My sense listening to you, is that you didnt you felt the blame could be shared . I didnt apologize to him, i was doing what he told me to do and i didnt really think i was involved in watergate, and i had given him the assistant prosecutor told me i was the one who had done this, i gave him the right advice. Technically i left the conspiracy when i did that, it didnt matter i had already pled guilty. I realize if he had taken my advice he would still be president. I didnt feel like i owed him an apology now. Did he disappoint you . Sure, of course. But i also understood the man. Families disappoint one another sometimes, but youre still family. Thanks for spending time with us. Thank you, i enjoyed it. Friday night on cspan, this years western conservative summit including remarks by senator tim scott, faith and Freedom Coalition founder ralph reid and sarah palin, it gets underway at 8 00 eastern time on csp cspan. With live coverage of the u. S. House on cspan and the senate on cspan 2, here on cspan 3, we show you the most relevant Public Affairs events. On weekends cspan 3 is the home to American History tv. With programs that tell our nations story, the civil wars 150th anniversary, visiting battlefields and key events. American artifacts, touring museums and Historic Sites to reveal americas past. The presidency, looking at the policies and legacies of our commander in chief. Lectures in history, with top College Professors delving into americas past. Our new series, educational films from the 1930s through the 70s. Cspan 3, created by the cable tv industry and funded by your local cable or satellite provider. Watch us on hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. Now, more on Richard Nixons presidency with dwight chapin. In this oral history interview, he discusses the 1972 president ial campaign and the watergate scandal that followed. This is just over an hour. The dirty tricks business pl play . Right, right. Very good. Dick tuck was a prankster who had done tricks on republican candidates over the years. Tricks being crazy little things, nothing harmful. One day the buzzer goes off, i go into the president s office, and hes sitting there with haldeman. They say bob says it, do you know anyone that can do dick tuck type stuff, we should have somebody like that . I said, well, let me think about, so im i went out and thought about it, and i thought of don. He had been a roommate at usc, he was just leaving the judge advocates position in the military in the army. And i thought, don, okay. Hes very anonymous, wed fit in and can do this kind of thing, i talked with don and he was interested in doing it, i arranged through herb for him to be paid. And i put it in motion with very little guidance because i was incredibly blizdy, and had all kinds of obligations and don marched off. I gave him some direction. For the life of me, i cant remember specifically what direction. The one thing that saved my hide in one sense, is that when don went to a grand jury, and they asked him about his activities, he said when dwight hired me, one of the reasons i hired you is because youre a lawyer, and youll know whats right and whats wrong. When he said that, it made it impossible for them to later indict me for anything he had done. Don remembers me saying that. I dont remember that statement, he says thats what i said. What happened was, that he went out and did all of these prans,s some of which crossed a line and were not tolerable, in our political system should not have been done. The classic being a very negative piece on sherry chisolm who was a black congresswoman from new york and he made ethnic slurs and so forth in this document. But i and he would send me copies of things but many times i wouldnt even open this stuff. It piled up at our house but i wouldnt even get into it, because i just didnt have the time. And that was my downfall. Maybe i would have redirected it. Its so many years later its hard to remember the specifics of p it i was indicted for making false statements to a grand jury. Not for any of his actions, but when they asked me about the Shirley Chisolm document and whether i i said i dont recall this, and i was indicted for some counts of not recalling and not being specific. The prosecutors translation of that was, that i was misleading and making false statements and they proved that in court by having the document and saying to a jury, how could anybody not remember this . And, of course, had i seen it or had i really focused on it, there was no way not to remember it, but i didnt remember it, so i got convicted by the grand jury, and i appealed all the way to the supreme court, they wouldnt hear my case, so i went to lompoke for nine months. He did all this without any he was not getting any instructions . No, no, i i talked to him on the phone periodically, we met a few times, i gave him some ideas, i aimed him at muskee. I aimed him at who else would it have been at that year . Humphr humphrey. But not he went and innovated and did whatever he did, i didnt get into the nittygritty of the execution of how this stuff worked. Did haldeman explain to you why the president wanted this done . I never questioned this, to me, dick tuck had always been, this had been part of what i had grown up with. So their request to have a dick tuck type guy was not insane of an idea. You mean to tell me, the president of the United States is sitting in his office with his chief of staff, youre coming in there, and theyre talking about dirty tricks stuff, and theres a war, and why arent they running the war and theres these dirty tricks stuff . Cant answer that. We had all been in campaigns, nixon had this rinky dink crap pulled on him. I dont know what made them him to buzz me in there. But they did. Its not a good excuse, but thats what i did. They didnt do it in 68. Did anyone do this . I have no idea. I wasnt asked to find a dick duck. I have been around a while, and so they may have asked someone else to do it in 68, i dont know. It had had to be paid for by somebody, and herb was a person who was involved on the money side of things and im not sure im not sure why i called herb, it may have been bob said, you know, get in touch with herb, i dont. But herb is the one but herb is the one i called. Herb is the one i turned it over to. Was this before the committee to reelect the president was established . Well, what year was well, what time frame was that established . I dont know when this happened with them asking me, but it seems to me that would have been in the prechina trip stuff. So this would be either late 71 or the first part of 72. Wen segretti is hired. And creep was created in 72 early probably. So probably very simultaneous. Im surprised they didnt ask creep to do this. Well, if they had asked creep to do this, it would have been much worse than asking me. Creeps reputation why did you think of segretti . I trusted don and i knew him from my usc days. And i knew that he would be i thought he would be good at this. Was he a prankster . No. He was smart and clever and he would be good. I mean, you mentioned this letter but letters to the candidate would also involve wed call and order 500 pizzas to be delivered for the so and so rally for the food. He would have things under the door of traveling parties saying having your bags out at 6 00 in the morning, and they werent supposed to be out until 10 00 in the morning or something. It would be just crazy stuff. Its so inconsequential. The ramifications of what happened arent, but the impact of it was zero. How did segrettis name get to the press . My understanding is that woodward and bernstein were the ones that came across him in october of 1972. Looking into some stuff, they found this name segretti, or a credit card receipt or whatever, and they just started working their way through it and exposed him. Lets talk about the watergate breakin. Did you know anything about those operations . No. I want to tell you something that i think is historically very important. And that is the weekend of the watergate breakin, it hatnebre on a saturday night. Right . Okay. There was a guy gerard smith, the arms control negotiator, his daughter sheila was having her 30th Birthday Party oiver on th eastern shore. And we were there for her party. And my good friend, henry cashin who worked for Chuck Collison and our wives, we drove back to this inn where we were staying. There was a message to call haldeman urgently. This is like 1 30, 2 00 in the morning. So i called bob. He says, do you know anything about any plan to do something to the Democratic Committee over at the watergate . I said, i have no idea what youre talking about. He said, you havent heard anything about this . Nothing . I said, no, sir, i have not one thing. He said, okay. Good night. That was the end of it. My point is that bob knew he was trying to find out what was going on. The night right after this had happened or whenever i may be a little off on whether it was 2 00 in the morning or 2 30 in the morning. Im sure the white house log will show it because i called through the switchboard. But hes trying to figure out what happened. In terms of any preknowledge of any kind on his part, there was none. Im convinced of it because of that story. To what extent did you pick up the reaction of haldeman and the president in the days that followed . I didnt. It was not even on my radar screen. We were off and running on whatever we were working on. It was so confined right there with them and not affecting me whatsoever. I just didnt know. When does it get on to your radar screen . Well, as it i dont know the i mean, i am making this up. I mean, i dont know when it got an my radar. But you do know theres a problem when segrettis name gets brought up. The name of the game wasnt to get to dwight chapin. The name of the game was to get to richard nixon. And im just a pawn in the process. Part of a battery ram to get into the white house. We made a very, very bad decision in hiring don segretti to do tricks on democratic contenders. Its wrong. And absolutely should not have been done. It was done. It became, among other things, a way to undermine confidence in the white house and to create this suspicion of bigger fish to be fried. You said you were too busy to know it was wrong . No. During this period when i didnt focus on it. I had no idea. I didnt say, dwight, is this right or wrong . One of the most interesting things that happened to me a few years later is i went down to texas to see some friends of mine. This pal said you have to meet this guy. His name was roger staubach. He was a quarterback at the Naval Academy. He said, dwight, were at the Naval Academy at the time youre going through all this. And he said, im trying to figure out what i would do if the president of the United States called me in and gave me an instruction. Would i do it or not do it . In retrospect now i would say, mr. President , i dont think its a good idea to hire somebody to do the dirty tricks. Thats common sense right now. At that moment in time, it didnt even god only knows. They buzzed me in. I dont even remember what i was doing before the buzzer went off. Does it make it right . No. But i did what i did. Did the president say anything . When haldeman spoke to you and asked you to do this . Dick tucktype stuff. He mumbled stuff. Youve been listening to tapes. We need to have somebody to do this kind of stuff. I dont remember what he said. But he was there. He participated in the conversation. He heard it clearly and nodded. Or whatever he did. Shlths ag shlths. Again, you were busy afterwards, but did haldeman check up on this . Haldeman was clueless as to anything don did. Did anybody ask . No. The guy is off. Hes a launched missile. Hes out there. Nobody knows. Its a hard thing for people to understand. You have a very well oiled machine. Right. Yeah. Everything is no surprises. Right. Try to explain where that fits into this. Thats a very good question. It doesnt. It completely goes against the grain of our operation. I guess it was incumbent upon me if don digressed and got into an area he shouldnt be in to have reined him back and kept him within some boundaries. Those boundaries werent set. If they were set, it was my comment to him where he says i said, dwight said do whats right and wrong. Youll know the difference. I really didnt spend time on it. It sounds foolish and dumb, and it was, but i didnt. What were you doing during the campaign . I mean, with most of your time. You come back from china. Oh, my god im involved in all of the scheduling for the president , the vice president. All the surrogates were meeting constantly. Meeting with creep. We have the convention coming up. I was on the group with peter daley that put together the advertising and all of that. We attended all those meetings. I mean, im in charge of the television office. Im running im into my world of campaigning. And not into my world of what is segretti doing. Its not a priority. Who comes up with the idea that nixon is the one . I dont remember. When were you sure that the president was going to be reelected . As the campaign moved along, probably in the Democratic Convention. The Democratic Convention would have been one of the keys. [ inaudible question ] when was i sure . When was i sure the president was going to be reelected . The Democratic Convention would have been a key point. Lets talk about election day. You went on vacation after the election . I did. I did. The election im going to run through this whole process. Theres some interesting things here, i think. The election was held. The next morning, we had a meeting in the roosevelt room where bob haldeman and the president came in and thanks everybody and so forth. He left. Bob haldeman asked for everybodys resignations. Really famous meeting. I was really i didnt think this was appropriate. I thought it was very so demotivating to everybody. So we wrote our resignations. I left a couple days later for ireland for three weeks. Thats a long time to be gone from the white house. We went with two other couples. I came back. The plane landed at andrews in the afternoon. The men came back on military plane. The women came back commercial. Went to the white house. Walked in. It was a sunday. I was going to look through my mail. The phone rings. Its john dean. John says, how was your trip to ireland . I said fine. Keep in mind, i didnt call anybody. Hes tracking me. He knew exactly when the car delivered me to the white house. He said, can i come by and see you in the morning . I said, yes. So he came by the next morning and he said, have you given any thought to what youre going to do next . And i said, john, what in the world are you trying to tell me . He said, i think you need to figure out what youre going to do next. I said, does bob know this . And he said, bob asked me to talk to you. I could not believe it. I went over to Richard Moores office. Unbeknownst to me until the haldeman diaries came out, moore knew all this, but he acted like he didnt. So i go to this older mentor Richard Moore and said, what is going on here . He says, i dont know. I went back to my office and called haldeman. He was at camp david. I said bob, do you want to talk to me . He says, i think we need to talk. He says, can you come up tomorrow . Now, i have to wait until the next day. I mean, this is im shook to my core, and i have to wait 24 hours. So the next day i get on a helicopter with gerry ford, which i thought was kind of interesting. Flew up to camp david. And bob met me. We went over to one of the cabins and talked, and we were both crying. He was crying. And he said that it looked like i was going to be a political problem to the president because of all this segretti stuff. Colson was a problem because of some of this stuff and this guy sam irvin may hold some hearings. And, therefore, its probably better for your career and Everything Else if you move on. It was just horrible. Theres nothing to describe how i felt. So i sucked it up. I said, yes, sir. Went into the mens room to get myself kind of straightened up, and there is the attorney general of the United States balling like a baby. He had just met with ehrlichman. I was thinking this is surreal. I cant believe this. So i went on the helicopter and went back and started figuring out my life, where i was going to go. I went on to United Airlines, but it was a very tough time. I was very fortunate that the men that they took and cut the losses and let me go, although in retrospect, there were a lot of other people that should have gone before me in my opinion. But the one thing it allowed was for me to get away from washington and out to chicago and out of that environment for basically my own good and my familys good. Before we get to you leaving washington, i want to follow up on some things. Did you have any warning when the material got into the Washington Post . None. It ran pardon me, i did have a warning. Yes, i knew it was coming. They had called ziegler or something for a statement. I did have a warning. I went that saturday night, susie and i went to dick moores house. I talked it over with dick moore. We got the Early Edition of the Washington Post. It came out around 11 30 on saturday evening. We read the story. It was on the front page. Righthand column story. Then we went home and then the next day, we left our house very early in the morning. We went back to the moores. And dick and i went into the white house and met with ehrlichman and ziegler. I think john dean was there. Im not certain. And tried to figure out how we were going to manage this and how we were going to handle it. We wrote out some statements. Then sunday night, we went back to the moores house, had dinner. Im telling this for a reason. Why we went home, drove in our driveway and i hear this, dwight, dwight. This guy comes out from behind a tree. I had known him for years through the campaign. It was bob simple of the New York Times hiding in my front yard. I said, they send a friend here to do this . And he said, im so embarrassed. And he said, i just hate being here. But thats how it all got started. Did segretti call you . I dont remember. I dont think so. I talked to him. Hes right there. He may remember. I dont remember. I mean, i was too focused on me. What was the game plan for you . It depends on where youre talking. We have the story, which i want to say was like october 19th or 20th. Somewhere in that range. Were coming right up on an election. Its going to get really hyped coming into this if it can do any damage. Theres that period up until when we wrote out our resignations. Then i go over to ireland. Then i come back and im off. Lets talk about october. It was just survival. Its hanging out there. Every day there are questions on it. To ziegler. I basically went incognito. Wed go into the white house, go to my office, leave, and go home. We didnt go anywhere publically. My habit was always to walk the ellipse every day at noon. I would see press. I quit doing all that. I just remember withdrawing. People started looking at you suspiciously. I now am older and wiser and i know when these kinds of things happen in washington, one should know thats getting close to curtains. I didnt even think of it that way. I thought, well, well get through this. Of course, you have to keep in mind i knew nothing about the watergate stuff. I was never called to a watergate grand jury. I was called to a grand jury on my thing, but nothing to do with the main thing or anything ever. So all that was happening, and i was clueless. Clueless. When you were fired, that meeting in the roosevelt room. The meeting when i went to camp david . What meeting . The day after the election. The day after the election was no. Thats when we wrote out our resignations. Camp david is when he said, i think you need to be going on. Thats after . Thats after the trip to ireland. When you handed in your resignation, you didnt really expect it . Furthest thing from my mind. Did you talk to haldeman about that episode . No. Well, i told him how dumb i thought it was at some point. Fred mallick and larry higby. I dont know who came up with this crazy ass thing but it was one of the stupidest things ever done, in my opinion. Plenty of people agree with me. You go away to ireland not thinking your job is in jeopardy . No. The segretti thing, has it gone away . No. What happened was while i was in ireland, john dean went and met with segretti and debriefed him. Came back and reported to haldeman and dick moore and they start realizing that this guy is out there running around. Maybe they found out that i had absolutely no control over him and i was a dereliction of duty. I dont know. But in any case, they came to the conclusion that one of the things to do was to take chapin out of the mix coming into this new administration to try to head off sam irvin doing some hearings. In retrospect, they were focused on the wrong guy. I probably should have gone because of what i did. But it seems to me, now what we know, there was much more severe things that needed to be addressed. Theres a grand jury. Did john dean talk to you before you went into the grand jury . Thats the Eddie Carlson part of the story where i mentioned that john dean was my attorney. The guy was running United Airlines said, not anymore. Were going to get you a lawyer. He was smart enough to know this was not right. What was john dean telling you . He was telling me that things would work out. He was keeping abreast of what was going on with me. Trying to keep track of where i was and what were my feelings. Its a very typical type thing when somebody is under the gun to say whats their temperament . Whats going on here . Is dwight off talking to the prosecutors . Whats going on here . The picture is so much more complex. I think john is being a nice guy. Hes in touch with me and so forth. When oh, ive left this out and its probably very important. When the story appeared in the paper on that sunday, then monday or tuesday, the fbi came to the white house. They met with me in john deans office. John left and didnt stay in the room. He had Fred Fielding stay in the room. Fred is Current White House counsel. Great guy. So fred is in the room with me. And the fbi agents, young guys, are asking me these questions. I answer everything truthfully. Thats how i was raised. I told them everything. Everything that i could possibly think of on this thing. They leave. The next day, it is on the front page of the Washington Post. They come back for followup questions, the fbi agents. The first thing they do is start off and apologize to me for that being on the front page of the paper and say they have no idea how it happened. Now we know through mark felt. They went back there, and however, that information was disseminated within the fbi headquarters, he got some of it and gave it to reporters. They were furious. And, of course, i was just madder than hell. I spilled everything to them. I told everything i could possibly think of on this thing. I thought that was the answer was to be forthcoming. And it all ends up on the front page of the paper. When was the last time you saw the president before you went before the grand jury . Probably it would have been in april of 1973. So i was working at the white house. I left the end of april and went to United Airlines. It had to have been in that timeframe. What did he say . After i went to prison, i took my daughters to san clemente with my wife and it was kind of awkward but he told the girls that their dad had done a good job for him and i had done important things for the country. But hes not acclimated. Ive been with him so many times under these conditions where were dealing with people have come in and something has happened to them or their family. This is not his strong suit. So i always felt i know he felt bad about things. I know haldeman as well. She told me how upset bob was from that camp david meeting with me. And i had never known this until about six months ago that he had really fell apart. He was just devastated that we had to that this happened the way it did. And i had never known that. You went to work for united in early 73. Yes. Met with the grand jury while you were there. Right. And then the trial. Yes. Tell us about the trial. It started on april 1st. Jake stein, my lawyer, who was Monica Lewinskys lawyer, jake said white will be over on friday because a washington jury doesnt want to come back on monday. And 5 00 friday night it was over. It was my judge was judge gearhart gazelle, a liberal democrat. Johnson appointee. And he did not like me. I looked different back then. I was a young man. Not too bad looking. Dressed nicely. Was probably on the cocky side, because that was my defense mechanism or something. I dont know. I dont know what i could have done differently. But there was no way of connecting with that jury. And jake had told me from the outset that our case probably would be won upon appeal. That i shouldnt expect from the conviction thing. We had a washington jury. We had nixon. The chemistry was just not right on this. The only thing that was really kind of startling was that the judge on voir dire asked the people to raise their hands that had heard of watergate. And he had a hundred people and maybe three hands went up. I thought uhoh. Whats going on here . They havent even heard this term. Its been in the media and people dont even read newspapers. It was a sad experience. My family was there. It was just very sad. I was the first person of all of the, quote, watergate thing to ever go to trial because everybody else pled. And i maintained my innocence. And the reason i maintained my innocence was in my heart of hearts when i went into that grand jury, i had no intention of lying. No expectation. Nothing. I went in to tell the truth. And i got stumbled up over saying, not that i recall. And there were a couple other things, but they are very close to that. Not to the best of my knowledge. So i came out of there thinking i had no problem. And earl glancer who is in a law firm in new york or in washington, says that there was a memorandum written by the arch bald cox people saying i was unindictable. And then the saturday night massacre happened. And then after the saturday night massacre, Leon Jaworski came in. They needed somebody quick. And they pulled out my testimony. They went through that testimony. And i was indicted within two weeks. And had the saturday night