>> our panelists will tell what they know from military strategy to amazing stories of your caning resolve as well as the terrible toll of human suffering. our panel will evaluate the response of the western world and discuss a path forward. our panelists are robert c o'brien, the 20th national security advisor before that served as an envoy for hostage affairs. ambassador o'brien is the cochair of the nixon foundation. sean penn is a academy award winner and he met with lome zelenskyy before evacuating. he is known for his humanitarian efforts. latest efforts include setting up operations in poland. finally, the fox news chief political anchor with brett bayer. ladies and gentlemen, welcome our battle. >> i want to ask you, national security advisor's, actor, activist, humanitarian, what is the connection between the two of you? >> before i became the national security advisor i was an envoy for hostage affairs. one of the thing president trump was known for was bringing americans who were held hostage back. among the people i was focused on was a young american journalist, a great young american journalist. he was taken hostage in 2012. i had to fight through the bureaucracy to get permission to go to syria to negotiate and try to get them home. i finally got the approval, i went to the middle east and we sent a letter, and they were not see me. then i got a call from sean, he had heard about the case, and he said let me go to syria and see what i can do. my approach was all of the above. i have mfn -- in a fan of sean as an actor, we met with personal risk to go into syria. i thought it was a really impressive gesture on his part as a humanitarian. >> there is been a few other incidents of this where my first stop would be to talk to someone at the state department and make sure i had an existing strategy, there was one in bolivia where the state department felt the deputizing exerted pressure, the bolivians responded by being david to goliath and it would not be valuable to continue that way. we were able to get americans brought back. you get excited when you play a small role in something like that. it became something i was looking to do. the people i talked to said you will have to talk to our boss. that is when the boss and i got together. four days after that, what is significant about brain trauma as i had seen the relief he got from doing postop for morphine. when i turned on the news the day of the earthquake in haiti, the reports ron amputations in children. because i had existing relationships with hugo chavez, and because actors in hollywood -- i knew i would not be able to call anyone in the united states with the regulations and an incredible man tells me they need 350,000 vials of morphine. i will get some friends and pickup truck's and delivered to the trauma center, and that happened. i remember going with the lt. col. and said will it be a problem for you if i have a box of morphine in my tent? he said we will make apologies later. >> your organization saves lives, strengthens communities affected by or vulnerable to crisis. obviously, ukraine is in that position. i want to talk about your past connection with ukraine, and as national security advisor before that, and how you look at that country before this latest crisis. >> 2014 when i was an observer, and i recall this is after the maiden protests when the ukrainians throughout the russian government, and for the first time will have democratic elections. i went with a group of former u.s. officials, democrats, republicans, former members of congress. we went to make sure the elections were free and fair. in one incident they were checking the ballot boxes and there was a lady who came to vote, had her daughter with her with a ukrainian flight. i said monitoring your daughter? she said i wanted to bring her so i can see that you can vote for her own leaders. my whole life was under soviet rule. now we are seeing their spirit, coldness. >> as national security advisor, you dealt with the region and putin. he sat just down the table in libya talks in berlin with mike pompeo. your assessment. >> is a cordial guy. soft-spoken. he believes the biggest geopolitical disaster of his lifetime with the collapse of the soviet union. his goal is to rebuild the russian empire. he has troops in georgia, is taken parts of moldova. he invaded crimea. he said this is something we haven't seen since germany and austria. if you appease dictators, give them a little bit of land, that will save them. we work hard and there are a lot of folks in the pentagon that say we cannot give the ukrainians missiles to defend themselves, i felt and the president felt it was just the opposite. it was those javelin missiles in the early days of the crisis. >> see the resilience and fight, may have surprised them. >> the president echoes, we thought what an interesting story would be. at that time we had a contact, we made our case we felt we could tell a story that was anchored and could eliminate these countries and ways it had not have previously been. we began a zoom conversation. one was not able to travel to the other. that is what put it off. we picked it back up and went in november, traveled through the country. we're going to involve an existing board of conflict and then an occupation and the big whacker scandal was going on. the president was not able to see us. we recovered musicians, cultural things. by that time, the tensions have begun. in november we had known this was starting to be an issue. then, the tensions were building to the point they are at today. i started getting phone calls from my partners in crime saying we have to get back now. maybe i looked out this time, you have to get on a plane. gonna plan -- you find out it happens when you are on the plane. stay to your schedule, this is the day, it will be fine. we are not here to create or invent the war for this documentary. we went, we were therefore five or six days. it's very tense. when many people on the fringe right separate them from people in this room, the fringe right wanted to take off my head, i was called an enemy of the state, anything, anytime i had done anything publicly, created any level of threat, i was have the fbi knocking on my door. at the same time, this level of caution said don't go, foreign services pulled out. don't go. so on. i was speaking the whole time. we calculated it would be fine whatever happened, sure enough, the first time i met president zelenskyy was the long agree to, we would bring a camera and say this is the way we will do it. we had that meeting, here he was , all of the elements are in place for the potential invasion, he certainly was prepared for that, but i don't think anybody wanted to give up what would've happened the next morning the russians invaded, the next time i saw him he was in camo in the world has changed. >> at that time, you know the buildup is happening, you are talking to people i do know the communications. you know he is going to go. i was talking to colleagues in washington and they said tell him not to go. stay in close touch. robert parson is a terrific guy. it's his job to get sean out. i counseled him not to go, he went anyway. the foundation of the legend. it is something we talked about earlier, what we are watching is very unique. we are watching a legend born. we don't know how it's going to play out, but we are watching it in real time. social media, interviews, we watching someone who has urged the united states, safe passage. he laid out what this is, this is good versus evil. they don't want a puppet government, and they're willing to fight for freedom. president zelenskyy is willing to go out with his people. he is not meeting from behind. he is at the front. made a mistake early on, did not work out well for davy crockett. try to come up with a better analogy, going with charles de gaulle. zelenskyy is there, is inspiring people, sean and my politics cannot be more different but we are good friends and that is the great thing about america and how it used to be, we have grown up with friends and anson uncles trying to do the right thing for freedom. that is the kind of friendship sean and i have. in this crisis, i spent a lot of time on the stump, we want to take back the house in the fall. that is something sean does not want to happen, but when i go out at these events, everyone is pulling for the ukrainians. i think sean has seen it on the progressive side, the democrat side, this is something uniting the american people because they are watching folks just like us, fighting for their lives, their freedom, against some bad actors who want nothing more than because they have a bigger country and more might, at least it looks that way on paper. they're just going to invade their country and take it over. that's not how we do things. >> i want to get back to the unity and mission. those early days where you are finally getting a decision where you have to stay or go. >> i would like to circle back to that and continue on the unity thing. as robert was saying, i would wager in this room there is an incredible amount of unity on the issue of the ukraine, i believe that what we owe ukraine is a unity that goes beyond that. in many cases it's the more sophisticated people who say there is nothing to be gained by trying to reach across the aisle. if there is anything we can do not a betrayal of you rain that is taking the opportunity of their ration, stop being cynical about the possibilities that we can understand ideas in so many cases, profiling that makes it a semantic schism and that there are so many things we can do as a country together. we have become so divided. going to ukraine, more than anything else is the impact of what we have been missing. it is something to realize what we have been missing with the everyday feeling about life. >> there are elements of both parties say why is this in our national interest, why should we push this envelope, why should we possibly face world war iii with a nuclear armed russia. there are elements of both sides, progressives and conservatives who say that. what do you say to that? >> a lot of this is, what if ukraine loses? look at what they have lost, the children killed, the women raped and mutilated, all of the brave soldiers, men, women and children who are fighting for the same dream that we share. the better question is, what if russia wins? nuclear war, god knows, there could be nothing more horrifying. yet, those questions exist, they are in hands. many hands. we have two problems. if we want to get them out of anyone's hands, look at the budapest memorandum and say the gradients gave up nuclear weapons, president clinton and yeltsin stood there, and what happened? the russians are invading and nobody is helping. a lot of tax dollars are going into javelins and stingers and other aspects of this, but without the united states direct presence, these aviation assets, that's putting nuclear war off to another day. i think we have to operate by enforcing and leaving as much as we can, we have to get in there and do the right thing and not be a nation that succumbs to intimidation and fear. >> some great points. one of the great moments was the end of the cold war, poland, that will probably be one of the good outcomes that we are going to strengthen nato. they were hoping that the germans and italians and but it includes sweden and finland, capable countries, they play in the arctic. that's one of the keep in mind, china, he wants taiwan. taiwan is the geopolitical court in the champagne model. the navy, the army runs rampant across the pacific. g thinking wants taiwan desperately for his own glory and for the geopolitical advantage. he's watching ukraine. he is going to go after taiwan. his watching military equipment get funneled into ukraine. his watching the ukrainian people fight to keep their freedom. this crisis goes far beyond europe. if we can cut pollutant and the economy off and fully decouple the russian economy from the free world, that is something china can afford. if china can't export to the u.s., china is in real trouble. there are levels of consequences to how we respond. >> we were hoping to get president zelenskyy on the skype. still meeting with dignitaries and may pop in. because of the respective both of these interacting, he wanted to get and be a part of this. bear with me. you're making the decision whether you're going and not going. you have impressed him. you have to make a call. >> once the invasion started, what happened was my colleagues in the -- we, i refer to it as where we met with him, it's probably a public secret. where we met with him was in such a place where we would not know if they turned into night. we would not know if other organic sounds, so we went in and daylight, the recommendation was we don't take the car back to where we are staying, two-mile walk. it was a great way to process the conversation. the city was under air raid, we knew rockets that had for sure -- we were trying to sort what we had seen, what it meant, we took this long walk back to the hotel, quietly, slowly. there was a television blackout, everyone was in a makeshift bomb shelter. went down there, talked about what was happening. we sat together and try to measure, not so much not getting ahead of oneself, what the information was on the ground, i was calling robert. >> we have a clip from that moment. you are on the phone. take a listen. [video clip] [indiscernible] [laughter] >> you talked to him. lost in translation. there are some wonderful people in the state department, this is nonpartisan work and i stay in touch with them, i let them know what to happening. he has to get out, outside of kyiv. surround the presidential palace. the administrative building. early on, the plan was going as russians hoped it would. it was someone close who said get out. full tank of gas, water, a wad of cash. drive about 60 miles from the polish border. have to go, have to go now. >> real-time conversations with various reasons had to make sure they did not get stuck for six weeks, hunker down, had obligations elsewhere where they felt there could be more value-added. it was what we thought was very good information. someone in leadership who needs to be at the frontline and needs to get out of the encircled area , it can be someone like me to go back and process this footage , anyway i can help get light on the thing, for any reason. that next day after that clip, we are talking, security consultants, saying our information is there, and he thinks the best time to leave is 10 minutes ago. i was only hoping he had a weapon. i said ok, i think you're going to go. had we left an hour later, the same people said pack your things, get into the car. give us one hour, and it's the same way they took us. one hour in the first part of the drive, an hour later it took 11 hours, and what is normally a 7 hour drive was for us a 25 hour drive because we came towards the main road. the bridge got blown up, now you don't know where you are plotting to get to. he said fuel is very important. it became its own odyssey. this incredible experience of what these people represent. i went back to ukraine a couple of weeks ago, now we are operating inside and outside, hoping it would add up to something of value. >> you talk about him is this figure stepped up, a few weeks ago i interviewed president zelenskyy, talking to people around the world. is he fearful? take a listen. [video clip] >> tension has been key to the resistance strategy. what happens when interest wanes? are you worried the west has a short attention plan? >> it's a problem. you will see how dictators will change. it will not be the last war in the world. it will be the first. >> he said that in english, saying if you don't stop them now, they are going to continue. just got word, he is still meeting with terry's, but this is a leader who is remarkable. >> absolutely. in responding to that and circling back, it's only hindsight being a lesson for us now. certainly, there is a great case to be made that had we exercised and saving a lot of lives. the initial and logical thought was if prudent invaded, it would be to take advantage of the winter and how energy would break the back of the ukrainians and others. now we are in the warmer days, and this is the moment to offer in anyways necessary so maybe we ride a bike. i think a real shutdown, it was one of the first things i talked about, and putin is in a position of being humiliated. the sanctions i believe would have an impact and stop this from happening. >> there was back-and-forth about domestic leadership, how parties talk about it. what people don't understand is this sanctions regime. how this is not affecting russia, gas companies are making more money, the price of gas is up. why aren't these sanctions fighting and stopping putin? >> it's called the swift system, the way banks communicate with each other. we put sanctions on the russian central bank which prohibits them from operating in dollars. oil and gas sales are all in dollars. we exempted oil and gas, women's the latest thing -- [laughter] the only thing was exempted. we had this odd situation where putin continues the war, as the price of oil goes up, putin and his cronies, one of whom is a former chancellor of germany, those guys make a ton of money. he is making more money now after sanctions and he was making before. unless we are going to cut off the oil and gas sales, the war is not going to end. we need our allies to contribute, we can cut off ourselves, most of our allies are on board. unfortunately, the germans had nord stream 2, refused to pay 2% for nato, the ones that have the cozy relationship with russia, it's hard for the germans. they have made some good steps recently. they have made some good, vladimir putin will have plenty of money. there now in mali, africa, he will have all of the resources we have to cut off oil and gas sales. people wanted to give him a ladder, he is showing as this invasion continues. >> you think ukraine can win this. >> when we do something like this, with cameras, we all recognize there is a legacy, i wager everything. when that tape is played, the ukrainians are going to win, and but we are going to be doing is say how many lives will be lose to win that fight. that is the calculation right now. >> why do you think it's this that unifies the progressive side and conservatives? i talked about the differences, but there is also a lot of unity. why do you think it's this? >> as we talked earlier, it is commonly considered that there is little ambiguity to this conflict. the other thing that is significant that their skin is not brown and black. the shape of their eyes is not different from ours. what is significant and powerful about that is because of the lack of ambiguity of the mission, the mission for democracy, the fight for the freedom to dream, this can be the example that we can apply to so many other bases that we have neville -- never been able to break that wall of our own, the unfamiliarity but if there were no cameras, senators would have rewriting. i don't know if you would want that. there's a lot of people -- you angered a lot of people on that committee. >> when i was in the navy, -- kept me sane. [indiscernible] he had a bad habit. he had a big appetite, and he would rummage in the rations. one day, pete got into the medic's bag, the morphine. it got the better of him. when a monkey cries, lord, i tell you, sounds like a child. they said lieutenant, the problem with loving something too much is that you cannot do what needs to be done. she's not a monkey, john. she's your wife. >> all right, john mitchell, that does not look like you at all. [laughter] how about that? that's transformation. talk about this program. >> the word to me is resilience. julia roberts had worked with a filmmaker on a project called "homecoming," and they had come to this project about watergate. it started as a podcast. what's fascinating about it, as a kid -- i don't even remember why, but i was eating up the watergate footage. so i knew all the public stories. i did not know much about the things going on behind the scenes in their lives. the crisis that it meant to the country in so many ways. it was hysterical. the total incompetence of the plumbers. it was not anything we had seen out loud with so many extreme characters with extreme flaws pulling the chains on it, and yet, also people who, like us, loved their spouse, were concerned about their personal lives. so it was a really accessible way that young people in particular, which i think when any of us do anything, we think, what can we offer them that we previously failed to offer them? it is a great way to step into that historical lesson. it is incredibly timely. as it turned out, a lot of themes related to what that time meant for the united states and what is going on today. julia and i had several times where we wanted to work together on several things, and it took until this one that it all worked out, so we all went and jumped and did it. >> how long did it take to make it? >> i think the first couple times, it's about seven hours in the chair. then like a pit crew getting the team outfitted, it got down to about four hours every morning. that will tax the mind. >> well, looks great. listen, thank you so much for doing this today. when does the documentary come, do we know? >> the documentary itself was a pretty fluid thing. if we feel we have a piece of footage that somehow furthers -- this is -- there is a moment i don't know if we are going to put it in, there was a moment i was talking with somebody who works with the president. and people will, you know, criticize me as making a pro-uganda propaganda film, and i just found myself looking into the camera and saying, i hope so. this is not -- we are not -- this is not without bias. we are clear about the position this film is going to take, but i think we would like to tell a full story, but we will release something -- if we stumble on a piece of something that we think tells the mission, we will air it. in the meantime, we plod away. >> what is next for you? >> well, we will see what happens in november. [laughter] by the way, i would like to see mr. mccarthy as speaker and mr. mcconnell continue as leader. [applause] >> thank you so much. [applause] [speaking foreign language]
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