Get to prosecute you for violating our laws even if i dont accept that youre subject to the more complete jurisdiction. Your question goes at it from the other end. If were waiving their compliance with even all the laws, even under jims version of subject to the jurisdiction, theyre not entitled to birthright citizenship. That, i will pass over to you. Yeah, look, yes, absolutely. If the 14th amendment said only the children of u. S. Born only the u. S. Born children of citizens are entitled to birthright citizenship, yes, we can still enforce immigration laws. The two have nothing to do with each other. Well, this has been a great debate. I want to thank you both for being here. Please join me in thanking our speakers. Today the president s in camden, new jersey speaking about the criminal justice system. Live coverage of the president s remarks starts at 4 15 eastern on cspan 2. Later on, the House Veterans AffairsCommittee Hears testimony from subpoenaed witnesses on the alleged misuse of a department of Veterans Affairs program relocating workers. Thats live at 7 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan 2. Our landmark cases series continues tonight. Our Program Follows the case of shank versus united states, where in 1917, charles shank was arrested and found guilty for distributing literature against the world war i draft. Thats live tonight at 9 00 eastern on cspan and cspan 3. Justin webley is the archbishop of canterbury. Recently he talked about the role of religion and Global Affairs with nprs tom gjelten. Topics include the refugee crises in europe and the rise of religiously motivated violence. This is just over an hour. Thank you very much. Welcome, everyone, to the council on Foreign Relations. Thanks for coming on this especially early morning. I hope it will be a good and stimulating start to your day. Im tom gjelten from npr where i am the religion and relief correspondent. Its my honor to lead this Council Meeting today with the most reverend justin welby, archbishop of canterbury. Reverend welby is the senior bishop and principal leader of the church of england and symbolic head of the worldwide anglican communion. Hes the 105th in line in that position going back many hundreds of years. Im going to be engaging reverend welby in conversation for about 30 minutes, then you will get your turn to jump in. One reminder, those of you who are regulars here at the council know its your duty to turn off your cell phones at this point so were not interrupted. So welcome, reverend welby. Thanks for squeezing us in. I know you have a busy schedule and a very short visit here to washington, just for a couple days. Sadly, yes. Maybe you could begin by giving us a sense of the anglican communion worldwide, the church here in the u. S. But also around the world. Give us a sense of the communion. The communion is has churches in about 165 countries, with 38 what we call provinces, each headed by a presiding bishop. I have never quite worked that out but there you are. Sounds to me like a camping stove. The primus is very good, it does the same role. The 38 provinces are each autonomous but interdependent. The church of england for historic reasons to do with the empire, to do with the expansion of christianity through britains role in mission, Foreign Missions in the 19th century, is the sort of where it all started from and the see of canterbury as its called is the titular center of the Anglican Community. The average anglican is an african woman in her 30s, living in Subsahara Africa on less than 4 a day. So what you see in this country or in the united kingdom, aus industrial i cant, new zealand, canada, is really the exception. On the whole, to use pope francis phrase, we are a poor church with the poor. Its an amazing statistic. And theres about 18 million of them. 18 million. Roughly. And so where that is a very important data point. But where does the where is the concentration . Whats sort of the macro data behind that . Where is the membership growing . What are the trends you see . Its very typical of many of the traditional historic churches. The main line churches typically are growing in the global size a south and so are we and shrinking or static in the global north and so are we. In england, we were at our height in the 1930s, about 3. 5 Million People, and today we are about 1. 2 million, bit more, 1. 5 million depending on how you measure it, and whereas in nigeria, roughly 17 to 20 Million People attend Anglican Churches on a regular basis. Now, you say that these provinces, 38 provinces, are autonomous. What exactly does that mean, specifically with relation to your own role as archbishop of canterbury . What does it mean to be the symbolic head of the Anglican Community . Well, you probably, some people may know belfours correct saying about the house of lords in the united kingdom, that the house of lords has power without responsibility. The privilege throughout the ages. The archbishop of canterbury has responsibility without power which is the privilege of the monk throughout the ages. It is a symbolic role. I cannot order anyone to do anything. So when we gather the primeates which were hoping to do in january, the first time in four years, its an invitation, its not an instruction. And if i gave an instruction quite properly they would ignore it. But that works in england as well. The archbishop of canterbury has influence but not power. And i think that is the key thing and the influence depends on a mixture of Spiritual Life and of seeking to work with and build groups focused on particular issues that affect the communion or the church of england or whatever it happens to be. So its not a personal primacy the way the pope is. The way that it works in Different Countries is very different. In many countries in Subsaharan Africa when the archbishop says something, the people tend to do what theyre told. In england, they consider that an interesting suggestion as a starter for discussion. So with so many of your members, so many of the provinces being in the global south, what challenges does that present to you as the archbishop . You just mentioned just outside the door here that from here, you head basically to cairo. To what extent does that reflect the way you structure your work . Is that Mission Structure would be a euphemism. Symbolic to use the word of the morning. I think what it is, its not unique to us. Quite the reverse. We are just a type, a paradigm in some ways, of the problem i think most people in this room will be facing and this is a theme i have been more and more conscious of over the last year. That if you have a mobile telephone, modern mobile telephone, apple or iphone or Something Like that, you have the entire world in your hand. All the stuff comes in from twitter, through the news feeds, through the blogs, its all there. But there is no personal relationship. So you have variety, diversity, coming at you at a huge rate in an unprecedented rate. In the 19th century when the divisions in the Anglican Community were certainly as complicated as they are now, they took several months to get to you by ship. Now they come at you in microseconds. And yet, you dont have the personal facetoface contact which enables you in the way that through diplomacy, through prayer, through interaction at the human level, through facing, to deal with that and thats typical of business, of diplomacy, of the church, of many many different areas. So there are two ways, first of all, we have to build structures that enable us to be able to trust each other and not to be drawn into conflict by our structures within any institution, any global institution, and thats a massive challenge. Its a massive challenge for everyone here as well as for us. Secondly, you do have to spend time going to see people and sitting down with them and listening with them so when im in cairo, later in the week, i will be sitting listening to some global south primates who will be quite critical of things ive done and they may well be right. Theres often plenty to be critical of. And i will listen to them, we will pray together, and the diversity is held in personal relationship. But i think thats a common problem in the world today, which we are increasingly struggling to deal with. Youre being quite candid about the disagreements or even divisions within the communion. Pope francis has talked often about, he uses the term idealogical colonization referring to the sort of tendency of liberal congregations in the north sort of imposing their kind of liberal agenda around social issues on the south. Were all familiar i think with what happened here in the Episcopal Church a few years ago with the ordination of a gay bishop and the ramifications that has had throughout the south. Can you explore that a little bit . What has been your experience as archbishop in dealing with these really difficult disagreements, principally around issues of sexuality, social issues, marriage, homosexuality, et cetera . Well, im very aware that in this room, that most people have forgotten more about this than i will probably ever know so i will speak cheerfully as i usually do from ignorance. I think one of the things that strikes me, and i need to declare an interest, i came from a family that on my mothers side that was involved in running bits of the British Empire for generations, so im one of the bad people on this, that when you talk to leaders in the global south, whether its politicians or listen to people in the global south, whether its politicians or church leaders, religious leaders, we need to remember that religion in the global south is still the predominant feature of life. We mustnt forget that. Someone a few years ago involved in ngo said oh, were going to do this, they were talking about a particular country in Subsaharan Africa. They said we are going to do this not involving religious people because they will be biased. I tactfully said which telephone box are you going to meet in. You cant get away from the reality of religion. But the sense with leaders that colonization has not stopped, its merely undergone a metamorphosis. Its become it looks like Something Else. Let me give you two examples. First of all, economically. Many countries in Subsaharan Africa, burundi, for example, need to develop their economy through agriculture yet they have immense difficulties shipping Agricultural Produce into europe because of subsidies by the european union. That is a form of colonization. It keeps them in poverty, keeps them in dependency. Socially, you have mentioned the issue of sexuality is one that goes intensely deeply into the way that the world is understood by all of us. Its a question of identity for many people, for almost all people, and the imposition as it is seen in the global south of new approaches to what it is to be human is resented more deeply than it is possible to describe. And this is a sense of hang on, you are telling us whom and what we should be. A senior figure in one country said to me a few years ago, he said i didnt go through, he was an elderly man then, he said i didnt go through the colonial period and get rid of you people in order for you to come back in a different form and do the same to me as you were doing before. And i think theres that sense, that colonialism has not stopped. Im not saying that gives us a solution but i think we do need to be frank and to identify the problem very, very clearly. Its economic, its social, its on issues like sexuality where our understanding of the nature of the human being has changed very dramatically in the postwar period and it goes to a lot of philosophical underpinning of our views of the human being, the postmodernist move towards radical autonomy has a profound effect on the way we see our society should be structured, which does not cohere with many other countries. So as at least the symbolic head of the Anglican Community, do you see that there is a place for Church Teachings, or is there no room for Church Teachings sort of in the global sense . Do you have to sort of leave the definition of doctrine, therefore, to each province . No. Absolutely not. If were going to talk pure church here, at the heart of Christian Faith is at the heart, at the core is the encounter with jesus christ, with the risen living present jesus christ. For those who are christians, we understand that in different ways, but we meet jesus, it is all about jesus. There isnt another way, its not a body of doctrine in which jesus features. Its about jesus and the doctrine springs from the churchs struggle to understand who this figure was, this figure understood to be both for the g fully god and fully human. So when we come back to that, when we come back to the call of christ, to serve the poor, to sacrifice, to take up his cross, to bear suffering with him, the church tends to unite albeit struggling with issues of doctrine. But what we all struggle with and im not criticizing anyone else, what i find within me as well as in the situation in which i work, we struggle with wanting our own view of how that doctrine applies to be the universal view. So no, we cant just say well, in england, you can believe this and in kenya, you can believe that. Thats not how Christian Faith works. We believe that in christ, we are all one. National barriers and racial barriers and stereotypes are broken down or extinguished, dissolved. That is crucial. Thats my hope and vision for the communion. My prayer for the communion is it will be a place which says in a world of immense diversity coming at you in your face, there is hope to live together, to be a people who collaborate for the common good, serving christ and the anglican commute is one of those bodies that should demonstrate that. Just to take one example, would you let i guess you have no choice, but to let each province then sort of approach the issue of the role of women sort of at their own pace. Yes. We do. At their own pace, given that it took the church of england just over 30 years from saying there is no doctrinal objection to the ordination of women as bishops to the point where we ordained women as bishops, at our own pace is not always noticeably swift. So you have done a lot of work in africa and the issue of religious violence is pressing around the world but its hard to imagine it being any more intense than in countries like nigeria, for example. But throughout Subsaharan Africa, tensions between muslims and christians have turned violent in so many cases. Talk a little bit about what role you have played and what role the communion has played in attempting to resolve some of these very deep issues. I think the communion lets talk about the communion and i will say one or two things about myself but trying not to overpersonalize it. Over the first 20 months that i was in post, i managed to visit with my wife all 38 provinces to meet the primates, not to see the whole province. That would be ridiculous. But just to meet personally with the primates in each province. One of the things that was most striking in that, one of the common features in that, was involvement in reconciliation work and mediation work. It seems to somehow be in the dna of anglicanism, despite our own differences we seem to find ourselves doing this stuff. So when you go to the south sudan, we had a particularly memorable trip to the south sudan, which at the time was in the middle of some very very severe fighting, bodies everywhere and it was a dreadful, dreadful place of suffering. And the drc similarly, we were there a few days later, eastern drc. What we found in south sudan was the aurchbishop leading the reconciliation work. We see that all over the place. So the communion, i know that the presiding bishop here has been very involved in this, the communion is deeply involved in reconciliation and in our own struggles we need to find a way of modeling how you do that. We will always have significant differences. Thats sort of off piece, thats in parentheses. My own role i think is having some difficulty despite my best efforts to be everywhere, always, is to bless that work of reconciliation and to strengthen it and for us to encourage and develop local skills in reconciliation where they are facing conflict. More than half or provinces are facing prosecution or are in actual conflict. More than half. More than half. So that really means this is for me, one of the key issues because war is so the more you see of it, i spent quite a lot of time during this over quite many years now, long before i was archbishop, the agony that you see is beyond all description and as many people here know, it sears the soul. What so we need to be involved in that. What does that look like . I think it involves building skills and building capacity in the way that you would expect, but it also involves a willingness to reexamine ourselves and our own role in conflict. The west, the Economic System which often generates conflict, the overspill from conflicts in which we may have been involved i think one of the striking things in Northern Nigeria was has been over the years that the way they have watched the mesopotamia and the holy land and the developments there and have found either inspiration or provocation from them. Its not the decisive reason. Theres plenty of very local, the main reasons are locally historic based in ethnic and religious features, but it contributes. And we also need to get away from simply a binary christianmuslim question. In myanmar, i had a call when we were there, we were meeting bishops whose whole diocese were torn apart by fighting going on which involved no muslims. South india, we have seen significant pressure on Anglican Churches and other churches there over the last 18 months, two years. Almost one of the most interesting socioeconomic developments of the last four or five years, it seems to me, perhaps ten, is the development in all the major global faith traditions of a stream within them of radicalized violence. Now, i dont know why this is happening, but i think it bears significant research. Its something we should think more about. Why is it that so many faith traditions are seeing a radicalization of a small proportion, but a significant proportion of their adherents . What is it thats behind that and how is the mainstream within each faith tradition strengthened to give a narrative that challenges and subverts sufficiently the narrative of the radicalized people . I think thats a very important point, to take it out of our preconception is so wrapped up in radical or extreme islam. You are extending that, saying this is a bigger problem than that. Im saying its global. I dont think im im copying other people saying its global. I happen to have an original idea as long as i can remember. Im saying its global. Im archbishop of canterbury, im terribly important. Lets forget that. It is global. Its generational and it is idealogical. And the use of a phrase i discovered actually meeting with some people in the Armed Services not long ago was kinetic force. I understood after awhile they meant killing people. And blowing things up. And blowing things up. Yeah. Or both. And the use of violent force in many of these conflicts may, i mean, some of us here will be pacificists, others not like myself. Maybe its justified on a quasipolice analogy as a way of creating space, time, safe havens, whatever. But in the end, these issues are going to be dealt with principally idealogically and th th theologically and like it or not and many people in secular government dont like it, we have got to deal with the religious mindset and get inside the religious mindset in order to have a serious impact on these conflicts. If you look at the three most radical islamic groups in mesopotamia, including isis, daesh, whatever you call them, one of the common features for them is a deep conviction that we are in the end times. This is just about the world is about to end. Well, when thats your view, it does slightly change your response to people attacking you, because you havent got a lot to lose. In fact, youve got everything to gain. Its that narrative that needs to be subverted and shown to be false within their own idealogical framework. If we are going to begin to have impact on those groups. You have not always been in the church. You started out in the oil industry and you worked in africa. You know, i have said sorry for this many, many times. Well, this is a new audience. Tell us a little about that experience and explain how the oil industry . You dig holes in the ground, black stuff comes up, you plug it, you make money. What did you learn from that . Dont dig the holes in the wrong place. Which we did. What did i learn from that. I think that i learned well, lets say one thing in favor of the oil industry. Forgive me, but im going to. Its probably in my bones somewhere. That the oil industry and Global Industries are made up of people. Thats the first thing. So im very loathe to be easily condemnatory of large institutions, global institutions. They do have that culture, some cultures are deeply unhealthy, some are very healthy. I had the good fortune in my last company to work with one with a very healthy culture and that was wonderful. What was your job . I was group treasurer. I looked after i ran the money. So i borrowed lots of money and spent it. Spent it and paid some back, and then quit before it came back to haunt me. I think it was a big it was small by Oil Industry Standards but large by company standards. One of the other things is the importance of focus and of research, of trying to find out what youre talking about before you get into it. Now, thats not always been one of my strengths. Probably still isnt. But i think the importance of saying when we look at a current problem, challenge, like religiously motivated violence, what are the key features of this, to what can we contribute, what shortterm objectives make sense that we can make a difference to, what can we do that only we can do, because thats the only thing we should do. Its very easy in this role to sound off about, you know, people are bad, it would be better if they were nice. But that doesnt get you very far. So i think one of the key things i learned was a certain pragmatism which is probably in my nature anyway. Was there a moment when you pragmatism is too easy an answer. Was there a moment where you sort of was there a moment of crisis for you, where you saw, i mean, working in africa, you were exposed, im sure, to a lot of suffering yeah. And was there a moment when you sort of realized you wanted to sort of do Something Else . Yes. There wasnt a moment when i wanted to do Something Else, there was a moment when i felt compelled. I mean, the short answer. Its difficult to answer that question without sounding either flippant or hotline to godish but the reality is we were at church one evening, my wife and i, and when i was in my 30s, and we were listening to a very good sermon actually by an american who was talking about his own call to ministry and i had a sudden very clear sense that thats what i ought to be doing. As we drove home, i said to her you know, this has happened, what do you think. So we spent about 18 months, two years exploring that and going through the process of application. But there was a moment when it came into my mind. The longer we went on through the two years, the less i wanted to do it. So i have said this before. Its quite a onenote story but it bears repeating. My final interview with the bishop at a residential conference in the north of england, he said, his opening question to me was why do you want to be ordained. I said i dont. So he looked surprised and said what are you doing here which was a reasonable question. I said i cant get away from it. He said what will you do if we turn you down . I said go back to london, take my wife out to the best meal i can afford to celebrate. So there you are. All right. Well, this is a fascinating conversation and now its your opportunity to join in this conversation, raise your own questions. I do ask you in the council on Foreign Relations style obviously to wait for the microphone, speak directly into it and begin by giving your name and your affiliation. Yes, sir. Right next to the microphone. Thank you, archbishop. Im jake with the hindu american foundation. I appreciate your presence here today. Your counterpart, pope francis, in a trip to latin america, apologized to the Indigenous Peoples for grave sins of the church in spreading their doctrine in colonial times. What role can the Anglican Church play to also facilitate a dialogue along those lines for some of the for some of the damage done to Indigenous Peoples, particularly in some of the places you mentioned where there are conflicts today . I think we have to acknowledge our responsibility very clearly. My family as it happens were mainly in what is now india and also what is now pakistan. I think we have to acknowledge the failures that there were there and the church needs to acknowledge its part in those failures. And to say sorry for that. We have done that and i continue to do that and feel that very deeply. I think we also particularly need to acknowledge the way in which too often, faith is not so much followed the flag as piggybacked on the flag and was used by government and also used government to establish its power rather than to seek to challenge. There were other places as with the catholics in latin america where there was an honorable defense but very often, it was the acquisition of power. And as in all institutions, there is an extraordinary mixture of the deeply wicked and the enormously heroic. You look at people like Archbishop Tutu in south africa and you see extraordinary heroism, virtue, beauty of life. There were plenty of other extraordinarily bad examples. So it comes back to honesty about our history and a reality about our history. Studying, recognizing where the myths have been established and demyth ologizing the way we behave. It also comes to listening to the hindu christian for umforum Muslim Christian forum to listening to their critique of how we are today. We spend a lot of time doing that. In england. Yes, sir. Thank you, archbishop, very much for the time you have given us today. As you know, data shows that both membership and attendance in Anglican Churches, the church of england, the Anglican Community, is declining and significantly so. Its the same trends we are seeing in american catholicism and american organized religion in general. Many reasons for this but one of the issues that interests me is when you look at younger people and their disconnectedness with religion, they are they are actually having problems with the basic message of christianity and the death resurrection, salvation represented in jesus christ. Against that background, you and pope francis have a lot in common. I wish. No, but your fundamental belief in the christian message and in jesus christ, you are both humble, you are both simple in the way you deliver your messages and both of you, you have a pope who writes an encyclical where he shows a pretty good grasp of chemistry, you write and speak with great eloquence on morality and ethics in Financial Institutions and energy and you both have tremendous capacity for the poor. So again, against that background, why dont we see more collaboration when youre both fundamentally facing the same challenge with regard to new generations and also the information age, where younger people in particular are getting their information they are not getting it from going to stone churches and singing anglican hymns, they are getting it from a lot of sources of information in which the church finds itself in competition. So these are pretty serious problems, it seems to me, and what a great thing it would be to see a kind of dream team of you and pope francis out there building sentiment for a true revival of religion in the western world. Im very cautious about putting myself in the same sentence with pope francis. He is a most extraordinary global leader. Most extraordinary. But yes, our divisions within the church are institutional divisions, profoundly hindering to the work of the church in the western world and for that matter, around the world. They are deeply damaging. And i wish i knew the answer to that. Its a bit like well, i wont use that analogy. We have been separated from rome now since 1532 or somewhere around about there, depending on which particular bit of henry viiis rome you pick. And after the thick end of 500 years, separation becomes a bit of a habit. Its just how you think about the world. And i think our first step is to challenge that psychology of separation that has set in so deeply. For instance, at lamberth palace, the wonderful place to have the privilege of living in when im in this role in london, its quite a big place, a very big place indeed, and we have started a community recently led by Roman Catholic, a Roman Catholic monastic community. There are fi16 in the community and theres 16 resident, 23 nonresident. We had over 500 applications for those 16 places from people who have given up their jobs, their careers, paid a significant sum of money in order to work extremely hard, not to have very much money at all in quite simple conditions and spend an awful lot of time in prayer and study as well as their extremely hard work, and they are aged between 23 and 35. This is not they are deeply attracted by that. I think one of the things the church has to do is stop is to say that the Christian Life is a life of challenge in following jesus christ. Take up your cross and follow him. And when we dont softpedal that, the response from younger people seems to be absolutely extraordinary. And when we say when its all about selfvalorization, whatever it happens to be, they think there are millions of ways i can do that that are slightly less complicated. Take up your cross had a pretty strong message at the time of jesus, still seems to now. But the community, every single day, we pray a prayer that comes from the community that we will feel the pain of our separation and they are of all denominations. Anglican, catholic, pentacostal, whatever. And we are living the pain of that separation day by day, every time we have a communion service. Some people cant receive. Others can, depending on who is celebrating, which priest is celebrating. We have to challenge this habit of separation. There are no easy answers to it. But it is something that we cannot live comfortably with. We have to challenge it and we start with our social action together which is what were doing. Its not a very good answer but its the best ive got at the top of the moment. Yes, sir. Back here in the middle. Jacob harold with guide star. Im wondering if there is a theology of Climate Change, and i ask this because it seems to me that Climate Change is a different kind of issue because of longterm time horizons, physical interconnection, a sense of risk. Would you agree, is there a distinct theology of Climate Change . Yes. I think there very definitely is. You are talking to one of the least scientifically capable people on the face of the planet, as far as i know. I do try and keep up with this and read up about it but i dont pretend to any expertise at all. But theologically, yes. The theology starts with god as creator, however one understands that, god as creator. It continues with the church as existing in time and space. The church through time and space, geographically and temporally. Therefore there is a profound commitment to there is a profound overriding of the temporal horizons of our own lifetimes. And it has also within it the stewardship of creation with which humanity is entrusted. Now, those are three of the key Building Blocks for a theology of Climate Change and how we deal with that. Within that, we have to apply the science and im not going to go further down that road, but we have to apply the science. People like lord stern, Nicholas Stern in the uk, plenty of equivalents over here, and pope francis was profoundly advised by a great many experts as you see in his recent encyclical but yes, there is a very clear theology which says that the love for those who we dont see because they are not yet born is as important as the love for those who we do see because they are all around us. There is also a common responsibility to the most marginal people on earth which is part of solidarity, which is a key to both catholic and christian social teaching. When i talk to our primate in melanesia or polynesia, he says this is really quite poor because actually, we are literally drowning. Yes, maam. Alisa massimino. One of the trends we see now is the rise of antisemitism in europe and antisemetic hatred and violence. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what youre doing to help build bridges between christians, muslims and jews and then if you have a moment, i would love to hear also about your thoughts on the role of the church in the broader communion in dealing with the refugee crisis in europe. Thank you. Ill try and keep it very short. One, i discovered after the newspapers sort of started digging into my past when i was appointed to this role, they discovered that my father was in fact jewish. So this was slightly a surprise. He had not mentioned that. He died in the 1970s and there you are. So this is something and his family fled from germany before the great war, foreseeing trouble very wisely, but some didnt and suffered the consequences. Thats the sort of declaration of interest, really. Okay, in terms of the rise of antisemitism, antisemitism i dont think theres a rise of antisemetism. I think theres a reemergence of latent antisemitism that is deeply imbedded in european culture and always has been. I dont think theres new people becoming antisemitic who were previously not antisemitic. I think that there is this sense that it existed in europe, that emerges catastrophically from time to time. It is very powerful. What are we doing, we are doing some of the sort of public stuff, symbolic stuff which goes which i think is important to make these statements so we had the parliamentary groups report on antisemitism, we hosted the launch of a major report earlier this year at the palace and that got a lot of attention three weeks before the election, a number of top politicians came to that despite the fact they had other things on their mind and from right across the political spectrum. We are very tough where we find antisemitism within our own clergy and we are very, very straightforward with that. The communion, so it is a challenge and i think we need to keep speaking about it. Need to speaking about it. Its one of those challenges that you can never take for granted. And we have to remember that in europe, im not saying the united states. In europe, we have very little moral standing when it comes to dealing with antisemitism. Our history is too bad and too long to have we need always to speak with great humility. Secondly, the issue around the refugees, the church of epg land bishops, weve been working very hard with the government. Ive spoken in the house of lords. One of the strange things about this job is i sit in parliament and was very involved in the debate on how many refugees we took. And we have been having very clear discussions with the government on the numbers that should be taken. Around the world, the anglican communion has been less impacted because on the whole its our biggest parts and the places from which refugees are coming, not to which theyre going. Europe, theres a friend of mine, actually, an old friend of mine called the bishop in europe. We dont call him the bishop of europe because weve already got one of those in rome. And it would seem a little presumptuous. And the bishop in europe, we have chaplains across europe, 300, 400 churches across europe. Its in east athens and places like that, bucharest, have been working unbelievably hard on the ground in meeting the needs of the refugees appearing. As the communion, this is an area, there are no, according to u. N. Figures a few weeks ago, 59. 7 million unhcr, 59. 7 refugees around the world. Its not only in europe. And when we meet, that may well be one of the issues we discuss because places like tanzania, congo, burundi, rwanda, uganda, the great lakes generally west africa, have numbers of refugees that are far greater than those coming into europe who are entirely forgotten and perhaps one of our roles is to remind people of the poorest of the poor. Whose struggle and suffering is beyond all description. Even compared to the appalling situation of refugees on the borders coming into europe. What are these primaries telling you about the conditions that drive their people to leave . A lot. Its nothing surprising. Its war. Its poverty. Its inequality of opportunity. Its persecution. Which the u. S. Government, of course, is particularly good on confronting. Its its also societal breakdown in other ways. There is a growing trend of breakdown of families which leaves children and as always above single women immensely vulnerable. Modern trafficking, trafficking of slaves affecting over 30 Million People is a major driver, particularly in women being trafficked into being sex workers. I was meeting a charity last thursday not far from london, extraordinary young women who about seven or eight years ago, they just operate off no money at all. Their budget is 1,000 pounds, 1500 a month for all of them. Only one of them gets any pay at all. And they work with sex workers in that particular area. They reckon 80 of the people they worked with have been trafficked. 85 . Very, very rare to find someone who is not trafficked. And their work is to try and first of all give them a sense of their Human Dignity and secondly then practically to try and find ways forward. What is driving this is all the things that have always driven it. Given that we now know about it, we have to excuse for not responding to it. Yes, sir. Dane smith. What suggestions, archbishop, do you have for religious leaders and laypeople in promoting christianmuslim dialogue and reconciliation . Challenge stereotypes. We have to start recharging stereotypes. We have to start with actually sitting down and meeting with people. Were doing a lot of that both with lay leaders and with ordained. From within the christian community. Take risks. We have to be willing to talk to people who are not always the kind of people we want to talk to. Im trying to put this rather tactfully. Im not talking about the jihadist extremists, but i am saying that it is no use saying well only talk to the nice people. Its not the nice people that are causing the problems. Theyre often the victims. We have to work our way towards an honest discussion that doesnt start with a sink ronnistic we already agree with each other. We say that to be nice which is what i used to say to my children when they were small and had about as much impact then for that matter. But we feed to work away from that towards a real integrity that says here are our differences. Here are our fundamental here are the fundamental issues that cause us to differ. We think we are right. You think youre right. That gives a different world view, a different approach to the human being, a different approach particularly to how you deal with people on the edge, people outside your faith community. We need much more integrity of dialogue about b. But to do that, you must form relationships with people whose views may be exceptionally cal ledgie i challenging and uncomfortable. We have to take some risks doing that and not be naive that were just dealing with nice people with whom we can all have nice conversations. I dont think that helps. I mean, i could go on for hours on this. Its a passion of mine. But the best work that ive seen or for that matter been involved in has been when we got to the point where were able to say we disagree with you profoundly on this. How do we transform this profound disagreement from violent to nonviolent . Are you having any of these discussions in england with Muslim Leaders . Yes. Yes. Constantly. Yes, sir. My name is tom getman. Im an ngo executive and professional board member. Your grace, thank you. We, as you know, have a daughter who is an anglican priest. And she said one of the things that she appreciates is your evangelical spirit. In this country, evangelical is a dirty word for many people. Misunderstood, misdefined. And those of us that are evangelical sometimes find ourselves struggling to explain what it really means. How do you define evangelical, and what would you say to instruct people in the media here who use it wrong . Wrongly . Thank you. Thats a really seriously difficult question. I wasnt prepared for that one. For what its worth, my definition of i would consider im not a great party person. I dont mean i love parties. I dont mean, you know, i love parties. I just dont join groups very easily. I consider yes. I consider myself evangelical. Not all evangelicals agree with that. I think it would be fair to say. I would define as evangelical as someone for whom the final authority in belief and practice is found in scripture properly interpreted. That covers the difficult bit. So thats where i come from. It has nothing to do with your politics. You can i know evangelicals on the left in england and on the right. I agree with some. I disagree with some. I agree with some of the things that some say on both sides and disagree with some of the things that some say on both sides. It is not about your attitude to guns. The Nuclear Deterrent or social rights. It is about where you find authority in your life, in your creeds and in your behavior. Its a rather shorthand definition, but if you dont mind, ill probably leave it there. Yes, sir. Good morning. Im wondering going after your previous answer how we can move interfaith dialogue into a social movement beyond the dialogue industry and the nice people that you referred to. I think we have to be real and say you cant do everything in public. Theres moments for symbolic gettogethers. What in england we call slightly ironic. And there are moments when you have to operate below the radar, meeting people quietly where in safe spaces. The most difficult thing i think we find and that we struggle with and the report of moo i diremy director of reconciliation is sitting down here who is the expert on this is how do we create safe space for people to get to the point that they say what they really think . Its unbelievably difficult. Everyone will be worried that it will be in the media or their friends will find out. Theyll be threatened. Ive had a religious leader from another faith tradition overseas ringing me not long ago at 11 15 at night saying ive just had my third death threat of the day. I just cant go on with this. We need to realize that people take huge risks doing that. And we need to take risks, but part of the risk is being willing to create safe space, not be seen to be doing what we are doing. Part of our of this the world in your hand problem is that unless youre seen to Say Something or do something, clearly you dont care. Which is, of course, rubbish. But for those who have on the council of for. Relations, i assume theres quite a few dip pats here, you will know the problem. You cant say everything youre doing. So it means back stairs, below the radar. The risk of being deeply misunderstood means you have to be politically slightly canny. Thats an english word. Yes, sir. Back there. Yes. Good morning. Bill akin from the buddhist community. Thanks very much for taking the time with us today. Im wondering if you could go a little bit further into youve been discussing the issues of dialogue and sometimes difficult dialogue. And i imagine some of your most challenging dialogue is within the communion within the a anglican communion. And we talked earlier about ideological colonialization. But im sure that that comes face to face with sometimes fundamental senses of Human Dignity and morality and ethics. And im wondering if you could just give us a little more light into your process and how youve been engaging this and dealing with issues which you may have to walk that line between not wanting to be an ideological colonial but having some moral speaking truth, i guess, in those difficult moments. Whether its the issue im not talking about gender issues regarding positions in the church, but im talking about fundamental treatment, whether its genital mutilation, care of girls, et cetera. Could you give us a little bit more insight into your struggles with that . The main struggle is getting very isolated. Youve got to meet people. After i met these people and these sex workers i was talking about a few moments ago, the next day one of them tweeted a most lovely picture saying that they had met me. It was just a lovely message. One of my family came in and found me in floods of tears in the kitchen because i was so moved that by this. You have to let your heart be broken. You cant be too professionalized about this in the wrong sense. Youve got to be highly professional. But youve got to let your heart be broken by encountering people where they are. And the danger of this role is you spend your life in a little bubble of everyone treating you grandly. And you dont get out and away from all the folderall and let your heart be broken. By the plight of the people you meet. And that will come in a number of ways. So i can still remember agonizing. I find this youve touched on a point which for me is a point of immense personal pain. As how one holds truth and compassion together in public discourse. And i spend my time asking myself, telling myself, ive got it wrong. But i remember a conversation a few years quite a few years back in sub Saharan Africa with some people on the issue of human sexuality. We differed very deeply on it. But as i listened to them, i sensed their anxiety, their sense of betrayal in what i was saying. And you have to let yourself be touched by that. You cant just reject it as an ignorant view. You have to let it hurt. So i think part of the dialogue that we need is a dialogue that involves great pain. We must let ourselves be heard. And i struggle with it because i, like all of us, i dont like being hurt. I dont like the pain. I will go a long way to avoid it. Emotional pain, particularly. Does that make any sense . Very much. Im afraid were going to have to close it down now. The archbishop is going to have to be leaving. But i do ask you for one final thought, sir. Weve been talking about a lot of issues here of Climate Change, migration, violence that are handled by secular institutions. Yeah. Do you see any challenge for any danger in the church becoming too secularized by its focus on these institutions . Because several other things you mentioned i think are very important. The importance of not soft pedaling your faith. Yes, i think there is. I think in a bid for favor for making people like us, we can end up wanting to say the right thing about everything. We are called as christians. I speak only for myself but as a christian, im called to be someone the scripture, the bible, the words of jesus teach me to believe that for someone to become a disciple of jesus christ is the best decision that they can ever make in their life. And thor