Transcripts For CSPAN3 1988 Presidential Candidates Second Debate 20161010

This debate from los angeles is about an hour and a half. Bernard shaw on behalf of the commission on president ial debates, i am pleased to welcome you to the second president ial debate. I am bernard shaw of cnn, cable news network. My colleagues on the panel are ann compton of abc news, Margaret Warner of newsweek magazine, and Andrea Mitchell of nbc news. The candidates are Vice President george bush, the republican nominee, and governor michael dukakis, the democratic nominee. [applause] bernard for the next 90 minutes we will be questioning the candidates following a format designed and agreed to by representatives of the two campaigns. However, there are no restrictions on the questions that my colleagues and i can ask this evening, and the candidates have no prior knowledge of our questions. By agreement between the candidates, the first question goes to governor dukakis. You have two minutes to respond. Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable Death Penalty for the killer . Gov. Dukakis no, i dont, bernard. And i think you know that ive opposed the Death Penalty during all of my life. I dont see any evidence that its a deterrent, and i think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime. Weve done so in my own state. And its one of the reasons why we have had the biggest drop in crime of any industrial state in america, why we have the lowest murder rate of any industrial state in america. But we have work to do in this nation. We have work to do to fight a real war, not a phony war, against drugs. And thats something i want to lead, something we havent had over the course of the past many years, even though the Vice President has been at least allegedly in charge of that war. We have much to do to step up that war, to double the number of Drug Enforcement agents, to fight both here and abroad, to work with our neighbors in this hemisphere. And i want to call a hemispheric summit just as soon after the 20th of january as possible to fight that war. But we also have to deal with drug education prevention here at home. And thats one of the things that i hope i can lead personally as the president of the United States. Weve had Great Success in my own state. And weve reached out to young people and their families and been able to help them by beginning drug education and prevention in the early elementary grades. So we can fight this war, and we can win this war. And we can do so in a way that marshals our forces, that provides real support for state and local Law Enforcement officers who have not been getting that support, and do it in a way which will bring down violence in this nation, will help our youngsters to stay away from drugs, will stop this avalanche of drugs thats pouring into the country, and will make it possible for our kids and our families to grow up in safe and secure and decent neighborhoods. Bernard mr. Vice president , your oneminute rebuttal. Vice president bush well, a lot of what this campaign is about, it seems to me bernie, goes to the question of values. And here i do have, on this particular question, a big difference with my opponent. You see, i do believe that some crimes are so heinous, so brutal, so outrageous, and id say particularly those that result in the death of a Police Officer, for those real brutal crimes, i do believe in the Death Penalty, and i think it is a deterrent, and i believe we need it. And im glad that the congress moved on this drug bill and have finally called for that related to these narcotics drug kingpins. And so we just have an honest difference of opinion. I support it and he doesnt. Bernard now to you, Vice President bush. I quote to you this from article iii of the 20th amendment to the constitution. Quote, if at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the president the president elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become president , meaning, if you are elected and die before inauguration day. Vice president bush bernie. [laughter] bernard automatically, dan quayle would become the 41st president of the United States. What have you to say about that possibility . Vice president bush id have confidence in him. And i made a good selection. And ive never seen such a pounding, an unfair pounding, on a young senator in my entire life. And ive never seen a president ial campaign where the president ial nominee runs against my Vice President ial nominee, never seen one before. [laughter] [applause] Vice President bush but you know, Lloyd Bentsen jumped on dan quayle, when dan quayle said, hes had roughly the same amount of experience. He had two terms in the congress. He had two terms in the senate, serving his second term. He founded, authored, the Job Training Partnership act. It says to american working men and women that are thrown out of work for no fault of their own that theyre going to have jobs. Were moving into a new competitive age, and we need that kind of thing. He, unlike my opponent, is an expert in national defense. Helped amend the inf treaty so we got a good, sound treaty, when these people over here were talking about a freeze. If wed listened to them, we would never have had a treaty. And so i have great confidence in him. And its turning around. You know, the American People are fair. They dont like it when theres an unfair pounding and kind of hooting about people. They want to judge it on the record itself. And so im proud of my choice. And you know, i dont think age is the only criterion. But ill tell you something, im proud that people who are 30 years old and 40 years old now have someone in their generation that is going to be Vice President of the United States of america. I made a good selection. The American People are seeing it, and im proud of it. Thats what id say. And he could do the job. Bernard governor dukakis, your oneminute rebuttal. Gov. Dukakis bernard, this was the first president ial decision that we as nominees were called upon to make. And thats why people are so concerned. Because it was an opportunity for us to demonstrate what we were looking for in a running mate. More than that, it was the First National security decision that we had to make. The Vice President talks about National Security. Three times since world war ii, the Vice President has had to suddenly become the president and commander in chief. I picked Lloyd Bentsen, because i thought he was the best qualified person for the job. [applause] gov. Dukakis mr. Bush picked dan quayle, and before he did it, he said, watch my choice for Vice President , it will tell all and it sure did. It sure did. [applause] bernard ann compton for the Vice President. Ann thank you, bernie. Mr. Vice president , yes, we read your lips, no new taxes. But despite that same pledge from president reagan, after income tax rates were cut, in each of the last five years some , federal taxes have gone up, on Social Security, cigarettes, liquor, even Long Distance telephone calls. Now thats money straight out of peoples wallets. Isnt the phrase no new taxes misleading the voters . Vice president bush no, because im pledged to that, and yes, some taxes have gone up. And the main point is, taxes have been cut, and yet income is up to the federal government by 25 in the last three years. And so what i want to do is keep this expansion going. I dont want to kill it off by a tax increase. More americans at work today than at any time in the history of the country, and a greater percentage of the work force. And the way you kill expansions is to raise taxes. And i dont want to do that, and i wont do that. And what i have proposed is something much better. And its going to take discipline of the executive branch, its going to take discipline of the Congressional Branch. And that is what i call a flexible freeze that allows growth about 4 or the rate of inflation but does not permit the Congress Just to add on spending. I hear this talk about a blank check. The American People are pretty smart. They know who writes out the checks. And they know who appropriates the money. It is the United States congress. And by two to one, congress is blamed for these deficits. And the answer is to discipline both the executive branch and the Congressional Branch by holding the line on taxes. So im pledged to do that. And those pessimists who say it cant be done, im sorry, i just have a fundamental disagreement with them. Bernard governor dukakis, your oneminute response. Gov. Dukakis ann, the Vice President made that pledge. Hes broken it three times in the past year already. So it isnt worth the paper its printed on. And what im concerned about is that if we continue with the policies that mr. Bush is talking about here this evening, the flexible freeze somebody described it the other day as a kind of economic slurpee he wants to spend billions on virtually every weapons system around. He says hes not going to raise taxes, though he has broken that pledge repeatedly. He says he wants to give the wealthiest 1 of the people in this country a fiveyear, 40 billion tax break, and were going to pay for it. And hes been proposing all kinds of programs for new spending costing billions. Now if we continue with these policies, this trillion and a half dollars worth of new debt thats already been added on the backs of the american taxpayer is going to increase even more, and if we continue with this for another four years, then im worried about the next generation, whether we can ever turn this situation around. No, we need a chief executive who is prepared to lead, who wont blame the congress, who will lead to bring down that deficit, who will make tough choices on spending. Bernard governor . Gov. Dukakis will go out and do the job that we expect of him and do it with the congress of the United States. [applause] bernard and to governor dukakis. Ann governor, let me follow up on that by asking you youve said it many times that you have balanced 10 budgets in a row in massachusetts. Are you promising the American People here tonight that within a fouryear president ial term, you will balance the federal budget . Gov. Dukakis no, im not sure i can promise that. I dont think either one of us can really. There is no way of anticipating what may happen. I will say this, that we will set as our goal a steady, gradual reduction of the deficit, which will require tough choices on spending. It will require a good strong rate of economic growth. It will require a plan that the president works out with the congress, doesnt blame them, works it out with them, which brings that deficit down. It will require us to go out and collect billions and billions of dollars in taxes owed that arent being paid in this country. And thats grossly unfair to the average american who is paying his taxes and paying them on time and doesnt have any alternative. Its taken out of his paycheck. Mr. Bush says we are going to put the irs on every taxpayer. Thats not what we are going to do. Im for the taxpayer bill of rights. But i think its unconscionable, ann, that we should be talking or thinking about imposing new taxes on average americans when there are billions out there, over 100 billion, in taxes owed that arent being paid. Now, i think if we Work Together on it, and if you have a president that will work with the congress and the American People, we can bring that deficit down steadily, 20, 25, 30 billion a year, build economic growth, build a good strong future for america, invest in those things which we must invest in economic development, good jobs, good schools for our kids, College Opportunity for young people, Decent Health care and affordable housing, and a clean and safe environment. We can do all of those things, and at the same time build a future in which we are standing on a good strong fiscal foundation. Senator bentsen said, as you recall at the debate with senator quayle, that if you give any of us 200 billion worth of hot checks a year, we can create an illusion of prosperity. But sooner or later, that credit card mentality isnt going to work. And i want to bring to the white house a sense of strength and fiscal responsibility which will build a good Strong Foundation under which this country, or above which country can move, grow, invest, and build the best america for its people and for our kids and our grandkids. [applause] bernard mr. Vice president , your response. Vice president bush the governor has to balance the budget in his state. He is required to by law. He has raised taxes several times. I wish he would join me, as a matter of fact, in appealing to the American People for the balanced Budget Amendment for the federal government and for the lineitem veto. [applause] id like to have that lineitem veto for the president , because i think that would be extraordinarily helpful. And i wont do one other thing that hes had to do. Took 29 million out of his state pension fund. Thats equivalent at the federal level of taking out of the Social Security trust fund. Im not going to do that. I wont do that. [applause] and so im still a little unclear as to whether hes for or against the tax increase. I have been for the taxpayer bill of rights all along. And this idea of unleashing a whole bunch an army, a conventional force army, of irs agents into everybodys kitchen. I mean, hes against most defense matters, and now he wants to get an army of jrs auditors going out there. [laughter] i am against that. I oppose that. [boos and applause] bernard im going to say this and im going to say it once to every person in this auditorium what these candidates are about is of utmost seriousness to the american voters. They should be heard and you should be quiet. If you are not quiet, i am going to implore the candidates to do something about quieting their own partisans. But we cannot get through this program with these outbursts. Margaret warner for governor dukakis. Margaret good evening, governor, mr. Vice president. Governor, you won the first debate on intellect, and yet you lost it on heart. [laughter] you will get your turn. Vice president bush just a minute. Gov. Dukakis i dont know if the Vice President agrees with that. Margaret the American Public admired your performance, but didnt seem to like you much. Now, Ronald Reagan has found his personal warmth to be a tremendous political asset. Do you think that a president has to be likable to be an effective leader . Gov. Dukakis margaret, may i go back and just say to the Vice President that i didnt raid the pension fund of massachusetts. You are dead wrong, george, we didnt do that. As a matter of fact, im the first governor in the history of my state to fund that pension system, and im very proud of that. [applause] no, we did not. I have been in politics for 25 years, margaret. Ive won a lot of elections, ive lost a few, as you know, and learned from those losses. I won the democratic nomination in 51 separate contests. I think im a reasonably likable guy. [laughter] im serious though i think im a little more lovable these days than i used to be back in my youth when i began in my state legislature. But im also a serious guy. I think the presidency of the United States is a very serious office, and i think we have to address these issues in a very serious way. So i hope and expect that i will be liked by the people of this country as president of the United States. I certainly hope i will be liked by them on the 8th of november. But i also think its important to be somebody who is willing to make those tough choices. Now, we have just heard two or three times from the Vice President hes not going to raise taxes. I repeat, within days after you made that pledge, you broke it; you said, well, maybe as a last resort well do it. And you supported legislation this year thats involved tax increases not once, but twice. So that pledge isnt realistic, and i think the Vice President knows it. I think the people of this country know it. The fact of the matter is that the next president of the United States is going to have to go to the white house seriously, he is going to have to work with the Congress Seriously he cant turn to the congress and blame them for the fact that we dont have a balanced budget and that we have billions and billions of dollars in red ink. And i am going to be a president who is serious, i hope and expect will be liked by the American People. But more than that, to do the kind of job that im elected to do, will do it with as much good humor as i can, but at the same time will do it in a way which will achieve the goals we want for ourselves and our people. And i think we know what they are a good strong future, a future in which there is opportunity for all of our citizens. Bernard one minute from the Vice President. Vice president bush i dont think its a question of whether people like you or not to make you an effective leader. I think its whether you share the broad dreams of the American People, whether you have confidence in the peoples ability to get things done or whether you think it all should be turned over, as many of the liberals do, to washington, d. C. You see, i think its a question of values, not likability or loveability, its a question in Foreign Affairs in experience, knowing world leaders, knowing how to build on a superb record of this administration in arms control, because youd know exactly how to begin. You have to learn from experience that making unilateral cuts in Defense System is not the way that you enhance peace. Youve got to understand that it is only the United States that can stand for freedom and democracy around the world and we cant turn it over to the United Nations or other multilateral organizations. It is, though, trying to understand the heartbeat of the country. And i know these campaigns get knocked a lot, but i think id be a better president now for having had to travel to these communities and understand the family values and the importance of neighborhood. [applause] Vice President bush please. Bernard Margaret Warner for the Vice President. Margaret id like to follow up on that mr. Vice president. The tenor of the campaign youve been running, in terms of both the issues and your rhetoric has surprised even some of your friends. Senator Mark Hatfield whos known your family a long time and who knew your father, the late senator prescott bush, said, and i quote, if his father were alive today, im sure his father would see it as a shocking transformation. Is senator hatfield right . Vice president bush what was he referring to . Margaret he was referring to your performance in the campaign. Vice president bush i think my dad would be pretty proud of me, because i think weve come a long way and i think, you know 3 months ago, i remember some of the great publications in this country had written me off. And what ive had to do is define, not just my position, but to define his and i hope ive done it fairly. And the reason ive had to do that is that he ran on the left in the democratic primary, ran firmly and ran with conviction and ran on his record. And then at that democratic convention, they made a determination and they said there, ideology doesnt matter, just competence. And in the process, the negatives began. It wasnt me that was there at that convention. Thank god i was up in the with jimmy baker camping out and i didnt have to hear all the personal attacks on me out of that democratic convention. It was wonderful not to have to listen to it. And im not the one that compared the president of the United States rotting from like a dead fish from the head down. I didnt do that. But i have defined the issues and i am not going to let governor dukakis go through this election without explaining some of these very liberal position. Hes the one a liberal, traditional liberal a progressive liberal democrat. Hes the one that brought up, to garner primary votes, the whole question of the aclu. And i have enormous difference with the aclu on their politic al agenda. Not on their defending some minority opinion on the right or the left. I support that. But what i dont like is this left wing political agenda and therefore i have to help define that. And if hes unwilling to do it, if he says ideology doesnt matter, i dont agree with him. [applause] bernard one minute from governor dukakis. Gov. Dukakis well, margaret, weve heard it again tonight and im not surprised, the labels. I guess the Vice President two called me a liberal two or three times, said i was coming from the left. In 1980, president reagan called you a liberal for voting for federal gun control. And this is something republicans have used for a long time. They tried it with Franklin Roosevelt and harry truman and john kennedy. Its not labels. Its our vision of america. And we have two fundamentally different visions of america. The Vice President is complacent, thinks we ought to stick with the status quo, doesnt think we ought to move ahead, thinking things are ok as they are. I dont. I think this is a great country, because weve always wanted to do better, to make our country better, to make our lives better. Weve always been a nation which was ambitious for america and we move forward. And thats the kind of america i want. Thats the kind of leadership i want to provide. But i dont think these labels mean a thing and i would hope that tonight in the course of the rest of this campaign, we can have good solid disagreements on issues. Theres nothing the matter with that. But lets stop labeling each other and lets get to the heart of the matter which is the future of this country. [applause] bernard Andrea Mitchell, for the Vice President. Andrea mr. Vice president , governor. Mr. Vice president , let me return for a moment to the issue of the budget, because so much has already been put off limits in your campaign that most people do not believe that the flexible freeze alone will solve the problem of the deficit. So, lets turn to defense for a moment. Pentagon officials tell us that there is not enough money in the budget to handle military readiness, preparedness, as well as new Weapons Systems that have been proposed, as well as those already in the pipeline. You were asked in the first debate what new Weapons Systems you would cut. You mentioned three that had already been canceled. Can you tonight share with us three new Weapons Systems that you would cut . Vice president bush if i knew of three new Weapons Systems that i thought were purely waste and werent protected by the congress, they wouldnt be in the budget. They would not be in the budget, but you want one now . Ill give you one, that hmet, that heavy truck, thats cost 850 million and the pentagon didnt request it and, yet, a member of congress, a very powerful one, put it in the budget. I think we can save money through this whole very sophisticated concept, andrea, that i know you do understand of competitive strategies. It is new and it is very very different than whats happened, but its not quite ready to be totally implemented. But its very important. I think we can say, through the Packard Commission report and im very proud that david packard, the originator of that report, is strongly supporting me. So, its not a question of saying our budget is full of a lot of waste. I dont believe that. I do think this. Were in the serious stages of negotiation with the soviet union on the strategic arms control talks. And were protecting a couple of options in terms of modernizing our strategic forces. My secretary of defense is going to have to make a very difficult decision in which system to go forward with. But we are protecting both of them. We are moving forward with negotiations and, you see, i just think it would be dumb negotiating policy with the soviets to cut out one or the other of the two options right now. The soviets are modernizing. They continue to modernize and we cant simply weve got enough Nuclear Weapons, lets freeze. We cant do that. We have to have modernization, especially if we achieve the 50 reduction in strategic weapons that our president is taking the leadership to attain. And, so, thats the way id reply to it and i believe we can have the strongest and best defense possible if we modernize, if we go forward with competitive strategies, and if we do follow through on the Packard Commission report. Bernard governor dukakis, one minute. Gov. Dukakis well, andrea, weve just had another example of why the Vice President s mathematics just dont add up. I think you know because youve covered these issues, that theres no way that we can build all of the weapons the Vice President says he wants to build within the Defense Budget. Everybody knows that including the people at the pentagon. Now, my defense secretary is going to have a lot to do with those decisions, but its going to be the president whos going to have to ultimately decide before that budget goes to the congress what Weapons Systems are going to go and what are going to stay. We are not going to spend the billions and trillions that mr. Bush wants to spend on star wars. Were not going to spend billions on mxs on railroad cars, which is a weapons system we dont need, cant afford and wont help our defense posture at all. Were not going to spend hundreds of millions on a space plane from washington to tokyo. Those are decisions that the chief executive has to make. Yes, were going to have a strong and credible and Effective Nuclear deterrent. Were going to go forward with the stealth and the d5 and the advance Cruise Missile and good conventional forces. But the next president of the United States will have to make some tough and difficult decisions. Im prepared to make them, the Vice President is not. Bernard governor, andrea has a question for you. Andrea governor, continuing on that subject, then, you say we have to do something about conventional forces. You have supported the submarine launch missile, the d5 you just referred to. Yet, from jerry ford to jimmy carter to Ronald Reagan, there has been a bipartisan consensus in favor of modernizing the land based missiles. Now, you have ruled out the mx and the midgetman. More recently, some of your aides have hinted at some flexibility you might show about some other new form of missile. Can you tell us tonight why you have rejected the wisdom of people as diverse as sam nunn, henry kissinger, al gore, people in both parties and what type of land based missile would you consider . Gov. Dukakis well, andrea, today we have 13,000 Strategic Nuclear warheads, on land, on air and in the sea. Thats an incredibly powerful nuclear deterrent. I dont rule out modernization, and there are discussions going on now in the congress, i know with the pentagon, about a less expensive modernized landbased leg of the triad. But there are limits to what we can spend. There are limits to this nations ability to finance these Weapons Systems. And one of the things that the Vice President either ignores or wont address is the fact that you cant divorce our military security from our Economic Security. How can we build a Strong America militarily thats teetertottering on a mountain of debt . And if we go forward with the kinds of policies that the Vice President is suggesting tonight and has in the past, that debt is going to grow bigger and bigger and bigger. So military security and Economic Security go hand in hand. And we will have a strong and effective and Credible Nuclear Deterrent. Were going to have conventional forces that are well maintained, well equipped, well trained, well supported. And we have Serious Problems with our conventional forces at the present time, and theyll get worse unless we have a president who is willing to make some of these decisions. And we also have important domestic priorities, in education and housing and health care, in economic development, in job training, in the environment. And all of these things are going to have to be addressed. Thats why i say again to all of you out there who have to deal with your Household Budgets and know how difficult it is that the next president has to do the same. I want the men and women of our armed forces to have the support they need to defend us; the support they need when they risk our lives to keep us free and to keep this country free. But we cannot continue to live on a credit card. We cannot continue to tell the American People that were going to build all of these systems, and at the same time, invest in important things here at home, and be serious about building a strong and good america. And thats the kind of america i want to build. Bernard one minute for the Vice President. [applause] vp bush i think the foremost [applause] vp bush can we start the clock over . I held off for the applause. Bernard you can proceed, sir. Vp bush i think the foremost responsibility of a president really gets down to the National Security of this country. The governor talks about limits, what we cant do, opposes these two modernization systems, talks now about well, well develop some new kind of a missile. It takes eight years, ten years, to do that. He talked about a Nuclear Freeze back at the time when i was in europe trying to convince European Public opinion that we ought to go forward with the deployment of the inf weapons. And thank god, the freeze people were not heard. They were wrong. And the result is, we deployed, and the soviets kept deploying, and then we negotiated from strength. And now we have the first arms control agreement in the nuclear age to ban weapons. You just dont make unilateral cuts in the naive hope that the soviets are going to behave themselves. World peace is important, and we have enhanced the peace. And im proud to have been a part of an administration that has done exactly that. Peace through strength works. Bernard ann compton for gov. Dukakis. Ann governor, today they may call them role models, but they used to be called heroes, the kind of public figure who could inspire a whole generation, someone who was larger than life. My question is not, who your heroes were. My question instead is, who are the heroes who are there in American Life today . Who are the ones who you would point out to Young Americans as figures who should inspire this country . Gov. Dukakis well, i think when i think of heroes, i think back, not presently, ann. But there are many people who i admire in this country today. Some of them are in public life in the senate, the congress. Some of my fellow governors who are real heroes to me. I think of those Young Athletes who represented us at the olympics were tremendously impressive. We were proud of them. We felt strongly about them, and they did so well by us. I can think of doctors and scientists, jonas salk who for example discovered a vaccine which cured one of the most dread diseases we ever had. And hes a hero. I think of Classroom Teachers, Classroom Teachers that i have had, Classroom Teachers that youngsters have today who are real heroes to our young people. Because they inspire them. They teach them. But more than that, they are role models. Members of the clergy who have done the same. Drug counselors out there in the street who are providing help to youngsters who come up to me and others who ask for help and want help, are doing the hard work, the heroic work, which it takes to provide that kind of leadership, that kind of counseling, that kind of support. I think of people in the Law Enforcement community who are taking their lives in their hands everyday, when they go up to one of those doors and kick it down and try to stop this flow of drugs into our communities and into our kids. So there are many, many heroes in this country today. These are people that give of themselves everyday and every week and every month. In many cases, they are people in the community who are examples and are role models. I would hope that one of the things i could do as president is to recognize them, to give them the kind of recognition that they need and deserve so that more and more young people can themselves become the heroes of tomorrow, can go into Public Service, can go into teaching, can go into drug counseling, can go into Law Enforcement, and be heroes themselves to generations yet to come. Bernard one minute for Vice President bush. [applause] vp bush i think of a teacher right here, largely hispanic school, jaime escalante, teaching calculus to young kids, 80 percent of them going on to college. I think of a young man now in this country named villadaris, who was released from a cuban jail. Came out and told the truth in this brilliant book, against all hope, about what is actually happening in cuba. I think of those people that took us back into space again, rick houk and that crew, as people that are worthy of this. I agree with the governor on athletics, and theres nothing corny about having sports heroes, young people that are clean and honorable and out there setting the pace. I think of dr. Fauci. Probably never heard of him. You did, ann heard of him. Hes a very fine research, top doctor, at the National Institute of health, working hard doing something about research on this disease of aids, but look, i also think we ought to give a little credit to the president of the United States. He is the one who has gotten us that first arms control agreement. Bernard mr. Vice president. Vp bush and the cynics abounded. And he is leaving office with a popularity at an alltime high, because American People bernard mr. Vice president , your time has expired. Vp bush say, he is our hero. [applause] bernard ann has a question for you, mr. Vice president. Ann lets change the pace a little bit, mr. Vice president. In this campaign, some hard and very bitter things have been spoken by each side about each side. If youd consider for a moment gov. Dukakis and his years of Public Service, is there anything nice you can say about him, anything you find admirable . Vp bush youre stealing my close. I had something very nice to say in there. Ann somebody leak my question to you . Vp bush no, let me tell you something about that. Barbara and i were sitting there before that democratic convention, and we saw the governor and his son on television the night before and his family, and his mother who was there. And im saying to barbara, you know, weve always kept family as a bit of an oasis for us. You all know me, and weve held it back a little. But we used that as a role model, the way he took understandable pride in his heritage, what his family means to him. And weve got a strong family. And we watched that. And we said, hey, weve got to unleash the bush kids. [applause] vp bush and so you saw ten grandchildren there jumping all over their grandfather at the convention. You see our five kids, all over this country, and their spouses. And so i would say that the concept of the dukakis family has my great respect. And i would say, i dont know whether thats kind or not, its just an objective statement. I think the man anybody that gets into this political arena and has to face you guys everyday deserves a word of praise, because its gotten a little ugly out there. Its gotten a little nasty. Its not much fun sometimes, and i would cite again dan quayle. Ive been in politics a long time, and i dont remember that kind of piling on, that kind of ugly rumor that never was true, printed. Now, come on. So, some of it is unfair, but hes in the arena. Teddy roosevelt used to talk about the arena, you know, daring to fail greatly or succeed, no matter. Hes in there. So i salute these things. I salute those who participate in the political process. Sam raybum had a great expression on this. He said, here were all these intellectuals out there griping and complaining and saying it was negative coverage. Rayburn says, yeah, and that guy never ran for sheriff either. Michael dukakis has run for sheriff, and so has george bush. Bernard governor, a oneminute response. [applause] gov. Dukakis i didnt hear the word liberal or left one time. [laughter] gov. Dukakis i thank you for that. Vp bush thats not bad. Thats true. Gov. Dukakis and doesnt that prove the point, george, which is that values like family and education and community, decent homes for young people that family on long island i visited on monday where lou and betty tolamo bought a house for some 19,000 back in 1962, have had seven children, theyre all making good livings. They cant live in the community which they grew up in. Those are basic american values. I believe in them. I think you believe in them. Theyre not left or right. Theyre decent american values. I guess the one thing that concerns me about this, ann, is this attempt to label things which all of us believe in. We may have different approaches. We may think that you deal with them in different ways. But theyre basically american, i believe in them. George bush believes in them. I think the vast majority of americans believe in them. And i hope, governor, the tone weve just heard might just be the tone we have for the rest of the campaign. I think the American People would appreciate that. [applause] bernard Margaret Warner for the Vice President. Margaret Vice President bush, abortion remains with us as a very troubling issue, and id like to explore that for a minute with you. You have said that you regard abortion as murder, yet you would make exceptions in the case of rape and incest. My question is, why should a woman who discovers through amniocentesis, that her baby will be born with taysachs disease, for instance, that the baby will live at most two years, and those two years in incredible pain, be forced to carry the fetus to term, and yet a woman who becomes pregnant through incest would be allowed to abort her fetus . Vp bush because you left out one other exception, the health of the mother. Let me answer your question, and i hope it doesnt get too personal or maudlin. Barb and i lost a child, you know that we lost a daughter, robin. I was over running records in west texas, and i got a call from her, come home, went to the doctor; the doctor said, beautiful child, your child has a few weeks to live. I said, what can we do about it . He said, no, she has leukemia, acute leukemia, a few weeks to live. We took the child to new york. Thanks to the miraculous sacrifice of doctors and nurses, the child stayed alive for six months and then died. If that child were here today, and i was told the same thing, my granddaughter, noel for example, that child could stay alive for ten or fifteen years, or maybe for the rest of her life, and so, i dont think that you make an exception based on medical knowledge at the time. I think human life is very, very precious, and, look, this hasnt been an easy decision for me to meet. I know others disagree with it, but when i was in that Little Church across the river from washington and saw our grandchild christened in our faith, i was very pleased indeed that the mother had not aborted that child, and put the child up for adoption, and so, i just feel this is where im coming from, and it is personal. I dont assail him on that issue, or others on that issue. But thats the way i, george bush, feel about it. [applause] bernard one minute for governor dukakis. Gov. Dukakis margaret, kitty and i had very much the same kind of experience that the has, we lost a baby, lived about twenty minutes after it was born. But isnt the real question that we have to answer not how many exceptions we make, because the Vice President himself is prepared to make exceptions. Its who makes the decision, who makes this very difficult, very wrenching decision . [applause] and i think it has to be the woman, in the exercise of her own conscience and religious beliefs, that makes that decision. Who are we to say, well, under certain circumstances, its all right, but under other circumstances it isnt . Thats a decision that only a woman can make, after consulting her conscience and consulting her religious principles. And i would hope that we would give to women in this country the right to make that decision, and to make it in the exercise of their conscience and religious beliefs. [applause] bernard governor, margaret has a question for you. Margaret governor, id like to return to the topic of the Defense Budget for a minute. You have said in this campaign that you would maintain a stable Defense Budget, yet you are on the board, on the Advisory Board gov. Dukakis and, incidentally, may i say that thats the decision of the congress, and the president has concurred. Margaret yet you are on the board of a group called jobs with peace, in boston, that advocates a 25 cut in the Defense Budget and the transfer of that money to the domestic economy. My question is, do you share that goal perhaps as a longrange goal, and, if not, are you aware of or why do you permit this group to continue to use your name on its letterhead for fundraising . Gov. Dukakis i think i was on the advisory committee, margaret. No, i dont happen to share that goal. Its an example of how oftentimes we may be associated with organizations all of whose particular positions we dont support, even though we support in general the hope that over time, particularly if we can get those reductions in strategic weapons, if we can get a comprehensive test ban treaty, if we can negotiate with the soviet union and bring down the level of conventional forces in europe with deeper cuts in the soviet side, yes, at some point , it may be possible to reduce defense outlays and use those for important things here at home, like jobs and job training and College Opportunity and health and housing and the environment and the things that all of us care about. But i do think this, that the next president , even within a relatively stable budget, and thats what we are going to have for the foreseeable future, will have to make those tough choices that i was talking about and that mr. Bush doesnt seem to want to make. And that really is going to be a challenge for the next president of the United States. I dont think theres any question about it, but i also see a tremendous opportunity now to negotiate with the soviet union to build on the progress that weve made with the inf treaty, which i strongly supported and most democrats did to get those reductions in , strategic weapons, to get a test ban treaty, and to really make progress on the reduction of conventional forces in europe. And if we can do that and do it in a way that gets deeper cuts on the soviet side, which is where they ought to come from, then i think we have an opportunity over the long haul to begin to move some of our resources from the military to important domestic priorities that can provide College Opportunity for that young woman whose mother wrote me from texas just the other day, from longview, texas. Two teachers, a mother and a father who have a child thats a freshman in college, an Electrical Engineering major, a very bright student, and they cant afford to keep that child in college. So i hope that we can begin to move those resources. Its not going to happen overnight. It certainly will have to happen on a stepbystep basis as we make progress in arms negotiation and arms control and arms reduction. But it certainly ought to be the longterm goal of all americans and i think it is. Bernard one minute for the Vice President. Vp bush the Defense Budget today takes far less percentage of the Gross National product than it did in president kennedys time, for example , moved tremendously. And you see, i think were facing a real opportunity for world peace. This is a big question, and its a question as to whether the United States will continue to lead for peace. See, i dont believe any other country can pick up the mantel. I served at the un. I dont think we can turn over these kinds of decisions of the collective defense to the United Nations or anything else. So, what im saying is, we are going to have to make choices. I said i would have the secretary of defense sit down, but while the president is negotiating with the soviet union, i simply do not want to make these unilateral cuts, and i think those that advocated the freeze missed the point that there was a better way and that better way has resulted in a principle, asymmetrical cuts. The soviets take out more than we do and the principle of intrusive verification. And those two principles can now be applied to conventional forces, to strategic forces, provided bernard mr. Vice president. We. Dukakis vp bush dont give away our hand before we sit down at the head table. [applause] bernard Andrea Mitchell for governor dukakis. Andrea governor, youve said tonight that you set as a goal the steady reduction of the deficit. And youve talked about making tough choices, so perhaps i can get you to make one of those tough choices. Gov. Dukakis as a matter of reality, fm going to have to because we have had not one but two detailed studies which indicate that there are billions and billions of dollars to be collected that are not being paid these are not taxes owed by average americans. We dont have an alternative. Well lose it when its taken out of our paycheck before we even get it. But its the Internal Revenue service which estimates now that we arent collecting 100 billion or more in taxes owed in this country. And that is just absolutely unfair to the vast majority of americans who pay their taxes and pay them on time. The dorgan task force, which included two Internal Revenue commissioners, one a republican, one a democrat. It was a bipartisan commission, a study by two respected economists, which indicated that we could collect some 40, 45, 50 billion of those funds. The point is youve got to have a president whos prepared to do this and to begin right away and, preferably, a president who was a governor of a state thats had very, very successful experience at doing this. In my own state, we did it. In other states, weve done it. Republican governors as well as democratic governors. And weve had Great Success at revenue enforcement. Now, the Vice President will probably tell you that its going to take an army of irs collectors again. Well, his campaign manager, who used to be the secretary of the treasury, was taking great credit about a year ago and asking and receiving from the congress substantial additional funds to hire Internal Revenue agents to go out and collect these funds, and im happy to join jim baker in saying that we agree on this. But, the fact of the matter is that this is something that we must begin its going to take at least the first year of the new administration. But, the dorgan task force, the Bipartisan Task force estimated that we could collect about 35 billion in the fifth year, 105 billion over five years, the other study even more than that. That is where you begin. Bernard one minute response, mr. Vice president. Vp bush well, andrea, you didnt predicate that lack of economists support for what i call a flexible freeze, because some good very good economists do support that concept. And i think where i differ with the governor of massachusetts, is i am optimistic. They jumped on me yesterday for being a little optimistic about the United States. I am optimistic and i believe we can keep this longest expansion going. I was not out there when that stock market dropped, wringing my hands and saying this was the end of the world, as some political leaders were, because it isnt the end of the world. And what we have to do is restrain the growth of spending. And we are doing a better job of it. The congress is doing a better job of it, and the dynamics work, but they dont work if you go raise taxes and then the Congress Spends it, continues to spend that. The american working man and woman are not taxed too little. The federal government continues to spend too much. [applause] bernard mr. Vice president , andrea has a question for you. Andrea mr. Vice president , you have flatly ruled out any change in Social Security benefits, even for the wealthy. Now, can you stand here tonight and look at a whole generation of 18 to 34 year olds in the eye , the very people who are going to have to be financing that retirement, and tell them that they should be financing the retirement of people like yourself, like governor dukakis, or for that matter, people such as ourselves here on this panel . Vp bush more so you than me. Andrea we could argue about that. Vp bush no, but you got to go back to what Social Security was when it was created. It wasnt created as a welfare program. It wasnt created that is it was created as a whole retirement or supplement to retirement program. It wasnt created as a welfare program. So, heres whats happened. We came into office and the Social Security trust fund was in great jeopardy, and the president took the leadership working with the democrats and the republicans in congress, some tough calls were made, and the Social Security trust fund was put back into sound, solvent condition. So, i dont want to fool around with it, and there are several theres a good political reason because its just about this time of year that the democrats start saying the republicans are going to take away your Social Security. It always works that way. Ive seen it. In precinct politics in texas, and ive seen it at the national level. We have made the Social Security trust fund sound, and it is going to be operating at surpluses and i dont want the liberal Democratic Congress to spend out of that Social Security trust fund or go and take the money out for some other purpose. I dont want that, and i will not go in there and suggest changes in Social Security. I learned that the hard way, and the governor and i both supported slipping the colas for one year. He supported it at the National Governors conference, and i supported it in breaking a tie in a major compromise package, and we got assailed by the democrats in the election over that, and i am going to keep that Social Security trust fund sound and keep our commitment to the elderly and maybe down the line, maybe when you get two decades or one into the next century, youre going to have to take another look at it, but not now. We do not have to do it. Keep the trust with the older men and women of this country. Bernard governor, you have one minute, sir. [applause] gov. Dukakis andrea, i dont know which george bush im listening to. George bush, a few years ago, said that Social Security was basically a welfare system. Vp bush oh, come on. Gov. Dukakis and in 1985, he flew back from the west coast to cut that cola. I voted against that at the National Governors association. We won a majority, we didnt win the twothirds that was necessary nor to pass that resolution, george. But everybody knew what we were doing, and ive opposed that. The reason that we raise concerns, not just in election years, but every year, because republicans, once theyre elected go in there and start cutting. You did it in 1985. The administration tried to do it repeatedly, repeatedly in 1981 and 1982. Im sure youll try to do it again, because theres no way you can finance what you want to spend. Theres no way you can pay for that fiveyear 40 billion tax cut for the rich and still buy all those Weapons Systems you want to buy unless you raid the Social Security trust fund. [applause] bernard ann compton for the Vice President. Ann mr. Vice president , there are three justices on the Supreme Court who are in their 80s and its very likely that the next president will get a chance to put a lasting mark on the Supreme Court. For the record, would your nominees to the Supreme Court have to pass something that has been called a kind of conservative ideological litmus test and would you give us an idea of perhaps who two or three people on your short list are for the court . Vp bush one i dont have a list yet. I feel pretty confident tonight, but not that confident. [laughter] vp bush secondly, i dont have any litmus test, but what i would do is appoint people to the federal bench that will not legislate from the bench, who will interpret the constitution. I do not want to see us go to again, and i am using this word advisedly a liberal majority that is going to legislate from the bench. They dont like the use of the word, but may i remind his strong supporters that only last year in the primary, to capture that democratic nomination, he said, i am a progressive liberal democrat. I wont support judges like that. There is no litmus test on any issue, but i will go out there and find men and women to interpret. And i dont have a list, but i think the appointments that the president has made to the bench have been outstanding, outstanding appointments. Ann including bork . Vp bush yeah. I supported him. [applause] gov. Dukakis if the Vice President of the United States thinks that robert bork was an outstanding appointment [applause] [cheering] gov. Dukakis that is a very good reason for voting for mike dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen on the 8th of november. And i think the Vice President supported the bork nomination. You know, mr. Bush has never appointed a judge. Ive appointed over 130, so i have a record. [laughter] gov. Dukakis and im very proud of it. I dont ask people whether theyre republicans or democrats. Ive appointed prosecutors, ive appointed defenders. I dont appoint people i think are liberal or people who think who i think are conservative. I appoint people of independence and integrity and intelligence, people who will be a credit to the bench, and those are the standards that i will use in nominating people to the Supreme Court of the United States. These appointments are for life. These appointments are for life. And when the Vice President talks about liberals on the bench, i wonder who hes talking about . Is he talking about a former governor of the state of california, who is a former prosecutor, a republican named earl warren, because i think chief Justice Earl Warren was an outstanding chief justice, and i think most americans do too. Bernard ann compton has a question for you, governor dukakis. Andrea ann governor, millions of americans are entitled to some of the protections and benefits that the federal government provides, including Social Security, pensions, medicare for the elderly, medicaid for the poor. But in fact, there are so many millions of americans who are eligible, the government just cant continue to pay for all of those programs as theyre currently constituted. A Blue Ribbon Panel shortly after the election is likely to recommend that you go where the money is when you make budget cuts, and that means entitlements. Before the election, would you commit yourself to any of those hard choices, such as which one of those entitlements have to be redrawn . Gov. Dukakis andrea, why do people who want balanced budgets or to bring the deficit down always go to those programs which tend to benefit people of very modest means . Now, twothirds of the people in this country who receive Social Security checks live entirely on that cap. That check. They have no other income. And yet mr. Bush tried to cut their cost of living increase in 1985. Medicare is not getting less expensive. Medical care for the elderly is getting more expensive, with greater deductibles, with fewer benefits, the kinds of things weve had under this administration that have cut and chopped and reduced the kind of benefits that one gets under medicare. Yes, we now have Catastrophic Health insurance, but its going to cost, and thats going to be an additional burden on elderly citizens. It had bipartisan support; it should have had bipartisan support. But i suggest that we understand that those are going to be additional costs on Senior Citizens across this country. So im not going to begin, and im not going to go to entitlements as a means for cutting that deficit when were spending billions on Something Like star wars, when were spending billions on other weapon systems which apparently the Vice President wants to keep in his back pocket or some place, but which, if we continue to spend billions on them, will force us to cut Social Security, to cut medicare, to cut these basic entitlements to people of very, very modest means. Now, there are some things we can do to help people who currently do get entitlements to get off public assistance. I talked in our first debate about the possibilities of helping millions and millions of welfare families to get off of welfare, and im proud to say that we finally have a welfare reform bill, and the ruby samsons and dan lawsons, hundreds of thousands of welfare mothers in this country and in my state and across the country who today are working and earning are examples of what can happen when you provide training to those welfare mothers, some daycare for their children so that those mothers can go into a Training Program and get a decent job. Bernard governor. Gov. Dukakis thats the way you bring a deficit down and help to improve the quality of life for people at the same time. Bernard one minute for the Vice President. [applause] vp bush i think ive addressed it, but let me simply say for the record, i did not vote to cut colas, and i voted the same way that he did three months before in a National Governors conference. And he said at that time, in a quote, and this is a paraphrase, a freeze, thats easy. So i dont believe that we need to do what youve suggested here, and ive said that im going to keep this Social Security entitlement, to keep that trust fund sound, but i do think there are flexible ways to solve some of the pressing problems, particularly that affect our children, and i have made some good sound proposals. But again, we have a big difference on child care, for example. You see, i want the families to have the choice. I dont want to see the federal government licensing grandmothers. I dont want to see the federal government saying to communities, well, you cant do this any more. Were going to tell you how to do it all. I want flexibility, and i do you know, these people laugh about the thousand points of light. You ought to go out and see around this country whats happening in the volunteer section, americans helping america, and i want to keep it alive in child care and in other entitlements. Bernard Margaret Warner for gov. Dukakis. Margaret governor, im going to pass on the question i originally planned to ask you, to follow up on your rebuttal to a question andrea asked, and that involves Social Security. Now it is true, as you said, that originally you sought an exemption for Social Security colas in this National Governors association vote. But when you lost that vote, you then endorsed the overall freeze proposal. And whats more, you had great criticism of your fellow governors who wouldnt go along as political cowards. Gov. Dukakis that is absolutely not true. Margaret you said it takes guts and it takes will. Gov. Dukakis that is absolutely not true. It had nothing to do with the debate on Social Security. It had to do with the discussion we had had the previous day on the overall question of reducing the budget. Margaret my question is arent you demagoguing the Social Security issue . [applause] gov. Dukakis no, and i have to correct the record. That simply isnt true. Now, were not a parliamentary body, the National Governors association. We vote on resolutions. If you dont get a twothirds, then your resolution doesnt pass, but everybody knew that those of us who voted against the freezing of colas did so, we did so emphatically. And i never made that statement; never would. The point is that as we look at this nations future, and we have two very different visions of this future. I want to move ahead. The Vice President talks about a thousand points of light. Im interested in 240 million points of light. Im interested in 240 million citizens in this country who [applause] gov. Dukakis share in the american dream, all of them in every part of this country. But as we look at the decisions that the next president of the United States is going to have to make, i just dont believe the place you go first is those programs, those socalled entitlements, which provide a basic floor of income and a modest amount of medical care for the elderly, the disabled, for people who cant make their way on their own, and in many cases, have given a great deal to this country. The Vice President did call Social Security a few years ago basically or largely a welfare program. It isnt. Its a contract between generations. Its something that we pay into now so that we will have a secure retirement, and our parents and grandparents will have a secure retirement. Its a very sacred contract, and i believe in it. So thats not where we ought to go. There are plenty of places to cut. Theres lots we can do in the pentagon where dishonest contractors have been lining their pockets at the expense of the american taxpayer. [applause] gov. Dukakis there are, we certainly ought to be able to give our farm families a decent income with spending 20to 25 billion a year on farm subsidies, and im sure we can do that. Thats where we ought to go, and those are the programs we ought to review first. Bernard one minute for the Vice President. Vp bush well, let me take him up on this question of farm subsidies. We have a fundamental difference, approach on agriculture. He favors this supply maintenance or production controls. He said that. Hes been out in the state saying that, in midwestern states. I dont. I think the farm bill that he criticizes was good legislation, outstanding legislation, and i believe the answer to the agricultural economy is not to get the government further involved, but to do what im suggesting. In the first place, never go back to that democratic grain embargo, that liberal democrat grain embargo that knocked the markets right out from under us and made mr. Gorbachev say to me when he was here, how do i know youre reliable suppliers . We never should go back to that. And we ought to expand our markets abroad. We ought to have rural enterprise zones. We ought to move forward swiftly on my ideas of ethanol, which would use more corn, and therefore, create a bigger market for our agricultural products, but lets not go back and keep assailing a farm bill that passed with overwhelming democrat and republican support. Bernard mr. Vice president. Vp bush the farm payments are going down because the agricultural economy is coming back. Bernard Margaret Warner has a question for you, mr. Vice president. Margaret mr. Vice president , id like to cover a subject that wasnt covered in the first debate. You have said in this campaign, i am an environmentalist, and described yourself as having zero tolerance for polluters, and yet your record does seem to suggest otherwise. When you were head of the president s task force on regulatory relief, you did urge epa to relax regulations involving the elimination of lead from gasoline. I believe you urged suspension of rules requiring industries to treat toxic waste before discharging them in sewers, and your group also urged osha to weaken the regulations requiring that workers be informed of dangerous chemicals at the work site. Finally, i believe you did support the president s veto of the clean water act. My question is, arent you how do you square your Campaign Rhetoric with this record . Vp bush 90 reductions in lead since i chaired that Regulatory Task force, 90 . Its almost you remember that expression, get the lead out . Its almost out. Almost gone. Clean water . Im for clean water. But what im not for what im not for is measuring it the way that the Democratic Congress does. We sent up a good bill on clean water, a sound bill on clean water, but the only way you can express your love for clean water is to double the appropriations for clean water, and then rant against the deficit. I am for clean water. Ive been an outdoorsman and a sportsman all my life. Ive been to these national parks. I led for the earl wallop bill or formerly dingelljohnson. I headed the task force when i was a member of the congress way back in the late 1960s on these kinds of things, on the republican side. I led for that. And so i refuse to measure ones commitment as to whether youre going to double the spending. That is the same old argument thats gotten us into trouble on the deficit side. So ill just keep saying, i am one. Im not going to go down there and try to dump the sludge from massachusetts off the beaches off of new jersey. Im not going to do that. [booing] that boo was excessively loud. Can you add five seconds, bernie, out of fairness . Come on, give me five. I mean, this guy, this is too much. [laughter] vp bush but im not going to do that. Im an environmentalist. I believe in our parks. I believe in the president s commission on outdoors. And ill do a good job, because i am committed. Bernard gov. Dukakis, you have one minute to respond. [applause] gov. Dukakis margaret, im not sure i can get all of this in in one minute. George, we have supply management today under the 1985 bill. Its called setasides. Secondly, if you were so opposed to the grain embargo, why did you ask the godfather of the grain embargo to be one of your top Foreign Policy advisers . Im against the grain embargo; it was a mistake. Im also against the pipeline embargo, which you folks attempted to impose. That was a mistake as well, and it cost thousands of jobs for American Workers in the midwest and all over the United States of america. Margaret, once again, i dont know which george bush im talking about here or looking at. The george bush who was the charter member of the environmental wrecking crew that went to washington in the early 1980s and did a job on the epa, or the one weve been seeing and listening to the past two or three months, but let me say this, because he spent millions and millions of dollars of advertising on the subject of Boston Harbor. George, Boston Harbor was polluted for 100 years. Im the first governor to clean it up. No thanks to you. [applause] gov. Dukakis no thanks to you. Weve been cleaning it up for four years. We passed landmark legislation in 1984. No thanks to you. You did everything you could to kill the clean water act bernard governor. Gov. Dukakis and those grants which make it possible for states and local communities to clean up rivers and harbors and streams. [applause] mitchell has a question for you, mr. Vice president. Mitchell mr. Vice president , jimmy carter has called this the Worst Campaign ever. Richard nixon has called it trivial, superficial, and inane. Whoever started down this road first, of negative campaigning, the American People, from all reports coming to us, are completely fed up. Now, do you have any solutions to suggest . Is there time left to fix it . There are 26 days left. For instance, would you agree to another debate, before its all over [applause] so that the American People would have another chance before election day to compare you two . Vp bush no, i will not agree to another debate. The American People are up to here with debates. They had thirty of them; we had seven of them. Now, weve got three of them. I am going to carry this Election Debate all across this country in the last whatever remains of the last three and a half weeks, or whatever we have , and the answer is no; i am not going to have any more debates, we dont need any more debates. Ive spelled out my position. In terms of negative campaigning, you know, i dont want to sound like a kid in the schoolyard he started it. But take a look at the democratic convention, take a look at it. Do you remember the senator from boston chanting out there and the ridicule factor from that lady from texas that was on there . I mean, come on, this was just outrageous, but ill try harder to keep it on a high plane. If you could accept a little criticism, i went all across Central Illinois and spoke about agricultural issues, about seven stops. We had some fun, Crystal Gayle and loretta lynn with us, and they got up and sang, went to little towns and i talked agriculture. And not one thing did i see, with respect, on your network about my views on agriculture, and not one did i read in any newspaper. Why . Because you are so interested in a poll that might have been coming out, or because somebody had said something nasty about somebody else, and so i dont know what the answer is. Somebody hit me and said Barry Goldwater said you ought to talk on issues more. How can Barry Goldwater sitting in arizona know whether im talking on the issues or not when we put out position paper after position paper, he puts out position paper after position paper, and we see this much about it, because everyone else is fascinated with polls and whos up or down today and whos going to be up or down tomorrow . So i think we can all share, with respect, in the fact that maybe the message is not getting out, but its not getting out because there are too few debates. There will be no more debates. [applause] bernard governor dukakis, you have one minute to respond, sir. Gov. Dukakis i can understand, after the Vice President ial debate, why mr. Bush would want no more debates. [applause] [booing] gov. Dukakis thats my five seconds. Andrea, i think we both have a responsibility to try to address the issues. Yes, we have fundamental differences. I think a great many of them have come out today. And i think if we get rid of the labels, and im not keeping count, but i think mr. Bush has used the label liberal at least ten times if i had a dollar, george, for every time you used that label, id qualify for one of those tax breaks for the rich that you want to give away. [laughter] [applause] gov. Dukakis isnt that the point . Most americans believe in basic values. We have differences about how to achieve them. I want to move forward, i want this nation to move forward. I am concerned about the fact that 10 of our manufacturing and 20 of our banking and nearly half of the real estate in the city of los angeles are in the hands of foreign investors. I am concerned about what that does to our future. Im concerned about the fact that so many of our securities are in the hands of foreign banks because of these massive deficits, but those are the issues on which we ought to be debating, and if we can just put away the flag factories and the balloons and those kinds of thing and get on to a real discussion of these issues, i think we will have a good success. Bernard Andrea Mitchell has a question for you, governor dukakis. Andrea we are talking about issues, so lets return to something you said earlier about the modernization of landbased missiles. You said that you didnt rule it out that there are limits to what we can spend, and then you went on to talk about a much more expensive part of our defense strategy, namely, conventional forces. Do you somehow see conventional forces as a substitute for our strategic forces, and in not talking about the landbased missiles and not committing to modernizing, do you somehow believe that we can have a survivable Nuclear Force based on the air and sea legs of our triad . Gov. Dukakis i think we ought to be looking at modernization, i think we ought to be exploring less expensive ways to get it on land, and we ought to make sure that we have an effective and strong and Credible Nuclear Deterrent, but we also need wellequipped and welltrained and wellsupported conventional forces, and every defense expert i know, including people in the pentagon itself, will tell you that given the level of defense spending and the level of defense appropriations, which the congress has now approved and the president has signed, theres no way that you can do all of these things and do them well. Thats why tough choices will be required, choices i am prepared to make, mr. Bush is not prepared to make. But, andrea, i think we can go far beyond this as well, because we have opportunities now stepbystep to bring down the level of strategic weapons, get a test ban treaty, negotiate those conventional force reductions. I would challenge mr. Gorbachev to join with us in limiting in eliminating regional conflict in the middle east, in central america. Lets get him working on syria, their client state, and see if we cant get them to join israel and other arab nations, if at all possible, and arab leaders, in finally bringing peace to that troubled region. And i think thats one reason why we need fresh leadership in the white house that can make progress now in bringing peace to the middle east. Lets go to work and end this fiasco in central america, a failed policy which has actually increased cuban and soviet influence. The Democratic Leaders of central and latin america want to work with us. Ive met with them, i know them, ive spent time in south america, speak the language, so does senator bentsen. We want to work with them and build a new relationship, and they with us, but not a one of those key Democratic Leaders support our policy in central america. And weve got to work with them if we are going to create an environment for human rights and democracy for the people of this hemisphere, and go to work on our single most important problem, and that is the avalanche of drugs that is pouring into our country and virtually destroying those countries. Those are the kinds of priorities for National Security and for Foreign Policy that i want to pursue, mr. Bush and i have major differences on these issues, and i hope very much to be president and pursue them. Bernard mr. Vice president , you have one minute. Vp bush in terms of regional tensions, we have now gotten the attention of the soviet union, and the reason weve gotten it is because they see us now as unwilling to make the very kinds of unilateral cuts that have been called for and to go for the discredited freeze. My opponent had trouble, criticized us, on our policy in angola. It now looks, because of steady negotiation, that we may have an agreement that will remove the cubans from angola. We see the russians coming out of afghanistan. That wouldnt have stopped if we hadnt been willing, wouldnt have even started, the soviets coming out, if we hadnt even been willing to support the Freedom Fighters there. And the policy in central america, regrettably, has failed because the congress has been unwilling to support those who have been fighting for freedom. Those sandinistas came in and betrayed the trust of the revolution. They said it was about democracy, and they have done nothing other than solidify their marxist domination over that country. Bernard ann compton for governor dukakis. Ann governor, Nuclear Weapons need Nuclear Material replenished on a regular basis, and just this week, yet another Nuclear Manufacturing plant was closed because of safety concerns. Some in the pentagon fear that too much priority has been put on new weapons programs, not enough on current programs, and worry that the resulting shortage would be amounting to nothing less than unilateral nuclear disarmament. Is that a priority that you feel has been ignored by this administration, or are the pentagon officials making too much of it . Gov. Dukakis well, its a great concern of mine and i think of all americans, and perhaps the Vice President can tell us whats been going on. This is another example of misplaced priorities. An administration which wants to spend billions on Weapons Systems that we dont need and cant afford, and now confronts us with a very serious problem, and plants that are supposed to be producing tritium and plutonium and providing the necessary materials for existing weapons. Yes, if we dont do something about it, we may find ourselves unilaterally, if i may use that term, dismantling some of these weapons. Whats been going on . Whos been in charge . Whos been managing this system . Why have there been these safety violations . Why are these plants being closed down . I dont know what the latest cost estimates are, but its going to be in the range of 25, 50, 75, 100 billion. Now, somebody has to bear the responsibility for this. Maybe the Vice President has an answer, but im somebody who believes very strongly in taking care of the fundamentals first before you start new stuff. , and thats something which will be a priority of ours in the new administration because without it, we cannot have the effective and strong and Credible Nuclear Deterrent we must have. Bernard mr. Vice president , you have one minute. Vp bush that is the closest i have ever heard the governor of massachusetts come to support anything having to do with nuclear, thats about as close as i have ever heard him. Yes, this Savannah River plant needs to be made more safe. Will he join me in suggesting that we may need another plant . Maybe in idaho, to take care of the requirements, Nuclear Material requirements, for our Defense Department . I hope he will. This sounds like Real Progress here [laughter] vp bush because weve had a big difference on the safe use of Nuclear Power for our energy base. I believe that we must use clean, safe Nuclear Power. I believe that the more dependent we become on foreign oil, the less our National Security is enhanced, and therefore, ive made some proposals to strengthen the Domestic Oil Industry by more incentive going in to look for, and find, and produce oil, made some incentives in terms of secondary and tertiary production, but were going to have to use more gas, more coal and more safe Nuclear Power for our energy base. So i am one who believes that we can and must do what hes talking about now. Bernard ann compton has a question for you. Ann mr. Vice president , as many as 100 officials in this administration have left the government under an ethical cloud. Some have been indicted, some convicted. Many of the cases have involved undue influence once theyre outside of government. If you become president , will you lock that revolving door that has allowed some men and women in the government to come back and lobby the very departments they once managed . Vp bush yes, and ill apply it to congress too. Ill do both. [laughter] [applause] vp bush ill do both. Because i think you see, i am one who i get kidded by being a little Old Fashioned on these things, but i do believe in Public Service. I believe that Public Service is honorable. And i dont think anybody has a call on people in their administrations going astray. His chief education adviser is in jail. Hes in jail because he betrayed the public trust. The head of education. And yet this man, the governor, equated the president to a rotting fish. He said that a fish rots from the head down as he was going after ed meese. Look, we need the highest possible ethical standards. I will have an Ethical Office in the white house that will be under the president s personal concern. I will see that these standards apply to the United States congress. I hope i will do a good job as one who has had a relatively clean record with no conflicts of interest in his own public life, as has the governor, to exhort young people to get into Public Service, but there is no corner on this sleaze factor, believe me. And its a disgrace, and i will do my level best to clean it up, recognizing that you cant legislate morality, but i do believe that with my record in congress, having led the new congressmen to a code of ethics through major main emphasis on it in full disclosure, that ive got a good record. And there are more, if you want to talk about percentage appointments, more members of congress who have been under investigation percentagewise than people in the executive branch. And so it isnt one and state governments have had a tough time. Some of his College President s arent exactly holier than thou. So lets not be throwing stones about it. Lets say, this isnt democrat or republican, and it isnt liberal or conservative. Lets vow to Work Together to do something about it. [applause] bernard governor, you have one minute to respond to it. Gov. Dukakis and i would agree that integrity is not a republican or a democratic issue; its an american issue. But here again, i dont know which george bush im listening to. Wasnt this the mr. Bush that supported mr. Meese . Called james watt an excellent secretary of the interior . Provided support for some of these people, supported the nomination of robert bork to the Supreme Court of the United States . Weve had dozens, weve had dozens and dozens of officials in this administration who have left under a cloud, who have left with the special prosecutor in their arm, have been indicted, convicted. This isnt the kind of administration we need. And one of the reasons our selection of a running mate is so important, it is such a test of the kinds of standards well set, is because it tells the American People in advance of the election just what kind of people were looking for. I picked Lloyd Bentsen. Mr. Bush picked dan quayle. I think that says a great deal to the American People about the standards well set and the quality of the people that we will pick to serve in our administration. [applause] [cheering] bernard to each of you candidates, regrettably, i have to inform you that we have come to the end of our questions. Thats a pity. [laughter] bernard before i ask the candidates to make their closing remarks, on behalf of the commission on president ial debates, i would like to thank all of you for joining us this evening. Governor dukakis, yours is the First Closing statement, sir. Gov. Dukakis 28 years ago, as a young man just graduated from law school, i came to this city, came clear across the country, to watch john kennedy be nominated for the presidency of the United States, right here in los angeles. I never dreamed that some day i would win that nomination and be my partys nominee for president. Thats america. Thats why im proud and grateful to be a citizen of this country. 26 days from today, you and millions of americans will choose two people to lead us into the future as president and Vice President of the United States. Our opponents say, things are okay. Dont rock the boat. Not to worry. They say we should be satisfied. But i dont think we can be satisfied when were spending 150 billion a year in interest alone on the national debt, much of it going to foreign bankers; or when 25 of our High School Students are dropping out of 2. 5ol; or when we have million of our fellow citizens, a third of them veterans, who are homeless and living on streets and in doorways in this country, when mr. Bushs prescription for our Economic Future is another tax giveaway to the rich. We can do better than that. Not working with government alone, but all of us working together. Lloyd bentsen and i are optimists, and so are the American People, and we ask you for our hand, for your hands and your hearts, and your votes on the 8th of november so we can move forward in the future. Kitty and i are very grateful to all of you for the warmth and the hospitality that youve given to us in your homes and communities all across this country. We love you, and were grateful to you for everything that youve given to us, and we hope that well be serving you in the white house in january of 1989. Thank you, and god bless you. [applause] bernard Vice President bush, your closing statement, sir. Vp bush sometimes it does seem that a campaign generates more heat than light. So let me repeat, i do have respect for my opponent, for his family, for the justifiable pride he takes in his heritage, but we have enormous differences. I want to hold the line on taxes, and keep this the longest expansion in modern history going until everybody in america benefits. I want to invest in our children, because i mean it when i say i want a kinder and gentler nation, and by that, i want to have child care where the families, the parents, have control. I want to keep our neighborhoods much, much better in terms of anticrime, and thats why i would appoint judges that have a little more sympathy for the victims of crime and a little less for the criminals. Thats why i do feel, if some Police Officer is gunned down, that the Death Penalty is required. I want to help those with disabilities fit into the mainstream. There is much to be done. This election is about big things, and perhaps the biggest is world peace. And i ask you to consider the experience i have had in working with a president who has revolutionized the situation around the world. America stands tall again, and as a result, we are credible, and we have now achieved an Historic Arms control agreement. I want to build on that. Id love to be able to say to my grandchildren, four years after my first term, id like to say, your grandfather, working with the leaders of the soviet union, working with the leaders of europe, was able to ban chemical and biological weapons from the face of the earth. Lincoln called this country the last best hope of man on earth. And he was right then, and we still are the last best hope of man on earth. And i ask for your support on november 8th. And i will be a good president. Working together, we can do wonderful things for the United States and the free world. Thank you very, very much. [applause] [indistinct conversation] announcer youre watching American History tv, all weekend every weekend on cspan 3. To join the conversation like us n facebook at cspanhistory. On the communicators monday night, were talking to the professor of electrical and technology from carnegie university. Be e next generation will focusing on used automotive Creative Technology completely. They will be able to be with a lot more scenarios on the