Transcripts For CSPAN3 1963 20240705

Historian at harvard university, whos written an acclaimed book about John F Kennedy and Kathleen Kennedy townsend, who is a politician in her own right, whose father Robert F Kennedy was the attorney general when the march on washington occurred. I want to start by switching rating this discussion in a in a bit, a personal way, because we have some personal connections among us. And i want to start in the summer of 1963, before the march and in june in particular, in june of 1963, kathleen, 11 years old, her uncle was the president. Her father was the attorney general. She was growing up in mclean, virginia, the wonderful house called hickory hill. I was growing up in chevy chase, maryland, a neighborhood called somerset. My father was a journalist, was covering the Kennedy Administration and the Justice Department. I was six years old that summer. I. And robert was growing up across the street and a few houses down from us in somerset with his brother burke, whos in the audience with my mother, bea harwood, who was right there, 94 years old, still going strong, is right here in the audience. Burke was just born in may. He was named after his fathers immediate superior at the Justice Department, Burke Marshall. His sister gail was my sister, helens good friend. And in my class and at stoneridge and used to have a lot of good times bouncing on the trampoline in the backyard of roberts. But more importantly, his father did some of the most important work of the Civil Rights Movement from a federal government perspective. He was given medal of freedom by president obama this in the year 2012. And i want to start with a little vignette that shows in, i think, a profound way the kind of work that he did. He was the face of the Justice Department in the south during that period. And at every signal moment of the early Civil Rights Movement there, he was present. And by the way, he was not put in that job by John F Kennedy. He was a republican. He started work in the Civil Rights Division, the Justice Department, during the Eisenhower Administration, and stayed on and is somebody who didnt shrink from the most difficult work, including accompanying James Meredith to register for classes, become the first black american student at the university of mississippi. There was a terrible riot that. He spent the night in James Merediths dorm room. And a year later there was an event that became burned in everyones. It was june 15th. It was after the assassination of medgar evers in, mississippi. And evers funeral took place in jackson. And there was a lot of concern that that was going to result in more violence because there were marchers who wanted to protest beyond the funeral and there were a set of racist Police Officers who were eager to bust some heads. And in the breach, standing in between those two people, those two sets of people was john dore and i want to read a little vignette from a book called the race beat. And it was about press coverage of the Civil Rights Movement. And it talked about that in tense moment. Some of the younger marchers began hurling bottles, bricks and other items at the uniformed officers. Theres a reflection by bill meiner, who was a columnist for paper in mississippi, and he was terrified about what was about to happen to jackson. And he said in the chaos and the oppressive heat, a lanky white man in a white shirt and a thin tie loosened at the collar, walked down the of fair street, urging calm. He was john doar, the assistant attorney general for civil rights. He turned to the cops and he said coolly. He turned to the protesters and said, youre not going to solve anything with bricks and bottles. And bill minor, the columnist for the newspaper in mississippi, said, oh, the statement that he kept repeating with everyones eyes on him, my name is john de dios. Im from the Justice Department and Anyone Around here knows that i stand for whats right. Bill minor, the columnist for the jackson paper, he could not believe the courage that he was witnessing. And when it was, he said that john had answered his prayer and saved the city of jackson. And i want to pull up the picture of john doar. That moment. Hes standing in between the cops, the protesters, and that think was just a remarkable moment of the Civil Rights Movement. So id like to start with robert. You were only two years old at the time, so i dont expect that you have many memories about it, but id be interested in your reflections of juxtaposed against what youve learned over the year. So. First of all, im a little embarrassed by all of that because dads heroes, the heroes that he talked about in our household when i was very young, were the black civil rights workers at the Grassroots Level who risking their lives and lost some of them, their lives to get equal rights in the United States. So bob moses or herbert lee or dr. King or lewis allen. These were people who he really admired most. Francis joseph atlas was the first sharecropper that he went to work for. So they were the ones. And he also knew and he always would out that he knew the he he knew some of the Police Officers behind him and he knew a lot of the protesters in front of them. So he was actually calling out to them as as as he knew and asking them help him quiet that day. And so its nice of you to open this is the way i didnt expect you to do that. I didnt ask you to do that. But and dad was very brave, but there were a lot of people that were a lot braver than him. And i think he thought later in life that he had some of those people that lost their lives down, that he hadnt that this this challenge that they had in south during that time was complicated and hard and difficult and dangerous. And the people they were up against were ferocious, violent and. That i think he thought later that he wish he had actually been able to do more and that there were a lot of things that didnt go quite right. And so thats how he looked at it and thats how my family looked at it. And i would just point out one other item. Its true that he started in the Eisenhower Administration and is a republican, but was in that job because Robert Kennedy wanted him to be in that job and that wouldnt have been possible unless kennedy had seen something him that was worth keeping and. Dad used to say that the chain of command of the Justice Department was, short and straight, john door to work. Marshall to Robert Kennedy to the president of the United States and he had Great Respect and admiration for the people that brought him to the Eisenhower Administration, for sure. But he really thought that the level of the Justice Department and the intensity of their efforts and the support that he got from the from the attorney general and the president was phenomenal. And so, you know, after that, you know, he went back to his hotel and sort of the way that the the kennedys operate know they said call the white house. The president wants to talk to you. And john kennedy came. The United States calling it he was an assistant attorney general. He was the deputy to the assistant attorney general saying, good job, john. And old and old miss. You know, you talk about drummond avenue, my mother was on drummond avenue and Robert Kennedy called her during the night to tell her that when Meredith Meredith was okay and johns okay, he also called dad and said, hey, john, youre a long way from wisconsin, which was where they have is from. So yeah, it was it was exciting and special time in our countrys history. My father played a role in it, but there were a lot of players, a lot of courageous people that did amazing things. And and it wasnt all perfect and it didnt always come out quite right. It was complicated. I recommend to everyone an oral history recorded on video about a half an hour of john doar talking that time and, you know, he was asked the question, are you a hero . He said, no. He said, we wanted make sure we did our best, but i want to switch. Robert mentioned, the call from from Robert Kennedy to kathleen, you have some better memories of that. You were 11 years old and a few days before that event on, june the 10th. It was as George Wallace was integrating or was standing the schoolhouse door to prevent the integration of the university of alabama, which was a sequence that led to a speech that president kennedy gave a nationally televised speech. But i came across this in a in a biography of kathleens father and said on june 10th, the day before, a pair black students were scheduled to illustrate the university of alabama, kennedy had permitted a documentary film crew to record his family breakfast at hickory hill and followed him to work. Cameras showed him cheerfully toweling heads and telling his children to finish their milk. Do you remember that . Yes. Just on this, i James Meredith said about your father, he was one of the bravest people in history. So i. I just want you to know that because were so lucky that we have robert, head of aei, and that we really are and that his put her on this meeting today. And i want to thank. I think thats very important. And its important remember our history and its its ive ive got a famous father, you know, and and youve got a wonderful father whose was really courageous because he really did. Well hear about it maybe more in the next half hour. 45 minutes. But john doar was there with james. Meredith was there and jackson and was all the time in the most dangerous places, working with people who were accustomed to working with the department of justice, talking with people, getting the fbi to do the right thing, which was really really difficult. And i hope well get into that at one point. Yes thank you. Yeah. Okay. So you didnt point out that robert ran my 86 campaign. Yeah, actually i did not know that. Yeah, well, thats a little detail. We dont advertise a lot. He doesnt want to, but. There are some secrets he to keep. Im also number one. Lets get back to. Lets go. Lets go back to this with the documentary crew. So you remember that. Yes. Yes so daddy allowed the documentary film crew to come into our house. There are a lot of pictures of our house. And then he allowed them to come to the Justice Department. And what is interesting about and i have to give a credit to my sister so you can see daddy with about five children in his arms when hes talking to robert doar and Nick Katzenbach and trying to integrate at the university of alabama. Now its very popular today to have children come to work right . It was not really popular in 1963. Nobody had take your children to work day. And no, you didnt do it usually with father when hes on the call with the police with the National Guard and trying to get people to do the integration. And yet because he has children on his lap, he has an understanding that you are dealing. Human beings. And also, its difficult to keep your humanity when youre also talking about how to make do the right thing. And i think its critically interesting to think when sometimes when people make tough decisions, its just im going to be very tough and not understand that theyre human beings that youre talking about. But if you have a child on your lap and other children running up and down your office, you may not understand, daddy, most attorney used a side room for their office, which was ten feet by 12 feet. My father used a room that was about this because he liked to pass football in the room was a really room and theres children. My brothers and sisters just ran up and down while hes the phone. And i think it makes for an interesting way of dealing with your work because youre not just dealing with your head. Youre also dealing with your heart and with your gut about how youre going to deal how youre going to work out the issue of integrate the university of alabama and youre also going to remain true to your children. And by the way, just speaking of that, the abc news recorded three kennedy kids running around the office and rfk interrupted the discussion and put kerry on the phone and put kerry the phone with Nick Katzenbach, who was the Deputy Attorney general. And katzenbach told kerry, tell your father its 98 degrees down here. Were all going to need hardship, pay. All right. I want to pull the lens back and go to fred. Obviously, this is the John F Kennedy administration. John f kennedy political career began after World War Two when he was elected to congress and it wasnt always a straight path. He was someone who had the impulse to do the right thing as, as kathleen put it, but also was balancing that against political pragmatism. Talk a little bit about that. The john kennedy. Yeah, its exactly the case. I think. I think he was a person largely free of personal prejudice. I write a little bit about this in volume one of the biography. Im going to flesh this point out in the second, second volume, theres lots of evidence, john, that he tended to treat people the same jfk did regardless their station in life, regardless of skin color and so forth. So theres that. And thats evident early on as hes running for congress. Its early. Its evident the house and in the senate. But have to balance that against what i guess i would call an intermittent attention to Racial Injustice and and so the daily plight of africanamericans was not something that typically moved him. And so its those two things that are in some way in tension with one another. What you see, i think, is a maybe to some people surprisingly progressive voting record in the house and in the senate by John F Kennedy on the issue of civil. I was surprised when i started my research at that fact its there and in the record but as i think youre suggesting, john hes a political and so he plays with southern segregationists in 1960. Im now at the story volume two in which im getting him elected. So ive just spent a lot of time in. 1960. And its clear that on this issue in particular. This pragmatism ultimately wins out. He believes that he needs southern support first to claim nomination as a catholic and as somebody who is deemed to be too young by the young by most people, inexperienced, and then to win against nixon, the fall campaign. But fred, let me go back even further. In 1960, you recount an episode in the book in your first volume in 1956, when John F Kennedy decided to go and the people around decided to go for the vice presidency and get him nominated. Yeah. And as part of that effort, of course the Democratic Coalition at that point was extremely dependent on white southern segregationists, the solid south. He was asked during that attempt to get the vice presidency he would publicly affirm the rightness of the Brown V Board Supreme Court decision outlawing legal segregation in schools. And he wouldnt do it though its quite true segregationists, as i think you all know, the key committees in congress, they were hugely important in the democratic party. And it was it was a brief it a very dramatic moment when this race for the vice presidency occurred, because adlai stevenson, as i think, you know, decided to throw the the nomination to the floor of the convention. And the kennedys were not really prepared for this. Nobody was prepared for this. And think, as john points out, he faced that moment and he wouldnt affirm it even then, both before that from 47 up to 56, and then in 57, 58 and 59 on legisla later votes. As i said earlier, hes actually, it seems to me, progressive but hes being really cautious, really careful. You know, theres theres a quote by the writer john egerton that i often used which i think speaks powerfully to kennedys position and maybe the position of many others at that point, egerton said as follows segregation restrict me in any way, and therefore it was for me to go about my business, take my freedom for granted, and not think too much about else. It seems to me a very powerful statement by egerton might made much later, more or less kennedys contemporary. And i think its also, in a sense, summarizing John F Kennedy own position in this period. Im glad to say that that i think there was a lot of growth going on and theres been a lot of writing about growth in the kennedy view of the world. But what Burke Marshall would say was that the more they were exposed to the bravery and dignity of Civil Rights Movement workers, the freedom riders and the people that that marched in the streets in birmingham and saw the absolute violence and hatred of the organized racist south and saw people get their heads crashed in in completely defenseless circumstances, walking off a bus with no Police Officers anywhere around and being attacked by a mob of 50 men. They their sense of injustice and their humanity woke up and as Burke Marshall used say, the more they saw, the angrier got. No question. I think thats true. Although it is interesting that when daddy was at the university of virginia, he did ask ralph bunche to come and speak and it was there was a fight because there was a lot there was a law and a rule at the university of virginia, all across virginia, that there could be no segregation integrated audiences and. Daddy fought to have it integrated. And it was the First Time Ever in the state, virginia, that there was an integrated audience at the at uva and ralph bunche. There was no hotel that would take in. So he spent the night at my parents. And all night long. My parents house was pelted bananas and apples and rocks because so many people were angry that my parents him in and that he was there got hit. So my father had some sense that some people like africanamericans or blacks, but didnt understand it to. The great extent that it clearly started to understand. But as soon as he got to the justice apartment in the first week, he walked through, Justice Department said where the black lawyers and said immediately, weve got to hire more black lawyers. So he understood the intellect fully, i think. But not viscerally. And his gut. And then that took some time, robert said in may. Just very quickly, in may of 1960. And i think this would apply both brothers. But in may of 1960, just as campaign the Democratic National convention will meet in a couple of months, theyre starting to think about the fall race. Theyre feeling confident about the nomination. Robert kennedy said to harris wofford, civil rights official with the campaign. He said, you know, i havent known too many black people in my life. Tell us tell me about this. Tell me what we need to do. It speaks to to the kind of upbringing that they had and this is certainly true of jfk, but i think its also true of robert. But again, this capacity that all three of you were talking about for for understanding and for growth. Well, the other thing theyre political people. Yeah. You know, they they had to win. They wanted to win. And they needed to they needed south. And i think Robert Kennedy said when he went to speak in georgia that the state of georgia gave the president the largest percentage victory of any state in the union. In terms of the margin. And so they were always operating in a world in which they had to navigate a political circumstance when speak really, which was not so easy to just sort of reach all the way for the end game before you laid the groundwork. Speaking of that speech, in 1960, in georgia in particular, there was a landmark incident in that campaign when Martin Luther king had been jailed for a minor offense and sentenced by a judge to hard labor for certain period of time. And it was an outrageous sentence. And the Kennedy Campaign had to figure out what to do about it. And was John F Kennedy the candidate . And robert, who was his top political adviser . And as it happened. John f kennedy called Martin Luther king. All right. Sorry, called coretta king. And robert called judge and eventually turned out to be more effective. Eventually, the Martin Luther king was released. But fred, talk a little bit about what went into that decision. Well, i think here its worth giving a shout out. I think two, maybe two people in particular. One is harris wofford, who i mentioned before. The other is sergeant shriver. And there were others in the campaign who basically said, we need to show what were about in this case. And i think to roberts point, it was also they thought the smart thing politically to do this is a voting this is something that actually could help swing this election and. And it did. And it did. And John F Kennedy pick up the phone called, mrs. King. Robert kennedy was initially skeptical, shall we say, of that decision. But. But. But decided for his. Because the two brothers were ultimately on the same page. That he was going to make his own effort. And it worked. And of course, one, when an election is as close as the 1960 election was, any one of 12 things could be called decisive. But one of those 12 could certainly be this decision that the two of them made against the advice of other people in the campaign. Strong encouragement from from from shriver and from wofford that that tipped the balance on this razor thin much than they imagined it would be election to come. I know one of my favorite quotes from that is that Martin Luther king said, im not going to, but what his father said, ill vote for a catholic or the devil himself. So clearly, father didnt even like catholics. Thats how deep the anticatholic sentiment was. Ive got a full of votes for senator case, so i anyway, i just its very interesting about the anti catholicism dont want to tell to historians because if taylor tells this episode very well in part in the waters and lewis martin was another black member of the Blue Campaign staff who was very influential in this they didnt know robert and john kennedy didnt know how effective it was going to turn out politically till after they did it and after it paid off. And they did it very stealthily once they had made these calls and reverend kings senior had announced his endorsement. They went through the black press and the black churches, and they told story there, but they didnt tell it and advertise in alabama or they they made a leaflet that was distributed and among black voters said jfk called nixon did not. And just one last thing i think any Campaign Aide would have dared to advise kennedy to call the judge. They were afraid of how he would react negatively that he went off and did that on his own. Well, now, think historians may disagree on because evan thomas in his biography of rfk said that in fact, he was doing at the direction of his brother. And it recounts a story that came out much later that was John F Kennedy had called the governor of georgia. Thats right. Who was a who said, i want you to win, but i dont want to be embarrassed myself. That would harm me politically. So lets do this quietly. Dont you get a call put in to judge . And thats what kathleens father did. Well, lets take it forward to once the administration took. Fred, describe their the administrations relation ship. A mix, of course, vision and idealism toward the Civil Rights Movement. Well, this pragmatism that were talking about, i think, continues to very much rule the rules of the game. You will. And i think and ill speak primarily of the president , i think he tended react to violent incidents and it took that often for him to respond to in a forceful manner and to direct his brother to do the same. And so there is a kind of evolution. And if you look at Martin Luther kings views and taylor branch, of course, has written so powerfully this in 60 and even in 61, i think he was under the impression that john kennedy didnt really get it, didnt really understand the stakes and was necessary here. But over time, as we get into 62 and certainly into 63, kings view to change and he called in the early part of 1963. He is now referring to what he calls a new kennedy, a new jfk. So he saw that that happened. But i think i think, john, before that it is pragmatism. Theres a sense on the part of jfk that if i want to have legislation passed domestically enough, if i want support for my cold war policies, always the most important thing to John F Kennedy in this period is how to respond internationally. Ive got to have southern segregationists who are controlling committees. Ive got to have them on my side. So as robert pointed out, extremely political all the way through the its fascinating me the way that the cold war was threaded throughout this period. You talk in your book about when he was a congressman, he was advocating various civil rights measures. He saying, if we dont do this, we will give fodder to the soviet union to trash talk the United States. On the other hand, in the early part of its administration, including in 1963, when you had violent incidents and you had push and pull between the of the protesters, the violence of the resisters, and trying to tamp down both of them. So it wasnt too explosive. One of the reasons he gave was the more discord, violent discord we have in the country, the more fodder thats going to give to the soviet union. So that was threaded through. But i want to get, kathleen, you to react to this point. And again, this is from the biography of your father in early june, when they learned of kings for a mass march on washington. The kennedys were very anxious. It was clear the kennedys could not stop the march, but they could try to control and coopted. Talk a little. That. Thats. I just want to remind you, because charlayne huntergault told me this story about how when my father went and gave the speech in georgia, he said the Civil Rights Movement has to work or something to that extent, because its part of the fight for the cold war. And she said it made her feel so good that they were on the front lines for, the cold war. I think what he must have said sounded better than. What youve described it, or at least he made it sound better than what they were afraid of anyway. Justice. So they learned that Martin Luther king wanted to do the march on washington. They had a choice to fight it or to say, lets Work Together and the decision was by john kennedy and my father, lets Work Together. And so my father put together a group at the Justice Department run by john douglas, who was a very friend of john muir. And my and my mother and and then my father to help. And they met every morning and every afternoon to figure out how they can help make sure that the march on washington went well. And they must have worked very closely with bayard rustin. But they they worked on making sure speaker system was working. They they got jerry bruno who was the best advanced person in the Kennedy Campaign to work on it. They down. They brought african black Police Officers from new york because there were no black Police Officers in washington, d. C. They wanted them. You heard that. They made sure there was no liquor. There was no glass so that there could be no glass. They they at one point, they were afraid that there werent going to be enough people. John kennedy brought labor leaders to make sure that there were a lot of white people involved in the march because they wanted to make sure that it was an integrated and there were there were a number of things that they really wanted to do. They wanted a large march. They wanted to be integral and and they looked at some of the speeches. To make that there wasnt too radical that upset a number of of blacks. And malcolm x was very angry at what he saw was a cooption of the march. He didnt the idea that blacks and whites playing in in the reflecting pond together but john wanted to get civil rights bill passed and he thought the more that looked like people were for and there was a large crowd blacks and whites for the civil rights bill. The greater the opportunity of getting it passed. I think in the one of the earlier panels and we might have a different reading and, i wish that the house looked like they were were willing to get past the senate with the leaders of the right wing at the conservative senators didnt want it to get passed and youre right taylor he really needed the republicans. Everett dirksen was very, very important to get that passed. But it was very important for the the white house. President kennedy, Robert Kennedy to get as many people to that march as possible to make it work as well as possible to make it peaceful as well as possible. Yeah. The overriding imperative was for that march to be success for all. And that was a a paramount priority, the administration. Did they succeed . Oh, i think absolutely they succeeded. I mean, it was andrew young says we the quote in the pamphlet that after the march, it became a an american movement, not just a civil rights black movement in the south. It sent a message and i, i was checking some interesting, you know, more topical data. 250,000 people. It was huge crowd. Amazing crowd. And i dont think that you could say that john kennedy got them to come. He asked them to help bring them in. The labor unions and the Christian Church groups and the jewish groups. They came volunteer early. They came because this was something special. And then dr. King gave a tremendous speech that put all together and said that his dream was was was part of the american dream. And so, yeah, i think was successful. The other thing i was going to mention, you know, this most recent disaster, january 6 10 thousand people here in washington, twice and people in the capital, 250,000 men, and they didnt march on the capital. They went to the lincoln memorial. They didnt want it to. They wanted it to be a commune, a gathering that didnt that would would be successful politically. And then they all go over to the white house, which is another amazing thing to me. But all the leaders. Fred, if may be true, as robert said, that it became an american movement, then it nonetheless is true that the prospect for that civil rights bill were very much in doubt when it was proposed. After that, it was only after the of president kennedy and the tremendous political momentum that accrued to new president Lyndon Johnson that they got it passed. Yeah, no, its and kennedys pivot on this is pretty interesting. Early on, hes very skeptical of the marches. I think weve discussed because he thinks itll harm the prospects for the bill then after theyve decided to work with the organizers and to have the march, now he wants a very large turnout. He says the worst thing for this will be if its a small march because, itll convince southerners in particular. Well, i guess this is not a very big issue. So then he he wants a very large march. But i think its i think data points are interesting here. Even before the march in july of 1963, a harris so this is after his june nine, june 11th speech, a harris poll says that 90 of africanamericans intend to vote for John F Kennedy. His reelection. And then after the march the poll actually the poll numbers go even higher, if you can imagine. 89 slightly lower, but 89 in a gallup poll, i think in late august approve of the job that the administration is doing in civil rights. But i think youre right, john, it still requires the efforts of Lyndon Johnson, heroic efforts. Hes benefiting from the fact that hes following a martyred president. And but but nevertheless, role in 64 is critical. But i believe, as im going to argue in the second volume, the actions John F Kennedy and his Brother Robert in three and others who are involved in this, including john, of course, paved the way for what happens in 64. And so that needs to be acknowledged in any discussion of the 1964 act. Kathleen, i want to get you to comment on the in the context of other events, fred talked about the galvanizing importance for John F Kennedy and perhaps father of those violent incidents, which became a spur to. How would you situate the march on washington and its influence on the ultimate success of the movement with the murder . The three Civil Rights Movement workers in june of 1964. Immediately the passage of the of the Civil Rights Act, which occurred in july, and then the following year, the passage of the Voting Rights bill after the selma march and the violence that took place. Before i that, i just wanted to point out when john gave the speech and then called civil rights a moral issue and tailored said, you know, that they were still writing the speech before it was actually on. Thats right. Everybody in the white house was john kennedy giving the speech. Everybody except for my father. Only my father and john kennedy wanted him to take on civil rights. So thats just interesting in and of itself. And it is my father who did say and his he was wrong about this. He said, look, irish overcame discrimination. Africanamericans can overcome it, too. And they will have a black president in 40 years, just as we. And he was right about that. In 40 years. We did get barack obama. Im not saying my father was he happened to be right. Who knows why he was right . I think the violence made a big difference. And i its a very sad i got to say. I do believe that my father, my uncles death helped get it through. And i it makes me very sad that violence helps move people. And i dont like saying it and i dont like it to be true and makes me very sad that i have to answer that question. Yes. And that people respond to to some to terror to dont and what thats what people respond to. So im so sorry that i have to say that. And im sorry that you had to ask that question. And im so sorry that children had to die. Its just an awful, awful situation. And it made me sad to hear the the panel before me speak about how everybody wants to be a victim. That one group they were talking about, all the progressives who want to be victims and all the people who are support. Trump wants to be a victim and i find it all very, very very unhappy. I just you know, i that john kennedy showed us what you can do for your country and father, i thought, tried to appeal to the best of us. And i thought franklin asked us not to fear and was just my heart is broken when i have to answer that question. Im really sad about it and i wish we could figure a different way to talk about ourselves and to talk about our politics and to get things done in a different way. Robert, your reflection on the question. Well, so one of the stories that my dad used to tell was that when went over to the white house to the president , president kennedy and the attorney general said he could along and he went with Burke Marshall and his boss and the attorney general, and they go over to the white house. And, you know, for bureaucrats in washington, is big deal. Youre Justice Department official and youre going to see the president and they went in and Robert Kennedy said, now, now, mr. President , john, john was here before us. Hes one of those guys we kept around. And the president said, well, we better be careful what we say. And and then what i was getting to was this was a strategy discussion about, the Civil Rights Act and the president looked around and and saw these people related to his team and the attorney general. And his first thing out of his mouth was, wheres the Vice President . We need him here. And so they went and got him. And the Vice President came in. And this is a story would tell you. Historians have to confirm this, but this is a story he tell. And i think its true. I know its true. And the president Vice President at the time, Lyndon Johnson was kind of a prickly guy and he was a little mad, even pulled out of a meeting or Something Else and had been sort of treated like an afterthought and he came in and he was grouchy and unpleasant, kind of sullen and but the conversation got going. And the minute it turned to strategy on hill, the vice perked up and, said, well, no, no, let me tell you how were going to do. And let me tell you what we have to who we have to talk to about this. And my father used to always say that it was a, you know, both worked on it together and they both had qualities that made it happen. And then, of course, the movement was the principal driver. And but that president johnsons political abilities were very successful. And the last thing ill just say is, is when Robert Kennedy went to the signing ceremony of the Civil Rights Act and Lyndon Johnsons signed it and he had, you know, 20 pens and he handed a pen and said, give this to john doar. Robert kennedy put it in a nice thing and sent it to him. And the inscription was then used to sign president kennedys civil act of 1964. So you know, politicians and they they and thats okay because theyre competing when theyre at their best to do whats right for america. Were going to go to questions in just a moment. But before we do that, id like to get brief thoughts from of you on the following question. Taylor, in his remarks, talked about how the march on the likened it to a baptism, a beginning in the panel with jason and robert ian, they emphasized a different angle, which was more that that that was the the fundamental work of the movement was done and now other things need be emphasized including personal responsibility. How do you guys see the march on washington in terms of beginning or end point with respect to the current day . Who wants to go . Dont you go first of so i think thats an important turning for the country. I think it had an enormous effect on two major acts of congress in the future years. And i think it was also a high point of a certain aspect of the Civil Rights Movement. Were going to talk about this in the next panel with bob woodson of of a certain even though if you read the real facts, there was no ever was getting along with their brother anything but there was a certain unity and and a purity and an innocence to them, to the movement and to the effort. And then i think what happened in later years, not right then, but over time in the later sixties, it to lose its its glory. And so i am of those who believe that when we went from aspirations for black americans and a recognition of their assets and their qualities of greatness to a rhetoric about black americans that does talk about as victims persistently racism that can never go away that isnt consistent with the movement pre the march and so i dont know that it was a beginning. I think it was a culmination and it was a turning point. But i dont i dont thats how i see it. Fred yeah, its an interesting question. I guess i would also say that its its a its an important turning point. Or if we look at the june 11th speech together with the march, if we put those two together and we think about the summer of 63, its an extraordinary moment in this story, hugely important moment. It seems to me, not least for what it what it says about the thinking in the white house and how this issue is now going to be approached. And i think thats true of John F Kennedy in his final five months of life. I think its true of his Vice President who will take over after that terrible day in dallas. But its certainly not a culmination because of everything that still needs to happen. And still needs to happen today. But its its its theres no question in my mind that as we as we write the history of this ongoing struggle, that period and the march and the turn out for the march and dr. Kings speech, reverend kings speech, just important catholic. Role it took between march in 1968. Theres theres lot of churning. So i think that if you say its the beginning of the end, thats how i would put it. And it did. And then the end, this 1968, because you you get to laws that are very important passed and then you have the burnings in the. 4 to 2 summers and you have a real fights over the vietnam war. So and then you the split a really important split in in the in the movement between, the black panthers who give up on god and Martin Luther who believes in god. What do you say. She she sends she said thumbs up. Amen yeah. And i think that hurt. And ive written it and ive about this so youre going to hear about it here. And that, i think, hurts the Womens Movement. And i think it hurts every other Progressive Movement which has been detrimental to our country. Whos a question . You know, theres a can i just say on this point, theres this theres a photograph that some of you may have seen it was taken by a photographer of the Dallas Morning News on november 22nd, early the morning on the 22nd. Can John F Kennedy last day as it turned out, in which a black gentleman reaches across a group of people to shake the hand of John F Kennedy. And its just and i think about that image and its importance and it just resonates with me im going to try to have that image if i can get permission in the book but it just speaks to this question and i think the hope that i see that is expressed right there in dallas of all places on that day. Questions. Yes yes. I still and i introduced myself this morning, so ill skip that and go straight to my first question. If theres time. I have a second one. I read all the decisions by the on civil are written by the federal Southern Federal district judges appointed by both eisenhower and kennedy. And its clear that the eisenhower judges more likely to write pro civil decisions than the kennedy appointed judges. And indeed, two of the best were appointed federal judges were appointed by eisenhower in two of the worst by kennedy. Could you please comment on that or maybe explain it so i can i this is a so judge tuttle, wisdom brown and reeves along with justice judge johnson were great judges who were appointed by just judge eisenhower, president. And they they needed to do a lot of work because other judges on that bench reported previously or including a few that were appointed by president kennedy werent so good. And so thats all true. Thats jack bass has written about it and and i think that in the its you have to look at the entire record of the kennedy appointments because there were some good ones in there as well in the south and the fifth circuit. But but what i think the Robert Kennedy and president kennedy were dealing with and the political people in the white house were dealing with, was the long tradition of deferring to the senators from those states and the democratic from those states wanted their guys and they were all guys appointed. And when eisenhower was in office, the very few republicans in the south got to pick their guys and the Republican Party prior to 1960 was the Party Lincoln and was the party of civil rights for blacks in the south. So wisdom tuttle and reeves and came from that tradition. But they ended up being allies of the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department under Robert Kennedy and. They were great allies in president kennedy. Robert kennedy were never afraid. Give them credit for the historic decisions they made. I think weve got a question right here to. If you can see more about your perspective on the secularization of the movement. You see the split. And one of the things thats happened in much of the narrative is that people have missed, understood and not appreciated how the death of a profound belief in god was movement generated when theres pivot with panthers and all of the hard black nationalist stuff that created a real crisis that the black community for many years never overcame. Could you say more about your understanding . Well, this is my perspective so up recently. It would. The statistics are that 80 of the United States religious believed in god. And so if if if and when Martin Luther king talks about god, they have to they listen because theres something that they that everybody shares a christian tradition or religion or Judeo Christian tradition. If you give up that, that means youre giving up on shared values. And that i taught, i think was is a mistake politically. Every Progressive Movement in the United States until the last the last three the Womens Movement and the lgbt movement and the black Panther Movement not have a religious tradition. In the 19th century, the feminists had a womens and the wrens the anti Slave Movement found. They looked at the bible and said oh yes, there may be slaves, which is what the Southern Baptists said. And they said. But christ believed in freedom. So they use the same and they found freedom in the bible. So they used so they took religion, rewrote it by giving up on religion. They say seeded they seeded the seed seeded its seeded. I love it when i get the right word. They seeded a huge tradition with which to talk to half the country, which i think is a mistake. As you can tell from my tone of voice, i know. Enough said, sir, that so i. This is two fold. Excuse me, two fold. This question is twofold. Twofold. So the first question, first of all, it is definitely for mr. Our beloved frederick douglass. It is easier to build strong children, to repair broken men. What is your message to our babies today that are living in a world where history is being erased in the news lines ahead of them . To you, mr. Door. I find it to be interesting that a think tank on the conservative side of america is the group thats holding this conversation today. And i commend you for that. However, when we leave this building, we know the world that we live in. What is your message to your party today . That is not the party of lincoln . So, kathleen you go the first part was directed to you, but was i that he looked at robert . Yeah. Okay. So i guess i should put my glasses. Okay. Okay. Robert, why dont you take this second . So, virgil, thank you. I want to be clear about sort of a i the leadership of ace view of of this gathering. We just felt that the 60th anniversary of the march on washington was worthy of a conversation. And then it is true that because of my background, i had a way of doing it. But i you know, this is not comprehensive. There other voices, there are other leaders or, other people that should also be part of this conversation and should be having their own. And i dont think that theres any contradict and really, honestly in a i which believes in freedom and believes in america and believes in the declaration of independence and the constitution and the 14th amendment for us to celebrate that, because the values of march are very consistent with the values of aei. So thats the simple part. On the second part, there are aspects of our current conservative world right now that are broken and divided against each and a role is to have independence who work here contrib you to that debate in a positive productive way and every day a scholar i put something out in some component of the debate and thats what we do. I dont take a position the i an official position and we let our scholars speak for themselves. And i think if you look at of their work you all of them. Chris scalias here michael strain, Christine Rosen and ruy teixeira. We mentioned youll see that their voices on a variety of issues are contributing construct actively to that debate and and the last thing ill just say is is im not quite so clear that when it comes to race in america, im absolutely not clear at all that the republicans are all wrong and the democrats. All right. I dont think thats true. I think its more complicated than that. And there are good voices on both. And and theyre harmful voices on both sides. And so we try be part of the good voices, adding constructively to the debate. Kathleen, i think the first part of the question for you was, what would you tell people at a when some people are have seemed to have a desire to obscure some of the history, the Civil Rights Movement . Yes, sir. Well, ill tell you what i did, which is i as you what i did in maryland is get kids to do service. Everybody act and everybody to learn values and in the learning of action, values they can, we should also history and. And i think really important in learning history when look i history im not to say Something Else im moving on the interesting thing about that was my major American History and literature. The interesting about the United States is they dont most americans dont know much history. Thats not our tradition. Unlike europe, were not except for the except for the civil war. Most americans dont know any history at all. Its just of interesting. And so theyre usually refighting wars and things that they did 20 years ago, five years ago, a lot of people dont know who john kennedy is or they certainly dont know who Robert Kennedy is. When the berlin down berlin wall fell down, somebody called my husband who teaches st johns college. They didnt know who he was. He just they thought it was a professor. And he said, you should talk to my wife. Why . Or shes related. John kennedy who she. Is now. Okay. Well, had something to do with the berlin wall. Okay. Okay, okay. Im just giving you how little and he was a reporter for a paper which i wont name, but heard of it. My only is theres a lot non people that dont know history. So that might be kind of valuable. But in america in in other words i know this is not really popular think tank but maybe what we should do is try to just create a future and for those who want to learn history we can teach them some history and you can think of the 20 things that you want them to know. Okay, i know thats really unpopular, but it might be thats consistent with what america is people to know the future. And so maybe it is the most important thing we do is to create a future. My father would hate it if said that we were quizzed every at dinner on what happened and then on history. So what ive said is really unpopular. But it is really hard now and were fighting about history so maybe we should just fight about how were going to create a good future. All right. One final comment like to get from fred. Since your profession been invoked to talk about. How you feel as you look the future, when you know that a lot of what kathleen said is correct and how watch how i said, how optimistic are you that events of this kind in classrooms around the country are going to be able to impart to the next generation what they ought to take from our the past in the Civil Rights Movement. You know, im ultimately optimistic about my adopted homeland. Im from sweden originally, but im but this is now my home and i do think john that in time. Were going to work through the we have, which i think are really severe. Theres no question. Kathleen says that the teaching and that history has a role to play. My students are a very somewhat unique demographic. I mean, they come they come to harvard. The undergraduates and the graduate students with in and its a selfselecting group that i teach, meaning they have an interest in history, often a great knowledge of history. And so its really inspiring to be their teacher. So in that sense, im also optimistic about what young people want and, what they want to see, and maybe ill just finish john by going back to john kennedy on this. I think the reason why kennedy was so inspirational, inspirational to so many people and why people in the summer of 63, even before his assassination, more americans claim to have voted for him in 1960 than actually did vote for him in 1960 is because of a message that conveyed both before he was in the white house and after he was in the white house, which the things that unite are more important than the that divide americans, which i think is important. Then, of course, we all associate him with the idea that and this is what they got from their parents, from joe and rose, youve got give something back, believe something greater than yourselves. And so would say bringing the last two questions together in a sentence to to to convey to young people the importance of that notion ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Its just it has more resonance, it seems to me, today, than than than ever before. Can i just so remember i told you i got every person in maryland to Community Service and why did i do that . Because every child then felt they were powerful. They chose a in their community, in their school. And im going to tell a story. So i went to a school with blue school and i said to the kids, what you want to do if, you could change anything in your school or community. Would you like to do and nobody answered. And finally, one ninth grader said, you see mrs. Townsend. Weve been taught to be seen and not. And thats what i want to change that. You can be seen and heard and make a difference. And so giving people a sense that they can be powerful and so many young people dont feel from communities i care about this did not happen in roland in parts anyway but the kids that i to touch is the agent and then in doing what they want to do you can teach them history when they do it if youre a good teacher but they have it has to be connected to oh what youre doing to action okay are you still happy with me . Will you join me in taking this terrific and. Also, i think its very much for doing