Up next, author and National Parks service historian Jerome Greene talks about his book, american carnage, wounded knee, 1890. The book takes a comprehensive look at south dakota massacre, the causes and the aftermath. Talk, he recounts firsthand recollections from lakota indians about the day in which the u. S. Cavalry fired on their camp. The Kansas City Public Library hosted this program. I am curious how many of you have heard of wounded knee before today . It is wellknown next to the battle of the little bighorn. My first knowledge came from school, probably junior high school. I grew up in Northern New York state. I remember reading in the magazines of the day, this is way back in 1958, 1959, probably most of you were not even around then. I remember reading in the pulp magazines of the day that provided fodder for my interests. I know they carried articles on wounded knee. I remember asking my grandmother, who was born in 1881, she was a young girl, nine years old when wounded knee occurred in about 1958, 59 i approached her and i can remember being in the room him in the house and i asked her if she remembered anything about hearing about wounded knee. I believe she told me that she thought vaguely that it sounded familiar to her. But, that was a long time ago and she was an old lady. My first visit to the site came in 1969 when i was a graduate student at the university of south dakota. Wounded knee is a big story, has a very important story, but it is not a pretty story. My purpose with american carnage was not only to clarify the mechanics of the event as it unfolded out of the ground, but to show how it indeed became a massacre. I wanted to show why it happened at all. And explain what transpired afterwards as it respects the lakota people. Briefly stated. The book starts in 1938, washington d. C. Nearly 50 years after the massacre. As lakota survivors sought government recognition and compensation for what had happened to them in 1890. The story then flashes back to discuss lakota existence on the planes and the wars with the u. S. Government and the succession of treaties, notably, the fort laramie treaty of 1868 and the establishment of the great sioux reservations and what is now essentially all of south dakota west of the missouri river. It also deals with the repeated government reductions of that land including the taking of the black hills which contained gold. Together with the increasing inroads of white settlements, all of this was accompanied by gradual cultural disruption among the lakota people including growing ascension that arose between the progressive and traditionalists elements among them. This was further aggravated overtime by the arrival of drought and epidemics of sickness, all of which was succeeded by surprise cutbacks in government rations. By late 1889, devastating and overwhelming the people. This led to the lakotas uncertainty regarding their continued existence as a people. Fostering a devastation that led many of them to turn to the ghost dance as a way to rejuvenate culturally and to ensure their survival as a people. The coming of the ghost dance became the direct catalyst and precursor for the military occupation of the sioux reservations that in due course culminated in the death of sitting bull. And determined the resulting flight of chief bigfoot and his people south of the Cheyenne River to their doom on Wounded Knee Creek. All of this is thoroughly chronicled in the book, for those of you wouldve seen the book, i think you can appreciate the amount of research that went into it. Also, the roles of the principal leaders like red cloud, sitting bull, american horse. Also the for most ghost dance leader, short bowl and kicking bear. And James Mclachlan and military leaders like Major General nelson miles. He was the overall commander of operations in south dakota. Brigadier general john brooke, especially colonel james forsyth, who commanded the seventh calvary and the first artillery contingents at wounded knee. Among the controversies related to wounded knee and interest that link are the following, the socalled and perhaps aptly named Crook Commission and the part played by Major General george crook in financing an agreement where the sioux surrendered millions more acres of their land in 1889. The contributory role of onsite press representatives in fomenting rumors about inflamed fears among settlers who believe that a fullfledged indian war was either imminent or ongoing. The issues surrounding the death of sitting bull two weeks before wounded knee to include the dubious role of the flow bill buffalo bill cody and seeking the medicine mans arrest on the Standing Rock reservation will stop the long enduring question of army premeditation for the massacre at wounded knee. This involved into a fullfledged massacre of men, women, and children. The Army Killings of the oglala woman and her three children that same day just five days miles from the massacre at wounded knee. This was revenge for the massacre of custers force 14 years earlier. And the award of medals of honor to some of the soldiers at wounded knee. There is full discussion of the collateral armyindian fighting that followed wounded knee elsewhere on the pine ridge reservation. This is not just a military account, it is the story of the lakotas. I included as much of their narrative. It further explains what happened to the lakota survivors of wounded knee and the matter of their fight for government recognition and compensation for the human losses they endured all the way into the 1930s and 1940s. You may be interested to know that some of the wounded knee survivors lived until the late 1970s. Can you imagine that . Still alive. Of course, they were babes and toddlers at the time in 1890. They were still living on this earth while you and i were here. Little known is the fact that general miles in retirement became a champion or compensating the sioux for what had happened to them at wounded knee. As early as 1891, miles had turned the event into the most abominable criminal military blunder and a horrible massacre of women and children. That is nelson miles who was in command of operations there. He wrote that to his wife just a day or two after. Those are characterizations that his superiors in washington, d. C. Did not embrace. I greatly appreciate the fine effort that went into the books production by the editors and staff of the university of oklahoma press. They are topnotch in my book. Literally. [laughter] the book contains 16 chapters, nearly 50 illustrations and six maps, all new maps, together with complete notes, nine appendices, a conference of index, and a thorough bibliography. One appendix comprises the entirety of the fort laramie treaty of 1868 which is indeed a critical reference regarding the lead up to wounded knee. As i mentioned, i would like to share with you a reading from the book, but first i want to orient you a little bit to the map that you see to my right. To my left, it is to your right. This site is quite small and quite concentrated. It occupies only a quarter section. This is only 160 acres. This is on the sioux reservation of pine ridge, south dakota. The sites i would like you to be aware of, this is Wounded Knee Creek which runs along the eastern periphery of the area. You see a large ravine that runs down to Wounded Knee Creek. This was very critically important to what happened at wounded knee. This is a very deep ravine. It is some 25 feet deep, 2530 feet deep. It is as wide as 150 feet in places. It is a dry ravine, it does not have water. And sometimes it might have water, but it did not have it on 1890. This portion is called the pocket. Do you see the pocket up here . That was of upmost significance to what happened. The roads, this is a road to the pine ridge agency. About 18 miles to the south, southwest, west and the southwest. This road called fast course horse road runs in the northwest direction towards other tribal communities in that vicinity. The army camp is located up here where the two bivouac areas are, i am showing the tents. And, the troops were scattered around in different places, this is a line of exes down here. This represents a chain guard, troops who surrounded the camp the night before wounded knee. These people were all brought in the day before wounded knee and they had been captured by major witzies unit. They were brought to wounded knee and the second squadron of the seventh calvary was sent for at pine ridge, 18 miles driving around midnight. They came in surreptitiously, probably moving around like this rather than coming right up through the area to alarm the people who were in the camp here, the indian camp. This is a temporary feature, this is not a village, this is a camp. Next to the army camp, you see these guns up here. These are hotchkiss guns. They fired percussion show and the shell that imparted against the people. This was an antipersonnel type of weapon. The guns were trained on the camp, there were four of them. They could deliver about 20 rounds altogether per minute. So, in 1890, this was a pretty significant technology. Right up in the area above the village, you can see two rows of troops. These are troops b and k. The seventh calvary. They were brought down from up above as a reserve force when the indians began leading in this council area at their own whim, they were ordered to bring in their weapons and some of them did not come back and so the army put these two troops down to keep them in place, or leaving and going back to the camp to the teepees. The council area is where the shooting breaks out on december 29. Im curious how many of you have actually been to wounded knee. Wow. Pretty impressive. Im impressed. Every people has impressions about events that have shaped them and the lakota sioux are no exception, testimony of wounded knee as given by participants in the proceedings of december 29 of 1890 in the form of immediate and reminiscent statements constitutes important renderings with personal insights into what occurred to those who survived that date as well as to their family members, other relatives, friends from and to those who did not. Taken together, the accounts of the people signify how it deadly the action became as it intensified from the initial shooting into a defensive reaction by troops, climaxing in an unchecked and devastating slaughter of innocents. One hesitates to use the term bloodlust in explaining what happened at wounded knee, but did the tribesmen involved in particularly those noncombatant women, children, and elderly men who became circumstantially targeted after the violence erupted, the expression would assuredly connote a substantive and literal overtone. Regarding lakota oral history, it must be understood that by 1890, many of those people, following more than two decades of reservation living has become increasingly conversant in english through education as well as through daytoday contact with whites over their predecessors of the 1860s and 1870s in the wilds of dakota, wyoming, and montana. The competency that perpetuated their after. Furthermore, by their closer physical proximity to whites, their statements were more easily sought out and conveyed than before. As a result, as time passed from wounded knee, lakota survivor accounts of the event, while necessarily translated expressions, have provided a generally clear declarations replete with richer volume and content over regulations from the earlier days. Importantly, beyond heartfelt assertions, the evident redundancy regarding aspects of the event exemplifies the peoples honesty and further ensures the validity of the accounts. The following largely composite narrative based on sioux reminiscences to convey a measured assessment of their harrowing experiences at that place. Joseph clout, from Cheyenne River reservation described the initial shooting. It was just like a hailstorm with shots in all directions. In the confusion, come all we thought about was to get away, the morning was cloudy and damp and the smoke from the guns did not rise but settled right on us. From then on, nothing could be seen very plain. The soldiers were rushing around shooting all of us that they could see to shoot. High back was hit in the hand as he dashed blindly. In the combat, iron hail armed with only a knife sought to get a gun and rush the soldiers so closely that the man fired his car being right next to the warriors ear, momentarily deafening him. In the rising smoke, the indian yanked the gun away, stabbing the man who grabbed iron hand by the throat before the lakota knifed him repeatedly until he died and then took his gun and ran towards the ravine behind the camp. Iron hail was wounded before he got there, an injury that severely debilitated his right arm. He finally shot a soldier, received a flesh wound in the leg into the gulch. Others who broke through the soldiers raced with the women and children into the ravine, and then ran in either direction. Iron hail experienced several encounters with soldiers and other playing tribesmen as he headed west up the dry wash where he ultimately witnessed his own mother being killed. Soldiers on both sides of the ravine shot at her and killed her, he said. I saw lots of women and children lying along the ravine, some alive, and some dead. I told some young men to take courage and do all they could to defend the women. An awful fire was concentrated on them now and nothing could be seen for the smoke. In the bottom of the ravine, the bullets raise more dust than there was smoke so that they could not see one another. Horncloud recounted they made excavation in which to hide them. Women and children were killed together. One mother lay dead, he said, her breasts covered with blood and her little child was standing by her nursing. Alice ghost horse was a 13yearold girl from Cheyenne River. She remember the calvary man shooting at every lakota that was running and it did not matter if you were a child or a woman. They shot at you anywhere. We dived in like frightened rabbits. The gunfire was pretty heavy and people were hollering for their children and the children were crying everywhere. Her father went back to help the eldest but soon returned wounded in the leg. He took alices young brother and moved down the ravine, telling alice that her mother, he would return for them. Soon afterwards, my father came crawling back and said, they killed my son and started to cry. So, he cried a little bit. My father said, we should move to a better hiding place, but my mother objected again saying we should all die here together. She told me to stand up so i i did, but my father pulled me back down. They called to a deeper part of the ravine and then alices father left again to help others. More people took shelter in the ravine. Four of them died right there, but there was nothing that anybody could do. One man, who arrived pulled up me my father was killed instantly. And we all cried for little bit because the soldiers were still firing their rifles at anything that moved. Alice and her mother remained hidden in the brush in the deep recesses of the ravine until late afternoon. When the sounds of gunfire finally slackened. The wounded highback also made it to the ravine where he crawled beneath the bodies of other casualties seeking protection. Though he still took more bullets. Peter one skunk, struck in the head during the soldiers opening volley also made his way to the ravine and hid. He eventually caught a horse and broke free from the turmoil, but the mount was killed and one skunk played dead and was left alone by the troops. In time, he found another horse and got away. Elsewhere, as the action continued, some of those who headed west in the ravine found protection from the soldiers in the subordinate gulch area known as the pocket. They included horn cloud, several of his brothers and several cousins along with two old men, and woman, and her small son. One brother, william horncloud, was killed in the pocket. Several more received wounds and a brother named whitelance was badly injured but subsequently recovered. Iron hail said he killed at least five soldiers while in the pocket. When a hotchkiss gun was brought down, brought forward to fire directly at those who had found shelter there, he said. It became a storm of thunder and hail. There went up from these dying people, a medley of death songs that would make the hardest heart weep. The death song is expressive of their wish to die. It expresses that the singer is anxious to die, too. At this time, i am unable to do anything more and i took rest, telling my brothers to keep up courage. The canon were now pouring their shots and breaking down the banks which were giving protection. The soldiers were pretty close to the edge. These kept up the continual fire. Even if there was no more shooting, the smoke was so thick that the wounded could not live for it. It was suffocating. The hotchkiss had been shooting rapidly and one indian had gotten killed by it. His body was penetrated in the stomach by a shell which tore a hole through his body six inches in diameter. The man was insensible but breathed for an hour before he died. At the same time, a young woman was shot through between the shoulders. I heard a laugh and she was smiling while unconscious that she was wounded. The next moment, a young man was shot down right in front of this woman. When the man fell, his bow and arrows fell all around on the ground. Iron hail shortly regained his strength and moved farther up in the pocket. He found women and children all wounded in a dugout pit seeking shelter from the troopers shooting at them from above. In the same place, he recounted was a young woman with a pole in her hand and a black blanket on it. When she lifted it up, the soldiers would whistle and yell and pour volleys into it. Iron hail told the women he would fight for them, and he cared not if he died there. The infants were all killed now and he would like to die among the infants. He managed then to shoot and kill yet another soldier and to knock still one more from his horse. Iron hail stayed in the pocket for a time and as the sun went down, cautiously crept out and away while soldiers intermittently fired at him from distant points. Joseph horncloud had somehow escaped from the pocket and he related that many women and children ran west along the road where they became targets for nearby calvary men who killed some there. Others managed to traverse a nearby fence field where more were shot down. Horncloud moved fluidly through the area, collected numerous horses that he distributed to others to aid their escape. He then continued about fighting the troops in the area to the west. Iron hail eventually encountered several of the pine ridge oglalas and horses. And went with them and he soon met his brother who told him his father was also dead. Of 11 family members at wounded knee, horncloud and iron hail lost their mother, yellow leaf, and father, horned cloud, and two brothers, sherman and william. Iron hail lost his wife, killed at the scene and would lose his infant son, wet feet. He would die from illness contracted during the massacre. Iron hails cousin, pretty enemy, who lived with the family, also died there. Iron hail suffered two wounds, while another brother received four. Iron hail and one cloud proceeded west to appoint near the holy rosary Catholic Mission before heading north to join the stronghold people along white creek. When they arrived, those people were crying and singing death songs and shook hands with them. As night descended back at wounded knee, small knots of surviving lakotas made their way north. Other women participants included nelly knife. She was packing that morning when the men attended the council. All at once, i heard an awful noise. As the shots were fired, the women and children ran for a safe place to hide. As i ran, i saw many people were already killed. I was running with a young girl named brown hair horse but she got shot. I passed the wife of one skunk who was also wounded and screaming. I could not help her as the bullets were flying thick and i wanted to get to a safe place. After the firing stopped, i returned to see if i could find any of my people. My mother in law, my sister in law, and many brothers were dead. My father in law, little bull, was alive but his leg was broken. Likewise, after the gunfire opened, mrs. Rough feather saw all of the people on the ground bleeding. In sheer terror, she ran for safety with the others to the ravine south of the camp. Following them up the gulch. Bullets flew all around us. I was not hit one time. My father, my mother, my grandfather, my older and younger brother were all killed. My son, who was two years old, was shot in the mouth and that later caused his death. By their individual and family perspectives, the lakota record dramatically personalizes what happened while imparting important knowledge on how the people reacted, as well as what and how they endured. The accounts further offer rich augmentation and often differing conclusions to the records contained in government documents. More than anything, they give strength and broader dimension and provide empathetic value of what they experienced. They cover all aspects. The outbreak of shooting, the killing on the planes. The opening of the hotchkiss guns, and the fighting in the pocket. To the departure of soldiers from the field, followed by the exodus of survivors. Of the 370 lakota people arrested by major whitside east of porky pine butte and escorted to wounded knee. As many as 160 died violently there or elsewhere from wounds received. Within days, 146 bodies were gathered and hastily interred. Family members retrieved others for burial elsewhere. Shortly thereafter, 14 more bodies including those coming from wounds of the Episcopal Church in pine ridge come aware they were taken. Measured estimates have raised the figure to at least 200. Efforts to chronicle the names and exact numbers of fatalities have proceeded over the decades since. Beyond the figure and well considered approximations, the precise number of lakota dead at wounded knee has been impossible to determine and will likely remain unknown. Thank you very much. [applause] plus we have time for questions and i would direct people to use the microphone. How did this start . Who fired the first shot . All of the evidence ive seen and i will tie this into the question of premeditation because a lot of things have come out saying that it was all premeditated. It was not premeditated. There are a lot of documents, telegrams in fact, most notably, about bringing trains to gordon, nebraska and the plan was to remove these socalled difficult indians from the scene, to get them out of there. They want to get the leaders out of their and they want to get any of their followers out of there. The plan underway was to get the trains up to gordon and then following the disarmament at wounded knee, forsyth would go back to pine ridge where there were other indians coming in from a place called the stronghold. He was needed there. Major whitside would march the other people down to gordon, nebraska. They would be put aboard a train and they would be taken safe and away altogether. As for the outbreak of the shooting, it appears that the first shot, and this comes from both army sources at the time as well as some lakota remembrances that there was a single shot that broke out and it seems to have been a young man, a young lakota man. Some sources name his as blackfox. This is a fairly common name. There was a medicine man named blackfox who was also involved in there. This young man was apparently deaf. There was a lot of action going on. Apparently there were a couple of sergeants, possibly one sergeant, some say to, struggled to get this arm away from this young man. He apparently didnt understand what was going on and the shot went off and once that shot went off, that triggered everything. Finally, there was a huge explosion of gunfire as the lakotas fired at the soldiers, only at about 25 feet and the soldiers fired back at the lakotas at the same time. Then, they killed many of the socalled warriors, they were warriors, in the council area. Those who survived tried to break through the soldiers. That was their only salvation at that point. But, when the indians fired that those troops, once they killed about 30 soldiers, or was it once those men fell, their bullets kept going into the camp. The first casualties among noncombatants appeared to have been from the indians themselves, which is compounding the tragedy. I encourage you to read the detailed account, in the book, american carnage. Where did you find these accounts and where can they be found today . It is heavily footnoted with very thorough footnotes. You can get the accounts there. Many of them are quoted at length. They should be relatively easy to get that way. But, they came from a multitude of sources, which i cannot rattle off to you immediately. Yes . We had the opportunity to go to the stronghold, it is considered holy ground by those people. Can you tell us a little bit about the winter that they experienced following the massacre and the survivors . Well, you mean the winter, following wounded knee . The balance of the winter . Well, it has been something of a mild winter of that point, in fact, the photos that you see of the deadline in snow, the snow came a day or so after the massacre. So, a lot of the photographers that came out and took pictures of the dead people, they were under snow and were flipped over. That is why, if any of you have seen these photos, they are in very grotesque positions. That is because they were lying face down and were flipped over. But, the weather intensified. It became a much more powerful winter than it had been up to that point. And, it is quite possible that the troops never, on to the reservation, the ghost dance, and many people projected that just leave them alone and they will just die out because it just gets so cold up there in the winter, that probably nothing will happen. How long did the massacre last . Several days . No, it was the first part of it, the fight in the counsel circle and breaking through the people into the ravine and starting up the ravine. This lasted about half an hour. Then, a lot of people dont realize that the guns could not fire down into where the fighting was going on while the troops were down there. So, they had to wait and one of the accounts that i had was that of an artillery man up on the hill. This is as far as i know has not been used before. He describes the view from his perspective. He was saying the that we are waiting there, holding the mechanism in hand to begin firing but they couldnt fire because they were waiting for that to clear out. Once they did, they leveled their guns towards the cap and really decimated the camp itself and anything that was alive. There was one account of a wagon, they used farm wagons. There was a farm wagon, a family trying to get through the ravine on to the other side. And exploding projectile hit that and blew it up and somebody said it was just like a bunch of rags had gone up. It killed everybody except one baby or toddler, i believe. I know today that the medal of honor requires a citation. And i belive there were 20 awarded that day . Yes. Do you know what the explanation was for the actions . Theres a section in the book dealing with the medals of honor and the issuing of the medals of honor and the controversy involved. At the time, according to the 1889 army regulations, it was officers and men would get a medal of honor. For distinguished service, that is all it said. So, it was not as strict as it is today and it requires one to put their life on the line. In those days, it did not happen. It is been very controversial. I know that many lakotas resent the fact that it was like adding insult to injury to award men medals of honor. At the time there was no distinguished Service Cross or a purple heart for that matter. Those did not come on until later in the 20th century. So, at the time, officers could justify writing recommendations for these medals. Two officers did initially and i remember reading an editorial in the Junction City republican newspaper right afterwards. The editor was complaining that more officers only two officers had bothered to put their men in and the others ought to get off of their off and get to work and exert a little work. Probably it would be easier to repeal the medals that this was a Unit Citation rather than to specific individuals as the medal of honors are given. Were there any mutilation of the bodies . Scalping . I have heard there was a scalping and it might be mentioned in the book someplace. There was not a lot of that. Many of the wounded indians in fact were taken into pine ridge along with the soldiers and the director of the Episcopal Church offered the church a chance as a hospital. All of the women and children were placed in there and stayed in there for several weeks. Yes . Good afternoon, sir. I have done some research in this area for a masters degree. Ive borrowed heavily from your bibliography and dr. Hendersons. I appreciate the work you have done. I am curious, how did you evaluate the sources between the Army Official records compared to the lakota records and the lakota accounts . Did you see a lot of inaccuracies or glaring inconsistencies . There are certainly inaccuracies in many of these as im sure that you are aware of. But, usually other than accounts of people that were there, stating what happened, those are a little difficult as to determine credibility. If you get more than one source that says will suggest the same thing like the young man with the gun that i was talking about, and i had heard that but i did find several sources that referenced that. Incidentally, i think i used her your masters thesis. Are you colonel russell . No, sir. [laughter] it was good, even if you didnt do it. [laughter] concerning the seventh calvary personnel, is there any idea how many men participated in a little big horn campaign . Yes, it is in the book. In te bighorn campaign . Yes. As a matter of fact, it was in the book. I was interested in finding that out myself. It seems to me i want to say off the top of my head now three 11 enlisted men. I am kind of guessing. I think that is right. But it is in the book, i promise you. [laughter] i guess i will have to read the book. Thank you, gerry, for that presentation and thank you for jerry, k thank you, for the presentation and thank you for this book. Can we thank him one more time . [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2014] youre watching American History tv. All weekend, every weekend on cspan 3. To join the conversation, like us on facebook at cspan history. Each week, American History tv sits in on a lecture with one of the Nations College professors. You can watch the lecture every saturday evening at 8 00 p. M. And midnight eastern. Next, university of michigan history of medicine professor dr. Joel howell talks about u. S. Cold war radiation experiments conducted by the defense