Transcripts For CSPAN2 Tonight From Washington 20110430

presents "after words," an hour long program with authors being interviewed by guest hosts. hurricane carter and worked for the innocence since his 1985 release and talks with veteran journalist, juan williams. ♪ >> host: rubin carter, thank you for joining us on this wonderful day. how old are you nowing? >> guest: 74 years and that's doctor. one from law school in 2003 and one from york university in 2005, so it's dr. rubin carter. >> host: both in autotrail ya? >> guest: no, no. >> host: oh, york is in canada. >> guest: yes. >> your book is called "eye of the hurricane" with a forward by nelson mandela. >> guest: correct. >> host: you say here my main purpose in writing this book is to share with you i have discovered the truth. >> guest: to be the truth. >> host: yeah, but the love of truth is the spirit of man given where i was and for how long i was there -- this is incredible -- i have no business at all being here now. >> guest: that's absolutely correct. >> host: you say you were in jail 40-something years. what do you mean by that? >> guest: well, the fact that we are born into a prison actually, when we are born, we are born perfect beings, that means complete with all of our possibilities in tact, but we are also born into a world of sleeping people, the level of unconscious human insanity where hate and wars and death and destruction and inequality reigns supreme, so we are actually born into a prison. i was in that prison for the first 40 years of my life until i was able to wake up and get out of that prison and realize who i really am. >> host: let's come to who you are in a second, but for the viewer's sake let's say you were incarcerating in prison for 20 years. >> guest: 1966 to 1985. >> host: 66-85. >> guest: that's correct. >> host: charges of murdering three and injurying one in a bar. >> guest: to be accused of murder is bad enough, but accused of being a racist murder is doubly bad. that's what i was accused of being, a triple racist murder. >> host: why racist? >> guest: because all white people were killed. >> host: it was a charge you targeted them because of their race? >> guest: because of their race because a black bartender was killed by a white man another part that night and thought it was a racially inspired motive. realize at those times in 1966, early 60s when the country was still segregated, you know, when black folks weren't allowed to eat in restaurants or go to school or ride on certain busses or drink out of the water fountain or even have equal voting rights at the time, and that was going on in the country at that time, and it was a terrible thing, so that's what i was accused of being, a triple racist murder. >> host: and in the book you write about growing up in a household that really was violent and difficult, facing your father across the living room with a shotgun? >> guest: yeah, my family life was not ninety. the violence was outside of family life, but you have to realize in may, this may i will be 74 years old, and so my mother and father come from a generation where they thought that if you -- if a child put his hands on his parents or even threatened parents, since they brought you into the world, they will take you out of this world as well. that was the type of society that i grew up in. >> host: describe to the people who are watching whom might want to read the book, why you would be facing your father with a shotgun, and he with a shotgun facing you? >> guest: well, i was a very angry young man at the time. i confronted my brother james who was a highly successful academic. i mean, he was going to harvard, he was one of the youngest to graduate from harvard university with a ph.d., later became the superintendent of schools in boston, and i was in and out of reformatory schools during my youth, you know, so my father had to sort of choose between which one he's going to support, and i confronted my brother because when i came home from the military in 1956, i heard that my brother was hanging out with homosexuals that we had known as children growing up. when we were children, all of these folks dressed up on halloween as women, and they looked better than the women on the streets, you know? now he was on vacation from harvard university, and they were doing the same thing, so i confronted my brother about that, and we started to fight, and, of course, i beat him up, and that's when my father got -- that's when my father got involved in this, and my father jumped me because of that, and i pushed my father away and said don't put your hands on me, that i would allow no one to put their hands on me in anger anymore, so my father ran and got his shotgun, and i ran and got mine. this happened to marvin gay and his father and that's where his father shot him. >> host: killed him. >> guest: killed him. if not for my mother, my father would have killed me as well. >> host: your mother intervened? >> guest: absolutely, she said get away. >> host: you described yourself as technically being in jail for 20 years, 66-85, but the violence and the whole world of hatred that you described, you say that's been a jail for you for 40-plus years until you discovered yourself. >> guest: o', yeah. >> host: this is an interesting moment because you say you're going to be 74 years old. >> guest: yes. >> host: you've been in jail, but you write you were a prize fighter, a solder, a convict, a jailhouse lawyer at one point, and says you were executive director of a group that was called association and defense of the wrongly convicted at one point, today, yeah ceo of the innocence international group. >> guest: yes. >> host: but it says if i had to choose an epitaph to be chosen on my tombstone, it would simply read, he was just enough. this came because somebody in a high school audience, speaking to the students, asked you what you wanted, and now your a man, bob diel lain wrote a about -- dylan wrote a song about you and nelson mandela wrote your forward, and i know he loves boxing, and then he talks about someone like him who was in jail, and has come out of it, so here's nelson mandela, bob dylan, even tony bennet you say, and now it's time for you to speak about yourself, and you say for your epitaph, it should be he was just enough to have the courage to stand up for his convictions no matter what problems his actions caused him. he was just enough to perform a mere call of the universal prison of sleep to regain humanity in living hell. he was just enough. just enough. when people hear this just enough, i'm sure they're going to be thinking to themselves, well, just enough to get off or just enough to escape or survive, why not to make something older? >> guest: universally, we are all just enough. that's what that means. we are all universally just enough. we are born with everything that we need to wake up and to become conscious. that is just enough. >> host: you define conscious in the book as loving the world. >> guest: yeah, well, the love, the love of truth is actually in the spirit of man. the love of truth is the spirit of man, and if you know the truth, the truth is that we are miraculous human beings, miraculous creatures with everything already within us to do whatever it is we can possibly do on this earth, whatever we can believe in and conceive in our minds, we can do it, we can do it, but you got to wake up, and in order to wake up, you have to defeat that monster that is bogging that treasure within us which is the monster of false personality guarding the exits of who we really are. you see, when we are born, we are born into families -- we had nothing to do with it. we had nothing to do with the parents we were born to or what their financial situation is or what their religion was. we have nothing to do with that, but we take those things on. we take those things on ourselves, and then we begin to live life like everybody else, but the fact that i went to prison and was able to be taken out of the herd and was able to look and see what the herd of people of humanity is doing and what i was doing while i was running with that herd of humanity, gave me the opportunity to wake up and say, oh, i'm not that. i'm something far different than that. you know, when -- >> host: you said this happened to you in jail. >> guest: yeah. >> host: that's when you woke up. >> guest: yeah. >> host: so you literally had to go to jail to wake up. >> guest: to wake up. >> host: you described your brother as extremely successful in the same family situation, but in that family situation there was a lot of hate, anger, and you said, you know, i mean, you had a lot of just anxiety. >> guest: loutly. first of all, for the first 18 months of my live, first 18 years of my life, i couldn't talk. >> host: you stuttered. >> guest: i stuttered very, very, very badly, and people laughed at you. people laughed at me because of that. i mean, it wasn't my fault that i stuttered. my father stuttered and grandfather stuttered and probably my great grandfather. it was her red tear, but -- her redty at the time. why couldn't i? i didn't know. i felt stupid. when people made fun of me, the only canaled they heard in reply is the sound of my fist whistling through the air. if you're going to attack everybody any time they laugh of at you, you better know how to fight. i learned how to fight. i could fight. if i couldn't do anything else, i could fight, you know what i mean? that's the reason i went through that. >> host: now, this kind of anger that you had in you led you into first the military, and then -- >> guest: but the anger also came from my -- the anger came from the fact that in this country at that time, the -- the law of the land, the 1856 dred scott decision ruled that black people, as they called us and as we call ourselves today, were only three-fifths of the human being, and we had no rights that a white person had with respect or oh base. that was the society i grew up in, and therefore, i was very angry about that. you know, about people thinking based upon the color of my skin that i -- that i had no right or anything else that anybody has to respect. >> host: you graduated from high school? >> guest: no, i didn't. dropped out in the 8th grade. >> host: then you went into the military? >> guest: then i went into the military. >> host: when you were out of the military, how did you get into boxing? >> guest: when i got out of the military, i was still angry, and i committed a crime. i did the most die baht kl thing in my life i had ever done. i snatched a woman's pocketbook, and i was sent to prison for that, the state prison, and when i was in prison for that, i said, well, aisle thought coming back here anymore. i'm going to be -- i'm going to use my talent, my fighting ability in order to make a living, so for those five years that i was in prison, i trained every day. i fought every single day. i knew that i had committed a crime, and i knew that that's where i should be, in prison. i accepted that, and so i worked and struggled in prison in order to become a good prize fighter, so when i got out of prison in 1961, i immediately went into professional prize fighting, and as, you know, if you want to become a marquee athlete or a marquee boxer, you have to build an image, you know what i mean? what was going on in this country at that time, i built an image of defiance. my -- my hero in boxing was jack johnson, you know, one of the first black heavy weight champions in the world who were a bald head, so i shaved my head and grew a full man's shoe, all images of defiance, so that's why i became the hurricane, you know what i mean? >> host: the hurricane, where did that come from? >> guest: a fight promoter in jersey city, new jersey when i was still fighting preliminary fights and getting rid of people real quickly, knocking them out in one or two rounds and things, and he dubbed me the hurricane. i didn't like that name. i didn't like that name at all. there was a hurricane before me. a hurricane jackson who was not able to break an egg actually, you know what i mean? he was a very busy fighter and that's why he was named the hurricane. when he dubbed me the hurricane, i did not like that, but that was the name that has stuck with me to have very day. >> host: during that same time, there's a young muhammad ali coming on. >> guest: right. that's when we got into it because the state of new york was trying to decide whether they were going to abolish boxing in the state of new york, and mahammad was asked to testify in front of a committee, and i was asked to testify as a former convict who needed boxing in order to make a living, and so we were standing outside the senate chamber in albany, and a little young boy asked for clay's autograph. his image was that of a dr. dandy, a black walking stick, and he knocked the paper out of that young child's hand, and i told cassius, you're a punk, you're a big punk, nothing but a punk. from that moment on, cassius and i didn't get along. we tried to his -- he tried to get his stable mates to whoop me. one was knocked out in madison square garden, another was jimmy who became the heavy weight champion of the world, but this was a thing between cassius clay and the hurricane, two personalities clashing together, but after that, when muhammad became muhammad, he was muhammad. he would do anything i asked him to do. i mean, that was because he refused to go to vietnam or refused to go into the military, so they gave him a five year sentence for that which eventually was done away with, so that was -- i don't know, but -- >> host: it led you to the bond, but i noticed you mention in your book that the person that helped you with your stuttering was a man who then gave you an islamic name, and that's your name? >> guest: no, no. >> host: what was the name he gave you? >> guest: asal abu. >> host: you were never known as that in the ring? >> guest: no. >> host: you connect that name islam, with stuttering. >> guest: i do. he stumbled upon me when we were getting ready to jump out of airplanes in the military, and rather than just stumbling away, this person stopped and made me realize that i had a problem, that my inability to talk and my feelings of frustration and sense of low self-esteem were linked, so he engaged my entire being, and in many respects, he became my teacher, my career counselor. the first thing he did to me was to help me understand myself, put my house back in order. he enrolled me in one of the first dail carnegie -- dale carnegie courses given in germany. he helped me to channel my energies and positive directions, introduced me to boxing as a discipline and as a career rather than simply as a way to vent my pinned up anger and frustration, so any kind of autobiography or any kind of book that deals with my life would not be complete without mentioning him. >> host: now, this moment then, you never become the champion of the world, but you are always the number one contender. >> guest: yes. >> host: for the middle weight crowd. then comes the episode in new jersey where you are charged and convicted with murdering three and wounding one. >> guest: that's correct. >> host: you go to jail. >> guest: that's correct. >> host: comes support from the likes of bob dylan and ali to get you out. >> guest: yes. understand this. when i went on trial in 1966-67, we were tried with the death penalty during the years in america when all of the major cities in this country were on fire, when africans in america are black people, and standing up against this institutionalize hatred demanding equal justice, opportunity, equal jobs, voting rights, equal housing, and all of those -- and equal respect. you know, that was the -- that was the society that i grew up in at that time, and when i went on trial, i went on trial with an all white jury. now, if that all white jury thought for one second that john and i had murdered those people, they would have burped us to -- burned us to a baking rod, but the only evidence that even suggested that we had anything to do with such a thing was two convicts who were in the area that night breaking into a factory and robbing the dead bodies in this bar and grill, and this one person who was the -- supposed to be the lookout, ran out of cigarettes and walked up to the bar and grill, a block away, and as he was walking up to the bar and grill, he said that he saw me and john artis coming around the corner laughing, me carrying a shotgun, and john carrying a pistol. he said he turned around and ran away, and we couldn't catch him. now, this was a limit -- little fat boy. >> host: that was the base sis of the conviction? >> guest: the whole conviction, and the reason why an all white jury said, no, that can't be so, i mean -- >> host: obviously they convicted you. tell me about it being overturned. >> guest: he was overturned because of the same thing. the new jersey state supreme court heard cases where the police promised these convicts $10,000 to stop their lives in court as well as not convicting them for robbing the dead bodies in this bar as well as one of them was the motel bandit who was robbing motels up and down the coast of new jersey, and would have gotten 90 years in prison. that was the reason why these two people testified and for no other reason. there was no evidence, no eyewitness evidence, no weapons, none of that was ever found. the only thing that brought us to court was these two jailhouse guys. >> host: after you were relesioned, you went on to a very successful boxing career, but moved to canada, a country without the death penalty. >> guest: i refuse to live in a country with the death penalty because i had narrowly escaped it myself. if that jury felt i had anything to do with the crime -- >> host: now, when you think about this, you continued your boxes career in the united states. >> guest: no, no, no, no. after i got out of prison this time, no, there was no more boxing for me. as i got out of prison this time, i was 49 years old. >> host: back in the 60s. >> guest: that's what i'm talking about in 1961. >> host: no, no, no. you went to prison in 66. so you were boxes in the united states until that time. then you got out and said no more boxes and no more to the united states. >> guest: that's correct. >> host: okay, now we're on the same path. now, when you got out, you got involved in first and foremost this group trying to establish innocence of people, the association of people of the wrongly convicted, executive director there for 1 years? >> guest: 13 years. >> host: now you run innocence international. you said anybody involved in prosecuting someone who's innocent should themselves be put in jail. >> guest: that slowsly correct. you know, the thing that interests me the most is if you're not a lawyer or you have not gone to school t study the law, then when it comes to the criminal justice system, you are brain dead. you don't understand a thing that is going on in that courtroom because in that courtroom, it -- a courtroom is not there to demonstrate the truth. the courtroom is not there to milk out justice. a courtroom is not there for those things. a courtroom is there for lawyers to win or lose, to be successful. that's what a courtroom is all about, no matter even if the defendant or the general public don't understand that. >> host: well, you say here it's to whitewash things. >> guest: absolutely. >> host: whitewash what? >> guest: to whitewash themselves. see, a lawyer is a professional liar. you know, based on what side of the story you happen to be coming down on, that's what courtrooms are really all about. it's not about truth. it's not about justice. it's not about those things. it's about success. successful police officers are promoted. successful prosecutor attorneys are junk kyes. a successful judge goes to a higher court, even the united states supreme court, a successful judge in our system of jurisprudence is a careful judge, and not necessarily a just or wise one, but a judge who makes sure he's really rehearsed on appeals. that's what a courtroom is all about. >> host: and when you are in there saying this is about a whitewash, do you think that there is justice in the united states? >> guest: sometimes there's justice. sometime if you got a good lawyer, sometimes if you got a decent judge, and there are good lairs and decent judges, but not most of the people. it's a job. it's a job for people. >> host: you think you got unfairly imprisoned by this whitewash system? >> guest: oh, absolutely. there's no doubt about it. >> host: you ever met a guilty man? >> guest: oh, yeah. i spent 20 years in prison with guilty people who have done the most horrible things. oh, yeah. there are guilty people. there's no question about that, but there are also innocent people, and i say to you, sir, that innocence -- there is no place for innocence in a prison, no place for innocence because if you proclaim your innocence in prison, it means there's no chance for parole, work release, none of those things can tab place if you -- take place if you continue to proclaim your innocent. in fact, the murder who confessed in the cell next to you will go home before you do because he has admitted his guilt, and you are still maintaining innocence, so i say that in the system like the united states that has more people in prison than any other country in the world, there must be a place for innocence in prison, must be a place. we have two cases right now that innocence is the national -- supported. one case is david macomb line up in new york state. as a 16-year-old teenager, he's been in prison for a crime he did not commit. there's not a shred of evidence, no eyewitnesses, no forensic evidence, or anything like that that would in any way place him near this crime, and yet, we have evidence of other people having done that crime. we have forensic evidence, dna ed of other people. >> host: why can't you get him out? >> guest: because the judge does not wish to overturn the decision. that's why. the prosecutors hold on to this conviction. that's why. you see, murder convictions is fueled in the grease of the criminal justice system, convictions, and that's why we can't get these people out. we have two canadian citizens in washington state right now. they have teenagers who were tricked by the royal canadian mountain police into false confessions. when dna came into existence, that cleared the way for a whole lot of people, you know? so now, discouraging the criminal justice system are false confessions. young teenagers confessing to professional inter gators who don't stand a chance. >> host: the teenagers? >> guest: yeah. >> host: in fact, when you left the association in defense of the wrongly convicted, it was over a dispute with your board with regard to a canadian prosecutor who was being promoted to be a judge, and you thought she was involved in a wrongful conviction? >> guest: that's right. the association of the wrongly convicted was brought into existence because of the depal case. he was convicted of killing a young 9-year-old girl and dna evidence completely exonerated him, but he went to trial two times, two times because this one prosecutor was so convinced that he was guilty. at his first trial -- >> host: in canada, you can be tried twice on the same crime. >> guest: that was a red flag for me because i was looking at double jeopardy. his first trial, he was acquitted by a jury, but because this prosecutor thought he was guilty and because they have limitations, she appealed to the supreme court of canada and the supreme court overturned the acquittal, and people were put back on trial again. on the second trial, this prosecutor used jailhouse images, the falsification of evidence, and all those things in order to get a conviction, and it got that conviction, and then dna evidence cleared him, and then -- and i sat up many nights with depal's family, the mother, the father, the sisters crying with them trying to neutralize their pain and suffering, and then when you turn around and there's the same prosecutor elevated to the on ontario -- >> host: he was convicted? >> guest: he was convicted the second time. >> host: that's what i'm saying. >> guest: based on perjury. >> host: he was convicted, but you wanted to stop this prosecutor from becoming a judge, but the board disagreed with you. >> guest: that forced me to resign. anyone who knowingly convict an innocent person of a crime that they did not commit should be convicted of a crime themselves i mean, because what is it to convict an innocent person? it's torture, forcible con findment, and in the case of capital punishment, conspiracy to commit murder. the family almost went bankrupt. >> host: he was convicted. >> guest: based upon erroneous testimony. >> host: in your opinion? >> guest: no, no, in the court's opinion. not my opinion, the court's opinion because we had inquiries. >> host: he's still in jail; right? >> guest: no, he's been released a long time ago because dna evidence completely exonerated him. >> host: you tried to stop her from becoming a judge given that outcome? >> guest: i knew i couldn't stop her from becoming a judge, but because our very existence was preed at a timed upon her, i wanted to protest. i didn't realize at the time that the board of 20 consisted of 15 lawyers. you know, when we started, the board consisted of ordinary people, housewives, teachers, people outside the community, you know, the legal community, but over the years, because we were so successful in getting people out of prison, the board became three quart lawyers. >> host: they were looking out for their fellow lawyers? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: this is the legal system really being about successful lawyers, successful judges, successful prosecutors just as you said arguing their side of the case, not about truth or justice, just opinion? >> guest: absolutely correct. >> host: now, let me ask you, why are you wearing a hat today? >> guest: well, you know, i was in the military, and whether you're in the military or the internal security forces, you should always be undercover when you are armed, and i'm always armed. i'm armed with the love of truth, so i always wear a hat. i'm from the old school where we used to dress from top to bottom, not just halfway. i mean, i come from a family of a preacher, a lot of preachers, and they used to dress, and my father used to dress very well, and so i got that from my family, so i dress very well too, so i wear a hat because i'm undercover all the time. >> host: now, you in the book it's mentioned that at the 2000 world reconciliation day in australia, you're there with nelson mandela and it was quite a celebration between the two of you because the two of you, two people who love boxing, two former prisoners, people who spent a good time in jail, you said to each other, we're here, we made it. we made it. >> guest: that's what he said to me. i was in south africa in 1965, before most folks even understood that south africa even existed. >> host: before jail? >> guest: before jail during my prize fighting years, and nelson had just gone to robert island in 1964, and he was per per -- he was in south africa and you couldn't even see his picture or speak his name, you know? my guide at that time was a young 16-year-old boy called steven beco who used to bring me to the meetings and i listened to what they were saying, and i felt quite at home because the same thing going on there was the same thing going on in the united states. i felt at home. i knew about nelson at that time, and so when we met in 2000 in australia, we met face to face. we just cracked up. we just laughed and laughed. that's when we said we're here, man. we made it. we're here. i mean, that was a wonderful thing. >> host: you know, nelson mandela writes in the forward to your book, he writes here that in a way, rubin's spirit was dead. the book you wrote before this one, more than 30 years ago that you wrote this rubin carter, that you described the effects on yourself of racism, brutality of the american prison system, and, of course, the united states has more prisoners than any other developed country in the world. >> guest: correct. >> host: but people say there's a lot of violence, a lot of crime perpetrated by those who are captured, tried, convicted, and imprisoned in this country. >> guest: oh, yeah. there's no question about that because that's what prison does. prisons -- the only thing prison does for anybody is teach you how to survive in prison. it doesn't teach you how to survive outside of prison. prison is the lowest level of human existence that a human being can exist on without being dead. you know what i neon? there is no -- in prison -- it's hate, violence, bitterness. that's all prison is about, and, you know, i think that united states being the most powerful country in the world, but the most, the richest country in the world, i think we ought to aspire to be like the netherlands. i was there, and norway closed down all of there prisons because they didn't have enough criminals to fill them. i think we should aspire to that rather than privatizing prisons where it means x amount of dollars because when you start talking about dollars, justice, truth, and goodness goes out the window because we're talking about money, success. >> host: don't you think there's a large criminal class in our country? >> guest: i think those people who are considered to be criminals have been -- no, i don't think there's a large criminal class in our society. i think there's a large class of people who have been done ill, who have been done wrong in our society? people are not criminal, but basically decent. if you treat people decently, people will act decently. >> host: right, but what about people who have not been treated decently, people from broken homes, dropped out of school, disproportioned people come from single parent families, didn't complete school, have a history of violence in their families, and often times get involved in criminal activity. >> guest: that's true, but that's because of the system they're born into. if you're born into a system where there's bombed out buildings, where there is a family living on welfare, and if you're born into that, that's what you're going to grow up with, but if you're born into a society where people respect one another, where people just look at each other and say, hey, man, you're another human being. you're my brother. you're my family. we're talking about the human family, and not just the nuclear family. the human family. >> host: but they are not, you're saying? >> guest: i said if we had -- >> host: but they're not. >> guest: they're not. >> host: how do you address that we're approaching 60% of people in the prisons are black and his panic? >> guest: the drug lords, the rockefeller drug wars in the 1970s, people sent to jail. >> host: just talking about murder and robbery, this portioned amount is committed by people of color. >> guest: this is a violence society, my brother. this is a violence society, and all of the people that get along in this society, they feel like they must also be violent. everybody's got a gun, and everybody's high or for some kind of drug. when you have drugs and guns together, there's going to be murders, violence, and that's what we have. >> host: more than white people? >> guest: well, it's not necessarily the color. >> host: i'm saying in terms of the numbers about who is in the jails -- >> guest: yeah, you see -- when i went to prison in 1956, -- >> host: that's when you stole the purse? >> guest: that's when i stole the port. the american prison system reflected the general population. if, for example, italians or irish were a certain percentage of the population, that's the percentage of italians or irish people you find in prison, so therefore, all of the prisons were white. the vast majority of the prisons were white because black folks were only 13% of the population, so we caught hell in prison because there was no black guards in prison, you know? a prison served shep perdz pie on monday and irish stew on tuesday, you know? they dealt with the white population, and the black folk caught hell, but in the 1950s when africans in america began to stand up against segregation, began to stand up against not being able to eat in restaurants, became, you know, we couldn't stand up at lunch counters, they began allowing the white relations to be assimilated back into society and filled the prison up with black folks. you have to realize the strategy at that time. the strategy at that time was get all these black folks down here in the south you know specifically, and sit in. if they put us in jail, so what? we'll fill the jails up. this society said, okay, if you want to fill the jails up, that's what we'll do, and they started locking black folks up and letting the white folks out. >> host: you think it's a racist conspiracy? >> guest: it was, it was then. >> host: what about today? >> guest: well, people today don't know about yesterday. >> host: i'm asking you about today, today when we see 60% of that prison population made up of people, black and his panic, why is it so much crime occurs in the community? it's not directed in your case, the charges you engaged in a racist murder of three whites in that bar in new jersey, but think about the amount of black and black crimes, the amount of brown and brown crimes, the drive-by shootings, young black men involved in this lifestyle, this criminalization, it affects the allture now, the kids walk around with the participants hanging off and looks like they just got out of jail, and in some cases people talk about going to jail as a right of passage for young blacks. it's tragic. >> guest: it is tragic. >> host: here you are, been through the experience, and you say you have, in fact, fled of jail of preconceptions in your mind to find your spirit and truth, but what do you say to the young men who are simply like on a, you know -- >> guest: a collision course. >> host: looks like they're on a mass marketing line in terms of the culture, behavior, dropping out, right into the prison cell. >> guest: well, you know, that was malcolm-x was one of my best friends and he talked about that. he said if ever another holocaust could take place anywhere in the world, it could only take place in the united states of america. you know? he said because look at the prison system today, 60% of the prison is black. why don't you think that more people of color could be ronded up, put in holding cells, then the prisons, and then, in fact, eliminated? who would have posed the united states? the united states already opted out of the geneva convention and got out of the world court. who would have posed the united states? that was wop of the tragedies -- one of the tragedies that we need to address. >> host: wait, this is what malcolm said back in the early 60s? >> guest: back in the early 60 coming into fruition today. >> host: why are you saying that? nobody says they should kill the people in prison like the holocaust? >> guest: no, no, it's true. nobody's saying that, but one day they will say what should we do with this undeveloped mass black humanity who live in the ghettos, who live in the cities who are the consumers of everything and the producers of nothing? what are we going to do with these people? down in new orleans after katrina took place, one of the generals down there said that we're going to take back this city after his soldiers shot four desperate people. somebody's going to ask us questions. what are we going to do with this massive black humanity that fills the prisons up. >> host: why is it that you would not focus on individual responsibility? you talk about individual speedometer -- responsibility in your own life, fighting your own demons, overcoming stuttering, about the ability to discover who you are in truth, to discover drsh -- you said you enjoyed moment to moment. >> guest: life from moment to moment. >> host: okay, why are you then talking about this larger as if some white racist is out there sticking all these black people in jail? >> guest: it's never been individual white races in georgia, alabama, mississippi, it's always been the government. >> host: you think barak obama and the u.s. government. >> guest: i didn't say a thing about barak obama. >> host: he's the head of the u.s. government. >> guest: no, no, no, don't put that on me, brother. >> host: what are you saying? if you say the government puts the bhak people there, they are innocent? > guest: you're talking about now. i'm talking about then. >> host: let's talk now. why are young black people in jail? >> guest: i can't tell you that. i don't live in the country. i don't know much about going on in this country. i got out of this country. i live in canada where people have a different history, and therefore, you know, different people, but i still understand what's going on in this country. i will not say anything like that, you know? i will not do that. i say that the power and the glory of human beings are within the individual, not within the collective. >> host: so what's your message to the individuals? >> guest: only the individual creates and the collective destroy. >> host: okay, what's your message then to the individuals? it doesn't sound like you want to say, oh, blame the white man, blame the structure, or blame the government. what are you saying? >> guest: i'm saying wake up. >> host: as an individual? >> guest: as an individual. there's an old story that i was told many years ago about this fat man in the village who happened to be -- who happened to fall asleep one night while shelling peas, and the hut mysteriously caught on fire and the village people tried to save the sleeping man before the house burned, but they couldn't do it because the house was too small and man too big to move. the village wise man saw them saving the man. he yelled wake him up, and he'll save himself. we have to wake up individually in order to save ourselves. wake up. >> host: so it's individual responsibility. >> guest: that's all we can do, individually. >> host: that's what you say to the young people, here you are at 74 being through all you been through, the message of the book is about the individual waking up? >> guest: yes it is. it's about the individual, not the collective at all. the collective human behavior cannot be conscious. it just can't be conscious, and there will always be violence and wars and people struggling against one another. the power and the glory exists within the individual. i found out in prison that when the only thing that we can change in this entire world is ourselves. we can't change another single thing. we can't change our mother. we can't change our fathers of. we can't change our wives, our husband, or our children. we can't change our ancestors. we can't change the government, but we do have the possibility of changing ourselves. the miracles that i discovered in prison is that when you change, the world around you also changes. it is, in fact, the only way the world can change. that's what i -- that's my message there is change. you can change. >> host: it's interesting in the book, you talk about a story of being in an elevator and one of the kids smoke dope in the elevator and you say, hey, what are you doing? you'll get in trouble. the kid says shut the blank up, get lost, and you tell the kids something smart-mouthed about being their daddy. >> guest: well, the kid, when he started telling me who do you think you are, old man? you know, i looked at the young boy for the first time. he couldn't have been many more than 16 years old. it flashed upon me, that's you, that's what you did when you were 16 years old. didn't give a hoot about anybody. somebody said something to you, you jumped on them. here it is coming right back at you. you will not deal with this boy. you will walk away from this child. >> host: you wanted to hit him? >> guest: well, i mean, that would have been the first thing, you know, to do, but i said, no, can't do that. you will walk away. as i got off the elevator, they said who do you think you are, old man? that's when i responded, i'm your daddy boy, didn't your mom tell you that? i'm going to have a talk with that woman. it was the wrong thing to do. the correct thing would have been to keep my mouth shut. that would have been -- >> host: you couldn't do it? >> guest: i couldn't do it. >> host: you realize there's part of you rubin carter that wants a rematch, still looking for a fight? >> guest: it's the hurricane. it's the hurricane that lays dormant. it will never go away. it's part of me, but it's dormant now, and it's dr. rubin carter exists, you know, that's the fight here, but the hurricane is always there, and i'll always have to be careful, stay awake, or it's me looking into the cameras, you know what i mean? >> host: nobody ever knocked you out. my dad and i used to train boxers, and we followed your career as a young man, and i was just a child, but nobody ever knocked you out. >> guest: never. i was knocked down three times in my life. >> host: not knocked out. >> guest: never knocked out. i remember the great middle weight fighter and nick knocked me down twice. that's the only times i was down. >> host: you never won the belt? >> guest: i never won the belt, but i would have which is the reason why the world boxes counsel and association for the first time in history awarded me with the middle weight championship belts of the world. >> host: what year was that? >> guest: oh, that was 1991. >> host: it was an hon their championship belt? >> guest: yes, just as i have two honorary doctorate degrees. >> host: where did you get that from? >> guest: las vegas. it was a great day. you know, i am blessed. i am absolutely blessed even when everything is gone in my life, i am blessed to still be alive and to have songs written about me, to have movies written about me, having somebody like denzel washington playing that part or having books wrote about me, i am so blessed, and so i know, i know that as an individual, you can do anything you want to do. you know, i'm not the person to say -- i'm not the person who you can say i can't do this. you know? i tell people in prison look, use this con imposed upon you. use this time to better yourself. if you don't know how to write, use this time to learn how to write. if you don't know how to read, use this time to lerp how to read. if you don't have a skill, use this time to learn a skill. this is your opportunity. >> host: you know one thing that interested me is you don't think much of christianity though? >> guest: i don't think much of any organized religion. >> host: not even for the prisoners? >> guest: not for anybody. >> host: why is that? >> guest: because if organized religion was in any way the peacemaker, there wouldn't be all these wars, these religious wars going on in the world. >> host: you said your family, there was religion. >> guest: yeah, christianity. >> host: what happened to your brother? your brother went to harvard, superintend didn't of boston schools. he didn't stammer? >> guest: no, not at all. only me. >> host: look at what you become. more people know you than your brother. > guest: that's true. my brother died 20 years ago unfortunately, but, yeah. >> host: so for you at 74, the bottom line that comes to doing this book is just enough. you made it. >> guest: just enough. >> host: man mandela said to you, way made it. >> guest: we made it. we were just enough. >> host: just enough at 74, that's what's in your heart? >> guest: this book, the eye of the hurricane, is for those who have eyes to see, ears to hear, and the ability to understand, and those who don't have eyes to see, and ears to hear or the ability to understand, is a good read. >> host: again, the title of the book is "eye of the hurricane, path to darkness to freedom." dr. rubin carter with a forward by nelson mandela. take care. it was a pleasure being with you today. >> guest: it was a pleasure. thank you. >> host: rubin carter. >> guest: yes, sir. .. in his new book "triumph of the city" edward glaeser argues that cities or mankind's greatest invention and the key to future prosperity. he talked about his book at the manhattan institute in new york. this is 45 minutes. >> [inaudible] the country rose to those men in new york, our national gdp would increase by 43%. the three largest metropolitan areas in the u.s. produced 18% of the country's output while containing only 13% of the country's population. the connection between urbanization and economic prosperity is even stronger in the developing world. if you compare those countries with more than 50% of the population in urban areas with those that have less than 50% of the population living in urban areas you will find the more than five times more prosperous, five times richer. they also have infant mortality levels that are one of third as high and they also have people who describe themselves as being more satisfied with their lives and their jobs. that cities are the path out of poverty to prosperity for so much of the world. of course we see in this success of places like new york not just in terms of their income. cities are also fun, green, healthy, they are exciting places to be where the magic of the interactions tend to make so much more exciting. now, a few -- the idea behind this book, the reason the claim the book makes for why the cities have come back is that cities plagued mankind's to mankind's greatest asset which is our ability to learn from people around us. we come out of the womb with this remarkable ability to learn from our parents come from peers and siblings, from people around us doing things that are smart and from people around us who are screwing up. cities make that happen. cities are the absence of space between people, the proximity, density, closeness, and coming to a city like new york and will experience this onrush of human experience that teaches you. when we observe the wages of people who come to the city's it's not as if the immediately become more productive in cities overnight. what happens is year by year, month after month the experience the wage growth and the over the years become more productive and that's really compatible with the cities and machines for learning, as the great english economist offered marshall said the more than a century ago in the dense clusters the mysteries of the trade become a mystery that are as it were in the air. that is very much of places like new york and san francisco and london work and precisely because the globalization and the new technologies have increased the return to being smart. the increased the return to the innovation. they are working for the cities rather than against them. while it is certainly true that the globalization and the new technologies cause the garment industry to disappear from new york city the didn't delineate the return coming up with good fashion ideas at all. the didn't eliminate the creation, value to the images of new york because after all of you can have seldom on the other side of the planet and produce them on the other side of the planet. you can to get into to all of the opportunities in the localized world but taking advantage of that requires new ideas, and innovation and we get smart by being around other smart people. now, things didn't always look so pretty new york city. when i was a kid growing up here in the 1970's it looked as if not just president ford but history itself was still in new york to drop dead. the city seemed mired in crime and disorder the garment industry felt that it had left the city essentially unmourned. the situation wasn't unusual from york because what they were going through was a process of the industrialization and with all of america's older cities. one of the themes of this book is that the american dream that doesn't have to lie behind a white picket fence in the suburbs and the cities have been as intrinsic towards american history and to our experience as a nation as anyplace else. the rebirth of america has its roots in urban interactions in boston in the 17 seventies between john hancock who badly wanted the political change that could be created by the mob and sam adams, who like many purveyors of looker knew how to conjure a mauled and their connections as created by the city of boston changed america, helped create this great country of ours. in the 19th century the great problem was making the wealth of the american interior accessible to the markets of the east and europe. cities made that happen. they grew up to the great transportation network that enabled the rich dark soil of fallujah to become productive. if you go back to 1816, it cost as much to move the goods 32 miles overland as it did to ship them across the atlantic. it was enormously difficult to access all of the wealth that was in the american hinterland. cities grew up to know this great transportation network that grew up along the erie canal. the chicago which was formed start off with the illinois and michigan can now created a great watery arc that spanned all the way from new york to new orleans and reels and supplemented the transportation network that was based on the water and every one of the 20 largest cities in america in 1900 on a major waterway from the oldest in boston which were typically where the river meets the sea and to the newest minneapolis, on the navigable point mississippi river. they grew up around the transportation. new york's three great industries and 1970's were sugar refining, printing and publishing and garment production all of them were tied to the court. sugar refining of course because new yorkers for tikrit try ingalls involved and was plenty of koschel were coming into new york which is how isaac roosevelt, the founder of fdr got involved in the sugar refining business. he also was actually an antibritish agitator because british interfered with his sugar trade. printing and publishing is one of my favorite stories because the money in the 19th century printing and publishing was printing and pirating the novel's you had to come out with the latest in dickens or walter scott and get it out first. now new york's port made that happen. the thing that made the harper brothers succeed in the 1920's is the fact that they could get the latest walter scott novel better than the philadelphia competitors because they were in new york and they were in the great port that actually got the books first and that enabled them to print first and dominate the market. chicago as well, chicago's greatest industry, the stockyards of course grew up around, they were right next to the real and in detroit even more remarkable even occurred in the rise of its automobile industry. and it shows the ability of the cities that formed through mundane reasons to then create these chains of innovation that create some of humankind's greatest endeavors. so if you go back to the mid 19th century dietrich it is a city of small firms, smart people and connections to the outside world and it's a city with a huge amount of inland trade and has agreed business taking care of the engines that are on the ships going on in the great lakes. so detroit dried up the symbol for the 19th century, frank kirby, the great shipping the entrepreneur comes there and they perform a critical role educating young people like henry ford. henry ford gets the start with engines from detroit and he then becomes part of the great to the entrepreneurship. detroit and the 1900's, early 1900's feels like silicon valley. they basically are in automotive genius in a free speed karkh to read david dunbar, the fisher brothers, the dodge brothers all of whom are inventing and innovating and stealing each other's ideas and supporting each other with input all who are desperately trying to figure out the new new thing and they create this amazing thing, the mass-produced inexpensive automobile. now, one of the tragedies in detroit and unfortunately there will be several tragedies i'm going to talk about the next couple minutes is the way they figure it out is by the way they are able to make the mass-produced automobiles is by doing something that is fundamentally into the nickel to the cities. they do it by creating great factories that are vertically integrated and provide employment for the less educated americans come in on one level this is great, extremely productive providing jobs for those americans with less education, but nothing could be more and that a call to it makes the city's work than the rouge plant. great wall surrounding the area. little connections to people around them, and for weigel it is wildly productive. but when the economics team from the transportation costs all that production can easily move and it can move to lower cost areas like the right to work states and of course automobile production can across the globe and the windows conditions change. detroit didn't have the stuff to reinvent itself because it didn't of the culture of japan or ship or the skills that were so intrinsic to the urban renewal. now of course a second tragedy of detroit is the way that the government responded to it was exactly the opposite what in fact detroit needed. the government responded in the federal government prepares a lot of blame in this by being there ready to subsidize new structures first urban renewal and spending on the transportation infrastructure creating nonsensical investments like detroit monreal, the people, not people is the city like detroit, the declining city already has an abundance of structures and infrastructure will give to people. the last thing you need are more structures in place like dietrich and yet politicians or their across the entire rust belt ready to build the villages because it looks great. because it is beautiful to have a shiny new building and all of a sudden you can declare cleveland the convexity but that does nothing to address the problem of the urban area and to insure that children growing up in the cities have the skills they need to compete on the global economy and have something that should be birthright of every one which is the safety of the streets. so, we have people who over the streets but we didn't have the skills and culture of worshiping the treat that would enable it to come back. bye contrast, new york did come back not because a government program but because of private entrepreneurship, people coming up with new ideas and creating a change. now, there are many reasons for this part of it is the new york scale its global connection, the culture of entrepreneur should came out of the industry which is a very much even for people who were getting this store in operating in the new firms. i tell the story in the book of new york's greatest skyscraper builder be for the depression before he declared he was for the 1930 would be a great building year. it didn't turn out so well but until that point, it was a great example of someone in the environment that actually has a tremendous career that follows in the different industries. the father for example another entrepreneur who started off in this, the story of course is new york's comeback is intimately tied to the chain of innovation. now the cities have always, always permitted these chains of brilliance with one a smart idea of another. think of the renaissance where one person left the figures out of the linear perspective works and he passes on to his close friend, donatello puts a sculpture on the wall of the orson passes along to his friend who puts a wall of the chapel as marvelous picture of saint peter finding a point in the belly of a fishing passes along to on the chilean so on and so forth. one smart idea are big on another. malae kind of thing like that. so, my own sort of view of the chain of innovation finances that it starts with people many of whom are at the university of chicago like milton friedman and jimmy savage figuring out how to think about that and added the trade-off. some of that gets passed to harry markowitz and then carried by people like jack trainer and fischer black and some sophisticated ability to think about the trade-offs, ghost takes its way to wall street. this intellectual apparatus has been used by the young michael did stila new york to actually sell the high-yield debt to enable investors more qualitative to recognize his security is actually carried to of turn the risk. that enables the young henry craddock and to increase the industry. the trade-off of understanding this mix also possible the securitization and i think he of course starts with a great example of the ability of cities to nurture and sustain young talent. my favorite member of the chain is bloomberg himself and bloomberg is important in so many ways during this phase of which of course is his data terminals are just one part of the chain of making this increasingly sophisticated ability to trade off the risk and return possible with better data tools but also in a civil of how the city's pre-the cross industry fertilization. how the combination of different industries in the place like new york creates the largest and the most successful leap of entrepreneurial innovation. so of course he comes out of the finance the he's a i.t. entrepreneur and is competing with the guys in silicon valley with its terminals. yet he knows how to compete with them and how to outdo them because he knows the treaters of marijuana and because he won the trading for salomon brothers and he had knowledge that no silicon valley engineer could possibly know and he's able to sort of make this leap. the other reason i like to bring up bloomberg is because there is a picture that is in the book that i am very fond of which is the bullpen in the city hall and of course it is borrowed from the bullpen at bloomberg and before that it's borrowed from the solomon brothers' trading floor. you have the wealthiest people on the planet who in the normal times with morrill industries would sit behind giant doors and protective officers and enjoy all the space and privacy they could have and yet they don't. they choose to be right on top of each other because you're in the industry where the knowledge matters more than space and it is basically how the cities succeed and how new york came back with knowledge more valuable in space and financing new york the cause there's no industry knowing just a little bit more is more valuable is more important. and that's why there's this very strong tendency of ideal oriented industries to be the mainstay of urban renaissance whether talking it out by utech in massachusetts or computers in greater san francisco, talking about leveraging this urban ability to connect people with and learn from one another. now what is often suggested of course that they make it obsolete but i don't think that's true because there's something so fundamental about people that makes face-to-face contact so valuable. we have evolved over millions of years to have an incredibly rich set of tools for communicating to each other and everyone that has ever taught was the hard part is it doing the script it's not actually knowing the information you want to complain it is knowing whether or not your audience gets it, knowing whether or not your ideas are getting through and human beings have all these great use to signal comprehension or confusion and that is a critical part of the transmitting complicated ideas and what the new technology has done is made the idea is ever more complicated. decease the cost of screwing up but not communicating something properly and that is why it is valuable to be face-to-face. of course it cities also succeeded and or in part because of the happenstance, because the things that bloomberg used the never would have learned in the trading session. they would have no idea. now it isn't just about the productivity, it's about the revival of the city's as pleasure as well as earnings, and if you go back to the sort of new york 1970's this wasn't clear this was we to happen like you had to pay people to get them to live in new york. people are willing to accept real wage and new york just to have the fun of living in the city. that didn't happen by accident and the creation of a livable cities requires a fast undertakings which are still not done with in the developing world, these are the great challenges to actually lie ahead. if you go back to the 1900 new york and the national average to a life expectancy in the city is two years and i'm not sure that we understand this for older new yorkers, some say that walking plays a major role and it's actually pretty clear why the death rates are lower. it's just lower rates in the motor vehicle accidents taking the subway after a few drinks is less dangerous than driving drunk and lower rates of subside as one of the interesting thing is while they are not likely to say they are happy but new yorker would do that. they don't of themselves at the same rate people in the low density areas do. but that actually requires investment, and the local governments at the start of the 20 century for spending as much on water as the national government on everything except for the army and the post office and these investments were real and more important. while clean water required in engineering solution, other problems don't require the engineers, the crime has been defeated a major challenge that has been largely met the also requires lots of forget this is acquired seeley as government intervention like handling the externality of crime was difficult. traffic congestion of the problem is still with us and in some sense to me that i like to describe if york is essentially running as the soviet-style transport system and by that, i mean that groceries or underpriced what the market prices and given the way the gross was long lines and stockouts. that is the new york city traffic jam is, it's a long line and stock out because you don't get the good because you're sitting their waiting on line for someone ahead of you to term. now the only way that i know how to handle this is to price the product comes naturally to charge something for scarce space and that is what congestion pricing does. what we know from the data is you can't just build your we of traffic congestion is the fundamental law of traffic congestion which is of the vehicle miles traveled increased roughly one to one with roads built. if you build it they will drive and there's only one solution for that which is to actually make people pay for the social cost of their actions. now, the success of course means it also creates a downside and the downside is if you don't allow the supply to keep up with demand cities become on godly and unaffordable and that is certainly one of the challenges that new york faces. cities like chicago which has been very friendly towards construction and has made it possible for young people with attitudes with a lot of means to actually live in chicago, new york under the bloomberg administration has moved to think productively totalling more construction but if you look at the broad path in the 1970's to the 1990's just as the prices of the city were rising it was like it difficult to build with that feature coming in and then increasing swath of preservation districts which the island of manhattan so currently 15% of the land area in manhattan and central park is in a preservation district and it's not as if i don't read your the architectural legacy like father was an architectural historian and their treasures like the mona lisa but not every postwar brick building needs to be preserved. [laughter] she certainly understood the magic that happens with cities but in looking for a wonder of the cities and just observing things and she observed old buildings were cheap and new buildings were expensive and this letter is the way to keep your york and other cities of order was to make sure you keep the old building of another one called on them and change them into new buildings. it is and how the supply and demand works. if you restrict building for whatever reason and you have high demand prices will go through the roof and that is a lot of what we have actually seen in new york in particular in our own neighborhood of the greenwich village. greenwich village when she lived there was affordable middle-income like herself, like her own family. what middle-income households can afford a town house in greenwich village today? and preservation, the fast district has helped make that happen and has made it difficult for the free market to find more housing and it's a great irony that progressive states like new york and massachusetts and california which allegedly care so much about providing affordable housing for people, such a bad job of it what of texas which as far as i know is never anything in particular for low-cost housing and yet it is a great job of it. it does a great job of it by unleashing the builders and with the ability of the the what of the unfettered construction to actually deliver this these people need is one of the important lessons i try to get across in the book. there's many reasons why cities should have should be relatively unleashed but there's one reason i emphasize in the book which is the green of the city's candler 12 lead into this with a little story about a young harvard graduate and 1844 who went to a walk in the woods outside of concord, he and a friend went to fishing. it was good because there hadn't been much rain not likely which made it easier to get the fish out of the stream and cook in a charter. as they were cooking the chowder the set the flames to the tall grass and a fire started which on the dry timber that was nearby grew larger and larger and a and an inferno in sudan by the time was the morning 300 acres of the byrd land was burned to the dust. during this young man's own time he was cascaded as an enemy of the environment. the referred to him as which i think was pretty damning 1844 and it's hard to think of course of any boston merchant who did much damage to the environment as this young man. of course this young man today is the secular of the american environment and now there's a lesson here which is we are a destructive species and if you love nature and often makes sense to stay away from at. malae in fact also when i started acquiring small children about five years ago you can tell i am an economist i also moved to the woods not that far from concord and i also started to do a heck of a lot more damage to the environment then. now it's not -- i am taking note stand on the science of global warming in this book but certainly either you worry about global warming or you just worry about the price of the gas pump that in fact living in a relatively compact urban space with a significant energy consumption even family ties constant and that is david mcmath econ one fact is people who live in single-family houses use on average 88% more electricity than in apartments and some of controlling for income family size but it's still there and laugh at us to do it smaller housing units and less driving. so if you like a green space, and new york. the book that wasn't fundamental thing about trying to urge any particular person to live in an area they don't want and it's an economist not a lifestyle, and the point of the book is that america has idealized a certain style of living and it's a style of living that involves the defense is in the suburbs and it does not include living in urban apartments, and we have a terrible series of policies that i that we want to be part of the national dialogue about and some sense of hope in this book, just apart from this issue of cities doing themselves damaged by restricting the construction the policies that i think are the most obvious and problematic are the home mortgage interest dhaka the delete to delete the deduction and the way we handle schooling. so in terms of the home mortgage deduction is legally problematic in the wake of the great last ten years we are abiding americans to leverage themselves to bet on the housing market. on top of the center urging americans to buy bigger houses and to move away from urban apartments because 85% of the single families are unoccupied and of the multifamily units and there's good reasons for this and renting an apartment involved, renting a house involved the inevitable appreciation of the renters not taking care of it on average by 1% a year at that and if you put a lot of owners on to one big proof you have the chaos of the new york city co-op board. so both of these say that when you actually subsidize a winning you push people away from the dense urban living. transportation infrastructure as well and i'm not surprised that deeply disappointed by the infrastructure in the recent budget. this infrastructure when filtered by the senate is inevitably into urban. during the stimulus, infrastructure spending per capita was twice as high than the most dense states which isn't surprising and a couple of senators relative to people. this is -- there's very little reason why the government should be in this business. america will no longer compete by producing and shipping natural resources and manufactured goods on slightly cheaper than the competitors. we will compete by what is in our mind and by the ideas and the innovation and the launch pad or shut that happens, and i guess the third thing and i will end with this and i want to emphasize with this so many parents leave cities because of the schools and in some since the we restructured the schools has the great urban virtue of the competition innovation on to the worship. if you took new york restaurants which are currently one of the great glory is of the city if not all civilizations ever, if you start with the new york restaurant and instead of having all of this private innovation, lots of people entering and closing as it turned out the german fusion didn't work. if instead of doing that which you had a single food superintendent who delivered food in the system of the city-owned canteen's this would be pretty awful place to be. and get this kind of what we've done with our schools. instead of dr. leal when the private competition to come up with new ideas for education and it's just enormously hard for anyone no matter how hard working directly affect change from the top down. i had enormous subornation for charles and i think that he tried very hard to introduce more competition and innovation in the school district but the slow movement of schools under the leadership is how heavy of the left is and i think that we have had really hopeful signs from the hon things like the charter schools which is the allow some form of competition and innovation and as a meaningful things in terms of improving task force. so i think that we are unlikely to have better schools and to have improvements without the competition in an entrepreneur should and once you do that there is no reason why the american cities can have the best schools in the world but you're unlikely to have the public monopoly on schooling. so let me and there and say how much i am grateful for your attention and look forward to learning from you and the confines of the urban environment. thank you very much. [applause] >> can you please leave for the microphone because we are recording. >> they are attracted to wealthy people was not counterintuitive. but the question really is our cities attracted to people who are poor when david brooks wrote a series in the atlanta monthly ten years ago when he talked about how happy people were in rural areas because there was less income inequality and there was more of the sense of community but alone the sort of conservative tradition of the rural moral virtue. could you address some of those? and also it would be great to talk about what you think of the city's and third world where problems with poverty and population are dominant. >> that's connected, right? so in fact the new york issue is the hollowing out of the middle class it's not the lack of poverty. and new york continues to have a high poverty rate and indeed all of urban america. cities tend to have a higher poverty rate than suburban areas. the preponderance of people was even more evident from mumbai to rio. it is often seen as a sign of urban failure but in fact, i believe it is a sign of urban success. cities are full of poor people not because they make poor people, but because they attract more people with the promise of economic opportunity. and in the case of the u.s., the ability to get around without a car for every adult so some of the worker site in the book is public transportation, the natural poverty and one of the fact is when you build the subway stop, poverty rates go up near that stop. does that mean that those subway stops are making people poor and magically in pop version the people around them? of course not. those subway stops are attracting poor people who value the ability not to have a car for every adult who needs to get around. now, in the developing world, cities provide an even more important path out of poverty and gondhi talked about how the future was in her abilities, but this is plainly nonsense. the future of india which are the ways to connect with the outside world that are the places where poor indians become middle income indians come and if you -- it is unquestionably true that life is enormously difficult. a life none of us would want to live for today live alone many years. there's still reasons why people come there. it beats the poverty deprivation of the world in the northeast of brazil. it beats living in the world in which time seems to stand still and infant mortality is endemic and the cities provide that promise. now it doesn't mean the city's dhaka actually create challenges and the water plant that if we are close enough to exchange ideas where we are close enough to inspect each other with a disease and close enough to sold to a newspaper in close enough to radhi and that is the point when they require a certain amount of well structured government. like the require the government that oversees clean water, they require the government handles crime. and the tragedy of india is that its government policies have engaged in regulation areas the have no business regulating. mumbai has suffered terribly in its draconian areas and limits on building up which has cut the city far too low and far too expensive while they feel to provide the basics of urban life. when i wandered around a place which was the largest slum in the world you're struck by the enormous power of culture to the worship. it's thrilling one corner there's a couple of guys making bribes and utility or the lower east side of manhattan years ago and another corner there's a beautiful little pops being painted and sharp called and the number corner there's a bunch of people recycling old plastic and i'm not sure about the syringe is but the other things seem perfectly reasonable and the same time you see a child and defecating in the street. and this is the great challenge that in fact, you know, the public sector not doing the things they have to at the same time it's in teaching for too much action in the areas they shouldn't be. so, i certainly push back on the notion there's much to like about rural poverty. certainly not in the developing world. but having cities require the management and requires a good but limited public sector that knows its job and does it seriously the of. >> the central thesis seems very similar to another colleague of yours at harvard and an article he wrote in 1990, the competitive that vantage of nations and it seems he spoke about industries and clusters and innovation competition and the like. it's a jury similar. i wonder if you have in the areas you part company with michael in your thesis akaka it to. >> my first work on cities was done in about 1990 as well and we were influenced at the point in time by his work. one of the facts that came out was showing a correlation between small average establishment sizes, the competition and urban success. i think that is seeing the virtues of the idea flow in the cities which is not, this is an old idea as alfred marshall was high on this notion of 120 years ago it isn't something i think that separates us. i think i'd probably less optimistic about his vision for competitiveness in the inner city and i think actually there was probably too much emphasis on with the current competitive of advantage is relative to try to think of more game changing things that radically increase the human capital in these areas so that is the fundamental thing. it's not in giving out how to do low value-added services and inner-city areas it's figuring out to provide the skills and connection that enable them to grow and then of course there's 80% the book is about things unrelated to michael porter's core interest but certainly i share his enthusiasm for enthusiasm and connecting between people and dints corridors. >> the cover of your book as a picture of chicago i think, might? anyone who's been to chicago lately knows the city looks amazing. it's clean, their sparks downtown, skyscrapers and in the census came out of two weeks ago that said chicago lost 200,000 people the last ten years which is more than they were expecting and at the same time cut the urban counties away from chicago with the fastest growing in the country. is that a problem? and what did chicago do that it's not already doing and why do we see these results? >> chicago when the disease successful city and in some sense the right thing to do is to. chicago has a lot of things in common with other rust belt cities and if you go back to the chicago i knew when the city was there when i came to this city in 1998, that city seemed very much to be on a hinge of history. is the market could go the path of cleveland or detroit rather the of the past that it's all one. it fights against serious trend. there's no variable that predicts the growth in the place of dreeben the january temperature in chicago winters can be tough. chicago also fights against the general move towards the car based living in chicago is a very decentralized city in terms of its unemployment, and that is also an issue in the city. that being said i don't think you to judge a city purely by population numbers and there are a lot of people moving into chicago as well as the fact there are some areas losing population. you also have depopulation as the cause of larger families replaced by smaller families. that is particularly most evident in the 1970's or you have a huge population loss because of that that continues to be true in many large cities today that if increasingly wealthy population means that you have fewer people occupying the same space which i think is the population numbers can go down. so i have a lot of admiration for a lot of the things that the mayor has done. i think it deserves to be seen as a very successful city as well as much of what an area and i think it's a mistake to just view this great population number as being the only or the primary gauge of success. you also want to look at the income of the area and the crime rate both of which have shown tremendous progress under his leadership. >> you begin your talk by citing one hard fact that the fraction of the national output sees the fraction of the population. with only a small number of large metropolitan areas is it possible for a few to skew that result? normally we measure of output by at a restaurant meal costs 200 in manhattan we would say $200 was created in a number of ways that those are more matters of opinion in fact for example with the national gdp normally the gdp would be applied but it applies at the level of the whole country or state and people could argue about whether it should be the level of the city for example of the restaurant meals a new york city cost $200 in kansas cost 50,000 is one more valuable theater and that is a matter of opinion and another example was that new york city is dominated by the financial industry and the last few years people will argue about whether the produce much value as people think. do you consider those issues of opinion as both issues of fact? >> if you look across metropolitan areas and look at the relationship between the gdp per capita it is a steady curve up. it's not as if new york is through the line and everything else is flat. if you look at particular industries so you divorce yourself from the locally domestically traded term to the industry, the industry's you actually look at the export oriented industries you see the seams on the dvr winstrol relationship in the metropolitan size and per-capita, per capita, per employee each. it's certainly true that there is rarely a free lunch city choice as anything else and and the fact that there are higher prices in new york is the price of living in a productive place. it's not as if new york is giving people more productivity without charging people in some sense for them. that's the nature of space, that's the nature of cities. but if the firms were not more productive in metropolitan areas they wouldn't be sticking around paying the higher cost of being in those areas we have to gauge of literature in the economy is in the various ways all of which fairly uniformly as come now on the side that there a strong benefit from conglomerate and among other industries in various ways. >> to your point about competition in schools despite crime do you think going forward that there is a likelihood of improvement in new york as well as other cities? >> you know, i am hopeful, by nature optimistic and most hopefully new york because there's so much talent in the city pushing all margins. new york -- if you with the promise academy there are two things which it possible for that to happen. and it is much more difficult. one of which is the wealth of the film from the energy which is very special in the city which actually makes things like that work. also of the manhattan institute work and in some senses i'm strongly in favor of it. the other thing of course is you get great teachers. there are people who are very and willing to work for the academy which would be harder in the smaller -- city with less richness and human capital. so, the -- i continue to be quite optimistic. it requires leadership at the center you could have a bad term in terms of who is the next mayor and all sorts of things could go wrong but i basically did that people get -- the energy of new york would insure a relatively good government outcome going forward and it makes me optimistic about the city. i am less optimistic about the declining cities and that they will be able to create change in this area. the good news is that you're starting off such a low base and education in some of the centers of the provision in this country that anything will be have the possibility of doing good, but i am less optimistic that the ability of really meaningful political change in this area. but remember part of the job of being an economist who's not running for office, never plans on being confirmed for any political john is that i am supposed to see things that are politically impossible because if i limit myself to things they're actually doable tomorrow i of not doing my job of trying to push beyond that. so, you know, not really the best judge of what is politically feasible in the time soon. >> time for one more question. >> i spent years as a television reporter -- degette you've got the voice for it, too. >> how can we bring the city's back into the city that was on the great waterways, as the innovative center in the university but the great sleight of youth and intellectual capital. how could we bring that back? what are the possible solutions around the york, chicago, for cisco? >> i did that one of the glories of the united states that we get lots of different types of cities. it's not as if i believe everyone should live in the new york city skyscraper and there's a lot to like in buffalo in smaller towns. that being said, those towns that have once existed because the transportation and the erie canal have focused on a few larger detector industry's that lost their way these cities are certainly facing enormous challenges. in the long run, education is the best fix for the serious. there is a kid did they have done much better than the middle sized cities -- there's no variable that bitter critics which crystal cities will come back in the 1970's and parred the lacrosse metropolitan areas. as a share of the adult peery with a college degree increases by 10% wages go up for workers by 8% holding their own education constant so it's an enormous value of being around people and also of the downturn education is very protected metropolitan area. it's a very strong negative association between metropolitan area unemployment and the skills of the metropolitan area. again, more of a connection than you would predict the fact 5% of college graduates are completed 15% of college dropouts or employe said education is certainly the central thing and not investing in infrastructure that is not with these places need. no thinking about what else you can do in terms of limiting regulation and relatively cheap quality-of-life investments in some sense the best economic to the limit strategy at the urban level is to attract and trade smart people and get out of their race and you want to be focused on policies that will attract and trade as our people and you want to make sure you've gotten rid of those things that get in the way of private entrepreneurship it on top of that this is related to the chicago question you don't want to be chasing your population level in 1950 because that isn't going to happen and that shouldn't be objective. just once i want to hear big city mayors say the city's population dropped by 150,000 the those people were well-trained it went on to great trains to be cut jobs in charlotte. [laughter] [applause] once i want to hear a city mayor focus on the people that are there at the fundamental responsibility rather dimond the population goal. so unfortunately i don't think there's any sort of silver bullet but we have done better than we have been and the city's deserve that. >> thank you very much. [applause] she became a cook book author mac and television personality julia child served in the office of strategic services during world war ii. author janet komen describes her time in the book a covert affair. this is 40 minutes. [applause] >> thank you for venturing out on this rainy spring evening. i think i'm going to start off by quoting the groucho marx to the effect that before i begin talking i have something to say. the first thing everyone absolutely everyone asks me is how julia child, 6 feet two with that incredibly distinctive operatically is ever managed to slip incognito behind enemy lines. the answer is simple, she didn't. the we will get to that leader. the other thing is despite what he may have read this morning in usa today, boon devotees was not a secret code. a more serious note, the most common question that i get is what on earth brought me to this topic, how did i come to write about julia child and more to the point how did i know that julia child the popular french chef of the kaput and television came had worked for the country's first intelligence agency? the truth is i read it in the new york post. i happen to see a headline, secret recipes of spy and reported that she had an employee of the office of strategic services which is most of you know is hastily set up by president roosevelt in the early days of the war. it is the forerunner of today's cia. anyway, i was in washington at the time, this would have been the fall of 2008 and i was on my book tour for the irregulars which happened to be about a group of british spies in the early days, and at that time the national archives released a huge cache of previously classified documents, this was a huge, huge haul of paper's classified records and a detailed the 24,000 people that had worked for the oss during world war ii. these identified for the first time the vast civilian and military network of operatives who served their country during the time when it was threatened by nazis and by fascists. and some of these people were very notable and every unusual and the most unlikely possible secret agents. among the supreme court justices arthur goldberg, the actor sterling hayden white sox catcher and the historian arthur schlesinger jr. but perhaps the oss made headlines across the country. everywhere i went on this book tour for the next few weeks people would stop me and asked me to believe was she really a spy? what did she do, where did she go? and i didn't know the answer to any of the questions, so i began doing some work researching and one thing or another lead to the beginning of the book. now, like so many wartime secrets, julia child oss's career wasn't a secret at all. the basic fact of her intelligence career could be looked up in the ingredients to her recipes. late in her life she opened up a bit about her past and brokers vow of silence and talked about oss. she even mentioned a few paragraphs about it in her memoir my life in france. it was mentioned in various books, a movie and it was in all of the of the juries when she died in 2004. a huge treasure trove was released there was great excitement about the new material and it caused a bit of concern. she had been very reluctant to release them. the former director of the cia prepared them to release the records and they begin slowly releasing them in 1981. the personal records harry last papers to be released in the julia child 130 page classified document give the details of her dynamic career in the intelligence agency and made for some fascinating research. the first thing that became clear to me was contrary to all of this newspaper headlines she was never actually a spy but hoped to become one when she joined the agency in december of 1942. like so many young people in the wake of pearl harbor she moved to washington and was determined to try to serve her country. she was single, 30 and unemployed with several failed attempts of her career behind her. she was also looking for a second chance at life, the chance to remake her life and to do something special. she was the daughter of a well-to-do ranger and had graduated but had spent most of her post college years as she admits as a social butterfly. she spent a lot of time playing golf and tennis, attending parties and generally having a good time. she was keeping house for her widowed father and living a very sheltered life. she was on her own account a pretty clean person with no skills. she didn't speak any language is and she had never been further out of the country than a trip to tijuana. she had always felt she was bigger than life and destined for big things. but by age 30 the head miserably failed to materialize. still, she was tall, very athletic, she was sure she would be unnatural for the army or the navy reserve. when she was rejected, the letters came to call the state. she was bitterly disappointed. she used family connections and got a job at the war department. it was low level secretarial job and she was a typist and she loaded and was determined to work to get promoted. she did and she got herself transferred to the offices of the legendary colonel william wild bill donovan, the newly appointed head of the oss, a mysterious new intelligence agency. as one reviewer recently noted the cloak and dagger business was like bread and butter. she found the mysterious agency exciting and glamorous and she loved her brilliant eccentric colleagues. she soon found herself and experimental research project called the emergency rescue equipment. she was working with an eminent harvard zoologist. his name was harold jefferson coolidge and he was no less the descendant of thomas jefferson street she was developing a sharp that could be rubbed on pilots who had been down at sea to protect them. they conducted all kind of bizarre experiments and designing the rescue kit and shelia's responsibility was to go to the fish market early every morning for the fresh catch. for the first time in her life, she loved her work and felt she had found her niche, please she belonged. there were colorful personalities and had the kind of idiosyncratic lenient atmosphere of a small liberal arts college and had the same tolerance for the oddballs and eccentrics. she heard donovan's idea of the ideal female employee he was a cross between the smith graduate, power model and katie gibbs girl. finally for once, julia had all of the right qualifications. she even had a private income after her mother's death that made her appear above reproach. the rumor in washington at the time was that donovan high year from the ivy league and the junior league because he believed if you are well-off less susceptible to bride and the critics scoffed the oss did to be tested for oh social and oh so secret. the fact was the oss didn't begin recruiting until well after all of the other services that had their pick and so donovan was forced to scramble to find real talent. forced with the huge intelligence gathering operation and administrative bureaucracy virtually overnight he had to get creative. but he knew the specific skills he was looking for. he needed someone with the greens to make decisions on the fly, the street smarts to know when to throw out the rule book, someone with an abundance of self-confidence and in over developed and underdeveloped sense of fear. of course the same qualifications could be used to describe in the number of dubious characters and critics leader charged that bogden's liked standards and all sorts of dangerous people were employed as spies. still, bogden began by hiring lawyers from his own wall street firm as well as private attorneys from other firms and businessmen that he knew. he recruited a wide variety of academic everything from psychologists and anthropologists and linguists to mathematicians and even ornithologists who chased birds across asia. he recruited an assortment of creative types including artists, painters returns and inventors. with time being of the essence he simplified the pendente process by keeping it all within the family. if a oss had a girlfriend or sister who happened to go to college and had a decent typing speed she would be brought in and promised a better job and faster advance it. if by chance she had any foreign languages or lived abroad she would be whisked off to one of the secret schools and start intensive training. while working for the oss in washington, julia became fast friends with a number of young women that were training to be spies and she was green with envy. one of them was a woman named jane foster. jade, like julia, was from a wealthy, conservative west coast family. she was an adventurous california girl but baird the similarity ending. jane was widely traveled, she had briefly been married to a dutch diplomat and stationed in john thune and spoke several languages including fluent malay. she was everything julia felt she was not, why all the sophisticated and alluring, witty and outrageous, bold and daring enough to be true model hari material. while jade -- weigel julia was stockley file jade list to a crash course in espionage and learning everything from forgery, cartography, cryptography to the fundamentals about the morale operations, how to create subversive propaganda and rumor campaigns to demoralize the enemy and create dissent. another colleague that can agree for the julia was named betty mcdonald. but he had grown up in honolulu and had been a young reporter in one of the very first on the scene after the pearl harbor attack. she was recruited by the oss because her working knowledge of japanese and her wartime experience. she and giulio would disappear -- she and shane would disappear weeks of the time of orientation courses and small arms courses where they learn how to master thompson sub medish vv to -- machine gun and a 45. julie was desperate to go to france but after 17 years of high school and college french, she discovered she couldn't speak a word. she had no special skills to recommend her for overseas service so when the word went out that donovan was looking for warm bodies, in the body to help set up and run a network of new intelligence bases and in dhaka, burma and china she immediately volunteered. she didn't care where she went as long as she got to go and there was a shortage in the newly formed oss was woefully understaffed. it's important i think to remember that when you think of the oss you generally think about the paramilitary operations. they get all the glory. you think of the images of agents parachuting behind enemy lines but the fact of the matter is of the 13,000 employees about 4500 of which were women the vast majority spent their time writing reports, collecting and analyzing information and planning commissions. so the fact that many of the oss's unorthodox the activities could be conducted from behind the desk meant that the women could be equally as effective. >> on the month long boat trip, she ended up being rerouted new supreme commander decided it would be a much nicer, not to mention much cooler place for his word time head quarters. . >> the tiny green tenus court made it seem like an island retreat, than a wartime head quarters. while the setting was romantic, julie's job was anything but. the military plans and operations, classified cables from the joint chiefs of staff in washington, the code books, swealings the locations of all of the oss missions around the world and the real identity and various codes names of their oss agents in the field. it was an important job. it carried grave responsibilities, and it came from the highest security clearance. julia joked she developed a twitch from dealing with such highly sensitive material. while she was never an operational agent behind enemy lines, she became a very able and effective intelligence officer. within her last few months a china serving at a remote military outpost, she was working through very, very difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions. she carried on through a devastating flood, a raging cholera epidemic, and outbreaks of cross fire from the chinese revolution that was overrunning their camp. by the end, she was a seasoned veteran of the oss and dulled out slices of opium to nation agents which she said reminded her of bothen, but they referred to as the operational payroll. now, jewel la would say the war made her. it was her personal and political coming of age, infused her with a new confidence and curiosity about life, and it's where she meant our mentor and soul mate, paul child, and embarked on a life altering add adventure. she was immediately submitten. he was 41, a decade older and a head shorter. he was withdrawn and somewhat difficult. his colleagues regarded him as a loner, moody, and set in his ways, not an easy man. he started out by skipping college and working as a sailor, studied painting in paris and spoke impeccable french, a self-taught photographer, black belt, house builder, and jack of all trades. he considered himself a connoisseur in art, food, poetry, and women. he romanced all the prettiest oss officers, and after his initial advances were robust, became the beers of friends with jane foster, who he described as a wild messy girl, always in trouble, always gay and irresponsible. she was infamous overnight for her inspired scheme to release propaganda materials incased in condoms. her plan was to have a submarine release the floating rubbers, and they would float ashore bearing friendly messages of allied support. [laughter] donovan was skeptical, but gave her the green lite. during the year, jane and paul were inseparable, and julia pined for a man who took little notice. it pained her, but she knew he was not attracted to her and liked worldly types. she was not wrong in guessing he did not reciprocate her feelings. he wrote long letters to his twin brother raving about jane, and he would note in passing julia is was nice girl with good legs. he dismissed her as a grown up girl knowing at 31, she was inexperienced and overly emotional and a virgin trying to be brave bout being an old maid. not being one to give up, she soldered on, and in early 1945, she and paul were transferred to china where jane stayed behind where she was training native agents and running subversive radio broadcasts. seizing her chance, she got his attention, went exploring with him, venturing to back alley chinese dives and tried to prove herself by daring to eat exotic delicacies from frog to pig nickels. now, these feats resulted in days and days of dysentery knowned to oss as the shanghai shits. [laughter] sorry, can i say that on c-span? sorry, any way, she was head over heals in love, and paul, well, he was on the fence. he dreaded meeting her right wing father. he worried she revert to being a sociallite at the end of the war and he suggested they should return to life and see if they liked each other in civilian clothes. they went their separate ways, and she embarked on a mission to win him over and subscribed to the "washington post" and "new york times" to read what paul read. she even took up the novels of henry miller she found x-rated, but paul doored and took her first cooking lessons. well, after six months after a long distance courtship and increasingly steaming correspondence, he succumbed and allowed his head to overrule his heart and married in september 1946. in 1948, two years later, the childs moved to paris. paul went to work for usis, united states information service, a branch of the state department, and julia continued her cooking lessons. they reconnected with their old friend jane in paris who was a painter, and they found her married to a very odd russian man, but as paul wrote that day, she was just as lazy, hay someday, and impracticable as she always has been. they were all soon broiled in the red spy scare. in a few years after the war, the euphoria of victory was replaced by new fears about the spread of communism. after the fall of china to the reds in 1949 when they led the communists, an increasing number of officialing became convinced that communism posed a real threat to america's security. by the end of 1950, spy fever gripped the country. people were convicted, confessed and others arrested on espionage charges. in 1953 after three years of media coverage, the rosenbergs got the chair and this seems to confirm in government that there were spies in every nook and corner in washington. as the journalists richard once observed, senator joseph mccarthy was a political speculator who found his oil gusher in communism. he kicked off his anticommunism crew said with a speech in wheeling, west virginia, claiming to have had a list of 205 known communists currently employed in the state department. they en route to their new home when the finger pointing began. works from everyone to their close friends teddy white who covered china for "time" were banned from the usis libraries in europe. paul had to take the books off himself and see that they were destroyed. rumors about where mccarthy's tactics would lead spread like wild fire. they watched in dismay as one after another of the career foreign service officers they had served with in china, among them some of their very closest friends were accused of disloyalty and forced out while still others quit in disgust. somehow, victory in china was seen as part of a master kremlin plot enabled by secret communists within the state department known collectively as the china hands. at the same time, jay edgar hoovers, the head of the fbi was out to destroy the reputation who he viewed as a threat. donovan to protect his former staff started burning the oss records of his former personnel knowing that many of them like jane and paul were left as center. julia and paul's letters capture the atmosphere of fear and pair know ya that permeated their circle. julia considered mccarthy a power monger and believed his campaign of inknew indoe an intimidation was destroying a croi she loved. i am worried about mccarthyism she wrote. what can i do as an individual? it is frightening. i am ready to bear my breasts, stick any neck out, i won't forget anything. we'll sec fies anything. finally they became caught in the buzz saw of mccarthy's red spy hunt. on april 7, 1955, paul received an urgent telegram summoning him to washington. their old friend, the reckless and flamboyant foster was being investigated by the fbi as a russian spy. when she was arrested in paris, the authorities ransacked her apartment and found paul child's name in her address book. paul and julia found themselves in the middle of a terrifying nightmare, investigations, lengthy interrogations, and a drawn out despiritting inquiry. friends, family, neighbors, and former employees were questioned about paul's past. his communist proqifties, lose bohemian lifestyle and blatant homo sexual tendencies. if you want to have fun, prove the fbi guys that you are not a lesbian. how do you prove it? they decided they would not be intimidated, and they chose to stand by friends and principles no matter what the cost. in the chaotic months to come, they would have to endure the shame of being accused as well as the taint of suspicion that paul rightly predicted would always place a black mark by his name and curtail his career advancement. ultimately, they also have to come to a very painful decision about whether jane was a soviet spy or the victim of an overzealous fbi. without giving away the whole story, i'd like to say that in the point of this book was to examine the complex issues that this close knit group had to face in that controversial his historical era and to explore the intriguing ways that personality becomes destiny, and how these two adventurous california girls who came to be wartime friends and intelligence colleagues came to meet such different fates, one becoming a beloved american icon, and the other a lonely exile in france. thank you. [applause] do we have any questions? no questions? great, well -- yes? >> how long did it take you to write the book? >> it took probably about three years. i had done the previous book about the oss, so i had a great deal of material which helped speed up the process, and i was very well read into the period and the characters, but the last book i did was from the british side, and so this one was more from the american side, and it really is based on paul and julia's diaries and letters, but there's such a wonderful correspondence tween the two that i had a vast and colorful archive to work with. >> did the families ever help you? were they help to you? >> yes, all the families were very cooperative, and, in fact, some of the families even of minor characters in the book who were oss colleagues of theirs on the boat to india, worked with them in china, people gave me their letters and diaries, so the very vivid descriptions you get in the book, there's a lot of dialogue and a lot of scenes that make you feel as though you are there, and the reason is because they're drawn from so many diaries. i had so many characters, i limit the number of characters i name, but all the incidents were true and happened, and julia stood out for obvious reasons, her height and her very vivacious personality, and jane who was outrageous and infamous in her time there, and almost everybody had a story to tell that they remembered. >> that was kind of my question as well, where did you get the letters from? from family? >> from families. after that, and jane foster's family offered me personal letters and diaries. there's the huge archive that paul and julia left to harvard. other families also provided me with letters and diaries, and then i did an enormous amount of research in the military and libraries and repositories where i found all the telegrams and intelligence reports that they filed, many of julia's memos, jane foster's reports, all of their superior's reports about them, and so i could really tell you what they were and what they were doing much of the time they were abroad, and then they all stayed such close friends and kept exchanging letters throughout the 50s, so even after the war, i was able to keep up with them, and they were very frank in the letters, very moving about their fear of losing their jobs and what's happening to their friends., so you can really get a feeling for the time. >> can you bring the microphone, please? >> during the time of the inquisition in washington, were the american people sympathetic of julia or any record how they responded to her being taken in front -- >> it was paul taken in for the full loyalty inquiry and because they didn't know what was happening, julia was in europe. they were living in germany at the time, and got a telegram summoning him back and they thought in the beginning he was going to get a promotion, and when he got there, nobody talked to him, met his eyes or say what he was doing there, and it was clear he was in some sort of serious trouble, and them he was pulled in for a very long fbi interrogation and he cabled julia in germany saying it's kaska esk. i don't know what's going to become of me. that was for a month. they were able to unit again in paris, and it was several more months until he managed to get cleared. in fact, they continually investigated him for the next year. it didn't become public in that sense that there with respect headlines about it. in fact, the sad thing is hups and hundreds of people were under investigation in the 50s. the hollywood 10 already happened. charlie chap lin was under invest gage for months -- investigation for months and fled to europe. there were hundreds of people under investigation every day. paul didn't make the news. julia was not famous yet. their friends all knew and everybody in the state department knew, and it was humiliating, and terrifying, and they -- paul rightly predicted his career would probably not recover from it. >> was paul brought before the committee itself or just by the committee investigators? >> he was subjected to a full loyalty inquiry that was the fbi investigating him, the united states information service investigated him, his past, going back 10 years and all of that, but he wasn't dragged before a senate subcommittee. in the end, even though they thought he was about as liberal as you could get without being a communist and thought he was probably a homosexual and accused him of other acts, julia was from a very wealth right wing family, and her father was one of the early supporters of knickson, and she pulled everything string in washington, and he was finally cleared. >> what role did paul play in her celebrity? >> that's an interesting question, and a complicated question to answer. if you look at the ark of their relationship, shefers really a -- she was really very up secure, unexperienced girl when he met her, and she turned herself inside out to become someone he would like and admire and perhaps one day love, and so he really in a way became her mentor, educated her, shaped her interests, and through that, she took up cooking and fell in love with french food, and she came out of that as outspoken, charismatic individual, and she really credited him so much with that that when she became a celebrity, virtually overnight with her cook boom, she worked on it while he supported her for 10 years it took for the first book, and it came out and was an overnight success, and she stepped from being a nobody into the limelight and becoming a celebrity, and it was interesting. she would always use the plural. we did this. we did that in referring to herself and paul because i think of the enormous dealt of gratitude she felt she owed him. >> how did you get interested in this genera? this historical genera? >> that's a good question, you know? i'm from a war family. my grandfather, james, was the president of harvard when world war ii, in the early days of world war ii, and he was appointed by president roosevelt to be one of the men that led the organization of the manhattan project and development of the bomb. i grew up in the far east in cam bridge surrounded by wartime scientists, politicians, and the men that led the war effort, so i was hooked on war stories and movies at an early age, and it just stuck. >> what other books have you written? >> i wrote a book called "tex -- tuxedo park" and they began experimenting with radar and would lead the wartime project that developed all of the radar systems that helped win the war in europe. them i wrote a book about the development of the bomb called 109 east al lice, and then wrote about british thighs call about the development of the oss, called the "irregulars" so you can kind of see a theme. [laughter] the lady in pink, yeah. >> what happened to jane? >> well, i can't tell you that. you have to read the book. [laughter] i'm glad you're curious. you have to find out. >> thank you. >> any other questions? yes, sir. >> yeah, the investigations were over, did they have bitter feelings towards the u.s.? >> i think that's one of the things that which is nice about the book, you see different people's reactions. betty mcdonald went through the process as well, and she was married to the boss, and he helped burn the papers of the oss personnel before the fbi could come and get them. she as well as julia and paul never became bitter about the u.s.. they were very bitter about that period, and they really hated mccarthy, but they stayed very optimistic in the ability of people to learn and change, and they, after all, they all returned to the united states and lived a very happen life in the united states -- very happily in the united states from 1960 on. they were not bitter about that, but they did have very sad and complicated feelings about the 1950s even though that's when so much good happened to julia in her career. she would always have very mixed feelings about that period of time. >> time for a couple more questions. >> how helpful was the government -- oh, sorry. how helpful was the government to you in getting information or unhelpful. [laughter] >> well, you don't want to say unhelpful, that's an active term. they -- they make it hard for you. i had to order all the oss documents, and then for almost every character in the book, the fbi files. now, jane foster's fbi file is more than 65,000 pages. if you can imagine -- now, as you get further in the book, you'll meet a number of other characters whose fbi files are longer, so you get these papers and sort of pack cets of 200 at a time. every time you need to request them, you double check, and you have to wait three months. >> [inaudible] >> it's just a very long process to go through the foya request, the freedom of information act, and you don't get everything, and when you do get the fbi files, they are blacked out, sections are whited out, and then you go through another set of appeals to argue they should give you those papers. it's a never ending process. i have a feeling i'll receive fbi files on paul and jane for years to come. [laughter] i hope i don't find anything shocking in them. yes? >> since they were such letter writers, did julia or paul ever write a letter to mccarthy? [laughter] >> no, not that i know of. it's always possible, but i wouldn't think so because they pretty much hated him on site from the beginning and only got worse. they wrote a lot of letters about him though. there's just reames and reames of sort of angry screams against him in the letters and diaries, and it's actually just fascinating to read how it darkens you know through the 1940s to the hollywood 10 and watched the prosecution of directors and actors in hollywood, and he moved, and you see their fear and anxiety deepen, and it's really, it's really compelling reading. thank you, all so much for soming today. [applause] -- for coming today. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> tonight on c-span2, 5 look at the political activism of hollywood celebrities with the "politico". an interview with rubin carter. he talks about being in prison for 25 years on false criminal charges. edward talkings # about the value of the urban environments in the triump of the city. >> they embarked on a discussion about celebrity activism. they also talked about childhood obesity. it's a little more than an hour. >> i want to welcome the c-span viewers and twitter audience at hash tag playbook breakfast. what's something the government should do more or less of? >> well, that's a big question. let me narrow that question and focus it on what i do as a creative coalition which we are primarily an organization that protects, defends, and advocates for the arts in the united states, and, you know, we're in this climate of cutting budgets on everything, and so one of the things we try to do is get the government to support and spend more money on the national endowment for the arts which if you adjust for inflation it's $100 million behind what it was 20 years ago, and, you know, the thing about cutting is that, well, for instance, if you own five stocks, four are losing, and one is making money, don't sell all of them, just the ones losing money. that's a good investment for america because every dollar spent by the federal government generates $7 tax dollars in return. it's on mission to convince the government to, you know, not only maintain federal funding, but hopefully increase it which is not going to happen in this particular climate. we're not, you know, we don't live in a fantasy world. with that being said, the other thing we want to do is to change the narrative and the dialogue about the arts in this country because there's a common misperception they have that they are not involved in the arts. they think -- we used to have the arts and they think of an opera gala in new york city whereas what we try to remind people of is it's your kids' school play, the choir you sing in at church. everywhere you look, the arts are represented. the design of your tie. the architecture in this room. the music people listen to on their ipods. >> patrick's shoes. >> his socks especially. [laughter] you know, and people forget that it's a part of our lives. you know, our national anthem is a song. there's a reason that it's a song because the arts inspire us, and the other thing about this is that, you know, something that not a lot of politicians even know is entertainment is the second largest education port in the united states, so we believe that our government officials and our citizens should talk about the arts with the same kind of respect that we talk about with general motors or pharmaceutical companies or the insurance policy industry. >> how do you feel that you're not optimistic you can increase funding? are you optimistic you can maintain it? there's an interesting debate with npr, it's slightly different, but the argument folks pose that funding set is that it is arts, and it is sort of like private enterprise, why rely on the government? i'm sure you hear from from people. what do you say to those people, and what do you say to people who say i want to cut money for the arts in the federal government. >> nonprofit organizations all over the country don't rely on the government. it's a very small part of arts funding, but what it is is it's like the, you know, the stamp of approval on the meat that you buy at the supermarket. what it says to communities large and small is that this regional theater or this symphony orchestra got seed money from the government and that allows private enterprise and individuals to pour money into those things. the federal government is not supporting, you know, in any major way any of the enterprises, just saying we think this is worthy, and that is sort of opening the door to other funding. did i answer your question? >> you did, thank you. [laughter] in a climate where there is going to be mostly cutting, what are you able to say to republicans? what can you say to speaker john boehner that will resinate with him? >> i can say things like you know, children that study a rigorous curriculum of arts in school are three times more likely to graduate from high school, likely to make more money, do better on test scores, do better in math and science. there's a lot of research that supports that, and one of the things that, you know, hopefully he believes about the federal government is that its responsibility is to protect and defend our culture. our culture is represented by our art, and this city is a great example of that as you walk around the city. you see all this beautiful architecture which is a perfect kind of meeting of science, technology, and or -- artistry. i hope he thinks it's a good investment. seven to one odds to vegas, i think boehner would take that in a second. that's what it is with the government. >> when we were shouting yesterday, i joked with you because you're such a seasoned veteran of the town. >> old? >> a little bit. [laughter] this is your fifth white house correspondence; correct? >> yes. >> it's jack's first. i'll take it easy on him. [laughter] because you are familiar with the ways of dc, would you consider a political run? you swatted that out saying you're more effective in your current role. tell me why that's the case? >> well, look, i mean, that's a big kind of philosophical discussion about democracy, but it's rough, man. it's hard to move the needle and part of, you know what we do at the trade is to keep the needle from going down, you know? it's hard to get things passed, and it's hard to change people's minds, and it's very frustrating. i don't think that i am constitutionally suited for being polite enough to survive in politics, plus, you crack open my closet like a millimeter and so much crack pours out my run for political office is vanished->> i promise not to call you sir, so i'll call you -- [inaudible] >> thank you. i've been called that forever. [laughter] >> especially on the west coast, people being more interested in washington, but how is dc perceived in the industry right now? >> i think it's perceived the same way it is every place, that's it's a complete disastrous mess. [laughter] >> i thought it was supposed to be better with president obama? >> i know, but, you know, what happened was that -- i mean, i don't want to point political fingers because i'm here representing the greater coalition, but i think that, you know, it's going to be hard to change a political culture that is basically turning into a football game. you know, your team versus my team, and it feels to me like president obama tried to change that culture, and unfortunately, you know, he wasn't successful. partly because, you know, his treaties to the other political party were not accepted. you know, it's rough out there especially, you know, i have a great deal of empathy particularly people in congress who have to start raising money and running for reelection the second they are elected, and you know, in order to do that they to to take these strong positions and do stuff that maybe they wouldn't do if they knew they would be around for a couple of years and realliment to get stuff done. >> following on that, stl a sense that if barak obama couldn't do it, and i know you're not partisan, but because he's a democrat, but brought in a young hopeful leader that was beloved by both sides of the aisle, maybe not politically, but is there a hope that if he can't fix the town, and if he hasn't, that the chances of someone else coming in in the next generation is not on the table? >> you know, i don't know, and can't speak for everybody, but i think people are pretty bummed right now and cynical, and that's not to say it couldn't change. i mean, you know, i saw obama and the other candidates through the convention cycle and the incaught ration, and, you know, obama can go like totally jfk, you know, martin luther king. that guy can be really, really inspirational, and if i were to give him any advice it would be to go back to that well because that guy can motivate people and really get people thinking about larger things like, you know, other, like not thinking about yawrs, and, you know, if he could do that again, you know, i think we might have a chance to change the town. >> now, the president was ought the other night introducing himself as barak obama born in hawaii and a candidate for reelection, so 2012 is already engaged, republicans out there scrambling. what do you hold the occasion of the two year campaign ahead of us will be for conversation? what will you. to see -- what will you want to see done or hear about the campaign? >> as i'm here to talk about the arts -- this is the thing -- president obama has a fantastic arts platform, but it's hard to find. you have to search through layers of pull down men -- menus on his website. i want to moved on the plate with the main course, you know? it's our contention the arts are part of our lives, integral part and not to be treated like december cert, so i -- dessert, so i would like him to talk about the arts as the important and vital part of the culture that they are. >> i think we have a microphone, but i wanted to ask you about how you get your information about public policy washington, what news do you follow? >> well, i read all of them. [laughter] all the papers. [laughter] >> just so it's fair; right? [laughter] >> they tell us specifically. [laughter] >> good cop right there. >> you know, i read the new "new york times," span the web. >> "politico"? >> i don't get that, do you get it online? [laughter] you know, i'm you know i go to the "huffington post" and places like that, but i have a healthy amount of skepticism about all it. i talk to my friends. >> i'll ask a question and there's guys that is sort of a conservative publisher who tries to encourage conservatives in hollywood because he lives there to come out the closet in that respect, and i wanted you to talk about, you know, you talk to celebrities and they say hollywood is one thing, and they want to see the bush tax cuts extended, so there are conservatives, 3wu talk about the -- but talk about the republican party in hollywood. who are they? are there a lot of them, or is the reputation of hollywood liberals inaccurate? >> look, it's called show business, you know? [laughter] people like me and a lot of people i'm with, the show part, and the other part is the business part, and, you know, i think traditionally businesses have been more conservative, and there's certainly huge conservatives, you know, constituency in los angeles of republicans, and i think the reputation, you know, that hollywood is liberal because, you know, the entertainers get more press. also, you know, it's funny because i think that you know, when a big movie star or tv star gets in trouble with drugs or has a scandal, it's plastered all over the place, but the ratio of insanity is the same every place, probably in places like "politico" you hire crazies. [laughter] there's crazies every place, and just not everybody hits the front page of "people" magazine. if certain actors stand up for a political cause and makes noise, it gets more press than when the vice president of a movie studio hosts a party at their house. >> all right, playbookers turn. any other questions? i'll ask you, what do you look to do during white house correspondence weekend? you're the nerd -- [laughter] >> you know, i just had this thought. i don't know if this mikes sense, but i have a new definition of the white house correspondence dinner. i don't know if it's app play poe, but my uncle said a horse show is a bunch of horses showing their as to a bunch of other hourses showing their horses. that's kind of what it is to me. [laughter] i don't hope to accomplish anything other than i hope to see somebody that i respect embarrass themselves horribly. [laughter] >> give it time. >> and so what brings you back? >> well, you know, the creative coalition does this arts weekend every year, so that in particular, but, you know, i think it's like -- it's kind of like animals from two different zoos that peer at the bars. i'm impressed by some political cat people, and some impressed by me for some reason, and it's fun. it's fun. it's fun to see the president be funny. he's a hard act to follow. >> how do you think he'll be? >> i don't know. we'll see. >> who do you hope to meet this weekend? >> i'll go big and say the pres. >> have you met him before? >> i have, and i was unbelievably impressed by him. i was in this room of 300 people, and i was the 298th person he met. i said, hello, mr. president, i said i'm tim daly. he said, oh, yeah, you were here to produce that movie. i was like you know that after 298 people? >> i wondered what you learned from that -- [laughter] i wondered what you learned from going behind the scenes with hollywood that might give us a new perspective new lens on what to see in 2012? >> in all due respect, i learned how really dysfunctional the media is in this country and how it's become -- when it became -- when capitalism sort of weed led its way into the news media, everything changed. when the news became not about providing public service and public information and about ratings, things went haywire, and that's been happening for awhile, so there's this race to put out information whether it's true or not, and it's become really, really difficult to fair out the truth in this range of stuff coming at us over the radio, television, and the internet. >> you talked about show business, there's nos business, and there's also a lot of nonprofit news organizations. in the digital world, there's all kinds of media. ampt there more -- aren't there more ways to get bad information than from us? [laughter] >> that's true. when the internet first started to take hold, for me anyway, i would look out and go, wow, look at this story, this is incredible. it looked official like, you know, like, you know, a bonafied media coverage, but it was pure garbage. i hate the word media-literacy because it sounds like you teach reporters how to read -- maybe that's true -- [laughter] trying to find the truth is very difficult. you have to be very careful. >> as a consumer advocate here, what do you recommend to people? there's a lot of young people watching this. somebody who does want to keep up with what's going on, wants to have their voice involved, what do you suggest? >> be skeptical, question everything. do not take anything for granted because there's no -- you know, there's no -- you know, no place where the truth is, you know, always can be counted on. >> a question there. >> hi, tim, patrick. >> hi. >> i think it's great what you're doing, and jason biggs and all the young stars. it does help, and my question is when you talk to mostly republicans who are mostly opposed to the funding over the years, do you think that you've, you know, you make any dent? have you made a dent in the last five years you've been doing it or more? do you see sort of light in their eyes when you talk with them at the dinner and things when you come out here? >> without question. you know, in varying degrees, but i think that, you know, another one of the things that's a disconnect between the perception of artists and the reality is that sometimes when you talk about the arts and the entertainment business, there's a tendency of people again to go to the supermarket tabloid and see somebody melting down or doing something, and that is not the core of what artists or the entertainment community is. most of us are from middle class families from all over the country. we were not born into a class, an entertainment class, and, you know, we've worked very hard and been successful, and the other thing is that i think that making a financial argument is very good for republicans because for instance, you know, the television show that i do now which is not winged by the way. [laughter] that was 20 years ago. it's "private practice" maybe some of you saw it on last night. [laughter] it embarked employees 400 people a week. you talk about small business, that seems to be the montra, cleaners caters, painters, construction workers. when there's tax incentives, i heard people say why should i give tom cruise a tax break? it's not tom, it's people in your community, your hotels filled, cab drivers filled. talk to mayors of small cities, don't take away their regional theater? you know, that means their hotels and restaurants are not filled. it's the life blood of communities. if you can make that case to people who are fiscally conservative republican or democrat, i think it changes their perspective, and they are not thinking about, you know, the people they see on "people" magazine, but the people in communities who really benefit from, you know, things like a local sevenny or a community -- symphony or community theater. >> as we say good-bye in july, it's the 15th season of "private practice" on abc-7 who carries it. pete is going into the 5th season, # what is it that causes longevity and people can relate to it? >> you know, one of the things about it that makes it particularly successful is that the men on the show are women's fantasies of men, the way men should be. [laughter] women love seeing men behaving exactly like they would like them to behave, so we have a large female following. the male following, you know, i'm not so sure about them, but i would say that to the men here if your wife wants you to watch the show or your girlfriend makes you watch, you are entitled to sex. [laughter] insist upon it. [laughter] >> that's news we can use. [laughter] >> thank you for joining us and watching us in our case. >> thank you. [applause] [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> joining us -- joining us now is rosario dawson, thank you for coming in. >> thank you. >> thank you very much for making time for us. you both have a bunch of stops this weekend, and so i appreciate it. this is teresa kumar, the founding directer and rosario dawson is the head of it, and you're both in town among the topic here is voter registration. you talked about registering more voters than ever for 2012. i wonder how you're going to do that? >> we're gearing up with several things and about co-founding this, we build up with the organization for many years, and to be in a position now with so many organizations have to shut down and losing funding and programs are losing, we are just expanding and just opened our first office in l.a., and we have a staff of 16, a lot of people in the ground on a lot of critical states, and we're to a point now where we are not just using technology, but we have -- we just expanded our grass roots organizing where we have much more people on the ground volunteers and community organizing around these issues, and so it's just giving us that much more surface area to work with other people, and obviously other people we worked with from itunes and beyond that we complab rated with ex-- collaborated with expanded our reach. we have destinations as well, and we can reach our audience and with the numbers coming out -- >> we keep joking that three weeks ago the census numbers came out and did you know there were latin -- oh, yeah, maybe some. we've been doing that for the last six years is all the country the -- discovered it three weeks ago. >> maybe talk about that. tell us about sort of how the latino community is remitted in the united states and -- represented in the united states accordingly and what do politicians need to do to listen to and to pay attention to their needs, the desires, not that they are the same, but the issues that are important to them. >> that's what is up credible is -- incredible. it's issue-oriented voting block. you know, talking about the arts earlier, like if you want to be progressive like some of the issues you care about, you have to very much consider the latin vote and war, latinos and war, and he was shooting talking about every day, 18 service members kill themselves. that's really een sane, and when you think about how many overindex, you show something very contribute cam here with the population who want reforms in the area as well. education reform, 98% of parents want their kids to go to college, and 9 #% of kids want to go to college, but 50% drop out of the we want all these things, and that's what is communicating to americans that the la latino vote is the american vote and not thinking them as a separate voting block all the time. that's wonderful about our organization. we are directly talking to them, but what our conversation is something we did with him was our last campaign. we do more than just voter registration. we worked on the census. you know, we are -- our response to sb1070 was to create an organization called united we win. we are the united faces of the america, and we are not united right now. immigrant roots trace back. your family has come from splice else, and the waves coming over many years in history is the thing that started america, and that population right now is latinos. >> when we look at the 2008 map, it's not the same coming in 2012 because of the demographic shift, and that's exciting. all the sudden texas is in play with four new congressional seats and two are slated to be la tee know. the only northern state i joke is utah. [laughter] it's the influx of la tee knows. when we talk about how politicians should be talking they need to talk to them in english, and they have to change the tone of imgracious because there's a lot of people right now on the ground that

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