Transcripts For CSPAN2 The Trial Of Adolf Hitler 20170723

Hello . Can you hear me. Good evening everyone. Just a bit of housekeeping. Please silence all of your cell phones. We dont want them to ring while david king is talking. Also we have cspan filming us so later during the questionandanswer portion if you would please go to the mic on this side so you can be heard i will also ask after the event before the signing if he would please take your chairs and leaned them against something solid just to help us make this door orderly looking again. Okay so at the time when there is a growing sense of unease among sensible people under fascism its important for us to look to the past and analyze the conditions that made fascism possible. Naturally we would turn to our historians as our guide into the murky realm of the past. One such historian david king is here with us today. He said albright scholar that earned his masters from cambridge and a professor who once thought to european History History talked who once taught european history. He is here with us today to read from his new book the trial of adolf hitler the beer hall patsch and the rise of nazi germany. Kirkus radio calls davids new work and astute work of scholarship and business narrative and meticulously researched instructive work with great relevance for arrow white white rightwing resurgence. The writer of the book the good shepard says that davids new book is farcical and ominous and an observing detailed account of her crucial often overlooked chapter in hitlers rise. Those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Please let us welcome david king. [applause] thank you very much. Thank you for coming out here today and being here. Can everyone hear me okay . I am used to roaming when i talk so i will try to stand behind here and change the podium and see how that goes. I want to make sure everyone can hear me but thank you very much for coming out here today. Its a pleasure for me to be here. The publisher was going to book the tickets and im like no, no we will make it a road trip. I have a very special guest over here. No more a pristine experiences of what a wonderful bookstore here. Imagine for a moment catching adolf hitler alive and following him into a courtroom and putting them on trial for his crimes or its partners crimes. This is sometimes a dream, sometimes a premise or a fantasy and many novels have been written about this. It actually happened. February 26, 1924, 9 years before hitler came to power hitler entered the courtroom to stand trial for high treason. In november of 1923 hitler had stormed into a crowded beer hall fired a pistol into the air and declared a National Revolution had begun. The National Revolution did not begin. Instead hitler eventually was arrested after hiding out and actually staying in the attic of a germanamerican woman who left an incredible unpublished memoir of hitler for the weekend but this was the socalled beer hall prutsch. Hitler had become a laughingstock in many circles. His career seemed to be over. Even the greatness papers the great newspapers wrote an obituary on the party. The news york times announced hitlers career as being over and i probably should have been over. What happened to . It may not be what you think. It wasnt what i thought when i started researching this. I started researching this book five years ago, five years full time. I had just finished my previous book death in the city of light which takes place in germany. He started chopping people up and got rich from his account. I was looking for something a little less dark and ended up here. I went down the list of history topics. The list seemed to get longer every book i would write seem to get longer rather than shorter. I was chasing down one wild idea after the next. One wild goose chase after the next. I went to it and it was very exasperating for my wife. All the while the topic was there in front of me. One of my favorite sites when i used to teach at the university of kentucky was on the beer hall prutsch. I would bring in my millions of german marks that my motherinlaw come this with his motherinlaw that she had and raqqa and these marks and pass them around. This was always something that really interested me not just as a economic and social cultural and psychological ordeal. Exchange rate is 4. 3 to 1 dollar on the eve of world war i, 8 1 and it does 500 to one, thousand one, a million to one. Eventually goes down to hundreds of millions and bottoms out in the trillions. Your life savings wont even buy a cup of coffee in the old sense. Red cabbage in munich at this time cost 10 times at the market. Thats what i originally thought of. There had been a book on the putsch in 30 years and i thought the story had a lot going for it. It had a turning point and the drama the ballot, the hyperinflation nightmare and apocalypse of capitalism it seemed at the time yet conspirators were plotting a revolution and Young Adolf Hitler Heinrich Himmler and many others. Members of the third reich all young six people of the centerburg war crimes trial are to hear and if you want to learn something about someone, one way look at when they were young. I had understand munich at the time because i was struck by the shift in munich. What a sophisticated culture city. Painters and poets and romantics and dreamers and bohemians. Had he become a haven for the far right plex if it can happen in munich, who is save . As i got into this but couldnt believe i hadnt done a book in 30 years but as i started researching i was struck. All the wonderful books and scholarship on adolf hitler they classic biographer ace there had never book, full book on the trial in the english language. In way that is one of the first books i read as a teenager was an oxford professor sink efforts college the nuremberg trial expert and an expert on it. He said he was always the most impressive hitler during the trial. His political skills were never more revealed and during the trial he said. But yet there had never been a book. I thought this is astonishing. I thought there must be something wrong. That was a dealbreaker for me many times. I had this wonderful story and there werent enough good credible sources because writing history if you have sources, you cant make it out. Its all from the source. I have never done historical fiction so i would be lost. When i started looking at the sources i found out with this trial it was a goldmine. The trial transcript itself almost 3000 pages, the complete unabridged copy of the original german transcript verbatim dialogue hour after hour of hitler on the stand fencing with his opponents or just attacking them as he tries and does score with the audience. The Munich Police files thousands and thousands of agents here. It was incredible. They linked the interrogations with many of the ringleaders Alfred Rosenberg highenriched hitler, Heinrich Hoffmann and many other people. They start the Party Offices and confiscated the inventory. The paintings on the wall. I found they found a picture as they booked to gypsies. It was almost like the mental pompeii. All that was there. The damage to the beer hall come into being the beer hall manager. It was incredible. He had papers of the lawyers at the trial growth prosecution and defense. One of my favorites is a nonpublished deputy prosecutor to reviews pitt learned after he interviewed them for the first time he was not impressed. Among other things in this file you had the admission passes to get in because they were very much afraid of riots, attacks and thugs and hooligans coming in. You have to use special passes and his was there. Memoirs and of course there was hate mail. Hate mail of the prosecutor including some from United States. Going after patriot like hitler, memoirs besides the obvious was published ones. Hitlers bodyguard, there he was in munich. He gets shot up jumping in front of hitler. Maybe he saved his life. The valet the guy walking arm in arm with hitler dies. His valet at broder published memoir. Its on and on and on. Publish handwritten notes of the man who hid hitler in her attic. Now hitler is blaming people for the failure. There is a plan get hitler away before the police come and they come eventually including she gets a plumber who is has a motorcycles the plan was to put them on the sidecar of the motorcycle. Hitler didnt go for that. Other writings, the letters of goerings wife who is swedish that she wrote home to her family in sweden and this is always fun because when i was in germany i had to struggle. Reading is one thing but swedish is a verbal language. There were letters and swedish describing the time of the nine nine the time of the putsch and the job offers that goering had in the meantime. Or how a jewish family, kind jewish family say that goering or at least tended to his wounds when he got shot at the putsch. Of course the files achieve captured by the u. S. Army had all these interviews with troopers. The u. S. Army captured this. This was available on microfilm so i had copies of these at home and they are fabulous reads. Theres also the report that the u. S. Vice consul claim to run across hitler and he did later on but he did not at this time. The files that i researched in a the previous puppy they discovered these files in mizoram burr free market they end up in a flea market. The apartment had been robbed and years later everybody was in prison. That was a wonderful surprise. The trial opened every 26, 1924 in the dining hall of the academy because they didnt have a room big enough or secure enough. There was a massive undertaking. Nothing like this in germany several newspapers said. There was a team of judges 24 days of proceedings that reporters came from all over germany and europe france and Great Britain scandinavia and elsewhere. It was a sensational trial and scandals from the getgo. Hitler would take the stand chief defended hour after hour and had this great federal boys. It was not quite as shrieking as we are used to it seems that the press covered this in great detail and describing how he would speak and how he would move and if you ever heard him when he is not screaming its unsettling. Just lowering his voice is pretty frightening. Up close, crossed the room hitler and his narcissism and megalomania. One journalist in the audience future Pulitzer Prize winner h. R. Knickerbocker said hitler is probably the greatest spellbinder of all times and then he says actually is probably number two. One person has a better speaker than hitler was chomsky. Hitler under pressure as acting in the spotlight and hes getting a growing following. Troops did not want to stand the way of a good line. He had a famous boast of Seven Members in the backroom. The body was asa movement for hitler. The police files, they tried to get the files that they didnt get the files but one of the workers in the office wrote a letter, like 55,787 members. So hitler with take the crowd and all the while speaks to the crowd going to you might say the least intelligent person around. This is not theater the judge would say many times. And hitler spoke not to the courtroom buts to the presiding judge who had his own reasons. It was another big surprise to me. The judge was a nationalist and he was but he had Something Else going on. I dont want to spoil it. He had Something Else going on and because of that hitler is speaking to the biggest audience hes ever had. Its not just a beer hall in munich but a courtroom and judges from all over germany and the world. This is his first major autobiography and he uses it to spread apology about himself. This was an incredible moment in history in many ways. The authorities had hitler in their hands. He faced high treason. He did not deny it. In fact he bragged about it. The law was on the side of the prosecutors. Lengthy prison sentence and deportation. After all hitler was not german. He was austrian and the law said he should be deported as a foreigner. This was a chance to remove him. Instead day by day glowing reviews in circles of the far right and by the end of the trial they spell hitler with two ts or when hitler is bragging about his military background its Lieutenant Colonel hitler. These mistakes would be less and less common is the trial goes on by the end of hitler is far more powerful than ever before. Hes not just a buffoon, hes becoming more of a National Figure than he had been before. Some thought a National Hero in a National Martyr so he turns the tables. I thought the traitor was the government. Thats the enemy. The court will send them off to to mein kampf the basis for some of it and rebuild his party which had been banned in this is actions and seemed like hitler was on the way to the dustbin of history. The putsch and the trial. The trial of hitler is not just sensational terrific or terrible scandal as many reporters noted at the time. It was a catastrophe. He was not locked up as the law required nor was he deported. He would be released on parole and as it turns out hitler was even on parole and went to the beer hall. He committed the crime at the beer hall and he was already on parole. So he gets out and find more effective ways to undermine the constitution and the fragile democracies. Thank you. [applause] does anybody have any questions . Let me ask the first question. Im from the caribbean but i grew up in the netherlands and when i went to the netherlands there was a tremendous rage against germany at that time. Things have changed but i remember that. This leaves a few questions. The first question is and i dont know if you have it in your book but a book is being published 10 or 15 years ago now about the problem with the german legal system that the german legal system and one of my backgrounds is a lawyer, studied in the netherlands but the importance is the premise of the book is that the german legal system in the late 1800s, 1890s to the beginning of the 1900 had been undermined with a profound sense of antisemitism and it basically was taken by the nazis. Thats the first question to the second question is hitler uses a lot of the modeling that was going on in the United States in germany. What do you have to say about that and do you see that developing in this Political Program and ultimately the last one would be you know he never won the majority of the popular vote in germany, rightclick to get rid of the parliament but he got enough of the popular vote to be able to be in power so do you see all of these issues playing out and maybe a last question. Do you see a potential danger of not hitler but someone like hitler coming into power . Yes, thank you. Oh yeah. I think antisemitism definitely , one of the problems they had with the system was they were making a republic. A lot of the judges who enforce the laws were still monarchists were not removed from power. The judge in this case was very much an oldstyle monarchist and never really came to terms with this republic idea. This was germanys first republic. Fragile and it would be racked from within as hitler comes into power as you said ever having the popular vote. I think that was one thing that we see here. There was a statistician in the 1920s that reviewed the many cases of the german legal system like 1919 up to 1922 and 350 plus rightwing suspects. The vast majorities are going to be led off with basically a slap on the wrist and if you compare it to the suspects on the left on the other hand which were far fewer. I have a lot of this in the book and you can see where they would have much harsher sentences, 10 to 12 years much more than the far right. The german historian for example talked about how this legal system, this wellspring for the rise of the third reich because of the legal system. There are wonderful books you can read and i will refer you to if you know how develops from the age of bismarck. From the weimar and when hitler comes in the Peoples Court is the institution in munich at the time and hitler will be great in the Peoples Court. He wont let them talk. They just let him talk and talk and talk. I think you raise a lot of good points about the antisemitism and the structural challenges that they would have. I have one followup to what you just said. I am a lawyer and what was it about the law that gave hitler such an advantage . We have had other people who talked about the third reich and how important it was that lawyers cooperated with him like the guy who ran poland for example and there was something about the legal system that the as authoritarianism or would get easier when they came to work for hitler and it also can get in with the kind of law that they had. What was it about the law . I think there are a couple of things. That is another strategic play. And they have a lot to hide because of the versailles treaty it seems like germany was not even guarded. They had very strict rules on what you could have after the war with a large army there were limits to everything they are hiding the guns and the church like a dueling society a fraternity they are there but they dont want this out because the french papers are wonderful sources because they were interested in what they were suspecting along. With these patriotic societies like the storm troopers who would help in the army because they would help shield them so that is what they have to guard they dont want that to come out so they have a lot of things of the time like the judge is trying to protect. The way i understand it is the speaker was not heat teller and he claimed he was the drummer you may have a different view but so how did hitler displace ludendorff as a leader . This is a great question so actually it would be the general state commissioner this was right at the height of that. Almost with strong executive powers so they had an invitation that night when they would speak. But ludendorff actually saw him that afternoon but they will send three or 4p rollout. Or generals of world war i and then they cause germany to lose the war with a reckless campaign. He pretends not to be associated with it. And he wore civilian clothes and then they have the tendency to do these budget you are right there is another transition. They can stand back for a lot of reasons but but as the trial goes on the then you can see the press reports but then over time there are a few others but you do see hitler placing him because hitler will take responsibility. So they say he blames the ready except himself. So those wonderful french communist papers with that general who is scared to be convicted he does not, will idle. That is a disaster the people that vote for them is less than 3 . I am also under the impression and then to advise the kaiser. And with that breakdown it is interesting watching him at the trial because he is getting hammered. Does this seem like a general . He seems more like a kid that cadet. He seems like the ass. So there is a discreet german socialist m ludendorff is like a loose cannon. So he says stuff just like that. But then he says im a catholic by catholic he makes no mistake to say he is an antisemite that is very clear at trial but he is uniting the far right. One person said because of those other thinkers with anticatholic and anti christian but hitler tries to unite them. With a small part of the far right. In this watching them go down as they go up. Some historians say a political assassination and started the Second World War du see any parallel between japan and this trial . I dont know what about the japanese trial. I read about nuremberg but of that trial i do not know enough. If the worldwide depression did not of her eating cannot seize could have taken power . But dont you think antisemitism is far less than france or russia or Eastern Europe . This is 19th century and prehitler. The first one it is always hard to say what could have happened so without it it is hard to say if it didnt happen but it is almost unthinkable. So you can see the nazis did very well but by december there already losing a lot. And then the nazis get the most votes they will never get. What about antisemitism as opposed to Eastern Europe and france . Set to go back to some of those lectures like austria or france or germany for those five years and we have Great Respect so a fight to go back to the late 19th century i dunno off the top of my head. I dont know myself enough to say how much worse esparto in germany and austria and france. Also the National Socialist were well before the germans and they were working elsewhere. And a lot of those same people that we think of at the time they had International Routes being at the Cultural Center i would guess to be far behind a lot of these places white austria and france. I thank you are right. With liberal democracies want to redo with extremist . So did hitler directly engaged in acts of violence . If he did why did he throw the book at them . He did. He encouraged them because the people sign up for a the storm troopers. I dont know how accurate that was but that was his claim eliot the first ones to show up and he would tell people dont come out. Dont come out unless they carry out. That was one way to win the streets and theyre already doing a. That is one of the things about the trial they are afraid the storm troopers will do this again. So he definitely is using violence and attacking a rival speaker he attacked a guy because even if they praise us they are writing about us. We have time for two more questions. My vendor standing the National Government was a modern socialist ever meant and did that relationship have any effect how strong this is prosecuted . Yes. Because there is a big dispute the child never should have been in munich. The people support it was illegal. So that should not exist anymore. The trial should have taken place with all of these traders and it should have taken place there. So it looks like there was a compromise. Just like when they tried to kick out hitler. So there is a huge rivalry and in fact, there really seems when hitler barges in and he is upsetting their plans. So there really plays into the rivalry and that complicates the trial and is illegal. I just want to congratulate you on the book i wrote a book a yearandahalf ago around the same time not concentrating only on the trial but so i have read most of it the most important i have read the trial page notes in great detail and your research is phenomenal it is prodigious work and now just reading the notes on sources. You have a fabulous book as well. But this is the first book in english written of the trial you cannot believe that when he found that out there has never been there regular full size book written in german of this trial. So i have read most of it is fascinating taking new day by day through the trial. Congratulations. [applause]. We ask how many were it in germany before the war . And was listed as less than 1 and by my colleagues went hegemony went down. There were very few. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]