In this one volume with its overall size but to encapsulate the entire story with the articles of confederation that led to a the constitution that captures the Amazing Things during that period and the other speaker is a librarian at the American Philosophical Society and the editor of this terrific new volume on the American Revolution i also want to plug is book for a the politics of war please give a great welcome to michael and patrick. [applause]. So we will try to talk about in refashion americas founding in with that in mind i would like to start with you patrick so what do you take to beat the traditional narrative . What do we tell ourselves about . We know the story very well it begins with the stamp act the crisis of the colonys coming together for the first time to announce their opposition to the policy that leads to the twoparty in the boston massacre and independence the story is focused on the eastern seaports the end of boston itself and there is an emphasis and what scholars trying to do is ban that narrative but also the countryside and beyond why the revolution happened when it did. And the other areas as well. So your book here in the beginning has a provocative title so what was the impetus behind offering this book put. Mattis to the marketing people. [laughter] if he spent four or five years donnybrook and marketing gets a hold of it they give you 24 hours for i wanted to call the something else. I wanted to write a short book for 30 series the unalienable rights they didnt have a volume on the constitution i had written a volume on equality in history and they were looking for a short book and then i got interested in the primary sources as of the secondary literature but then more it occurred to me there is not one book that tells the whole story. Like on the Philadelphia Convention or the articles of confederation, but nobody has tried to tell the story through ratification through the bill of rights. Is a marvelous book and i highly recommend it to everyone. One of the issues that you both explore is to the degree the American Revolution and the constitutional the other hand it is a product of the American Publics preferences but what you can do in is complicate the public opinion. So how does the American Public . To be mobilized and motivated minority so generally speaking to support of the American Revolution 60 percent of of population opposes the American Revolution so if you look at Abraham Lincoln bacon have a huge impact on the course of american history. In terms of demographics demographics, a food tended to support the revolution or neutral . That is exactly what historians had started. And part of that reexamination to look at it as an event of multifaceted so there are many people and has passed through that they begin to support the cause. They were opposed, but generally speaking the farms were largely neutral and the seaports were generally supported as part of the Imperial Administration or apparatus. And endoscopes list to native americans were supportive of the revolution they thought there were trying to restrain their expansion west. Every colony has its own story. Turning to Us Constitution again put those pushing us to the Constitutional Convention in retaining those articles of confederation . Payment there is a consensus among americans that the articles about working very well. In the states widthwise declined to contribute they cannot coercive they raise troops and Congress Makes treaty with though coercive authority and the states dont agree with the particular treaty provision. With the spirited minority and sent to the philadelphia and ended up scrapping be articles from day number one shifted the power much more dramatically to the National Level than people anticipated or wanted on another dimension it was a fundamental change and they wanted very much to constrain popular influence to set to up the indirect elections that was an effort to prevent ordinary americans from playing a large direct role less for what they had taken in the 1780s with economic turmoil to have to much democracy then the farmers would get the framers thought those laws were irresponsible compensation redistribution of wealth in so that was very troubling. They wanted to set up a system to constrain that we dont have opinion polls. We dont know exactly what ordered ordinary americans thought but most agree roughly half the country opposed the constitution but most americans were somewhere in the middle. They thought the articles were flawed the constitution had gone too far in the opposite direction it would have preferred an intermediate option but the framers were skilled to keep them off the table. One of the wonderful things to the degree the essay brings the American Revolution down. We think of it as a grand and glorious event but forget how would affected the lives of everyday americans. Talk about those stories and how of revolution was transforming give transforming give. How did it transformed america . In 1777 philadelphia was an occupied city. New york city itself was the headquarters. In Newport Rhode island what is it like to live through that experience . What is it like to be a farmer in the countryside when all of the sudden you have britishamerican forces coming to your farm taking your supplies to feed your family . What was the American Revolutionary like wax that is separate how would transform america or history then you have to go back to the declaration of independence and the constitution tuesday the transformer did the fact of the revolution berger their twostory is the war in the coming of the revolution the legacy that the declaration independence and all manner created equal and the constitution of a federal government and a constitution that we are all governed by. I think we move pass those experiences. So to what degree do we think about it from the American Revolution to the bill of rights as a continuous narrative . I dont. I consider myself a historian in my specialty is the coming American Revolution and they do see that as a very different period but i cannot create a coherent narrative because it changes the way people behave. When i am looking at the 17 sixties those of our available there is an explosion of the evidence even his starkly to be much better and different sources available a think the columnist the colonists had a different mindset and now you have a continuous narrative that begins with the revolution and has the story of the constitution today. Returning to what you said earlier, talk about how democratic the constitution bias to say placing it in the context of other nations at the time . The Philadelphia Convention the ratifying delegates that would have seen as profoundly democratic but from our perspective it doesnt look that democratic africanamericans were enslaved they did not anticipate pour people with property but with respect to the world that was the biggest parade world had never seen and where 8090 percents of the white males participated so the constitution in massachusetts was ratified by delegates in virtually every but he was in franchise. Having said that understand that as a counterrevolution against even more Democratic Forces set in force by the revolutionary war. Said pennsylvania had the most democratic constitution adopted in the nation in 1776, annual elections, one house legislature, they did not want the upper house to constrain the people. A week governor, judges held limited terms cover requirements of Public Meetings and public unlike the philadelphia of content convention close to the public even at the statehouse and you had to give people a chance before a lot to go into effect. People like madison hamilton washington were aghast that so much democracy had led to these laws in the mid70s and wanted to move in the direction of government to be more constrained and could shut down these populist forces madison wanted to give a veto over any law passed by the state but they did write a provision to bar the states from the paper money laws or passing debtor relief with the idea the National Government with six years senators and four year president s in direct Elections Electoral College college, enormous constituency in the original house of 65 members so the entire country have over 350 delegates and congress had 365 they thought the larger the constituency the more likely to elect the affluent people of the community and the more constituency the more independence the representative would have. So they were profoundly antidemocratic in the directions because they thought he could not trust the average person in government. They thought that is what happened that is why hamilton favored lifetime tenure president. That was extreme dead delegations actually vote for the lifetime tenure president because they thought they would be adequately protected. One quick thing as is often in the case in the electionyear people have questions how we got the Electoral College. [laughter] so where did that come from and what was the rationale quick. They thought that congress would pick the president that is the way most state contra constitutions work that they pick the governor said they agreed the president would be selected by congress of a single term of seven years but the problem that would deprive of the ability to be reelected so without problem is fixed by congress he is dependent on congress for reelection so the whole point of having independent president to check congress to give them the veto. But if he was dependent upon them on reelection he would be learys so direct election by the people that their birth problems. First of all, they did not trust the people with that task. One of my favorite quotations is george mason says asking people to choose the chief magistrate is like referring to the choice of colors of the blind man. They did not trust the people her also southern slaves would not count 40 was slaves than they thought they should count to increase the south and the nation and finally the small states would never have a president before transportation so they figured people in the large states would promote their candidate pennsylvania you for wilson but the small states would never have a president so the Electoral College enable them to a compromise berger you want have the president picked directly by the people but the state legislature deciding how elect doors are chosen they assume they would exercise independent judgment then they picked it that one would get greater clout than the election the smaller has a great opportunity so the number of house members and senators but virginia by far is 12 times the population of delaware but in the Electoral College yatter senators and house members that means there is told electors from virginia or three like delaware now the house members include slaves because of the 3 5 rule and there were other complications work gabelli to extend that first of all, the direct election never works because now we have the popular election with the delegates. But in terms of apportionment it gives the voters in wyoming more power than california prepared has five electoral votes wyoming has three that is the 18 one disparity but california has 70 times the population so unless you can account why wyoming voters are discriminated and they deserved enhanced power in the Electoral College pfft crystal defense for its any more it is just inflated power to choose a president but did is the same objection white everybody has the same two senators with 70 times the population that is a power play by the small states. They tried to justify for philosophical reasons why this most days would be overwhelmed really it was just a power play and they will walk out. Sorry that was long winded. [laughter] but we often think of the American Revolution for independence but as the first civil war but what is that narrative . Ken doubledays civil war and sec in boston supporting the American Revolution as reason for rebeling in the british tradition for the revolution you had a loyalist being targeted for their beliefs and patriots targeted by loyalist as well neutrality. If you are neutral if if you could not be neutral if your war was in your backyard you have to be one side or the other for the countryside was far off factions against faction stepfamily the first floor of part for the absolute definitive is a full 45 absolutely is a civil war fife but uh tough defamation is above vigil life individual life fit has to be be the people it is less of a tough division off and of bill of rifle era of the new fund negative sharing your tough about half still negative 51 to to move the direction of any state has a cousin with veto power the legislature this exercise faugh they agreed for a unitary executive for to have the president for life from different parts of the puff and of president fidel and pelted was a fan of the fruit of the. Proposed pact pretty thought if the congress ever caught is overrun so they wanted a powerful executive that is different from being imposed tenures earlier. By transferring power away from the of people and the allegis later legislature excellent. We think of it as of battle between good and evil and the british empire. What was the rationale for the realism . And why did they reject this . I may have then a loyalist. If you were born in the 1740s you are maturing in the wealthiest most prosperous empire the world has ever known. Parliament, a monarch that works collaborative lee unlike most other models in europe with their british constitution and british liberty and the ada to overthrow that . Why would adb a loyalist quicks look at the empire the strongest most wealthy empire in the world. Economic freedom, individual rights and the stamp act the money raised from that is to find military on the american frontier that doesnt back to Great Britain and its just offsets the cost of north america. Sure we have to pay our fair share we have a great trading empire why would i take this risk on something new that could possibly fail . Spin again day similar question. What was driving george mason as the federalist opposed of constitution . As they charge against the constitution to create the aristocracy. The data like media to have six year terms they dont like the adl perpetual eligibility for reelection or people offered allowed to recall representatives of they think theyre readying aristocrats and they cannot govern themselves. The in some sense that is about americans not wanting to pay with daewoo regard as theyre fair share. This is a fight over taxation. You could force the pace with the heavy regressive taxes but if you ratify the federal government will take over the import duties maybe they will assume the state debt you have to pay these heated taxes so the tax rate will go down that is what happened under hamiltons policies. To say they will raise your taxes with a swarm of revenue collectors across the land and they will have to raise money of all the trappings of royalty. That is a dollar that the days significant part theyre fighting over the farmers 90 percent are connected with the farm they say give the congress the ability to regulate International Commerce to pry open a the markets of europe the problem is United States was being shut out of trade and the producers for of the food and virus for a free roussel raf the fluff ferrer fife if a favor for laugh negative 574 the his the the states fiscal laugh file for the physician fife for for a favor for a few should support this call for the value of your land will go up but on the other hand the state legislatures have been responsive as saving you by foreclosure passing debt relief, paper money, to monetize the wealth and paid taxes, that will be shut off by the constitution if faugh. Now the government for food distaff faugh puff of soleil are fighting over interest that is not how the debate was conducted. Faugh for even structured for. Flu of tranfive puff fluff weve won fuss flow of roof to roof afoul. Politics can be noble i think politics is from a different enterprise for these are among of pride if for they thought george mason hated to leave howff to travel away from fairfax but then he showed up for a George Washington was five surf to retire from public life for 78 the death of of good service for 5 1 4 l. Flynn and food to this virtuous place said they were lining their pockets and basically wanted a federal government to raise taxes to pay off the government at face value faugh plaid is roughly eight food think about it. The have the vision of Good Government and good Economic Policy that comes from their status if there is a big difference of opinion the best way to do things but they are incredibly talented public spirited people faugh puff. That is the lesson to take away people like that going into gulf pat. I take your project to draw out a new narrative but what might 50 the things you want to draw out . I think there is a real need for the traditional narrative the stamp act or imperial crisis. Is a wellknown and clear narrative. But i also think mr. Confronting different issues that challenge the narrative. My book looks at the coming American Revolution of the frontier. There are two revolutions and all of these rebellions like the stamp act and the tea party from defense policies with the native americans it complicates the more wellknown narrative prokofiev for it shows it was always there a diverse as a place in the Education System for remember that traditional narrative stephen flood of other faiths and this from a safe for was a fort that was filed violent and bloody. One of the faith that fish choses the American Revolution and shows it is henceforth battles in in europe from the caribbean if an offer of america north america. Processing will narrative voice have then been complex with the events of the fluff to construct one narrative to undermine the American Revolution. I am beginning to sort through the questions from the audience. Staff for this essene 5 7 and ford about the ratification monmouth steve if they had different views of ravens favors that dave could be subject to us impaired to those articles and the press of a vivid military power for the army or navy address to a polish tougher foe that they could safe taxes and of a wooden leg deal of money so eventually you could pay off the dead. Painewebber spawned it was much less likely they did not think there was the envy for the need food so was about the defense of vision and for first iff perspective madoff fit could fall apart with issue fee if confederacys of the save funds that leads of an antiballistic said you are crazy. There is no reason to. Says that include all women quite. That is what this does do is the of families that are torn apart. This is an opportunity for women wear a day are pressured to be a part of this brash british affair it was called the quaker exile. Have you heard of that . One of the things that happened blair radical militiamen the Famous Artist involved targeted the wealthiest quaker in philadelphia that was a pacifist they were arrested habeas corpus was suspended from it to the freemason building half and shipped to virginia and spending full plants in turd and the whitman petitioned George Washington to free them eventually he supported the cause and then they rasher back into philadelphia. This is an incredible story cutting across of the people how American Revolution. Event on the front teethirty indians were at the core. One article looks at how slavery was treated at the south and in fact, they use this to capture slaves from the loyalist. So that is the narrative. It is extraordinarily diverse and multifaceted. If the majority of the electorate came from the constitution and how did that pass quick. Great question. [laughter] it was inevitable that it would a couple of states voted against ratification rhode island, New Hampshire was going to but they managed to adjourn it was incredibly close so in new york and virginia 89 79 massachusetts if one or two ahead rejected there is a good chance the union could not be successful. Euclidean say it was read day of a little bit if you were inclined. [laughter] one was of media or the press there were 90 newspapers at the time only 12 would publicize any significant amount of the antifederalist literature newspapers were published to entirely in cities even a 90 lived outside of the city and the subscribers and advertisers overwhelmingly supportive of ratification they bled to withhold their subscriptions and advertising if they dared to publish any essays part of that was the non in pennsylvania. So in some states the antifederalist could barely get the opinions heard. Then there was apportionment in South Carolina as the population moved west they would redistribute power people started on the eastern seaboard. This South Carolina ratifying convention was the same as the legislature 20 percent of the whites were overwhelmingly supportive of the constitution. Those 20 percent elected 60 and even though most historians agree if they would have voted no if there was strong opposition they voted to slash one in favor. So of lawyers and overwhelmingly supported ratification. So that meant they had an advantage so that packwoods former would be intimidated out of speaking from the adversaries of they had another vantage their purple finally they created article seven of the constitution to specify once the nine states at ratified it goes into operation but that is different from the articles you had to get all 13 states to ratify any amendment put under the constitution they did put into operation but think about the pressure on the remaining four states once the nine states ratify the reason you nation if you choose not to go along like North Carolina you are denied federal military protection, trade discrimination as congress is actually threatening them with tariffs, a kind of important decisions like where it is the National Capital or how to amend the constitution the last four were pressured and that is the end of the game most of those that were resistant came late if they went earlier they could ever rejected because the issue was already resolved they just fell into line so was very gratuitous and easily could have come out the of their way just due to miscalculations. It was also a guess or no and the question do we keep the articles . Do you support the constitution or not . Yes or no i think would help them. It is critically important sanders stood they thought the articles needed to be reformed most americans would have preferred something in between the articles were flawed most probably would have perfervid somewhere in the middle of the spectrum they desperately tried to give them the alternative choice because most americans would have preferred something that they were not getting in with those procedural mechanisms and then to keep those of the table view could affect a Second Convention it was rented and private. Was the surprise now theres a National Debate and decent twoway new convention or you could have ratification conditions so to do what they are promising we can give you amendments down the road because we dont believe your promises. They made legal arguments in policy arguments but the real reason they of rejected the alternative that you would water down uh documents they drafted in philadelphia and that is what they wanted. How they manage to get away with that is a great question. [laughter] you surprised us little welded want to change but they managed to convince them it was up or down and bear the got away with it. In light of the strength of your book, i am curious of your primary sources where are they . Diaries or letters greg. Of first tories were told by what was printed and available. Now theyre trying to uncover those hidden stories where a 30 million pages of manuscripts we have Hidden Treasures we dont know about. Retry to support scholars and historians to give new meaning to these documents. They give them meaning. That is where the other stories come into play. Had you get the voice of the enslaved x so diaries are sources there is incredible dirae from James Allen Fox in pennsylvania somebody a loyalist in the middle absolutely opposed to every imperial policy. He is a patriot and the declaration of independence happened. Gigots out to a farmer use targeted and harassed at the same time use corresponding with john adams because they are friends. Of course, there are pamphlets and other materials as well. Talk about those primary sources greg. Incredible documentary collections something call uh documentary history of the constitution of project ongoing since 1970 now 27 volumes not quite done. They at between 400 and 500 pages apiece of letters and diaries newspaper essays and they literally have gone around the world as the most interesting letters are written by astute observers that interested and reporting back and then collected these great letters from John Quincy Adams you just graduated and is apprenticing breaking his College Friends and it turns out he is the antifederalist heating so will create an aristocracy then somebody points out the irony you have been president he said kids do crazy things. [laughter] soy think of gordon would as a historian with is cray intellectual history of thought and political thought from the revolutionary war to the constitution. It was published 1969 i think of him driving around in a beatup car and light can sit at my computer it is digitized. Tiepin documentary history or a state james madison. The madison papers. The hamilton papers. They have their own collection and is edited by experts they take with their referring to with an offhand references it is unbelievable to have this luxury then teaching at harvard i have all these students who wanted to work and collect letters and check my sources come in his of luxury. I did not travel at all but is all available on your laptop that the university of virginia in a digitized. I do have some worries about that most are from printed sources and the papers of the founders in the rotunda and database is incredible that means people preference the comfort of their desk to the Hard Research that they think reveals the everyday experience he will not get the diary of a woman on a plantation used to have to go to the archives and i worry Going Forward they will prefer a the over the archival. I am also worried because the kids right now in grade school are not learning cursive. It is true. In 50 years the historians of the generation will not be able to read the original sources only the printed sources. They cannot read their grandparents for our loved digitization i rely on it but at the same time we have concerns. What was the most surprising thing that you learned quite. Piece of human skin. [laughter] that was an artifact there is a young scholar working on up project examining the history of this piece of skin. She doesnt yet have all the answers to that is a totally new approach but it will uncover a great story. Also working on environmental history how does that impact history . Because the columnist colonists relied on gunpowder that was provided by Great Britain. They did not have a manufacturing base. So he details the attempts to create the homegrown gunpowder manufacturing industry. But the new approaches to environmental history. That was interesting. What was the most surprising thing that you learned quite. We abkhazia constitution but the fairly political nature of the debate of political maneuvering with the articles under confederation and day import most of their goods through new york. Fascination, threats of violence, people try to dual in some places. Alexander hamilton is saying different thing ins philadelphia than he says in the noosew York Convention and one of the other delegates from new york is at the convection and says hamilton in philadelphia you wanted to destroy the states and now you are celebrating the role of the state and hamilton said i resent that. People think they will end up in a dual in the summer of 1788. They manipulate the accounts in the newspaper quoting some