hear three really excellent talks on that theme tonight. each speaker is gonna speak for about 15 minutes so felly short presentations and that's gonna leave us plenty of time for questions and discussion at the end and you can type your questions into the q&a box at any time throughout the evening and we will respond to those later after all. he talks have taken place. so we're looking forward to hearing your questions and feedback very much. that's part of the excitement for us going into this evening. our first speaker tonight is going to be dr. caroline wood newhall, and she's very well known around here because she works as the postdoctoral fellow at the virginia center for civil war studies here at virginia tech before that. she earned her phd at unc chapel hill. she's working on a book about black pow w experiences in the confederacy. and by the way, she gave a terrific talk on that topic last fall soon after she arrived in blacksburg, which is now available at the youtube channel for the virginia center for civil war studies. you should be able to find that easily enough and is also in the c-span website. it was broadcast on c-span 3 shortly after she delivered it. so tonight her topic is interest convergence the us effort to recruit black soldiers. thank you, dr. newhall. thanks. thank you so much paul. i appreciate the introduction and i want to say thank you so much to leland and caroline honeycutt leland shelton and caroline honeycutt from the continuing of professional education center. they've been doing so much work on this. so thank you. this has been so smooth and i don't know if it would have been without you. so we appreciate that. so, yes, thank you so much. so i'll just jump right into it don't have too much time, and i don't want to hold you on too long and cut into the other panelists. so long story short my research really centers on ideas and applications of how legal conditions created by warfare created circumstances that people could take advantage of that might not have been previously available to them primarily through looking at black prisoners of war who fought for the union were captured by the confederacy. and so tonight what i'm looking at is the idea of interest conversions and how recruitment among black americans. particularly in the south particularly enslaved black americans black men in particular led to these kind of initially positive results such as emancipation, but had some significant limitations when it came to achieving equality, but the ways i'm going to talk about this center on how black americans were able to find common ground with the united states as a national entity and and take advantage of that and push the united states to meet them partway at the very least and and make some civil rights gains. whereas the confederacy largely failed to do. this had the confederacy made efforts to the degree that the united states had we might be experiencing a different story and then centering on how black americans in the south especially formally enslaved people managed to use the war to affect their freedom essentially. so i will share my screen now apologies for whole setup. all right. there we go. so interest convergence the us effort to recruit back soldiers, and i want to open up with this idea of what interest convergence is now interest convergence is a particular topic that comes through in critical race theory which has come out of this idea of legal realism a lot of legal scholars historians numerous people have undertaken this work led by professor derek bell and trying to understand how racism and the law coincide in the united states and the ways in which the law can achieve certain things but also runs into limitations when it comes to affecting a quality and and achieving ideals versus what happens in reality. so when i'm talking about interest conversions, i'm using it in a specific context that might not necessarily be as familiar to people who might know about interest convergence and critical race theory essentially the idea behind interest convergence is that there are times where civil rights gains for communities of color coincide with the dictates of white self-interest meaning that the ruling classes the ruling powers those who pass laws who are part of the legislature the executive which historically in the united states has been predominantly white people how people of color have managed to intersect with the interests of the ruling class essentially to make some gains, but also how those gains have particular limitations and the way in which professor bell has talked about this and many other scholars as well is looking forward. they're looking to the future of the law and how we can apply equality more effectively and attract a majority interest in making interest convergence. not a dual application where it starts with a positive and ends with limitations that hinder civil rights gains. and so so setting a path for understanding that the law ideals but those ideals to be made real by people. the law is created by people. it's enforced by people. it's it's violated by people and so humans make law and these are ways in which we can make the law more equitable. it's very general overview of critical race theory and interest conversions, but the way i'm going to look at it tonight is looking backwards and using references as professor bell has used with brown versus board of education for example, and bring it back to the 19th century. read it into the past and understand not just how white interests particularly surrounding the emancipation proclamation as a war measure how black americans also managed to affect their own self-interest. so even though these are limited gains the actions that black americans were able to undertake in order to create a space for themselves as citizens through the civil war. how war created these conditions that american black americans could take of and to work on emancipation and then towards the quality. so without further ado, i'll jump into this discussion of the emancipation proclamation. basically, this is where it starts where where i'm looking at it the interest convergence between the united states as political entity and black americans as a group but also as individuals so the emancipation proclamation is such a fascinating case and i could go on for hours about the emancipation proclamation and it has these significant achievements where president lincoln is kind of, you know, putting his finger on the pulse of the war what's acceptable what he can do to make the war effort to preserve the union successful. that is always his main consideration. and so the emancipation proclamation has significant limitations as does the military or the the militia acts the confiscation acts of 1862 1861 where these steps are taken haltingly towards enabling black americans to join the union army first as laborers and then a years, and so president lincoln is looking towards the entire war effort and for for his idea of interest convergence. he's trying to keep the border states these slave states within the union still within the union without losing them to the confederacy. so he has to walk a fine line it comes to slavery. so for his part he's interested in the preservation of the union and emancipation becomes a war strategy and goal once it becomes a parent that that is a way of hindering the confederacy from within the confederacy had longer, you know, these slave states within the south had long been concerned with this idea of the internal enemy that are black americans that they want emancipation that they want a quality and they might resort to violence in order to achieve that it's kind of the ruling logic behind these slave codes and maintaining control maintaining economic superiority and and continuing their particular interests. so it's when? interests of black americans particularly in the south coincides with the union that emancipation becomes possible but there are limitations and there's still lower pay for black soldiers the limited application to the areas for emancipation particular areas such as surrounding new orleans are exempt from the emancipation proclamation. whereas the areas that are not occupied by the union to any degree, but the confederacy itself. has the emancipation proclamation applied to it? so this idea that it is possible for you to leave your station as an enslaved person and join the united union army either as a labor or as a soldier and this is revolutionary for quite a few reasons and the confederacy books against this because the confederacy sees the opening the door to emancipation as opening the door to a quality, even though various people recognize that it's possible to limit the goals of of emancipation by limiting a quality through the law. but the the cornerstone of the confederacy is centered on white supremacy centered on maintaining absolute control over the enslaved population. so there's very little room for considering the possibilities of allowing enslaved people to become fighters. there's a lot of fear surrounding it and this concern that if we open the door to emancipation we open the door to a quality which completely undercuts the cornerstone of the confederacy as stated by for vice president alexander stevens. so the emancipation proclamation kind of kicks off this this process of recruitment, which starts in the north starts with free black americans and so these initial efforts are very much ad hoc. they are. basically affected by individuals by interested governors such as john a andrew of massachusetts pictured here as well as philanthropists and businessmen such as osb wall pictured here who are pushing the united states government to centralize this process to enable the recruitment not just a free black americans, but all black americans recognizing that striking a blow at slavery will strike a blow at the confederacy itself from within, you know, looking to these historical processes where foreign enemies such as the british for example had taken advantage of the tension between enslaved people and enslavers in the american revolution in the war of 1812. and so the us is looking to these precedents and trying to apply them as are these particular military commanders war governors like john andrew and particularly some some abolitionist minded. commanders like colonel william burney who becomes really important to this process as well as general lorenzo thomas who alone helps instigate i think about 41% of all of the black recruits who end up joining the united states colored troops. so the us recognizes that there are ways of you know coordinating with the black population to help its war efforts and it's only ever a war measure right? the emancipation proclamation is not affected through federal law. it is not codified through the legislature. it is an executive action as commander-in-chief by lincoln to use essentially the enslaved population against the confederacy from within. so this is the way in which the us is casting. this is legally viable option for enabling emancipation. it's not striking at the border states that are still within the union. it's only affecting the confederacy and it's only a war measure. the confederacy on the other hand is very reluctant to do this and by the time they start to attempt to recruit black soldiers from the enslaved population. it is very much too late now major general patrick kleberg is really the first major commander to suggest this move. he states that to open up. the ranks to enslaved people would not necessarily result in emancipation or excuse me inequality that emancipation was not necessarily a step to a quality, but it would at least help the confederacy as a war aim. so he's pushing for this in 1864, which is relatively late and he says, you know through necessity and wise legislation. this would ensure no material change, but he is very much not supported in this initially and it takes until general robert e. lee starts advocating for it around february 1865 january 1865. very late in the war that any attempts are made to use enslaved people as soldiers up to this point. in slavers have been and the confederacy has been thinking of manpower for black soldiers and and black people solely through labor. they are impressing free black men. they're impressing enslaved black men, but only to work on fortifications only to work in the capacity that has historically been accorded to them which as property to be used at the will of in slavers first and the state second. on the other hand the united states and and black men as well are looking at manpower not just as a means of labor and as fighting power, but power as men that the presence in the armed services of a nation affords legitimacy and citizenship to a degree that hadn't been possible for the majority of black americans to this point. so the idea of manpower i think is twofold for black americans. and so i think this is very appropriate theme for tonight. so black americans in the midst of all of you know the confederacy is kind of refusing to use the four million and you know about one million military-aged enslaved black men within the confederacy for those purposes for military efforts in terms of fighting. whereas black americans are basically acting out of their own self-interest wherever opportunities are possible and they have a variety of means in which to do this and this is very much apparent by the initial acts of self-emancipation that are starting well before the war but continue throughout the early period, you know people like robert smalls henry jarvis who are escaping to union lines forcing the issue forcing the union to deal with the reality of their willingness to support the union's cause and so that self-interest basically ends up working out in the long run at least during the war, but it takes a while for the shift to happen where efforts become centralized to enlist free and enslaved black men in the slave states, especially and so these efforts are made possible first by recruiting officers, but they are limited to the vicinity of occupied territory and then questions of enslaved men themselves and this is this is a good show. i think of how the process was made possible and i'll give you a couple of examples of men who were able to take advantage of the us coming in to confederate lines, and i'll always try to wrap up because i know i'm running out of time. but basically we have men like abram brawls who could not escape from his situation. he was located around here between gadsden and center, alabama until july 1864 at which point the union has started to encroach upon this territory and knowing that the union is present in georgia. he's able to take advantage of the presence of the union in order to escape, but he has to escape he cannot do so voluntarily is in slavery will not let him do so voluntarily. so he's navigating through the night time over 40 miles of terrain. he gets to dalton, georgia. yes, dalton, georgia. and has to work there until he's finally signed up for the 44th. united states colored infantry and then we have examples like the fraction brothers who are from blacksburg right here in blacksburg in montgomery county who weren't able to affect their escape until 1865 in april after the assassination of lincoln and their situated around here and you can see that this encroachment of the union army enables easier paths for people to make their way to union lines and sign up. but they're still encountering these issues where they can either fight flight or freeze as i would like to say and we see examples of this that you know work together as well where you can fight flight or freeze in many different combinations you can flee but then have to wait patiently to sign up depending on the situation available to you the louisiana native guards, for example who transform into the core duff creek the you know presence of black men who are using soldiering by any means possible whether it's with the confederacy or the union to affect emancipation is incredibly important. so to wrap up as i know i'm running out of time. i just want to say that i think these these movements are super interesting because it shows the complexity of how interest convergence works where we have these large-scale considerations with warfare that people like a president lincoln have to keep in mind where if they focus on black emancipation too early. they could lose the border states which are you know filled with slave holders and that would shift the war in in a direction that the union would not necessarily be able to fight against effectively. so losing more states is a major major concern for lincoln and so he's not acting in interests of black americans because he feels he has to act in certain different interests for the war effort and black americans are taking these grassroots. movements essentially, they're speaking with their feet and later with uniforms and guns essentially to take freedom where they can and they can't always do it as soon as it's available to them. they sometimes have to wait they lie. they, you know, keep in mind considerations like their family's safety where to go where to where to stay essentially they have to wait for information, but all in all this consideration of how the confederates essentially failed to make use and enable emancipation as a means of persisting through the war effort helps lead to the failure of the confederacy whereas the united states was able to coincide interests with black americans and black americans are acting in their own self-interest throughout all of this. so i think there's this really interesting kind of umbrella term through interest convergence that shows how the war developed and how people basically undertook what they had to in order to survive. that i believe my time is up and i will stop. thank you. right. thank you very much. second speaker tonight is emmanuel dapney? and he's a graduate of richard bland college the university of mary washington and also unc greensboro and since 2001. he's been employed by the national park service at petersburg national battlefield. so if you're visited those terrific facilities at petersburg, you've probably either seen emmanuel or at least benefited from the great work. he has done that his title for tonight is the first participation of free blacks in confederate, virginia over to you. so much. going to attempt to share my screen. i can find the screen. you can hopefully get started. oh great. so, thanks everyone for joining tonight. i am gonna be like like dr. newhall before me and try to be quick because we don't have a lot of time. i want to leave time for for people to ask questions. i dress to be clear this talk is not about black confederate soldiers other people have written about this issue and all of its complexities and that is not what this talk. it's about instead is about what comparison most of its time during the civil war focused on was how do we extract labor to free up white men to serve in the army and for and in this case free black men participate in other ways. so look forward to our discussion later, but we'll start with the reality. that is as the confederate capital moved to richmond. there are two governments operating within. virginia the virginia state government the general assembly and the governor and we confederate congress which meets in the virginia state capitol. as well as of course the confederate president and in his cabinet. i immediately just soon after the war begins in the spring of 1861. the confederacy is looking to see how they can extract labor from free black men as people who were not enslaved. and in virginia in july the 1861 on the very first day of the month the general assembly passed first of several laws about their participation in the war. and it was very clear that they were looking for men of prime age between 18 and 50. to do very arduous labor in constructing earthworks and other tasks. and this comes at an interesting moment. his award is just starting high as the confederate government. it just moved to richmond, but already there was campaign of constructing earthworks the new confederate capital. and in the city council in richmond, which is the third government that's not creating enrichment during the war. just seven days after general assembly passed this new law they decided that they were going to encourage the mayor to force free black men to participate in constructing these earthworks. on the 12th of february 1862 in general assembly passed another law in it's again really focused on forcing sheriffs constables local court systems to enroll free black men between 18 and 50 years of age as they said to construct batteries for applications. in other tasks. as sort of illustrated in this london newspaper from 1863. this is happening in tandem with conversations about using enslaved men to construct fortifications, but slave holders are not overly eager to let people go to the front. in part, it's about health of the enslaved people that they own in part is relevant to what dr. newell was just talking about in terms of people escaping if they're closer to the federal lines they are going to be more apt to be able to escape and within the federal arms lines. so slaveholders are excited by this new february 1862 a law as it would hopefully reduce the needs of sending enslaved people to the front. in this new law also forced a set of fines the shares and constables who refuse to deliver these free black men could be fined a hundred dollars a free black men who is vaded the authorities could be forced to pay anywhere between 50 and a hundred and fifty dollars for their lack of participation in the confederate or effort. so debate continued in 1862 and 1863 about a participation of free black men. in the confederate war effort and of course we see this play out. most prominently most easily accessible if you're interested yourself in newspapers. and so the richmond daily dispatch, you can find online the editor wrote in january 1863 a week after the emancipation proclamation. the governor thinks it would be wise to enact the law requiring all free -- male resident in those portions of the state which is an overrun by the enemy to be removed and be put to work upon the fortifications. i advise therefore that you pass a law authorizing confederate commanders to arrest the free -- list them and deliver them over to the proper officer of the confederate government. for this or any other service, which is required they will receive good wages and be provided with rations when the danger passes by they can return to their homes. here we have, you know. a need that the editor the richmond daily dispatches and he's not alone competitive engineer jeremy gilmer wrote to robert e lee in march the 1863 about the unfinished earthworks at petersburg. he compiled his requests that lead demand at the war department seek 1029 free black men on top of about 2000 enslavement to participate in the construction process at petersburg. the county with the least amount that he requested it was madison. it's north of charlottesville area. you're familiar with virginia. and that was only seven people. the greatest amount of people came from southampton county in the south eastern part of the state 142 and for the city of petersburg in charles city counties to deliver a hundred men each this debate went on is free black men continue to evade or not participate in the process. the recommended daily dispatches added or in november of 1863 writing. there are free -- enough in virginian to perform all the necessary work upon fortifications and railroads without impressing slaves for that purpose. there are enough worthless in legacy creatures of this class in this city. who could dig sufficient dirt to make richmond is impregnable as gibraltar? our authorities ought to put every one of them to the shovel in pickaxe and make them render some consideration to the community for the bread and meat they devour at present they are neither ornamental nor useful. it is hard time. they should be put to some account. clearly reflecting his prejudices about free people here in virginia. this waxing and waning went on within the halls of the competitored congress and the virginia state capitol, but in february of 1864 on the 17th of the month confederate government did step in requesting 20,000 enslaved men and decent forward and all free male -- as they said again between 18 and 50 years of age to do any work that the competitor government needed from constructing earthquakes to making munitions and working in hospitals. initially the government ruling was that these people would be paid about eleven dollars a month in november of 1864 competitor congress amended that to increase pay to $18 a month. and just keeping in mind about confederate inflation that by the summer the 1864 barrel of flour is in excess of a hundred and fifty dollars, so we're not talking about money. in addition to this earthwork campaign that was going on across virginia and indeed across the confederacy. free blacks were crucial to the operation of confederate hospitals this image here has a detail of a map of the library of congress showing the winder hospital in richmond. people are familiar with richmond in the vicinity of bird park today. in the spring of 1862 just prior to the bloodiest part of the war that would that will be fought up to that point the richmond daily. dispatch featured an ad asking for a hundred free of black men to come as nurses to this hospital and the ad stated if the parties go willingly good wages will be paid. and kind treatment afforded them if they do not volunteer, they will be impressed. again this if you come willingly we will be nice if you don't we're going to force you to do it anyway. the same sort of rhetoric repeated in 1860 three at the end of the year and advanced of the even bloodier 1864 campaign. it would ultimately land union competitor forces around richmond and petersburg. with that ad noted by pressing free -- of both sexes into service of being nurses at hospitals. then enslaved people would not be forced to go in as many numbers again making slaveholders happy at the detriment of free black people. the editor continued if white men can be taken from their families and made to serve in the country. surely free -- can be usefully employed calling these people idle and filled with vice. with free blacks did a whole lot of other work working for a railroads. they worked in salt lid in iron mines. they were cooked. they were teamsters just a variety of work that white men now could not do as a confederacy continuously starting 1862 expanded they are conscription at perhaps the greatest irony of the war i think is the amount of black labor that it's going to take to produce the very ammunition to kill us soldiers throughout the south. i it's a combination of free black men and enslaved like people and so i think this is just not been fully understood and i think it's perhaps best understood at tredegar iron works in richmond. a confederus is largest ironworks and made most confederate cannon and ammunition for that canon railroad cars all sorts of things that would that would sustain the confederacy and it's, you know, partially still around and it's 1865 photo. we're seeing tread or iron works go to the american civil war museum richmond national battlefield has visitors and our operational grounds to try to go and in the present day. the red star here marks the location of the 1861 gun foundry at tredegar. and among the people who? work there was a man named robert pleasant. he had been employed as a tobacco warehouse worker. i'm sorry, not robert, pleasants. but commands and smith. that's what i'm thinking of who was working there in the 1863 1864. there are just a number of people who are able to find new employment because of the war these people who never would have thought about working there before there's a carpenter working there with is identified in the 1860 census, but increasingly as war went on is fewer and fewer opportunities for black men to free black men to earn money. on their own accord because the confederate effort is so intense. and as the war goes on is more and more slave labor working alongside the diminishing numbers of white men and increasing numbers of free black men. and there is i just kind of an exciting thing of thinking about all the effort that has been devoted attention since really, you know, the late 1800s about who the civil war soldiers were both union and confederate not as much attention to voted to who the free black people are in the confederacy who is making the confederacy function and and even today is is we sort of see people riding and researching about enslaved people during the civil war. i see confusion about people in their status and and so i just thought i'd take a second to sort of highlight some of these people were ballot trend edwards who ended up becoming a post-war member of the general assembly was a pre-war. layer in manchester the town just across from richmond, which is now within the city's limits as a property owner. it was married by 1864 is living with his mother-in-law his wife near seven children in november that year. he was conscripted which means he was forced to leave the work that he had been doing and go work the richmond, danville railroad. the center here is james lipscomb who also became a post-war member of the general assembly and he had been a carriage driver prior to the civil war working for a white family in richmond. but in november of the 1864 he was conscripted by the confederate government his case to go work engineer department. and you know, i think about lipscomb in particular. it's about 1880s. he owns over 500 acres of land and cumberland county. what would his life have been like prior to the war? had the war not have to happen because slavery would somehow not existed. that how much more successful he could have become. some free black men testified about their wartime experiences benjamin summers of norfolk probably with one of the most difficult accounts and and i think it's important here from these people. so i'm going to read what what he had to say. in 1861 or 62 i was taken handcuff and carried to craney island and made to work on the earthworks with ball and chain on my legs. i was kept there are two months when my legs was so bad from the chain that i was sent back to suffolk. this was by the confederate authorities and because i did not want to go and try to get away. i was given 500 lashes and then rubbed down with salt grind. and he exhibited his body to white man involved with his testimony. who described his hips looking as the large pieces of flesh had been dug out? you think about enslaved people being tortured by enslavers with the confederate government and its various members of the white society that compose the confederate government military also did this to benjamin summer see so-called free black person? and probably the most, you know, meaningful oral testimonies about this time period for me, and i know that some of my family members are are participating tonight is the testimony of my great great uncles robert dabney and benjamin dabney. so the two of them had additional brothers george john in my great-great-grandfather henry who's pictured who's pictured here on the far, right? and it various points during the war. they were forced to go work for the competitor government and uncle benjamin would testify later? i was impressed into the rebel service several times during the war in 1862. i was taken to manassas for what they said would be 60 days service, but it was a year before i was discharged a drove an army wagon several times after i was compelled to work on the fortifications. i never bore arms or took any oath. my great great uncle robert was made a team's robotic government in 1861. he was told he would only be away for 60 days. it turned into six months. he escaped from where he was and came back home. and then he said the day after i got home a rebel officer came from me. i refused to go with him. he drew his pistol. i told him he might shoot what i would not go. my family were starving and besides i was unfit for service. this confederate officer may have been a white cousin of his but whoever it was told him to get a doctor's certificate excusing him from further harassment, and that was true until late in the war when robert joined his brothers including my great great grandfather henry and working with the confederate engineers on constructing earthworks for the confederates to defend petersburg. and that was the case i even as peter's work was evacuated as a competitorate army retreated westward and then ended up at the rural crossroads appomattox court house. but on the night of april 8th 1865 henry his brothers and two other free black men managed to get out of the confederate lines and begin their trek back home to their farms. only to discover that their farm was now in rec. thanks to the union troops and they are temporary occupation of said farms after the battle of five forks in april of 1865. so i'll stop there and stop sharing and i will turn it over. thanks so much. thank you very much. what a powerful story to end onto. really appreciate that. so last but not least our final speaker for this evening is david gillman. he teaches history at george mason university. he's also an emeritus a system professor editor, excuse me at the papers of abraham lincoln and he's currently working on a book about horses and horsemanship in the civil war era and i first got to know him. he received a research grant to come to virginia tech to use our special collections to research this project and i enjoyed learning about his project then and when i decided to do this civil war weekend on the theme of resources, he immediately came to mind so i'm really glad he's able to come back virtually of course to virginia tech and share his research tonight his title as you can see up on the screen great quotation as much a military supply as a barrel of gunpowder wartime horses and meal purchases. thank you over to you. thank you very much paul, and thanks to everyone at virginia tech for making this possible. i'm i only regret is that it is virtual and it's not being held on the the beautiful campus, which i very very much enjoyed visiting. first of all, let me apologize in advance. i am going to proceed with as much speed and dispatch as i can. so this may turn out to be somewhat of an academic mule kick to the audience out there. so my apologies in advance, but i'll try to get through as much as i can this evening with all do speed. first of all, i think it's important to mention the rise of animal studies as part of the study of history. it's a growing field a field of which i've been happy to be a part. and we also have to remember the horse has been probably the most valuable animal in human service since domestication really the society that we live in now would not have existed without the labor of the horse and it's cousin the mule and really from domestication and in the first historical records that we have on file whether they be biblical or otherwise when the horse is mentioned, usually it's connected to war that the horse was rapidly put to use in military service whether that be for the ancient egyptians or or whoever it didn't take humankind long to discover that armed men on foot versus armed men on horse armed man on horse usually wins. and so horses became an extremely valuable military resource as i said since domestication right up through the second world war. and it's not been that long since horses played a major role. both in war and in our society in general and indeed this was recognized at the time of the civil war that horses were going to be a very valuable war resource and both in northern and southern press. there will be occasional comments about how the horse is going to serve its patriotic duty in either winning southern independence or restoring and upholding. the union and indeed. pardon indeed questions about horse care during the war will reach all the way to the white house. in fact the letter that i found back in 1996 and national archives by alonzo still is the one who really got me thinking more and more about this topic about horses. now in the civil war in particular, i think modern readers perhaps those who have no experience with livestock. tend to think of you know them the rather like vehicles that they can be yes used when needed the set aside when not and ready to go at the next and the next possible need and if horses despite their size and power are actually rather delicate creatures certainly in their feet and their digestive systems. and indeed alonzo still will write to president linking requesting that he do something for greater care of army livestock and you think that that such a letter would really go nowhere, but it goes from the white house to the war department and makes its way through various bureaus to act upon or at least be recognized as of worth. the united states in ninth in 1860 interestingly enough is the most populous horse nation in the world. we have exactly double the number of horses of our closest rival and that was russia interestingly. also, we're approaching about this same number of about 6.2 million horses in the united states currently. but that was the total. thanks to the us census. we know this of 1816 and the horses were not of course evenly distributed just as population surprising to many the greatest horse state in the union in 1860. it wasn't virginia wasn't kentucky. it was ohio, ohio had the largest number of animals. and in the south virginia led the way and texas came in roughly about second. although texas was a far more complicated issue being so far away and having many of those horses, i think running around practically while and then of course there was the issue of mules in the south the south will lead the nation in mule population. but those numbers are actually going to be deceptive the southern plantation economy actually imports on a yearly basis large numbers of horses and mules from states like, missouri, kentucky and, ohio. that while the south has the largest meal population at the start of the war. they are not supplying their own. numbers many of those come from elsewhere and in case anyone doesn't know mules cannot self-reproduce mules are the product of a cross between usually a male donkey and a mare a female horse. so that certainly was an issue that you know, they they're very useful creatures, but they do not self reproduce. we estimate about 1.5 million horses and mules died or were killed during the war about double. human casualties and horses were recognized as critical war making a critical warmaking resource. in fact, it's montgomery megs who uses the phrase that horses are just like a barrel of gunpowder that they should be confiscated whenever they are found. none should be left for enemy use. in 1863 just as the federal government is banning the export of any horses to any other nation canada. for example, you have the confederacy actually trying to import import from mexico. there were even some suggestions about trying to run horses through the blockade which was ridiculously impossible. in fact, there's only one horse that i know of that actually ran the blockade on a blockade runner and that was an arab. that was a a gift horse to jefferson davis horse. apparently, that was extremely bad tempered and only jefferson davis could actually ride it. well for the us army just as any other supply horses and mules were purchased by contract bit. and of course the lowest bidder got the contract while it worked quite well overall there certainly were problems oftentimes. not the best animals were being secured because of course everyone was trying to abide for the lowest possible price. you also had people quite naturally. i suppose taking the opportunity of the government buying large numbers of animals to get rid of their most problematic most ill-tempered animal that they might have in their stable. it wasn't until 1864 that there were changes in the law that allowed farmers to sell in a sense directly to the government. in smaller numbers, two three, four five etc. otherwise they had to be purchased in large numbers the confederacy relies on really the system that went back to the american revolution the war of 1812 that especially for the cavalry that private individuals would bring private horses from home. they would receive about 40 cents a day for their use and supposedly be provided with forage. and if the animal was killed in battle, they would be compensated for that animal at the price. it was appraised for when it entered service. this also means of course that if your animal dies of sickness is struck by lightning or somehow, you know has a non-battlefield death you are out of luck. you are not going to be compass compensated for that any even if you were for example, if you brought a horse into the confederate army in 1861. that was appraised for $200, which was a good price at that time by 1863.64 $200 isn't going to do very much for you trying to purchase any kind of replacement. you're looking at thousands of dollars per animal by then. in fact, we even have confederate leaders at the end of the war saying that their policies for horsing. their army was radically wrong. and indeed initially union forces used this same when the war first broke out in the summer of 661 you had a number of union units organized exactly the same way but union forces, especially army administration is going to begin to phase that out by 1863 any privately held animals in union service are going to be purchased by the federal government. and no additional no new ones. we're going to be provided or that is the federal government would provide animals that were disabled or killed in service now there were the union could do things the confederacy could not for a number of reasons a larger horse population a larger revenue stream. that for example union forces specified that animals had to be a certain age from four to nine years later. they'll shift that to six to ten. that they were to be of a particular color dark hues were preferred and that they were to be geldings no mares. no stallions were to be purchased by the union army for military use and there were a number of reasons for that. but it was impossible to exclude all mares from union service, so there will be some that will get in there. the confederacy of course is in no way able to restrict any type of animal that was going to be brought into or purchased into confederate service and indeed when it comes to mules there were also requirements and and restrictions in fact cut in color scheme iron granules were preferred. no light colored mules. no, no whites or dappled apparently at the time. it was a 19th century myth i think as it turns out that iron grain mules had better stamina and indeed mules are in many ways the unsung heroes of the war. both armies will rely on them for motive power for their baggage and supply trains without the mule confederate or pardon me civil war armies. do not move. they also are often longer live than horses. that is they they can eat worse food. they can be worse treated and were they can do better in harsher conditions than horses. and so very quickly. both armies will start eliminating horses from their wagon trains and replacing them with mules. there are even accounts of mule teams purchased in 1861 that are still in union army service in 1865. and were you know good to go for years years past. usually it was in the inspection process that there were early on in the war there were shenanigans with contractors bribing inspectors to pass horses that were not quite up to snuff. and of course collect from the us government eventually the army will crack down on that to the point that every animal purchased by the union army by 1864 will have several brands on it including the initials of the inspector that passed them so at the animal reaches the front and it's not serviceable they could trace it exactly back to who passed it and punishments could then be it out. price wise both union and confederacy the prices are are the same at the start of the war anywhere from 50 to 120 dollars. basically, and of course as the war goes on as the need goes up you have prices go up as well until the by the end of the war. you're look you're looking at prices hovering around $200 each for horses and mules for the union army and in the confederacy basically prices have spiraled. almost completely out of control you're looking at two $3,000 to try to replace an animal and you have southerners who are refusing to sell to the confederate army unless they pay in gold and unless they pay cash immediately by the end of the war you have even robert e lee trying to figure out if you know, can we somehow sift horses from union states into the confederacy and solve our horsing problem? that way of course the union also benefits and having a better transportation network in order to get these vast numbers of animals that are being purchased to the front both by rail and by water the confederacy actually will restrict the shipment of any animals by rail that in the confederacy if you're mounted and you're heading to war you're riding you are not going to be allowed to use any of the few trains. that the confederacy has available and both north and south it at least officially on paper the rations that the animals are to be provided. we're basically the same they're both using the old us army regulations in order to say, you know, you need 10 pounds of hay you need 14 pounds of grain for each animal per day both armies of course will encounter shortages of that and of course in the confederacy, it's going to be much much worse. in trying to certainly get you know forages big and bulky getting it transported to the front is very difficult, very expensive and the confederacy is going to have real issues with that. confederate armies are going to be certainly their animals are going to be reduced in flesh and practically starving and a number of occasions during the war. so union resources in transport and because of ongoing mechanization of agriculture will make supplying union armies in the field much easier. then it really had ever previously been. in warfare, and i just have a number of totals there the vast amount of grain and hay purchases that were made during the war is really quite extraordinary and they're even some fun things. at least. i find them fun suggested one of the the favorite things that i found in the archives was a as you see a sketch and a suggestion for what was called an electric battery saddle. it was a saddle that apparently had an electric battery underneath it and that battery would power two sort of small gatling guns. that would be mounted on the horses withers and it would be fired by a pedal within the stir up much like your car's gas pedal. kudos for the inventiveness of the individual who thought this up it was of course wildly impractical. and of course it it never goes beyond the design stage also more practical, but also didn't go very far in the war was a suggestion and an experimentation for concentrated horse feed basically ground up grain in cooked pellets that could be carried on campaign and it was billed as food for man and beast that if men ran short of rations, they could actually take a scoop of this pelleted form and throw it in hot water and make some sort of a mush which could enjoy if necessary. well, of course armies 19th century armies are going to be battling the weather as well as each other that both heat and cold are going to prove to be enormous difficulties to have to overcome on active campaign whether it's freezing winter or sunstroke in the summer. the animals are going to suffer quite readily from that because they're already under stress and duress certainly on campaign. and indeed you have people like charles francis adams riding home saying, you know if you could only see the animals on which these dashing cavalry raids at the newspapers reporting if you could only see what they actually look like you would be horrified. they don't look anything like they do in paintings or in illustration. so with their ribs sticking out and so even just marching. without battle in the offing was a draining and difficult process four miles an hour was considered a killing two horses and so armies whether they be union in confederate are constantly losing animals whether or not you know, they're facing an enemy or not and part of this loss comes from inexperience of troopers poor commanders oftentimes early in the war when you have civilians in in command of units. they don't take very good care of their animals, and that certainly is a detriment and it quickly shows. it was said early on that you could tell immediately a unit whether they had an old army west pointer in command or a civilian by the shape of their animals and indeed in battle these animals the horses especially were targets for both counter-battery fire and sniper fire because of course, they're a large target target and be if you can kill enough of them the artillery battery can far more easily captured. and so you will have fire purposely directed toward the the case on and limber teams. that would be standing just off from the firing line of an active engagement and then of course you will have at gettysburg some 3,000 animals are killed and at the siege of chattanooga roughly about 10,000 animals are going to be killed. or starve to death because of the restrictors of supply and by 1864 union authorities will make a ruling and and say that no longer if an animal breaks down on the march. we're not turning it loose anymore too many of those animals branded us are ending up in the confederate army if an animal breaks down or becomes inoperable on the march, they're going to be shot. they're going to be killed immediately. we're not going to let them. end up and used by our enemies, which was what what was happening. you have men that comment on this that this poor animal, you know only needs a few days rest and actual food and you have to kill it because you're not letting it behind for the enemy to use against you and indeed this is an issue throughout the war whether in the field or behind the lines. what do you do with these large numbers of data animals and interestingly enough there is money to be made in that by 1864 you have contractors that are bidding for the debt animals that are having to be shot because they're glandered. they have a contagious disease and indeed, you know for a dollar 30 for and a us army horse carcass if you're rendering contractor you could profit up to five dollars if you part that animal out, you know, take off the skin the the hide the hooves can be sold for blue etc and you could end up profiting five dollars that we're reports that one contractor in 1864 made a 60,000 profit on it. so while a grizzly business it wasn't an unofferable one. and unlike the confederacy here again resources matter. the union army was able to build very large and certainly for the day very complex remount depots. there was one just outside washington here in what is now i think bowling air force base. it's right across from reagan national airport guysborough point and it was over 600 acres it could hold up to 30,000 head and it was a very interesting complex. they had all sorts of steamed urban mills, they eventually will have hospital stables one of the problems both north and south have is there are no real trained veterinarians in the united states. there are i found very few records in the few that do exist are usually foreign train from denmark from france from england etc. and indeed if an animal is is able to make it back from the front back to one of these rima depots. they have about a 50/50 chance or a little better of being cured or at least being rehabilitated and put back in service or sold back to private. purchases purchasers by the end of the war having built up this large military complex the armies are going to by this point, of course by 1865 by april may. it's the union army only and you're going to have to unload all these animals and so there will be national basically a national military liquidation sale of all these horses and mules purchased by the army and they'll they'll go for bargain basement prices. there were some suggestions that perhaps union veterans should get a special bonus get them at lower prices, but it was really not necessary. animals that had been purchased for $200 in shall we say march of 65 by may of 65 are selling for 50 or 60 and so having built up the army the the army is going to have to be a demobilized and selling off all these animals will be necessary at the end of the wars in a sense the long-term impact by 1870 the confederacy. pardon me the states of the former confederacy have nearly 250,000 less horses than they had in 1860 the north on the other hand will gain one point to million. and i i think i'm going over time as is so i will stop there and say if anything i've said interest you there's lots more information in an upcoming book on animals in the civil war of which i have a chapter of my almost the same titles, so i will stop now i will turn it back over to paul and i await your questions with eagerness. thank you very much. three fascinating talks. we've already got a good number of questions on the table. so thanks very much for sending those in and i'm gonna start with a question for caroline there were kind of cluster of questions in one way or another relating to lincoln's role in all of this including the nature of his authority over the confederate states in the emancipation proclamation also the evolution of his stance over time. so the way the question was phrased, you know, did he know in 1861 that he was at some point gonna issue an emancipation proclamation all was it more of a decision he came to over time and then finally another person was asking about the impact of frederick douglass on abraham lincoln's thinking on emancipation. so i realized that's a lot you could do at least one book and that question alone. so just free to attack any part of the question you want to really? so yes, lincoln is really interesting case and there's so many good works on this so i i'm only scratching the very bare minimum surface of this topic, but lincoln was not an advocate for emancipation. he was not for the majority of the war even when he initiated emancipation. he had many hesitations about it. he did not think that the federal government had the legality and the standing in order to affect that he thought it was a states right issue and that was always his stance and he tried to reassure the southern states the southern states about this during his presidential campaign, which was that he believed in limiting the spread of slavery, but didn't want to get rid of it where it existed. he felt that self-determination was you know, the course that had to be followed by the states and if emancipation was to happen. it had to be affected at the level so he did not start out the war with an idea of emancipating slaves of enacting equality. that was something he came to as a war strategy. and something that he kind of had to goaded into particularly by people like frederick douglass frederick douglass met with lincoln constantly throughout the war. he was consistently advocating for allowing black americans to participate freeman enslaved people, you know taking them on paying them equally he was advocating at all at all times for the advancement of black americans through the war effort and you know stating that they had just as much at stake as white americans and that they had to be included because they were americans they were part of america. they built america. they were part of the wealth creation of america. so so all of the wealth in the south, you know frederick douglas is arguing this coming off of the backs of enslaved people. they were making america a reality. so if anybody had steak as americans it was black americans and this was a delicate line for for lincoln because he came to realize along with you know, the agitation of various abolitionists generals philanthropists civilians. he was constantly getting advice from everybody because this is back in a time where presidents like lincoln still meet with people on a week to week basis and hear from the public. it's very different contexts, and we're used to now so he he definitely had to be dragged along to that to that stands and for him. i think the process of enabling it as a war measure under the powers that he had as commander in chief was the way that he could square this this strategy essentially a military tactic that he recognized had value and i think is best expressed perhaps by somebody like henry halleck to grant in march 1863 by saying that every slave removed from the is a white man taken from the battlefield for the confederacy and that was a consideration with the prisoner exchanges many many things so he had to be dragged along and it took a lot of agitation by radicals by abolitionists and it was really when the needs of the war kind of met these these agitations by people for years and years and years that he recognized that it had use as a war measure, but he was still going to to limit it as much as possible and i think one of the most telling things that happened with lincoln was that he expressed to frederick douglass the idea that perhaps they could institute a sort of underground railroad to get people out of the south and bring them into the north. so if the north wasn't successful they could at least bring people out of the south through kind of extra legal means essentially and free them that way but if he wasn't ever going to encroach on and legal power that he didn't feel he had and that was continually infuriating for a lot of people but that's that's the hard part of being president and being commander in chief and trying to square the needs of the people with the needs of the nation with the desires of the people with what has to happen and war so i don't necessarily have a stance on the morality of what lincoln's doing, but i i understand his position. so yeah. yeah, and i think that explains the aging that he experienced during the war if you compare the photos of lincoln at the beginning in the end. wow, you can see the bird and he was bearing and so thank you for the answer question for emmanuel. so given that free black man in virginia, you know knew what was coming. they knew it was very likely at some point a hand of the confederate government. whichever authority is gonna reach down and try and compel them to do this lab. many of them actually confederate territory to avoid that. yeah, great question. yes, people did leave qualify quantifying how many people is challenging. i mean, we're we're still estimating that a half million slave people fled during the course of the war. so piecing out how many free people were fleeing is challenging, but certainly one of the people that i found through i mean, i didn't find a doctor and a green found. years ago now in charles city county some free black woman was living on a farm. she had children one of them was a older son who was you know prime age to be forced into a confederate military use today earthworks, and he did so until he managed to get back home. he fled and ended up going down into hampton roads region enlisted in a union us color troop regiment fought, you know during during the civil war in was discharge just died in the sort of post four years, but and that's a great example of somebody who did not want to go dig earthworks. where the confederacy didn't want to be further harassed by the confederacy yet made a challenging choice of leaving his you know, middle-aged mother at home with younger children. there were his siblings to go fight in us culture unit on so free blacks are facing some of the same challenges that enslaved people are facing and i hope that we can find out more about the flight of free blacks. yeah, absolutely. and as you say would be impossible, you know to count them all and and recover every experience. but the more we can do the better. and for david now a question about the tremendous loss of horses and mules specifically in the pharma confederacy during the civil war. do you have a sense as to how how long it took for the population of horses and mules to recover from those losses during the war? well, certainly probably wasn't until the 1890s because that the the numbers that i was using there were based on the census of 1870. so 10 years after the war you're looking at for the south about 250,000 head down. and again the post war period was not a prosperous period generally in the south so replacing them newerically i think was was difficult, and i don't have an exact date for but i would assume not until the 1890s at least. so yeah, that makes sense. thank you and another one for emmanuel one of our attendees says they they've heard that their great-great-grandfather from the manchester area was a free black man impressed into service by the confederacy during the civil war. and do you have any suggestions for research resources that this person can look to to try and verify whether that was true and find out a little bit more about more about their ancestor. yeah, so free black people are a bit easier to research than enslave people in my own families line. i have both and so i would say if you have any sense of name to go to the census for 1860 and 1850 and start looking through the chesterfield county because manchester is not in richmond during the civil war era and in search that way. through in terms of trying to find out their sort of confederate military service. there's a couple of different ways. one is another researcher renee ingram went to the national archives that places that we're all terribly missing right now those of us who love to research and it's closed dude covid but at the library for virginia, which is recently reopened she um got a another copy of these engineer records from the national archives that cover may 1864 until early 1865 in his name may be listed there. how i in. it found out my own sort of family history. i'm partially and then the national archives as recently in the last year and a half or so digitized what was referred to as a slave rose or slave payrolls, but sometimes they're free like people that are caught up on these records as well and they are digitized and i think my friend dr. adam domi is here. he has a website it makes a little bit more easy to navigate than the national arch how search engine in terms of looking for the counties that people were coming from and where they were going so chesterfield county. let's say has a list of people that are going to go to the richmond defenses more often and not they are enslaved people. but sometimes you look out and find a free life people. great. thank you very much. that's really useful. and so just just a few minutes left and i want to ask you a question the same question of each of you, which is how critical do you think the resource that you talked about was in thinking about the outcome of the war? and anyone can jump in mine's most important i beg to differ they're all equally important. also, i'll start off with saying that. yeah, i think i think the implementation of striking at the interior of the confederacy the confederacy's failure to recognize that in the past, you know, foreign enemies had made use of the enslaved population essentially and an enslaved people making use of foreign enemies as well. you know, this is this is a dual process. it's not one or the other. i think they maybe you know an over-correcting towards upholding a white supremacist enslaving nation that was dedicated solely towards the process of maintaining complete authority was too rigid and i think that that had significant ramifications because had they been able to make concessions to enslaved people had they been able to maybe emancipate men who would have signed up and emancipated their families. that is something that was advocated in several arenas. saying you know if we give them incentives to fight for the confederacy, they will fight for the confederacy. they'll defend their homes. they'll defend their families their self-interest their communities if we give them a reason to and i think the failure to do that was definitely significant and i think that was one of many fatal errors that the confederacy made that it didn't recognize, you know, one of many obviously and there's so many happy accidents and unforeseen things that happened during the war that could have completely changed the whole trajectory. so i i can't say for sure. that one was the driving factor. yeah. i think that yeah recognizing that there are more than one million military-aged men within your ranks who could be willing to help if you gave them a reason to i think that's a massive failure and definitely a contribution but one of many many that happened and could have been avoided many different ways had several. and things happened, but yeah, yeah great. thank you emmanuel david. do you want to make a pitch? but i will just say that the confederacy ran out of horses before they ran out of men. great. no, okay. yeah, simply put yeah, you kind of need those exactly in the 19th century. you absolutely do although one of the other interesting fun finds in the archives was suggestions for what was called a steam wagon, which was the to the modern tank. an emmanuel is a slightly different question for you. because of course, you know, you're talking about coerced labor on behalf the confederacy which lost the war. so i guess the question is what difference did this coerced labor make to the confederate war effort if if much of a difference, i would say that the chorus labor allowed the confederacy to exist for four years. i mean the firing upon fort sumter is april 1861 the effort to force black people both free and enslaved to participate starts in the spring of 1861 and and gets codified into law as i pointed out in the summer of 1861 and it just continues and continues the demands upon free black people to abandon their responsibilities at home to force them to uphold a slave holding a nation is is really interesting and but it allowed what confederate military personnel the white soldiers that are fighting to fight, you know more than to shoot guns at us troops if they didn't have to be somewhere else often far away from us troops on to to dig earthworks or work in a hospitals. we've been impossible for try to go iron works to stay in function. afterwards labor force was black bay by 1863. so so yeah, so yeah, it certainly helped the confederacy last as long as it did. yeah, i think that's a really good way of putting it. thank you and well, unfortunately we are out of time, but i really want to thank three presenters from this evening for getting the civil war weekend events after such a fantastic start really enjoyed your talks and the conversation afterwards. thank you for to the attendees for the questions you gave to us and we really appreciate you joining us this evening. i really hope that you come back next week for three more great presentations on tangible resources things like clothing and photographs that kind of thing that americans used in the civil war and when you log off from tonight zoom webinar you should be directed to the registration page for next. event. so again, even if you registered for tonight, you have to register again for next week and again for the week after that. so i hope you all keep coming back for more. we will certainly be glad to have you and finally i want to thank my colleagues at the virginia tech continuing and professional education unit who did such a wonderful job organizing this whole thing and handling the registration and making everything run smoothly with zoom. so thank you leland shelton here to an upland village in the state of virginia the first tuesday in every month. there comes a truckload of books. the traveling library has many friends among these remote farming people. the free book service provides them with a much-needed link