Transcripts For CSPAN2 Romantic Violence 20170702

An opportunity to welcome some of our guests, particularly in the area of the country and prejudice and engage with them in conversations. Wed like to do it two ways today. After our guest speaks, i will begin with questions and then make the floor available to you to ask and argue with them, whatever makes you happy. When he was still a teenager. After leaving the violent far right state movement that he was part of during his youth, he began the painstaking process of rebuilding his life. And in the year 2009, he cofounded an Organization Called life after hate. A Nonprofit Organization helping people to disengage from hate and violent extremism. In 2015 christian decided to share his journey from hate to understanding in the book, and he published the romantic, a book called romantic violence memoirs of an american skinhead. So following his talk ill ask him a few questions and he will have an opportunity to engage with him. Christian, the floor is yours. [applause] thank you, abe. Its a real pleasure to be here first of all. Dont be distracted by the terrible view thats outside. I may be but please dont. My name is christian picciolini, and my journey here actually started not in 1973 in november on a snowy day 43 years ago, but 22 years ago in 1995 when i left finally the organization, the american neonazi skinheads movement that helped build almost from its very beginning. I was 22 years old old at the time but id already spent eight years, every single one of my formative years as part of americas first neonazi skinhead gang. But before that i was a relatively normal teenager. I had a thing for tchotchke, haircut, you know, happy days was the 80s so forgive me. But i was a normal teenage kid my parents were italian immigrants who came to United States in the mid1960s. And theyre often the victims of prejudice themselves. The racism wasnt something that i grew up with perkins act is quite opposite. We always had people of different cultures and religions visiting, and i became very comfortable with that. But because my parents were immigrants they also had to work very hard in this country. So he opened a small beauty shop on southside of chicago, and that kept him busy seven days a week, sometimes 14 hours a day. So i didnt really see my parents very much. I had lived in a very italian part of chicago but when i was born, my parents moved me to a very, lets say a place with lacked diversity. It was a very white suburban area. So growing up i never really knew what exactly i fit in pic i did know if i was an italian. I didnt quite understand if i was an american because of their traditional culture that they kept me in very close bubble. So i had a lot of struggles growing up. I had low selfesteem and low selfconfidence. I was bullied pretty severely because of my name and because i was different. I was also very short. And i started to really want to be very american. I got tired of being this person who stuck out as a child of immigrants. And i started to resent my parents for being immigrants and for also not being there for me. I felt very abandoned by them. So one day when i was going through this search for an identity and a community and a sense of purpose, which is really a fundamental need that everybody searches for, i had this grievance underneath, this kind of selfhatred, and a 14 i was standing in an no smoking a joint. And this man drove up in a 1968 firebird, 80 screeched to a halt a few inches from me and he got out of the car, came over to me and you looked me in the eyes and he said as he grabbed the joint out of my mouth, dont you know that thats what the communists and the jews want you to do to keep the domicile . Well, i was 14. I did know what communist was. I did know if id met a jewish person and he hardly knew what the word hostile mid. Its true, still dont really know, but his charisma struck me. Me. For most of my life until that point i felt very powerless. I was picked on and bullied to. I didnt have any friends. I didnt have a community. When this man came up to me he started to promise me paradise. He said come with me and you wont be powerless anymore. You will be powerful. My ears perked up and he said come with me and you wont be alone, and ill give you this community. And i got very interested. And then he started tilting tell me about the dangers that existed in my community that africanamericans were moving in, to commit crime that immigrants are coming into still jobs and the jewish people control the media and finance system and the banking system. I didnt quite understand that but i thought that this guy, two out of three wasnt bad and i was willing to join the group. And not be alone anymore and feel powerful. I started to learn this ideology to stay a part of this, to belong. I didnt have a basis for racism. I didnt really understand what youre talking about. I certainly didnt see the things happening in my neighborhood that he claimed were happening. But i was lonely, and at 14 years old i pledged my allegiance to this man who happened to be americas first neonazi skinhead, and it would from the kid with the chachi haircut to one of americas first neonazi skinheads in 1987. As i was involved in this organization, i started to learn the rhetoric and the conspiracy theories and they would use their rhetoric to scare us to be leaving and doing harm and other people to stop that from happening. And i look back now i think to myself how could i follow for that . How could i follow for those lies . Because now i see the same conspiracy theories and same propaganda going around and it is the links only people i think i couldve been smarter than that. The trick was i was more than that. I didnt question the propaganda that i was being fed but ultimately i chose to swallow it and eventually i let it become a part of me because i wanted to belong so badly. It was that search for identity, community and sense of purpose that drove me to this movement when i was the most marginalized when i was a most vulnerable. Two years after i was recruited whenever 16, the, the man who recruited me went to prison for a series of vicious and heinous hate crimes. One of which the final crime was going to the apartment of another skinhead girl who was part of his crew who would been seen standing at a bus stop with black men, and it went to her apartment, the whole group, and a kick in her door and a pistol whipped her until she was within an inch of her life. And before you left and teaches dead, they painted a swastika on her wall in her own blood. Luckily for that, they were arrested and sentenced to prison. Unlucky for me, that propelled me into a position of leadership for this organization because ive now been around two years that i learned how to recruit. I fully was immersed in the rhetoric and ideology, and i started to draw in kids that were younger than the and oftentimes the bullies that picked on me. I would bring them in. So now because there was avoiding leadership, everybody had been recruited after me suddenly looked to me to find out what to do. And two years prior to this powerless kid had no idea how to lead, who had no idea how to even have a relationship in real life because i was shy, was suddenly propelled into a leadership position of americas first neonazi skinhead gang. An infamous organization in the United States because by this time group said start to pop up all over the country. One thing i realized was that music was a very powerful recruitment tool. It was also a very good vehicle for propaganda. So i started in 1990, one of americas first white power skinhead bands. And in those songs i would essentially use propaganda to teach people to hate, to commit acts of violence, and to be proud of something that was manufactured. Because what we said was that diversity was contributing to a white genocide, that the more we allow diversity and multiculturalism to take place, that white people would bear the brunt of that and be pushed out of this world. Of course i look back at that i think how ridiculous that must have sounded but it resonated with people. It was use of the rhetoric to make them afraid that really kicked them into action. So this picture is from 1991 at a concert in germany. Thats me on stage singing to about 4000 skinheads from all over europe. And i sang these lyrics that really encourage people to go out and commit acts of violence, to hurt other people based on simply the color of their skin, the god that they break you or who they loved. This was the First Experience where i recognize what the consequences of my works really were because after this concert, these 4000 skinheads went out into weimar, this beautiful comp store pharmacies at germantown that has produced artists and thinkers and philosophers and musicians, and they essentially destroyed this town. They walked into shops and looted. They broke into pubs and stole beer, and they beat up the townspeople who happen to be german. That didnt compute to me. I didnt understand why we could say one thing and do another. And i started to realize not only the consequences that my words would have to encourage people to go out and commit acts of violence, but i start to question the ideology, and if it was something that i was really in tune with. Because for these eight years that i was involved i always had questioned in the back of my mind. When i heard things that did make sense i wouldnt stand up and question them, but i would have this internal struggle on whether it was right or whether i believe it, or whether i was capable of things that i was telling people to do. Yet i did them. And i know now that for eight years that i was involved, i hated other people because i hated myself. I hated my situation so much that i was willing to project my own pain onto other people so that i didnt have to deal with it myself. When i came back in 1991 from the trip in germany, things changed again for me. I met a girl and i fell in love. And at 19 years old we were married and we had our first child. And i can tell you come if youre a parent may view understand this, when i held my child for the first time in my arms, it was a bit of magic. I suddenly reconnected with that innocent 14yearold who was lost and i regained my innocence, i started to release such a glimpse of what it meant to be innocent. And i started to ship my priorities, my identity, my community, my sense of purpose were no longer as a skinhead, as a leader. It was as a father and as a husband. And all i wanted to do was support my family and provide for them pics i begin to question very aggressively the ideology that i had believed and that i passed a law on to hundreds and maybe thousands and maybe tens of thousands of other people, both through meetings and my music. And i knew thats not what i wanted for my own family. I never asked my wife was not a part of this movement to become involved. I never thought that i wanted my child to be a part of the movement. And i started to really question what i was doing. But i got a little confused again and i said okay, i need to support my family. Theres not much else i know but music, and i decide to open a records store. And the purpose of the record store for me was not only to support my family but to state a part of this movement because it was so difficult to leave, despite abandoning the ideology day by day. It was a difficult to leave the identity and the community because i had a family around me that i never experienced before. And it was difficult so i went and opened a store to sell white power music. Thats all i knew how to do. And very quickly, this is before the internet, very quickly the white power music became 75 of my gross revenue. People were driving from new york and from california to buy this music, but trying to be a Good Business person and being greedy, maybe a little selfish, i decided i wasnt just going to sell white power music, i was going to sell other music so i started to start heavy metal and punk rock and hiphop. And what happened next i never would have imagined. The customers who came in to buy that at the music, even they knew who i was, showed me compassion. In fact, they showed me compassion when i least deserved it, and they were the people that i least deserved it from. And at first i was very standoffish. I was happy to accept their money and sell them their music and if they tried to start a conversation i was very short, i really did want to engage. They kept coming back. And every time they came back the conversation became just a little bit more personal, and engage just a little bit more. And one day when a black teenager came in and he was clearly upset, i asked him what was wrong and he told me that his mother had been diagnosed with cancer. And suddenly i was able to connect with them and understand how we felt, because my grandmother had been diagnosed with cancer just before that. And when i saw the gay Couple Holding and loving her son, i recognized that was the same love that i felt for my own son. And the conversations got to be more personal, and i started to realize that with more similarities than differences, and that the differences we had were superficial. We all had the need for love and for acceptance and for success and to be able to support our families. Those are the fundamental needs that we all shared, and that all the superficial differences that i had magnified and amplified to separate myself from them were just that, they were superficial, inconsequential differences that didnt really matter in the grand scheme of things. We were human beings, and we shared these experiences. And im thankful for those people because that was the first time that i was allowed, that i allowed myself to humanize somebody else. Because before that they were monsters, they were garbage or they were cockroaches. I kept as much of the humanization out of it as possible so it was easy to hate the other, because thats what the movement was always about. It was always about lending somebody else for the problems that existed rather than reflecting integrally to see if maybe you were the contribution to that problem. It was about blaming that invisible person for everything that was going wrong in your life, for all the perceived wrong it was happening in the World Without actually knowing those people. And when i begin to meet these people i started to realize that there was nothing to hate, that they didnt match what was in my head, and now i was starting to think emotionally. I was connected. I hai have lost the ego and the fear. And everything crashed. My life fell apart. When i left the movement i close the store. I pulled the music from the shelves and because theyre so much revenue, of course i couldnt sustain the store anymore so i had to close it. I lost my livelihood. I also lost my family, my community that i built for eight years. My wife and my children left me because i didnt leave the movement quickly enough or pay them enough attention, and they just had to leave. I didnt have a great relationship with my parents, even though they tried, and essentially when i left i lost everything. And i went through a period of five years until 1999 where almost every morning i woke up and i contemplated taking my own life. Because i didnt feel, i didnt understand exactly why i wasnt feeling better. I was treating other people with respect. I was showing compassion, but i was still dying inside. At the end of that five years a friend of mine, one of the few friends i had came up to me and she said, you have to change something. I dont want you to die. I said okay, what do you suggest . She said i just got this job at this Company Called ibm, maybe youve heard of them. You can go apply there. I said youre crazy. I said i cannot fault to his all over body, im an ex nazi. I went to six high schools. I got kicked out of all of them. One of them twice. I never went to college. I dont own a computer by the way, and theres no way that the retirement it she said just try it, its an entrylevel position and i will vouch for you. Just tell them youre good with people. Okay, i guess i can say that. [laughing] and i wrote my first resume, and i live on my first resume. And i got the job i lied. And on my first day, millions of customers come on my first day, where did they put me . My old high school, the same what i got kicked out of twice to install all their computers for the store district. I was terrified. I was this grown man at the time and i was nervous, like it was my first day at school. I didnt know like how could i etched change my pants of people could recognize me. I knew the minute i walked into those hallways that they would say get out. And, of course, i walk in and the first five minutes who do i see but the old black secre secy card i got in a fist fight with that got me kicked out for the second time. You can call it fate, destiny, karma, whatever. Gods will. But i was so scared. I have never been so scared in my life. I did know what to do. I was shaking. I decided i was going to chase him to the parking lot, probably not the best move, but when i found him as he is getting into is, i tapped on the shoulder and heturned around and when you recognize me, he took a step back in fear. And i knew i had to do something, so all i could think to say was, im sorry. And he stuck out his hand and i shook it, and we embraced. Its pretty plausible we cried. Im not quite sure, it was a long time ago but im pretty certain we did. And we talked and he made me promise one thing. He made me promise that i would tell my story to other people, not because of being an ex nazi and suddenly doing better, but because you recognize that what i gone through compassing the same struggle that i had wasnt something that was unique to me pick something that every young vulnerable marginalized person goes through. And that the lessons that i learned that also the lessons that other people could learn. And maybe he had some intuition about why young people may join isis. This was way before then, because there are parallel reasons why people join gangs, why they join movements of hate and why do might travel to syria to fight for a cause that they dont really understand, or that doesnt make a whole lot of sense. The parallels are that we are searching when we are the most vulnerable for Identity Community and a sense of purpose we have a lot of marginalized young people, middle aged people, older people this world right now. A lot of people searching for answers. A lot of confusion. And its very easy for a savvy marketer or savvy recruiter to walk in front of your path or to place something in your view that tries to solve those problems for you by blaming somebody else. So i decided that because it was so hard for me that i was going to write a book. I couldnt talk to people. I was introverted or ar ashes gg to write a book and take this mans advice until the people my story. Took me ten years to do it but i finally did it. And it really is a cautionary tale for young people who might be searching for something. And in 2010 2010 i cofounded a session called life after hate, with the purpose of helping people go to that transition where they are scared to leave these movements because of the identity and because of the community, because of the purpose they may not have something that they see as another special purpose in their lives. And we help them transition out of that, to disengage from hateful ideologies and hate and hate groups, not by battling are ideologically with them, not by arguing with them or debating with him because that just polarizes people further. We see that happening today just in our political climate. What we do is we listen and we listen for what i call potholes. Before i talk about that i want to talk a little bit about what the state of the movement is today. When we think of the far right or hate groups we tend to think of a skinhead and kkk and militia people, and they still exist but they are not what they used to be. This movement has gone from what we call boots to suits if this was a concerted effort for us 30 years ago. This was no surprise, 30 years ago we had a concept called leaderless resistance where our goal was because we recognize that we were scaring away the average american races with swastikas and shaved heads that we were not going to do that, were going to grow our head, not get tattoos, go to universities and we were going to get jobs in Law Enforcement and that were going to run for office. Here we are 30 years later and what i even was skeptical about 30 years ago, where starting to see some of it happening. It is metastasizing of that cancer. They have gotten very smart, they learned how to massage the message, but the ideology is the same. Its based on fear. Whats gone from this, because of the internet, because its a place where people who are marginalized can find their communities, who can build an identity if they dont have one in real life, because of this platform, which i believe in by the way, because of this platform, what used to look like this now looks like this. Maybe like some of your daughters, grandkids, neighbors, and it looks like this. If they werent giving the salute you probably wouldnt know that they were involved. And its getting younger and younger. And if a look at this and we say well, you know, should we really be worried about these young kids who are doing this stuff . Yeah, we should, because what happens is the product of this internet radicalization, the result of that is someone like a dylann roof for walks into a church in South Carolina and murders nine people based on the color of their skin. Or it looks like alexander who walked into a mosque in quebec city recently and murdered innocent people. Or it looks like James Jackson who came here to new york in march and murdered an africanamerican man with a sword because he was trying to discourage people from interracial relationships. These are all products of the internet propaganda. The game has changed. When i was younger, when i was recruited you got a book, you got invited to a meeting, you hung out with people. It was a very social movement. Nowadays its a very virtual movement. And the scary thing about that is that is where marginalized young people live. And they are looking for answers and they are served these answers by people with very selfish missions. So what we decide to do with life after hate is to live online as well, to be reachable from the internet. So we launched the program, an initiative called exit usa and the sole purpose of exit usa is to help people disengage from hate groups and hateful ideologies. And what i said early come we dont do that by battling ideologically with them, we do it by listening. This is what he meant by that. We get contacted from three different types of people at exit usa. We get contacted by the person who is engaged and wants help getting out, we contacted by bystanders, so could be parents, friends, coworkers, girlfriends. And we get contacted by people who were engaged in this movement but found their way out, but for years thought they were the only person on earth that did that. And a debit able to talk about their expenses and because theyve never been able to talk about it, they have never been able to heal fully and be fully productive. So what we do is we come and stay to argue with him ideologically even though i set the table sometimes and i want to just shake them and say stupid, i dont do that, but what we do is we build resilience in these people. We introduce into Mental Health professionals, job training, education. Sometimes tattoo removal. We give them a support network of people that are just like them that they can talk to. We currently have a private Network Online that, on some days well talk about post your latest joke on the internet but some days they come in and for the first time in the lives it will admit that it three years old they were sexually abused, or that their son committed suicide that morning, and we rally because we understand each other. We understand where we came from. And we help each other through this thing called life. And weve been very successful with that. I would say over, since we launched the program in 2015, and i had to say hi to tony in the background. Tony is on board chair. He happened to be in new york at the same time. Tony is also a former comrades could avenue, but we help people disengage and start their lives. We have people are going on to get their phd is to equip people who are teachers. We people who for the first time because of it able to talk about this and been able to work through some of the issues that have broken them for many years, very proud of that. I just want to talk about some of the types of things that we see. So this young girl, we will call her jane, 17 from florida, her parents contacted us because they were concerned that she was making neonazi propaganda video on youtube. She is also dating a 23yearold boy from idaho. She was in florida, who was recruiting her, had written scripts for the videos and have become her virtual boyfriend. Well, after speaking to the parents and getting a little bt of information, i did my homework before it went in to speak with this girl, and i realized that this guy was not a 23yearold wife and i dont pick a fact 37yearold man from moscow. Not only was he doing get to this girl, whos doing it to 12 of the girls at the same time where he would become their virtual boyfriends, they would fall in love with him, even though they never seen them, he was in videos and photos he would steal a bind, and he would convince them to send compromising photos and videos of it themselves. And wendy decided they did want to make videos anymore or the want to leave the movement, he would blackmail them. Thats happening quite a bit online. I also want to talk about a man, 31yearold man from buffalo, wounded military veteran who was an islamophobe like ive never seen before. And i talked to him. He reached out to me after reading my book and he said ive got some questions, there some things i dont agree with that youre talking about, i would love to talk to. I said of course, lets talk. We talked for several weeks. One day come is clear to me he didnt like muslims, then one day he said, i was walking my daughter and my dog in the park and i saw a muslim man praying, and it took everything in the knuckle of him and kicking in the face while he was on the ground. And i said okay, john, im coming to buffalo, and i flew out the next day. We talked and one of the first question i asked him was, have you ever met a muslim person before . He said no. Why would he want to do that . They are evil. I dont want anything to do with them. I hate them. They are the devil. I said okay. So i excused myself and went to the bathroom and i got my phone out and googled the local mosque and called and i spoke to the imam and i said imam, i have a gentleman here who is a christian who would love to learn more about your religion. [laughing] would you mind if we stopped by . And she said yes, of course, please stop by note that only i have 50 minutes because i am preparing for my prayer service. I said we ought our way. We got into car i said lets go get some lunch. About halfway there i said when to stop her summer before we get some lunch. When i told him all i want to do was stop, turn right, throw up. I said i dont care, go ahead and threw up. But we are going. I flew to buffalo and the least you could do is just try. So we went to the mosque and a knock on the door and, of course, the imam antigone said ive got ten minutes, please come in. We could talk very briefly. Three hours later, after talking and hugging and crying and realizing all the similarities that we had, we left. Im happy to say that after a lot of work, that john and imam are now very good friends and they go out for dinner every friday. Because its the disconnection that we have. We are so afraid of what we think we dont understand that we want to push it away, and oftentimes we push it away so far that it actually turns into violence. We have two realities in this world, and there are not enough bridges crossing those realities. We have to do a better job of letting go of that irrational fear, that unconscious bias that we have letting go of reo and being vulnerable and building his bridges to the people that we claim we hate. Because the truth is most people that ive met the were part of these movements have never ever in their lives had a meaningful interaction with people that they claim the heat. I certainly didnt. Most of the people that we work with have not. And when you ask these people why did you join then, they said i just wanted to belong to something. Once you join you to give up Everything Else that is important in your life. And its hard to go back. Life after hate hopes to be that new family, that positive gain, that support network and after we make people more resilient, its Pretty Amazing here without arguing ideologically with them, the hate kind of falls away. Because now they are more resilient, more selfsufficient, more selfconfident, they have the tools and training that they need to compete. And theres no reason to blame somebody else. Theres a reason to be afraid of that other bi pic and if you par that with the emergence that will i will introduce a holocaust denier to a holocaust survivor, or an islamophobe to an imam, thats the connection that we need. All across the world there are people like me, formers, people have dedicated their lives to helping dismantle what they once built, to helping build those bridges. And im very happy to be a to tell you about this story, its a real honor to be here, a the. Its a pleasure to be here with you, and in this Wonderful Museum that tells a great story. Page of her listening to my story and i just want to give you one challenge before i leave today. I would like for you to leave today or tomorrow and hopefully every day, find somebody that you think doesnt deserve your compassion, and give it to them. Because chances are they are the ones who need it the most. Thank you very much. [applause] okay, i think we going to talk for a little bit. Christian, thank you. Thank you. Its very hard for us to really understand the journey that you have taken. And the same time its going to be difficult for you to try to explain it to us. And so we thank you because every time you tell it, you live it again. You experience it again, but its for a purpose. So with great admiration, respect for the courage, im a little bit confused. What is the problem . Is it ignorance . Is it ideology . Is it dysfunction . And if we as a society need to address it, where do we start . Now, you know, your last sentence sort of answer my question but im not your. Im not sure. But is it as simple as believing, being wanted, social dysfunction, and, therefore, everybody who is in a situation of a social dysfunction situation, however you define it, are the also susceptible to be bigots, to turn it into violence . There are, boy, that audience is huge, huge. Or, is it ignorance. Did you say yuge. [laughing] or is it ignorance . There, too, my god. Or is it where, look, i spent a lifetime dealing with these issues, and come and im not sure we are right listening to you now . Maybe, maybe we targeted the wrong thing. We argue, we need to educate, we need to love and all that, but we were preoccupied with the bigots, with the ideologues, to expose them, to put a price and a consequence on their bigotry. Whereas i listen to you, christian, our efforts should be at their potential victims. So where do we set our priorities . Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, its very hard to give a blackandwhite answer to a very complex problem but ill do my best. I really do believe that hatred is born of ignorance, that fear is its father and isolation is its mother. When we fear what we dont understand, then we never have the opportunity with it. That sometimes turns into hate. But i think really what is underneath that is a lack of opportunity. And this is not, im not planning like identity politics or anything like that. There is just a lack of opportunity for young people in this country, whether theyre in the inner cities or whether they are in Rural America. And i can tell he that standing at the alley at 14 years old had somebody pulled up in a car and said hey, youre a good artist, would you like to play guitar . Or you want to play some baseball . I know some semi pro baseball player tha they would want to hg out, i wouldve done that in a heartbeat. I was angry, and i found myself attaching to people who were angrier than me just of the eye could be angry. It was a vehicle. I dont believe come and i firmly believe this, ideology is not a driver in violent extremism. Its the vehicle. Its that since the purpose or the search for purpose, search for identity and the search for community that tries people to those things and in the ideology and the grievance and the trauma or whatever the experiencing is a catalyst and ideology is a vehicle for that. I found the angriest people i could find so i could be angry, too. I think it were going to solve this problem, and people asked all the time how do we solve racism . I said i dont know. If i knew i would when a nobel peace prize. But what i can tell he is we have the ability to affect the people closest to us, our family, our friends, our loved ones, to really just show them compassion and be the message. I think the people we dont know, compassion is also very important, and empathy, being able to put yourself in their shoes and listen to them when they say really ugly things. But to listen underneath that, to why they are saying those ugly things, and finding Common Ground and starting from the point, instead of starting from complete opposites i think is where we need to be. Because what we hate to admit it, everybody here has something in common with a neonazi. We all need to be loved. We all need money to survive and support our families. Does lots of things we have in common and if we can maybe just start there and build out from there, then maybe we will be able to build those bridges. I think somebody once did this experiment, took normal person, and the bigoted person, close up them up in a container and asked them to bring only one thing, which was a photograph of their family. And the thesis was that, what you talked about with your wife and your child, et cetera, that regardless where they came from, regardless how they felt about each other, if the only thing that was left that they had in common was family, that it would reduce the level of animosity, et cetera. I dont remember how it worked out, but what you are talking about is compassion. Basically said to all of us, you want to begin the fight, be compassionate to somebody you dont know, or even somebody that you may have an antipathy to. So, but were talking about is people to people. Now we live in a world of calm and if you dont talk to people, how do you exercise compassion . Weve seen in our lifetime, we destroyed privacy. We are on the way to destroying civility. How do you fight this miracle with such unintended consequences of undermining the values, the ability for people to talk to each other. You cant talk to each other. So this becomes the substitute for engaging that youre talking about. Every person in the term probably walked past a thousand people coming here today. Those thousand people also probably live online can maybe some of them are not fortunate enough to do that, but the truth is as we do come in contact with people all the time and we do spend a lot of our time online, but also interact with people at work and at the Grocery Store and walking from the train station. Those are the opportunities i think that can make up for the lack of connection in a place that is supposed to connect is more that is may be doing the opposite, creating more of a polarization. Theres enough opportunity to at the end of the date begin to make a difference. Applied to go back to my hotel room and read my email but on my way im going to pass a thousand people that hopefully ill be fortunate enough to give speedy you may never get to your hotel room. And i have two more questions and then well open it up. One is a more delicate question in terms of what you talked about, the moving away from the jackboots, the skinheads, the swastikas to the suits. And if you put everything together that you talked about, this frustration, this anger, this alienation, we just experienced an election which on all sides pushed all of these buttons. Is that democracy in danger . I believe so. I believe that our understanding of democracy is shifting, its changing because of things that happened if weve experienced something that nobody in our lifetimes has ever seen, and i think we have to now really understand what democracy is. You know, a lot fragile . Very fragile. We are a baby compared to the world. The united dont look at greece, not such a great model. No. But we are still try figure things out. Weve never done it right, never, right . We done a lot of things right but weve never done it complete rewrite. For people to look back and say we stand for what we were founded on, i dont fully agree with that because part of that was slavery and part of that was, you know, this class system. But i do believe in american ideals. I do believe that we are built, i think when you go back and i think it was Ronald Reagan who said you can go to japan and youll never be japanese. You can go to come im making these countries up, you can go to england and you will never be english but you can come to america and you would be american no matter who you are. And thats true. And that is to me the democratic ideal that everybody has a voice, an equal voice is that in question today . Oh, yeah, i think its always been question. I think never admitted. No. We had a conversation earlier and you made a great analogy. Racism always existed in a country. Donald trump didnt invent it. I dont even know that he, you know, speedy hes not a bigot. He is not a racist. Not an antisemite, but i never met the man so im not going to judge in. And what ive seen, but what he did do was delegitimize it in our country, what was these kind of smoldering little fires it always existed. On election day that bucket of gasoline, he kicked it over and ignited all of them. Taboos that protected our civil society. We almost had a contract with each other you want to be a big it . You can be a bigot. The constitution guarantees you the right to be a big it in your heart, in your head, but dont act about the if you act it out you pay a price. He came and broke all the taboos. What i am saying is, we were come in your way, in my way, and the lessons that we tried to teach in this museum, we try to explain to people that our society is based on certain understandings. Political correctness is not a crime and its not a sin. Its not a panacea, but you need to keep the hate that you experience, i would say in the sewers. And we threw our laws and to education and three sensitivity and through your experiences, we have put them in the sewers and we put the cover on the sewer. This last election removed that covered. And now we have to find ways to put the cover back on. But he didnt created it wasnt there. See, i dont want to put the cover back on. I want to invite them out and have coffee with them and talk to them and i want to listen and understand why they are living in the sewers. Because theres a reason. [inaudible] but everyone is nuanced. I could never speak for the person in Rural America who lost the factory and is willing to forgive me of the awful things that he said, because they have to feed their family. Im not saying thats right. Im not saying, you know, its the ideal situation but we need to listen. So its not your fault but maybe i can fix it . Right. I think we all probably contributed. I think we all to some degree still have unconscious bias and its as simple as crossing the street, if you see anybody walking down that looks threatening, and it something we deal with and we have to accept. Listen, when you have the far left and the far right are at odds with each other, and the more extreme they become, that circle, eventually they will meet and become the same thing. And the last thing we want to do is opposition to those hateful ideals is become hateful ourselves. Thats the last thing we want to do, right . In fact, we dont want to do it at all because that is not going to help us. What we need to do is find it within ourselves to say your thoughts are ugly, what you do is very ugly, how can we find a way to connect so that i can share my experiences with you without debating you, without pushing my ideas on you, without prescribing the solution to you . How can we sit down and humanize each other . Theres not a whole lot of work that needs to happen that once the humanization happens, theres already a connection there. And you build from the. I have a final question before we open it up. We both come out of, now, i guess maybe even then, of freedom of speech, venerating it, embracing it, supporting it, encouraging it. Im not sure where either one of us are 100 absolutists i think we all, we certainly accept the concept yelling fire in a theater is not protected by your experience. Has that changed your appreciation, your perception, your value of freedom of speech . You saw that hate cause violence and death. You engaged it. Does society need to protect itself from the christian . I believe in freedom of speech but also believe freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. So while you may have the right to say whatever you want, if what you say or what you do affects somebody else negatively, you must be held accountable for them. I believe that. Thats basically, okay. The floor is yours. Yes, maam. I think you need a microphone. They are recording it. I wanted to know how to other people that you were skinheads with reactive when you left, did the pressure you or treat you badly or were you able to humanize them in some way and bring some along with you . What happened with those . Good question. There were some who did come along later once i was able to kind of work to myself. I was able to reach back out to them and connect with them and pull them out. Otherwise, you know, i couldnt have been more of a race traitor, turncoat, somebody they wanted to hurt. And it still continues. I still receive even 22 years later Death Threats and threats against my family. But i can tell you this. There was one time in my life when his 14 intelligence 12 that i very bliley was willing to give my life or something that it didnt really understand anything about. You can bet your. Guest im going to do that now while i know im doing something right. I planted a lot of seats of hate in those days, 22 years later im still pulling up the weeds that are sprouting from the seeds. So not only am i filling potholes that deviate people from the original path come also a bit of a gardener, but yes, its part of the business. I could be hit by a bus or by the one train falling on the tracks but i know that im living my passion for i know i go to penn station. Its safe. This is what i meant to do because i am one of very few people in the world who have this experience conditioning knowledge and the will to be able to help people, but myself sometimes into very uncomfortable situations. But i also know its my duty because i have that information to do what i do. There was a hand in the bac. So i read your book. It was fascinating and integrating. I grew up in north georgia. I was in the punk scene in the late 80s. We were not friends. We are seeing, we always called that a bad old days, a thousand people there and 100 skinheads intimidating the entire creditor there were dozens of nazi gangs and clan groups in the area. We are seeing a big resurgence and white nationals organize and we are seeing it here in new york. There are two rock against communism gains in new york. There are tacky people in the bars. I really appreciate the work you do with [inaudible conversations] people out. I think the programs are really important, but how do you think that people should intervene with far right movements . Its in full gear and in some ways you waiting for people to spend out because of personal issues or the movement as you sort of exhausted itself and people looking for the next thing. How do you suggest people intervene with far right movements when they are in full swing . The last audited statement is partly true. We do retroactively wait for people to come to us, but the bystanders are also pointing out people that dont necessarily want to leave these movements and we also engage with them. Its not just people who have an excuse to leave. And i would say thats part of my answer is, one can understand that this is something that is completely come up to the top again. It has momentum. It is effectively recruiting hundreds of thousands of young people in this country and abroad here its probably just as dangerous if not more dangerous in europe, because they are in a sense of historical nationalism there. We need to speak up when we see it. When you do not be afraid to speak up but also know where to draw the line to weather becomes an ideological battle it because i can tell at 18 years old if you told me i was wrong or if you punish me in the face at a rally or canceled my gym membership or anything thats happening to some of the people and the alt right today i wouldve come back with a gun. It wouldnt have deterred me. It would have it would not have changed who i was there we have to find a way to connect with people that are sometimes the ugliest people around. And i know its not for everybody. I know its not something, there are groups that are on the left that better try to solve it with violence. What i see happening is the right becoming more violent and going because now theyre feeling more marginalized and the people who are also marginalized are joining these groups. They are using that as ammunition to grow. So when i see a nazi walking down the street my first instinct is i probably want to punch him, too, but i know thats not effective. It wouldnt have been effective for me or the thousands of people we work with. So we have to find a way, i know this is not a popular idea but we have to find a way to feel the empathy for them and find a way to show them compassion because almost every person we work with will tell you that they changed because somebody that they didnt expect it from our didnt deserve it from showed them compassion when you least deserved it. And then you have isis. I dont think what you said fits that category. What level of compassion would work there . Yes, maam. I would say that would work for isis supporters, people are becoming radicalized, but this really is a battle for good and evil. Not in a religious sense but the truth is 99 of us, and also from a religious perspective. 99 of us live in the middle. What happened to them in the end into your personal life and have you ever considered going into politics . My little boys are now 24 and 22 and they are amazing human beings who i have a wonderful relationship with it so well as my parents. My mother does call me too much, but she hasnt figured out how to text message at, she called me a little halfhour before. Not now, mom. I have a wonderful relationship with my family. Once i was able to forgive myself eventually, i became a better father and a better husband, better friend, better human being and im not going to rule out chicago mayor for my future. You never know. [inaudible] to get you leave sooner than you did. [inaudible] that was my question. I took my parents about a year to figure out what i was involved in. Is he doing kid stuff . I was hiding it a lot the first year. Once they figured it out, they were terrified. They were concerned about my safety. They didnt understand. There is one point where my mom said, bless her heart, this hitler guy, why do you like him . Go for someone italian like al capone at least. [laughter] she wouldve tried Anything Possible to get me away from what i was involved in. Thanks to my parents, i am here today because they never gave up on me. Thats the white house calling. [laughter] im very grateful for the fact that my parents didnt give up on me. Even when i didnt have a Good Relationship and wanted nothing to do, and i thought why cant you understand what im telling you, trying to save you. I really thought i was saving the world. If they wouldve given up on me, i dont know that i would be here now. Right behind you. How do u. S. A nation get rid of me of me because of somebody like trump who encourages or thinks its okay to want to punch the person in the face . How does that make it right, how do we get to change out because thats huge when we have a president who is such an idiot. Your way up the subject, but okay. We vote. We did an enough. We didnt mobilize enough. Lets talk outside in the hallway because we could talk for hours on that subject. I think we need to understand we live in a broken society and with a lot of things to fix. The things that we kept in the sewer and put the lid on, we need to recognize that they existed and i keep them in the sewer. If they are in the sewer they will grow, faster and eventually come out and start to infect other people. So we need to not be afraid to deal with the awkward, very tough conversations. This potentially could be a very big reset for us to realize that this still exists. Believe it or not, people thought we were living in a postracial society. You can probably ask the people of color in this room if that exists and they would tell you no. Weve never lived in a postracial society. And thats the truth. Christian, im just thinking, it sounds so wonderful, take them under the sewers, embrace them. If you had embraced, gotten up one morning, gotten this revelation, came into your group of followers in didnt embrace them, they wouldve punched you. They could have even killed you because they would have suspected something et cetera, et cetera that they couldnt deal with. So im not its one thing to reach out to the bus drivers. It is quite another we are talking about people who are bigoted i believe, by profession, okay. So, to spend time, i would rather we spend time in changing our society, which removes bullying, which removes an employee may, which teaches respect because everything on top of the sewers, even if they come out will have nobody to recruit. What we do in life after he is very much like dr. John paul sauk treated polio. We treat those who are sick to intervention, but we also know that in order to keep other people from being sick we have to inoculate the population for that disease. So there is prevention. What you are talking about is prevention. I absolutely wholeheartedly believe in that take away victims. We dont bring opportunity to the people who need it the most will continue to have this problem. Because really going down to the depths where i was was not an ideological thing. It was a selfhatred thing. It was how can i hurt other people more than i hurt myself. We do have to deal with the trauma and tony taught me to talk about the shame people how and equip them at a young age to be more inclusive, to be more understanding, to be more accepting of diversity and just other people in general. Its interesting, i was that much in a couple weeks ago. I spoken whitefish, montana and had a very difficult situation there. I didnt see one person of color the whole time i was in the day. I was there for six days. I said who do you guys hate here . Native americans. Thats what they have. If we are marginalized and disconnected from each other, it doesnt matter who the other person is. Black, white, brown, green. We play with that it is unfortunate because as terrible as nine 9 11 was coming one day i saw american unified it didnt matter who you are or where you came from. That to me gave me hope for just a minute. But i know that we can get back there. We have to here and one in the balcony. Thanks for your story. Your book is fascinating in your message as well. My question is based upon your experience in the examples you brought up, it seems like your organization and your efforts are grounded more towards white supremacist. Is there any outreach is there any approach you guys are doing or, to name an example, muslim extremists and percentagewise how much of your efforts have been changed . Thats a good question. I dont like to use toward a system inspired because it doesnt reflect any muslim ideals. We focus on the far right because that is our background. However, i also know that what we do transfers over to gangs, transfers over to isis inspired extremists or jihadist or two left wing extremists as well. We do have a very Large Network of former jihadist that we were quiet, but i personally have also worked with people when i was in belgium, its really interesting, when i was indulged in a few months ago, a man reached out to one of the municipalities i was speaking in and he was a return foreign fighter and had done his prison time and restraint to reintegrate. He was having a hard time doing that because he had nobody talked to. He couldnt talk to people in this community because some of those people thought he was a traitor, right . He couldnt talk to the community because someone want to associate because if they were seen talking to him, authorities might think of the terrorists. He really had no network in the sauk meow. He reached out and said i really would love to speak to this man we met in brussels on a lot around and spent three hours that seemed to be the magic number for some reason. We spent three hours together in our stories were so strikingly parallel it was mind blowing. Out of our parents were immigrants. They both settled in areas where people were really friendly to immigrate. His brother had been killed in theory. My brother was murdered after i left the movement. We struggled with that identity in that loss of community and sense of purpose because we both really believe what we were doing at the time was the righteous thing to do, but we were saving the world that he couldnt understand for the life of us white people couldnt understand that. I do think that someday in our future when we have the ability to scale in that direction, we would like to offer our services are our services or at least partner with organizations that can offer those may be culturally specific services. I do believe that fundamentally opportunity in finding cause of avenues are the best way to go. Thank you. The most important question for me to know is that pontiac really make a firebird in 1968 . No, just kidding. I love facebook. I go on it all the time, whatever time i have, i really enjoy it. I like to connect with my friends and a lot of its interesting and fun things to see. One day, somebody posted something about the rothschilds. Ive heard this name throughout my life. I still dont know anything about them, but for that one moment i decided just, who are these people . So i wrote the name in the search box and it mustve been some kind of algorithm because all these other sites came up and they were very subtle. They didnt seem to have behaved jews. There was something about it that pardon the phrase, wasnt quite kosher. My question to you is because you mentioned how subtle this movement is, what are some words that even somebody, and experienced facebook person like myself should look out for . Now we are talking my language. Yeah, first of all, i want to touch on your topic of algorithms. Thats very important. What happens when you go online whether its social media or googling thing, there are algorithms that exist that act as a recommendation. Just like when you go to amazon and buy pampers diapers it should say you should buy huggies. News is the same way. When you start reading this fake news stories, these propaganda stories, they will keep recommending them to you because it thinks thats what you want. The danger that as you go down into a silo, into a bubble into your own reality with very little crossover. This happens on both the left and right. This is not exclusive to neo not these. It is hard to distinguish what is real news about propaganda, fake news, parody, theres so much information out there. Weve lost our sense of political thinking in many regards because weve become so reliant on the parties that be. So now talk about some of the dog whistles that they use for the subtle rebranding of things that they use when they are really talking about when i hear it i think i know exactly what theyre talking about. They use the terms globalization end quote list these days to really describe kind of the International Bankers and the jewish controlled finance system. Thats really what theyre talking about. They will, you know, theyve become very, very good at massaging their message so they are not saying jews control the media. They are calling it the liberal media now. There were accusations in the last donald trump at that he ran on election day with a star of david was used next to a picture of hillary clinton. When the voiceover was talking about the globalist, pictures of george soros and famous jewish people. When i saw that video, the first thing i said was wow, this is a white power video. I wouldve made this 30 years ago. And that could have written the speech is that he is saying. What theyve gotten really good at doing is theyve massaged the message. The tone it down so its palatable to the average person. If you go to average american races in the south and say take the flag and put it on your wall. That the antiamerican. That may be a Confederate Flag or something else, yeah, i hate what people. All had that on my wall. So theyve really gotten very good at marketing, at packaging. The suits, you know, they still have the same haircut, and the same suits. It is just a progression. Its metastasized into some and that is more easily palatable for the average american who has agreements, thats a legitimate grievance about something in their life that is to not blame somebody else or put aside or not Pay Attention to the misogynistic comments are the racist comments are the antiimmigrant comment because you know what, ive got to feed my family in this town of 42 people where i cant find a job. Its not right, but thats the reality. At the same time, you dont have to be so sophisticated. You dont have to look for euphemisms. The once euphemisms, and the algorithms will give you. I dont know if you understand algorithms. It is part of the science of the technology, which continuously is the message is pro and in every issue. The biggest whatever issue operates 24 7. And so, the mechanism measures negative pros and cons. So if the traffic out there by the bigot is such that when you plug on to true, youll get antitruth first and then you look at protruth because that is the way the messengers are imploding in the cloud system. Same thing on holocaust. Denial because the 24 7 biggest operating on those networks, that is what they are feeding. In my days at the adl, we went to palo alto. We went to see the geniuses and we said to them, float from a thank you for all these wonderful things that youve given a, but they are unintended of your genius and the unintended consequence is that you now give a preeminence, too. The negatives, there are two of algorithm and with all due respect nonsense. We see it now. When an issue arises on the algorithmic chart, which hurts the commercial value of that server, whether their yahoo , google or whatever, all of the sudden they have a way to deal with the algorithms. Another thing is dont be alert, be aware, respond. Last thing on this. One of the meetings we went to to complain when you log on, they said tell the Jewish Community to go on the internet and say nice things about the jews. We have nothing else to do, but three times a day, go on there. But by the way, we did it. There was a campaign and within a month we did change it. But thats not our job to protect. So it is a very serious problem. Not only sophisticated, but the crude manner as well. Is fighting a losing battle as well because they are using artificial intelligence. Dont become a conspiracy theorist like them. Im so glad im the last. Im going to try to be unemotional, but im sitting here at the museum of jewish heritage, a living memorial to the holocaust. My mother was in auschwitz, berg and housing. Going to be 90 years old next month. My father is 93, also holocaust survivor. I am here for the first time to visit this museum because i like the topic and im shocked. I am so shocked at the fact that firstly, christian time i want to tell you i love you. Im passionate yet im a child of survivors. Ive named mr. After my grandmother who was exterminated. Most of my mothers all of my mothers brothers and sisters were all exterminated. My father, out of 12 children have survived. Also in born israeli. I was born in a prison i hope youre going to end with a question. Im. Im going to ask you, how can you with the events right now going on, what ever you think of mr. Trump or president trump. Thank you for your compassion, christian because i want to bring compassion for this room, whether you are to the left or the right, theres an insane man who believes he can make a difference in a positive way. My parents brought me here to america. Your question is . The question is how could you sit here and not recognize the fact that right now americas leadership in the world is meeting with the three different nature religions in their attitude and thinking is how can we bring peace to the world . How can we fight with evil in the world . We are sitting here in the Holocaust Museum making fun of a man whos on a mission in the mission as the best mission you can think of in this world. Respectfully, this is not a question. Im not cure for anything political. I just want to tell mr. Christian. Youre right. Compassion and education acumen is what we need to do here at the thank you for coming. At the free design of the. I hope you read his book. Thank you. The lasting respectfully i need as a holocaust survivor is a lecture from someone else to tell me how i should act, believe, stand in terms of our tradition. You have a view, i respect it. It doesnt have to necessarily be our views. Again, respectfully, it is really out of place. Your comments are out of place. This is not a discussion or conversation whether we like the president , whether we agree with his politics, come for another lecture where it is. This deals with christians experience to better understand the forces of hatred, bigotry and prejudice that reside in our society. Our environment is part of it here at our election system and what happened is part of it. But what you are talking about, with all due respect, has very little to do with what we are about. Come to another lecture where that is the subject. Thank you. Let me conclude. Christian, the word [inaudible] feel free to come up afterwards. Happy to answer anyones questions. I also see tonys hand out. Christian, the words thank you for us to say to you that for you to have the chaos, the strength, the courage, fortitude, its not the first time. I dont compare when i used to speak, speak about my holocaust experience. It was very difficult. It was very difficult because you bare your soul. You bury your. Just to stay thank you isnt enough. But that is the best word. We value, we appreciate, we know it is painful and it is buried in your soul of moments of despair in ugliness in your life for a greater purpose and for the greater purpose to inspire us, and again everything weve heard and argued and said, your request because all the other things are difficult. How do you change society, how do you change people one step at a time, one person at a time. After all that you have gone through, what do you want us to do . You want us to be nice to somebody we dont know. You know what . It is so little and yet its the whole world. God bless you. Continue the message. Come back, be strong. Penances not supposed to be easy. Thank you so much. I believe they are selling books in the library. [inaudible] i would love to sit and talk to all of you. If we could meet over there, that would be great. I look over to speaking with you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Soundtrack senior publicity, what you have coming out of all 2017 . We have a big, big this fall. I mean, really big, 800 pages big. Its called a symbol. It is to look at the city as a hub of commerce, but also a hub of culture in the many incarnations that the city has had. Amazing research. He actually went to a symbol and a very long time theyre researching it. We think that it is going to tell people about a country, but tell them in a way that is quite apolitical. We have a wonderful book by steven bone. Hes the canadian author, lives in canada. When he decided to send two ships from siberia to what was known as alaska any data as a trip to do some work, but of course chaos ensued. The shipwreck on a desert island. They have nothing but pharaoh fox is on the. So feral foxes, peter the great. Is based in boston. Why do you come to new york every year . Multiple reasons. It helped to find out and also a wonderful chance to meet with the media appear but not with the producer of nprs marketplace. I just saw fox news reducer who we deal with a lot. Its a big chance to show them our fall last and then highlight a few titles that would be appropriate for them. Give me one more title youre excited about this fall. Agosta brooklyn by robert watt and is about a ship that was harbored in berkeley during the revolution, the american revolution. There is a prison ship, terrible, terrible conditions. He made a career of researching ships that played a role in war. He did a book not too long ago. If you like maritime stories but also American History or world history, Robert Watson is your guy. The senior director of publicity and the Vice President there. Thank you for your time. Welcome to portland, oregon on booktv, located in the northwestern part of the state at the willamette and columbias and columbia sperber, oregons largest city with a population of about 800,000. Our Comcast Cable partners over the next 90 minutes will travel the city to talk with local authors about