Testimony on the Russia Ukraine war and a potential war crimes from global criminal justice ambassador at large before the Senate Foreign relations committee. The ambassador discussed ways that russia could be brought to justice and accusations that the pentagon withheld evidence of war crimes. This is an hour and 15 minutes. The senate of Foreign Relations hearing will come to order. For well over a year now weve seen h the holder of putins illegal unprovoked invasion and the brutality he has inflicted on the people of ukraine. Russian airstrikes have destroyed schools, flattened apartment buildings, killed and babies. Werd have witnessed strikes on bomb shelters where children and their caregivers have gone for protection. Attacks on civilian facilities into systematic targeting of civilian infrastructure. It is a nightmare that does not let up. According to International Human rights organizations, Russian Forces, villageup schools, airpt hangers, whatever they could find and converted them into makeshift torture chambers where they beat, electrocute and threaten to mutilate ukrainian detainees. Theyve kidnapped ukrainian children, raped ukrainian women and girls, executed ukrainian men and starved innocent civilians make no mistake these acts are war crimes and crimes against humanity. Mass atrocities putin must be held responsible for. Even as the war rages on in ukraine we must do everything we can to gather and preserve evidence on these atrocities to lay the groundwork for justice. So, ambassador, i want to hear from you about what the u. S. Government is doing to support these efforts. I commend the state department for earlyme on in the war callig russian atrocities what they are, war crimes and the departments determination departments determination earlier this year that the crimes mounted to a widespread systematic attack against ukraine civilian population in other words that they are crimes against humanity is laudable. Now, ambassador, i commend you personally for your tireless effort and work shining a light on atrocities around the world to combat impunity not only for russian crimes but also war crimes and crimes against humanitys and countless other countries from burma to syria to ethiopia to north korea. But it cannot just be you and your colleagues in the department of state and justice. Our entire government and the International Community must always follow up with actions. Ukraines prosecutor general cross chronicled more than 88,000 alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity to date. 88,000, and that number continues to grow. Thanks to the testimony of brave ukrainians who suffered unspeakable horrors and risked their lives so that we could know the truth, the world and this body are rallying to seek accountability. Because not taking concrete actions to bring putin and those responsible for these atrocities to justice would set a dangerous precedent. Last year on a bipartisan basis, congress day of the executive branch important new authorities to provide information and other support to the International Criminal courts war Crimes Investigation and i commend them for issuing arrest warrants for putin and his socalled commissioner for childrens rights. But here in the United States, while we may be saying the right words and calling out these crimes, the administration has not used the tools we have provided to help hold putin accountable. It simply is inexcusable. It calls into question the resolve and commitment to justice. There are real consequences to this in action and the rest of the world is taking note. I know there are many who support assisting the icc including our witness today. The state department has encouraged working with the icc to bring putin to justice but its no secret that the department of defense is the hold up. I asked the department of defense to participate in todays hearing so we could better understand why they are blocking implementation of federal law. Whatever they are thinking, the refusal to implement the law is unacceptable in this situation, blocking critical u. S. Assistance for investigations into atrocities in ukraine and is dangerous to our system of government. The Defense Department doesnt get to pick and choose which laws it will obey. The Defense Department doesnt get to pick and choose which laws it will obey. The United States needs to provide full support for investigations that could lead to Holding Russian officials accountable. As we continue to hear about the Russian Forces boiling peoples hands in water, systematically raping women while threatening their children, killing innocent civilians in cold blood, we cannot sit and do nothing. Much of the world has come together in impressive unity with response to this but we must make sure our efforts do not end with condemnation. We must seek and to deliver accountability. So, ambassador, i look forward to exploring with you what more can be done to ensure that putin and others are brought to justice for their war crimes, crimes against humanity and aggression including by supporting the icc. We must show that this is about more than words. There must be and will be accountability for the crimes against the ukrainian people. With that, let me turn to the Ranking Member. Thank you mr. Chairman, to start with let me say for the record im an absolute full agreement with the remarks that the chairman made in his Opening Statement. All the subjects that heme covered. Im glad we are discussing this important subject here today. I wish we had had time to have a ukrainian witness who could testify to the horrors although most of it thats all been publicized and i understand when time is always an issue a and im like the chairman, i would like to have had somebody here from the Defense Department to talk to us about why they think they dont have to comply with the laws that we pass. It doesnt make sense. But we are not done with that and im sure they know that. The atrocities putin has committed in ukraine after russias fullscale invasion of ukraine february 22 in fact this committee passed by resolution last congress labeling the despicable crimes against ukrainians as such. Russian forces deliberately targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure in the campaign to a erase ukraine off the map. One of the most egregious crimes was the bombing from the hospital in mariupol last march. Countless citizens, civilians had been killed and there own beds. The International Committee must remain steadfast in documenting and prosecuting the war crimes. The range of these occur on a multipronged response with a variety of jurisdictions to cover every aggressor from the master planners to the foot soldiers. I welcome the recent decision to issueo arrest warrants and the commissioner for childrens rights. For their despicable roles in the deportation of hundreds of thousands of ukrainians to russia in particular, children. Then filtration camps were the detainees are torturing citizens before transferring them into russia are particularly depraved. Beyond their work the office of the ukrainian prosecutor general recorded over 85,000 potential war crimes as the chairman noted. Its important ukraine exercise its jurisdiction and prosecute domestically. Im proud of the United States provided assistance for the documentation of the war crimes and this committee is going to see that that is enforced in our oversight capacity. We cannot allow putin and his cronies to get away with the vicious crimes they are committing. Impunity is not an option. I look forward to hearing from you on the different avenues to pursue justice as well as littles the United States can do to increase its support for accountability to the ukrainian people. Thank you, senator. As the ambassador for global criminal justice, ambassador advises the secretary of state and other departmental leadership on issues related to the prevention of and response to atrocity crimes including war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. A world renowned scholar on human rights law, International Justice issues with significant experience and practice and academia. E she taught most recently at stanford law where she directed the human rights conflict resolution clinic so we welcome you, ambassador. Your full statement will be included in the record without objection i would ask you to summarize it in about five minutes or so with a fair amount of interest in the committee so we can have a conversation with you a and with that you are recognized. Good afternoon mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the committee thank you so much for the opportunity to address you today its an honor and privilege to appear before you at the sixth u. S. Ambassador at large for global criminal justice. Senators, as president zelenskyy so aptly noted earlier this month, there can be no peace without justice in ukraine. This is justice for the millions of people whose lives have been disrupted and destroyed as a result of this senseless unlawful, unprovoked terrible board of territorial conquest launched by president putin. My office in collaboration with other offices and the government and Many International partners, sovereign and Civil Society is working to strengthen five pathways to justice, to uphold the International Norms that we all hold dear and to ensure that thoser most responsible for thee abuses are held to account. We welcome your support in each. So, the first pathway involved International Courts and institutions. Our efforts here include working to establish and then to renew the mandate of the United Nations commission of inquiry devoted to ukraine, multiple invocations of the moscow mechanism of the organization for cooperation in europe. Weve also sought to intervene in the case before, against russia after the Genocide Convention before the International Court of justice and finally as mentioned, the prosecutor of the International Criminal court made his first move has opened an investigation into the matter in ukraine and has successfully achieved two arrest warrants. We are grateful for thee Bipartisan Legislation congress has enacted in support of the investigation in ukraine that may be the most consequential war Crime Investigation in Human History since nuremberg. The second pathway to justice aims to strengthen and increase the capacity of ukrainian institutions the document, u investigate and prosecute crimes and ukrainian courts. This is the front line of justice. It offers thee. Prosecutor genel as mentioned has not recorded almost 90,000 potentially prosecutable crimes. Through the Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group funded by my officeof with the European Union and thed united kingdom, we are providing expert assistance and advice, capacity building, expert training on a whole range of prosecutorial and investigative needs of the prosecutor general working with them in the field to strengthen their ability to prosecute the cases and to sit through these 90,000 potential prosecutable crimes. This includes a very focused ved attention to the scourge of Sexual Violence that we know is rampant in ukraine as documented by the United Nations and other reputable bodies. The third pathway to justice is supporting strategic litigation that may happen in third states. In europe we witnessed the Mass Mobilization of prosecutorial and investigative authorities operating under the umbrella to coordinate strategies to attract potential defendants and share information and evidence. The United States is participating in these efforts through the memoranda of understanding with individual states to engage with of the joint Investigative Team informed by a number of european states and also by working with Civil Society organizations. Antiimpunity organizations providingg potential evidence, witnesses et cetera to National Prosecutorial authorities. Prosecutions for the crime of aggression offer a fourth pathway to justice. Permitting impunity for russias illegal war of aggression well inl bold and other actors who will engage in a similar blatant violations of state sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence. For this reason we are supporting the establishment of the special tribunal dedicated to the prosecution of the crime ofof aggression to those most responsible. One that is rooted in ukraines domestic system but that is enhanced by multiple International Elements in the form of personnel, expertise, structure, support, information sharing, financing. The final pathway to justice leads here to the United States. This involves continuing to strengthen u. S. Law and ensuring that the United States does not become a safe haven for those who commit International Crimes, such as those committed in ukraine but also elsewhere. Congress has taken a monumental step in this direction by passing the justice for war crimes act to enhance the federal war crime statute. But theres more that can be done c to provide u. S. Prosecuts with the tools they need to prosecute International Crimes as the Deputy Attorney general said recently before the Senate Judiciary committee, the United States lacks the crimes against humanity statute. Crimes against humanity encompass a range of abuses including murder, torture, rape. When they are committed in the context of a widespread or systematic attack against civilian population pursuant to a policy of either state or an organization to commit the attack they can be committed during Armed Conflict but also in times of peace, so they can be quite useful in other situations such as where the prc subjected to a Continuous Campaign of genocide and crimes against humanity. Passing crimes against humanity legislation will betterla align the law with all of our friends and allies and alsoo in power u. S. Prosecutors and investigatorsos to prosecute the whole range of International Crimes. Senators, there can be no secure or lasting w peace without justice. Holding russia to accountti for its work crimes, crimes against humanity and other atrocities within ukraine and against the ukrainian people is foundational to the defense of u. S. Values and the maintenance of a peaceful, just and secure world. We welcome the support of congress to achieve these goals to advance these five pathways to justice and to position the United States asit a leader in International Justice. So with that i thank you and welcome yourco questions. Thank you, ambassador. So, last year i was at the International Criminal court and i spoke with a prosecutor general of the hague. We had a good conversation. I understand the department of defense has expressed concerns that assisting the investigation could open the door to prosecutions of u. S. Service members, something that has largely been dismissed by legal experts. I raised this issue with the prosecutor general. It wasnt his intention but i instructed the United Nation to do that. If anything, he actively solicited the support of the United States particularly on information to substantiate the cases. Do you share those concerns that have been raised by the department of defense . I will say at the outset in my role as the lead diplomat in the internationalus justice spae i would work tirelessly to ensure that no u. S. Personnel would be brought before the icc if that were ever to come to passf again but i do not think that is a risk at this time. The prosecutor already announced he has de prioritized any investigation into International Forces in afghanistan and is instead turning his attention as is appropriate to ongoing crimes againstt humanity committed by the tele band, isis and other nonstate actors in afghanistan. In addition, we know that the courtt operates under a principe of complementarity so that if the National System steps up, the court will step back. That is what the prosecutor has said and we have a robust system of military justice and we now have the new war crimes act so we are in a very good position to take care of any matters that might emerge in the future or hypothetical situation. I do not think that the argument by assisting in this matter, which involves the national nonstate party we are at all undermining our ability to robustly protect against any charges that might be brought or interest in personnel in the future. I appreciate that an analysis because my own discussion with him in front of other members, ourr members, he said exactly te same thing. So, i dont understand why the department of defense is not providing critical information so that we can ultimately get accountabilityet here. Why does the state department to support providing information and assistance to the ukraine investigation . What do we have to contribute to the call . You mentioned some of it in your Opening Statement. How critical it is our assistance versus other sources . Its hard to imagine standing on the sidelines in this investigation given all that we have done, the investmente weve made in ukraine and pursuing justice in ukraine. We are uniquely positioned to assist in the investigation within the assets that we have and the intelligence, the brilliance of ource diplomats ad subject matter and regional experts in the state department and elsewhere theres many ways we can beca supporting this with witness protection, insider witnesses that may want to give testimony all of that are ways that in the past we have assisted with International Prosecutions before hybrid courts so there are a range of ways we could be of assistance and none of that would jeopardize infected think it strengthens our position because it shows that engagement works. Its important to maintain open lines of communication with International Organizations not just the court but others that might make decisions we disagree with. Its important to engage with constructive helpful assistance when we can because that shows that we are a good faith trusted partner so when we have issues within International Organization we knowo who to call. We have lines of communication open and we felt trust that we can a then rely on and call upon if we are ever finding ourselves in a defensive posture. Senator kunz heard the same thing t and one of the things we heard is that the icc is never had the nature of the challenge of the nationstate as large as russia. And as an adversary in a sense, of course, because putin dictates what that nationstate does. The to pursue people who speak out against the regime. What more does the icc need to do to protect witnesses and victims to protect its own security and Cybersecurity Infrastructure . This is unlike anything the icc has ever undertaken so can you speak to that . You are exactly right and the heard the same thing in hague that the icc has come to niceties. The court feels like its under assault. They have the skills and ability to infiltrate the institution in ways that previous situation did not present but you may read recently theres attempt to place an intern masquerading as a brazilian graduate student and we are now presaging that individual for a spying and other measures that states under coverin here. That means they are taking to protect themselves against this particular investigation and given her tech sector and are excellent cybersecurity understanding and the skills and personnel we are uniquely positioned to be able to audit what protections the court has been to maketi recommendations about how they can strengthen their ability to protect evidence but also to protect those witnesses. No matter how much evidence is out there m and we know their terabytes being generated these cases always rely upon individuals willing to speak truth to power and willing to step up and put themselves and their families at risk because they can tell a story and bear witness to what they have experience. Need to to keep those individuals save. Cy we need to keep them alive. Senator risch. Thank you mr. Chairman that ambassador i think its obvious to most people the issue we are talking about is not a partisan issue. Do you agree with me in that regard . I do and i appreciate the bipartisan cooperation we have seen on the legislation and supporting my work and the work of myy office. They are loud voices who dissent our involvement in ukraine. My experience in congress is thats a thin layer. I feel like ive had nothing but support from many of the members and staff. Appreciate that. Interesting that the chairman and i talked about in her Opening Statement saying for whatever reason the department of defense is pushing back on doing what we Congress Told them to do and is the chairman has indicated a pair prayer going to tolerate an agency saying well we dont like that law so we are going to enforce it so we will be doing something about that. The other thing i would point out for the record is i was involved in drawing up that discretion. When you deal with the icc you are always cognizant of the fact that there could be pitfalls and there could be a problem putting the u. S. Servicemen in jeopardy. We scrupulously avoided that in specifically to see that didnt happen yet we wind up in the same criticism after it has passed. I want to know for the record i was not contacted by anybody from the department of defense. We didnt drafted under a bushel basket. He was out in the open we put out the text in the wood came forward and said this is probably now they are talking about it being a problem. I hope you press the mod with what certainly need to be done. I agree the legislation is crafted and its surgical in fact. All of the protections of american servicemembers protection act are made in place. In addition to more than 100 bilateral treaties the state department issue with partners which the party prefer not to refer to the course all those protections remain in place. The way we provide assistance without jeopardizing u. S. Personnel. Weha do provide assistance without in any way affecting the strong provisions that have been put in place and have worked very well. We will be reiterating that with the department. Could you go into with your background and experience in Legal Training could you talk about in detail how an internationally tribunal for the crime of aggression could be established to address russias actions in ukraine im talking about something, i guess what i envision as something separate from icc and i really appreciate your hearing your thoughts on that. And youre exactly right the icc does not have jurisdiction because russias not ratified the statue so thats given rise to proposals to establish a dedicated tribunal in this regard. Trading see the crime of aggression as the original and thats unleased all the otherer war crimes. And rightfully so. And rightfully so. As we look at the different models and as i drew on my own experience as a prime practitioner with hybrid tribunals i was guided by five main principals number one we want to maximize accountability number two light to create an institution as nimble and efficient in its ability to work in number three want to create an institution is legally sound within the u. N. Charter system and expand International Law. Number four we want to make sure this is complementary to other effortso that are out there including the ipc but also the center for the prosecution of the which is stood up and hageman want to garner Widespread International support for this effort. In looking at all of those factors in the various models we have landed upon a proposal for an internationalized chamber or special tribunal that would be deeplyrooted within the ukrainian National System but would benefit from assistance from a number of international sources, stayed in a private sector could be assisting in this endeavor. This could take the form of personnel and the way the United States is sorry to thehe International Court in courts around the world today could take the form of funding information sharing but it could be based outside of ukraine for security security reasons. Back moved into ukraine and the time is right. It has the added benefit if investing in ukrainian judicial system Prosecutorial Authority etc. Which we know will pay long evidence in the future is ukraine continues to modernize and reform itself and to ally itself with the rest of europe. Thats why we have and are proposing an internationalized tribunals aware of promoting this an advantage the to bring experts together on the diplomatic level but also at a technical level to explore the various models and try to find a consensus to move forward. I know im hard time but i wanted to ask another question. I was fascinated, as we all know common law develops whether its International Law and iaw was fascinated by think it was what one would Call International jurisdiction or unified jurisdiction. I forgot the exact name but they actually used it in convicting some people as a result of atrocities in syria. First of all are you familiar with the concept and i seem you are and secondly is there some thought given to using that as a jurisdictional foundation for this type of an organization . Yeah. Its universal or extraterritorial jurisdiction. However present jurisdiction because it hasnt added requirement that the defendant a presence that it that it doesnt matter the nationality of the victim or the place the crime was committed because all states have been deputized. Im very familiar with the chairman experience and its remarkable to see theyve been able to move against highlevel figures of the assad regime in syria and members of isil who have found themselves in germany. I think in many respects they inspire other u. N. European states. Aggression does not work as well under that model precisely because many states have not codified it in their domestic penal code. Ukraine does have a provision sort of a sovereign provision and they are doing active prosecutions now for the crime with the mayor domestic system but i think they would like to see an internationalized effort because they see russias war is not just an assault on their territory but in the salt on the whole rule space to order writ large and i want the international International Community involvement International Community involvement as ever. Thats a secondary reason toty pursue worth an internationalized body sosu hava lot of international support. I guess it would be a certain. I detect a bit of a concern with countries not having a specified statute in place regarding this. I guess where we are plowing the ground on this newn jurisdictional ibf i wouldnt be as concerned with the fact that other countries didnt necessarily have that in their body of law. It just means they would have to prosecute for war crimes or werel crimes against humanity d chargess that would make perfect sense. Many of the acts of aggression are being committed by virtual war crimes come attacks on critical elements of the civilian infrastructure. It can be done is the short answer. Say thank you. Thank you and im going to follow up on senator rischs point enter reference a resolution that senator cain and i filed today that supports your effort for an International Tribunal. It takes a different approach to that and i want to go through that with you by my. Theres no question about russias crime of aggression and nopr question about their committing crimes against humanity and genocide. We had hearings on this committee that the establish that and we have had hearings on the helsinki commission. All the conditions for genocide had been committed by russia and yes i strongly support our efforts to help the icc. I strongly support our efforts to help the ukrainian prosecutor inay any way that we can. These are crimes against humanity and they really do need an International Tribunal as you have acknowledged. The problem with the approach that you are taking within the ukrainian model is that you are reducing your ukrainian system. I dont know how you overcome that with a method that you are pursuing. You also will have legal immunity claims because the entity that has committed or individuals that have committed these crimes are not going to be a a party to do so today theres a simple approach. Established the United Nations. Thats the International Body that is responsible ultimately for International Tribunals. Not only would it bring appropriate attention to these atrocities but it gives us a pathway to accountability and gives us the greatest hope that it will deter future atrocities. So tell me how, why we are not going through an entity that would remove any question of perceived impartiality and any question of immunity. Thank you for that question senator. A couple of responses. Number one i think they are serious concerns moving forward under the General Assembly on the legal front but also the practical france starting with the legal front the body within the united stations nation system is paralyzed because russia has the privilege of the veto. I agree. General assembly has failed so it ultimate power. They can only make recommendations and i cant take course of action so it cannot tell states act nor can it compel states to cooperate with anything so the legal question is could the General Assembly created court that could exercise compulsion against an individual . Dont they have a stronger claim than one state establishing an International Tribunal under their law . It would be an internationalized tribunal. Its a ukrainian system and this is international. I think you run into a comparable severe challenge to the tendency of the entities that would come before the tribunal. My civil procedure professor used to say civil procedure power and is ukraine National System which has plenary jurisdiction over crimes committed on general territory in the General Assembly its not clear that it would be breaking serious new ground to try and exercise coercive jurisdiction over nonwilling defendant and to suggest that defendant to limitations on their liberty if that person was convicted. Thats a legal concern but i want to talk about thek practicl concern which a speaking tour diplomats in new york theres serious concern about whether we have the vote in the General Assembly to create a body of this nature so if you look at the voting pattern of what we see is general resolutions that condemn russias actions of cedric garner votes. The minute the General Assembly wants to do something it drops critically so they got 90 something both kicking russia up the Human Rights Council garnering over 93 votes and they are serious concern that states that dont want to get caught in the rival of the cold war dynamic and dont want to be on record voting for something. You would lose the legitimacy. I recognize that but i would think we have to engage other countries. Ou it cannot be a sole u. S. Effort in the United States cannot sit on the sidelines. Test to be a collection action collective action you have to nurture it before you take it to a vote but it seems to me the legitimacy here and the final attention is that accountability is worth consideration and i would urge you, glad to see you are looking for the International Tribunal and i think you need one. Just dont know how youd even get to remove the challenges when youre using a one country legal system for an International Tribunal and to me as an attorney that seems like its problematic for the type of attention youre trying to get an international legitimacy. Barer legal questions and i want to stress your two prior questions about it. They are questions about whether any tribunal created under the General Assembly or within the ukrainian system could be in it and just a first impression. The assumption is we would not have custody over president putin are other members of the troika unless they were no longer in a position which case either International Body would be free to insert jurisdiction he could dissipate when a person is no longer that position. On the partiality question the pasta that is the International Community needs to step up and invest in this process within ukrainian courts and that ensures it does not appear to be some version but is scrupulously fair and every defendant is entitled to fold to process protectionss and based on the merits of the conviction are brought to justice. They are the same problems of Getting International cooperation for International Tribunal under ukrainians as he would under thee General Assembly. Thank you mr. Chairman. Madam ambassador. In april of last year there were images of corpses littering the streets and they made the entire world realized that put in school is not just territorial conquest in ukraine. Brutal oppression of the ukrainian people in the nightmare that began continues to stay in ukraine and thats why this hearing is so important they be training people deserve justice and i want to thank you madam ambassador for your efforts and helping to get the ukrainian people that justice. We are talking about one of the legal and jurisdictional aspects of howow to bring putin to juste and i want to make clear that in the shortterm the biggest single thing we can do to make sure ukraine and the ukrainian people get justice is to make sure ukraine wins input loses. That have to happen. That is where if you think about what the Biden Administration has been doing and slow to respond with the types of wiweapons they need and the hims rocket racket in the Patriot Missile systems abram tanks and now at 15 it seems like they are a step behind almost as if they are trying to do the right thing after exhausting all other possibilities but in this case thise erratic behaviors cost in ukraine the opportunity to achieve the victory and costing ukrainian slides. The question is to do with the reduction of senator risch mentioned about ukrainian children. Accordinged to the ukrainian database russia has forcibly transferred over 19,000 children to itsld territory however those numbers are likely much higher but some children have been taken from occupied areas when their parents were asked to sign a release without being told the children to be taken away and not coming back. Others including those parents killed by Russian Forces have been forcefully adopted in russia. Yale universitys humanitarian research lab according to immigration camps children areio indoctrinated into russian history and propaganda of language and culture. The monstrous objections are part of thee general genocide that we talked about are readyo to raise ukraines advantage by feeling their future. They be condemned as a war crime by the International Community and issued an arrest warrant in march for Vladimir Putin and his commissioner. So even though we have focused our information on this our attention on the Ukrainian Government ngos atat the kids the numbers around 400 out of a orpotential 19,000 or more. What more can be done to assist parents and as the father three children myself this is the most heartwrenching thing to have your children taken away from you and never seeing them again. Its a feature of this war and i agree with you. Its terrifying to imagine whatw those children are experiencing in the anguish that their parents must feel and i know their multiple efforts. Some are in accountability pairs alsoit humanitarian work being done to get those children back and create a a list of them so e know when they were last seen and where they may have gone in trying to utilize open source techniques to identify photographs for example that the russians are i plotting out as they are subjected to reeducation to forget their own culture. Theres much that can be done here. I was quite happy to see the ipc move forward on their first set of charges in the Geneva Convention and it will be good to see if they are additional charges coming for to share your concern and something we should beth working on a cross government. Is there enough Legal Support was for these families . Tothere are pitted been ukraine and met with the team is focused on the survivors and they are working very hard toam get them what they need in order to find where their children are and to get them back. Many times a requires parents traveling to russia to physically bring their children back and they are doing that. What about targeting war crimes and prosecution all that books are redoing it enough there to target people to facilitate . What is remarkable about this crime is at the two key defense have essentially admitted to it and have bragged about it and praise teach other for what they claim to be doing when we in d fact no theres no humanitarian grounds to be doing it especially when its russia itself rating the dire circumstances that put children at risk in the first place. Pdl study you mentioned funded by the state department, they are they are looking through a whole seriesrt of open Source Information including many of these photographs and trying to use facial Recognition Software to identify individuals for this coin base. Chairman i have one more question. Last week what is the state department doing with regardrd o belarus and this crime been belarus no question is quite complicit in russias where progression in ukraine and its important to focus when you think about this tribunal belarus and belarusians individual are subject to prosecution under the tribunal and we tend to focus on russia but to the extent that they are complicit in why the grounds of committing the crime of aggression is launching watching active aggression against the third a base. Thank you very much. Senator strahan. Stay by the fairmont discussion about the justice for the victims of war crimes act and i was proud to be a cosponsor of that. As the chairman and others have mentioned there. Obstacles to fully implementing the legislation but can you talk about dod . The understand that National Security council has been an obstacle. Can you talk about how you were working to administer this legislation and are there other barriers that you have encountered that this committee could be helpful with or the congress could be helpful with . Thank you. We do proceed on the basis of interagency consensus so we are working hard to achieve that consensus. Conversations remain ongoing and we are gratefull for the new legislation. They are happy with the prosecutorial war crimes ability team and a senior prosecutor to be the counselor focusing on those cases it may have the u. S. Nexus of swelling contributing to what her friends and allies are doing in europe. Are you discussing the idea of restitution reconstruction and i noticed one of the assets forfeitures those dollars were put towards ukrainian reconstruction. Are you discussing how that will and can you give us insight into that . In fact we haveus had the fit circumstance that was able to be liquidated which was exciting to see. Theres if theres an effort to rebuild and reconstruct ukraine. The ukrainians have put forward a proposal for a register of damages has been received while received. The summit has blessed this project. It will be based in the hague and the idea that individual entities groups and business can register their experience at the hands of russian perpetrators and when they are a pool of assetsts made available to assit those individuals to compensate them for the harm tangible and psychological harm. The idea is to build eventually some sort of commission to adjudicate those claims of individuals get back on theiriv feet. I think that would really be helpful and if theres anything we can do to support that please the dough. You will also talk about the commission on aggression that could be formed. One ofme the other bad commentaries on so many complex is the Sexual Assault andhe rape element that is so much a part of crimes and particularly war crimes and obviously we have seen a number of reports with respect to the war in ukraine. One suggestion that has been made to me that id liken to get your analysis above is the idea of setting up a separate commission that dealsof only wih sex crimes. Do you have any thoughts about whether that might be helpful and if that would set up a process that would not be helpful because thats been such a focus of so many complex and that would help to shine a light on our ability to address those kinds of crimes. Thank you senator shaheen. We know that these crimes are historically underreported and under prosecuted for reasons that well will understand tacluding the stigma associated with this in families and communities and we need to work to rectify that but one of the main goals of the atrocity Advisory Group that i mentioned that we are fighting and supporting in the uk and the eu is to bring more of a the survivors centered approach to the prosecution in ukraine and the prosecutor general is often the first to admit this is not the way of done things. They were asked tos give testimony and then they were going their way. I think hes generally devoted to changing that and thinking of the war crimes movement as being a pilot in a way to stem into his areas of prosecution. We have a number of experts that have been deployed to the Advisory Group that have experience in this way to teach, informed investigations and prosecution. Whether we need a whole separate body and when you think about it obviously i want to shed light on these crimes because they are sorr underreported. I think its important to acknowledge that they exist and we empower survivors to come forward. I do know the prosecutor general and the National Criminal court is focused on this and they are doingrt a way in a way tht certainly appreciated but its almost always dependent on who the individual prosecutors in the makeup of the itc at the time. One of the advantages to codifying this kind of an effort would be that would make it a focus on the future. Tonight i agree. Thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman. Say thank you chairman menendez and Ranking Member risch are leading this important hearing and for your joint and clearly shared passion about this. As you mentioned chairman earlier you and i in a Bipartisan Group of senatorsup went to the hague and met with the prosecutor of the icc in manyer steamier senior staff had long conversations about it and act promptly and effectively in a bipartisan way and admitted the underlying extension 200 think its a psa for many years for the u. S. Department and the u. S. Government has resisted cooperation and support in engaging with the icc because of the concern for potential u. S. Servicemembers to some point be hauled from the court. We acted to amend that statute specifically in the case of ukrainee in reliance on the circumstances. Y like many of my colleagues i am outraged at russias conduct in ukraine during this war. I believe there has beenns Something Like 80,000 documented atrocities and crimes against humanity. Youve gone through them and our colleagues have gone through them and im grateful to all the International Partners of the eu and the icc. Im struck by two quotes from earlier in this hearing you in response to a line of questioning said its hard to imagine a standing on the sidelines. You mr. Chairman said the department of defense doesnt get to choose which laws it obeys to help me understand what the challenge is here and getting our governments to cooperate with the icc review put it well. They have never faced a challenge like this. Russia can be counted on not just in the case of the brazilian student but to infiltrate their systems and to attack attack witnesses in under par in to successfully prosecute, we have a wide range of important resources we can provide intelligence documentation the national supporting operational advice partnerships in terms of protecting witnesses. We not fully partner p with the icc . Thank you. We have had a longstanding objection to the icc proceeding against u. S. Personnel. You guys might work in all of my interactions with the court could ion have this might i think that fear is if we in this matter assist with the prosecutionr that involves another nonparty state does not ratified in the icc treaty that we would somehow erode our ability to protect their own servicemembers because we are also similarly situated the fact that we are nonparty state. The rally is that argument has no purchase before the icc and all elements of the court have shown that. In the burma and georgia and ukraine matter and the republic of congo matter where rawanda was in its sights at some point. It has no protective power before the court. What has protective power i think his engagement keeping lines of communication open and not committing atrocities. If they are credible allegations against a u. S. Servicemember we can say we are handlingab s it ourselves and we deserve the full panoply of due process protections under the code of the military justice. I think that we can help in this matter and also maintained the protections we have and the amendments are surgical and carefully crafted and leave a number of protections a in place that have been untouched. The claims act was for some time viewed as exactly the statute enabling prosecution or actions, claims for crimes against humanitys. So why not legislatively strengthened that and what i mean as is a platform for action for congress. There is grounds to amend it and revisit. As you mentioned the Supreme Court has narrowed considerably with the doctrine of territoriality so i can imagine very discrete amendments that would open it back up to individuals who have access to u. S. Courts being able to dance claims against individuals or entities so long as the 14th amendment and due process is still under their jurisdiction. What else can we and should be deep be doing to strengthen ukraines ability to investigate and hold accountable perpetrators of war crimes. I think theres more that the department of justice could could do. They have the resources in terms of their expert personnel to work sidebyside. I know the attorney general is keen to do that and has developed a close relationship. While im working through some of the academic entities and experts who have been drawn from the world tribunal to have a lot of expertise in health. That was kind of funny that i have that are either now can help with the department of s justice and that would be another way we could continue to and assist the general for the momentous task he has ahead of him. Thank you forr your work in syria and thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman. Welcome and ambassador good to be with you. The last one senator russ and i introduced the ukraine policy rights act. This would among other things establish a process for congress to nominate individuals for human right sanctions. Throughhr this legislation is there hope and firm belief that we can ensure the u. S. Has the authorityel to respond to the russian governments atrocities and continue to uphold their commitment to stand with ukrainians had to fight for democracy as well as their own tyhumanity. Can you describe describe our governments current process for selecting those on the ground perpetrators and senior officials for Human Rights Violations and tell me to what extent of the process is working or not working . Thank you senator for that question. We have a sanctions coordinator within the United States and its helpful working with treasury and commerce to to coordinate a whole range of sanctions that do exist. I know we have deployed them in the russia context where individuals have been subject to travel bans under 7031c envy of the dozens of of individuals who have been sent subjected to so the key is to have designation packages. We need to know the individuals named but we also want to offer biometrics to createfr assets if they have them. Its not enough to say its a grainy photograph. Subdued and bush and do we want a sanctioned . To the extent that we continue to let that information be available the ukrainians are Civil Society actors to get my office is funding a number of organizations that want to feed into this. At this legislation were to pass and the congress were empowered to dominate individuals were given right sanctions how would the interaction between your office and the sanctions coordinator have to change. I dont know that way. I apologize i havent seen the draft text. We work closely with them. We are often in the role if we come across things that arent appropriate for any situation well help them. We are encouraging them to make sure that our sanctions parallel with tapping around the world including the icc. We should sanction individuals were prosecuted by the icc. We came to be of assistance in that regard. We will follow up onis legislation and the feedback and i welcome that. We all agree that if people commit war crimes they need to be held criminally accountable and theres an open question as to how that can best be accomplished and how to assess the likelihood of accountability for russias atrocitiescc inne ukraine . Is it likely to be confined to those who were blocked off of the battlefield or is there a way that is broader in scope as we look god willing to do day in which the complex seizes . My hope is a various various pathways that justice that exist will be ready and prepared to move forward. Youve put your finger on the yearold challenge. There are individuals in creating custody. They also have the ability to proceed in a censure and we dont in our courts. If those cases in absentia are somewhat unsatisfying. So this is a long game in this work and in fact just today the lobby issued its final judgment to how the fda is after the war and likewise last week the final and warned that the final genocide bears was captured in africa. We have to think about this in terms of generations and not in terms of the next year. My goal is tor. Collect evidence strengthen the system that the foundation is laid for when we did get that individual who chooses to travel its tossup of russia whatever the circumstance we are ready and charges can be pressed and we can move forward. Futures anticipated myat next question because i wouldnt expect certainly cannot bank on the russian government however constituted once violence has ceased to cooperate and send their own nationalist to in a variety of carrots and sticks could come to bear. How should our bilateral diplomat change until russia were to comply with International Criminal justice efforts . Yes we are all hopeful for a political transformation rush in the hope is the russian people and others in a readership position recognized that factor. Militarily it standing on the International Stage and there it are an international pariah. They cant travel on many of them will be able to travel to hearings all sorts of limitations that take place on russian russian figures because of the decision to invade ukraine. We need to strengthen their relationship with moderates and reformers can stand ready to build a genuine movement within russia. Theres only so much one can do while remaining in power. Mthank you. Senator van hollen. Thank you mr. Chairman madam ambassador. Good afternoon. As you just said in response and i think you got to the court issued this is a long game but its essential that we send a message that we will pursue the long game and pursue the perpetrators of these other crimes until wee achieve justice and i think the example you gave of yugoslavia is an excellent one. We can essentially make determinations and findings of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide determinations but as you said unless we cand, find a way to gt essentially jurisdiction over these individuals we are able to follow through with the prosecution. Is that right . One of the Things Congress did recently was try to provide avenues for the administration to get jurisdiction including extradition. Myra question is have youve ben able to use any of those additional tools with respect to prosecuting these war crimes and do you have any plans in place to do so . Thank you. The doj isnt a better position to answer that question. Im grateful for that and im very grateful congress recently had aligned their statutes with allies in europe who have robust Prosecutorial Authority and a constellation of overlapping statues to do this work. These are transnational crimes. You may have witnessed located one country testifying in another country against anan individualt. We need to be coordinated and extradition is a key tool. Spirit are you aware of any examples where we the Justice Department is taking extradition were a third country is not agreeing . Im not. I can though. Ill point out little gap that does exist in the code that i havent mentioned that the doj cares deeply about the stability to seek the extradition of the. Because we have whats called presentt jurisdiction the defendant needs to be president knight States States for us to get that person and we cant seek their extradition if they are present and they are under crimes that require you have the presence of the person to press those charges so theres a bit of a catch22. If you were to do a surgical amendment to 182342 allow for president ial jurisdiction if we knew yes it is and had objections to torture abroad to torture or broadway could seek the extradition of those individuals. We look forward to working with you. Its an important but a quick fix. Let me followup. The chairman made the point which i agree with which is at the pass legislation instructing all agencies of u. S. Government to cooperate with icc and provide evidence that would support their prosecution of war crimes. The t Defense Department is clearly dragging their feet. My question to you is what is the impact of that . In other words what evidence might we be able to supply to the icc that we have not supplied because dod has not been cooperative. We generally dont discuss the types of information that gets shared but i think its safe to say that there is a range of very actual information that weve been able to collect that might belenf very helpful o Justice Department anywhere and we can share that with other entities and we sharee it with increase in individual states that might be prosecuting to the prosecutor general but we cant can share with the ipc. We dont have consensus on that. And the one agency does not consent to dod is that right . You heard the appropriations committee. Just a yes orof no. The Defense Department is not cooperating in that way . Yes. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you ambassador good to see you. I want to ask you about a lot of the focus has been on justice and accountability following at february 2022 invasion of ukraine by russia. This was an invasion that began in 20 fourteenths of you can talk about efforts to pursue accountability against russia for abuses in ukraine that began in 2014. We forget that that the war did begin in 2014 and while you didnt see the level of that yow see t today if we dont even hae access to the territories and as youve seen in bucha is the ukrainians take back their territories to thes task consequences of russian control. They are a number of efforts in the project that im funding we began to fund before 2020 with the smaller project that we have had to scale considerably in light of the explosion of atrocities being committed that there was a project in place in exploring how to bring cases for witnesses and evidence available to do that United Nations has had longstanding mission focused on ukraine collecting information from the beginning and that information can be shared with prosecutor for yearold authorities around the world. Talk about the challenges of dealing with abuses committed by the bogner group as an example of a a nonstate so the icc and probably set up with a u certain kind of target in mind and nonstate actor. Talk about the challenges that the present. Theres no question the bogner group is a malign force wherever it finds itself in Central African republican now we are seeing it in lidia and moving into ukraine. They are a nonstate actor. Most of the crimes that are prosecuted in our system or other courts make no distinction between state and nonstate actors. And i know thehe prosecutor is interested in looking at bogner and so many of the other countries wherehe he has stressd action and is investigating it. That extent we can be of assistance in that regard to isolate bogner around the world. I want to change topics and i take advantage of the great witness a but the that expertise and thats venezuela. I want to ask about it. Thereve been 7 Million People that are fled venezuela since 2015 rivaling the 8 million that are fled ukraine. I will reintroduce the effects of the venezuela act which would direct the end of two independent Factfinding Mission. The mission issued a detailed report last september assessing the venezuelan maduro regime have committed crimes against humanity including torture extradition of killings and violence. What is your assessment with the icc about the ongoing efforts in venezuela and what lessons can we draw from the Factfinding Mission about documenting crimes . This has been a longstanding issue fears and people deserve our full f attention. I take my title seriously. I am the ambassador for criminal justice so i try to get in the field to continue to push for justice there. The Factfinding Mission we support that strongly and they have done excellent work and their reports were quite telling in terms of documenting for crimes against humanity committed acrosstt venezuela whn it comes to protesters and mbopposition. Its become tools of repressiont rather than criminal justice mentioned by the Factfinding Mission. Theio prosecutor has been there and he tried sailing away to work w collaboratively with the maduro government to encourage them to do their own investigations here tend to show good faith in terms of routing out the perpetrators and i think he has reached the end of his rope in this regard and now for people to reopen an investigation to move forward in a more adversarial process. Is there a chance of some of the a other nations have resumed relations with the maduro government colombia and brazil . You could pressure the maduro government. I was certainly hope so. That exist because of a then unprecedented collective referral by the reach and the icc with the region saying we want to Enter National court engaging here and thats where we cant manage it ourselves. We need the National Court and also i would hope they followup on that commitment to justice and continue to put pressure on venezuela to cooperate with the work of the icc and the hard work internally. I would hope that they would do the same thing especially since columbia is on the frontline of the consequences of the disaster in venezuela and they should be reticent to call them out and encouraged the maduro government to cooperate with icc. They are on the forefront of Transitional Justice with their own system. I think they see the value. Thank you in mr. Terry appreciated. I share senator cains concerns in this regard. And i appreciate you pursuing it. Ambassador you have i preside over a lot of hearings and these are the worst hearings ive ever presided over. This is one of the best hearings and i w appreciate your clarity and your directness in terms of your answers to the questions and something thats refreshing and maybe you could hold a seminar at the state department about it. This hearing will remain open to the close of business on june the first of 2023. Thanks to the committee and this hearing is adjourned. 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