Transcripts For CSPAN2 PGA 20240705

A front row seat to democracy. Good morning everyone. We will come to order. And i want to thank the witnesses for attending today. I want to thank my colleague, senator johnson, for participating in the invitation to you, and the collaborative approach to this hearing and our inquiry. And to all of our staff for their hard work on the memorandum that we have distributed with documents which i will put into the record without objection. Todays hearing is about much more than the game of golf, it is about how brutal, reclusive regime can buy influence and even take over a cherished american institution. To cleanse its public image. It is a regime that has reportedly killed journalist, jailed and tortured dissidents, fostered the war in yemen and supported other terrorist activities, including the nine 9 11 attack on our nation. Today is about sports but also about hypocrisy, how fast sounds of money can induce individuals and institutions to betray their own values and supporters or perhaps reveal a lack of values from the beginning. It is about other sports institutions that could fall prey if they are leaders let it be, let it be all about the money. Perhaps this to state the obvious, sports are central to our culture and society. They have huge indications for our way life, our local economies and communities. Close to home and our image abroad. Athletes, like the pga tour, golf players are role models. They are ambassadors of our values, and that concern is today are vital to our national interest. To have them taken over by a repressive foreign regime certainly is a matter of National Security. We hope that todays hearing will help us uncover not only the reasons for the pga tour suddenly reversing its opposition to the liv golf takeover and what it means to golf, but also to understand what similar investments by repressive regimes or other countries with deep pockets could mean for our cost. For our National Security. And for the world. For two our National Security and for the world. For two years the most vehement opposition to the saudi governments taking over this sport of golf in america and the most vehement criticisms of saudi sports washing came from the pga tour leaders themselves. They enlisted fans, sponsors, the 9 11 family, members of Congress Like myself, some of those leaders sat across for me at cromwell, connecticut, and asked me to support them. And i did. All on the promise and commitment to maintaining the pga tour as an independent cherished iconic american institution. And jay mott hemp himself, he said in june, just a year before june 6th, i would ask any player that had left or any player that would ever consider leaving. Have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour, the players admirably and heroically stood by the pga tour and said, no. To tens of millions of dollars. Likewise, members of the 9 11 families were with us and stood by the pga tour. And others of us who did the same. And then suddenly on june 6th, everything changed. The sports world was shocked by the announcement that the pga tour was entering into an agreement to combine forces with the Saudi Arabian Public Investment fund, the saudi sovereign wealth fund, which owns liv golf. It is an instrument of the saudi government. And the deal was not to take over a team, but the entire sport. Not just an individual saudi investor, but the government. The government of saudi arabia. So it was no ordinary investment. The saudi Public Investment fund, node as pit, is closely aligned with the saudi government. And it is headed by who is a negotiator and party to this deal. So, understandably, there was a feeling of betrayal. It was among many of the individuals and groups that supported the pga tour, including from the players themselves. And we are here today because not only did it raise that feeling of betrayal, and jon rahm, familiar, to all of us said it best. The general feeling is that people feel betrayal from management. The future of other sports in the United States, what led the pga tour to change its position . Was it only the hope of ending litigation or was it also unspecified amount of saudi investment that would come of it . How much money did pif offer the pga tour . And what other sources of money were sought . Given these questions and their implications, not only for the future of professional sports but for foreign influence and global human rights, this subcommittee launched an inquiry into this deal. Ive already put into the record the memorandum that we circulated that incorporates the documents that have been produced about some of what weve learned. Clearly, although the agreement itself is seemingly on specific, vacuous and simply an agreement to agree, we know from it that the saudi government will have an equity dominance and ownership of this institution through its investment and we know that the pga tour surrendered once for the saudi investment of money, and there is no assurance in this agreement that it would not do so again. We have learned from the documents some facts that also indicate that the pga tour will be dominated in this agreement. We learned that, after rebuffing, the pif this early as january. The pga Tour Representative reached out to pif leader, after he was told that the saudis would double down on their investment, and quote. We learned that saudi arabias earliest vision for the tour included a teen golf tournament, culminating in saudi arabia. At least one highprofile pga event in saudi arabia and a global Gulf Investment Fund managed by the pif. We learned that one night, one night before the Framework Agreement between the pif and the pga tour was signed, the pif added a non disparagement clause that appears to prevent the pga tour from criticizing saudi arabia. And it applies to the witnesses that are before us, apparently today. We learned that governor al roman will not only become the chairman of the pga tours board, but he will sit on the executive committee of the new company that is to be formed where he will, and this direct quote, from a document we received, quote, provide pif with Strong Influence over the new company. And we learned that what is not in the agreement, which may be as important as what is explicitly there, very little is explicit, that there are potential side agreements and understandings. Only in the internal documents that were reviewed by this committee to be learned that pga tour officials prepared a signed agreement providing that liv ceo, greg norman, would be terminated upon execution of the final agreement. We dont know whether this agreement was executed, but there are other documents such as the talking points that are now in the record for to talk to the policy board that indicate the parties maintained this understanding about terminating norman after the agreement was announced. We still dont know whether there are other side agreements, or other understandings that may exist. Or what they might say. We dont know what assets the pga tour will place on the new entity, or how it will maintain its nonprofit status. Certainly, a profoundly important question. What assets it gained while it had nonprofit status, it may be transferred now to a for profit entity raising a serious questions it ought to concern this committee of congress. And especially since it has indicated that there will be an active commercial role for this new entity. We also dont know what will happen to players who may want to speak out against saudi arabias human rightsabuses. They apparently are bo what the deep pockets of the saudi government and other regimes could mean to the future of our country and the world. With that i will turn to the Ranking Member for his opening remarks. I want to welcome the witnesses and thank you for appearing voluntarily before our subcommittee. Let me say i love the game of golf, i enjoy playing it, i wish i was a lot better. I enjoy watching it. Golfers succeed or fail on their own. Every golfer can empathize with a probe hole thing on that holding onto a oneshot lead to sink a crucial part. Sympathized with the failed attempts. The game of golf has developed a handicap system that has allowed golfers like me, at a lower skill level, to enjoy competing with one another. Its the competition of the highest level that brings us here today. Every professional sport faces the exact same challenges. How you structure and maintain competition to attract large audiences and maximize the revenue base . How you compensate all the athletes do you compensate all the athletes . Many of the rules and practices these leagues engage in may run afoul of the clayton antitrust laws. In researching the legislative history of sports in america, i must agree with the assertion of a 1987 university of ime law review article miami law review article that says the governing relationship between professional Sports Leagues and the sherman act is confused and unsettled. A simple explanation for this confusion is that it is difficult to write a law that effectively addresses every situation and every reality. This hearing deals specifically with the reality, the pga tour faced when saudi arabia decided to get involved and invest in professional golf. According to its 2021 990 tax form, the pga tour has net assets worth 1. 25 billion. Saudi arabias Public Investment fund is estimated to be worth 600 million and 700 billion, 500 billion dollars more than the pga tour. Until the liv golf, multiple golf tournaments competed in a commercial marketplace, dictated by the commercial market loss and profit. Competing for top players with little, if any regard or expectation of a direct financial return. From a commercial standpoint it is not a fair fight. The pga tour viewed that liv as an existential threat. I have the deepest sympathy for the families of 9 11 and some other efforts of obtaining information being withheld by the saudi governments. I was approached by members of 9 11 families at the hall today, they gave me a document that summarizes the fbis investigation of saudi involvement in 9 11. Like so many documents i received that is heavily redacted. The fbi, the saudi government is not being transformed transparent with the 9 11 families. I want to support the 9 11 families in obtaining transparency and the truth. I would like to enter this document into the record so people can view for themselves the lack of transparency in the government and the saudi government. I may just say i spoke to the 9 11 families about this resistance by our own government, the fbi and other agencies, to provide the fact that are necessary for them simple justice i will join you in a bipartisan effort. I hope that is a bipartisan resort of this hearing. Sports washing is an issue but no amount of money can wash the stain of the brutal fascination and other humans rights abuses. It would be grossly unfair to expect pga tour to bear the burden of Holding Saudi accountable. Anyone who drives a car or uses oilbased products to sell fuels of coppers to the saudi Public Investment fund, for investment is a good thing. I would rather have them reinvest their oil wealth in china than in the u. S. Than china. If the kingdom is involved in the other sports and offers more rights to women wouldnt that be a good thing . Although i believe there are many more pressing issues congress and the subcommittee should be focused on. Like Many Americans i have interest in how this is resolved. Congress does have legitimate roles to play in settling the confusion in the law of governing professional sports. That said, i did not sign the us for information for the memo issued by the majority. Because the parties are in the midst of what should be a private negotiation. There is no deal to review increased investigations conducted by this subcommittee involve some member of wrong some wrongdoing. Theres nothing wrong with the pga tour negotiating a survival. Negotiations are delicate. Mostly private i fear Congress Getting involved in this stage could have negative consequences. I hope this can be constructive and address questions that the public has regarding golf in how to preserve the competition at the highest levels of the game. Although the various parties in this dispute bring different perspectives and objectives to it, my guess is they share a common love and respect for the game of golf, and want to see it succeed in the future. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I look forward your testimony. Thanks very much. Im going to introduce the witnesses. As is our custom, swear you in, and ask you to speak. We will have seven minute round questions, once your testimony is done. We welcome ron price, the chief operating officer at the pga tour. He has been leading the tours operations during the absence of the ceo. By the way, both of you, i hope will convey to the ceo for his continuing recovery. We are happy to learn he will be back later on this month. In the meantime you are representing the pga tour. It mr. Price has been responsible for the overall strategy to the pga tour including overseeing championship management Brand Communication golf course, property legal licensing and merchandising as well as culture , Board Governance and government relations. My understanding is that you join the tour in 1994. Jimmy done is referred to as a legendary dealmaker, served as a member of the pga tour policy board since january of this year. He is one of the chief architects of the pga tour deal that we are discussing today. Your name is repeated in many of the key documents, mr. Dunne. We are glad that you will enlighten us. Some of these questions. He is the vice chairman. He was one of the cofounders of Sandler Oneill and partners lp and independent investment, banking firm, over the past 2. 5 decades he has advised on some of the financial industrys largest acquisition transactions. We welcome you and look forward your testimony. Now, if you would please rise. Do you affirm that the testimony youre about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god . I do. If you could proceed. Thank you. Chairman blumenthal, Ranking Member johnson and members of the sub midi, thank you for the opportunity russia subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. For the opportunity to testify. When the saudi funded liv golf tour launched its series in 2022, the two are facing unprecedented attack in defending our organization and its regulations. Regulations that each member agrees to at the start of every season. We were forced to suspend players. Both players made the choice to play for liv golf. They could play for the new league but they cannot come back and forth to prewrite free right off the working platform of the collective membership left behind. In august 2022, we were sued in an effort to invalidate our regulations. This created a fracture in golf unlike anything our support had experienced in decades and created a vision in are closely knit organization. We believe we have done everything we could possibly do to defend what we stand for, including spending tens of millions of dollars to defend litigation, instigated by liv golf. Thats significant funds diverted away from our core mission to benefit our layers a players and charity. As part of the litigation, we were successful in securing a court ruling that the Public Investment fund was not protected under sovereign immunity. With respect to the discovery, and potentially liability, that something which had never been done before in the u. S. Meanwhile, we have seen contended strength of the tour, thanks to the loyalty, talent and performance of the remarkable players, we are proud to call members of the pga tour. However, it was very clear to us, and to all who love the pga tour, and the game of golf as a whole that the dispute was undermining both of our sport the growth of our sport and threatening the survival of the pga tour. It was a sustainable unsustainable. Our players, our fans, our partners, our employees, our charities, and the communities we support would lose in the long run. Instead of losing control of the pga tour, we pursued a piece that will not only end the divisive litigation battles, but would also maintain the pga tour structure, mission, and longstanding support for charity. Negotiations toward a definitive agreement are underway, the Framework Agreement includes important safeguards that ensures the two were will operate fundamentally as it does today. The two were will control is on tour will control its operations, the board of the new pga subsidiary, and will be the governing body for competitive golf in connection with any combined golf operations. The agreement provides clear, explicit, and permanent safeguards, that ensure the tour would lead the decisions that shape our future, and that we will help control over our operations, strategy and continuity of our mission. I understand the need for additional clarity, around how and why the deal came together. I welcome the opportunity to shed light on the predicament we found ourselves in. One which we did not seek. One that we could not sustain indefinitely, but one for which we found a workable productive solution that benefits all who love the game of golf and the pga tour. Thank you. I will be happy to answer your questions. Thank you. Mr. Dunne. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member johnson, members of the subcommittee. My name is jimmy dunne. Since january, i have served as an independent director on the pga tour policy board. To hold that position it is a real privilege fo rme. I joined the board at a time of great concern for those who love golf. Some players left the pga tour to join liv golf, others were under pressure to do the same. The pga tour and liv were facing each other in litigation. There is division attention. You can feel it spreading to fans and sponsors. My concern is that it all continued, expensive legal fights, every day, wondering which player was going to leave next. A fan base tired of hearing that. Sponsors nervous. Golf, as we know it would be damaged forever. As Board Members, we have a responsibility to protect the game. As the situation appeared to me, the tour had to move towards a solution of the differences that were causing way too much disruption. And we had to do it in a way that preserve the standards, tradition, and authority of the tour. For that to happen, we need to act from a position of strength. We found ourselves in that position in spring of this year. By april, major Court Rulings had set back liv in his litigation on both the tour and europes world tour. It was the right moment to reach out, not only because of those legal victories but also because of the sign will solid financial condition. We knew a longterm fight would be harmful to the players, fans, sponsors and charities. We wanted to begin the negotiation while we were in a strong position, this would allow us to focus on uniting the game or walk away if that objective was not being served. At the direction of the pga tour commission, i contacted livs majority owner and governor of the Investment Fund in saudi arabia. In person meetings followed and these meetings resulted in a Framework Agreement of may 30. As members of this sub video, some agreements are just mutual promises that continue to be negotiated. This describes the framework. The only deal reached in the framework is that the lawsuits among the parties have been settled. Everything else is aspirational. The elements are therefore final agreement that can serve the interest of the players, fans, sponsors and charities and unite the game of golf. See since the june 6 announcement, the tour and the advisors have taken the lead in negotiating final agreements. What i can tell you is the tour will continue to manage the game, retaining majority governing control, majority economic control. The tour will appoint a majority of the board of directors. The framework would not be possible without the clear understanding that the two were will retain full decisionmaking authority. Of course, we expect many questions about who were dealing with. The reality is, because some men from saudi arabia were part of the nightmare of september 11, suspicion has lingered about the complicity of others. For my part, i remember the 66 friends and colleagues at my firm who died that morning, along with others when the towers went down. I think about them all the time. I think about the families, i think about the grief that never ends. If any person has the remotest connection to an attack on our country and the murder of my friends, i am the last guy that would be sitting at a table with. If this agreement ultimately succeeds, i have nothing to gain, except a sense of pride that we helped unite the game we love. Im not in line for a job, a fee, or compensation of any kind. My concern here is to put this divisive period behind us. And for the sake of the players, fans, sponsors and charity, unite the game of golf once again. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thinks mr. Dunne. I will begin the questions. Well have senate seven minute rounds as they appear. Both of you are here speaking on behalf of the pga tour, correct . Correct. Mr. Price, you were winning this litigation, correct . Senator, we won some battles with the litigation was far from over. As mr. Dunne had said, you were on top, you were winning. In fact affect, you made the judgment that the cost of proceeding was too high, and the ultimate agreement involved not only settling this litigation, but also a saudi investment in a new one to be created. We faced the choice. One option was to continue the very expensive disruptive and divisive litigation. We faced a real threat that liv golf, which is 100 financed by the kingdom of saudi arabia would become the leader of professional golf. You decided to take the financing and investment, from saudi arabia, for this new entity that would incorporate the pga tour, correct . We have not taken any funding. All we have done is settle the litigation and enter into a Framework Agreement in which the pga tour will be the leader of professional golf. There is an understanding that tif will contribute an investment into the pga tour. They will not be contributing to the pga tour. It will be a pga tour controlled subsidiary. Any funding what is the amount of the saudi investment that will be made . That has not been determined. Has there been a discussion . There has been discussions. It would be a significant amount. What are the amounts . North of one billion. Are there possibilities that additional amounts would be contributed . That is in the complete control of the pga tour. Its a pga tour subsidiary. The board is controlled by the pga tour. They have absolute control over how much funding they have now and in the future. Instead of expending accepting this amount of money, call it investment, financing, from the saudi sovereign wealth fund, did you explore other sources of potential investment . We considered that, senator. Had we gone down that path, fighting the very expensive and disrupt the litigation disruptive litigation. You would have prevailed. That was far from a certainty. Liv golf would have continued to recruit our players and put our tour at jeopardy. They could have become the leader of professional golf and operated for the benefit of the kingdom of saudi arabia. What other sources did you explore . We did not have specific conversations with any outside firm, but we talked about it, as potential and what those terms may be. What conversations among yourself did you have as to the alternative sources of funding . We talked about it at ward meetings, similar to dashboard meetings, similar to what we have ward meetings, similar to what we have set up. Because we would be litigation and still be fighting the Public Investment fund which has 700 billion assets. In the talking once that you prepared for the ceo caprice briefly policy board brief the policy board you indicated that to full make a Financial Investment to become a premier sponsor of the pga tour and other international tours. Tif also is committed to significant financials or towards the pga tour that positively impact the game on a global basis. One of the talking points is greg norman will be reassigned to an advisory role determined by tif, when the pga tour becomes the manager of the liv toward. Mr. Dunne has said that the agreement does not talk about money. There was an understanding about tif investing in the new entity. You may have another name now. That investment, you told us will be more than 1 billion, correct . There has been no agreement reached. There have been discussions in that nature. I would add that one of the things he mentioned about if we reach an agreement that would be important to us, is the Public Investment fund providing funding to support social causes that would provide additional access to the game. Are you bound by the nondisparate clause, which is stated in the agreement . Not in this forum. Not in this forum, but generally . When youre negotiating a business agreement, it is common to have that clause. It may be common, but you are bound by it. Mr. Dunne, as a member of the policy board, you are bound by it as well, correct . Senator, im sitting before the United States senators. You can ask me what you want, i will answer truthfully. Im not questioning that you will. Give us what you believe is the truest to fact. But, my understanding of this clause, you are right mr. Price, it is very common to business agreement, is that it will be binding on you, on other members of the policy board, potentially on the athletes. Indeed the liv requirements for their players. They have a similar bar to any of them saying anything negative about any relevant person, including members of the pif governing apparatus. So, im going to end my questioning now. For this round. But, i would like to have a commitment from both of you that the final agreement will not prevent players or pga tour executives from commenting on or criticizing actions of the kingdom of saudi arabia. Will you make that commitment . It will be an objective we would seek. I would add that the Framework Agreement does not prevent our players from speaking their mind on any matters. It does it now, but you cannot commit that the final agreement will not require them to avoid any such disparaging statement . We do not anticipate having that. Will you commit that it will not happen and you will not agree. I would not recommend it to the policy board for approval. Mr. Dunne . Im not doing the negotiation, but as ron said, he would not recommend it. I will inform the entire board of your excellent point. Ill guarantee you, the board will vote on it. I dont have the power to decide that. But we hear you, we understand, and i will advocate for it. If we get to agreement, that disparagement, that is basically to the term of the agreement. So, you generally dont want to be saying bad things about each other when youre negotiating. But it has a shortterm life on it. I will turn to this line of questioning. I would like to lay out the reality that you are faced with. First of all, you had been would not have been seeking large additional funding or large funding had it not been for the pif entering the scene . Youre always seeking resources, but, it is only because of what the kingdom did, correct . That is correct. Its only because of that that we are sitting here today. Youre dealing with an entity that is five times larger than your. Who is roger devlin . I have never met a roger devlin. He emailed me. He is a member in england. He works in an. Investment banking capacityhe emailed me a couple of times about possible discussions about getting together. I believe he helped saudi arabia invest in a soccer team. I believe his partner is one of the coinvestors with yasser. If you had a relationship with saudi. He does. He reached out in january saying the time may be right to sit down and try to repair the breach. You rebuffed him. You are not ready for it then. Is that a fair statement . If i may answer, senator, my attitude was all of the people, other than the guy with the money, we should not talk to. We should just get to the spiritual leader and because everything that was happening did not make any sense to me. So, i did not want to waste any time talking to anybody. My advice to the commissioner was, dont waste any time talking to anybody other than the guy with the money. Who is the guy with the money . The governor. Ok. On april 14, 2023, mr. Devlin emailed you and the final line in his email states, i fear the saudis will double down on their investment and golf will be split asunder in perpetuity. I read that. I recognized what reality pj was facing. Tga was facing. Does that simplify a reason why you decided to reach out to the saudis . Thank you, senator. They did not have to double down to greet the problem we already had. If they kept doing what they were doing it would have been significant enough. The pga tour is not that big in terms of players. If they take five players a year, in five years, they can got us. The pga was facing an eccentric role an existential threat because of pif and liv. Now, you agreed to reach out to yasser. What did you make of the men . What was his motivation . I realize you cannot get inside his head, but can you describe for us, why where the saudis doing this . Why was yasser doing this . Obviously, im not inside his head, but my perception, as i said, i told the commissioner that you should send someone only to speak to him. In april, he chose to reach out to him. I went out to meet him. Unlike everyone else that is involved with liv, they are very acrimonious towards the pga tour, he said he respected the tour, how they did things. I was surprised by that. He did not have the attitude that frankly a lot of the management people had. So, i thought, it might make sense to put the man with the money and are commissioner together for another meeting. Describe the challenge you have as a pga. Top players, compensating everybody, and attracting top players to come to tournaments, which is what you need to get the tv deals, the viewership, the sponsorship. Talk about the challenge in general of managing pga tour golf. Either one of you. We represent all the players. So, our process, we have to go through is allocating resources, that players earn through competition. We are performancebased, appear we are performancebased. We try to balance the allocation of resources among our top layers and the ones performing at a top level on a regular basis while maintaining earnings opportunities for all of our players. The players who are performing well, our top players, those are the ones the fans are interested in. Fans tune in to watch. They drive our primary revenue streams. Media and sponsorship. To the extent that liv golf has been successful in taking away some of our top players, through the irrational Business Model, that puts pressure on our ability to maintain our primary revenue sources. If they continue to do that, we would have faced an existential threat. Mr. Dunne, you have done a lot of deals. Ive done a lot of negotiations myself but ive never had to do them in public. I want to emphasize for the committee, you dont have a deal. You ended the litigation, which took a big liability off your late plate. Ive been involved enough litigation that you never know the results. It is always a big risk. Talk about how difficult it is for the pga to have all of this information exposed. Negotiations are rejected. Even the idea being made public does not help. Describe how difficult it will be to conclude the deal. It makes it very complicated. I agree, you generally dont negotiate a deal in public. But, we are committed to try to move from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement. We believe that would allow us to continue our leadership and professional in professional golf and tournaments to be operated in accordance with our mission, and our standards for our players and charity. We think that is important. Each proceedings make that more difficult. Mr. Price, we spoke over the phone, i read the framework, which immediately got leaked. It struck me as, this is kind of a winwin situation for the artese involved parties involved. Saudi got a seat at the table in terms of golf. Pga retained its control over the game, the competition. Mr. Dunne, can you speak to this . In any negotiation, what you want at the end is a winwin for everyone, seek and move forward successfully as opposed to destructive behavior. Senator, that is the goal. I really understand senators concern about not having them take over. That is the last thing we want. I think to this agreement, we can get a winwin situation. My fear is if we dont get to an agreement, they were already putting billions of dollars into golf. They have a Management Team wanting to destroy the tour. Even though you can say take five or six players a year, they have an unlimited horizon and an unlimited amount of money. It is not like the product is better, its just that there is a lot more money that will make people move. I am concerned with exactly what the senator is worried about. Im more concerned that if we do nothing they will end up there. They can do it. Its that big. Its only a couple hundred players. I sympathize with position youre both in the position youre both in. I will try to be quick, both for respect of other members, but also the presenting officer ship in a few minutes. I cant help but observe that there is a lot of conversation about what this means from the pga leaderships perspective. This could potentially what this could potentially mean for a pif perspective. I dont hear a lot of conversation about the players. The players performance drives the game, the fan base, its the players performance that drives the revenue. I want to take a moment to focus on the players. They need to do right by them for this agreement to be concluded. Prior to the framework announced, the pga tours, officials were critical of it. And those who chose to join liv. In fact, i understand that the pga tours suspended 24 players who participated in liv events, and made them ineligible to participate in pga tournaments. Pga officials turned around and did the same thing, they criticized the players for, leaving those players who chose to remain loyal to the pga, and forgo the significant financial benefits of joining liv, understandably, wondering what was the point of remaining loyal to pga . So, mr. Dunne, can you tell me how players who remain loyal to the pga be made whole . Will they be eligible for some form of damages . Its not just the income that was a real pain, but the reputation has taken a hit. Can you explain to me how players will be made good for this agreement, should i go through . I will answer it. But ron is doing the negotiation. Thank you for your question, senator. Nothing will happen without the players for support full support. We have five play representatives on the policy board. I cant imagine the circumstance where i will not be voting with the majority of them. So, i have to emphasize, we negotiated the settlement of the lawsuit in complete secrecy, because of the fear that a lot of people make a lot of money in these lawsuits, specially the other side as lawyers. To the degree that got out, we would never have button gotten to fruition. It is a twostage negotiation. The first part is lawsuits settled, the tour has to be in charge, and we will agree to talk. Now we are talking with transparency. The players are going to have to get something that they appreciate for staying on the tour. I hear you. Time is limited. Let me also add in the dimension for the new players that were not eligible to compete in the pga, because there was a handful that left, what happens to them . After this merger, if it goes through . Senator, we have two taskforces in place. We are working with our player directors. The first taskforces evaluating ways in which we can recognize the players who remain loyal to the pga tour. We will not move forward with a definitive agreement unless we get that right and our player support that. For players who left the tour to play for liv, they were suspended. They will play for a pga tour controlled Sports League or golf league. They will have to go through our existing rules and regulations process to gain reentry. We will be watching the second, instead of asking additional questions, i will state a concern for the record, and will followup in a future conversation. The 2023 season liv said on its Television Broadcast technicians , while they switch to a nonunion production company, making the tech issues behind the golf production, making the few major sports who do not receive health or Retirement Benefits while providing coverage. My first questions were about the players. Please note i am interested about the treatments and fairness of all employees that make golf revenues, including but not limited to significant broadcast revenue. Not just as players, but in the broadcast, production, etc. Another area i will be following up on. Thank you. Senator paul. I have been a vocal critic of the saudis for years and led the effort to block billions in arms sales. The saudis have a relentless powder pattern of brutality within their consulate. For which they evaded punishment and their consistent disregard for human rights is wellknown. They have committed war crimes in yemen a war for which american taxpayers are being used resulting in thousands of civilian casualties. Nevertheless, i see no constitutional power that suggests congress should involve itself in golf. Ruthless actions. Nevertheless, i see no constitutional power that suggests congress should involve itself in golf. I have no doubt that some will argue that the tax code, or somewhere in the ever expense of commerce clause, is the power to regulate private agreements. I disagree. As an originalist, an originalist interpretation of the constitution would lead to a different conclusion. If we took the ninth amendment seriously, if we took the principles of liberty, of contract seriously, we would acknowledge that the constitution forts protections for such agreements. We have no business asking the pga about their negotiations, or what they might do, or what they might do. Its not the business of government. If members of the senate wanted to express their outrage over saudi arabia in a meaningful way, i gave them an opportunity to do so. In december of 2021, i proposed canceling 650 Million Dollar sale of 280 advanced air to air missiles and 596 missile launchers to saudi arabia. But there was no congressional hearing. We are here today talking about golf, but we did not have one congressional hearing over sending hundreds of millions of dollars of advanced weapons to saudi arabia. There was no expression of outrage. Instead, 67 senators voted against my proposal and voted to continue selling arms to saudi arabia. Its time that congress rediscovers the presumption of love. That our first recourse is to defend the rights of private factors, not to expand our fuel and defined powers to regulate everything we may personally dislike. As a member of this institution, i find no grounds for government to be involved in the game of golf. But are there legitimate questions . Could we have legitimate hearings on the things we should be discussing . Of course. Do the 9 11 victims have a legal obligation owed to them by the Saudi Arabian government . Its a real question. Should we be involved with selling arms to saudi arabia . Thats a real question. Should be debated . We should have folks on these things. Should we be involved in the war in yemen . No one in congress ever voted to go to war in yemen. Why the heck are we involved in that war . Furthermore, with regard to sports there is a valid discussion that should be going on. We should have a discussion about the antitrust involvement in sports. I think like most antitrust, its topsyturvy. Its flipped upside down. Its doing the wrong thing. Pga mentioned they have some rules. You joined the pga, you have to obey some rules to be part of the pga. If you dont, then they should have the right to exclude you. That is what associations are about. If you dont allow them to have rules. The court has totally screwed this up and congress is let them. The court ruled unanimously that the ncaa can invoke the rules. So they have completely screwed up college athletes. We used to be proud. Many of us watched loving amateur athletes that werent paid. Now, everybody who plays basketball in college will be driving a badly or a roles. I mean we will be seeing rap stars instead of basketball stars. This is crazy. You know why it happened . Because congress sat around and said, oh well, because of antitrust we cant let the ncaa do it. They went to the court in the court made the ruling, unfortunately a unanimous ruling, based on the laws. The laws have to change. Antitrust should not be involved with associations. He should be involved with the pga. It should not be involved with the ncaa. For the most part, antitrust in our country actually does the opposite of what is it it is intended to do. I will give you another example. As a physician, if five physicians get together and say we dont like luke ross paying us 80 and we want to get 100 per exam from some billion dollar company. Do you know what antitrust does . Antitrust suits five doctors and says you cant talk about this. Its ridiculous. Antitrust is actually protecting the big people versus the small people. Its a unique situation to talk about associations, particularly sports associations. Antitrust should let sports associations you dont have to join the pga, you dont have to join the sports association. You can be outside the ncaa, but the only way they have power was because they had the power of a large body and that was prestige being part of the ncaa. All of that is gone. Its the wild wild west and no one knows whats going to happen in college sports. No ones really happy about it. There are always professional sports. As someone who grew up in a sport that wasnt well read newman there remunerated, i understand allowing for contracts. Swimmers dont really have professional sports. At the same time, there was a way to properly do this that could have been done through the ncaa. But congress sat by and watched this. So there are legitimate concerns that we could look into as congress, but i dont think its a legitimate concern to break private individuals over contracts. To get involved and say, what are you going to do . You promised me the contract. Thats not the role of government. To tell people, to, you cant make a contract doing this. No, in a free country you make contracts. Its the business of the people making contracts and government should not be involved in this at all. So i see a certain illegitimacy and the whole proceedings today. Valid questions about saudi arabia that should be addressed, but we are not addressing the ballad things because we have to have a show trial basically on a private organization which i believe to be inappropriate. Thank you, Ranking Member paul. I will take the prerogative of the chair. To address at least the legal issue that you have raised, the constitutional question. Congresss authority to investigate here, and investigate golf, comes from article one section eight of the constitution. It gives us the power to lay and collect taxes, to regulate, therefore investigate, interstate commerce. I dont need to tell anyone in this room that golf is 100 billion dollar industry. Mr. Dunne himself has referred to the billions of dollars, 3. 6 billion i believe, that the pga tour has provided to charity. In my own state, the travelers championship brings 60 million to my state annually. And millions of dollars to local charities. The pga tour has a major impact on our economy, our way of life, our image in this country, our self image. The pga tour also pranks numerous benefits. From tax laws established by congress because it operates as a 501 c six. Not for profit entity. That provision of law has received little scrutiny. This inquiry may lead to close scrutiny of that. A study conducted in 2013 found this benefit was worth at least 200 million to the tour between 1993 and 2013. Congress has a long history of conducting oversight on matters relating to sports. I participated in a number of them involving the ncaa. Domestic violence in the nfl. Doping in major league baseball. Sexual assault in womens gymnastics. And anticompetitive practices in multiple sports. However, most importantly, as i said in my opening remarks, is ultimately not about golf in our investigation. We are here because we are concerned about the pga tours deal in terms of what it means for an authoritarian government to use its wealth to capture american institutions. To capture american institutions because we are in open society. Since ive joined senator paul and many of his amendments, advocacy and so forth involving the saudi government. And i appreciate much of what hes said about it, but i do think there is not only a legitimate role here, but in an imperative role for this committee. Senator scott . Point of inquiry. Point of inquiry. Yes, sir. Nothing in article one section eight of the constitution allows congress to intervene or involve itself in private contractual negotiations. If thats an inquiry, the answer is nothing explicitly authorizes intervention, but as you well know antitrust law, Consumer Protection on, any other laws involve protection of Public Interest and individual interest because the Public Interest demands it. Senator scott. Sure. I did not get to participate in the hall here, i have to go to another hearing. First of, thank you for being here. You are a great florida company. As you know, golf is really important to our economy. I cant imagine doing what you are doing, trying to negotiate a deal with cameras in front of you. My prior life was negotiating deals and doing deals, and you will never its very difficult to get a deal done that way. So it gets pretty frustrating for you guys, but could you talk a state like florida, or pick any other state, the importance of what golf is doing from a charity standpoint, from a building a global brand standpoint, and how important golf has become to this country . Senator scott, i will be happy to speak to that. Im happy to tell you that in addition to the pga tour being headquartered in florida, and our flagship Tournament Players Club sawgrass being there, we conduct ten tournaments in your state. Those tournaments generate over 30 million for charity annually. Cumulatively, our tournaments in the state of florida have generated over 800 million for charity. Our annual Economic Impact in florida is over 800 million. And importantly, those types of things are the things we are trying to pick up protect. Our ability to do that. If we can move from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement, in which the pga tour has absolute control, we will be able to continue to do that. It will be able to expand our Economic Impact in florida and across the nation, over 34 states now. We have an Economic Impact of over four billion. We think we can grow that significantly if we can reach a definitive agreement. Thank you, senator scott. I think golf is a force of good. I think if people get to know each other and play golf, i think it will solve a lot of problems. And i think to the degree that got as a global game, its incumbent on all of us to try to reach out and try to avoid things that maybe theres a possibility of, you meeting people with different faiths, different religions, different colors, that we can get to know better. And maybe they can we can have a better world. Golf is so accessible thank you. Thanks for being here. Good luck. Senator marshall. All right. Thank you, mister chairman, and welcome to our guest. When i think about life at this level, typically motivations are six, money or power. And as we look at this merger, im trying to figure out why. Where is the money . Where is the power . I will start with you, mr. Brice. Who is losing out on money and whos losing out on power in this deal . Thank you, senator. And so, you know, we had two options. One was being in a situation where we faced a threat of professional golf being taken over by liv golf, which is 100 funded by the Public Investment fund. The second option is for the pga tour to continue to lead professional golf, operated in accordance with specifically who . Who is going to be making less money and whos going to have less power because of this merger . Someone is losing out. I assume that is why we are here today. Senator, i would describe it as a situation of whether the pga tour stays in the same position that its in. Our players and our charities when. I dont know that anyone is losing. I think it benefits all there are no individuals who will be losing because of this financially . No, sir, because we are healing a fracture in professional golf. Mr. Dunne, same question for you i guess. Who is losing out . Whos the loser in this . Whos losing money . Whos losing power . Its a very good question, senator. The tour got is the winner. Because we continue to uphold this laws and traditions of the meritocracy. Professional golf is hard. You have to really work hard. It is fragile. You have a window. And your opinion, there are no private investors, i dont understand the complexity of your nonprofit organization, but theres no individuals will be losing money because of this. No individuals will be losing any power. The lawyers will lose money, absolutely. Because that is 100 million a year between everybody. Who has the most to gain from a power and financial who is gaining from this financially, and with power . Im, sorry youre asking me . Yes. I think the pga tour, definitely stays intact and becomes more powerful. And i hope that in a more constructive way, yeah sir gets a more productive role in the game of golf. I think the pga tour product is vastly superior. Thats my opinion. Mr. Price, who do you think gains most financially from this . Thank, you senator. I firmly believe it is the pga tours constituents. Our players, our fans, our sponsors and charity. They all clearly when under the Framework Agreement if we can reach it. Okay. Im sure this question has been asked earlier in another committee, but as the document provided us, a lot of this was done in the dark of the night so to speak. And i think some of your own members were surprised when they saw this deal put together. Mr. Dunne, what was your reaction . We are on the inside when all of this happened . I dont recall. Yes, senator. I had originally reached out. How did some of your friends and long term members react to this . Do you personally. Twofold. They were stunned, and the rollout was very misleading and inaccurate, which is everyones fault. There is no merger, there is no deal. There is simply an agreement to try to get to an agreement and settle the lawsuits. So you had an initial surge of anxiety, due to the in effective and inaccurate rollout. And now its settling into, there is nothing there yet. And we are having the reality of having to try to figure out something which is done in unbelievable transparency. There is an issue about sometimes too many cooks in the kitchen. In this case, everyone in the world is in the kitchen. So it is going to be difficult. But were going to work hard at it. Thank you for that answer. Today on the subcommittee, we are the investigation of the United States senate by Homeland Security. And we are trying to figure out why this issue was raised to this level. Ive got to tell you, no one back home has asked me, what do you think about this merger . At the same time, every day somebody asks me, why are we funding they ask me, why is the cdc now pushing a medication that is not safe to be used to help biological men make a milk like substance. And they ask me about the president s son, and they are concerned he is running a criminal enterprise. Know there are more questions than answers on cocaine. Those are the questions that people that ask me about. Why arent we investigating them. I dont see that any of this is prudent to the daily lives of american working families, who are paying twice as much for groceries and gasoline than they were two years ago. Many of you have said that the liv organization is the saudis way of sports washing. I want to deal into that. What was china doing when they host the olympics a few years ago . That was sports washing. Trying to wash their enslaved mightve hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of muslims. Trying to sports watch their purchase of millions of u. S. Farmland acres. Trying to sports wash their research into bio terrorism weapons. Why arent we investigating those issues . Why are we investigating the 90 of the counter offense that comes into this country, that is made in china. 90 of they steal 500 billion dollars of intellectual property every year. Those are the things we should be investigating and those are the things that kansas wants to know. I look forward to the day we have honest discussions in this committee and we are able to investigate our own out of control federal bureaucracy that impacts federal federal people. I have no further questions, mr. Chairman. But i want to wish the best of success to gary woodland. We are very proud of him. Thank you so much. Thank, you senator marshall. Thank you very, much mister chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I think i heard you testify to the chairman just a little bit ago, that it would take 1 Million Dollars or more from the saudis. Lets talk about some of the money that youve taken from communist china. Speaking of sports washing. What can you tell, meet mr. Price, about the pga tour china series . Thank you, senator. The pga tour china series was last operated in 2019. We have not operated it since then and have no plans to continue that series. You dont have a pga tour in china at all right now . We do not. What about the pga china two were. Lets look at the quote here from mr. Greg gillingham. Pga tour china is thrilled to be pardoning the shanghai sports on the pga tour series china. It is a worldclass organization with great experience of connecting the expectations of International Sports bodies with an understanding of the chinese market. This isnt happening . Im not sure, senator, what the date on that quote is. But we have not conducted the pga tour china series since 2019. But you just signed a 20year agreement to conduct a tour series in china, correct . It has not been conducted since 2019. Did you take 45 million in financing from the cow group to conduct a pga tour china . No sir, we did not. This is laurel lizzy. Pga tour chinas own operated by the pga tour and supported by the General Administration of sports of china and the china golf association. You are saying that this doesnt exist anymore . When was shut down . It hasnt operated since 2019. Did you return the money . We were not paid 45 million. I dont recall the specific details of the agreement, we received a sanction fee as i recall for the series of events. And if there was an operator within china that actually operated the events. So youre saying you dont know anything about this. No sir, i didnt say that. I said it hasnt been operated since 2019. And i dont recall the specifics of the agreement, but i can certainly get those to you. I know the specifics of the agreement. The Chinese Private equity firm finance the deal with 45 Million Dollar investments. The cow capital from has direct ties to the Chinese Communist party. Does that concern you . Concerns me. Senator, we are not or operating there anymore. And i believe i can get the details of that money went directly to an operator in china, not the pga tour. It was a deal between the pga tour and the Chinese Company to a series of events. He at least admit those events happen just a few years ago, right . They did happen for a series of years. Okay. Youre telling me youre not kind of any further business in china. Youve got no contract with any chinese entities, are not going to operate pga events in china. We have no plans to continue that series at this point in time. Youre not going to operate any other series. You know and you anything in china . Do i understand you correctly . We have no present plans to do, that sir. As the pga given your past business relationships with chinese entities, have you taken any stance on the uyghur concentration camps . Have you condemned the genocide there . We firmly support human rights and we are very concerned about what is happening there. But we leave those type matters to our u. S. Government. We certainly do not condone that type of activity. Wait a minute. You say leave matters United States government, im just asking you, do you will use speak out against the persecution and internment of uyghurs in china. Youve done business in china, youve conducted tour events in china, youve accepted money from chinese entities and some form of a partnership. Do you condemn the concentration camps that currently, as we sit here and speak our imprisoning uyghurs, religious minorities in that nation. Senator, were certainly do not condone or support that type of behavior, yes sir. Lets talk a little bit about your lobbying activity as it relates to the saudi deal. Public reports say that you paid lobbyists last year in just one quarter of the year, six figures or more as to Lobby Congress on the saudi proposals. What was that about . Senator, we went to members of congress as we face a threat to our existence. And so to make congress aware, what did this do . Senator, anything that congress could do within its power to help preserve american institution. This was before you agreed to take a billion dollars from the same people you are lawbreaking against a year ago. Senator, we faced a choice. One was to allow professional golf to be taken over and operated by the Public Investment fund and the kingdom of saudi arabia. The second was july the pga tour continued to lead in accordance with our mission and our values. For the benefit of our players. Let me come back to, if i, could this issue with a pga tour in china series. Why did you disclose your activities and your partnership with yao capital group. You are tax exempt organization, is that correct . So you have to file a form nine 90, is that correct . The form nine 90 contains a schedule f, is that correct . Yes. This schedule f requires you to disclose any activities conducted overseas, including unrelated trader business programs. Fundraising activities, investments, or maintaining offices for the purpose of conducting any activity. Senator, our intention is to fully comply with all the Disclosure Requirements on form nine 90. Were you attempting to paper over what you had done in china with these chinese entities . Absolutely not, senator. Thank, you mister chairman. Thank, you senator hawley. We are going to begin a second round of questions, if any of our colleagues arrive in the meantime. We are also, i think, scheduled to have a vote at 11 30. So at some point, we may have to take a brief recess. I want to come back to the disparagement issue, and the non disparagement agreement. And just so everybody understands, i get it that you dont feel you have a deal. But the litigation is gone, right . Yes sir. Its history. So whatever threat liv golf represents to you, it is no longer the cost of litigation. Tomorrow, you could go through an ipo and go to private equity. You could go to the players, if they wanted to own, as well as the members of the pga tour. You have a lot of options right now, correct . Senator, if we chose one of those options, we would still be facing a real threat that liv golf and the 700 billion dollar Investment Fund would continue to recruit our top players. But mr. Price, players have stood by you. Mr. Dunne himself, and i want to hold up this quote, which i think is so powerful. Talking about tiger woods, and the offer of 700 billion dollars. It takes a lot to say no to a bucket full of money. These players who stood by you are heroes. They deserve our thanks. And i am betting, because i never want to bet against america. That america will be on your side, thick or thin. Do you agree, mr. Done . Senator, its an excellent line of questioning, and thank you for raising it. We are contractually obligated to try to say if we can come to a deal that makes sense. We will meet all our obligations. As senator johnson and senator marjorie pointed out, when we have this massive transparency, it will make things difficult. If it ends up that we dont get to an agreement, which is possible, liv golf will still be there. They will still have a lot of money and we are going to have to do all the things were talking about. So, you still have to try to stand up against the saudi monarchy, against the hundreds of billions of dollars, and maybe a lot more, that the saudis will throw at you. And stand up for america because america is going to stand up for you. Did give your best efforts to reach an agreement. But there is something that stinks about this path that you are on right now. Because it is a surrender. And its all about the money. And thats the reason for the backlash. The Equity Ownership interest that the saudis will have, and thats a term from this agreement, gives them financial dominance. They control the purse strings. You might say your objective is to prevent cake non disparagement clause, but as i read the disparagement was in this agreement, each party agrees tent comments that it will not at any time directly or indirectly to make public or communicate to any person, or entity, or in any public forum, any defamatory or disparaging remarks, comments, or statements concerning the other party, their affiliates, and ultimately ultimate benefit owners, businesses, directors, employees, shareholders, officers, members, or advisers. Thats about as broad a non disparagement clause as i have ever seen. And i have been a law enforcer for most of my career as the u. S. Attorney in connecticut, as attorney general of my state for 20 years, as a private litigator. You know, in 2019, general manager daryl worley of the Houston Rockets pleaded support for hong kong. The nba stood by him, even though china imposed significant economic costs on the nba in an attempt to get the lead to suppress his speech. Will you commit today, mr. Price, that the pga tour will not punish any members criticize the kingdom of saudi arabia, or human rights, anywhere regardless of this new relationship . Can you commit that the final agreement, that the pga tour will not punish anyone for criticism of anyone in saudi arabia . Thank you, senator. I can tell you the Framework Agreement, under that Framework Agreement, our players are absolutely free to speak their mind without any well, you might want to check with governor because you are a Membership Organization. Your commitment is on behalf of that organization. The athletes are members of the. You dont have to be a legal scholar to know that there is potential liability. Senator, our position is that the players are free to speak their mind under that agreement. That is the way weve interpreted it. Will you commit to protect player expression . Go to court if necessary . Relitigate, so, anyone who tries to inhibit their speech . Senator, we are in Membership Organizations. We always take our player interests very seriously. And we will protect their interests. You know, the answer to that question should be yes. We will do it proudly. We will protect our players. We will protect our players proudly. And you asked me about the definitive agreement. We would not recommend any definitive agreement to the board for approval that had such a clause in it. Well, that is less than what i would like to see as a commitment here. Let me turn to some of the other questions that were raised. By the way, the agreement that has been put in the public realm is the result of your disclosing it. Correct . Yes, sir. Okay. So its not like we ferreted it out or infringed on the privacy of your negotiations. You disclosed voluntarily. It was disclosed to this committee and then we disclosed it senator, if i could just add one thing. Sure. Because there might not be a clear understanding with regard to control. We will not we do not have an agreement now, we only have a Framework Agreement. We will not move to a definitive agreement unless the pga tour is in complete control of the new entity, which will be a few g8 tour subsidiary controlled by the pga tour board. And operated for the benefit of all of our constituents. Our players, our fans, our sponsors and our charity. If that is not where we end up, we will not even recommend approval, much less the board would not approve that. I am not here to argue with you or to parse the terms of the agreement mr. Price, but the simple fact is that the saudi government is the dominant owner here. It has equity interest. It controls the purse strings. It has the money. And the money is the reason you surrendered and this agreement. And the money will be there Going Forward. A billion dollars is just the beginning. I think the American People can see through some of what you may be stating with the best of intentions. Will you commit that you will have no pga tour events in china Going Forward . Senator, you know, im not in a position to commit the tour indefinitely, but we dont have anything planned for the foreseeable future. That will depend on what the new entity decides. The pga tour will have full control over that entity, and it will determine its schedule and where the tournaments are located. Otherwise, we will not approve, or recommend approval, of the definitive agreement. Will you commit to have no pga tour events in russia . Senator, i cant commit the pga tour for the long term, but we certainly do not have any plans to conduct any events in russia. What are the current assets of the pga tour . Our total assets are approximately three billion. And . Net assets that senator johnson referenced earlier, at 1. 3 billion. Im sorry. Which figure is correct . Gross assets approximately three billion. Net assets referenced earlier by senator johnson approximately 1. 3 billion. I have a breakdown for 2021 of the pgas revenue. If we can put that chart up . The pga tour brought in over 1. 5 billion in revenue in 2021. Less than 3 of it, 43,684,000 was expensed as charitable grants. I dont mean to minimize that amount, its a lot of money, but my question is where did the rest of it go . The rest of our revenue would have been, the cost produced for revenue, and our largest cost is what we pay our players who compete for prize money. Through our tournaments. How much of that money went to players . I would have to check. In 2021. I can tell you that in 2023, we will distribute almost one billion to our players. Out of how much revenue . Our gross revenues in 2023 are approximately 2. 1 billion. And would it be fair to say that the remainder of that amount goes to produce the tournaments . The cost of producing the tournaments, the cost of generating the revenues, theres charity distributed also, and if i could add, senator, just for clarification, we are a 501 c 6 membership or trade association. Our mission is to generate Economic Opportunities for our players, but we have voluntarily structured our tournaments in a way so that the net proceeds of our tournaments go to charity. So in addition to what you had on that shirt, there are tournaments who are giving their net proceeds to tournaments, because we partner with 501 c 6 organizations. That is how we generated over 213 million for Charity Last Year and over 3. 6 billion humidity. You owns a number of tournaments correct . No, sir. We partner with a 501 c 3 organization who conducts the tournament. Your partner, but who owns the tournament . We conduct the competition, but the local Charity Organization that we work with in hartford sells the tickets, the hospitality, and sponsorship, and the net proceeds they generate, which are annually i think approximately 2 million, goes back to charity in the local hartford community. If this litigation has ended, and your revenue is almost three billion a year, why do you need the saudis billion dollars . We did not seek the saudis. We were in a situation where we faced a real threat but you could go elsewhere for a billion dollars, three billion dollars, maybe 50 billion dollars. Correct . We could, when we went down that path we would end up giving up total control of the pga tour. This particular situation, not only do we preserve the tours future leadership you could insist on the same requirements for independents in the tour that you are insisting on, you say, from the saudis. We could potentially try that approach, but we would still face the threat of a 700 billion dollar fund recruiting our players, and operating a league in a irrational economic manner. Well, again, i can only emphasize to you, mr. Price, that your players like tiger woods gave up hundreds of millions of dollars. They stood strong. I hope the pga tour will as well. I may have more questions, but with apologies to my colleagues, im going to turn to senator johnson. Let me first state, mister chairman, i just dont think its appropriate to be asking these representatives of the pga to make assurances in terms of what they will and will not do. Obviously, they have to assure us they will follow the law, but exactly how they operate, they are a private organization. They deal with a complex set of issues in terms of running a lead for the benefit of their players and i would say for fans. I think things have gotten modeled here. First of all, the pga never would have sought additional funding. Thats right. You did not need it. The only reason you are looking for funding from the pif his in accommodation for to pif have a seat at the table in running golf. If you dont offer them that seat, they will take their 700 billion dollars and just keep taking off players one by one until they destroyed the game of golf at the highest competitive level. Isnt that how you see it . Thank, you senator. Its very important. We did not decide one day we will go over to riyadh and bring these guys in here. So you were highly reluctant to reach out to them . Well, we got to the table because of the existence of liv. They own 100 up liv. They have billions of dollars in liv. They have no economic constraint or time constraint. So, when you deal with a normal investor, they want a return quickly. They have a long horizon. I dont exactly know all their thought process, but they view it differently. They pursued us. We did not decide to sue them. They took our players. Their entire existence is based on taking more of our players. Thats just the reality. We are not complaining about it, that is just what it is. First of all, you would be justified and complaining about it. I mean you faced an existential threat. You faced this for two years. You engaged in litigation. He spent, what, about 50 million just trying to defend yourself . All of a sudden then theres a way out of this. Potentially. There is a truce. Because of some Favorable Court hearings, or rulings, but there is no guarantee that you are going to continue to win Court Rulings. You could have lost. I will answer senator marshalls question. From what i know, it seems like you achieved, in a really bad situation, between a rock and a hard place, you actually carved out a win win situation. Yes, thats not to speak to the sport washing aspect and the concerns. Again, mr. Dunne, if anyone has concern of what happened on 9 11, its you. You lost 40 of your colleagues, your mentor, in this. So, we need to rerecognize reality that you still face. There is no deal. Theres no guarantee you will have a deal. If you dont get a deal, you will have the saudis willing to spend billions and billions. And at some point in time, players who were loyal to the pga tour will say this isnt going away. Im a champ for not accepting 10 million, 50 million, 100 million to go over to this league. We will just leave the pga tour behind. Now, rather than playing for the purity of the competition, for the title, its about money. Its like, i make 10 million bucks whether i win or not just by showing up. That destroys the game of golf. That is my perspective of this. Can you tell me more im wrong . Or where i am right . You know, senator, golf is a little different. You know, youve got to show up and to get out of the ground. Senator blumenthal, i guess that quote i said, it takes a lot to turn down a lot of money, if i recall i think it was in reference to tiger woods. He is the example of that. He digs it out of the ground. Its hard. Its hard to say no to all of that. We have a lot of unbelievably got the guys that love the game that have said no. And we want to support them anyway we can, one way or another. We will be there and we will do that. By the way, it sounds like the pif, reading the documents behind this, that they were recognizing the players that stay true to the pga tour. And they were going to find some way to compensate that. I saw some documents. They were obviously aware of that. Correct . Yes. So im running out of time, but i want to underscore my concern about holding this hearing. I could say whole lot more, but i dont want to clear the deal. This is a delicate, delicate negotiation. There is nothing certain about this. Again, from what i see out of an awful situation, you know, mr. Dunne, by you reaching out and others negotiating on this, youre getting a good deal as we can expect. Its about as win win situation. Recognizing what ill remind was looking for, a seat at the table. A say in how golf operates, but no control. You retained that control. So my suggestion, and again, i dont say that dont have a role to play. Maybe once there is a deal to come back and take a look at this, what i mean for the time being, mister chairman, i would recommend we give these guys the space to negotiate something, i think their motivations are pure. They are trying to preserve this game. They are trying to do right by their players and this country. Give them the space to negotiate a deal, and then if we have a problem with it we can come back and look at it later. But, mr. Price, mr. Dunne, do you have any comments on that . We are trying to negotiate a deal that preserves our leadership role in professional golf so that we can fulfill our mission for our players and charity. And if we cannot do that as we negotiated deal, we wont recommend the definitive agreement for approval. And again, if you dont get a deal, the saudis will just keep point million millions into this overtime. The players who showed loyalty to the pga tour will at some point in time say ive got to provide for family. You talked to me in my office, you know, golf you are too bad swings away from losing the confidence to be able to compete with that high level. Its pretty tenuous. All of a sudden ideal with live could be pretty attractive. Senator, theres no denying that. Some players that have went have expressed that. Its a reality. Its hard. Professional golf is very hard. If we are able to get to an agreement that is definitive, and i appreciate senator blumenthals concerns. We are all concerned about the same thing. With that good guidance, it will help us in the negotiation to know what is important are not. But if we do get to an agreement, the players that i need, we want to do everything we can for them and we want to do everything we can for the game. We want to do everything for the sponsors and charities. That is what we are trying to do. Really its what we are trying to do. Again, i appreciate your challenge, what you are up against, i just wish you the best of luck. Thank you. In the interest i have a number of responses, but in the interest of deference to my colleagues who are waiting to ask questions, i will wait turn over to senator carper. Thank you for being here today. Mr. Dunne and mr. Price, good to see you. Thank you for your time and your input. As the former chairman of the committee, this committee, the Homeland Security committee, and as the Ranking Member of this subcommittee that is gathered here today, i hope that this is the first of a number of hearings that will provide our colleagues an opportunity to Work Together on a range of issues that will benefit the American People. Mr. Done, mr. Price, we can thank you for joining us in an effort to shine some light on a topic that is generated a whole lot of interest. Not just from congress, but from sports fans. Concerned citizens here at home and probably beyond our borders. The proposed framework between the pga tour and the saudi based Public Investment fund is a complex issue that will likely impact the game of professional golf for a long time, maybe decades. It may set a precedent for other sports and professional leagues here in the United States. I am aware that there are probably more questions than answers at this early stage, but im glad we have an opportunity to start asking them today. I go back and forth on the train most nights to deliver. Its an easy train right, about an hour and a half. My wife and i lived there, and we oftentimes, she will say to meet, what are you working on today . At the end of the day, what happens . She will ask me once i get home tonight, im sure, what did you work on today . Shes from North Carolina. She was born in North Carolina and i was born in West Virginia. An unlikely place to have an interest in golf i would say, but there was a call for their named sami sneed. Before there was arnold palmer, there was samis need. It was bigger tonight. In the state West Virginia where my sister and i were born, later we lived in a place called danville, virginia. My dad would actually take me with him not to play golf, but to kathy. They would have us do that every couple of weeks. I would get to caddie and make a few dollars. One day, the tonight show up. My dad said, how would you like to play golf . I was like 12 years old. I got to use his clubs. They were style is made. He made me cant every stroke. I shot that day at 214. [laughter] but i was encouraged by my dad and the others who are playing golf that day. They said you might have said some kind of record, which is probably true, but the next time i played i cut 65 strokes. You can only do better. For some, including my dad, said i was marked for greatness. [laughter] still, i enjoyed the game of golf and no that you love the game of golf as well. I think that you can and the pga tour Charitable Mission of the tour. In your testimony, i think you both state that the pga tour has contributed millions of dollars to charities locally were tournaments are played, including in wilmington, delaware. It hosted just last year the bmw championship. And on the pga side, we hosted for many years the ladies pga championship in delaware and raised a whole lot of money for a very good cause there in our states. I am told that the heavens Scholars Foundation and delaware, which provides tuition and Housing Assistance for low Income College Students who work as caddies, will receive additional funding thanks to the effort we are talking about here today. And im grateful for the support your urbanization is lent to our state and to countless others. Having said that, i will say i am concerned because im sure, as you are, that said it reveals records run counter to the towards stated values of inclusion and respect. My question as a result, maybe just one question for both of you, but are you concerned that the proposed Framework Agreement will provide the Saudi Arabian government the opportunity to hide its human rights record behind the tours values . Also, i know my colleague, i think our senator blumenthal, i might have touched on this issue earlier during the hearing, but if the proposed Framework Agreement becomes finalized, can you definitively tell us that the pga tour and its players will be able to speak freely about human rights record of saudi arabia . Thank you, senator, and yes i can tell you that if the Framework Agreement, if we moved from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement, our players will be freely able to speak about saudi arabia. The pga tour fully supports human rights. We support complete access to our game from all individuals, whether they are participating or attending an hour events, and the only way we will move forward with a definitive agreement is if the pga tour is in complete control, and our tournaments continue to be operated in accordance with our values and initiatives, which includes operating for our players, but also a charity as you appropriately mentioned with the bmw championship that was conducted in wilmington last year. Thank you. Mr. Dunne, do you want to add anything to that . Senator, i completely obviously support both what you said and what ron said. Critical in this Framework Agreement, and the hope towards a definitive agreement, is the control. And we absolutely agree with what youve said, and we wouldnt go ahead, its not going to get any support without it. All right. Thank you both. My time has expired. Thank you. Thank you senator carper. I will recognize colleagues for a second round, if you wish to use the time. Senator marshall. Thank you again, mister chairman, and senator carper, thank you for your thoughtful questions. And the wisdom you always pass on. I want to go back to the antitrust issue just for a second. Im not an attorney. Im trying to understand the process, but its my understanding that the pga tour was under some sort of a antitrust issue investigation. As you were Going Forward, what type of advice were your attorneys giving you if you did this merger . Is it going to increase or decrease your risk of exposure to in antitrust issue . Mr. Price. Thank you, senator. Yes, we were undergoing an investigation with regard to our regulations and how they apply to the players that we had suspended who joined the live golf league. We have been notified that the anti trust regulators are also going to look at our Framework Agreement, and we plan to fully cooperate with that investigation, but we do see this, if we are able to move from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement, it is going to heal a fracture in golf. The fracture in golf could have led to less fan interest and, you know, a decreased product and opportunities for all professional golfers. We think as a result my question is will this increase or decrease your antitrust risk . Is that what the attorneys, are they giving it any advice on this merger . The regulators are certainly taking a look at it. We believe that it should not violate the antitrust rules, but we plan to fully cooperate with that investigation. Thank you, mr. Price. Let me go to mr. Dunne again. Would it be fair to say that some golf venues benefit from the traditional pga tour, and other golf venues were benefiting from the new liv tournaments going on . Mr. Dunne. Thank you, senator. I want to make sure i understand. So, definitely where the pga tours, the local communities, as senator blumenthal talked about in connecticut, by intention, design, total focus, they will definitely benefit. And the same is true for the liv venues as well . That those venues were making money. I think they get paid 20. I dont know the crowds are quite the same. Right. As you were all concerned about liv Going Forward, was there any particular venues that were often talked about that there was concern about whether it liv was playing . Or any type of money concerns from the venue locations . You are asking me, senator . Yes. That never came up in any single discussion that i ever had with anyone. But im not privy to every discussion. But there was no discussion about coveting or not desiring. Everything was about our players, our fans, our sponsors. How we could get something that would work for everybody. We never discussed where they play. Mr. Price, were there any discussions at your level about concern where the venues were . Going forward, where the venues might be . No, sir. Certainly nothing i was aware of. I agree with jimmie and that the focus was on liv and what they were doing to try to recruit our players. That they are your players . Yes. They are former pga tour members. So they were our players before they left to go join liv. Okay. Are they contractors for you all . Do they work for you all . They are independent contractors. So they dont have to play in all of our events, but our regulations stipulate that they cant play for a competing league unless they get a conflicting event release. These players did not. These are regulations where a Membership Organization, they were regulations that were developed by the members themselves. So they are free to get paid for a northerly, they just cant go back and forth. Okay. Thank you. I will close with this on a positive note. Mr. Dunne. Yes, sir. I feel your passion. We have never met before, but your passion for this game of golf. Tell us why. Why do you love this game . For this important to you about it . Its a good question, senator. You know, you have your faith, your family, and your friends. And golf has made a huge difference in my life. My father always talked about there were three important things. Number one, get to the best called you could get into. But to, mary the right woman. And number three, get good enough at golf so you wont be scared on the first tee. Other than health, faith, family and friends, if you do that it will be all right. And ive made so many friends in so many situations, including today. Less enjoyable, but it is an experience. And im a very proud american. I know its not ideal, but im pretty proud of being in front of senators. The game of golfs hard its hard to dislike somebody you play golf with. I think golf is a global sport. We are reaching out to all parts of the world and i think the more people that do it, the better chance we have for a better world. Senator hawley is recognized. Thank you, mister chairman. Mr. Price, i want to come back to the answers you gave me regarding the pga tour in china. Just to make sure i understand where this rests currently. What the current status is. Lets see if ive got the facts right. In 2018, the pga tour announced a 20year agreement for a new entity called pga tour china series. A 20year agreement. This is what your spokesperson said about it just as recently as last year, 2022. Quote, the pga tour established a separate entity based in beijing, china. Continuing, the pga tour series china is owned and operated by the pga tour and supported by the General Administration of china. Thats the Chinese Government along with the china gulf association. Now, you are telling me this entity no longer exists . Senator, i would have to get the facts for you on pga tour of china. I thought you said to me a little bit of go that you did one event in 2019 and it doesnt exist anymore. From an event standpoint, that series has not operated since 2019. Because of covid. It has not operated because of covid, and we have no plans to continue that tour. Because of covid . Because just as recently as last year you had events scheduled in china that you had to ultimately cancel because of covid, but that doesnt sound to me like you suspended your business arrangements. I would have to check the status of the contract, senator, but its my understanding just wait a minute though. This is important because you told me just a minute ago when i talked about pg a tort series china, that it wasnt happening. That its gone. Now youre telling me something different. Now you are telling me, but, we still have the business arrangement. Actually, you are coming and calling on that, but dressing we havent done in events in china. Of course not, because of the covid restrictions. You have not been allowed to. Im trying to ascertain whether you still have this 20year agreement with the chinese and 80s to do tour events in china. You had pga tour officials living in china in order to facilitate this. Do you see what im driving at . My question is, does pga tour china, this and it d that deter homes based in beijing, for which you have signed a 20year contract, does it still exist . I can tell you two things. First is i would have to tick check the status of the contract. I do not believe it is currently in force, but i would have to check that. And we will be happy to get you information on that. The second thing i can tell you is that we have not operated since 2019, and its my understanding that we have no plans to continue that series. As long as covid exists or . Period. And why is that . From a business standpoint we are not going to continue that series in china. I think you can see what my concerns are, but just so im crystal clear. My concern is that become in government china has systematically attempted to use and influence American Sports organizations, and lots of other entities, our media and entertainment industry, companies, lots of them. They are not shy about using leverage. We have used the term sports washing a lot today. I think its applicable in this situation. And senator blumenthal referenced earlier the brutal crackdown in hong kong, which i guess i will say i had the privilege, maybe its the misfortune, of seeing for myself firsthand on the streets there. And while that was going on, what was china doing . What was beijing doing . They were applying maximal pressure on the nba. They had a lot of very lucrative contracts with china. The chairman mentioned daryl morey, at the time general manager of the Houston Rockets, who ventured frankly the most and dine statement in support of the people of hong kong. It was the most moderate, it was a tweet. For this he was blasted by nba players, certainly by china, by owners. By his own owner. He ultimately resigned. So it worries me when i see pga doing business with the Chinese Government, subjecting its players and this association that you have lauded so much today, to those same pressures from a government that is brutal, that is repressive, and that is attempting to use american institutions as a megaphone for their own totalitarian, dystopian, it frankly evil policies. When you imprisoned millions of people in concentration camps for the purpose of eradicating their religious beliefs and killing them, and that is what they are doing with the leakers, you are an evil regime. When you treat your own people as slaves, and that is what they are doing, you are in evil regime. I dont want to see american institutions coopted by that regime. That is where im coming from with this. I would hope we share that perspective. So i look forward to your responses in writing as to the status of your business agreement. I continue to be interested as to why on your formed 190 in both 2018 when the deal was announced, and then in 2020 after your event, that this was not disclosed. I would like to know why that is. And i would like you are assurances, your commitment, that you are not going to restart this series in china and that you are not going to conduct Business Operations with millions worth millions of dollars in financing from chinese entities. Can you give me that commitment . Senator, i will give you the information on the status of our contract in china. I will certainly follow up with you for the disclosures in the 990. As i stated, we have no intentions of continuing that series from my perspective. And i cant commit the tour for the long term. I am not in position to do that, but theres nothing in the short term or immediate future, from a tournament standpoint, that we are considering doing in china. I would just say final, mister chairman, that i think the era in which institutions, Sports Leagues, businesses, when they say with regard to communist china that they leave the politics to other people. They dont take position on issues. I think that time has passed. When you have a government that is that is as oppressive and imperial is that government is, and is doing to its people what that government is, and has decides to do to others around the world what that government wants to do, i think its time for american companies, american institutions, to stand up and be counted. And i hope that the pga will. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you, senator hawley. That is exactly why we are here today. That is why we are conducting this investigation, and why we will broaden it as appropriate to include other institutions, and other repressive regimes and their potential impact on our institutions whether its corporations or sports organizations. And i would just say, you know, we simply at the qatar world cup, fifa prohibited players from wearing armbands with rainbow flags. We dont know whether qatar imposed this limitation on fifa or people wanted to avoid controversy when it made its own deal with a repressive government, but the effect had a ban on free expression. This effort to restrict, punish, torture, in prison, kill people who stand up for their beliefs is a growing worldwide phenomenon. And i would hope that it would unite us on a bipartisan basis. Can you commit, mr. Price, that the tour would never agree to a similar restriction if saudi arabia, which has a particularly troubling record on lgbtq rights, wanted you to do it . Senator, we believe in full access to our events. From a participation standpoint, from an attendance standpoint, we dont believe in any restrictions on that. Is the answer yes . Senator you would never agree to . You would never punisher players . He would reject saudi arabia or the governor of the saudi wealth point, if they look to impose that restrictions, and you would never impose it yourself . We would never impose it. We determine where our events are plate. We will not conduct tournaments under those rules. So you wouldnt do it in saudi arabia. Not according to those rules. Let me ask you, i mentioned earlier the agreement involving greg norman. Was that ever executed . No, sir. Is it your understanding that there is an agreement that he will no longer have his present position . Thats in the talking points that you reported prepared. Yes, sir. Under the Framework Agreement, if we are able to move to a definitive agreement, and its approved, the liv golf assets for which greg norment is hardly the commissioner, they will move into a new subsidiary, pga tour subsidiary controlled by the pga tour. Those events will be managed by the pga tour. We have a complete infrastructure in place to manage events. It would make no sense to bring in that type of executive to manage what is now 14 series of events. Just to be clear, hes out of a job . If we reach a definitive agreement, we will not have a requirement for that type of position. Our review of internal documents indicates theres other understandings and agreements. Would you tell us about them . Im not aware of any other understandings or agreements that are not reflected in the Framework Agreement, which is still to be negotiated. Everything is being negotiated. What are the other signed agreements, or informal understandings . I am not aware of any other side agreements were informal understandings. Is that because you are not permitted to talk about them . Or because there are none absolutely . None exist to my knowledge. Let me ask you when were you first informed about these negotiations that have been described by mr. Done and documents . Mr. Moynahan informed me shortly before the london meeting that we might have an opportunity to engage with the Public Investment fund. To settle the litigation and potentially to establish a framework where the pga tour would be in a position to continually professional called. Were any of the other independent directors on the board informed about it . About the conversations or negotiation . Senator, our director, jimmy dunne, was obviously aware. I should have been clear. Aside from mr. Dunne, who was involved in the negotiation . Our board chair ed hurley was aware of negotiations. By the way, with respect to mr. Hurly, he is the cochairman of lipton . Yes. Were they involved in providing you advice . Yes. Were they advising you are representing him in the litigation . Yes. Mr. Dunne, you have been involved with business governments for decades i would say. Is it common to keep these kinds of negotiations secret from a corporations governing body . It strikes me as remarkable. Senator, every negotiation, every deal, has its own rhythm. This Framework Agreement, settled the litigation, and then said we are going to be talking. We were really afraid whats the other side slurs but everything about it, that it would be gone. But most corporations trust their boards of directors. In fact, they are intimately involved and informed. One of your board has resigned because of this breach of common trust and practice. Wouldnt you say its pretty unique in your experience . What i would say, senator, was that the conversations i think were fragile. And i really felt that, on the saturday, i guess its memorial day, i thought they were over frankly. We did have a discussion earlier on where i mentioned to the chairman and to the commissioner, i said weve got to do this. The chairman said thats the commissions decision at the commissioner said we will decide when we decide. My understanding is that he had the authority to sign the agreement, which is simply terminates the lawsuit. And then with the knowledge that Everything Else would have to be discussed after that. Now, thats all i can say about that. Thats all i know about that. But you would agree that most corporations, most executives, ceos, feel a duty. In fact, i would argue that legally, as well as morally, they have a duty to keep their boards of directors informed. Why this near unique secrecy with your own board of directors . You simply did not trust them . Senator, ive been to two board meetings. [laughter] i started in january. So i was not an expert on the dynamic of the board very honestly. The bed was on fire when you got into it . No, liv put us on fire. Liv put us in an incredibly difficult position. Liv was a constant every day whos going to go . It was very disruptive. Im going to come back to livs disruptive effect when i return. Unfortunately, im going to have to vote. We have a vote going on right now, and i apologize, i will have additional questions when i come back. Im going to turn to the Ranking Member. I will be back. We are in the middle of a vote right now. I will be back in a matter of a few minutes. Thank you, senator. Thank you, mister chairman. Before you go, i mean, did the board object to the fact that the lawsuit was dismissed . Once it was finally revealed, did anyone on the board say, hey, this is awful . We should continue to engage in this legal action. [laughter] no. No, they did not. The reality was, in fact, mr. Stevenson described to me as this is just a litigation settlement. Theres really not much to this. But he was not happy about not knowing about it. You would have to ask him. We can emphasize again that there is no deal. There is no deal. There is no agreement. There is a settlement of the lawsuit and we are talking and trying to see if we can do something that makes sense for our players, sponsors and fans. That is what we are trying to do. Really hard. And this is not making it any easier. Lets be honest, this is not making your job any easier. Well, if you are addressing me, senator, ron is doing the negotiation. Mr. Price. Correct. But being here in washington worrying about this, being consumed with this, no, its making it a lot harder. A lot, a lot harder. I can say some things, but the chairman is not here to hear them. I will say them anyway. From my viewpoint, i dont see the pga as doing anything wrong here. And unfortunately, from some of my colleagues, the line of questioning implies there is something nefarious. That there is something wrong. That you violated, you know, for example your duty to the board. Can you just address that . Mr. Price, we will start with you. Thank you, senator. No, certainly from our point of view we faced an existential threat as you indicated earlier. Our sole purpose was to preserve our existence so that we could continue to benefit our constituents and players and charity, our ability to continue to lead professional golf, and as a result, get into a position of where liv golf was not leading professional golf. And controlling golf for its operations. The negotiations were confidential. So that surprised a lot of people. That was unfortunate that we had to surprise people, but it was necessary. As jimmy has said, or otherwise, we would not have been able to reach an agreement on the deal. By the way, i fully understand the other sides lawyers got wind of this, again, they wouldve seen a bunch of legal fees going up in smoke. Right . They wouldve done Everything Possible to tank the dismissal of the lawsuit. Because theres no deal, there is a framework, but the only thing definitive is where able to get that legal liability off your plate. Correct . That is correct, senator. There have been an awful lot of questions and comments, and youve been asked to give different assurances in terms of what the pga tour will do or wont do. I want to give you the opportunity, described what the tour actually is. Who your duty is to . You know, what your duty is not. Obviously, you are human beings and dont like seeing repressive regimes. From a business standpoint, youve got away, if you involve yourself in a country that is doing things that maybe your fan base will not approve up. I mean you would certainly have to, you know, factor that in your decision, whether or not you hold a tournament somewhere or not. Correct. Mr. Dunne, i think you talked about this break convincingly, utah love this game of golf. You think golf can help repair breaches. Right . Yes. Talk a little bit about just the game of golf, being used globally, we talked about meritocracy, it does not matter what kind of race you are, you know, it literally makes no difference. If you can shoot a lower score than anybody else, you will be able to compete at the highest level. Just talk about what you think the game of golf can do for the world. You know, i am very jaded on this, but i have a tremendous, tremendous respect and appreciation and love for the game of golf. Just in the world prospect, and i know theres been a lot of discussion about 9 11 involvement, but if you look it even in saudi arabia, i think theres 18 Million People under the age of 32, saudi men and women. I think it would be good if they did not think every american hated them. You know, because they had absolutely nothing to do with 9 11. And i think that golf can be enforced throughout the world. Now, in complete respect to that, senator, we will not be negotiating with them. They will not have been the first pick, but first of all we did not need money. You did not choose. No, no, we got to the table because of the situation at hand, which is the vulnerability to the door. And the tour, one thing that has really come out, and that is very important, is the top 50 at the door at that moment are critical to the viability of the tour. And what it will be Going Forward. So if you lose a number of those players, sponsors become very unhappy. You dont have the level of competition. We would like the best players, playing against each other all the time. We would like to be able to have that product, but still protect the interest of the drawer. There are just so many things we could do correctly if we could have the game united in level competition. I think the competition could go up, the interest level could go up, and you could see situations like the u. S. Open. It wasnt a tour event, but a guy won that tournament and it was amazing how he was able to do that. Its just Something Special and unique. What i would say, and again, it was just fun watching part. It was awesome. Hes got to keep it together until he sinks that putt, but the fact of the matter is, had it been a bunch of players who no one knew their name, it might have been the u. S. Open and people still wouldve tuned in, but if it were another tournament you would not have had the viewer ship. You would not have had the audience. You would not have had the revenue or sponsors. We can and we kept, if that is what the pga tour looks like, just a lesser tour without the stars, that hurts everybody in the game of golf except for the saudis who have an Unlimited Bank account and who want to buy their way into the game of golf. Thats the reality you faced. Senator, i have competed in business my whole life, and generally there are economic principles that make sense that you have to apply. Within that framework that gets tougher, you have to work harder, get more knowledge, do all the things that frankly makes america great. This situation is different. You know, to give the charity 50 million it takes a lot of work to create that. Its a very different deal here. Mr. Price, lets talk about the progression of the game of golf. The stars of yesteryear made a fraction of what starts today make. Correct . Correct. The 1. 5 billion. You know, people use that term like its just a lot of money, and it is, but that is revenue. You have expense behind that. Correct. So talk about how the 1. 5 million in general, just gross terms, how you generate the 1. 5 billion revenue. Youve got the tv revenue, what you get from tournaments when you sanction the events. Tell us a bit what the revenue stream is and how difficult it is to bring in that revenue stream year in and year out. How youve grown it over the decades and how the prize money has increased to retain players under the threat of liv. That also put the towards ability to fund this stuff at risk. But just explain the Business Model. Yes, sir. Thank you, senator. Our Business Model is predicated on media revenue and sponsorship revenue. That drives over 80 of our growth revenues. We have some other form of revenues, hospitality and tournaments, licensing revenues, our Tournament Players Clubs, but its primarily predicated on media and sponsorship. By the way, the same media could pay for viewer ship rights for the other tours. Correct . Yes. And they do to a certain extent, but not at the level the pga tour does. That is correct. They are trusting us when they enter into those agreements, that we are going to deliver an excellent field of players to them, and its going to include our top players, or our strong representation of our top players. So, weve had some loyal players. Weve had a strong group of loyal players that have remained with us, and we are very proud of that. And as we talked about earlier, we are going to make sure those players are recognized. What if liv stays in existence and continues to take our top players from us, that will put pressure on our ability to retain media revenues and sponsorship revenues. They could decline in the future if liv said that is the existential threat. And if they decline the earnings opportunities not only for those top players, but for all players, then thats the threat we face. That is what we are trying to work through. Again, that is the existential threat toward still faces. Yes. We need to understand this threat has not gone away. That is correct. Custer dunne, just speculate if you are not able to conclude this deal. By the way, this thing has to be concluded by the end of the year. Again, the lawsuits are not renegotiated. Correct. But liv good once again reengage and trying to track more and more players, to build their to war at the expense of the pga tour. Just talk about what is going through the players minds right now. Well, understandably the players were shot. The real problem was the initial announcement. What should have been said is liv and the pga tour have agreed to settle their lawsuits. They are terminated with prejudice, so we win those cases. And they agree to have discussions where pif could be an investor, a minority investor, and potentially an ongoing entity. That wouldve been great. Real quick though, you did not really have a choice whether or not you can announce this. The lawsuits are going to be dismissed. Those are going to be public Court Filings so you had to make an announcement. Or acknowledge the fact you maybe did not make the announcement you wouldve liked so people start speculating. Thats right. Like you have a hard deal, but you dont have a heart deal. We have no agreement. We have an agreement to get to an agreement. So i think the way it was announced, which was really bad, everybody jumped to a conclusion. Maybe even this body, that we are selling, we are not. But we are really trying to figure out the right thing to do for our players and the global game of golf. By the way, we will try hard to get an agreement. Im hopeful that we will. If we dont, we will have to go through some other, we will have to go back and compete and we will do it. We will do. It ive been following the news pretty carefully. I have certainly sensed a softening, at least by some players, after they got over the initial shock when they start realizing the situation wherein. You know, how you are trying to preserve what is in their best interest. The game of golf. They said sunlight as the greatest disinfectant. When the facts come out, and you know, in hindsight i wish we had put, and we couldnt because youre not allowed to do it, but i wish we had put the agreement out day one and everybody could see that there is no there there. And i think, ron, you might have said it at the player meeting, we were both at it a couple of weeks ago in connecticut. That we had Just Announced what it was, it would have been fine. You know, everybody is to blame for that. I will take my share of blame for that to. Dont beat up on yourself too bad for that. Theres been a lot made about that tentative disparagement clause. First of all, mr. Dunne, youve done a lot of deals. That is not unusual, and antidisparagement clause, in any agreement. Right . Senator, it is very common because its hard to get an agreement with someone if you are saying bad things about them. I understand the sensitivity to it, and i think its worth consideration, and i applaud senator blumenthal for raising it, because in this country we believe in free speech. This has a very short term. If we get to a deal, terrific. If we dont, its gone. By the way, theres nothing the pga tour can do to bind players to disparagement. They got freedom of speech, correct . Im not even sure theres anything you can do to bite members of the board. You might be able to bind the organization from issuing public releases. Mr. Price, whats your understanding, what would be the enforceability, if any . We do not plan to enforce anything against our players for speaking their minds. They are free to speak their mind. Again, how enforceable would it be against any member of the board, for individuals, as opposed to the organization . Im not an attorney, but i would think Board Members are free to speak their mind. Okay. Mister chairman, i just took the opportunity to give the pga a chance to once again highlight the reality of the situations. Some of their Business Models, how they generate revenue, how crucial it is they are able to retain the top players, so this thing does not splinter off into two separate doors. I think they did a good job doing that. I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks. Thank, you senator johnson. You know, thinking a little bit about some of your responses over to vote. First, thanks to mr. Dunne for understanding the concerns that i have raised. I guess my feeling is these are concerns about free expression. There are concerns about players and about your fans. About the game that you so dearly love. Isnt it better to have these concerns aired before you are locked into an agreement . Senator blumenthal, im a grateful american citizen. You asked me to come and see, i will come and answer all your questions. Yeah, whatever you say, im happy to answer any questions and work the best i can to help the pga tour, help the game of golf, and help what we are doing. I want to know what the concerns of the American People are poor or you are straight jacketed and locked into an agreement that may in fact, unfairly, and even illegally, bind you, your players, sponsors, and others. Senator blumenthal, we appreciate everybodys interest. We appreciate your involvement and thank you. By the way, i cited the statement by jon rahm. I think the general feeling i am quoting is that a lot of people feel a bit of betrayal from management. Have other players expressed those kinds of concerns to you, mr. Price . Thank you, senator. Due to the confidential nature of the settling the litigation, and signing the Framework Agreement, we surprised a lot of people, including our players. So weve had a lot of work to do to make sure that our players understand what we did, and why we did it. They are very interested in that. Our players are starting to understand why we did it. And they are starting to see the significant benefits for them, the game of golf, and all of our constituents. If we can move from the Framework Agreement to the definitive agreement, but there they are still very interested in the terms. They want to make sure we are in control. Have you received anything in writing from any of the players . I have not personally. Has the pga tour received anything in writing from any of the players . I dont see everything that goes through our other executives. Are you aware of communications in writing from your players . You understand there have been . There certainly could have been, yes. A lot of players were surprised. Have you seen any . I dont recall seeing any. Have you heard about any . You know, ive heard about a lot of discussions about players being surprised. Could you make them available to this committee . If they are written communications, we will certainly make them available. Thank you. What would you say to the players who feel blindsided . Blindsided and betrayed . Thank you, senator. Its what weve been saying. We have been explaining why the negotiations had to be confidential and what the benefits work to entering into the Framework Agreement. A lot of players, not all, are beginning to understand exactly why we had to do it and this can be beneficial for them and charity and all of our constituents. They are beginning to understand . Yes, sir. All of them . Not all, we still have some work to do. Not all players agree on everything. We are a big Membership Organization and we represent how many players did you notify in advance of reaching the agreement . I dont believe any players. None . No, sir. Not a Single Player was notified . Your Membership Organization, your members who are the players, you dont exist without the players, but you did not tell a single one of them . About negotiations but alone what the result would be before you announced it publicly . It was the settlement of litigation, which was binding, and then we told the players that we would go through a process but making them fully involved in what we do relative to the definitive agreement, which we are in the process of doing. Mr. Dunne, you said in an interview, i think it was last year, quote, if someone is willing to pay incredibly an economic prices, it will be unbelievably disruptive, and quote. You said that i believe, correct . Senator, i have the full faith that if you are saying its right. I dont remember what it was referenced to, but it makes sense. It seems to me that you were in effect saying there that the saudis were willing to pay money without regard to the economic profit or revenue. Correct . Correct. In other words, their interest was public image, sports washing, cleansing their reputation. Correct . Senator, i cant speak to the mind of what their intent was, but i know if you have a lot of something, you tend to be a little sloppier about it. They have a lot of money. Theyve got a lot. I mean a lot. And so when you have, like, its like anything else. If you are down to your last ten bucks, you watch it carefully. And that is how they can be disruptive, because theyve got a lot of money . Buckets full of money. Correct . Because they dont have to care about the economic results. They are a total autocracy. They dont have to care about paying players. They will just do it out of those buckets full of money, and that will continue with their dominant financial interests, their Equity Ownership of the pga tour through this profit making entity that will control financially, whatever the board of directors composition maybe. So just looking at it from a future standpoint, you are not out of the woods. They will continue to have this kind of pocketful of money, and they are going to continue to kind of wield the influence they do. That is the word that was used in the official document. And whatever the good intentions at rhetoric art now, you still have to reach a deal. So, my hope is that you will resist those buckets full of money. I think a lot of players, a lot of sponsors, a lot of charities, and, frankly, the 9 11 families were hoping a pga tour will stand up. And frankly, avoid the sell out that this deal seems to be. Because that disruptive, an economic effect is exactly what we need to resist as a nation. If we are going to be selling out to countries that can throw around hundreds of billions of dollars, we are going to lose. Not just financially, we will lose in terms of our democracy, and institutions like golf, sports are central to our society, our culture, our way of life, our self image and our image abroad. For all the reasons that you have very eloquently described, it cant exist as an institution in this country of people are not willing to stand up for it, just like other sports and other institutions. The 9 11 families, a number of them here today, theyve asked for a meeting. Would you commit to meet with them . Yes. And do you have anything maybe you would want to say to them now as long as a number of them are here . Senator, i will say now what i said on september 12th, 2001, what i said to my children growing up. Anyone remotely involved, anyone involved, anyone who profited, anyone who was involved, we should pursue them with extreme prejudice through the fullest extent, to the complete capacity, and over the years i want to thank president bush, what thank president obama, i want to thank the magnificent United States military. I want to thank the special services, they have executed i honestly believe the government, president , bush president obama, the military, the brilliant brilliant seals did their jobs, and anyone that is involved with that has answered justice. I go on to say that with my own children, it has been incredibly important to them to understand that because someone has the same skin color or religion as the people who were involved, the criminals who are involved in 9 11, it doesnt mean we hate them. That we are raised in the United States of america. It has different values. And we look at things differently. And when i grew up, in our house, we had a sign, no irish need apply. Its something my mother instilled in us, so we had a taste of what it was. Because of religion, heritage, you didnt get something that you deserved. Im proud that friend of mine once said, my second son said that he never heard me say one negative remark about any middle eastern, any muslim religion, anything like that. Im very proud of that. America stands for something different, i think if someone does a crime, you go after them. For this, crime it is death. I absolutely i believe that our special services did their jobs, and im grateful to them, but i refuse to describe a whole another people, because they had common religion, skin color, im not doing that under any condition. Thank you for those remarks. You know, i want to make clear that were not here about the people of saudi arabia, we are here because the regime and autocratic oppressive regime is torturing and imprisoning and killing its own people, because they are different, and because they expressed their views and because theyre women. They have fostered the war in yemen, and we there is mounting evidence that saudi government was complicit in the 9 11 attack. And families who are here are seeking justice against that regime. The materials youve just been handed, which also went to senator johnson, i would suggest you have a look at them. The point is, the senate actually has supported them. They enabled those families to go to court so that our courts would have jurisdiction in their quest for justice. We passed that bill, and then we passed it again when president obama vetoed it. We lead that effort. And the materials that you have been handed reflect a lack of cooperation from some of the agencies in our own government, and providing information that those 9 11 families need, seeking simple justice against saudi arabia, it is not as the reason we are here today, but it reflects many of those reasons. My hope is that you will support that effort of the family to see justice, im glad that you are committed to meet with them, and the passion that if expressed in support of our military, i think every member of the senate would bring this together. Senator johnson, do you have any other remarks . My closing comments, i think that this hearing has been constructive in a number of different ways. Its given the pga tour number two need to describe the rock and hard place they were between, and still are in. This has got a long way to go, many of you have expressed concerns that the pga tour shares. I think that is good. I would push back on the term sellout. The pga tour did not seek this, they are put in this position. The saudis, they have 700 billion, dollars if they want to be involved in, gulf they will be involved in golf. If this thing fails, they can spend the money to take over golf. I think that would be tragic and would destroy golf because it would destroy the competitive spirit and purity of the competition. So i appreciate the difficult nature have you, mister, done reaching, out starting. It i understand the difficulty of the task ahead of you. Mr. , price to conclude this negotiation, i hope that we can give them the time and space and privacy working with their members, now that theyre aware of what theyre doing, to conclude this deal and i think theres potential here. Again, this has been negotiated by somebody who, other than losing a direct member of the family, losing 40 of your colleagues is no small thing. You understand the full sensitivities. I dont think mr. Dunn would be involved with people who had any involvement whatsoever. I trust his judgment from that standpoint. I hope we can trust these individuals to do right by their members, the 9 11 families, try to preserve the game of golf, the competition at the highest levels, and see if we cant forge some kind of winwin situation where even since this is saudi arabia, since they can enjoy greater freedom, maternity, the game of golf can be used mr. Done believes it can be used to bridge divides, and improve the situation. Again, i am interested in attending this hearing, listening to, and i think good has come, of it i think its been constructive so i appreciate that. Lets give them the time and space to conclude a deal that can actually be a winwin situation for everybody involved. We appreciate you being, here thank, you senator johnson. We have learned a lot. We have also learned that we need to learn more. And so were gonna continue this inquiry and were going to ask that the other potential witnesses that we invited actually come and share their perspectives and information, i assume you would support that effort. You are talking about yes. Im here. Thank you. The more we know the more we can support the values and freedoms that we have espoused here today. And the ideals of professional golf and the pga tour, which we supported, i supported, when you asked me to meet in cromwell, connecticut, i was all in. Yes you are, thank you for. That i will continue to support the pga tour, just make no mistake, as i said before, america is on your side. We will support you. It should not be about the money, the disruption, the enamel offers. And so, i recognize that you cannot say youre going to walk away from this deal, but i hope you bargained hard and we will continue this inquiry because i think uncovering more of the facts and shining a spotlight on what is really happening here is in the national interest. And its part of our obligation. Thank you very much. This hearing is going to be adjourned. And the record will remain open for two weeks for any written questions that are submitted, the responses to senator holiday and some responses to other questions. Were very grateful to you for being here. Thank. You thank. You