Is peter pritchard. He is former editor in chief of the usa today newspaper and he is former president of the newseum and he is the author of this book killing grace, a vietnam war mystery. Mr. Pritchard, what made you write a novel about the vietnam war . I had dreamed of writing a novel, but then life intervened and i became a newspaper editor and an executive. But when covid hit, i finally i had the time to try to write a novel and i wanted to write something that wasnt really a combat novel. That was more in the vein of quiet or the ugly american. Both of them, both books had great influence without away any spoilers. Whats books synopsis . Two employees in saigon in 1967 at the height of the war are called to the investigate the murder of an american tourist named grace waverly, who whose body is found in the saigon river. And it appears to be a drowning. And she is an antiwar activist who said she came to vietnam as a peace tourist. But her real goal is to help smuggle arms back to her associates, the United States and the mps gradually realize that her death is part of a bigger conspiracy. And they try to avert a disaster. Whos been kincaid . Kincaid, the lead mp and his partner is Elijah Jackson and normally they are charged with enforcing and keeping guys on straight and narrow and out of the bars after curfew. But they get pulled in because the National Police dont want to investigate this particular because it involves an american. Oddly enough, at the height of the war there were 20,000 american tourists who visited vietnam a year. I was shocked to read that. So, peter prichard, youre writing about something 50 plus years ago. Do have experience in vietnam . Yes. I also wanted to write about antiwar culture, which i experienced. I went to college at dartmouth in the 1960s. And when was a senior, i watched professors get on the steps of dartmouth hall and announce that they were sending their medals back to Lyndon Johnson because they thought the vietnam war was an unjust and illegal war. And it dawned on me i had been reading about the draft that. I could get caught up in this even before i started my adult life. So i tried to get out of the war. I a draft dodger. The best i could do teach english to kids in massachusetts and they were more than i was. I had a hard time. I had very little discipline over the classroom. And at the end of the year i got fired for not correcting papers. And two weeks later, i was doing push ups at, fort dix. And by end of that year, i was in vietnam. So you were both a draft dodger, as you say, and a veteran of the war . Yes, sir. I served almost 14 months in kent and sadik in vietnam. We were advisers supposedly intelligence advisers to the South Vietnamese ninth division at the height the war through the tet offensive. And so 67, 68, somewhere around there, you were in 67. I arrive in country on six january 1968, and i came home in march of 69. Besides a compelling mystery story. Mr. Pritchard were trying to accomplish anything else in killing. Yes, i. You know, for a lot of people, particularly young people, they dont necessarily know a lot about vietnam. And i thought the mystery format and the format would give me a chance to write about the conflicting currents in the country at that time. We always talk now about how divided the country is, but in many, america was more divided back then when young men were scared to death of going to war and being killed in a war that was started in certain circumstances. So never even declared war and was very unpopular at home. Once the build up started, well lets go back to july 28th, 1965. Here was then president johnson. I have asked the commanding general, general westmoreland. What more he needs to meet this mounting aggression. He has told me and we will meet his needs. I have today ordered to vietnam air Mobile Division and certain other forces which will raise our fighting strength from. 5000 to 125000 men, almost immediately. Additional forces will be needed later and they will be sent as. This will make it necessary to our active fighting forces. Raising the monthly draft goal from 17,000 over a period of time to 35,000 per month. And for us to step up our campaign for a volunteer enlistment, peter prichard, what do you think when you hear that nearly 60 years later . Well it reminds me of the spring. Of 1967 when i walk out to my mailbox in amherst, massachusetts, and there were two letters inside and opened the first one, and it was from peace corps. And they they had accepted me as an english teacher in micronesia. And i breathed a great sigh of relief and imagined a lot grass skirts and me teaching people micronesia and. I opened the second letter and it was from general louis b hershey, and he said i was to report the new haven Induction Center and three weeks so didnt know what to do. So i called the peace corps and i got a nice woman on the phone and she said, sorry, mr. Prichard, but it in these circumstances, the defense takes precedence. So thats the first thing it reminds me of. The second thing it reminds me of is how it was an undeclared war which Congress Never really voted on or formally approved. There was only the tonkin gulf resolution and we consumed by the specter of a. Q. Communism and the domino theory and all of that was really probably false proposition, a false assumption that we fought a war which 58,000 americans died and millions and millions of civilians and vietnamese died. 3 million troops served over an eight year period. From 1965 to 1973. 58,000 american and servicemen women gave their lives. Mr. Pritchard, when you were there, 67, 68, did you see combat. As i said in my other note, i never had to fire my weapon. We got from time to time and would to run to the bunkers. I had some convoy duty that was the closest i ever had to into combat. We were being shot at from across a rice paddy and we stopped the jeep, hid behind the tried to see if we could see to shoot at. And then we looked and the rest of the convoy had on and we were the only vehicle left. So we got back in and drove as fast as we to get out of there. But the reality of vietnam was that you could get killed in like a thousand different ways, you know, you could get in accident, run over by a truck fall out of a helicopter, get killed by friendly. It wasnt safe anywhere. What is the time frame that killing takes place in . Exactly it starts in early 1967 with a scene at the gridiron dinner where one of the organizers of the radical group is attending the gridiron dinner with his father, whos a washington lobbyist and. He imagines easy it be to have some kind of terrorist incident at the gridiron dinner. And thats a spark that ignites his ideas about what to do about the. And then continues all through 1967 and into 68 and it was at the beginning of 1968 that the tet offensive began. What exactly was that . With the tet offensive was a series of coordinated attacks across the country. I think there were more than 500 attacks, including attacks near where i was in the delta and i had not been in country very long and we were all observing the holiday with the vietnamese and we were standing in the square in canto watching a vietnamese man crawl up a greased pole to put something on top of it as part of the ceremony and a young aide ran up to the colonel who was in charge of intelligence and said, colonel, theres a formation of five sam pans down the river and we dont know whats on. So at least in the delta, we had no warning of the tet offensive. It was a complete surprise. And although it proved to be a stunning defeat in terms of the casualties the north vietnamese and the viet cong lost, it was a complete political defeat and really changed. Americans opinions about the war and is cbs mike wallace reporting on the tet offensive january 31st, 1968. Good evening. Im mike wallace. With a bold series of raids the last three days, the enemy in vietnam has demolished the myth that alive strength controls that country. The communists hit the very heart of saigon, the capital of South Vietnam, and at least ten cities which correspond to state capitals here in the United States. And then as if to demonstrate that, no place in that war torn nation is secure. They struck at least Nine American military strongholds, unnumbered field positions. Tonight, the magnitude of those became apparent in the us report on casualties. The communists paid a heavy toll for the air strikes. Almost 5000 dead, including 660 in saigon alone, and almost 2000 captured by allied. Also, our high. 232 americans killed. 929 wounded. Peter prichard. It was more of a socalled moral victory for, the viet cong, than it was a military, wasnt it . Correct. For months, the had been telling the American People and all us soldiers there was light at the end of the tunnel that we defeating the enemy across, the country, and that there was hope that the war would ensue. And of course, when this offense had occurred, that completely upended that assumption. I remember listening to the radio the morning of the tet offensive. And general westmoreland came on the radio and said the is secure and weve the enemy. Well, it didnt seem very secure when the terrorists got inside the embassy and people had to throw a gun to somebody up there trapped to get him to be able to escape. So it really proved to the people that the war wasnt over. And apparently wasnt going to end any time soon. Does the tet offensive play a role in killing grace. I in this particular book that the story just before the tet offensive. But im doodling around on a sequel which will correct that problem. Already a sequel. Well im hoping people have told me that they might read it. So well see . Writing a book is hard and. You get into it and see what can do. But as Kate Atkinson said, youre never quite you can pull it off until do. Well, just to give some perspective from, 1961 until the fall of the saigon government, the us spent more than 141 billion in South Vietnam, about 7,000 for each of South Vietnams 120 million people, approximately. 800 billion in todays dollars. How do you that today . Well, you know, one of the themes in my book is, all of the corruption that occurred and all of the u. S. That went missing were on the black market or ended up in the hands of the viet cong and was just such an amazing stream of men and materiel that there was no way anybody could keep track of where went. Which also plays the plot of this book and any serviceman who was serving there could see that. I mean they were there. The whole premise the war was faulty because instead of declaring war and making it a Real National cause that the people were behind. We had a policy that people only served 365 days in the war zone and as a result most soldiers were focused on crossing the days off on a calendar rather than caring first about winning the war. They were focused on getting home. And, you know, we tried to serve hot food to soldiers in field. We had xs back. We had a golf course in saigon, which also plays a part in the book. And it was an insane way to fight a war. My have we changed that the years in subsequent wars, in the iraq war, etc. . How we how we leave personnel in the field . Yes, i think so. The defeat in vietnam and it really was a political defeat really had a profound effect on the American Military. And it led to the establishment of an all professional military and, the end of the draft and as a result, i think the military probably became a better it might not be better for the country because you have a force thats kind of separate from society and not everyone shares in the obligation to defend the United States. Obviously in israel, everybody has to serve in the military and long been a proponent for of some kind of National Service either served in the military or help people in hospitals or be in the peace corps. I think that would bring people together more than we are today. You mentioned corruption. Why are black markets so ubiquitous and seemingly easy to form during like this . I think its mainly because the volume of material and the opportunity to steal it. Its just very hard. Keep track of things in chaotic war, torn societies. It happens. The earthquake, you know people, you have all this aid and the enterprising criminals take a good portion of it and then charge people too for it. Its just human in some ways. And i think anyone has devised a way to stop things from going missing during conflict. So i think its a problem. Great to peter prichard. Before we talk more about killing grace and the vietnam era. Lets go to the cspan Video Library and our wayback machine. Peter prichard is former editor in chief of usa today and, president of the newseum, has appeared on cspan 63 times over his washington career and. This was the first one. It was july 2nd, 1984. Just as the rest of the newspaper is from most traditional, because its has shorter stories and more stories, the opinion page is different. Its a single topic page and any topics that we consider or do during that week will be very close to the news. And we will run for points view on that topic. Besides our own. In addition to these among four points of view will be the opposing view which will be completely opposite of what we think in the editorial column, so that we are the only newspaper in the United States that consistently, every day runs an opposing point of view, its editorial position, and our feeling is that that gives the reader a chance to read all the views, make up his or her own mind. And thats whats unique about our opinion page. And we find it is popular. So. Mr. Prichard, what were al neuharth, John Siegenthaler, the other of usa today and thinking what was your what was your for this paper. Al was the al neuharth the chief executive of the u. S. Company, then the largest Newspaper Company in the United States. And his vision was to have a National Newspaper that was available. Every state that appeal to travelers and to people who didnt get full National Report in their local newspapers. And he thought that the connecticut was in a great position to provide it because we had newspapers all over the country and printing plants all over the country. And John Siegenthaler came up with the concept of an opinion page that represented points of view, and it did not have a dominant position, an institution on every issue. As a result al said that usa today would not endorse a candidate and the president. Sure, elections in because it would put a Bumper Sticker on your nameplate and that it would turn off people who were with the candidate that you endorsed and that was his vision and he thought that usa today could a Unifying Force for the country and i think for a while was i mean it helped contribute to a common of knowledge that could get form their opinions using. Were a long ways from that today with the multiplicity sources that people listen and for a long time best selling daily newspaper in the United States and a must read for many of us here in washington. What do you think of the paper today . Well, its changed lot. And i usa today is suffering from the same forces that all other newspapers in, america, are facing. The Tech Companies have basically taken all of the revenue that used to go into newspapers, think the newspaper revenue has fallen 80 from its peak and weve lost of newspapers across, the country, so that people dont have a good source in their communities. And because of people have migrate to sources that, match their political points of view and they dont see the other of view and its just made the whole media landscape worse. My opinion, and its been very its been bad democracy because we dont have a Common Knowledge base that we can all draw upon to form our opinions. And to some extent, people are living in silos and echo chambers, listening to what they like to here, but they dont hear any other points of view in many cases. So from daily writing and editing of news to novel writing, what are the differences . Well, you dont have to worry quite so much about accuracy. You could use your imagination as my mother said. Newspaper writing very cut and dried. And the wonderful thing about novels is that you can exert your imagination. Think of all sorts of Different Things that might have. And its liberating in many ways and i really enjoy writing. Its its fun. However, in publishing climate, its difficult to sell books, difficult to get published. Its for new voices. Its just a tough economic. What kind of research did you do into killing grace . Well, since i was a vietnam veteran, ive read books about vietnam for years. Most recently i read max hastings wonderful history, where he recalls vietnam an epic tragedy, which it certainly was. And it a tragedy thats still casting ripples across the world today. And so i was familiar with many of the themes of the war and many of the things we could have done better. And i also love the quiet american, and i thought there might be a niche for a book that a veteran that was not a combat novel. There are lots of tremendous books by tim obrien and, karl marlantes, many other jim webb, many other people that are basically about combat experiences of the protagonists and i thought it would be fun to write a mystery set in vietnam that would try to capture some of the crosscurrents of American Opinion and the Antiwar Movement at the time. Now, are any of the principal characters in killing grace based on you knew from that period . Yes, several of them are. We had an interpreter at our unit in South Vietnam in the delta, who was . Chinese. Vietnamese. He had up in chalon, the chinese suburb of saigon. And one day i asked sergeant duch. His name was kept the same name. How is your war going . And he said, my war is terrible precharge, he said. And i said, well, why is that . I said, youre not in combat every day. Youre an interpreter, and were relatively safe here. And to death. And he said, its because am chinese and all vietnamese hate all chinese. And i said, they do because i believe that at that time what the government was saying, which was that the chinese were threatening us in vietnam, that it was all part of the domino theory. And i had no idea there was historic enmity between the chinese and the vietnamese. And of course, that was just one of the things we didnt know. And another thing that very few, almost none of the americans serving in the civilians or the military spoke vietnamese and we were largely ignorant of their of their desire. Evict the intruders. Over the years. And we really went it not understanding the difference between the north and the south the difference between the cultures and the difference will between the north. The political will to win the war and. The absence of that in the south. And that was one character. And i went to the red and false book street joy and got even more depressed. What was what we were doing there. So peter pritchard, what kind of information were you given our education about vietnam prior to going there and serving in the war . Well, thats actually kind of funny. So we to fort dix and had basic training and were much fitter. Three months after we got there and i had written down on the form that i would like to work in intel units for the army, thinking that it might be less dangerous than being in the infantry and. The big joke was that whatever you down, you would never get that assignment. However, i did get it and were sent to fort halburd in dundalk, maryland, part of baltimore to go to intelligence school. And they for or four months we studied the makeup of the politburo the soviet order of battle protocols and tactics, how to identify a t72 tank. There was virtually nothing about vietnamese history about how to fight guerrilla war, about how to get information in a guerilla environment. No speakers about what the experience in vietnam was like and really in terms training, it was a disaster, completely useless. Well, it sounds like we looking at it as a fight against communism. And in your book you have a scene at the gridiron dinner where president johnson is speaking again. I dont know much of this is real. And how much of this novel, but you write that president johnson delivered an anti commie ism message at the gridiron dinner that year. Yeah. He delivered many anticommunism messages. He did not do it at that particular gridiron dinner that year. So as i said in my authors note, i played with dates and dates and so forth. Publicly, johnson very strongly antiwar communist. However, he had grave doubts about getting the american soldiers involved in the ground in asia. But i think he felt hemmed in by the anticommunist fervor in the legislature and felt in many ways, i think he had no choice. And it turned out to be such a colossal, colossal mistake. And im still member of many Vietnam Veterans groups on facebook today, and people are still and dying and dealing with mental illness. And agent orange, Everything Else because of the vietnam war. And thats true of the vietnamese people and people in laos and cambodia and it was an epic, tragic and the only way to describe it. And its a shame that our wasnt able to recognize that and cut it short. Well, killing grace, a vietnam war mystery. There are some characters who express cynicism about their purpose in being in vietnam. Yes, there are a lot. There are lots of them starting with the cia man, bing garland. I think that, you know, war there were bunch of people who stayed in vietnam for a long time and they they saw what it was like mostly civilians working for the cia and other agent sees and in many ways they got to it by the country and thought that they could somehow make it better but were unable to do it. And Edward Lansdale is a good example of that. Thereve been a lot of books written about his role in in advising the government about how to fight against emergency and in and use more intelligent tactics than. We did. But i think when you see that kind of a war where the south was corrupt in many ways it didnt represent people many of the people were stealing goods. You could go to the black market and buy everything that american soldiers were meant have from sea rations to jeeps, almost. And it was easy to become cynical quickly. And the whole body. Count idea that that we were going to figure out how won the war by counting the number people would kill. That was just completely misguided. We should have been trying to change peoples minds instead of just counting bodies. So, peter prichard, when you there in 67 and 68 was the question what the heck are we doing here . Was that a common refrain . Yeah. Yeah. Was it didnt really get vocal and until later until 1970, 71, the soldiers who who served by that time had basically figured out and the country had figured out that it was a mistake and that we were probably people there to die for nothing. Unfortunately, or not much. And as a result, drug use arose among the military friendly fire shootings rose. People used to kill their lieutenants if the thinking keep themselves out of the field. Things really breaking down at that stage. And you know nixon was elected in 72 and then he took three more years to really the war, which led to more suffering. So it we should have realized it was a mistake earlier and we should have cut our losses and gotten out, but probably not long after Walter Cronkite made his famous appearance on cbs news after the tet and said, the best we can hope for is an honorable peace. Well, weve looked at the americans and some of the statistics regarding. But the vietnamese side is significant as well. A country of about 120 million at the time. The estimates that about 2 million civil deaths. And over million fighters on both sides were killed. Did we ever. Was it you this a little bit earlier but was it difficult to figure out who was for who . There was the vc. There was the nva. There was the South Vietnamese, the french impact of the french being there for years. Theres the chinese. Theres the americans. It did get a little confusing it. Well, it was completely confusing. And, you know, the typical village that americans went out to see these otake or throw the vc out of whatever, we went out to a village to take it over. The v. C. Would fire a little bit and then leave. And then as soon as the americans left, c would come back. And so these village, the villagers were living a society where during the day they were nominally under South Vietnamese control. But at night, the v. C. Controlled the place where they lived. And these were people who they werent serving 365 day tours. They were trying to survive a war which they were caught in the crossfire between sides. And so they were in an impossible situation. And the other part, one or the other problems was that there were so many viet cong spies gis in saigon, in government positions, working for american newspapers and television stations and some some cases we used to joke that the hooch maids that washed out pretty knew where our forces were going before we did. And it was a almost an impasse a situation when military at the end of the war a colonel named harry summers was at the peace talks with this north vietnamese counterpart. And he said to him, you know, whenever met you on the battlefield we were never defeated. And the north vietnamese negotiator looked at him for a moment and then said, that may be true, but its also. And one of the better quotes about, the folly of the vietnam effort. And one of your characters in killing grace vietnamese character says that life in vietnam at that time was like being a caged tiger. What did she mean . Well, she also told been dead is in love with who works for the cia chief, its assistant and. She also said you cannot breathe through another mans nose and that the vietnamese just yearn to breathe free and were unable to do it. The vietnamese were trapped in this war and they were just trying to survive. And they had a series of poor leaders and there was no particular political will to win the war. And the north vietnamese, the viet cong, were more determined to seize south and liberate vietnam from. All foreigners, than the South Vietnamese were to preserve democracy. And in fact, there wasnt much of a democracy. The elections were rigged or were never held. And so the people had no hope in their leaders. And then afterwards anyone who worked for the americans were sent to reeducation camps or murdered or whatever. So it was just an unimaginable tragedy, those people. Well, one of the principal architects of the war, defense secretary robert mcnamara, makes it appearance in your book. Secretary mcnamara of came out later and said he knew the war was a mistake all along. Whats his role . Yes, he knew. He just said so or never did anything. And unfortunately, yes he makes an appearance. He goes out to visit fortified hamlet. That was one of the ideas that the british brought to Southeast Asia that you could make these fortified hamlets and the vc from coming in at night and at the end of it theres a scene where secretary back burner attempts to say long live South Vietnam in vietnamese but instead because he didnt use his tone was correctly the South Vietnamese language depends on how six tones are pronounced. What he actually told his audience was the southern duc wants to lie down. And so everyone laughed. And that incident had its. So i put it in there. I thought it was emblematic of some of our ignorance. So 60 years on, peter prichard, president sends more and more troops. Westmoreland requests more and more troops. Robert mcnamara does not that it was a mistake all along. What do you think motivation was back here in . Washington to push this forward. You know, i dont know. I dont know if it was just inertia that we were so locked into our antics mentality at that that we we couldnt quit because it would be a defeat for american prestige and american around the world that allies would not respect. What we did. And, you know, there could have been that kind of damage to americas reputation role in the world. But i still think that would have been less deleterious than just causing more suffering for several more years, because we couldnt end this war. And of course, the you know, there were all these missed opportunities the way. Ho chi minh had been helped by the office of straticervices at the end of World War Two, when declared independence for north, he used some words from declaration of independence. He had worked as a dishwasher here in new york. He knew something about america, and they had a lot of admiration for americans. But like all vietnamese, he wanted to reject the invaders. Theyd been invaded time and again for thousands of years. And they didnt want else to rule their country. And since were a relatively country that escaped, dominate by a colonial power, we should have been able to understand that. But somehow we we couldnt what was going on and. We couldnt find the courage to admit that it was wrong to end it. Do hubris and mismanagement come up in killing grace . Yes, i think i certainly think so in terms of the whole. I dont want to get too far into the plot because itll spoil of it. But certainly what the fbi and the cia are attempting to do in the book are that to the amazing example. Of hubris, this idea that you can manipulate the Antiwar Movement for your for your own ends by doing things and unfortunately weve done at other times in our history. Adam Clayton Powell who wrote a blurbor the book observed that this was not a very far fetched idea. What the agencies did in this book and it was something that could have happened. And of course he was a person who had a lot experience of being under surveillance because of his famous father who represented and was one of the j. Edgar hoovers. Well, in killing gray of the the characters are war protesters you mentioned that a bit earlier but along with the Civil Movement did these two groups have a common goal . Yes. Well, the black panthers and the antiwar activists had a very uneasy alliance. The black panthers were much more interested in equality for black people. But as part of it. They didnt want to see young men get sent to vietnam for a cause that was so uncertain. Muhammad ali famously, i dont think he actually said, but he started at first. But the media invented it, and then he started saying that no viet cong ever called me the nword. I dont think i need to go over there. And so there was an uneasy alliance, but there was certainly a segment in the Antiwar Movement that felt that protesting and marching and using First Amendment rights was not that you had to do more dramatic to to end the war. And were inspired in part by the Buddhist Monk who immolated himself on the street during the buddhist protests in 1965. I think the famous Malcolm Brown picture of the monk burning to death in the street. And i think this helped inspire the protesters to to get more serious and really more dangerous. In fact they were hoping to bomb fort dix a dance at fort dix when that bomb went off in the Greenwich Village apartment and killed one protester. And wounded some others. Peter pritchard, 1965, was only 20 years after the end of war two, when journalists and they there some in your book that are journalists when they were in vietnam were they supportive of the goals and of preventing the domino theory or were they skeptical about the american role in vietnam . I think most journalists, when they went there early in the conflict, were supportive. You know, i read a lot of old when i was writing this book, old life and time magazines and there was lots of laudatory coverage of the american effort in. They often observed how it was a difficult situation, but in general fighting communism, endorsed by just like it was by most of the American People in the in the early and midsixties, however, some journalists, the most enterprising ones like David Halberstam and neil sheehan and others, started to covering the war more closely and more conscientiously, and they were able to do that because the American Military fly journalists anywhere they wanted to go. You could go, you could hitch a ride on a helicopter almost anywhere. Vietnam, it was really easy to do it. And so they would go places, see things that werent great like when the americans burned down that village. The famous quote was, we had to destroy the village in order to save. A zippo job as would call it in killing grace. And so they began to get more doubtful about whether this was the right way to. And at the same time, there some civilian critics in the cia were critical of the body count strategy and were talking to those people, too. So they gradually got more and more cynical about the aims of the and began to believe that it couldnt be. And halberstam had wrote to the best and the brightest in the making of a quagmire i think was one of his first books. And they were very prescient books, and sheehan wrote some very good ones, too. And so their attitudes changed as the war went on and on. Peter prichard, all pretty familiar with how soldier soldiers treated after they returned to the states from vietnam. What was your experience . Well, i spent a couple of months because i found out that if you return to the United States with, five months left, 150 days, you could get of the army. And i thought that was a good idea, but i didnt realize that i was probably suffering from a little ptsd and i should have stayed in the army and just gone with some post and binged out for five months. But instead, i just went home, lived in my parents basement, and went down every night to the vfw club or the American Legion club in, northern minnesota, where i went to high school and we drank beer. I found two guys whod been to vietnam and sit there and drink, drink beer every night. And oddly enough. The World War Two veterans at the american and maybe fwb never even came over to say objects like no one ever thanked us for our service. No, no. I had acknowledged wed been there. And then when i moved back east, if you said you had been to vietnam, people looked at you like, wow, thats. Are you i mean, what happened . You that you would do something so dumb as serve in vietnam and there was there was no one ever said welcome home. And then of course there were many incidents of being spat upon or laughed at or whatever. And it was it was bad. And i think it contributed to some of the mental problems that many veterans had after they returned. I think it only began to heal when jan scruggs got blessed and friends managed to build the vietnam war, which an incredible accomplish. Mm hmm. Have you been back . Vietnam since . No i wish i had. Everybody gone back has said its a healing and. The people ive talked to say the vietnamese people are incredibly welcoming. And you know theyve made it something great economic comeback. I mean, its an authoritarian regime. They were no dissent of any kind but they have a good Tourism Business and theyre quite welcoming to americans, forgiving. And i think many want to be forgiven and they want to visit the places theyve served in. And its a healing experience for many people. Jan for example, the founder of the vietnam war has been back many times and organized a movement pick up all the mines, the unexplored red mines in the countryside which is wonderful thing to do to for some of the things we did on an individual. Did your experience in vietnam change your worldview . Well yes, definitely i mean, i thought being in the army was a good experience. It was a wonderful way to meet people from all walks of life. It was a good way to instill discipline in a young person. And its certainly made me more serious about the world and about whatever role i could play in it. And it was a good experience, even though i was sorry for the stuff we did. I mean, i was lucky enough that i didnt to shoot anybody or i wasnt in handtohand combat or anything like, as some of my friends were. However, one of my jobs was type b52 strikes, rolling thunder, call them. And so we would type up these air strikes and say, we want to bomb this area of South Vietnam where we thought there were a bunch of viet cong guerrillas, whether there were or not. Who knows . We were paying for this intelligence. I dont know how reliable it was. It was hard to tell. But the strikes often next to where we were living excuse me. And it was like an earthquake and im sure it killed anything in its path. And im sorry for whatever involvement i had in there. In fact, you have an authors note in killing grace. I still ask gods forgiveness for my contribution to the death and destruction. This under clared war caused. Yes. And you know i believe in redemption. That i think everybody feel sorry for things they did. They should. How did the war change the us . Well, it. Its still reverberating. It. It really damaged faith in institution and it made people cynical and distrustful of government. It polarize ized huge sections of the country. People back and had terrible experiences and were unable to talk to their family it. I think thats still true. Some cases it increased our homelessness problem there are still homeless vietnam even though there are only 610,000 left alive. It. It was a disaster. And i im so sorry it happened. I wish we could have avoided it. And i think it to the divisions in politics we have today. So in 2021, when the pullout from afghanistan was happening rather chaotically. Any flashback any thoughts or. Well, i thought it was unconscionable. I mean, how do you pull out . Where you just becomes a mob scene and you keep suicide bombers away . I mean, there had to be a better way to do that. I certainly am not supportive of an endless war, afghanistan. But if youre going withdraw, we ought to be able to have sense. And the intelligence devise a plan that minimizes and doesnt get people killed. The last day of a war. That was one of my fears when extended was how stupid will i be if i get killed during the 45 days that ive stayed, that i didnt stay and, you know i thought it was a big failure. Peter prichard is the author of this book, killing grace a vietnam war mystery. And he has been our guest on cspan. Mr. We appreciate your time, peter. Its a privilege to be on cspan, and i love the civil discussion that your channel generates day and distribute around the country. Thank