As a panel discussion, questions, expertise. We would like to thank the city of charlottesville during question and answer portion we ask you please wait for a microphone to be brought to you so you may be recorded. Stay tuned. And i want to introduce a wonderful panel of authors. Ottet these are some of the top reporters that delve into politics and we have a panel for you today. I want to start with our friend frank sasso, the power of question to open doors, uncover solutions and to spark change, hes a former White House Correspondent and Washington Bureau chief and is now the director of the school of mediao Public Affairs at George Washington university and has interviewed dozens of leaders including five u. S. President s. I believe it might be sick with this one. Wi [laughter] of is also the creator of planet for it. Nd lets give him a round of applause. [applause]. Tallness next, the author of the death of expertise, professionaa of National Security at the the Naval College and adjunct professor at the Harvard Extension School and forme a for u. S. Senate. Also a lifetime jeopardy defeatp champion. [applause] im not im not sure i want to be on a panel with him. I wonder if he won the spelling bee also. Next, michael [inaudible] [laughter] michael is the coauthor of trump revealed an American Journey of ambition, ego, money and power and is a political Investigative Reporter at the Washington Post and co authored biographies of mitt romney, john kerry and is also the author of the flight from monticello how thomas jefferson. At four. Lets give him a big round of applause. Om [applause] and mark is the coauthor of the same book, trump revealed and is the Senior Editor at the Washington Postof thewashingtf something in the air. On germany after the berlin wall. He received Pulitzer Prize priz0 2016, 2014 for reporting on Police Shootings and government surveillance. Lets give the whole panel a round of applause. [applause] c and of course these gentlemens d are authors of these major booka you see before you and they are for sale and you can purchase them after this qanda session that wbut we want to start withh author. Before i do that i forgot to introduce the moderator, apriled ryan, White House Correspondent and Washington Bureau chief, the author of the latest book on blackandwhite. Ive been at the white house for 20 years now covering for president s and wait for that lets go to frank to talk about this great book. The book was born on my experience as a journalist and interviewer and asking questions of all sorts of people. Artists, scientists, Business Leaders and yes, politicians. The recognition into the realization that we asked differently depending on who we are asking and what we are asking about, what the outcome is. I wrote this book because i felt all of us could incorporate into our lives better, sharper, more purposeful questions to become better, more successful, more purposeful partners and spouses and parents and workers and inventors and murderers and citizens. I feel going into this, i felt going int into this that observg the world around us, we are inundated with information neve before in Human History have so many people had access to so much information rapidly. And yet, we have what i call driveby questioning we googled it and get a quick answer then off we go. What we need to do i believe and what i try to lay out in the book in all these cases is to pause and question deeply, purposefully, sometimes really tough, intense and then listen and that is the other part i write about and it is missing in America Today and i know we will get into that. How do we listen and who do we listen to and what is the intent of the listening, what is theet outcome lacks in the book what ive done thi is creativity leag categories of questions, diagnostic questions. Whats going on here, what has gone wrong and whether it is your elbow or health care in america we cannot reasonablyea suggest responses come answers and prescriptions if we dont yet have the diagnosis. Character and the character for that chapter is colin powell. Collin powell had to think strategically for war. And he asked presi they included to have the support of the American People. Have we examined all nonviolent options. Do we know what our strategy is . The Ground Campaign less than hundred hours. Those questions were not asked in the second gulf war. We are still there. And he said in a very revealing moment, you know i am left holding the bag because he knows his performance of the United Nations elsewhere was insufficient and he was not allowed enough voice and asking the questions. Creative questions. Really thinking outside the box. What we ask ourselves and others, transport ourselves with the series of questions into the future. I want to finish because i know Everyone Wants to talk and will come back to this. This is we have categories of questioning and you will have to buy the book to find out. And we will. As a culture, as a society in general is immediate and beyond we need to do a better job of asking. Asking the right questions of the right people and the right construct over time in the fabled followup question i think my students, questions are like grapes. They come in bunches. You do not s1 and then move on. Outfront it was going on. You guys know right . Sk reported. Especially an Investigative Reporter. It is the 10th question down we start to connect. As a culture, as a society as a body politic, we need to start asking more and asserting less. And you need to understand what goes into the listening involved in crossing the divide. And probably one my favorite chapters is what i call bridging questions. My character in this chapter is a fellow by the name of barry. Barry was the Group Therapist for John Hinckley jr. After he shot Ronald Reagan. He now advises the fbi secret service and us marshals on how to interview, not water board, how to interview people that issue addressed to determine if they might actually carry out the threats. It is called threat assessment. The whole methodology of questioning is about bridge building. Rapport building. Michael affirmations. Really . I had not thought of that before. You draw people out sometimes you are very angry and alienated or distressed. There is a lesson in each of these chapters for all of us but i think that one in the context of todays question will be key. How do we use our questions to build bridges to one another so that we can one piece at a time understand those who are very different from us. Thank you. Lets go to tom about death of expertise. I will be brief. But i want to stop and sing and do not represent the navy. For the government or harvard or anyone but myself. One of the questions i get asked is why would i write a book with such an obnoxious title . And you know this very challenging and almost inyourface approach. It was because i was frustrated. I did not start this book and was not born in anything about the election. I started writing something related to eight years ago. And i found that i was trying to figure out how it got to this point where ignorance is not only common but it is prized, is a virtue, something people brag about. I do not know how big the us budget is and that makes me a better person somehow. And the first hand i had this was happening, i noticed that people went from talking to experts skeptically. I certainly do not ever advise people, if youre doctor watson with a big deal just to go ahead, wherever you think. I dont know what it is, hit me up of course not. I want people to be informed. I want them to ask questions, good question. I want them to be participants in their own health, their society, whatever it is. This was born out of more than skepticism about expertise. This was people starting to lecture back to experts as though they were peers. Which i found really remarkable. And the wording you struck the book, that has caused controversy is this is part of an epidemic of narcissism in our society. That is really out of control. Now my background is from early in russia studies. I know i am useful looking but [laughter] actually got my career started during the cold war and i was a russianspeaking kremlin guy. Thats what i did. For a good part of my professional and academic career. I was used to people saying well, you know you guys are going to blow up the planet, i understood that. And then later i found people say that you are a russia expert . Let me explain russia to you. [laughter] everyone you are a journalist . I have something to tell you about journalism. Oh please let my years of expertise, i certainly do not want to interrupt your thoughts. Anna started asking the question why is this happening . Why do people prize or think that they are the peers of experts and experienced professionals . Why do they like to prize ignorance . Why do they respond to facts with, and im sure well get into this, why do they respond to facts with fantasies . And i think in the end, this is where think it goes back to what we will talk about today. Americans have become a people that simply do not want to be told anything they do not want to hear. They do not want to be educated, they want to have someone to blame. They want to do things and never their fault and everything has a magical solution. Experts are always the people that walk in and say none of that is possible. Make us the least popular party, the least popular Christmas Party every time. But i decided to delve into this and we can talk about it later but i do identify some culprits. I think im uncomfortable saying this so close to a university but i think the modern university there is its share of the blame. The media shares some of the blame. Certainly the internet is usually wrong here is some of the blame area but we are here now. This is the situation we are in an i do not know the have a good answer in this book that i have left you a different problem. Thanks tom. Michael, trump revealed. Thank you it is good to be back here. I was here a few years ago. It is always great to return to charlottesville. Her out my career i spent a lot of time covering white house and congress and its only striking that a lot of people think what you give washington is go to press conferences, but with the greatest story. For years covering the white house to have my sympathies april. Click sign in. April is somebody that is a good example as a spokesperson. My interest for a long time was, what does the candidates life say about and predict perhaps what that person would do if they are elected to higher office. Particularly presidency. As a fermented i was coauthor of the boston globe biographies of john kerry. Admit romney and the both of those cases, a lot of what we have been pressing ourselves of the globe turned out to be not the case. I had an editor there that happens to be Marty Behrens and his assignment for john kerry some years ago was, just start over. We bring all of these stories for years and years. Just read those and start over and leave nothing on the table. Which sounds daunting but to me it was a great assignment. Because number one i had a lot of time to start looking into him. And long story short about john kerry, we are not here to talk about him but i want to explain why am interested in writing biographies about president ial candidates. When flipping his ancestry was irish. And he was irish catholic. Turned out none of that was true. His family was jewish, they never lived in ireland, they simply wanted to change the name. And john kerry himself did not know a lot of the story. Have every reason to think spending time researching the thing he had suspicions but knew nothing about this side of the family. Including the fact that his grandfather had committed suicide in a bathroom at the plaza hotel. So there is a lot in there that tells us this is a little bit more complex. What is a family history, what does it tell us about him and his own curiosity about his family background . In the case of mitt romney, when i approached his and told him we want to do the same thing for him and to write about them, a spokesperson says why would you want to write a book about mitt romney . Is already written two books about himself. [laughter] and in death of one of the books theres a 59 point plan about what he wanted to do for the country. But the books say almost nothing about them it probably really is. What actually happened in his career for example, the short story was he was doing wonderful at a company and hate had a very complex history of what happened with each company that he invested in. Not ran actually. Now when it came to donald trump, wait a much shorter time frame. But really it was the same thing. The narrative that Donald Trump Tells about himself. It is pretty simplistic. He has been an incredible dealmaker. He has been very successful, no one has been as successful as he has been. Therefore he would be a great president. What we wanted to do was find out what actually happens. The only way to do that is go stepbystep. So we used a team of reporters in a very short period of time to try and understand what happened. I want to tell you one example and they move on so we can take questions. And say about the genesis of writing the book as well. And one thing we knew was that he had troubles in his career financially. The reality is that in the campaign he did not talk about his failures. And a lot of them were eliminated. Corporate bankruptcy, six corporate bankruptcies. He created one Public Company and that was djt. He made 10 millions of dollars but shareholders not much. So what does that tell us . Look at what happened is in healthcare. People who supported him say how could this have happened . Hes a great dealmaker. If you read the book you will see in several chapters that he wasnt so great sometimes. And he was successful and able to come back with the reality is that, it is far more complicated. What we wanted to do was make sure the end of the day someone was really interested in who donald trump was, there were thousands of stories written in the post but you know those may capture also to think. Here in one hopefully readable compelling narrative, you get the full story. When everything of donald trump, love him or hate him, you have a better understanding we help of understanding what he did in his career. What was successful and what was not successful. And also how it will educate us about what he does today. For me i am often asked if it is surprising how he has performed as president and i see no, because he really is acting as he did as a business person. The problem for him so far has been it is not necessarily applicable to being a president. Even in a republicancontrolled congress. The party itself is at odds in the first place which is why he got elected. Because the party was torn apart. And two other nominees that mightve been the Party Favorites but obviously there is more to it than that. In writing the book i think we are able to tell a fuller story that gives you some sense about what he was like as a business person and how he is performing now as president. Less go to marc fisher. The coauthor of trump revealed. As you might imagine this is not a concept donald trump as much into. The book, we had done a number of books on president ial candidates at the post. And in most cycles we have a consensus, a year or year and and a half in advance to this candidates will likely be. So we could set people off to begin delving into the lives of the candidate. As you recall from last spring, this is not entirely clear. So midmarch rolled around and we said well, we want to do about that we dont know who the candidate is going to be. So at that point the republican choice seemed to be down to donald trump and ted cruz. The end result well, lets go to donald trump and see what happens. So we deal with the publisher on a thursday and a called Donald Trumps press secretary on friday to her know that the following monday we would be announcing that we were doing the book. And so as a courtesy i called her up friday and i said we are doing this biography on mr. Trump and we went to spend as much time as we can to talk about his life. If i can get the whole explanation of the book out, she said, you are tearing off of mr. Trump. And we will not be cooperating with this book. And i said, excuse me . This is a guy who spends virtually all of his waking hours involved with media in one way or another whether it is watching cable news or tokens reported reporters out of the blue. And she said we are not taking part in this. We thought that might well happen. We had a plan for doing the book around him in researching his life and so on. Lo and behold monday morning came around in the first call i got was from hope hicks. And she said told mr. Trump about the fabulous idea. [laughter] and he would love to see you come up to trump towers as often as you would like. He thought it was a great idea. And so, one revelation from that is that hope hicks did not terribly well know the man she was working for. And the other is that it tells us something about donald trump. And that is if youre willing to write about him, whether it is good bad or indifferent, he will be there. And that proves to be the case. He was incredibly gracious with his time and there was more than 25 hours of interviews and of course the three months that we were reporting the book, because we had such a short time to do the book, there was no way that two people could do justice to a persons life in that amount of time. We put 25 reporters on the book. And three or four reporters in each chapter. Sue had reported that went to Atlantic City for six weeks and just spent six weeks diving into the casino gambling records there. And the control commission. And we sent reporters to his ancestral hometowns in germany and scotland and we sent reporters to the foreign capitals where he had business projects and all around the world. And so on through the course of the book. But the core of the book really in some ways is those conversations with him where we learned that if michael said this sort of the main themes in the book which are really i think the good guide to see what transporting what we are seeing every day. He is provocative and will do everything to get on the front page and on broadcast. But the patterns of his life are incredibly predictable. Particularly in the way he deals with the press. He see him everyday bashing the press and the enemy of the people and the Opposition Party and all of that. And then yesterday at 330 congress was supposed to take a vote on healthcare. Bill. At 331 donald trump called bob costa on the cell phone, he picks up the phone and it says blocked number. And higgins is an angry reader. He picks it up and visit and says is the president of the United States were Nothing Better to do at 331 that the Court Reporter and spin the story his way and citizens all done. He is thinking working first thinking about the donald trump. The next episode of the show plate that is not always. Wow [laughter] [applause] question, not for the new cookies. Well, that was news. Now i want to focus on history from yesterday. We talked about yesterday. It was in store for 64 days and i believe. His first major loss, who is donald trump today after what happened yesterday . The effect of the republicans, paul ryan had to pull back and not vote on trump care. Who is donald trump . Hoodie see him as today . The same person he was for the last 50 years. When thing goes well, all credit goes to him. When things go poorly he will find out who that person to blame is and he will destroy them. And so his immediate instinct is lets blame the democrats publicly. Privately he is sending another message as people around him in the white house were discussing how do we deal with this loss . They were talking about we are going to blame paul ryan. Both of the story but not simultaneously. So give anonymously sourced stories about this is all false fall. And you had straight either way is fine with him because it is deflecting the attention from donald trump himself. He was not involved in the policymaking here. He probably didnt know the bill any better than either of us. But he knew the message that he want he was never terribly interested in this bill to begin with and he wanted to do tax reform. And he said to the people around him, told you so. And demand that does not like to admit failure. This is not a winning picture for him. Not only did he lose on healthcare is a person that has built his reputation on that he is a great dealmaker, he can get things done and bring parties together. And here he issued an ultimatum. This is no plan b. Then, at the last second he pulled the bill. In other words he blamed, when you blank in Washington People look you the next time a little different. They know that you will back down. Dont have the same powers. So really at the start he had this travel ban overturned by the court. And on healthcare he lost and he blinked. I think in the end the latter can be more damaging. He could come back with another healthcare plan. Instead he cast blame as mark said in classic trump style. So the democrats have to come to me before obamacare further explodes. But the reality is he needs to reject, he is the president and the leader of his party. His own party is basically torn apart over the issue. And this was a big issue for the party and for himself years of just sitting waiting is not the kind of thing that the president usually does. You have to be out there and proactive. So today President Trump is here on the golf course in virginia supposedly having meetings. All right now. [laughter] seriously because he complained about then president obama on the golf course and now he is on the golf course in their making sure the they made it clear he is having meetings. So what are the questions for us . What should journalists be asking today as he now is moving the ball to tax reform and infrastructure efforts. And still they have yet to have a price tag on them. I do not think donald trump is the same man as he was yesterday. I think hes the damaged president today in ways he was not. This is a very in politics and in my many years of covering the white house and washington, perception matters. Momentum matters. Your ability to pull people in the room and cracked the deal by cajoling, trading, doing business and politics matters. Ronald reagan used to tell the story and before he wants healthcare he brought danny the oval office and full rating, look we both want plasterboard. So go to work. The safest place publicly the client that way. Ill ask you not to talk me, just keep quiet want to do that. You can do that and we can do this. And reagan said okay sure. [laughter] you do that very well. [laughter] they shook hands and they did a deal. Now will they do that and will he deliver . So the question, did donald trump, great leaders ask great questions. And great leaders solicit questions from people that dont agree with them. Did he ask who was the republican party. Did he ask what does the Freedom Caucus really want . The asked what other moderates going to insist on and he asked what will Hospital Association say . That he asked what are doctors saying . The asked what are americans going to say . I am not sure he asked those things. Who is your coalition . How are you going to put together . One of the pieces of this . Are you going to invent the experts . And they say President Trump sort of chairman that is not an economist. Okay this stuff is really complicated. They have to ask a lot of questions and educate yourself and understand this at the nuance level. And that is why think we should be watching as journalists and as citizens. Who is he asking . What is he asking . What lessons have you learned from this . And how does is gets put together to move forward . He doesnt ask questions relaxed and people around him he dont require him to ask questions or dont solicit questions anyway. He believes strongly that you never look back, everything is in the moment, there is no past tense, no regrets and no defeats. So yes, there are people out there who may seem in a different way now. When he understands is that his core, his base, they dont cemented wayne out and the people that were against him were against him his title is president. Yes. That is a very key point. He brought up something that leads into he is president is president of theand he has many people around him who do not have four experiences and areas that are overseen. With that time, we talked about the depth of expertise, how dangerous is that for the democracy and the nation and also, i want to go into the media as well because we are now seeing the line of security. More so now than ever between fact and opinion. I believe that is where some of this big news comes in. There are other ways of fake news but we do not know now if it is back versus opinion. Talking about the issues. Is remember, the president ran against experts. At one point he said the experts are terrible. Who needs experts . What if i didnt have experts, would be so bad . While we are in the process of answering that real time right now. And i think the president and his campaign tapped into this notion was one of ordinary americans that their problems, where they are, their dog is sick, their kid is living in the basement, the car broke down, whatever it is. Some experts somewhere created this world that is harming them and that he is going to put them on their place and he is going to come to washington and tell these experts to sit down and shut up. Thats why he doesnt need on the economists. He does want to support himself with the former military guys. He wanted general medicine secretary of defense, mcmaster as National Security advisor. That is fine by me. That made me sleep a little easier to be honest. But this, leading this charge from the white house against expertise is really just playing down to peoples worst instincts. I was in about almost everything. Again, this kind of overwhelming exorcism that says dont worry. Running a government is not that hard. Anybody can do this. It doesnt, all these guys in washington are just getting fat off of tax money. They dont really know any more than you do. And you know this is a really, this is a notion that somehow you dont need these guys. I think it is already kind of blowing up. In the White House Space because again, i think what was in the bill. I dont think anybody else knew. I think paul ryan will waive his hands and i will get the credit for that and you cannot actually run a functional government that way. So i think this is incredibly dangerous because we are not a democracy. We are a republic. And a republic requires people to divert your elected representatives and advisors. I was one of those desert i was a staff, personal staff to senator. They make decisions all day long and everybody, people here know this time anyone has worked with a politician. They do childcare in the morning, Nuclear Weapons over lunch, environmental policy my dinner, they have to have experts giving their best advice. When people say do not listen to those guys, lets just do everything by populist referendum, then you get outcomes like the one we are seeing now. Where people say, i hate obama care but i really like the Affordable Care act. [laughter] that happened in appalachia, am i correct . Where people did not understand that obamacare was Affordable Care act and but it is happening everywhere figure seeing people across the country. One of the things i opened the book with is people a couple of years ago were asked which we do about ukraine . And people again, not just saying oh gosh im really worried about that. People had really strong opinions. Here, we should engage in military intervention. Which of course course the possibility world war iii. And that we have very strong opinions about ukraine. Where is ukraine . I will finish with this. The average responded that when asked to identify ukraine eye was off by an average response of 1800 miles. And they couldnt even put him on the right continent. Can i comment to tom on Something Else . It seems to me expertise comes in a lot of shapes and sizes. I think this is one of the very interesting challenges that we confront in thinking about our democracy now in the situation we have got with the trump administration. Expertise is also about getting out and living and learning and listening to real people. It is not just the experts from the top. It is also the experts were living and one wonders how much wealth i remember when i interviewed reagan many years ago, has complained about being president of the United States was he felt like the bird in the cage. He couldnt get out and talk to people much. So he sort of intuited things. I think donald trump has been that bird for quite some time in trump tower. You know that knowledge with experts living with healthcare, what does he bring to this as he talked to people, has he sat down to talk to people that have a disabled daughter and a singlefamily parent trying to figure out where the healthcare is going to come from. So he can relate to the question about medicaid other than on a sort of soundbite level which we in the media feed. He has been the man in the tower for decades. And he, because he was a celebrity for so long we have a sense of him as someone, he built this image of himself as a social being. He is actually quite the solitary figure. And we went back and went through all of the old gossip pages in the 1970s and 80s and called all of the women who had been associated publicly with donald trump and some romantic fashion. And said what really happened in those instances and almost to a person they said, as soon as the cameras were turned off he had no further interest. He wanted to go home and watch t. V. All night by himself. And that is a theme throughout Donald Trumps life. He chooses to be alone. And when you see him now in the white house. Already we have the stories of him wandering the white house in the middle of the night by himself. In a bathrobe. Yes thanks for sharing that. It is president ial. As a White House Correspondent you cover all things. He is someone who really has not reached out and wanted to learn much about the people around him. We are seeing it in the way he runs the government. His business, although we think of it as his big sprawling empire, it was a handful of executives up on the 26th for trump tower. He never had more than six or seven people around him. So this is entirely new experience for him. I just want to make a point that some with donald trump is very typical of the people who elected him. As well as many other americans. Part of the reason experts have been pulling back from the public space is because they are finding it impossible to reason with people who believe things are wrong. To save example is talk about electoral college. A lot of people dont like it. And they said what he going to do about the fact that 3 Million People voted illegally . And they say that didnt happen. And then they say your calling me stupid and i hate you. And im saying no, it just didnt happen, it is wrong. Gravity exists, the sky is blue he was speaking of voter fraud. Right, the argument, they dont want those answers. I dont think the president is interested in a dialogue about the answers. The people you argument about the questions are not interested in the answers. And as a result the experts have stepped back and said okay, and we do not have to have this argument anymore in the end of just talking to each other. On everyone ready for questions to raise your hand. We are getting ready to go to questions. Michael, when you think of donald trump, wouldnt you think. This is common sense. He understood the idea of healthcare for his employees. [inaudible] he had a lot of people at the casinos, correct . He had in his Business Career a lot of success. For donald trump, he is looking out as a business person for himself. I asked him a question about the fact that a lot of people were hurt. The employees, contractors. He said when i was going out of business it was all about me. And making sure that i would survive. Instead of document narcissism. He has said basically, it is himself. If i am president he said, we have all of the people. And we talked about the power of gnosticism. Im not sure if you read the book but he talked about the power of gnosticism and i interviewed the author who was they say there are some people that are narcissistic and handle it very well. There gnosticism was about all focused on other people. Other narcissist of focusing on themselves. The connective tissue here that they are so focused one way or the other. For donald trump as a business person, he had to do is to get people out of his way. That is what he did. And that is the defining characteristic. He said he would be different as president. That he would look out for everyone and he campaigned that way and it was very very effective. You have to give them credit. He was at Single Digits in the polls and he nastily convince a lot of people that he would look out for them. And that is one of the things he bases right now with healthcare. He did say im going to protect medicare and medicaid and Social Security and the Democratic Values that are rocksolid with the democratic party. A lot of republicans as well. But he was trying to say look, and looking out for you and say sort of far right Republican Caucus and then agree with some of those factors. So he feels dependent to some degree. Is this a fascinating conversation . Im learning such as sitting here. Im learning more here. Beautiful charlottesville, yes. Yes our first question. I am interested in the role in shaping the media for the last 15 years. I was hoping each of you can. Guest whether that is helped or harmed and how that is with expertise. Helping or harming the news industry will have to get a bunch of authors to come back and have a long conversation. There is a lot that has harmed the news industry. Everything from the collapse of classified ads which were the backbone of print revenue for so long. To the rise of cable television, my alma mater where i come from and certainly more importantly social media. I think that what we got out there now is, in this efficacy some of what tom was talking about. Just so much information. In the power has shifted really from the executive editor in the executive producer to the news consumer in many ways. We dont talk much about that because we want to beat up ourselves and really should. Theres a lot broken in the media right after the issue with blogs, they are very successful, there are many thousands and thousands of them but the issue is who is it . In my book i asked all my characters what is your favorite question . And i have been asked is myself. And my favorite question now is simply how do you know . And to bloggers, who is it . Where they come from . How knowledgeable are they . Is a rant in the rave or is it built on expertise . Quinto based on credentials that it is expertise . Basically my feeling in the world in which we live, let a thousand flowers bloom. The more voices the better. Then that makes your life, our lives as news consumers a lot more complicated. Because how do we tell the flowers from the weeds . There are plenty of weeds that bloom. And so i think that it is my offthecuff response to. I think that, my concern for example, when ted turner puts this on the air, a skeptic said this will never work. There is not enough audience or news to power 24 hour news channel. They may have been right. Because if you watch the cable news channels, plural, there is actually a lot of talking, a lot of talk radio on cable news. Is a little uncomfortable for elizabeth as the first version of whatever brought about expertise was on my blog. But i did it like as therapy. You know i was argument 70 was a plane in russia to me. And i sat down i sort of you know did this kind of primal scream but i am going to say with that said and with the experience of blogs over the past decade im not a fan. And i will tell you why. My students often will come across my blog, actually think it goes dark today. After six years i decided it was enough. Now i write for edited stuff because editors are better at that. Anyway, there was a can we sent your blog . And i would say dont say that there is no control over that thing. The editor is an idiot there are two things i worry about particular about blondes. Principal everyone has an things that their thoughts are just so important. And encourages this notion that i have a big thought and i have to share it with the world. Do you know what folks . Its okay to have thoughts you dont express. [laughter] [applause] in the field feel the need to express them you want to talk after supper practice writing that is why god invented diaries. And theyre not supposed to be public. The other problem with that the other problem and eyesight, did chapter in journalism which was kind of an extra violation. For those restarted knows it violates the prime directive here. Oh my gosh. I was talking to something that was my builder talked about the journalists and about their profession. And i cant say who was but they said to me in interviewing, younger journalists coming to the field and understand that blogging is not journalism. They are not the same thing. Blogging and sitting around his thinking stuff your journalism is the kind of stuff that frank is talking about about very structured questions and so on. And you know, the real fruit of this you know even tiered, donald trump and the collapse of expertise here. But lets remember, it was not that long ago in the Obama Administration have been roads quite happily said you know what . This is practically, the average journalists we deal with is 27 years old and does not know anything. Well, that i would argue, that concert too much blogging, too much talking and not enough reading. Too much blogging, not enough experiencing. And so, blogs, especially detailed to something they can be adjusted or their former expertise where you are you know this is my blog about engine blocks or aviation or whatever it is to other hobbyists. But they did everyone in america should dennis say i have a really important thought, i think it has turned into something bad. Michael. I want to generalize as a they are good or bad i think it really depends on who the person is and what their writing. Im sure there have been many times ive learned things because someone directed me to something that had not thought of. And thats what i want to know if you want someone to challenge my, i dont have a viewpoint as a journalist on an objective reporter but maybe just wasnt thinking of something in a way that would delight me. I think it is extremely important. Theres a new model that the russians imposes recently started running it is democracy dies the editor says a sound like a batman sequel. [laughter] but, it has gotten a lot of people talking. In the point here is that if i can just Say Something in defense of the industry, that yes, i am interpersonally bored by no lets read the column on the left and the one on the right because i know the going to say. I want something that, i want to be challenged with hopefully an interesting discussion that makes me think and obviously thats the president should do as well. Constantly to be challenged in his and her thinking. About what is going on the world. So in our publication, one of the things so heartening to me and a lot of people are down on the industry is that time and again, i do hear from readers about the book and the newspaper and you know thank you for the post is doing good thank you for journalists are doing. Thank you what the times are doing. There are a lot of people after the lesson is that you know we really do need journalism. Ndwe want to support you. Our subscriptionbased has actually gone dramatically up. Because there are people who realize that without an independent newspaper, we are not going to get the information we need. So there are plenty of people, yes it is true they want affirmation. There are millions and millions of people who want information. And they wanted from a source that is not biased and that they trust. And so every day that we go to work we know that our currency is not the dollar but the trust that we earn and we really feel that is important to try and make that our mission. That would provide you with information that you can put faith in. It is not biased. Yes there are plenty of opinionated people that are great. But the main thing to do obviously, the majority of work is reporting. That is something that the person a lot of others are still doing. [applause] i think President Donald Trump is not possible without blogs and social media. Because the way we go about getting information has shifted so dramatically. Majority of the people who come to read stories in the Washington Post come through facebook. A great majority. And they are not reading the Washington Post. They are reading individual stories that their friend recommended to them. And they often do not even know where they have landed. When you go back and survey people where did you learn this or read that . Theyre not where they said got to it from facebook. And so, we lose something there because of the Brand Recognition is not as strong as it once was. Before more important, the readers and communities are losing something because they not understanding the source of it. Theyre not understanding where the information came from and why or whether it should be trusted. So i would defend the 27yearold journalist because we have a lot of in our newsroom and they are among the most aggressive and smart reported that we have. The difference is not generational. The difference is in the intent whether the intent is to inform the public or for the public. So if you turn on any of the cable news channels, whatever your ideology, you will see an enormous difference. Go back and look on youtube and any of the channels from 10 years ago or 15 years ago. They are elements really different. If you go back to 10 or 15 years you will see reported in the field looking at documents, interviewing people, using all of the tools of traditional journalism. If you go to any of us channels daisy big panels of people yammering at each other. That is enormously cheaper to produce. Bring people to studio, have them talk, yell at each other ideally. Every bit of as many people watch and you can do it as a fraction of the cost. Actually had a producer at a network, not the one i was affiliated with, say to me at one point, do not put experts in news packages. Experts dont rate. In other words they dont hold the ratings. And that was a shocking thing to hear. Dont put an expert in a new story. I dont want to be the voice of pessimism here but im going to be. And say that i wish that people were going to the sources looking for informed information. I found in writing this book, the way people use Information Sources on the internet is they go there to confirm their confirmation bias. They go there to find stuff they already believe and they discount the stuff that conflicts with them. And this probably a judgment, i do not even a high landed on the story. It is lucky if they land at the Washington Post. Because they were just like in info wars or in of breitbart or. Fake news. Or some outlet for one of the many minions. Im very concerned about this because people do not discriminate about this and were actually finding, there studies that were done that are continuing to find that people after clicking and blowing their stories and headlines, and then kind of quiz about what they know with the subject, this is going to stand astonishing but after spending enough time an incident clicking through stories there actually dumber. [laughter] i am not making this up, there actually dumber when they finish because they believe that theyve acquired knowledge that they do not have. And a quick example, if you see someone and say go look of fossil fuels. And people say now ive got and i understand. Also i know a lot about dinosaurs. And what it is, they dont do anything in their now resistant to learning anything else. There were soft and having gone to the internet to do this then if they hadnt done anything at all. And if you get your news from facebook . Twitter . How many are on the twitter getting your news . How many of you still pick up a newspaper . Wow [inaudible] what about those of you who watch t. V. , cable or three main networks. Pbs, okay pbs. Okay i like that. Just i was just wanted to know. Do you believe that you are seeing and hearing fake news . [inaudible] fake news. On facebook . Do believe youre getting very fake news . [laughter] thats with the president calls it. Yes, next question. Markey mentioned that donald trump does not really ask questions. I wonder if you can walk us through what briefing would look like and how he would handle that situation. And also if you can chime in on if you are the expert in the room how you would handle someone like, they had an obligation to provide information to. [laughter] i will be leaving now. In one of our interviews with donald trump, this was in june. So it was clear he was going to be the nominee. So there was a very good chance he would become president of the United States. So i said to him, are you preparing you know i know youre out there campaigning but at any time you preparing to be president or are you reading say, biographies of the great president s . And there was a long pause and he said, you know ive always wanted to read but i dont have time. And, so i kind of let him sit in silence and then he said, you know i dont really have time to read books. And i said well, how will you then deal with the kinds of complex issues that come before a president . Has nothing to do question your background or knowledge, but this is the nature of the presidency. Things pop up that you just have no background in. How would you want to get up to speed on those kinds of issues . And he said well i will say one thing, im not going to read any memos. And he told this whole story about how when some guy from wall street came to see him about an investment, some innovative kind of finance in china. And he said, well i dont know anything about that. And the guy from wall street said, no problem, we have a report we had just done. It is 100 pages and i will send it over to you. He said dont bother, i will not read it. So i say well how will you learn about these things . He said my people come in and they can talk to me and in 20 seconds i will know. Okay. Im going to ask another question. I want you to raise your hand. Do you want your president to be well read . Go ahead. To mark , donald trump and why was both that the day i learned it was smart to be shallow was a debbie deep day for me. [laughter] normally shallow is not popular but trump is a wasting i know the criticism is going to be and im going to turn it around. He was and so smart i can absorb complex information on a single sheet of paper. And so he says, use the word shallow which is awkward in that case. But thats the way hes looking at things. He says i dont need all of this information. Im smarter than the generals and i know more than the generals. And he says you know im really smart. Things like that. Thats the way he receives himself. Whether it is correct or not, that is for you all to decide but that is the way he looks at things. He sees himself as being very smart. Able to absorb information quickly and knowing better than people who are experts. Can i jump in for just a moment of history . There are a lot of parallels made with Ronald Reagan. And that Ronald Reagan was not deep reader are not terribly well read and he did not ask a lot of questions and was not especially curious. He surrounded himself with very smart people and those that had a lot of experience in government. I think it may not be a fatal loss for them to say give me memos i want to hear this quickly. Then it will depend on who the president or any leader surrounds himself with to be those advisors and to synthesize the expertise. A very small circle of people, it might be five people, 34 might be family members. And then one of the persons is likely had his being in sync with donald trump. Lester interviewed a bunch of former chiefs of staff to the president. And i said what are you concerned about donald trump . And whatever party they were with, they were concerned that will he be willing to learn about things and understand he does not know everything. Because any president number how smart they are not know everything. Things will pop up. And you have to pick people you can rely upon is and might be wrong. Give me the counterargument and not where youre going to be fired. That is something to your point, that, i dont know if that is a recently covered Ronald Reagan putatively my first assignment as a very young reporter was to interview Ronald Reagan who is running for president. I was a 21 years old. And i asked him a series of questions. And i was surprised at a series of index cards that he basically was reading answers from. But they were consistent. He wasnt just saying his point of view hes just saying a man making sure i get my points right. But as a young reporter always surprised he didnt have the ability to say everything off the top of his head. But he wanted to be consistent. But donald trump, he is a certain viewpoint and what he is going to be persuaded is a fact. He goes back to healthcare. As you learn that the way he thought things would run or not the case. And he is now going to rely on his instinct, on other peoples opinions that may be you change we operate. Enough these are things to look at closely. I was a political staffer. So i was in a situation. I was a political staffer during a working personal advisor on foreign and Defense Affairs to a senior us senator. The late john hines of pennsylvania. There are two approaches. One is, estrange this may sound, there is a tiny amount of wisdom and what donald trump is saying. My boss can be one of these sometimes. They start to ask questions a step step that you want to stop the athey ask questions in such depth that you want them to stop. And you have leaders of natural gas stay with me here, this is a bigger issue. And every staffer has had that moment where the boss starts to drill down and he almost wished that they would just come back with you to the big stuff. Fine. With that said, you asked how do you do this when the boss doesnt want to hear this stuff . Your client is not just your boss. And i say this in the book repeatedly. The client of every expert including journalists, including defense guys, our client is society. And we have to serve our client. The way you serve your client is you tell your boss the truth. Even when it hurts. I really got along with senator hines, got along and have a great relationship. But i can say just before the gulf war, he asked me for my estimate of casualties. Because he was going to have to vote. This was before the vote in 91. And i gave him an estimate that i thought turned out, i was pretty much on the ball. Because of you know what i know about the weaponry and know this wonky expert stuff. And he thought, he was really concerned it was going to be higher and he threw me out of his office in a hail of f bombs. I mean practically followed me out the doors like, the rest of the afternoon i was like that little guy with the thundercloud over my head. But i have to stick to my guns. I said this is my best expert opinion. Whether you want it or not. I came out of the office before 5 oclock that afternoon. He was coming out of the office and i said bad timing here it comes again and he said, already did some checking. I also asked some other people. That is what a responsible boss does. Im not sure this with the president would do but it sounds like he said you are in the ballpark. We need to talk about this again. And we had a very productive conversation. But if youre asking how you do it, you just do it. And just take the risk and you tell the boss what you need to tell them because that is the only way youre serving him and the Larger Client that you serve. This is a great conversation we literally have 10 minutes of questions and answers. I want to do is get to as many people as we can shortening the answers if we can. But this has been great. But i want to ask michael something really quick. Yes, sir no. Is donald trump [laughter] yes, or no. There is no gray area. He is with the American People elected. He is, they elected him to be provocative, to push back against experts and against the system. And the people who supported him have spent 30 years saying over and over again, increasingly loud voices that Neither Party is listening to them and Neither Party reflects was going on in their lives. And they got more and more extreme over those 30 years and who they chose to be the vehicle for that message. Finally they said, you guys are not listening. This is what we are going to do. Michael is smiling really hard. [laughter] our next question. Im wondering if the media hasnt been contributing to the depth of expertise. There are always dueling experts on television. Have the economist is as x and the one he says not x. And the media feel like weve done our job because we represented both we both viewpoints. But they cannot grant basic ideas of science or economics. So why should we trust these guys . I think there are two parts that and i will be really quick. The problem with the media is that there is to advance within much airtime peers all the media becomes segmented into boutique out that the people can go to and never have to really hear anything they dont want to agree with. Even those debates, they are really mock debates. Here they are almost like set up debates. There were about as well as Pro Wrestling actually most of the time. But the other problem, the book i keep putting the blame back where it belongs i think. On the shoulders of the american public. T. V. Is giving people exactly what they want. Which is gladiatorial arguments all day long. I just got to his car producers dont put experts on. We are boring. Were the ones saying like mark just said, well, there is a little gray, people, they are not interested in that. They want Jerry Springer over climate change. And so the networks, driven by you know, what drives us all, they give the people exactly what they want. So yes, the media are responsible but the public is also demanding it. Part of the problem is using overly large categories like the media. So, the media is breitbart. The media is the Washington Post, it is your neighbors Facebook Page and nbc. They are completely Different Things in one lump them together we are buying into when Newt Gingrich was talking about when i spoke with him the other day about the antiintellectualism of the trumpet ministration. His response was, i am happy being antiintellectual. And he went and did a bunch of these big categories. He said you know if the academics and the media in the flesh was in the country, they are all wrong. And thats why we are pushing back. And when you have those big categories is easy to say they are wrong. And as the specific places that you looking at the can have a much more useful distinction. Market hear you with that but i think when something crazy catastrophic happens us when there will be a rush for the experts and will be in i told you so moment. That is the unfortunate case that i hope never happens. I am telling everybody i told you so. But im serious. People are saying i said something catastrophic happens thats what we will see the middle of those in the inner circle and see what happens. And i hope we just dont get to that point. Yes, sir. You for being here today. Im a 23yearold journalist, not 27 yet. But i wanted to ask, the thing that i love being about being a journalist is that you are speaking the truth. Whatever that is. And you dont have a bias, you have an ideology that youre carrying into your work. And kind of after the election, i saw 70 facebook posts from conservatives and liberal people making all these comments about the world and you know, you just go down the middle looking for truth. So how would you tell people who seem to be entrenched in their bubbles to come out of their bubble . Personal we have a conversation about the bubble to the other conversation we need to have is about journalism. Because people dont know what it is and how it works and this notion of fake news in alternative facts is not just largely confusing the public. And it should not be confused. This is about seeking the truth. Journalism is about attribution. It is not a blind allegation. As we attribute the allegations to an individual, a document or something you can put your hands on. It is about editing some accountability, if you screw up you get fired. You are not a blogger without a editor. Does anybody remember maxwell smart, get smart . Nice to have that. And i would take a reporter into the cone of silence when they wanted to go on the air with an unnamed source and said who is it . So there is a process in journalism. And there are consequences for getting it wrong. People get fired if they get it wrong. Or if they plagiarize or anything else. No consequences in the world of fake news. Or very few that i know about. So i think it is one thing. And a book that i recommend, all of month is read this. I recommend it to anyone who cares must understand journalism is an easy read. It is for the elements of journalism and it is a fabulous book. 11 principles of journalism. How to put things together. You are right, the job is a journalist like the job of a judge, does not mean the person might not have an observation or even an opinion about whats going on. But their job is to adjudicate so that both sides, all sides, whatever chandler. ,get fake news out of the way . Is an intentional lie created and constructed and disseminated usually through willing minions on fake websites that have been set up for this goal. It is not a spin. It is not bias, is not a correctable error that is been handled by the roles of accountability. We had to stop using the term fake news. Because it is increasingly being used to me is that they dont like. And that is certainly the way the president uses it. Fake news is anything that happens to penetrate the bubble that is fake news to some of me has been studying the russians for a good part of my career. Big news is intentionally constructed falsehood. I want to get that out because we intend to use it and it is entering vernacular is just stuff, even a spin or bad journalist, shoddy journalism, that is not fake news. Yes maam. [applause] i have a question for michael and marc fisher. In doing your research about donald trump what is the most surprising thing that you learned about him or rather was there something that you uncovered that completely contrasted with his public persona . Well the depth of his financials. We knew that he had corporate bankruptcies but the depth of those were really quite something. We have reported that look so deeply into the six corporate bankruptcies. It was far worse than you might imagine. Yes, he was able to come out of it. But it took an awful lot of extraordinary measures. It was a roller coaster ride. At one time he was in 900 million of debt. That is an awful lot of debt. He had six corporate bankruptcies. I mentioned earlier, the one Public Company he had every time i mention it people shots. Very few people know that story. For the full story what happened. To me that was the most surprising thing. Partly because it was so bad and probably because somehow he was able to recover. And come back and be successful. The way ken was presenting himself as successful. He did the apprentice, which marc knows a lot more about than i do. But without that, he would not have been successful afterwards. Parents of filling 200 million in revenue personally from that show as a producer and so forth. And he is still the producer of it. And he is the author of. And the depths of how unsuccessful he was an been able to recover. In fairness and so i talked about this during the campaign, he realized he was able to on this roller coaster ride and come back. We forget, if you forget that you will dismiss them too early. Go ahead marc. To meet the biggest thing was the depth of his narcissism. He said i want to show you something. Any took us across the room joe conference repaired and there was a table stuck with magazines. Dozens and dozens of magazines all with himself on the cover. And as he brought us into the room, he said, i want to Say Something i just discovered this. [laughter] he brought us in the room and shows the Amazing Things that hes been on the cover of time or in the history of any other president. And he says and i just discovered this, this just appeared here. Its right across from your office, it is four feet outside your office what do you mean you just discovered this . And he just kept repeating that. And with this odd moments, they would happen again and again we just couldnt get off of being so much about himself. Wow. Well, it is 515 everyone. I know, i know, i know. This has been excellent an excellent panel discussion. [applause] questions, expertise and the president , not just, giving you perspective about questioning, about expertise or lack thereof. Number 45, correct . . All right. We want to thank the virginia festival of the books and also we would like to thank the city of charlottesville for providing this venue. Where in the city council chambers. Mckenna ended the day without saying thank you to our authors, frank sesno, the author of tom nichols the author of the depth of expertise. [applause] michael kranish, trump revealed. And marc fisher also the coauthor of trump revealed. [applause] and i am april ryan. April ryan the author of [applause] all of the authors are here to sign books. Once we conclude this portion of the event today. Thank you so much. This is so much fun. I learned something. Im sure you guys learn something. Get your books, and im sure they will answer some questions while signing. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day. [inaudible conversations] you are watching booktv on cspan2. Where top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. All right. Should we go ahead and get started . Sorry about that. Welcome everyone. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you to the staff and folk culture for putting this event on tonight and for cspan being here to record it. Book culture is such a wonderful place. One of my favorite bookstores