Reporter for the Washington Post and i cover immigration and so on international issues. On a very brave person although my very, very first job was at the annapolis evening capital 1974. Now you know,. [laughter] it is all uphill ever since. [laughter] we have very little time this morning. Only 45 minutes so i will speak quickly and i hope everybody else will be brief i will introduce my to gas, the two authors starting on my left, a professor of history and coordinator of latin american studies at Salem State University in massachusetts. Her book undocumented. Is a comprehensive ban provocative look at the history and chefs of immigration policy. And how it has blurred and punished the population it was called they take our jobs and 20 other mess and also the history of cuba and the castro revolution to my left is Alberto Gonzalez former attorney general anne white House Counsel under president george to be bush. In his job he became the highestranking hispanic to hold the federal office for but that was marked by some controversy with executive action with the war on terror but today we will confine our discussion to immigration his book is called a conservative and compassionate approach to Immigration Reform coauthored with David Strange that offers specific prescriptions for improving Immigration Law and policy. A judge gonzalez to previously served as a Supreme Court justice in texas is currently dean of Belmont College school of law in national. Welcome to both. [applause] at first glance a reader might assume these books come from opposite points of view to reach opposite conclusions but they would be wrong on both counts. Both authors grapple with the same fundamental conundrums facing society as it tries to deal with the phenomenon of ilLegal Immigration and both make practical suggestions to how they can be reconciled managed. Those blood dash both authors agree there is excess of hostility toward Illegal Immigrants and both agree some form of broad Immigration Reform is needed. Neither advocates radical Solutions Although they differ with emphasis and degree of a first like to ask both authors to discuss at two of the major issues raised in their books. We will have 30 minutes for the discussion and we will open for questions for about 15 minutes from the audience. Please me brief with your remarks and questions because time is very short. Here is my first question one of the major issues is the fact that undocumented immigrants play critical roles in Many Industries from meatpacking to construction or landscaping or fastfood some argue they take away jobs from americanborn workers as if they were forced to leave United States wages would rise and americans would be attracted to the jobs once again both authors disagree but the offer different explanations in different suggestions how to deal with the undocumented workers a road bike both authors to briefly explain their approach judge gonzalez says stricter enforcement against Illegal Immigrants while at the same time acknowledging many sectors rely heavily on their labor and i would like him to address the apparent contradiction and a professor Aviva Chomsky says it is crucial to the economy but in her case she portrays them as victims of an unjust system that follows the end of the program through the 60s that criminalizes Illegal Immigrants to make them domicile and exploitable workers per car biker to discuss our findings to describe what happened to the of meatpacking industry and the federal raids that followed. If you did each speak for five minutes and judge would you like to start . I will solve this in five minutes. It is a very difficult issue in forum from my perspective the fact that i am hispanic from a border state i think i approach this from a fairly unique perspective in terms of what works and what we need in this country. We are a nation of laws and i believe in the rule of law and i think in the pose 9 11 world it is important to know who is here and why. My perspective is the right policy not only before Border Security but also for our economy. We talk about the polos dash possibility of those undocumented to i was in the white house and we believed it was not possible we could not do it but even if recovery believed it would have been devastating to Certain Industries and a better approach that we talk about in the book with my coauthor David Stranger is to find those who are qualified to put them into a legal status so they can stay here and work and produce and i think by working here to be productive will enhance our economy and creates our economy and additional jobs for american citizens. I think it is very boring for our economy and National Security with a temporary vehicle status is the way to go. From there i have no problems walking into a Government Office to say i need a drivers license part of there in a libel a legal status they should have those privileges that we enjoy but then we could talk does that mean at some point they become american citizens . That has become very politicized the one that could be dealt with in a respectful way that is agreeable to most americans. I am a historian. It is inevitable and answer by talking about history. I think what we see today in the United States is a doable the labor market that the United States has always had some sort of dual labor market. I mean some workers who are protected by the law, a stable and safe and Employment Conditions conditions, benefits, job security, and the security they will work under safe and healthy conditions. The other sector that is called the secondary labor market is the unregulated Informal Sector of the economy that exist outside of the protection of laws that protect most workers. Since the founding of the country or even before we have had this segmented labor market and have maintained with different legal regimes. For the first 100 years the legal regime was slavery. It kept a Significant Group of people who were working in this country outside of the protection while creating a system of Legal Protection for other people working in the country. After slavery was abolished weaver threw out a number of other regimes that kept a secondary sector of the market those who did not enjoy the same protections as others. One way this happened was the new deal labor legislation that exclusively excluded agricultural and Domestic Workers from protections granted to others to organize unions, minimumwage maximum hours, workplace protection employment Insurance Workers compensation, domestic and Agricultural Workers were excluded from that body of legislation and not protected. Guess what . And they were primarily people of color so there has been a racial aspect to how that has functioned in this country. The next up the program 1942 through 1967 a Guest Worker Program that brought mexican workers recruited them to work primarily in agriculture as secondclass workers that did not enjoy the same rights as others and to complain about your working conditions meant he would be fired and deported you were almost the indentured servant because your right depended on you working for this employer. I argue in my book since 1965 the secondary labor market has been maintained primarily through the use of the legal category of undocumented men were they are still deliberately recruited and brought into the United States. With a wink and work in the status as undocumented. With the meatpacking industry is one that has taken full of vintage of this undocumented labor force. It isnt the only one. In a particular case that was referred to air the meet processors in postal iowa iowa, the work force was primarily recruited from villages in guatemala they were primarily indigenous who were brought to the United States and asked to sign some papers and put to work through direct recruitment they were all undocumented. In the first decade of the 21st century there was a series of workplace raids that were highly publicized where large numbers of workers were arrested and deported this happened at the al gore processor plant and one of the many cases we see what happens when undocumented workers are punished by a deportation and forced to leave what happened is the collapse of local economy and industry and devastation for the town where the workers were living and working. So when it serves a role in our economy. I dont think it is a fair system it is based on exploitation but the solution isnt to further victimize and punish those who work in those jobs. Thank you. Just to put a fine point on it, what do you think, why is it for example, in decades in a very stable wellpaid bluecollar job that was unionized and wages were good . That changed radically. With these four aliterate people. But if they were sent back with the beef forced to make those jobs more attractive spin neck in the case of never processors for when the company went bankrupt but we have to look at the transformations with the second half of the 20th century which is a process of the day industrialization not just the meatpacking industry were union jobs have disappeared but it deliberately fight back against the new deal on the part of Corporate America to escape unionization and a labor of legislation any way they can and. Most industries are moving abroad nbc the industrialization has affected not just the meatpacking industry but every industry. So blaming the workers or punishing them is really looking backwards at the problem of feed the industrialization that is day problem we need to look at. Not trying to tear further victimize those are the principal victims. Would you like to add something or everify . One of the problems we have is we do have unscrupulous employers and it seems to me there ought to be tougher employer sanctions. If you want to stop people from hiring undocumented immigrants, take a ceo of a company who is a repeat offender to put them in jail. That will stop them. It is unfair to focus solely on the immigrant but it is true of vast majority provide for themselves and for their families and i appreciate as a dad. But we do have laws in place. We have to find an accommodation and it seems one important component is the 12 million better undocumented already in addition to a the children offered by the parents but to deal with employers and from my perspective and important piece of this. Thank you. I will raise the second question to address before we go to the audience. What should be done permanently about the vast population of 11 to 12 million that are on documented many have lived here with deep roots. They both agree on a basic point that they should not all being deported and some former abroad Immigration Reform is needed but judge gonzales of thursday pragmatic solution that would most likely take the form of limited legalization and proposes to weeks of Immigration Law and policy to better distinguish to immigrants that may be less or more deserving of leniency and relief for girl apply to describe the proposal in detail. But professor Aviva Chomsky describes as the arbitrary labyrinth of the enticement of obstacles which has various unintended consequences and describe various agencies as welcoming and threatening imprisoning and deporting Illegal Immigrants. No wonder theyre confused. She does not advocate a solution our policy but suggests that officials must examine the deeper structural reasons for ilLegal Immigration and i would like to hear her response to the proposal for a limited legalization. I used to work and the world from and the earlier conversation of what is possible today what is possible of politics . Might own view is republicans controlling both houses with the notion of citizenship for the 12 billion better here it just is not doable. On the other hand, we cannot deport them so to be in this country those that qualify, those who dont have a criminal record or pay back taxes or a fine fine, show evidence they are employable, we put them into a vehicle status a legal status. The notion of citizenship has been politicized but there are many with the notion of the law breakers it should be something they cannot support i dont support amnesty this is with disagreement what is amnesty . It is complete forgiveness of a group for transgression but when i am proposing is those to qualify stay here and if Congress Wants to provide a pathway to citizenship then they can do so. That could involve additional fines or whenever. One thing i would not support which i dont think is fair we allow these individuals who come to the country unlawfully a pathway that allows them to become a citizen before those who have been waiting patiently. That is not fair. That is not a right to provide am not opposed to citizenship for those to qualify, but i dont think they should be rewarded the for those to follow the rules. In one final point the vast majority is less concerned ross citizenship than to be in this country with the legal status and not worry about being deported. So i think we can find a solution if we are willing to compromise. This is an issue that touches Foreign Policy and security and families and the essence of who we are as people and in order to reach the Common Ground for the solution everybody has to be at the table and has to compromise nobody will get everything they want prepared by the past to give up something to give it back it is doable i am disappointed and frustrated because of the leadership in washington and today has existed for several years we have not been able to accomplish this but wide reelect hour of leaders . To solve these problems. Let me start by saying there are many things you have just said that i agree with completely. Good or bad . [laughter] in particular i eric greek we need to start with the question of what is possible it is fine in the ivory towers for what is ideal but it is impossible it is not useful but i also agree that we were proposing is probably what is possible and i work with many undocumented people. The truth is while from a philosophical perspective, idealistic perspective, i would say we are a nation of laws but not all laws are fair when they treat them unfairly you rather than sticking to the thought we are a nation of laws if they are not fair then we need to change those and we have done that many times we have said they do not treat People Fairly therefore we need to change them but in addition to be a nation of laws we are a nation of rights and one of the questions again from the philosophical perspective to people have equal rights . And this is where the idea of creating a new status seems problematic because if we are a nation of rights than everybody should have equal rights. We should not create the goal differences were others do not have. We have done that many times. We still do it but our goal if we change the law is to create a system of laws that treats everybody equally. I firmly believe that. However for the undocumented people that i work with, i was a judge gonzalez proposal is going to look very attractive. They are less interested in the philosophical position everybody should have equal rights they are more interested in being able to work and live without fear of being deported this is why i have to separate the two professors from the idealistic and philosophical perspective that says the law should treat everybody equally to the realistic professor cruz says that the judge proposal will fulfil a lot of needs and solve a lot of problems and that is what is realistic. But at the same time i want 2. 0 moving back to the historian, we have comprehensive Immigration Reform in 1986 that created a path to legalization and a path to citizenship for all large majority of those in this country undocumented. , and currently we created a new enforcement regime of employer sanctions that make it illegal to hire People Better and documented to militarize the border. We know the results of those. Some people got access to new vehicle status and the number of undocumented people skyrocketed. Many studies have shown the reason they grew so quickly with the militarization of the border it wasnt a question of where people crossing the border to come in but you were people leaving that once the border became so difficult to cross , and those mexicans in the country chose not to leave. Was previously a system of circular migration turned permanent. We are really running out of time here professor. I will make two quick comments as said judge pointed out in an earlier conversation that current immigration policy already has a number of limited the legalities of millions of people in this country that dont have the right to vote but have the right to be here so it isnt doing anything new but just adding a new category the only thing i wanted 2. 0 is entering the country illegally is not the same as committing a murder is not a criminal defense offense but administrative offense. What do you understand her what part of the illegal dont you understand . It is important 2. 0 as the judge recommends if someone has committed a murder or arrested for drunk driving 20 times while in legal certainly they should be deported if all they have done is cross the border to spend 20 years working but not broken any criminal laws than perhaps a person should be treated differently. We now have exactly 50 minutes open for questions please keep them brief tried to make them question is rather than speeches. Good morning. My question in hasted to with tomorrow and that means those entered legally and illegally but to transition into the role of Senior Citizens we have access to various Retirement Funds when all of these folks in the country down the road with the effect it will have with all those in Senior Citizen status what are we looking at and downtown to udc that will have an impact on overall society. I have no idea what d. C. Is thinking about these days and there is a shortterm and longterm cost depending on how we deal with reform by shortterm to talk about security talk about additional dollars to modify with everify to make it more difficult there are additional shortterm costs but there are longterm cost with the individuals ultimately we allow them to become citizens. That will be offset by their contributions by the tax is they pay by one of the things that is important is politicians and leaders have to level with the American People about the cost which could be very significant. We need to understand as and as a nation we need to come together to decide what is the best way to spend our limited dollars . Well refund programs to continue growing deficits or eliminate spending somewhere else . These are decisions but you do raise a of a good point to focus on the cost. One quick. 1 of the things that a lot of people dont know is many Illegal Immigrants pay Social Security taxes than they will never it get the benefits from them. Is a fact i dont have numbers at my fingertips but may partly answer your questions. With the quick anecdote i was teaching at Pomona College with many undocumented students and one was telling a story about being a student from a very different social background in she said one of the professor said something in class about your parents and their 401k plans and she looked around and said i am my parents 401 k plan they dont have one. So from that i would mention most working in Retirement Homes are in a grand so who will take care of the white people when they get old is new immigrants because we are not replacing our population is replaced from the young immigrants taking care of the old people. Latinamerican immigrants are much less likely to put their old people in Retirement Homes all of the elderly people that i know better undocumented immigrants are taking care of by their children in their homes. My generation had a draft which was a great Americanization Program also civics and American History i have ever the panel how you would americanize ill legal immigrants of any particular status. What do you mean by americanizes . [inaudible] first of all, children of undocumented immigrants whether born in the United States or elsewhere and come to the United States on documented, go to school for i think the americanization process for young people is unquestionable it just happens we dont need to do anything else. But the undocumented immigrants that are adults are extremely eager to learn english and find a way to survive in society. They know english is necessary but the problem is extraordinarily long rete list with most Adult Education and english language programs. So the demand is there to become americanized in terms of cultural competency but their resources are not good ive of america and everything america has done for me but you can love america to still have great pride in your culture. We just have five minutes could each of you comment on obama is executive order to go over four or five pieces of it . And secondly i would like each speaker to give an estimate of the taxes that are paid by immigrants because i dont know those exact numbers. The percentage so security is a large percentage paid by americans and if they pay Social Security taxes they pay all lot. I dont know about the amount or the percentage. I can say in terms of percentages but in amounts they are contributing 13 billion per year and to use Social Security because that number doesnt match the name of who pays those taxes. I am a big proponent of executive power. But there are limits of the execution a president cannot ignore a lot because but she does as discretion in sometimes there are budgetary constraints. The issue that i have about the executive order is it doesnt solve the problem for the majority of the 12 million that are here but only the small percentage with a shortterm fix it has aggravated republicans and has made it more difficult of all longterm comprehensive solution whether or not they acted lawfully it is the question answered in the courts was it lawful . The justice may have said make the argument have the authority to do this i am not sure there are those that will agree with this but i would have also said we just added newt leadership elected in the senate lets give congress one more shot to uc if we can come up with a comprehensive plan. I wonder if you can comment briefly on the whole question of Asylum Seekers . There is the situation between libya and italy that will be more and more disastrous if you could share with some but to have that collateral side effect. That is the big question. But looking emigrants and Asylum Seekers specifically about what makes most sense in terms of Foreign Policy is to look at the structural root cause of the migration and one pattern that creates refugees that is where we need to begin to answer the question. Driven by International Laws and norms i dont think there is a tough category simply because of increased violence with the southern border. Typically if you are targeted based on religion or gender but clearly it is an issue that is reflected in current policy official ed be expanded to take into account the situation that you describe is driven by International Law and congress. Di you have a final question . First of all thank you for urging Senate Leadership to take a vote it was very gracious of you and it was the right thing to do. I appreciate that. Having heard recently the governor of wisconsin was a president ial candidate speaking on not just against ilLegal Immigration of Legal Immigration causes concern and i am just wondering what does the leadership plan to do about this . Today think we can have changed as long as most hispanics will vote democrat . I know Governor Walker but ive not aware of those comments. I would find that surprising and the fact we have so many skilled jobs with skilled workers i find that to be surprising if that is his position that is the one that would solve with the American People. Without knowing more i cannot comment. I will have to see done but the Republican Leadership is doing. [laughter] i will just add Legal Immigration is what bills this country of great majority come here legally either for thorough family or work sponsored and then convert that to permanent status it is controversial in terms of the numbers how many scientists do we let an or lettuce pickers but it is a bedrock of our country. I dont think of it has been controversial i think ilLegal Immigration is the real thing that has to be solved and i am very glad both of these have tackled this in a provocative but provocative way thank you for their comments and for their book. [applause] [inaudible conversations]