[inaudible conversations] in the mountain and pacific time zones. Lillian faderman, why does the struggle at least in your book begin in the 1950s . Guest well, i could have begun even earlier, of course, but the 1950s marked the time when gay people started to organize. Incidentally, we were all called gay at that time, not lgbtq, but gay was sort of the umbrella term, the underground term for all of us. So the first ongoing organization that formed started in 1950s, and that would be [inaudible] society and it was very difficult to get people to join that organization. So i talk about the persecutions in the 1950s and why an organization was necessary. You know, in the 50s all of the churches, gay people were sinners. And to psychiatrists, all gay people were mentally ill. And to the police, all gay people were criminals. And to the federal government, if you had a job that had anything to do with government and slowly facilitiered down even to teachers filtered down even to teachers and social workers, all gay people were subversives and morally corrupt and shouldnt be employed by the government. And so the 1950s was a very rife period, and thats why i start there. Host but there were gay people before 1950s, right . [laughter] guest i think people called themselves gay as early as the late 19th century. But there were people that we would today tribe as homosexual describe as homosexual or transgender or bisexual who wouldnt have used that word for themselves in earlier eras. But, obviously, whats been called homosexuality is a diversity within human capabilities, ask weve always existed and weve always existed. Host you write in your book that the American Military has been hunting for homosexuals since 1919. Guest yes. The first major witch hunt of homosexuals occurred at a naval base in 1919 when Franklin Delano roosevelt was the assistant secretary of the navy. But what i found so interesting in my research is that whenever there was a war going on, the regulations against homosexuals serving were not entirely eradicated, but i think that examiners sort of turned a blind eye to the tact that one was to the fact that one was homosexual. And as soon as wars were over, peak periods of witch hunting of homosexual military people began. This was true, for instance, during world war ii. There were many homosexuals serving in the military. Examine ors actually looked for people who claimed they were homosexual and werent and had claimed they were homosexual as a way of getting out of service. [laughter] but those who truly were homosexual were able to serve, and many of them did serve. Right after the war when fewer military personnel was needed, then the terrible witch hunts began of homosexuals in the military. Host well, lets hear there our callers who were watching the panel, and lets start with cheryl whos calling in from bakersfield be, california. Cheryl, youre on booktv with author lillian failedderman. Guest hi, cheryl. Caller hi. It just breaks my hearts for these kids. I didnt know i had a daughter until she was this her mid 20s. Its so hard for them because theyre so worried that people arent going to love them. Sorry. [laughter] it just makes me so emotional because its so hard for them. Guest your daughter is lesbian, you say . Caller shes transgender. Shes fully transitioned guest oh, transgender, yes. Caller were not conservatives, were not republicans, and she was still so afraid even knowing how open we were. And i just cant imagine what some of these kids go through. Its so hard. Host thank you, cheryl. Guest yes. Thank you, cheryl. Host the next phase guest yes. I think that the transition, the transgender issue has become the big issue now in the struggle for lgbtq civil rights. And i know its difficult, but the fact is that your daughter has allies now. I think that not only people within the lgbt community, but people outside are understanding more and more about gender diversity as well as sexual diversity. And i think whats important is that she find a support group, you find a support group with her, and there are support groups. Im very optimistic about the future. I think that it must be very difficult to be agreemented initially with that greeted initially with that information, but i think there are many, many allies out there. Host why is the q for queer added to the lgbt . Guest you know, its now lgbtq, q for questioning, i for intersex, etc. , it goes on and on. Was we want to be inclusive. When i came out in the 1950s, we were all gay whether we were l or g or b or t or q, whatever. We were all called gay in the underground. But with i think theres more sensitivity now to the fact that were not all alike, that there are transgender people, for instance, who are not homosexual, and we need to recognize and honor that. I think we recognize that bisexual people are very much a part of our movement and our allies in our movement, and that needs to be honored as well. I call my book, though, the gay revolution because there wasnt enough room on the cover to have the lgbtqiqaapp revolution. [laughter] so twrks ay is gay is a term that was an umbrella underground term that was used for all of us, as i say, through much of the 20th century. Host ann is in missouri. Hi, ann. Caller hi. Thank you for taking my question. My question may be controversial. The bible is my guide for how i must live this life. Romans 1 discusses homosexuality and other relationships. How do you look at the bible and its teachings . Thank you. Guest you know, the bible is a very lengthy, rich and often contradictory week. The bible say book. The bible says that you should never wear wool and cotton at the same time. The bible says that you shouldnt mix milk and dairy, ask most christians ignore that part of the bible. I think there are all sorts of ways to understand romans that you quote as well as leviticus, but it seems to me that what the new testament is certainly about is love, and that should be the primary part of the bible that people who call themselves christian Pay Attention to. Host lillian faderman, what was it like to come out in the 1950s . [laughter] guest you know, it was a very difficult time. It was probably the worst time in the 20th century to come out as a gay person. There was absolutely no support in society. Now we have many allies, many straight people who understand that were human beings just like everyone else and who understand that were american citizens and deserve the rights of first class citizenship. That was certainly not the case in the 1950s. I think most of us felt that we had to be secretive, or we would be in trouble. When i was a freshman at ucla in 1958, all of us had to take a battery of tests in which we were asked various questions. And scattered among those questions was a question in all sorts of variations like are you attracted to someone of the same sex . Have you ever kissed anyone of the same sex. Those of us who were gay realized that we had to say no to those questions and, of course, i said no to those questions. I discovered when i was doing research for my book on girls and twilight lovers that the dean of students at ucla had written a 1954 article saying that it was the responsibility of deans of students to ferret out homosexual students and either make them convert to he is prosexuality or heterosexuality or expel them lest they intext other students on infect other students on campus. So there was that kind of witch hunting in the 1950s when i was a young person. Host next call for our guest comes from right here in tucson. Hi, donald. Go right ahead. Caller i would like to state an opinion and have you comment on it. I dont think the Gay Rights Movement would have gotten to where it is today without the Liberation Movement in our society in general. Women started talking about having orgasms, we started talking about bisexuality, etc. Would you comment, please . Host thank you, sir. Guest i think thats an excellent point, thank you. It wasnt only the sexual Liberation Movement though that made the gay Liberation Movement possible. The gay Liberation Movement was born at the end of the 1960s. It was a decade of various minority groupses fighting for their Rights Groups fighting for their rights and other groups questioning authority that gave blind decisions. The 1960s was the period of the black movement, for instance, where africanamericans fought for their rights in a variety of way. It was the rise of the feminist movement which is part of the sexual Liberation Movement, as you point out. It was also the era of the antivietnam war movement where hundreds of thousands of people knew that they could congregate to question the governments policy for having gotten us into a pointless war. And so at the very end of the 1960s, on june 28th, 1969, at the stonewall inn, young gay people decided that they had to fight back. And that began a very militant gay Liberation Movement that has since become much more complex and diverse. Its become a mainstream movement now. But it wouldnt have been possible without, as you say, the sexual Liberation Movement, the black Liberation Movement, the antivietnam movement and other movements as well. Host next call comes from roger in east lake, ohio. Hi, roger. Guest hi, roger. Caller im surprised i got through this quick. The thing that bothers me about this whole transgender watt room thing is it seems bathroom thing is it seems to have started at least on one side by people in washington who kind of decided without knowing what the hecks going on. It seems to be one side is rather subjective. There was a kid i heard about on the news, i think his name was bobby, who wanted the right to dress as a girl when he thought he was a girl. So bobby doesnt though what he is, but his principal has to know what he is, and his employer has to know what he is. Shouldnt there be some kind of law or a court case in which it is decided objectively what the standards are and what the things are rather than letting bobby decide if theres even a crime at all . Host lillian faderman. Guest well, you know, i think that the transgender issue has really exploded because its such a melodramatic issue. Transgender people have been using bathrooms of their choice for decades now. But i think that the right has glommed onto that issue in order to discredit lgbtq people. But think for a minute about what it would be like for a woman to have a very masculine person who was born female but identifies as male and for his whole life has identified as male come into your bathroom. Thats going to bother you. [laughter] it would be much better for a trans man to use the mens room than to use the womens room. And i think the reverse is also true for a trans woman to go into a male bathroom would certainly be disturbing to many men. It would be much better for her to use the womens bathroom. So it seems to he that this is an issue that has been blown way out of proportion, and its an issue that the radical right has glommed onto because they are finding ways to oppose the entire lgbt movement. Host lillian faderman, are we in a sense postgay in this country . Guest i dont think were postgay at present are because it seems to me all of this discrimination is being revisited in the last couple of months. I would have said a few months ago that, yes, maybe we are postgay. Maybe people can simply choose what they want to do without putting a label on their behavior, but i fear that the last couple of months has thrown the entire progress into question. And so i dont think were if we call ourselves postgay, it means we can lay down our arms. We can stop fighting. And i dont think we can stop fighting. Host all right. When we last left your personal life, you were taking tests at ucla. Do you remember when you first became an activistsome. Guest i think i became an activist through the womens movement. I became, first, a feminist, and then i realized that as a gay person, i really needed to Pay Attention to the rights of lesbians that were being denied by the womens movement. So i would say i became an activist in the late 1960s. Host karen is in seattle. Hi, karen. Karen . Guest i cant hear karen. Host karen, were going to have to move on. I i apologize, we cannot hear you. So lets talk to vicki, and vicki is in sandusky, ohio. Youre on with author lillian faderman. Please go ahead. Caller yes, ms. Faderman. I just want to say thank you for the work that you do. Im from sandusky, ohio, i hail from the town mr. Obergefell is from, and im just really so proud that the book that he wrote, love wins, because thats what its going to take in this country. Theres such a systemic problem with regards to discrimination for not just the lgbt community, but race, religion, and i really think that needs to be addressed. Someone had mentioned bible scripture. The bible i live and read teaches love, it teaches forgiveness, understanding, compassion, and most of all the fact that we are not to judge. Theres a big difference between righteous judgment and selfrighteous judgment, and im just so happy that you do this. I personally have not attended church since after 9 11 when i heard from the pulpit that our country was attacked due to all the gays in this country. And be i found that to be so appalling with family members who are or gay sitting right in the i pews. In the pews. And i just, i dont know the answers. Its not something youre going to make somebody to stop being. I just, i would hope for support and open minds, open hearts, and thats really all i have to say. Not a question, but just a comment. Guest thank you so much for that, yes. Thank you, vicki. I think allies like you are so important to the movement. I understand that more than 65 of america now approves of samesex marriage. 63 of america thinks that people should be able to go to the bathroom of their choice, their gender identification. Those numbers come there allies like you, so thank you very much for that. Host carter, idaho falls, idaho. Good afternoon to you. Please go ahead. Caller good afternoon. I personally think that mrs. Faderman is doing the country a disservice by raising this kind of thing. The gay movement started calling itself gay around 1970. She finally did confirm that to somebody here a couple of calls back. Before that they were called homos, and i think today guest we were called gay host well let him finish, lillian. Go ahead, carter. Caller we have males, we have females, and we have home sexuals. And if people would just shut up about their gender and live their lives, wed all be way ahead. But this womans writing a book, and you dont write a book for altruistic reasons, you write a book for money. And thats all i have to say to her. Good afternoon. Host carter . Carter, do you know any gay people . Guest i think we lost carter. Host i think we lost carter. Of lillian faderman, your turn. Guest actually, the underground terms for homosexuals, the term we used to describe ourselves since the late 19th century, early 20th century, was gay. Gay became a term that was used after the stonewall riots in 1969. But i think the question to you, carter, is really a wonderful one. And that is, if you knew gay people, if you knew lgbtq people personally, you would realize how diverse we are. The term homosexual applies to some of us, but there are trans people, for instance, and bisexual people who are within our movement and genderfluid people who are within our movement. I think you do a disservice to humanity by trying to put everyone into one little basket. There are men, there are women and there are homosexuals, and thats not the way human beings work. Host donna, bronx, new york. Hi, donna. Youre on the air. Caller hi. Hi, lillian. Im sad to say that i did not read your book yet, but i definitely am going to pick it up. Im a lesbian, im in hi 50s. I in my 50s. I came out when i was 16 years old, in the middle 70s. It was the first group that i i remember going to was called the Lesbian Feminist liberation on 13th street down in greenwich village. Guest yes. Caller i dont know if you knew a woman by the name of betty santoro, she was a big, big activist and rallied in washington. Anyway, im calling because i have wronged to this group belonged to this group up in white plains, its an lgbtq group, and the landlord decided after nine years to sell the place. And so the rent was 1,000 a month, ask we were doing we had facilitators that ran groups of people that needed, coming out groups, support groups. We had drumming circles, we had dances, fundraisers, and now were finding it very, very hard to find a place to just rent or just go half with someone on to try and continue this with, for the lesbian community, and i was wondering if you could recommend any places that hay that may do that. Guest im not a new yorker, im from california, but i, i think you have a sympathetic mayor and a sympathetic city council, and i would appeal to them. I would tell that story to them and, hopefully, yet some hope help from them. Host lillian faderman, during the campaign or after the election, donald trump said that he was the first president to come in supporting gay rights, gay marriage, etc. Guest yes, except that his support has been very weak. He chose a Vice President who was the governor of indiana who was extremely opposed to lgbt rights. He chose an attorney general, jeff sessions, who has been opposed to [inaudible] he chose as the head of housing and urban development someone who compared us to people who practice bestiality. And so regardless of what donald trump may think personally, he has chosen people who are enemies of equality for lgbt people. Host lets hear from gypsy in elk horn city, kentucky. Good afternoon, gypsy, youre on booktv. Caller good afternoon, peter. And good afternoon, lillian faderman. Im loathe to say i havent read your book, im sorry, but i expect i will. Im calling about a little piece of history in atlanta, georgia. In 1976, tall, fall, until te fall of ooh 78, my lover and i were caretakers for the atlanta feminist alliance. Alpha house. I think it was founded by margo george, best i can remember. Do you have any current information about that alliance . Guest im afraid host well get an answer in just a second. Gypsy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to elk horn city, kentucky . Caller well, i grew up i was born in west virginia, wyoming county, near the nowfamous oceana from which the documentary oceana was filmed. Ive fumbled my way through life; 1960, gosh, im just going along about myself. Oh, my. My point was, you live in a rural area and youre identified as a lesbian. What has that life been like for you . Well, im out to the people who know me, but i dont know very many people in this area. I didnt grow up here. I just grew up a county away in southwest virginia. Thank you for your time and for your story. Lillian faderman. I ton know about the feminist groups you talk about but i spoke a couple of times at a womans book store in atlantay i heard recently the book store is still going. So, i think you should try to contact them, and i bet theyll be able to tell you about what happened to that group. Whats another resource for somebody like gypsy in elk horne elk horn city. There are so many resources online wonderful books out about lgbt people. I think all one needs to do is google gay or lesbian or lgbtq and the particular area and youll fine dozens of thing