Where he would willingly consider killing people or in this case blowing up an entire school. No matter how hard i try to understand these factors together and these interlocking circle, that is still a question that is very hard for me to understand and accept. There is no way i can justify this, yes he experienced a toxic culture at the school, yes he had an influential friend, everything will take us a little closer to understanding but i dont think ill ever fully understand how it could happen. Thats why so earnestly wanted to donate funds from the book to research and to support programs and prevention programs. I think we have many answers we need to find. You mentioned your sons friend, eric harris and some believe it was the dynamic between the two of them that contributed to the tragedy, what are your thoughts on that . I believe that it is true, i believe it is highly likely. I had quite a few experts i talked with did support and substantiate that belief. I believe that for whatever reason, reasons i may not understand my lifetime, there was a chemistry between them. There is an interdependence. Somehow dylan was willing to go along with the plan to blow up the school, to kill people, i dont know what it wasnt dylan that made him able to do that, but i believe the impact of that friendship was a significant factor. Have you spoken to erics parents at all . Have they talked about the book with you at all . When i get to ask questions about the harrises or even about my own family i usually try to back off from that question a little bit because individuals who lose family members and murder, suicides, from what i have met, most often do not want to be in the limelight. They do not want to be recognized, they do not want to be talked about. It is too difficult for them even to accept what they did and face what they did and to be reminded over and over again. So i am going to protect the privacy of individuals who had been associated with this and simply say that yes i have been in contact with them from time to time. , when you experience something and have to live with the aftermath . Certainly, what happened in the tragedy, the circles, it keeps keeps widening about how it affected people adversely. I know one of them did require hospitalization. So yes, it was terrifying for his friends. In many ways, we were just complete disbelief and unable to put the pieces together that made sense. I would say to each individual, and it was true of all the victims of this tragedy, every one of them, there is no victims response. Of you. Each and everyone of us is making whatever meaning we can building whatever construct we can to live with this. One thing you talk about in the book is the fact that people look for someone to blame. And you address how you came to understand the belief that it didnt affect you the way that it in the beginning, overtime he worked through some of that. I dont think ill ever work through it completely. You hear some things that are sad and its difficult for us as human beings, look at the example of road rage and how it controls how we behave. I dont think it will ever be something that is easy and comfortable. I certainly understand the need to feel anger. A lot of the early reporting on the tragedy, the reports were false. There was miss information. They would say they were nazis or graphics or whatever the reason. They wanted to publicly blame and have someone to be held accountable. Im sorry i forgot the second half your question. I think you may have answered it. You said you hadnt quite worked through it but you will. Right, and the one other thing i was going to say is that when people do horrible things and when we see Something Like that in them news, all of us believe it could never happen to us. Its easy to believe that the other persons family is very different from ours. That is a hard thing for people to deal with. I understand how it makes people feel better to believe that our family was evil, that dylan was not loved, that i was in the club full, selfcentered mother. That helps people feel that Something Like that could never happen to them. You talk in the book about how those things arent true. You wanna to talk a little bit about dylans growing up and your family life . Right, certainly every family has imperfections. Ours did too. We had struggles but they basically i believe that was a good mother. I love my children dearly. I had been a teacher so i was always thrilled, i think thats one of the things that thrilled me most about dylan was his brilliant little mind. He was precocious and playful and loving. It seemed to me as parents that every decision we made was to do what was in the best interest of our children. Certainly we talked them right from wrong. I used every moment that i could find to teach morality and goodness in treating other people as we would want to be treated. I honestly dont believe that the environmental piece of what went on in this family was a causal factor for his being involved in the tragedy. I did a lot of searching. I was in therapy and i would say i wish i said this and i wish id done this in my therapist would remind me, you did that, you said that. Over time i began to try to forgive myself for being the mother and not knowing what dylan had experience. I still struggle with that. You talk in the book about how dylan was a perfectionist and got very upset when things didnt go quite the way he expected them to go and you say you should have or, thinking back on it, this is important to you. Can you talk a little bit little bit about that and how that affected your later views looking back on the tragedy . Ill and was a gifted child. He was in a gifted program. He was so bright and learned things so quickly. He had a very significant capability to stick with something until it was completed and he experienced a lot of frustration around that. I can still remember, hearing him banging on his keyboard on his computer in his room because he was a beta test or for some microsoft product. He would get impatient and frustrated but he wouldnt quit. That was one of the things i treasured most about him. When he became an adolescent and started having a little trouble in school and things werent coming quite so easily to him, i saw that as a good thing. I saw that as a lesson in life where he was going to have to loosen up a little bit, except that life is a perfect and you cant always make it be the way you want it to be. When he would be unhappy with a particular incident or something that had happened, i didnt see this as a negative experience in his life. I saw it as something that indicated he was growing and becoming an adult because we have to go through negative experiences in order to mature. Later, as time went on, you saw signs that you thought were much more troubling, looking back on his growth as an adolescent. Can you talk a little bit more about how you changed your views of how you saw that as positive two things that should have concerned you . I mentioned earlier, one of the things that was probably in indicator of something gone terribly wrong was in his junior year when he had a spell of trouble and during that time, he got in trouble at school for hacking into the schools Computer System because he was one of the computer technicians at the school, for getting arrested for stealing something and for scratching the locker. Those are the three things that occurred. As i said, i was concerned, i wanted to know should he see a counselor or what does this mean , and we had no other indicators that something was strongly amiss. We took his word for it and he promised that he would do better and he did. That was the shocking thing. It was how hard he worked to get his life on track and get into a good college. One of the other things that occurred at the very end of his life, within a few weeks of his death, when we went to a School Conference because a teacher indicated that his grades in his english class were slipping and also his grades in calculus were slipping. At that time the math teacher said he is sleeping in class. It was a morning class and we knew how busy he was and he had also been accepted at the university of his choice. We thought this was sort of senioritis of this behavior that seniors sometimes get once they get accepted at college they slack off. We thought that was what it was. Then the english teacher told us he had written a disturbing teacher and we asked what does this mean, what should we do, is this something we should be concerned about and she said i will ask the School Counselor. If you think theres a problem he will get back to. I never saw the paper. It was something that slipped my mind because i didnt see it as a significant issue. After his death, i saw it was a very dark and disturbing paper. At that time, by and had never neither the parents nor the School Counselor looked at the issue of a violent paper is something that was indicative of the possibility of some real deterioration in thinking. Those are some of the begrudge that i have. Thats why ive come forth and said to people if you have anything in your life that is a concern, never assume that its just teenage angst. It could be something quite serious. As an advocate, we tell people to check out and get help early but we know there are lots of barriers to that, to earlier intervention. You talk a little bit about those barriers to getting the Health Treatment and getting the care that you need. You talk about the counselor that didnt follow up with you. Are there other barriers out there to people getting the right Mental Health care . I think there are all kinds of barriers. They are planted within all the different systems that we interact with. For example, the criminal Justice System, simply by being arrested he was at a greater risk of suicide. The system was not aware of that, we were not aware of that and that would have been a significant point of counseling where someone could have said to us, you take a kid like dylan and he gets in trouble in his life gets out of control, that is a dangerous time for that family in that child. We werent aware of that. School systems, same thing. There are barriers there. Very few schools have Suicide Prevention programs and protocol or threat assessment teams where they can put these pieces together and say there was an arrest, there was a School Discipline issue, lets get a closer look at this child. There are financial issues, counselors arent allowed to counsel very often. They are to work on schedules and work on college entrance. They are not there to serve the psychological needs of the student. So thats a barrier. To me, one of the greatest barriers, especially working with youth is that perception about counseling and they dont want to go and they dont want to get help. I know more individuals than i can count who are struggling with family members who have issues with Mental Health addiction and the family member, through their own perception of what that service means refuses to get help. I think thats one of our most challenging barriers. You talking your book, you mentioned the criminal Justice System and you talk about the Police Officers and their assistance to you and also we know the trauma that some of these Police Officers also encounter when there is a tragedy. Can you talk about some of the Police Officers that you encountered in any insight you have into that topic . My experience with Law Enforcement is certainly a very unusual one. I cant draw any blanket conclusions. The day that columbine, the tragedy happened, everyone was out of their comfort zone. Nobody knew what was happening. The situation was that our home, a swat team came, bomb squad came, detectives came and they were all from different districts, so it was an allout bulletin from across the state to come help. From the police perspective, im sure sure it was a nightmare for them. But we fast forward 17 years and i think whats happening now, there was was a greater recognition that anyone in Law Enforcement who is going to intervene in this situation, and this involved most of them, they should be cit trained. They should have crisis intervention training. Very often, incidents that are lethal can be handled and brought down to a level of safety because of that training. Thats one thing that i certainly recommend and hope this will happen more and i continue to hope that individuals in professions that have high stress rates and high suicide rates will begin to understand how the mind functions when it is traumatized there is a need for better selfcare. Absolutely. I think some of the police need that selfcare as well because of the trauma. Maybe you can talk about the trauma to the community and how that affected people. One of the peculiar things about this experience from my perspective was that we were isolated. Our family, we were were the pariahs. We were perceived to be, by many , collaborators or perpetrators. We were very much cut off from the post columbines schulte of the community responded. We were living in our own isolation of fear. The magnitude of the trauma for the community is something i cannot even begin to comprehend or to explain. I only know that every time i walked into a room or Doctors Office i didnt want anyone to know who i was. I was afraid of even being associated with the tragedy or with dylan. To some degree it exists today still and thats why it was so difficult to decide to publish this book. I continue to meet people who were in the school at the time who were in the room where the teacher died and the trauma that they have lives on. They are still experiencing ptsd from that day, some people sustained injuries in these injuries continue to limit their life, costing them great pain and expense and hardship. Its too huge for me to even begin to comprehend. Can you talk about yourself and your own journey and kind of where you are now in light of what you experienced, the journey that youve gone through, where are you today . . Can you talk a little bit about where you are now . I tend to believe that the dylan that was there that day and died that day because of some kind of pathology. Because of that pathology, he was a victim of the tragedy just as all the others were victims of the tragedy. I believe this is also true for eric. Some people find that a very difficult thing to hear. They dont want to hear it. I think they feel that im making an excuse for my son but it is what i have come to believe after all the research i have done. I believe when we lose a child, in particular, it is a very difficult kind of grief. I dont think as moms, we really ever get over it or get past it. I have found my own construct that something may dylan very ill and very vulnerable and that contributed to his death just as if he had had cancer that was undiagnosed or a heart condition or a genetic disorder and that is the way i process it in my mind. That is the way that i live my life, that something happened to my son, he became very ill and because of that, because of that illness or whatever was happening in his mind, he died and before he died, he killed. That is just part of what i try to live with and to learn from. I think one of the major things that has changed in my life is that i have almost no judgment. I dont judge other people. I seem to have a belief system that horrible things happen to many of us. Many of us love people who hurt themselves or hurt other people. Our work is to continue to love them and to continue to love ourselves and care for ourselves. I know you have gone on to do advocacy in the area of brain health. You want to talk a little bit about that and why you use the Term Brain Health and why that advocacy is important to . One of the experts that i interviewed use the Term Brain Health and i thought it was a very wise thing to do and that is because when we use the term Mental Health, someone has a mental illness, we dont, for most people, certainly not for you, but for the general public, people dont really understand what that means. They dont understand the range of thoughts and behaviors and perceptions that can occur because of that. When we think of mental illness, most of us think of something that is an intangible difference that people have. If we think of a brain malfunction as a physiological thing that is happening when someone begins to have persistent thoughts of suicide, that is a symptom of something malfunctioning in ones mind. Its more likely than not has to do with the output of serotonin and the ability of the brain of receptors to receive the serotonin and process it. I believe it helps people to understand and to think about when our thoughts are in control of us and our thoughts are selfdestructive, when they are terrifying, when they are confused, something is going wrong physiologically. It is not a character flaw. It is not because we are not a good person or we dont try hard enough, its because somethings wrong. I think that the brain illness or brain dysfunction better describes what is occurring. You talked in the book about how we really have a Public Health crisis when it comes to suicide. You give some of those statistics. Can you talk a little bit more about that. You say people tend to focus on other conditions, but when looking at adolescence and young people, we really need to think about suicide. Can you talk about why that was important for you to point out and how you want people to look at those issues . One of the things that i learned from all of this, ive talked about this and its the rarity of what happened in dylans case. A double suicide murder suicide mass shooting is a very rare incident. The chances of that happening are very limited, but the chances that someone we love may be feeling suicidal and having thoughts of suicide or making a plan of how they would like to die, and i dont like to use the word like to die, they just just want to make the pain stop. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for use in this country, i believe its ten to 34. The number of High School Kids who have thought about suicide or done something to harm their bodies or who have had a plan at one point, the numbers are astounding. Its a very significant problem. I believe that weve got to start putting some money into research on Suicide Prevention because it is the second leading cause of death. I dont generally get into a topic of gun safety, but i will mention in the state of colorado, 76 of 76 of our death by firearms are suicide. A lot of discussion has to occur about how does one recognize, in himself or herself when one is at risk as to mark when is it a good idea to limit our access to firearms. A lot of people have them but they are at significant risk when their brain health is impaired. They are at significant risk of using a gun to harm themselves and these are the kinds of discussion that i want people to have to be aware that our thoughts can become lethal if we do not get treatment and if we do not engage in some kind of prevention. I know thats the main reason why you decided to speak out, and i know youve spoken with many families. Do you want to talk a little bit about the response to the book and what youve heard from people now that the book has been published i believe there are many people who have been upset by the book, certainly its an upsetting topic and a lot of people dont want to relive this tragedy one more time. For the most part, the feedback that i have gotten has been very positive. One of the things that has occurred that has been very gratifying for me is that many people think me for writing the book which i appreciate deeply. Many people have said to me, i think every parent, especially every parent of a teen or a tween should read this book. My hope is that by reading the book, they wont lose a child as i did. That they will see that something can be terribly wrong when it is and not just write it off. The fact that people are reading it and are talking about it is very ratifying. Its what i hoped to accomplish. I know we appreciate the time and energy you put in this book and particularly the conversations about how people should be talking with their teens, asking the questions you talked about before, asking what is causing pain and getting out some of these issues with young people because of the risks here. I think its really important what youve done and appreciate the time and energy you have put into this and putting yourself out there with the writing of this book. I know, as you say, some people always find a criticism or difficulty in hearing about these topics. Is there anything that we havent covered that you want to talk about or make sure people know in terms of your work and your journey or messages you want people have . The only thing i will add is that Much Research needs to be done, much support needs to go on and i encourage people to support Mental Health organizations, Suicide Prevention prevention organizations, Research Organizations because there is so much yet that we need to know to make us all safer and make us all have more filling and productive lives. I think talking with what people is one step, but i think helping the nonprofits out there is something that all of us can do. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. When i tune into it on the weekends, usually its authors sharing about their new releases. Watching the nonfiction authors on book tv is the best television for me. They can have a long conversation and delve into their subject. They bring you author after author after author. Its highlighting the work of fascinating people. I love book tv and im a cspan fan. Heres a look at some authors recently featured on book tv after words. Its our weekly Author Interview program. Welcome rick called her version of emilys list. They were to recruit pro prochoice women to office. Mary Frances Berry explore the history of voter fraud and suppression. In the coming weeks on after words, aol cofounder will discuss how emerging technologies will research shape the internet. Peter marx will tell us about the career of the late ceo who turn the company around during the height of the financial crisis. Also coming up, a fellow at the rind institute will argue that measures to alleviate income inequality actually end up hurting low income americans. Also this weekend sue klee bolt, mother of diligently bold will discuss Mental Health and recall how she dealt with the tragedy. In the beginning i will certainly feeling a victim of the tragedy. I was bewildered and didnt understand what had happened or why. I couldnt make sense of any of it. I was humiliated and grief stricken. I was terrified and as time went by and i began to understand a little bit about how he died, a little bit about his own suicidality, i think i became more of a survivor. I identified with other survivors of loss from tragedies or suicides of murder suicides and i became a little more active, a little more interested in all of our welfare together. After words airs every saturday and sunday. You can watch all previous programs on our website, book tv. Org. Up next on book tv, they talk talk about the life of john birch who is a namesake of the john birch society. Good afternoon everyone. Wed like to get started. My name is eric, im from George Washington university and im the cochair of the seminar along with my colleague chris of the history and Public Policy program here at the Woodrow Wilson center. The washington history seminar, as many, many of you know, is a joint product of the Woodrow Wilson center and to the National History center. Weve now been going for a good number of years. As we do every week, we like to thank the people who make it possible behind the scenes