Programs. Twitter. Com booktv. Host well, joining us now on our outdoor set is harvarddoo professor Randall Kennedy. Hes been a frequent guest on booktv and on cspan and his most recent book which came out last year which hes talking about could be here in miami poor discrimination. Race, affirmative action, and the law professor kennedy, has a affirmative action been successful in this country . I think its been very successful over the past several decades. It has helped with the desegregation of American Life, particularly in Higher Education and in employment. And i think that it has done a very good job in a variety of ways. It is help to rectify past injustice. It is help to bring into important discussions, people have been excluded and, therefore, enriched or public debate and our learning in various schools. So i think it has been a success. Thats certain what our gym about. Host where did you come up with the title . Guest it was the last thing that was part of this project. I did not have a working title. The book at to be published. I needed a title. And actually the person who came up with the title was my editor. I had come up with a couple of titles. They were pretty flat. He came up with and he said what about for discrimination . Usually people use the word discrimination it is a bad thing, but it grew on me and ive come to like it. Host is their stigma attached to affirmative action . Guest yes. Affirmative action with many social policies house costs and certain one cost of affirmative action is the idea that its beneficiaries or people who come even if theyre not beneficiaries, if you thought to be beneficiaries, i think many people think that well soandso is a beneficiary of affirmative action. They probably are a little less good than people who did not have affirmative action. Because affirmative action means giving people a helping hand a boost. If you need a helping hand, if you need a boost, that suggest maybe are not as good as others. So yes there is a stigma cost. Host Randall Kennedy harvard law is our guest for the next half hour or so. It would like to call into talk to him about some issues we started talking about, 202 5853890. 282 5853891. Dial in and well get your calls as quickly as possible. Professor, are you a recipient of affirmative action . Guest yes. I am an affirmative action baby. I was told by affirmative action in terms of my education. One doesnt know for sure but i feel virtually certain that affirmative action helped enable me to go to yale law school. I think that affirmative action will likely help me secure a job at harvard law school. I was a very fine student. Ive been very hardworking. I think that i think that my record speaks for itself and that ive been able to be a real contributor to legal academia. But have i been helped like so many other africanamericans over the past 30 years in elite institutions . Have ive been helped by affirmative action . Yes. Host wended affirmative action begin . Guest , it all depends on how you define a affirmative action. For instance, i mean there is a way of saying affirmative action has been part of American Life since the civil war. The nations First Federal civil rights statute Civil Rights Act of 1866 was vetoed by the president of the United StatesAndrew Johnson the successor to abraham lincoln. And Andrew Johnson vetoed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 because he said it would give quote discriminating texture and textured africanamericans. He thought he was giving an illicit, im just helping hand to africanamericans because it allowed africanamericans to be citizens of the United States immediately. He thought that was a sort of illicit reverse discrimination. He thought it was reverse discrimination for federal law to say that africanamericans in fact all people, had to have the same rights to enter into contracts and own property on the same basis as white people. He viewed that as a type of quote of affirmative action. People nowadays dont view that as affirmative action. They view that as antidiscrimination law. The affirmative action were used to, the affirmative action i mainly talk about in my book mainly came about in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The reason why it came about is because of a widespread feeling that antidiscrimination laws alone would not be enough to quickly desegregate American Life. Host what about court cases . Guest there have been many court cases and will there will be many more. Just this past week and antiaffirmative Action Organization filed a court case against my university, Harvard University, asserting that Harvard University was discriminating against Asian Americans in particular. There was a court case filed by the university of North Carolina claiming that their Asian Americans and whites were being discriminated against. So affirmative action, its been controversial since the late 1960s and remains controversial to they. Host what was the pocky taste . Guest it was the first time that the Supreme Court of the United States fully grappled with affirmative action. It was the early 70s. In fact, it was 1975 or 1976 as i recall. What happens in that case was it was a class of compromise. It was a case that involved are from an action at the university of californiadavis medical school. This medical school set aside a certain number of places, i think it was 16 places, for disadvantaged minority, racial minorities. What the Supreme Court said was that it was unconstitutional for a Public Institution of Higher Education to set aside a certain number of places. They said that is to quota like so they struck that down. The Supreme Court also said that universities could take race into account along with other things in determining who they were going to admit to these educational institutions. By the way that was a very interesting case because it really came down to just one justice. It was a split case and one justice, lewis powell was this one justice who said that you cannot have quotas but you can take race into account as one of many factors. And by the way, thats the law of bakke is still the reigning law of the Supreme Court. It might change a bakke still holds. Host do we have an active what happened to alan bakke country yes, we do. He went to medical school and hes become a doctor. From what i can tell he has led a painful, productive life. Host al franken to be in discussions about race and the law with your students at harvard . Guest i am very frank. How frank lex in all of my books i have attempted to be frank. I take my position. I take my position. I argue my position strongly. I am proaffirmative action, for instance. But in my book i also talk about the costs. In fact, so my friends give a little get a little bit miffed with me because they think a give away too much. They think maybe i talk about the cost too much but i think people are smart. I dont think its useful to try to hide the ball. I take a position. I believe information is my friend. I want people who have information. I want people to have all the argument. I think when people of all the arguments, they will when armed with all the arguments, embrace my position. I am like that in class. I am like that when i write. Host uk met with a book a couple years ago the nword. What was the reaction to that . Guest the name of the book was strange career troublesome career. It is a book that sold more copies to all of my other books combined. I got a lot of criticism from that book turn one from africanamericans whites, liberals conservatives tried to liberals concerns, white, blacks asianamericans. There were people, i dont want to make it seem like everybody who disliked the book. There were people who liked the book but it did get a lot of criticism. I figure a number of people who did not like the title for instance. Didnt like the fact i spell out the word. And they didnt like some of the positions i took but there again i thought, you know, i said what i believed and i put all the arguments out there. A person is one thing i do when i write my book. I want to arm a person who disagrees with me. I want wanted person who disagrees with me to read my book and see all of his or her arguments. So nobody can read a book of mine and say well, kennedy didnt bring up this argument against this position. I bring up all the arguments. Host the Washington Post did a series on the nword. Guest i saw that. Host hasnt been destigmatize in a sense . Guest thats a good argument because there are some people who say that one way of dealing with this word is to make a big deal of it. Dont make a big deal of it people just use it, let it roll off your back. It will lose its status and difference lose its status able to some of its attraction and it would lose its ability to hurt. America is so large that i think its taboo in certain circles for instance, you will never hear any politician using this word under any circumstances. If you had a serious politician on our show right now, they would not repeat the name of my book. They would not even repeated. They would not even say quote this guy Randall Kennedy wrote a book called for you to say that word is to discredit yourself. If we go to other realms, if were talking about comedy, popular culture, people do use the word. So its a word that is complicated you can use it in some forms, but even in those the forms you take a risk. I think thats as it should be frankly. I think the nword is a word that has been used and it is still used to hurt people. I think whenever you use that word, you should be using it advisedly. You should be in a sense you should be using this word in full recognition that a lot of people find it hurtful. Host Randall Kennedy harvard law is our guest your body and rock island illinois, you are the first caller. Caller thank you for taking my call. I do want to make the comment discrimination does not only include race and religion but also life experiences. There is a great need for educators who are we tired to dedicate themselves to volunteer to educate those incarcerated with the basics of reading and math. Those who have been incarcerated are, even after release, discriminated for the rest of their lives. And i wanted to ask mr. Kennedy what his thoughts were on that . I will take my answer off the call. Guest i think you make an excellent point, the fact of the matter is that the United States of america incarcerates a large percentage of its u. Industrialized democracy. That is a shame. It is a disgrace. It is really an open scandal. And we need to do something about that. I would totally embrace the comment that we need you as much as we can first of all to change our policies we dont incarcerate so many people. And secondly for those people have been incarcerated i think we do over stigmatize them. We do hurt their ability to come out of prison and get on with the gainful, productive life. I wholeheartedly embrace the sentiment of that collect. Host gelled in florida. Caller good morning. I have a question for professor kennedy. Some of us look towards affirmative action us to blacks entering university circuit. I happened to be one who graduated from a Major University, white Major University in the state of ohio. This was before affirmative action. Far too many times there is nothing said about those of us who were participants in the collegiate atmosphere, collegiate i guess academia, that existed before affirmative action. What is his position . What is his position on some of us . Host joe tell us your experience. What youre did you graduate . Where did you go to school . What was it like for you . Caller i graduated in 1959 from Kent State University and the makeup of the school at that time, i guess it was probably around 7000 students which there was no more than a maximum at best 100 minority afroamerican students from ohio and the surrounding area. State rather. But the experience was one of high, a highly competitive environment, that there was no assistance provided to us with respect to Holding Hands and what you might call a mentor. But we were there just to survive, of which we did. So i was wondering what his take would be on that kind of situation that prevailed before affirmative action and in a totally white environment . Guest its a wonderful comment. Of course, its true that africanamericans and other racial minorities attended predominantly white institutions before the onset of affirmative action. They did a much smaller numbers however, as the caller indicated. One of the things affirmativeaction did in the late 60s, the early 70s, was too great larger cadres of racial minorities at these predominantly white institutions. And with the idea of being in mind, again that the desegregation of American Life was simply proceeding too slowly under the old rules, the old regime. As for these circumstances of racial minorities before the advent of affirmative action, i would agree. That history does need to be more known. I think there are good aspects and bad aspects to it. There are plenty of instances plenty of stories of africanamericans and other racial minorities who are predominantly white institutions who did not have the benefit of affirmative action and created wonderful careers for themselves, and what they were able to achieve needs to be saluted. I dont think i think one can say that and also say at the same time, however, that what has occurred over the past several decades has been good. That larger numbers of racial minorities at these institutions has been good but only for themselves but for the country as a whole. Host the nword, ma the persistence of the color line other books written by professor Randall Kennedy. Is the cover of for discrimination race, affirmative action, and the law. Tonia, san diego, good morning to you. You were on with professor Randall Kennedy. Caller good morning. Its an honor to speak to you. I was wondering what you think the president and gym has ignored the fact that the main beneficiary of affirmative action franklin has been white women . Or its always a very interesting experience when my coworkers realize they are the main beneficiaries of affirmative action. Host tonya, do you favor affirmative action laws . Caller idea but i just wish people were more educated on the fact that a lot of people who are getting the benefits of it do not say that theyre getting the benefits of it, and many of them dont even know that because, in my job environment i would say that publicly seven of the 40 people definitely were helped because they were white women, because theyre not as even qualified as some of the black men who try to get the same job. Host thank you, maam trend to i think the caller makes an excellent point. The fact of the matter is that in american lives there and many groups who get all sorts of benefits, sometimes informally sometimes formally. Clearly women. What about all these people who get benefits because their parents happen to go to a particular university legacies for instance . What about the benefits that athletes get as far as im concerned there are probably good reasons for aiding all of these there is a groups. Shouldnt be, nobody should be under the delusion that its only racial minorities that get there is benefits. Farmers get benefits. People increased benefits regions get benefits. What about the fact that Public Institutions theres a tremendous benefit given to same state students as those out of state students . Thats a preference but theres all sorts of preferences, so long as preferences have a good, sensible basis, as far as im concerned they should be allowed. After all, racial affirmative action is nowhere except as a remedy for judicial impose remedy, outside of that. Affirmative action is something that politicians permit. Racial affirmative action is permissive. Its not required. And so if people commit it and its usually the majority that is committing it in any event, it seems to me it should be a loud. If the majority of people in a particular state dont want to have a for instance, the people of california got rid of racial affirmative action. The people in michigan got rid of racial affirmative action but if they want to get rid of it they can. But if people want to have it seems they they should be able to have it. There is good reason to have it as i argue in my book. Host diego, colorado. Diego, im going will have to let that go. I apologize. That connection is not working so we will move on to lynn in parkersburg pennsylvania. Randall kennedy is our guest on booktv. Caller hello, doctor kennedy. As one involved with discrimination and education, are you aware of anyone looking into the fact that all higher, from what i experienced, Higher Education, when you are accepted as astute it is not a contractual agreement . You can complete all requirements for a degree. The entire syllabus with a 4. 0 average, have paid all your tuition, perhaps with government grants. And they can choose whether they feel like giving you your diploma or not. You may not get your diploma. You have no legal recourse. It was not a contractual agreement. So that students have no antidiscrimination protection for graduation and getting a diploma. Therefore, they cant host why do you ask that question . Caller because it happened to me. I could not go out and get a job in my field. And pay back my government loans. So that all these popup i would deliver a Prominent University in philadelphia for a masters to become a teacher for a second career. And, you know, old white women are not host all right. Thank you. Randall kennedy . Guest im really sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation. I must say though that i dont think that youre correct in saying that a student who goes to an institution is without recourse if that institution arbitrarily with holds a diploma. In fact, i think that any student who goes to a public or a private institution in fact does have a contractual relationship with the institution. And if this institution acts arbitrarily i think that they are in breach of contract and are also probably in breach of a whole set of state and federal laws. So if you have been treated arbitrarily by that institution, i would suggest that you consult with a lawyer because i think he would, in fact have recourse. Host professor kennedy because of the nature of your books do you get a lot of people get a lot of people the daily news contacting you this happened to me type cases . Guest i do. With all of my books, ive gotten lots of emails. And, frankly one of the things thats most gratifying about writing my books is that it does trigger telephone calls. It triggers emails. It triggers letters. Obviously, im in no position to help out everyone, but i would say a couple times a year that or people who get in touch with me, or their lawyers get in touch with me and ive been able to assist people. And im very happy about that. Host were you surprised by what happened to your colleague Henry Louis Gates . Guest do you mean the instance where Henry Louis Gates was restless Police Officer . Yes, i was surprised by that. Frankly, here you have this very esteemed, very famous law excuse me University Professor at harvard who was arrested in his own house after proving that it is his own house. This was an instance of reality outdoing anybodys imagination. I mean i wouldnt have thought that up for law school hypothetical. So i was a bit surprised by it but, of course what happened you know, a little bit of an insight about the problems and that africanamericans at every level. He is at the very elite level. He went to the station house in handcuffs. You know, nothing ultimately have happened to them. The charges were dropped, but what about a younger person, lets say, who did not have the resources that he had, a younger person who did not have the resources maybe to become a person who might have gotten angry and might of lashed out at the Police Officer . That sort of case turns out not to be a case where the person is just at the station house for a matter of hours. That is the sort of case that ends up with somebody badly hurt or killed. So the Henry Louis Gates episode was a very sobering episode. Caller hello . Host we are listing. Please go ahead. Caller hello . Can you hear me . Host we are listening. Caller hi. My question host we are going to leave paul. Caller hello . Host youre not quite getting the concept of this. Lets move on to Valley Stream new york and in Valley Stream new york this is caller my comment is simply this. In hearing and not having had s the opportunity to read the s booki i thought how wonderful it is that this has taken place in this country because it solidifies the heart and soul ofsolids th what we like to think america is integrity integrity. That is what i wanted to say. This book calls to mind the patcher itself is about integrity. Guest well thank you very much. I appreciate that. Host professor, if someone were to pick up one of your books, which one would you recommend today . Guest the book that i had the most fun writing the one i had the most time right he was a book called interracial intimacies. Sex, marriage, adoption and identity. It was a book about the way in which the legal system has regulated interracial intimacy over the course of American History. That was my favorite book. The trouble with the book is it is long. It is 600 page is. If i was redoing the book now i would split it into two books. You have to be a rather committed reader to read that entire volume. But for me that was the book that i think is the best everett. Host is a little off your beaten path as law professor, is the net . Guest no, no it is full of law. The first racial laws in america were laws that regulated interracial sex in interracial marriage. And the last of the jim crow laws was the law that prohibited across the baseline, start anonymous at the title case in all of american constitutional law, loving versus the commonwecommonwe alth of virginia. Not another reason i like that book if it goes to an earlier question is whether people get in touch with me because a big portion had to do with interracial adoption. Theres lots of people who read the book and now they were being frustrated by their ability to a drop across the race line and that book made the argument that nobody in the states ought not get in the way of people who want to adopt across the baseline and that book has been used very widely and legislation. It has been used in litigation. It has been used to in courage people to adopt interracially and i am very happy about that. Host Randall Kennedy occurred on a tv in depth program. He discussed his entire body of work and we discussed that one as well. If youd like to watch a threehour program or parts of it go to booktv. Org. In the upper lefthand function function corner is a search function. Watch it online at your leisure. Peter is then used the dough, california. Peter, did i say a right . Caller hi yes. It is california and im honored to be speaking with dr. Randall kennedy this morning. I just had a question. Can you hear me . Host go ahead. Caller yes i wanted to ask, do you believe that affirmative action in great measure to leveling the Playing Field and americans to begin with for africanamericans each of those were turned affirmative action and do you think americans will ever see steep restitution . If not or if so, why . Guest in my view affirmative action is at least in part a type of reparations. I mean, i think therere bunch of reasons and good reasons to support affirmative action. But i think reparations is one of them. Reparative justice. I think this is one way we dont color preparations, but i think it has been a type of reparations and it is entirely justifiable. Host how do you think president obama has been on the issue of race . Guest well he has been a very tough position as the first black president. And i think that being the first black president , he has felt inhibited. I think he is keenly attuned to the feared allegation that he is showing racial favoritism to his people, so to speak. And so i think you sort of bent over backwards to avoid that sort of allegation. Hes in a very difficult position. Obviously, he has lots of opposition. Obviously, he is an historical first. I think when you are an historical first like the great Jackie Robinson in a way barack obama is the Jackie Robinson of the higher echelons of american politics. And just like Jackie Robinson, just like Jackie Robinson had to take it just like Jackie Robinson had to be twice as disciplined as anybody else, had to go for it may be saying some of the things that were on his mind, i think barack obama is in the same position. And that is what happens. So why give him i respect him. I admire him. Has he done everything perfectly . Of course not. That i think a given circumstance is he has done in our world job. Host josh is in carbondale illinois. Josh, go ahead. Guest good morning. Professor kennedy, i read several books and articles. Im a big fan of your work. My question is i have a concern about some of the trends in Higher Education when it comes to affirmative action, were essentially institutions of Higher Learning are really concerned about the racial cheyenne accent diversity of the freshman class. But they are not really tracking and looking at the graduation class. When you look at graduation trends, why students might graduate of 55 from a 60 , and africanamericans might graduate a 25 or 30 . There has been to discussions on things like mismatch theory, which some of them are policies that actually for students of color, African American students, hispanic students into situations they are not yet prepared for. I am interested in hearing some of your comments on not. Host host josh come host josh, are you a College Student . Guest i am a college professor. Host what you teach . Guest caller intercultural communication. Guest first of all that is a nice point of getting into an institution. And graduating for destitution. They arent have to be a tennis to off assets and off assets of collegiate life. College is seen to be falling down and not attending to the needs of the students. We need to be attentive to that. Do i think affirmative action is going to change over time quite sure, affirmative action is going to change over time. The demographics of america change over time and with a change in demographics we are going to see changes in affirmative action. Very intelligent people who want to tweet affirmative action in various ways. One for instance to be more attentive to the issues of class. I welcome that. I think we should be experimental. I dont think that because something has worked well in the past we should leave it alone. We should always be reexamining. So i havent favor of racial affirmativeaction. At the same time we should be reexamining our policies. One of the things we should take into account is the very issue we make. Host Martin Luther king without regard to race or color. Did i quote him correctly . Guest you know Martin Luther king jr. It seems to me, is often misunderstood on this. There were certain things he said for instance, his great i have a dream speech, in which i live in a society in which my children will be as fast on the basis of their character, not their color. That sounds like quote color blindness. At the same time i say the number of times in my book, martin at the king junior stated on many occasions been insofar as black people have been held down, there needs to be special efforts to assist them in elevating themselves. So Martin Luther king jr. Was in fact, in his own time a proponent of what we now call affirmative action. Host Randall Kennedy is standing out here in the miami heat with us. We appreciate that very much. Weve got more phone calls if you would like. Guest absolutely. Host marcel in goodyear, arizona. Marcel. Caller thank you mr. Kennedy. I have one question for you. Do you think it has benefited the africanamerican people at all . I work for the federal government and i see the federal government is the biggest violation of racism. You know when i am when i am there working and i see the number of africanamericans employed by the federal government, if youre in washington d. C. Or baltimore area, theres a lot more africanamericans that are promoted up in hierarchy positions. But if you go maybe to the south and the west, that is not the case. So as out here on the west kind of struggle with the fact that in city government, federal government, we are not getting promoted to the level we should be. We are very capable people with College Degrees and people come in have been in the system one or two years and make it over us. Guest a couple of things. Number one its really a huge huge, huge country. You know different parts of the country i am sure there are Different Levels of affirmative action. Inside different in different places. Affirmative action by and large has beneficial not only to africanamericans but countries as a whole. Having said that ive said several times in the past half hour. Its not like affirmativeaction is a great panacea. Its not like affirmative action is to the great cureall. Affirmative action is going to only be helpful to people who get into college in the first place. Frankly, if you are a plausible candidate for college you are already doing pretty well. One problem frankly is it tends to how people who are already doing pretty well. Affirmative action does not help in a strong way people further down on the socioeconomic ladder. Before that we need other programs. So while in favor of affirmative action i dont affirmativeaction can do the whole thing. Its one of many things that has helped america get older some of these inequities in American History and some of the current inequities. Host glee in rockville maryland. Good afternoon. Caller gas, good morning, professor kennedy. Enjoy the show. Professor, i would like to ask you something. I live in rockville, maryland rapier washington d. C. And like most people many people the Washington Area work for the federal government. I was perusing the vacancy announcements. I applied for this job at the Government Agency that i work for and i got an interview in a few months late i got a letter back saying thank you for applying. Weve selected someone else. And then in the newsletter, the agency newsletter, they had the announcement of the position being filled. The woman that got the job was an africanamerican woman with no College Degree no College Degree. I of course have a bachelors degree from a very Good University a masters degree in Business Administration from a very Good University. Im also an adjunct professor of one of the local communities in the maryland suburbs. This woman who did not have College Degree in opposition. I was wondering how they could defend affirmative action. When this thing goes on. Do you believe in easter by nancy in a cause. This goes all the time. Host lee ill tell you why. Stay on the line. Lets hear from professor kennedy and we will let you give a quick response. Guest number one i defend affirmative action in principle. I do not defend affirmative action in every instance. I am quite sure there are mistakes made. And there are some places that have done that teams. Any other programs. I will not expand in every other instance. It may very well be the episode you just mentioned is terrible and if that is the case, that is very bad. At the same time, i dont think that you can use an instance or give me 20 instances. This is a huge country. It was a huge country, a program that involves many tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people 50 instance is not characteristic of the way affirmative action has been practiced across American Life. So i found something is askew here. This is a sort of thing that can actually discredit affirmativeaction and that is bad. You cant expect of a policy that it will be perfectly done or even satisfactorily done in every instance. Host lee, very quick response. Caller i understand your point. But anytime you start judging people on the basis of the color of their skin and not on the content of their character like Martin Luther king said. You are asking for trouble. Youre asking for trouble. That is all i have to say. Host guest okay let me respond by saying Martin Luther king jr. , you just alluded to Martin Luther king jr. Take a look at my book. And make a big deal of this because again, Martin Luther king jr. Is often cited as a person whose ideas were against affirmativeaction. Martin luther king jr. Said expressly that reparative justice demands the special efforts be made on those who have been kept out of American Life. The fact of the matter is across america, i could give you many instances of people who occupy positions in government who occupy positions in educational whatsit tuitions high and low who would not have occupied those positions but for affirmativeaction. They got in because of affirmative because of affirmativeaction and they have been important, positive contributors to American Life. Caller yes thank you for taking my call. Its been affected as you see berkeley after high school. My question to dr. Kennedy is not far i think i got his name right who understand is totally against affirmativeaction. In my book i talk about a leading antiaffirmative activist. I disagree very strongly with connolly and make my arguments against his arguments. Now, i want to say i argue strongly in favor of affirmativeaction. At the same time there are people who i think are perfectly good people perfectly reasonable people who disagree with me. You know i dont think that people who arent not all people in the affirmativeaction in my view are unreasonable or evil or anything like that. We are talking about a Public Policy about which people can agree and disagree. I think there are people who are sincere sleigh against racial oppression who want to elevate america to a higher level who is against affirmativeaction because they think that the drawbacks of affirmativeaction outweigh the benefits of affirmativeaction. I disagree with them but i want to caution people against thinking that anybody who disagrees with this point of view has to be malevolent or has to be ignorant. I dont believe that. Host what is your take on what is happening in ferguson . Guest my take on what is happening as ferguson is that it is an american tragedy. Its terrible. It shows one of the great weaknesses in the american legal system which is lack of regulation of the police. Now, that should have been evident before ferguson. It is evident today after ferguson that a nation that prizes itself on being lawabiding needs to be much more attentive to regulating the agent of the government that most people come into contact with day in and day out. We are talking about people who have guns on their hips and the authority to use those guns and our legal system does a very bad job of policing the police. For me, that is certainly one of the sobering lessons of ferguson. Host so the grand jury doesnt indict . Guest i would say frankly it grand jury indicts or does not indict, my scheme that would remain free of the same. In any event whatever happens in ferguson, we have a problem across the United States. Its not a regional problem. It is a National Problem at every level the police are not held sufficiently to account and that poses a danger to all americans. Host three more calls. Youve been very patient out here in the miami heat. Rene is in dallas. Caller hello hi mr. Kennedy professor kennedy excuse me. I am actually calling about. I am actually calling about one case that i have the luxury of sitting in on. It was out in san antonio texas. It involves a young man whos never been in trouble before, part of a fraternity, and it was an incident from the uncle in the military never been in trouble before but was very dicey to a captain or something of that store. It was an incident where he got angry at the wife. On the military base unfortunately decided afterwards to go ahead and go when she was incarcerated. You know he called out to a nephew who of course has never been in trouble before. The family also military. And ended up being incarcerated or trusted because he had gone to the aid of this uncle. Once he had gone to the uncle, a lot of the information that exchanged because the sad story of okay, i have this one wife that was unfaithful. So needless to say host bnai, this is getting a little bit complicated for a callin program. Can you cut to the chase for the add . Caller im so sorry. Ill go ahead and cut to the chase. Needless to say needless to say, this is a young man that was a folk star and had allwhite jury and thats no offense to anyone. All white jury. The jury found this particular kid guilty of conspiracy to shoot or kill. Forgive me. I dont know the legal terms. Host okay, you know what i am sorry. We are going to have to let you go. I think thats going to go on a little bit long. Any response, do you know where shes going with this . Guest im not altogether sure. The fact of the matter is the administration of criminal justice, the subject of my first book is still in the area of the racial context is very unsatisfactory. We need as a society to reevaluate how we punish people commend the extent to which we punish people. We live in a society in my view which is just hyper punitive. And we are wasting unnecessarily theyre some people who do terrible things. We need to be protected. Some people i really dangerous enemy to be protected against dangerous people. On the other hand we have in our prisons for far too long people who really represent the danger. This is an area that really bags for more study and for reform. Host what do you tell your kids . What do you tell your kids about interactions with race . Guest i have two boys. I have two boys and a girl. And i have had a talk that black people have had. Unfortunately, i have told my children that they should be respectful to police. The police have a difficult job. In my life i usually had good interaction with the police. On the other hand anybody who reads the newspaper knows that black young man argued differently than others by police. And by the way police of all backgrounds. Im not just talking about by police. Im talking about lack police too. Not only are they viewed as relayed by police, but as a matter of policy. So i told my sons that they have to be on their peas and keys. I told them that they should be respectful. I told them that if they are approached, if they are, you know, if the Police Stopped them, they should not argue that they should do what they are told. Even if they are being treated wrongly, be quiet just do what you are told. And something bad happens and a porch light the legal system is not going to do much to assist you. That is a sobering fact of life and is a fact of life that i have conveyed to my boys on a number of occasions. Host all right. Ron in harbor city california. They get quake. We are running out of time. Caller quick is good. I just wondered what your opinion would be about the president who is african, but he is way. And the one thing the people he sees one person with reverend al sharpton. They came from slavery. But the president didnt. He has no connection with slavery. I want to know do you think thats how he got to be president in the sense that he beat hillary and that is what really happened to hillary. Host anything you would like to respond to their . Guest yeah, the caller makes a good point. My book before this one was the persistence of the things i point out is barack obama made a fateful decision about a young adult and that is what did he have to do himself. He could have called themselves many innings. He couldve called himself a variety of things. He decided to continue himself an African American or black. It is found that identity that he advanced his lies and that is what most people see a nonce. Guest before i go let me say how happy i have to be on the show with you and how great a service that you provide. Thank you. Host one more call. Drinks are without water please. You have been standing out here for an hour in the heat with us. Domaine carlton, texas. Youve got the last word. Caller im so sorry to hear the parity that went before me about the importance of Immigration Reform in states like texas that have been making legislation through the judicial system. Also, if you could use the analogy of little steps made by small feat. Guest okay, on immigration, you know im not an expert about everything and im going to leave that one alone because i dont really have anything i think particularly learned to say about it. On the point about important steps being made by little feat, im not quite sure what the caller had in mind but my interpretation of what she said is that theres something for all of us to do and that everybody no matter where they are, can take steps that advance our society upwards. Im a big believer in that. I think that all of us no matter where we are situated no matter what our occupation is, there are things day by day that can be done to better not only ourselves but better our neighbors better our society as a whole. And frankly its the secretion of those small steps that make a huge difference over time. Host whats the next book treachery im writing a book, a legal history of the civil rights revolution. And thats going to be a big book. Its going to take a while to complete complete, but im having a lot of fun doing it. One of the reasons why im having a lot of fun doing it has to do with the last caller support. I get tremendous inspiration in doing research about the Civil Rights Movement precisely because so many people, very modest people very modest people did things day by day that has major huge difference. So this is a book about a do i have a smile on my face. It really is inspiring, and i want to tell their story so thats my next book. Host Randall Kennedy, if you want to watch any of his previous times on booktv go to booktv debt or search function up her left hand corner, typing his name. Weve covered several of his books on booktv. As always thank you. Guest thanks very much. Eric lichtblau is next on booktv. He recalls the influx of nazis who entered the United States following world war ii and reports that many of these men were granted clearance by the u. S. Government who employed him as a scientist, Intelligence Officers engineers and spies. This is about one hour. We